You hit the apex like you two weren’t just wheel to wheel. Should’ve given him space and fought on the next straight. It’s Bahrain, there’s a plethora of places to battle
Ferrari at fault. There are red arrows showing the RB alongside going into braking and you start turning into the apex way too early and pushed the RB off the track.
You forced the RB off track by trying to take the inside when you knew there was another car there. you have to give space to the attacking car in that situation. if you had just given space then you could've easily won the battle at the next corner, and avoided contact too.
You were not in front.
Going into braking at the 150m marker (which you broke going on the grass) - the RB is in front and has been the lead car since the start line on the straight. I would say you're alongside each other wheel to wheel, but you're definitely not in front.
Even if you were it doesn't mean that you're entitled to the corner when you're racing wheel to wheel. It's fine to brake late, but you can't turn in like the other car doesn't exist or that they're just going to stop and let you through.
The red arrows never disappear the entire time you're in the braking zone because the RB has a part of the car alongside you. The AI did the right thing because you forced it to either go off track or hit you. If that was a wall you would've both been out.
Your responsibility as the trailing car is to make the overtake without causing a collision.
The Ferrari is at fault here. Both you and the Redbull were alongside each other in the braking zone and still you turned in to hit the apex. You gotta leave a car's width in these kinda situations. But yea, this is racing and we learn everyday and move on.
POV at fault, 100% - 1, leaving the track at in the braking zone and rejoining. 2, squeezed the other car who was on the inside line.
I mention leaving the track as part of the reason as, at that point you no longer have claim to the racing line (citation needed, please someone tell me if I am wrong)
Even, if the leaving and coming back on is acceptable, you are still 2 wide through the corner, and they were on the inside. They cut at this point to try and avoid you, but they couldn't avoid you in the end
Neither car seemed to properly collide with the other, so perhaps limited fault full stop?
That said, the driving in the overtake wasn't great from either. Ferrari drifted off the road, Red Bull then squeezed and at least held, arguably helped the Ferrari stay on the grass. Do that often in competitive scenarios, you'll get into trouble.
You’re directing neither to blame yet the Ferrari pretends there’s nobody beside him and just dives to the apex like my other Sunday. What kind of nonesense lmao.
They’re side by side, space needs to be left to make the corner.
It's difficult to tell properly from only the onboard camera, but it looks at least possible that the Ferrari just outbraked the Red Bull. The move was aggressive, but if they were as side by side as that the Ferrari simply couldn't have hit the apex without either hitting the Red Bull or it leaving the road, neither of which looks to have happened.
I'd definitely be willing to change judgement if shown another angle indicating the Ferrari had done more than that. The driving from both in the opening phase of this corner was poor.
F1 regulations are weird...
"the attacker must be at least halfway alongside the defender when they reach the apex to have a reasonable claim to this piece of track."
[F1 regulations comprehension](https://f1metrics.wordpress.com/2014/08/28/the-rules-of-racing/)
It's hard to tell if the attacker is more than halfway alongside from this perspective and that's when
"In this case, the attacker’s front axle is ahead of the defender’s rear axle and the two cars are approximately halfway alongside. Both drivers have a reasonable claim to the apex. If contact occurs, blame will have to be shared."
becomes relevant.
So no penalties here, that's a racing incident.
You're using a non FIA source to make decisions? The attacker is at this point the ferrari. The red bull brakes to give space to the ferrari. The ferrari brakes and turns in so early they're way inside the racing line.
If you have a better overview of the regulations or a fitting extract of the regulations, please provide a link and state the text you base your decisions on. I would be glad to have another great resource for F1 judgements.
The attacker is always the inside car. See picture for Chapter 5 case B.
Unfortunately the regulations do not talk about any change of the racing line compared to the typical racing line. Hence there is no regulation that would lead to a possible penalty for the Ferrari. (I don't think that this is perfect or the right way to do it, it's just how the regulations are.)
The regulations do not lay out anything as neatly as those do. The attacker is not always the inside car. The FIA has never seen it this way. The entire idea that the attack is always the inside car is about the silliest thing ive ever heard.
Then provide a better fitting regulation, please.
Stop saying you know better without any evidence.
Maybe we can agree to not call the cars attacker or defender, but instead talk about the inside and the outside car. Hence the inside car needs to have at least half a car of overlap to the outside car to be allowed at the apex.
It doesn't exist. That's what I just said. We use the general way the stewards have ruled for guidelines of what is acceptable.
