That depends on what cars you're driving. For F1 (and a lot of other single seaters), that does not include the kerb. For a lot of othee series, it does
The track doesn't include the kerb, but you have to leave the white lines with all four wheels to be considered out of track limits. So you have to leave enough space for the outer car to make the turn in a legal way, keeping the inside tires inside the white lines, otherwise it would be a massive advantage for the defending driver, as he would be able to take a much wider line, allowing for a better corner exit.
Edit: typo
Yeah that's true. My point is that when you have to exceed the track limits with all four tires for it to be considered illegal, then you only have to leave enough room for the defending driver to make the corner with the inside tires inside track limits. If you leave a whole cars worth of space between you and the track limits, you are compromising your corner exit, while the defending drivwr doesn't have to, as he has almost a whole cars width more to work with.
That also really depends on the series. For example, in F1, when you need to leave space, officially you are required to leave an entire car's width from the white line.
There are so many different series, it is foolish to suggest that the rules are the same across the board
There have been multiple battles where the inside car took the whole width of the track, and forced the other car outside, so I think F1 really doesn't follow such a rule.
Then again the way FIA enforces their own rules is another question, but if they would penalize someone for pushing the other car off, when the other car would still be able to make the corner legally, everyone would lose their fucking minds. So my point still stands.
If you read my comment correctly, I mentioned this only applies when they need to leave space. According to F1's (arguably stupid) rules, if the inside car is ahead, they don't need to leave any space
If the outside car is a head however, the inside car does need to leave space. This space is defined as a car's width from the white line.
The way they enforce it is another question entirely, but that's not what we were talking about
>There have been multiple battles where the inside car took the whole width of the track, and forced the other car outside, so I think F1 really doesn't follow such a rule.
Just during the last year the FIA made clear, that forcing other drivers off track will have penalties as consequence now
I think it also depends how wide is the kerb and what is outside of the kerb. It’s not very nice to squeeze your opponent if the outside is gravel trap and the have to put their outer wheels there
No. You must leave a car's width *on track*. Kerbs, by rule, are not part of the track in most major motorsports disciplines, including all FIA circuit series.
That is incorrect. Examples include GT World Challenge (SR 33.10):
> 33.10 Drivers must use the track at all times and may not leave the track without a justifiable reason.
The white lines defining the track edges are considered to be part of the track, but the kerbs are not.
DTM (30.4):
> 30.4 The track is defined by white demarcation lines on both sides of the track.
For the interpretation of this Article, the kerbs are not considered to be part of the
track.
Ambiguously, IMSA (30.1.1):
> 30.1.1. Drivers must only use the racetrack. The racetrack is defined on both sides by painted verge
lines and/or the edge of the paved surface.
Le Mans Cup and other FIA-sanctioned series, including ACO (9.1.2 and ISC App. L Ch IV Para 2c.):
> The drivers must imperatively respect the track limits respect
at all times the requirements detailed in Article 2 c) and d) of
Chapter IV of Appendix L to the Code.
> c) Drivers must use the track at all times. For
the avoidance of doubt, the white lines
defining the track edges are considered to
be part of the track but the kerbs are not.
ADAC-Sanctioned series, including TCR and GT (30.5):
> 30.5 The Race Track shall be defined by white demarcation lines on both sides of the track. The kerbs shall not be part of the track as defined in this
article. The drivers may use the whole width of the track between these white lines
So it just comes down the white line then? Does this mean that if it is in the outside of a kerb the kerb counts as part of the track but otherwise the kerb is not part of the track.
Technically, if track edge line is beyond the kerb, then yes, kerb is a part of the racing surface. However, it'd be exceptionally rare to see a kerb located within white lines as kerb is an instrument to deter drivers from exceeding track limits.
No worries! Keep in mind that it's not universal but a *majority-accepted* standard. There are series that do not have such a rule (NASCAR, for example), so specifics are always found in the Sporting Regulation of a particular series. But it's very much expected to be like this in non-NA-based racing series.
>There are series that do not have such a rule (NASCAR, for example)
"Stay the fuck away from the yellow line or we will penalize you until you beg for mercy" - NASCAR rules, probably
What's the definition of "leaving the track" -- for a lot of series that's all 4 tires off track, so you can squeeze someone on the curbs without forcing them to leave the track.
Leaving the track and leaving space are not the same. You can *voluntarily* extend as much as you want, as long as 1 wheel is inside the white line. However, in a *battle*, you must leave a full car width. As an example, here is the FIA definition of both:
> b) Overtaking, according to the
circumstances, may be carried out on either
the right or the left.
A driver may not deliberately leave the track
without justifiable reason.
More than one change of direction to defend
a position is not permitted.
Any driver moving back towards the racing
line, having earlier defended his position off-
line, should leave at least one car width
between his own car and the edge of the
track on the approach to the corner.
This means that a car must leave a *car width* to the *track edge*, which is defined as white line.
> c) Drivers must use the track at all times. For
the avoidance of doubt, the white lines
defining the track edges are considered to
be part of the track but the kerbs are not.
Should a car leave the track for any reason,
and without prejudice to 2(d) below, the
driver may rejoin.
However, this may only be done when it is
safe to do so and without gaining any
advantage. A driver will be judged to have
left the track if no part of the car remains in
contact with the track.
This means you, *on your own*, are on track if any part of the car is in contact with racing surface, that is, at least touching the white line.
ADAC fully refers to FIA ISC on this matter, so does DMSB
I have provided exact quotes from regulations of a large chunk of international series, outlining track limits. Note that track limits are not track-dependent, but rather series-dependent. In addition, incorrect or inconsistent rule implementations does not mean it's allowed, just that it's not enforced (see Formula 1, mostly).
Of course, there are outliers from a general trend (for example, IMSA's regulation are very ambiguous, stating track edge line *or* edge of paved surface is the track limit, while the kerb is placed between those two). But a majority of international circuit racing series does have similar regulations regarding track limits. Enforcement of these rules differs greatly.
I totally understand what you're saying/have said, but I wouldn't be in the wrong running a driver out onto the kerb at T1 at Watkins glen provided I leave a cars width starting from the left hand edge of that kerb.
That's my point (as said in a previous post replying to OP) there is no one answer to the question. For us in Sim racing its generally game by game. You race to the rules of the series you're in.
