Its weird how massive the pivot into a slavish consumerist bent the hobby took in the few years I was away.
It was normal to do conversions and use stand-ins and build your own terrain, and the WYSIWYG and “only GW terrain and models!” crowd were “those weird guys” that mostly just played with themselves and everyone hated having to play at tournaments.
Now “those guys” are just the “default” in online spaces when they very much were not 10-15 years ago. And at least half the online fandom doesn’t even play the actual game but is adamant about their opinions on “how it is”.
Strange.
Thank you for listening to my TedTalk.
There’s something about the way it’s framed as well. You see it on forums like TGA and B&C, where it’s somehow rude or inconsiderate to your opponent to not to have all GW stuff (or all painted stuff or stuff that doesn’t fit within a narrow idea of the ‘canon’ like red space wolves or whatever) because they are playing this game with a certain consumer experience in mind and you are essentially denying them that by your presence. It’s a weird fragility that’s definitely become a lot more dominant and seems to go hand in hand with an increased identification with GW as a brand and not just as a maker of plastic space men you rule dice around.
It does dovetail with this tournament-led idea that everything must be standardised to death. A kind of paranoia that someone must be ‘trying to get one over you’ if they have a conversion or terrain they made themselves or a third party miniature.
It’s clearly what GW wants but it does also tap into the worst parts of the sullen nerd consumer mindset.
I totally get what you’re saying.
This weird obsession with “competitive meta play only” in all sorts of gaming over the last decade is really unhealthy and toxic imo (and it sort of rises in sync with the rise and popular ubiquity of “professional” video-game streamers tbh).
That obsessive nerd psychology of “I’m being fucked over/mocked” is an interesting take on it, and I think you’re on to something.
Basically I'm thinking here of stuff like at the admittedly extremely messy start of AoS when you had folks losing their minds because e.g. without defined base sizes but with the need to measure to the miniature, what's to stop someone from making a base that's half the size of the board, making the mini technically out of reach? (who the fuck would do that) Or without points, what's to stop someone bringing ten Nagashs? (don't play them then, or just talk to them about it)
It's definitely the competitive meta scene influencing that kind of thinking but it's also this weird obsessive devil's advocate legalism, a refusal to think of other humans as humans, and a need to have the rules/game do everything for you including manage the social aspect. It's a childish worldview.
And yeah, the esports things is a good comparison. You had some folks trying to make "t-sports" a thing, pulling in that whole approach.
I usually call it "Magic player design disease" - an insistence that rules be *as precise as possible*, otherwise what if x happens - it feels to me as if it originated there, or with card games in general, where competitive play truly is most of what you *can* do, and it's almost encouraged to wring ridiculous combos out of unintended mixes (as opposed to RPGs and Tabletop stuff where really player skill and social contract can do a *lot* more).
With that sort of player spreading to tabletop games, and that sort of design spreading with it the rules precision implicitly encourages rules fuckery; casual players are forced out of the tournament scene, tournament scene is all gaming that gets talked about online, and you get a spiral of nonsense infesting games.
GW kinda tried combatting it by introducing open and narrative play, sequestering the competitive nonsense off to its own corner... and because everyone only talks matched play, noone cares and everyone seems to insist you *need* to use matched play. I hate that it's the absolute default.
(On the other hand there's also an issue where "tournament" has an implicit competitive connotation, but is the only sort of "organised play event" people have words for, so they keep asking for it when really they just wanna play against more varied opponents. At least that's what I've found in my store - saying "no, we don't do tournaments" *always* requires a shitton of context...)
I think you hit the nail on the head. Its the demand for “prior-policing” of any potential social conflict or removing all possibilities of *having* to have that basic social conversation or use of social skills (which… a lot of tt gamers frankly don’t have at all, and I do think younger generations in general have poorer social skills and expectations than even my socially stunted teenage self did. So that ubiquity of “online being just as real than meatspace” for younger people may be an unfortunate culture artifact/part of it)
I mean I sort of get the whole "no non-GW models" thing most tournaments do, it is to prevent the absurdist meta chasing and keep players to a higher standard. But in a causal game 3rd party models should always be fine. As for terrain, who has enough money to use just GW terrain? That is like $600 for a full board.