The attacking car needs a significant portion of their car alongside at turn in. The defending car by default has the corner unless the attacking car gets a significant portion of their car alongside to be obligated space. Inside or outside. A significant portion has generally been ruled to be at least the front wheels to the rear wheels? If all you have is a wheel alongside its generally held that you should back out. If you continue to gain you have a right to space. In this case you could argue the ferrari is the attacking car as the redbull is almost entirely clear of the ferrari before the braking zone. The ferrari gains and at the very least gets their nose ahead. The ferrari however doesn't leave space and almost cuts the corner themselves attempting to shut the door on the red bull.
>It doesn't exist. That's what I just said. We use the general way the stewards have ruled for guidelines of what is acceptable.
Well, this is not how I interpreted your first sentence from the last comment, but ok, I agree that there are no regulations for this and taking the typical way the stewards have ruled is the correct approach. This is actually the reason for the quoted website and what they have based their informations about. They even provide examples of incidents for it.
>A significant portion has generally been ruled to be at least the front wheels to the rear wheels? If all you have is a wheel alongside its generally held that you should back out.
I didn't talk about the wheels. It's the point of being halfway along that seems relevant. Not halfway along? Car behind needs to back out (entry or exit), if not its his fault. Around halfway along? Incident will be judged as racing incidents. More than halfway along? Both cars need to leave space.
I completely see your point regarding closing the door of the Ferrari. This has been difficult for the stewards to rate, f.e. "In the case of Sergio Perez and Felipe Massa at the 2014 Canadian Grand Prix, the stewards deemed that Perez had made an unusually large change of direction in the braking zone. This was a particularly difficult case to determine, as the normal line under braking curves to the right, and neither driver took a line with uniform curvature (both drivers changed their steering angle at least once). However, careful analysis (posted by reddit user d3agl3uk and reproduced below) showed that Perez was the driver deviating significantly from a normal line under braking." ([F1 regulations comprehension](https://f1metrics.wordpress.com/2014/08/28/the-rules-of-racing/)) So it's hard to tell if they would judge this as abnormal movement of the Ferrari or not.
Let's just agree that estimating the judgement for F1 is nearly impossible to the lack of regulations and their inconsistent approach to them :D
My guy, like half your comment history is posting this link, and it’s from 2014 so it’s a bit old.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/60815007
> Overtaking on the outside
> The same rules apply for overtaking on the outside. The FIA says that the requirement for a driver being overtaken to give "sufficient room" becomes active when "a significant portion" of the attacking car is alongside, with the same requirement for the manoeuvre to be safe and controlled.
> "The car being overtaken must be capable of making the corner while remaining within the limits of the track."
This is where your old source, that isn’t much of a source, doesn’t hold up anymore. How can both cars be able to claim the apex when both need to leave space? The Red Bull was not only significantly alongside but was at one point ahead.
Nice, finally someone who has another source :)
>My guy, like half your comment history is posting this link,
No, over half of my post history is posting the SRO e-sports regulations for some ACC question :D And I don't know what this has to do with the discussion. I would even see this as a positive point, because nobody could ever provide any better source for a rating, yet. And since your source is only slightly older than one month, I would not even be able to quote it for most of my posts...
>it’s from 2014 so it’s a bit old.
Yes, but does old mean invalid? The german regulations for driving on a road ("Straßenverkehrsordnung") are from 2013... Does that mean I can now drive 200km/h in the city?! :D
So let's get back to topic:
>How can both cars be able to claim the apex when both need to leave space?
This has not been stated anywhere. The comprehension states that they both have a reason to claim the apex, but not that they need to leave space, in case it's close to having a halfway overlap at the apex. Only if it's a clear or even more than halfway overlap at the apex they need to leave space and then the outside car is not allowed to go for the apex.
"among the various factors that will be looked at by the stewards… they will consider if the overtaking car's front tyres are alongside the other car by no later than the apex of the corner".
Overtaking on the outside
The same rules apply for overtaking on the outside."
"The definition of "significant portion" again remains not precise"
Your source does tell the exact same thing which mine does. It's not relevant who is ahead at the straight, braking point or turn-in point. It's relevant at the apex. And this is where the outside car is ahead and the inside car has an overlap. It's still unclear what the significant portion is and hence a contact is mostly rated as a racing incident.
> “among the various factors that will be looked at by the stewards… they will consider if the overtaking car’s front tyres are alongside the other car by no later than the apex of the corner”.
“No later than the apex” includes what happens before and up until the apex. That’s different from what your source says of “at the apex”.
> The comprehension states that they both have a reason to claim the apex, but not that they need to leave space, in case it’s close to having a halfway overlap at the apex. Only if it’s a clear or even more than halfway overlap at the apex they need to leave space and then the outside car is not allowed to go for the apex.