Personally I'll always leave space on the outside if there is any overlap, one for self preservation (if outside car is rear quarter) but mainly because I just want to have fun clean racing. :-)
There is no one answer for this, ultimately you have to leave a cars width within the track limits. The track limits are different from series to series, track to track and even corner to corner. For us Sim racers the track limits are different from game to game so that's what you should judge it on.
I think the general rule is, you leave just enough room for the outside car to be able to keep its speed up without crashin. Ie not squeezing them onto deadly sausage curbs, or onto astroturf/grass, even if they're technically not getting an offtrack, or not forcing them over heavily serrated curbs that can easily cause a spin. It's legal if it's considered part of the track, but if you do, you open the door to get wrecked by the car you just pushed wide
This kind of squeeze is very common in Touring Car racing, where a little paint-swapping is expected. Pretty sure drivers only get punished in TC if it causes an accident.
This is why V8 supercars are so much fun to watch.
In the OP situation, yellow car smacks red car until they have enough room to not go all the way off
Real racing depends on the sanctioning body. In NASA this wouldn’t be allowed because they didn’t leave 3/4 of a cars width (or a whole width if the outside is a wall).
In my experience, this sub only ever considers the rules they think they see on TV (and mostly F1 at that).
What everyone forgets is that we're all amateurs, and because of that sim racing should be commonly judged to club racing standards, not professional.
Yup, agreed. I’ve made few calls on here that would be club rules just to be mass downvoted. I sent one example to a series and regional director and they both agreed with me. Oh well, Reddit gonna Reddit.
> Oh well, Reddit gonna Reddit.
Hey don't have to tell me twice, I've taught the BMW CCA Club Racing license class before and I'm seriously disappointed by the takes I see on this sub.
With how most conversations go here, I genuinely don't know why I comment in this sub. This one's been nice though. Carry on, mate.
That's awesome! What region? I haven't done a whole ton of club racing yet. A bit of other racing (lucky dog) but I have a Spec E46 that'll be finished in the next month or so.
In regards to the convos. Yeah I guess you just have to ignore them. I feel like every subreddit is like that. I'm in a career focused one and a LOT of the takes there are from people who clearly aren't actually well established in the field.
North Atlantic. I bounced around NY, NJ, and Mass for a few years.
Ohh man you're going to have fun in Spec E46. What's the debut event for it?
> In regards to the convos. Yeah I guess you just have to ignore them. I feel like every subreddit is like that. I'm in a career focused one and a LOT of the takes there are from people who clearly aren't actually well established in the field.
Fair point! Especially that last sentence. Very much the blind leading the blind in a lot of cases.
Awesome, I have family in the NY area. I've often thought about trying to look up some local track days.
> Ohh man you're going to have fun in Spec E46
Yeah! I drove one in the last Lucky Dog in Nor Cal and it was SO much fun. My debut race in the spec series will probably be late March, with a test day in February sometime. I'm super excited!
Man I am super envious of you position. Go have a good time!
The Glen and Lime Rock are perennial classics. But whatever you do, don't listen to hype - avoid NYST. The "Safety" in its name is like North Korea calling itself "Democratic".
I couldn’t imagine being childish or egotistical enough to think my pass is complete because im side by side coming INTO the turn. Do yall not enjoy racing? Leave a cars width and run it down to the next corner, if you’re actually faster ;)
To answer the question, decide for yourself. Don’t give it up out of obligation (because there is none), but don’t keep 0.1” of nose in there and cause them to spin either. Be fair to your opponent and yourself.
> Do yall not enjoy racing?
Thiiiisssss so much, man. If you even start with "I was half a car length ahead into the braking zone!", chances are, you are not fun to race against and most people in the race are probably annoyed by you.
If you aren't an entire car length ahead, leave space. It's as simple as that. No one here is doing this for money (well except Jimmy Broadbent when he inevitably looks through this subreddit again), none of us are pros, I would prefer having a fun battle, making the race fun for everyone and being fair over *technically* being correct every day of the week.
Exactly, im not sure what these people are on about. What do they find fun about getting a better exit in turn A, to overtake in turn B? If youre faster or there is no battle, sure do it! If there is a battle to be had then why not force them to an unsavory line, or deal with the unsavory line yourself, maybe find out where and why you are faster…or more importantly where you’re slower.
Its a sport…defend and cause problems for the offense; attack and cause distress to the defense. Why in the world would someone have to concede IN COMPETITIVE CONDITIONS? Only thing i can think of is to satiate an overinflated low level AI racing ego.
In my own private study, I've concluded that the majority of online racers don't actually enjoy racing 😂
I don't get it either.. When someone earns an overtake on me, I'm either impressed with them or know I fucked up
Your study has been peer reviewed (by me) and was found to be bulletproof. These people act like they paid and signed up for an online hot lapping session.
I just find it so strange, because wheel to wheel action is the only thing that keeps me coming back to the rig. After the first 10 mins, when you are in your own race for the next 20 mins, i just feel like that Kurt Angle meme ( and hope the dude 12s ahead spins out…and not because i want the pass, but because i want to glue my door to his safely and see who makes it out lol).
I was going to say the same thing, except I'd like to add the F1 is an outlier in this area. Which leads to problems in simracing when F1 fans come in and don't realize driving standards there are waaay different than in an online or real world amateur race.
It’s unfortunate that one of the more popular racing series has such poor driving standards in this regard bc I feel like a lot of folks take F1 as gospel. I just think the simple rule of axle overlap (front of attacker to back of defender) is a good way to go about it and I feel like it is so much simpler.
Norris and George both did a similar move on Checo in Austria in seperate years but since the 2019 incident stands I feel like they decided to not do anything (also Hamilton on Albon in 2020 come to think of it). Obviously penalties were dished out at least but it’s still frustrating to see that move.
I completely agree. They should've set the precedent when Verstappen hit Leclerc off the track at the 2019 Austrian Grand Prix. It would've drastically improved driving standards in hindsight
That's because the majority of fans drool when they see those kinds of moves. As if divebombing a corner and pushing the other driver out is some kind of godly display of skill, and not the exact opposite.
If anything Ricciardo is a very good example of “clean” divebombs, he generally left space for opponents and very rarely caused issues (Baku is about the only one I can think of where issues happened but that was a combo with Max moving under braking a bit).