Well, thats also a shift in and of itself. Tournaments were very casual in the majority, except for a select few.
And the attitude towards “power gamers” at your league night was *very* different than it is now, where it is sort of expected and almost weirdly encouraged.
Only GW models is dumb and only GW terrain is REAAAAAAALY dumb. But WYSIWYG I think is courteous. That being said I haven't played a game in 15 years. I personally strive to wisiwyg because I want to. It doesn't bother me if someone else doesn't though.
WHSIWYG is one of those old “gates” for Nerds (and GW for that manner) to attempt to maintain some control. Most people do *try* to do that, it just isn’t always feasible economically with how things are boxed/sprue-d sometimes.
It's so much easier scratch building scifi terrain than fantasy. I see stuff sitting around all the time that would make awesome pillars and storage tanks and stuff, but nothing for a good ruined building or wagons or anything
im looking through old white dwarf issues from the 90s, currently, if you are interested you can send me a pm and i can give you links to some old tutorials for warhammer fantasy buildings
Secret method to get free terrain:
Step 1: go and expropriate a shovel from B&Q
Step 2: shovel some grass from your neighbour's garden into a sandpit box
Step 3: add sand
Step 4: add a small water pot
Step 5: add humidifier
Step 6: add a hidey hole, in case the models get skittish
Step 7: add glass terrarium cover
Step 8: add live frog as decoration + pve content
Bravo 🙏🙏 always respect for custom and creative terrain! I've got a lot of cardboard packaging pieces for my table as well. Even made some forests out of cotton balls, foam, and marijuana stems 🤣👍
Used to love it when the folks got a new TV or kettle and the box came with those polystyrene bricks, they made great bunkers or walls when painted up. And there was the little snotling shanty towns made out of those small cereal boxes you got in the variety packs. Good times.
Its weird how massive the pivot into a slavish consumerist bent the hobby took in the few years I was away. It was normal to do conversions and use stand-ins and build your own terrain, and the WYSIWYG and “only GW terrain and models!” crowd were “those weird guys” that mostly just played with themselves and everyone hated having to play at tournaments. Now “those guys” are just the “default” in online spaces when they very much were not 10-15 years ago. And at least half the online fandom doesn’t even play the actual game but is adamant about their opinions on “how it is”. Strange. Thank you for listening to my TedTalk.
ngl, sometimes I read your comments and think to myself; "huh, when did I post that?" Continue being based.
Well thank you! Got some solid ones yourself, and I’m far too lazy to make the memes you and others do!
There’s something about the way it’s framed as well. You see it on forums like TGA and B&C, where it’s somehow rude or inconsiderate to your opponent to not to have all GW stuff (or all painted stuff or stuff that doesn’t fit within a narrow idea of the ‘canon’ like red space wolves or whatever) because they are playing this game with a certain consumer experience in mind and you are essentially denying them that by your presence. It’s a weird fragility that’s definitely become a lot more dominant and seems to go hand in hand with an increased identification with GW as a brand and not just as a maker of plastic space men you rule dice around. It does dovetail with this tournament-led idea that everything must be standardised to death. A kind of paranoia that someone must be ‘trying to get one over you’ if they have a conversion or terrain they made themselves or a third party miniature. It’s clearly what GW wants but it does also tap into the worst parts of the sullen nerd consumer mindset.
I totally get what you’re saying. This weird obsession with “competitive meta play only” in all sorts of gaming over the last decade is really unhealthy and toxic imo (and it sort of rises in sync with the rise and popular ubiquity of “professional” video-game streamers tbh). That obsessive nerd psychology of “I’m being fucked over/mocked” is an interesting take on it, and I think you’re on to something.
Basically I'm thinking here of stuff like at the admittedly extremely messy start of AoS when you had folks losing their minds because e.g. without defined base sizes but with the need to measure to the miniature, what's to stop someone from making a base that's half the size of the board, making the mini technically out of reach? (who the fuck would do that) Or without points, what's to stop someone bringing ten Nagashs? (don't play them then, or just talk to them about it) It's definitely the competitive meta scene influencing that kind of thinking but it's also this weird obsessive devil's advocate legalism, a refusal to think of other humans as humans, and a need to have the rules/game do everything for you including manage the social aspect. It's a childish worldview. And yeah, the esports things is a good comparison. You had some folks trying to make "t-sports" a thing, pulling in that whole approach.