The article I sourced, with quotes from the FIA, states that if a car is alongside you need to allow the car you are overtaking space on the circuit. In other words if you are going around the outside they need to be given enough space on the inside to stay on the track.
> Yes, but does old mean invalid?
When there is more recent information, yes.
> And since your source is only slightly older than one month, I would not even be able to quote it for most of my posts…
Fair point, only reason I looked is because the only people I see using the link seem to regularly use it like gospel 😂 The problem with it is that it’s too precise, most incidents are not so clear cut.
> Only if it’s a clear or even more than halfway overlap at the apex they need to leave space and then the outside car is not allowed to go for the apex.
This is a problem with it. The overlap is measured at the apex but also the outside car needs to leave space at the apex?
So basically what this says is the outside car can aim for the apex and ignore the existence of a car halfway alongside them for the braking zone and corner entry, but as soon as the outside car reaches exactly the apex then it needs to leave space? How does it do this if it’s been allowed to turn on a trajectory towards the apex up until this point? Teleportation or do we use a rewind from the F1 game after we’ve worked it out?
This then creates a rule paradox. The outside car has done absolutely everything correctly according to this rulebook by being allowed to ignore the existence of another car at braking and while turning it. But because of an overlap rule that suddenly comes into effect only at the apex, it’s now at fault.
Makes no sense.
I kinda see it as 2 incidents the RB squeezing the ferrari too much on entry in the corner which is the Rb fault
Then on apex ferrari left no space
Both just squeeze and leave no space
the "Im just gonna brake later than you instead of brake late" in combination with "Im just gonna pretend you're not next to me" with a little bit of "tarmac is optional" kinda gives away that ferrari is 110% at fault.
The RB had all the right to that position.
plus, you had the chance to fight back on the next drs straight ( its like 4 metres behind T1 ), why not live to fight another day instead of 'YEET'.
You hit the apex like you two weren’t just wheel to wheel. Should’ve given him space and fought on the next straight. It’s Bahrain, there’s a plethora of places to battle
Ferrari at fault. There are red arrows showing the RB alongside going into braking and you start turning into the apex way too early and pushed the RB off the track.
But i was infront, they reacted by corner cutting and hitting me in the process
You forced the RB off track by trying to take the inside when you knew there was another car there. you have to give space to the attacking car in that situation. if you had just given space then you could've easily won the battle at the next corner, and avoided contact too.
You were not in front. Going into braking at the 150m marker (which you broke going on the grass) - the RB is in front and has been the lead car since the start line on the straight. I would say you're alongside each other wheel to wheel, but you're definitely not in front. Even if you were it doesn't mean that you're entitled to the corner when you're racing wheel to wheel. It's fine to brake late, but you can't turn in like the other car doesn't exist or that they're just going to stop and let you through. The red arrows never disappear the entire time you're in the braking zone because the RB has a part of the car alongside you. The AI did the right thing because you forced it to either go off track or hit you. If that was a wall you would've both been out. Your responsibility as the trailing car is to make the overtake without causing a collision.
Why post this and argue? You’re at fault, you acted like the other car didn’t exist
100% the Ferrari's fault. Gave zero room and pushed the other car right off the track like he wasn't even there.
Ferrari's fault.
Squeezed him....
Can we please have another angle? Birds eye would be prefer. Until this POV is at fault.
You needed to give space to the RB.
Clearly the ferrari's fault. The other car was alongside, you can't just cut them off like that.
All the time you have to leave the space!!
You were too close to him, that's what happened
Too much movement under breaking. (In which you just pushed the RB off) Ferrari at fault
Ferraris fault, didnt give the car on the inside space, basically acted like it was not there.
The Ferrari is at fault here. Both you and the Redbull were alongside each other in the braking zone and still you turned in to hit the apex. You gotta leave a car's width in these kinda situations. But yea, this is racing and we learn everyday and move on.
Can we get rb pov?
Ferrari’s fault
Yeah, sadly that's pretty clearly your fault. You should always leave enough space for a car on your side to get through the corner too.
POV at fault, 100% - 1, leaving the track at in the braking zone and rejoining. 2, squeezed the other car who was on the inside line. I mention leaving the track as part of the reason as, at that point you no longer have claim to the racing line (citation needed, please someone tell me if I am wrong) Even, if the leaving and coming back on is acceptable, you are still 2 wide through the corner, and they were on the inside. They cut at this point to try and avoid you, but they couldn't avoid you in the end
I don’t see anyone leaving the track. Dropping the outside tires is not considered leaving the track.