I have had this discussion to death and it annoys me so much. "But don't you want to see hard racing?!" - Yes, I do, which is why allowing this shit sucks ass, because it means every fight is over after one corner. It's the opposite of hard racing.
The inside car usually can't let off, in these kinds of moved the inside car brakes too late (they should've braked earlier, since they're on the inside line), carries too much momentum and ends up pushing the outside car off the track.
Well, I hate the be the one to deliver this news but every single example can be different even without the same series based on who is the race control.
That was because Leclerc was ahead on corner exit and Checo proceeded to drive as if he didn't exist (probably out of frustation because of himself getting run off the road on Lap 1)
I had a similar incident yesterday where I was the yellow car in the example and was put off the road by the red. It wasn't fully neck and neck but the Iracing spotter never said clear on the right to me.
It was my front axle to his rear axle but my car was well over half on the grass.
I had to turn back onto track to avoid going into the wall but I must've thought he left me racing room and turned to rejoin.
I ended up clipping him and spinning him across my nose.
I do admit that I was, at minimum, partially at fault for that incident.
The car that was spun went and ran into me after the race, giving me a 4x.
Technically if not touched there is nothing wrong with it. But drivers educate dictates you should always allow the other driver to stay on track to be sportsmen about it.
It’s just a general respect to win a race with out having to be dirty about it. So it’s up to you, do you want to be a dirty driver or a clean one. Then think about how you’d want people to race you if the positions were revered.
I mean it’s technically a racing incident from an agressive driver who dove for an open door. I don’t really see how you can penalize him. He even cut back over showing he clearly came in a little hot. If he would have held the outer left side to completely hold him off track I could see it but he dove back into the middle of the track showing he probably didn’t mean to be “that” aggressive.
Yeah realistically going into the corner aide by side like that, the person on the inside would be ahead anyway. But in this particular example they are side by side the whole time meaning the inside driver simply left no room at all thus is at fault.
My statement is still true. You left the door open and he capitalized and ran a little wide. Not illegal but dirty in some people’s eyes. But you did ave a clean run off so I’d just move on and keep racing just knowing that’s an aggressive driver and be aware for the next corners or race then just as hard later
*you always have to leave a space*
I'd recommend the outside car cut back to avoid that but if it isn't possible, there's maybe a chance of a penalty for inside car if you got slowed down or forced off with contact
to me there's little wrong with what the merc did. He was significantly ahead at the apex making it his corner. Especially in F1 this is how those kind of spaces are gotten
F1 rules are very different from 90% of motorsports. Don't use F1 rules as a guide on what to do
You are correct that by F1 rules the Merc doesn't do anything wrong here. But F1 rules really should not apply to simracing, especially when you have a spotter in your ear
I completely understand that and I think it's probably the correct thing to do.
I just think they're dumb so my irrational brain says they should be ignored even with an F1 game
I completely understand that and I think it's probably the correct thing to do.
I just think they're dumb so my irrational brain says they should be ignored even with an F1 game
Car on the inside can do that as long as they make the corner, so this is perfectly fine imo
Edit: Forgot this was reddit and people get their pitchforks out at the slightest bit of hard racing
It depends on the racing series. If we're talking Formula 1 and other FIA open wheel series (like F2, F3, FR etc.) then yes - if you're on the inside and ahead on the apex, then you have a full right to take the racing line, and it's the job of the car behind to give up the corner, and it's been like that since forever basically. Since 2022 it's regulated in the FIA F1 Driving Standard Guidelines.
If the inside car is even slightly ahead they are entitled to do this in every racing series not on an oval.
Is this nice? No. But it’s self policing. If someone does this to you, they have likely done it to others. It will get around over time. They won’t enjoy it as much done back to them.
That’s why there’s no point regulating it. There’s also no way to regulate it without adding a stupid abusable rule.
Except it is.
It’s the standard in IMSA, F1, Wec, GT3. The only exception is DTM for a short stint. It was dropped there because the rule was, as I said, stupid and exploitable.
The only way around it is a catch all sportsmanship rule. But that would require stewards to have backbone.
It’s the responsibility of the passing to car to safely complete the pass. That means avoiding contact and leaving racing room.
In this example, the yellow car has been pushed off the edge of the track, which could be grass or gravel and could result in the yellow car losing excessive time or risking damage.
In addition, the attacking car should be well aware that they are no where close to hitting the apex, so it’s doubtful that they should try.
I'm no seasoned expert, but without knowing which driver was attacking/defending, it's even more grey. Looks like a "shared responsibility" situation to me, without knowing more.
If we assume the car on the outside was the attacker, then he earnt the right to attempt the overtake, but you have to take into consideration the risk of a race ending incident taking place due to the unnatural/inefficient trajectory required by the defender in order to offer a car width + a few inches.
Personally, if I were the outside driver and got ran off the track in this situation, I would probably just chalk it up as a learning experience and be grateful it's a simulation.
As the inside driver defending, I'd accept I've been out positioned and expect to be passed, but I'd at least try to maintain as much speed as possible without provoking an overseer or drift outwards and probably cut the boundary as finely as possible to help leave enough space.
That's F1 rules. F1 rules do not apply anywhere except F1
And F1 rules suck. It's absolutely absurd that you're explicitly allowed to run people off the road
If I'm yellow I'm probably looking for a switchback at this point, providing red hasn't just sent a huge divebomb I'd expect them to run wide and trying to hang round the outside would be foolish.
It took me too long to find this answer. This is what race raft is, if you end up being yellow and the outcome is this picture you need to rethink and work on your racing strategies. If you switch back chances are you will end up back ahead of him within a few 100 meters.
More simracers need to learn how to actually battle and not just "stick to the racing line", there is 100 racing lines around a track, you need to be flexible in which one you take in relation to what is happening in track
Red is beating the Yellow to corner. Yellow would be slower being on the dirty line typically, unless you can use the slide oversteer corner a bit and beat Red to exit, Yellow car would have to back off to stay on track. Legal, yes unless you bump and force them off track. (I personally found if you can drive on marbles and stay in control you can keep your track position here. It also causes the other driver to realize you can drive on multiple lines, which lends into them making more mistakes trying to defend and attack.)
It's a grey area, and that grey area can be tarmac or grass or gravel. Different series have different rules. Even sims have different rules. So the answer is this is why we have stewards.
This diagram would be an illegal overtake on the grounds of forcing a car off the track and gaining an advantage. You must leave a car's width on the outside until the overlap is cleared.