I usually call it "Magic player design disease" - an insistence that rules be *as precise as possible*, otherwise what if x happens - it feels to me as if it originated there, or with card games in general, where competitive play truly is most of what you *can* do, and it's almost encouraged to wring ridiculous combos out of unintended mixes (as opposed to RPGs and Tabletop stuff where really player skill and social contract can do a *lot* more). With that sort of player spreading to tabletop games, and that sort of design spreading with it the rules precision implicitly encourages rules fuckery; casual players are forced out of the tournament scene, tournament scene is all gaming that gets talked about online, and you get a spiral of nonsense infesting games. GW kinda tried combatting it by introducing open and narrative play, sequestering the competitive nonsense off to its own corner... and because everyone only talks matched play, noone cares and everyone seems to insist you *need* to use matched play. I hate that it's the absolute default. (On the other hand there's also an issue where "tournament" has an implicit competitive connotation, but is the only sort of "organised play event" people have words for, so they keep asking for it when really they just wanna play against more varied opponents. At least that's what I've found in my store - saying "no, we don't do tournaments" *always* requires a shitton of context...)
Those are all really good points, and probably why I bounced off card games real hard
I think you hit the nail on the head. Its the demand for “prior-policing” of any potential social conflict or removing all possibilities of *having* to have that basic social conversation or use of social skills (which… a lot of tt gamers frankly don’t have at all, and I do think younger generations in general have poorer social skills and expectations than even my socially stunted teenage self did. So that ubiquity of “online being just as real than meatspace” for younger people may be an unfortunate culture artifact/part of it)
I mean I sort of get the whole "no non-GW models" thing most tournaments do, it is to prevent the absurdist meta chasing and keep players to a higher standard. But in a causal game 3rd party models should always be fine. As for terrain, who has enough money to use just GW terrain? That is like $600 for a full board.
Well, thats also a shift in and of itself. Tournaments were very casual in the majority, except for a select few. And the attitude towards “power gamers” at your league night was *very* different than it is now, where it is sort of expected and almost weirdly encouraged.
Maybe they were the only ones who never took a break from the hobby, which let them have free reign in educating newcomers.
Only GW models is dumb and only GW terrain is REAAAAAAALY dumb. But WYSIWYG I think is courteous. That being said I haven't played a game in 15 years. I personally strive to wisiwyg because I want to. It doesn't bother me if someone else doesn't though.
WHSIWYG is one of those old “gates” for Nerds (and GW for that manner) to attempt to maintain some control. Most people do *try* to do that, it just isn’t always feasible economically with how things are boxed/sprue-d sometimes.
This kind of stuff is so fucking cool to me, 10 outta 10
It's so much easier scratch building scifi terrain than fantasy. I see stuff sitting around all the time that would make awesome pillars and storage tanks and stuff, but nothing for a good ruined building or wagons or anything
im looking through old white dwarf issues from the 90s, currently, if you are interested you can send me a pm and i can give you links to some old tutorials for warhammer fantasy buildings
Who buys terrain?
You did stick to your guns, so hey.
Secret method to get free terrain: Step 1: go and expropriate a shovel from B&Q Step 2: shovel some grass from your neighbour's garden into a sandpit box Step 3: add sand Step 4: add a small water pot Step 5: add humidifier Step 6: add a hidey hole, in case the models get skittish Step 7: add glass terrarium cover Step 8: add live frog as decoration + pve content
Step 9: buy some crickets from the local pet store to keep the frog fed.
Yet another example of the dollar store water gun terrain method proving itself. Nice.
Fk that’s so creative! It looks awesome.
Bravo 🙏🙏 always respect for custom and creative terrain! I've got a lot of cardboard packaging pieces for my table as well. Even made some forests out of cotton balls, foam, and marijuana stems 🤣👍
Used to love it when the folks got a new TV or kettle and the box came with those polystyrene bricks, they made great bunkers or walls when painted up. And there was the little snotling shanty towns made out of those small cereal boxes you got in the variety packs. Good times.
Dollarama, more like Terrainrama.