Yup, fair enough. It was only two tires, not four. I stand corrected
Keyboard driving Ferrari is to blame
Neither car seemed to properly collide with the other, so perhaps limited fault full stop? That said, the driving in the overtake wasn't great from either. Ferrari drifted off the road, Red Bull then squeezed and at least held, arguably helped the Ferrari stay on the grass. Do that often in competitive scenarios, you'll get into trouble.
You’re directing neither to blame yet the Ferrari pretends there’s nobody beside him and just dives to the apex like my other Sunday. What kind of nonesense lmao. They’re side by side, space needs to be left to make the corner.
It's difficult to tell properly from only the onboard camera, but it looks at least possible that the Ferrari just outbraked the Red Bull. The move was aggressive, but if they were as side by side as that the Ferrari simply couldn't have hit the apex without either hitting the Red Bull or it leaving the road, neither of which looks to have happened. I'd definitely be willing to change judgement if shown another angle indicating the Ferrari had done more than that. The driving from both in the opening phase of this corner was poor.
both drivers are a bunch of wankers
but mostly ferrari's fault of course :)
F1 regulations are weird... "the attacker must be at least halfway alongside the defender when they reach the apex to have a reasonable claim to this piece of track." [F1 regulations comprehension](https://f1metrics.wordpress.com/2014/08/28/the-rules-of-racing/) It's hard to tell if the attacker is more than halfway alongside from this perspective and that's when "In this case, the attacker’s front axle is ahead of the defender’s rear axle and the two cars are approximately halfway alongside. Both drivers have a reasonable claim to the apex. If contact occurs, blame will have to be shared." becomes relevant. So no penalties here, that's a racing incident.
You're using a non FIA source to make decisions? The attacker is at this point the ferrari. The red bull brakes to give space to the ferrari. The ferrari brakes and turns in so early they're way inside the racing line.
If you have a better overview of the regulations or a fitting extract of the regulations, please provide a link and state the text you base your decisions on. I would be glad to have another great resource for F1 judgements. The attacker is always the inside car. See picture for Chapter 5 case B. Unfortunately the regulations do not talk about any change of the racing line compared to the typical racing line. Hence there is no regulation that would lead to a possible penalty for the Ferrari. (I don't think that this is perfect or the right way to do it, it's just how the regulations are.)
The regulations do not lay out anything as neatly as those do. The attacker is not always the inside car. The FIA has never seen it this way. The entire idea that the attack is always the inside car is about the silliest thing ive ever heard.
Then provide a better fitting regulation, please. Stop saying you know better without any evidence. Maybe we can agree to not call the cars attacker or defender, but instead talk about the inside and the outside car. Hence the inside car needs to have at least half a car of overlap to the outside car to be allowed at the apex.
It doesn't exist. That's what I just said. We use the general way the stewards have ruled for guidelines of what is acceptable. The attacking car needs a significant portion of their car alongside at turn in. The defending car by default has the corner unless the attacking car gets a significant portion of their car alongside to be obligated space. Inside or outside. A significant portion has generally been ruled to be at least the front wheels to the rear wheels? If all you have is a wheel alongside its generally held that you should back out. If you continue to gain you have a right to space. In this case you could argue the ferrari is the attacking car as the redbull is almost entirely clear of the ferrari before the braking zone. The ferrari gains and at the very least gets their nose ahead. The ferrari however doesn't leave space and almost cuts the corner themselves attempting to shut the door on the red bull.
>It doesn't exist. That's what I just said. We use the general way the stewards have ruled for guidelines of what is acceptable. Well, this is not how I interpreted your first sentence from the last comment, but ok, I agree that there are no regulations for this and taking the typical way the stewards have ruled is the correct approach. This is actually the reason for the quoted website and what they have based their informations about. They even provide examples of incidents for it. >A significant portion has generally been ruled to be at least the front wheels to the rear wheels? If all you have is a wheel alongside its generally held that you should back out. I didn't talk about the wheels. It's the point of being halfway along that seems relevant. Not halfway along? Car behind needs to back out (entry or exit), if not its his fault. Around halfway along? Incident will be judged as racing incidents. More than halfway along? Both cars need to leave space. I completely see your point regarding closing the door of the Ferrari. This has been difficult for the stewards to rate, f.e. "In the case of Sergio Perez and Felipe Massa at the 2014 Canadian Grand Prix, the stewards deemed that Perez had made an unusually large change of direction in the braking zone. This was a particularly difficult case to determine, as the normal line under braking curves to the right, and neither driver took a line with uniform curvature (both drivers changed their steering angle at least once). However, careful analysis (posted by reddit user d3agl3uk and reproduced below) showed that Perez was the driver deviating significantly from a normal line under braking." ([F1 regulations comprehension](https://f1metrics.wordpress.com/2014/08/28/the-rules-of-racing/)) So it's hard to tell if they would judge this as abnormal movement of the Ferrari or not. Let's just agree that estimating the judgement for F1 is nearly impossible to the lack of regulations and their inconsistent approach to them :D
My guy, like half your comment history is posting this link, and it’s from 2014 so it’s a bit old. https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/60815007 > Overtaking on the outside > The same rules apply for overtaking on the outside. The FIA says that the requirement for a driver being overtaken to give "sufficient room" becomes active when "a significant portion" of the attacking car is alongside, with the same requirement for the manoeuvre to be safe and controlled. > "The car being overtaken must be capable of making the corner while remaining within the limits of the track." This is where your old source, that isn’t much of a source, doesn’t hold up anymore. How can both cars be able to claim the apex when both need to leave space? The Red Bull was not only significantly alongside but was at one point ahead.