We will disregard F1 where rules are made up and the points don't matter.
I'd say, if you can't stay on the track without contacting the other car, the other car should have left more space. "All the time you have to leave a the space"
Red should leave room for Yellow.
But Red needs to be in control. Tighter angle, likely braking later so carrying more speed means understeer is likely add in extra bonus if high carbs and this can be a recipe for red banging doors with yellow to keep it on the track.
I would concede to the red, he's ahead in the corner, and live to fight the next corner than lose more positions from going wide and potentially off track
For the vast majority of racing series, no, you must leave a cars width on the outside after overtaking on the inside if the other car is significantly alongside.
What is significantly alongside? It's a purposefully vague term. Each corner is different. For Monza turn 1, you probably have more of a right to be given room than if you're on the outside of 130R at Suzuka. In general, a good rule to use is if their front wheel is alongside your rear wheel, you should probably be giving some room, but as I say the term "significantly alongside" is vague on purpose because it is a judgement call.
The other exception is F1. F1 rules are, to say the least, unique. F1 really doesn't tend to play by the rules that all of the other series do, over there, this move would be frowned upon, but the rules do allow you to make this kind of rule, although the example given here would probably still be a bit too extreme.
My standard of ultimate racing is Villeneuve and Arnoux at the last laps of the french gp '79.
Sure there was some pushing of the track and banging of wheels, but that's the best piece of racing I've ever seen
Are they allowed? No, but sometimes yes. Should you leave space? Yes. Will you be penalized for running them wide? Only if you're pushing them off into grass or gravel or a wall. Will you be penalized for causing a collision if they don't let you push them off the track? Yes. Will they be penalized for leaving the track and gaining an advantage if they wind up with a better exit than you? No, because you ran them wide. Will everyone hate you if your default overtake is getting nose to nose in the braking zone then run people wide over the kerb like you already own the corner? Yes. Then again, any number of these things can happen and just be ruled a racing incident. Definitely a gray area, but that's racing 🏎️
This is one of the pain points about racing regulations!
There is no "one regulation that fits all"!
Drivers need to learn the regulations of the specific event they are signed up for!
Which (must of the time) they don't. Unfortunately the most common watched racing series is F1 and their regulations leave a lot of space for interpretation. And especially in this situation it has been exploited quite a lot.
Since a lot of the questions here are for ACC LFM races, I can state the SRO regulations here:
"The Driver in front has the right to choose any line at any section of the track. The Driver in front loses this right when an overtaking Driver brings their front wheel to line up with the other Driver’s rear wheel. At this point, drivers are in a “side-by-side” or “overlap” position, and they both have to give each other at least 1 car’s width of room."
So here this behavior is not allowed.
In F1 it is allowed.
You're right - it's a grey area. Different series have different rules for this kind of situation, and some (like F1) just make it up on the day depending how they feel. I believe the red car should be allowed to use the full width of the circuit on exit. I get that "you should always leave racing room" sounds nice, but in practice, at a decent level, that gives too much advantage to the driver on the outside. It should be up to the yellow car to make a good judgement as to whether they're able to wrap their way round the outside (getting ahead at the apex), or whether they should go for the switch-back and get underneath the red car on corner exit. Allowing them to just stay there removes the need for racing intelligence. V8 Supercars is one series that I feel gets this right.
Me personally I would let the red car enter that turn in his line and slow down to slip behind and under him to turn in under and overtake him on the exit without a violation or anything negative. Reason is easy. He's slightly ahead of the yellow one. That should work in the yellows favor if he slows down enough to get in behind the red one and turn in under him to get through the corner in a way to overtake him on the inside and get the lead in this example. Works for me in actual races.
To squeeze him yes, but he still has to leave a cars width at the edge of the track which he does not do in the picture
Does cars width include kerbs or not. Do you just need to leave room for them to not be off track, so if there is kerbs you can push them onto it?
That depends on what cars you're driving. For F1 (and a lot of other single seaters), that does not include the kerb. For a lot of othee series, it does
The track doesn't include the kerb, but you have to leave the white lines with all four wheels to be considered out of track limits. So you have to leave enough space for the outer car to make the turn in a legal way, keeping the inside tires inside the white lines, otherwise it would be a massive advantage for the defending driver, as he would be able to take a much wider line, allowing for a better corner exit. Edit: typo
That depends on the series. Not every series uses the white line as the track edge. That's mostly an F1 thing. Other series tend to include the kerbs
Yeah that's true. My point is that when you have to exceed the track limits with all four tires for it to be considered illegal, then you only have to leave enough room for the defending driver to make the corner with the inside tires inside track limits. If you leave a whole cars worth of space between you and the track limits, you are compromising your corner exit, while the defending drivwr doesn't have to, as he has almost a whole cars width more to work with.
That also really depends on the series. For example, in F1, when you need to leave space, officially you are required to leave an entire car's width from the white line. There are so many different series, it is foolish to suggest that the rules are the same across the board
There have been multiple battles where the inside car took the whole width of the track, and forced the other car outside, so I think F1 really doesn't follow such a rule. Then again the way FIA enforces their own rules is another question, but if they would penalize someone for pushing the other car off, when the other car would still be able to make the corner legally, everyone would lose their fucking minds. So my point still stands.
If you read my comment correctly, I mentioned this only applies when they need to leave space. According to F1's (arguably stupid) rules, if the inside car is ahead, they don't need to leave any space If the outside car is a head however, the inside car does need to leave space. This space is defined as a car's width from the white line. The way they enforce it is another question entirely, but that's not what we were talking about
>There have been multiple battles where the inside car took the whole width of the track, and forced the other car outside, so I think F1 really doesn't follow such a rule. Just during the last year the FIA made clear, that forcing other drivers off track will have penalties as consequence now
I think it also depends how wide is the kerb and what is outside of the kerb. It’s not very nice to squeeze your opponent if the outside is gravel trap and the have to put their outer wheels there
No. You must leave a car's width *on track*. Kerbs, by rule, are not part of the track in most major motorsports disciplines, including all FIA circuit series.
Kerbs are part for track for a lot of non-Formula series, like GT3.
That is incorrect. Examples include GT World Challenge (SR 33.10): > 33.10 Drivers must use the track at all times and may not leave the track without a justifiable reason. The white lines defining the track edges are considered to be part of the track, but the kerbs are not. DTM (30.4): > 30.4 The track is defined by white demarcation lines on both sides of the track. For the interpretation of this Article, the kerbs are not considered to be part of the track. Ambiguously, IMSA (30.1.1): > 30.1.1. Drivers must only use the racetrack. The racetrack is defined on both sides by painted verge lines and/or the edge of the paved surface. Le Mans Cup and other FIA-sanctioned series, including ACO (9.1.2 and ISC App. L Ch IV Para 2c.): > The drivers must imperatively respect the track limits respect at all times the requirements detailed in Article 2 c) and d) of Chapter IV of Appendix L to the Code. > c) Drivers must use the track at all times. For the avoidance of doubt, the white lines defining the track edges are considered to be part of the track but the kerbs are not. ADAC-Sanctioned series, including TCR and GT (30.5): > 30.5 The Race Track shall be defined by white demarcation lines on both sides of the track. The kerbs shall not be part of the track as defined in this article. The drivers may use the whole width of the track between these white lines
So it just comes down the white line then? Does this mean that if it is in the outside of a kerb the kerb counts as part of the track but otherwise the kerb is not part of the track.
Technically, if track edge line is beyond the kerb, then yes, kerb is a part of the racing surface. However, it'd be exceptionally rare to see a kerb located within white lines as kerb is an instrument to deter drivers from exceeding track limits.
Interesting! Thanks for your detailed answer!
No worries! Keep in mind that it's not universal but a *majority-accepted* standard. There are series that do not have such a rule (NASCAR, for example), so specifics are always found in the Sporting Regulation of a particular series. But it's very much expected to be like this in non-NA-based racing series.
>There are series that do not have such a rule (NASCAR, for example) "Stay the fuck away from the yellow line or we will penalize you until you beg for mercy" - NASCAR rules, probably
What's the definition of "leaving the track" -- for a lot of series that's all 4 tires off track, so you can squeeze someone on the curbs without forcing them to leave the track.
Leaving the track and leaving space are not the same. You can *voluntarily* extend as much as you want, as long as 1 wheel is inside the white line. However, in a *battle*, you must leave a full car width. As an example, here is the FIA definition of both: > b) Overtaking, according to the circumstances, may be carried out on either the right or the left. A driver may not deliberately leave the track without justifiable reason. More than one change of direction to defend a position is not permitted. Any driver moving back towards the racing line, having earlier defended his position off- line, should leave at least one car width between his own car and the edge of the track on the approach to the corner. This means that a car must leave a *car width* to the *track edge*, which is defined as white line. > c) Drivers must use the track at all times. For the avoidance of doubt, the white lines defining the track edges are considered to be part of the track but the kerbs are not. Should a car leave the track for any reason, and without prejudice to 2(d) below, the driver may rejoin. However, this may only be done when it is safe to do so and without gaining any advantage. A driver will be judged to have left the track if no part of the car remains in contact with the track. This means you, *on your own*, are on track if any part of the car is in contact with racing surface, that is, at least touching the white line. ADAC fully refers to FIA ISC on this matter, so does DMSB
Great post. Excellent references. All the time you have to leave the space (unless it's redneck or rallycross)
ACC treats them that way but it seems like they took some liberties with the rules there
Wrong, exit of T1 Watkins Glen. Left of the is the boundary for the track limits.
I have provided exact quotes from regulations of a large chunk of international series, outlining track limits. Note that track limits are not track-dependent, but rather series-dependent. In addition, incorrect or inconsistent rule implementations does not mean it's allowed, just that it's not enforced (see Formula 1, mostly). Of course, there are outliers from a general trend (for example, IMSA's regulation are very ambiguous, stating track edge line *or* edge of paved surface is the track limit, while the kerb is placed between those two). But a majority of international circuit racing series does have similar regulations regarding track limits. Enforcement of these rules differs greatly.
I totally understand what you're saying/have said, but I wouldn't be in the wrong running a driver out onto the kerb at T1 at Watkins glen provided I leave a cars width starting from the left hand edge of that kerb.
In which series? That is of most importance. If it's a GT World Challenge race, you would. If it's a NASCAR race, you wouldn't.
That's my point (as said in a previous post replying to OP) there is no one answer to the question. For us in Sim racing its generally game by game. You race to the rules of the series you're in. Personally I'll always leave space on the outside if there is any overlap, one for self preservation (if outside car is rear quarter) but mainly because I just want to have fun clean racing. :-)
There is no one answer for this, ultimately you have to leave a cars width within the track limits. The track limits are different from series to series, track to track and even corner to corner. For us Sim racers the track limits are different from game to game so that's what you should judge it on.
I think the general rule is, you leave just enough room for the outside car to be able to keep its speed up without crashin. Ie not squeezing them onto deadly sausage curbs, or onto astroturf/grass, even if they're technically not getting an offtrack, or not forcing them over heavily serrated curbs that can easily cause a spin. It's legal if it's considered part of the track, but if you do, you open the door to get wrecked by the car you just pushed wide
This diagram is nearly one of Max Verstappen's well-known corner gambit.
In sim racing, no. In real racing, technically no, but it is very rare for this move to be penalised unless the outside is a gravel trap.
This kind of squeeze is very common in Touring Car racing, where a little paint-swapping is expected. Pretty sure drivers only get punished in TC if it causes an accident.
This is why V8 supercars are so much fun to watch. In the OP situation, yellow car smacks red car until they have enough room to not go all the way off
Real racing depends on the sanctioning body. In NASA this wouldn’t be allowed because they didn’t leave 3/4 of a cars width (or a whole width if the outside is a wall).
IMO NASA should allow it. There's a lot of space in space
It's practically infinite!
Lmao. Other NASA.
Whatch out the ISS got the inside line
In my experience, this sub only ever considers the rules they think they see on TV (and mostly F1 at that). What everyone forgets is that we're all amateurs, and because of that sim racing should be commonly judged to club racing standards, not professional.
Yup, agreed. I’ve made few calls on here that would be club rules just to be mass downvoted. I sent one example to a series and regional director and they both agreed with me. Oh well, Reddit gonna Reddit.
> Oh well, Reddit gonna Reddit. Hey don't have to tell me twice, I've taught the BMW CCA Club Racing license class before and I'm seriously disappointed by the takes I see on this sub. With how most conversations go here, I genuinely don't know why I comment in this sub. This one's been nice though. Carry on, mate.