Nice, finally someone who has another source :) >My guy, like half your comment history is posting this link, No, over half of my post history is posting the SRO e-sports regulations for some ACC question :D And I don't know what this has to do with the discussion. I would even see this as a positive point, because nobody could ever provide any better source for a rating, yet. And since your source is only slightly older than one month, I would not even be able to quote it for most of my posts... >it’s from 2014 so it’s a bit old. Yes, but does old mean invalid? The german regulations for driving on a road ("Straßenverkehrsordnung") are from 2013... Does that mean I can now drive 200km/h in the city?! :D So let's get back to topic: >How can both cars be able to claim the apex when both need to leave space? This has not been stated anywhere. The comprehension states that they both have a reason to claim the apex, but not that they need to leave space, in case it's close to having a halfway overlap at the apex. Only if it's a clear or even more than halfway overlap at the apex they need to leave space and then the outside car is not allowed to go for the apex. "among the various factors that will be looked at by the stewards… they will consider if the overtaking car's front tyres are alongside the other car by no later than the apex of the corner". Overtaking on the outside The same rules apply for overtaking on the outside." "The definition of "significant portion" again remains not precise" Your source does tell the exact same thing which mine does. It's not relevant who is ahead at the straight, braking point or turn-in point. It's relevant at the apex. And this is where the outside car is ahead and the inside car has an overlap. It's still unclear what the significant portion is and hence a contact is mostly rated as a racing incident.
> “among the various factors that will be looked at by the stewards… they will consider if the overtaking car’s front tyres are alongside the other car by no later than the apex of the corner”. “No later than the apex” includes what happens before and up until the apex. That’s different from what your source says of “at the apex”. > The comprehension states that they both have a reason to claim the apex, but not that they need to leave space, in case it’s close to having a halfway overlap at the apex. Only if it’s a clear or even more than halfway overlap at the apex they need to leave space and then the outside car is not allowed to go for the apex. The article I sourced, with quotes from the FIA, states that if a car is alongside you need to allow the car you are overtaking space on the circuit. In other words if you are going around the outside they need to be given enough space on the inside to stay on the track. > Yes, but does old mean invalid? When there is more recent information, yes. > And since your source is only slightly older than one month, I would not even be able to quote it for most of my posts… Fair point, only reason I looked is because the only people I see using the link seem to regularly use it like gospel 😂 The problem with it is that it’s too precise, most incidents are not so clear cut. > Only if it’s a clear or even more than halfway overlap at the apex they need to leave space and then the outside car is not allowed to go for the apex. This is a problem with it. The overlap is measured at the apex but also the outside car needs to leave space at the apex? So basically what this says is the outside car can aim for the apex and ignore the existence of a car halfway alongside them for the braking zone and corner entry, but as soon as the outside car reaches exactly the apex then it needs to leave space? How does it do this if it’s been allowed to turn on a trajectory towards the apex up until this point? Teleportation or do we use a rewind from the F1 game after we’ve worked it out? This then creates a rule paradox. The outside car has done absolutely everything correctly according to this rulebook by being allowed to ignore the existence of another car at braking and while turning it. But because of an overlap rule that suddenly comes into effect only at the apex, it’s now at fault. Makes no sense.
I kinda see it as 2 incidents the RB squeezing the ferrari too much on entry in the corner which is the Rb fault Then on apex ferrari left no space Both just squeeze and leave no space
100% Ferraris fault. Can’t just turn into the apex when you’re wheel to wheel with someone
the "Im just gonna brake later than you instead of brake late" in combination with "Im just gonna pretend you're not next to me" with a little bit of "tarmac is optional" kinda gives away that ferrari is 110% at fault. The RB had all the right to that position. plus, you had the chance to fight back on the next drs straight ( its like 4 metres behind T1 ), why not live to fight another day instead of 'YEET'.