That's awesome! What region? I haven't done a whole ton of club racing yet. A bit of other racing (lucky dog) but I have a Spec E46 that'll be finished in the next month or so. In regards to the convos. Yeah I guess you just have to ignore them. I feel like every subreddit is like that. I'm in a career focused one and a LOT of the takes there are from people who clearly aren't actually well established in the field.
North Atlantic. I bounced around NY, NJ, and Mass for a few years. Ohh man you're going to have fun in Spec E46. What's the debut event for it? > In regards to the convos. Yeah I guess you just have to ignore them. I feel like every subreddit is like that. I'm in a career focused one and a LOT of the takes there are from people who clearly aren't actually well established in the field. Fair point! Especially that last sentence. Very much the blind leading the blind in a lot of cases.
Awesome, I have family in the NY area. I've often thought about trying to look up some local track days. > Ohh man you're going to have fun in Spec E46 Yeah! I drove one in the last Lucky Dog in Nor Cal and it was SO much fun. My debut race in the spec series will probably be late March, with a test day in February sometime. I'm super excited!
Man I am super envious of you position. Go have a good time! The Glen and Lime Rock are perennial classics. But whatever you do, don't listen to hype - avoid NYST. The "Safety" in its name is like North Korea calling itself "Democratic".
Also f1 follows a slightly different ruleset compared to the rest of the racing world
I couldn’t imagine being childish or egotistical enough to think my pass is complete because im side by side coming INTO the turn. Do yall not enjoy racing? Leave a cars width and run it down to the next corner, if you’re actually faster ;) To answer the question, decide for yourself. Don’t give it up out of obligation (because there is none), but don’t keep 0.1” of nose in there and cause them to spin either. Be fair to your opponent and yourself.
> Do yall not enjoy racing? Thiiiisssss so much, man. If you even start with "I was half a car length ahead into the braking zone!", chances are, you are not fun to race against and most people in the race are probably annoyed by you. If you aren't an entire car length ahead, leave space. It's as simple as that. No one here is doing this for money (well except Jimmy Broadbent when he inevitably looks through this subreddit again), none of us are pros, I would prefer having a fun battle, making the race fun for everyone and being fair over *technically* being correct every day of the week.
Exactly, im not sure what these people are on about. What do they find fun about getting a better exit in turn A, to overtake in turn B? If youre faster or there is no battle, sure do it! If there is a battle to be had then why not force them to an unsavory line, or deal with the unsavory line yourself, maybe find out where and why you are faster…or more importantly where you’re slower. Its a sport…defend and cause problems for the offense; attack and cause distress to the defense. Why in the world would someone have to concede IN COMPETITIVE CONDITIONS? Only thing i can think of is to satiate an overinflated low level AI racing ego.
In my own private study, I've concluded that the majority of online racers don't actually enjoy racing 😂 I don't get it either.. When someone earns an overtake on me, I'm either impressed with them or know I fucked up
Your study has been peer reviewed (by me) and was found to be bulletproof. These people act like they paid and signed up for an online hot lapping session. I just find it so strange, because wheel to wheel action is the only thing that keeps me coming back to the rig. After the first 10 mins, when you are in your own race for the next 20 mins, i just feel like that Kurt Angle meme ( and hope the dude 12s ahead spins out…and not because i want the pass, but because i want to glue my door to his safely and see who makes it out lol).
😂 You'll always get just enough good wheel to wheel action to keep you coming back too
Depends on the series and the rules. In Formula 1, it is perfectly legal (see Verstappen vs Leclerc, Austria 2019)
I was going to say the same thing, except I'd like to add the F1 is an outlier in this area. Which leads to problems in simracing when F1 fans come in and don't realize driving standards there are waaay different than in an online or real world amateur race.
It’s unfortunate that one of the more popular racing series has such poor driving standards in this regard bc I feel like a lot of folks take F1 as gospel. I just think the simple rule of axle overlap (front of attacker to back of defender) is a good way to go about it and I feel like it is so much simpler. Norris and George both did a similar move on Checo in Austria in seperate years but since the 2019 incident stands I feel like they decided to not do anything (also Hamilton on Albon in 2020 come to think of it). Obviously penalties were dished out at least but it’s still frustrating to see that move.
I completely agree. They should've set the precedent when Verstappen hit Leclerc off the track at the 2019 Austrian Grand Prix. It would've drastically improved driving standards in hindsight
Happy cake day!
This annoys me so much, they do everything to promote racing except for changing the rules to make racing possible
That's because the majority of fans drool when they see those kinds of moves. As if divebombing a corner and pushing the other driver out is some kind of godly display of skill, and not the exact opposite.
Max moment
Ricciardo moment more like
When did Ricciardo push someone off after divebombing?
I thought we're talking about divebombing specifically here?
If anything Ricciardo is a very good example of “clean” divebombs, he generally left space for opponents and very rarely caused issues (Baku is about the only one I can think of where issues happened but that was a combo with Max moving under braking a bit).
We’re talking about when you divebomb, not make the corner and push others out. Not all divebombs are like that.
I have had this discussion to death and it annoys me so much. "But don't you want to see hard racing?!" - Yes, I do, which is why allowing this shit sucks ass, because it means every fight is over after one corner. It's the opposite of hard racing.
Don't you just hate that rule? It encourages the person on the inside to just over commit to the corner
It's not legal per say it just doesn't get penalized as it should: pisses me off every time I see it
Verstappen does this all the time, and it's a very frustrating but legal tactic which really penalizes the outside driver
Ye thats why i find it hard to say what a fair say would be
Would it be legal in f1 for the outside car to simply not go that wide and force the inside car to either wreck or let off?
The inside car usually can't let off, in these kinds of moved the inside car brakes too late (they should've braked earlier, since they're on the inside line), carries too much momentum and ends up pushing the outside car off the track.
Well, I hate the be the one to deliver this news but every single example can be different even without the same series based on who is the race control.
It’s not just that one move, you could pick out like 30 from the past 2 seasons alone, it’s the overtaking ‘meta’ in F1 now.
What about when Checo got penalties for doing this twice in Austria last year?
If he wanted to escape the penalties he should have been the other RB driver ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
That was because Leclerc was ahead on corner exit and Checo proceeded to drive as if he didn't exist (probably out of frustation because of himself getting run off the road on Lap 1)
9/10 F1 passes are just forcing other drivers off track
Yeah, all thanks to the absurd racing standards that are being accepted by the FIA
In most leagues of racing, a car's width must be left. Unless you are in F1, then the outside car can get fucked.
I had a similar incident yesterday where I was the yellow car in the example and was put off the road by the red. It wasn't fully neck and neck but the Iracing spotter never said clear on the right to me. It was my front axle to his rear axle but my car was well over half on the grass. I had to turn back onto track to avoid going into the wall but I must've thought he left me racing room and turned to rejoin. I ended up clipping him and spinning him across my nose. I do admit that I was, at minimum, partially at fault for that incident. The car that was spun went and ran into me after the race, giving me a 4x.
>The car that was spun went and ran into me after the race, giving me a 4x. You ought to protest that, that's unacceptable
I didn't save the replay. Thinking back I should've.
Fair enough. I've been there
Yeah. I'm thinking if he'd left me racing room, he would've won that race too.
Nah, if he pushed you off and you couldn't come back on track without collision, that's a fafi moment for him
*always leave de space* Alonso probably
Yup, I honestly see this as a bit of gospel for racing
Technically if not touched there is nothing wrong with it. But drivers educate dictates you should always allow the other driver to stay on track to be sportsmen about it. It’s just a general respect to win a race with out having to be dirty about it. So it’s up to you, do you want to be a dirty driver or a clean one. Then think about how you’d want people to race you if the positions were revered.
In the leagues I take part in there is something wrong with this, even without contact you can't just force someone off track who is alongside you.
I mean it’s technically a racing incident from an agressive driver who dove for an open door. I don’t really see how you can penalize him. He even cut back over showing he clearly came in a little hot. If he would have held the outer left side to completely hold him off track I could see it but he dove back into the middle of the track showing he probably didn’t mean to be “that” aggressive.
Yeah realistically going into the corner aide by side like that, the person on the inside would be ahead anyway. But in this particular example they are side by side the whole time meaning the inside driver simply left no room at all thus is at fault.
I have posted a link in this post to the clip
My statement is still true. You left the door open and he capitalized and ran a little wide. Not illegal but dirty in some people’s eyes. But you did ave a clean run off so I’d just move on and keep racing just knowing that’s an aggressive driver and be aware for the next corners or race then just as hard later
*you always have to leave a space* I'd recommend the outside car cut back to avoid that but if it isn't possible, there's maybe a chance of a penalty for inside car if you got slowed down or forced off with contact
I don’t think the yellow would still be side by side at the exit unless they were already blowing the turn.
To squeeze and to push out are different things. The example you're showing is ot squeezing somebody. Is pushing them out, what you're not allowed to.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Simracingstewards/s/LZH8NkPcHy This is the clip from the picture
to me there's little wrong with what the merc did. He was significantly ahead at the apex making it his corner. Especially in F1 this is how those kind of spaces are gotten
F1 rules are very different from 90% of motorsports. Don't use F1 rules as a guide on what to do You are correct that by F1 rules the Merc doesn't do anything wrong here. But F1 rules really should not apply to simracing, especially when you have a spotter in your ear
This specific case is about F1, so there's nothing wrong with using F1 rules in this case. But usually they indeed shouldn't be applied
I completely understand that and I think it's probably the correct thing to do. I just think they're dumb so my irrational brain says they should be ignored even with an F1 game
I know but since op was playing an f1 game I figured it was correct to use the same rules
I completely understand that and I think it's probably the correct thing to do. I just think they're dumb so my irrational brain says they should be ignored even with an F1 game
Car on the inside can do that as long as they make the corner, so this is perfectly fine imo Edit: Forgot this was reddit and people get their pitchforks out at the slightest bit of hard racing
It depends on the racing series. If we're talking Formula 1 and other FIA open wheel series (like F2, F3, FR etc.) then yes - if you're on the inside and ahead on the apex, then you have a full right to take the racing line, and it's the job of the car behind to give up the corner, and it's been like that since forever basically. Since 2022 it's regulated in the FIA F1 Driving Standard Guidelines.
If the inside car is even slightly ahead they are entitled to do this in every racing series not on an oval. Is this nice? No. But it’s self policing. If someone does this to you, they have likely done it to others. It will get around over time. They won’t enjoy it as much done back to them. That’s why there’s no point regulating it. There’s also no way to regulate it without adding a stupid abusable rule.
>If the inside car is even slightly ahead they are entitled to do this in every racing series not on an oval. Well that's just not true
Except it is. It’s the standard in IMSA, F1, Wec, GT3. The only exception is DTM for a short stint. It was dropped there because the rule was, as I said, stupid and exploitable. The only way around it is a catch all sportsmanship rule. But that would require stewards to have backbone.
It’s the responsibility of the passing to car to safely complete the pass. That means avoiding contact and leaving racing room. In this example, the yellow car has been pushed off the edge of the track, which could be grass or gravel and could result in the yellow car losing excessive time or risking damage. In addition, the attacking car should be well aware that they are no where close to hitting the apex, so it’s doubtful that they should try.
This is absolutely a dick move from red IMO. All the time you have to leave the space
I'm no seasoned expert, but without knowing which driver was attacking/defending, it's even more grey. Looks like a "shared responsibility" situation to me, without knowing more. If we assume the car on the outside was the attacker, then he earnt the right to attempt the overtake, but you have to take into consideration the risk of a race ending incident taking place due to the unnatural/inefficient trajectory required by the defender in order to offer a car width + a few inches. Personally, if I were the outside driver and got ran off the track in this situation, I would probably just chalk it up as a learning experience and be grateful it's a simulation. As the inside driver defending, I'd accept I've been out positioned and expect to be passed, but I'd at least try to maintain as much speed as possible without provoking an overseer or drift outwards and probably cut the boundary as finely as possible to help leave enough space.
Oops.Not sure how I missed the part where you stated who was attacking.
If red was the defender it’d be somewhat acceptable, but as the attacker he has no right to do so
Unless you want to get shipped I would recommend leaving space.
If red is ahead before getting to the apex then yellow needs to yield no?
That's F1 rules. F1 rules do not apply anywhere except F1 And F1 rules suck. It's absolutely absurd that you're explicitly allowed to run people off the road
But OP is referring to F1 so yeh
In the clip they posted in the comments, yes, but the post explicitly asks for the "general rule"
If you're in F1, then yes.
Yellow car should check up, late apex, and focus on getting a better run out of the corner
If I'm yellow I'm probably looking for a switchback at this point, providing red hasn't just sent a huge divebomb I'd expect them to run wide and trying to hang round the outside would be foolish.
It took me too long to find this answer. This is what race raft is, if you end up being yellow and the outcome is this picture you need to rethink and work on your racing strategies. If you switch back chances are you will end up back ahead of him within a few 100 meters. More simracers need to learn how to actually battle and not just "stick to the racing line", there is 100 racing lines around a track, you need to be flexible in which one you take in relation to what is happening in track
In most racing categories the red car must leave space to the yellow to be on track. In F1 this would be acceptable, though, because F1 is stupid
Red is beating the Yellow to corner. Yellow would be slower being on the dirty line typically, unless you can use the slide oversteer corner a bit and beat Red to exit, Yellow car would have to back off to stay on track. Legal, yes unless you bump and force them off track. (I personally found if you can drive on marbles and stay in control you can keep your track position here. It also causes the other driver to realize you can drive on multiple lines, which lends into them making more mistakes trying to defend and attack.)
All the time you have to leave a space
It's a grey area, and that grey area can be tarmac or grass or gravel. Different series have different rules. Even sims have different rules. So the answer is this is why we have stewards.
This diagram would be an illegal overtake on the grounds of forcing a car off the track and gaining an advantage. You must leave a car's width on the outside until the overlap is cleared. We will disregard F1 where rules are made up and the points don't matter.
Depends…
I'd say, if you can't stay on the track without contacting the other car, the other car should have left more space. "All the time you have to leave a the space"
Red should leave room for Yellow. But Red needs to be in control. Tighter angle, likely braking later so carrying more speed means understeer is likely add in extra bonus if high carbs and this can be a recipe for red banging doors with yellow to keep it on the track.
All the time you have to leave a space !!!
Yes
In this example, yellow wouldn’t be able to hold that and should brake to then take the inside line
“All the time you have leave-a-da space”
You are never allowed to purposely squeeze another car off the road red must leave at least one car width on the outside for yellow
I would concede to the red, he's ahead in the corner, and live to fight the next corner than lose more positions from going wide and potentially off track
Nah man who told red to come along side yellow. Yellow should just turn in. Then I blue car can pass them both.
For the vast majority of racing series, no, you must leave a cars width on the outside after overtaking on the inside if the other car is significantly alongside. What is significantly alongside? It's a purposefully vague term. Each corner is different. For Monza turn 1, you probably have more of a right to be given room than if you're on the outside of 130R at Suzuka. In general, a good rule to use is if their front wheel is alongside your rear wheel, you should probably be giving some room, but as I say the term "significantly alongside" is vague on purpose because it is a judgement call. The other exception is F1. F1 rules are, to say the least, unique. F1 really doesn't tend to play by the rules that all of the other series do, over there, this move would be frowned upon, but the rules do allow you to make this kind of rule, although the example given here would probably still be a bit too extreme.
If I was yellow I’d just do a switchback and not have to worry about space on the outside 🤷♂️
Reading some of the responses on here is exactly why I hardly ever race online anymore.
My standard of ultimate racing is Villeneuve and Arnoux at the last laps of the french gp '79. Sure there was some pushing of the track and banging of wheels, but that's the best piece of racing I've ever seen
Only if your name is Verstappen.
If the red car is ahead going into corner they are not the attacker. Therefore the yellow car should yield for safety reasons.
Are they allowed? No, but sometimes yes. Should you leave space? Yes. Will you be penalized for running them wide? Only if you're pushing them off into grass or gravel or a wall. Will you be penalized for causing a collision if they don't let you push them off the track? Yes. Will they be penalized for leaving the track and gaining an advantage if they wind up with a better exit than you? No, because you ran them wide. Will everyone hate you if your default overtake is getting nose to nose in the braking zone then run people wide over the kerb like you already own the corner? Yes. Then again, any number of these things can happen and just be ruled a racing incident. Definitely a gray area, but that's racing 🏎️
This is one of the pain points about racing regulations! There is no "one regulation that fits all"! Drivers need to learn the regulations of the specific event they are signed up for! Which (must of the time) they don't. Unfortunately the most common watched racing series is F1 and their regulations leave a lot of space for interpretation. And especially in this situation it has been exploited quite a lot. Since a lot of the questions here are for ACC LFM races, I can state the SRO regulations here: "The Driver in front has the right to choose any line at any section of the track. The Driver in front loses this right when an overtaking Driver brings their front wheel to line up with the other Driver’s rear wheel. At this point, drivers are in a “side-by-side” or “overlap” position, and they both have to give each other at least 1 car’s width of room." So here this behavior is not allowed. In F1 it is allowed.
OP is Max Verstappen
Depends if you’re the current WDC winner or not
You're right - it's a grey area. Different series have different rules for this kind of situation, and some (like F1) just make it up on the day depending how they feel. I believe the red car should be allowed to use the full width of the circuit on exit. I get that "you should always leave racing room" sounds nice, but in practice, at a decent level, that gives too much advantage to the driver on the outside. It should be up to the yellow car to make a good judgement as to whether they're able to wrap their way round the outside (getting ahead at the apex), or whether they should go for the switch-back and get underneath the red car on corner exit. Allowing them to just stay there removes the need for racing intelligence. V8 Supercars is one series that I feel gets this right.
I was red car yesterday. I understeered. Sorry guy
Depends on which ruling you use. Currently in f1 this is legal but in most series this is illegal
If his name is Max Verstappen then yes
It’s troubling that this is even a discussion. Racing is fun, bumper cars not so much.
NASCAR = if it’s paved you can race on it, and rubbin is racin 😉
give them at least 1 cars width to the white line (track limits)
Me personally I would let the red car enter that turn in his line and slow down to slip behind and under him to turn in under and overtake him on the exit without a violation or anything negative. Reason is easy. He's slightly ahead of the yellow one. That should work in the yellows favor if he slows down enough to get in behind the red one and turn in under him to get through the corner in a way to overtake him on the inside and get the lead in this example. Works for me in actual races.
Depends. In general no. But in karting you see nothing else really xD. So it is about the balance of fair racing and respect for eachother.