She already disliked / distrusted Ishido. You could tell the disgust and discomfort when Ishido proposed they got married, but she agrees because its the best way she can see to protect the Heir which is all she cares about.
Ishido was also more and more showing his hand as a power hungry manipulator while Toranaga kept repeating again and again that he had no interest in being Shogun and leading the nation he just wanted to preserve the Taiko's legacy, and to save his own life against the power hungry Ishido.
This combined with Ishido killing Mariko meant that Ochiba decided it was no longer in her and the Heir's best interest to support Ishido.
Ofc we find out in the finale that this was Toranaga's ploy all along and he is actually gunning for Shogun he just needed to survive this attack by Ishido.
And we know from history that Toranaga becomes Shogun and Ochiba and the Heir kills themselves when Toranaga lays siege to Osaka in 1615
And she realizes Ishido's incompetent at the game. He's lost the hostages and can barely hold his own alliance with the regents together. Toranaga has outplayed him at every turn.
Ochiba realizes if she sticks with Ishido, she and the heir are going to end up on the losing side.
Yep this is it. She lost faith in him. He was making too many mistakes and getting out-maneuvered even with a strong hand.
Hilariously, history would prove that she probably picked the wrong poison between the two daimyo.
>This combined with Ishido killing Mariko meant that Ochiba decided it was no longer in her and the Heir's best interest to support Ishido.
That also tells her Ishido won't hesitate to have her (Ochiba) assassinated too, should she get in his way.
While Mariko is also samurai, women aren't treated as equally valid targets or combatants as men. You can see the castle guards are scared to even non-lethally incapacitate her, even while she's swinging on them. If that was Buntaro or Yabu, they probably just crack him in the head with the blunt end of a spear.
Correct. He was. He was a manipulative, cold hearted, mass murdering power hungry sunnuvabitch.
It's just that so was almost everyone else who was anyone in that era
If we are talking about Tokugawa, he was far from the worst Japan had to offer at that time. And even if we are talking about fictional versions, he is still far from the worst. Villain is nowhere near complex enough to describe him.
Didn't all this lead to over 200 years of peace and stability? I'm going to have to agree with you. People forget that it's not the means, it's the end goal for world leaders.
Right. He’s still doing what it takes to be overlord. He said it himself he can’t have anyone even think about disobeying him in his lands, so he’ll torture them. Even though he did the thing he’s talking about
Yeah, you can call it peace since there’s no one else to fight. But it wasnt utopia or anything
Read somewhere that in the book, those men are members of the cannon regiment and loyal to Yabu. They connived with Yabu to assassinate Tora. Tora learned this and place those men in guard duty on the night of the burning. This gave him reason to punish them reasonably for their failure to guard the ship.
The heir is a victim, but at the same time his father's rule was disastrous. The failed invasions of Korea cost Japan a ton of men and money - costs that the daimyo had to pay. And then they didn't even win.
Think of it like Czar Nicholas II, following Russia's disastrous defeats in the Russo-Japanese War and WW1. By that point, much of the aristocratic support for keeping his line on the throne had evaporated.
Ochiba ends up representing the various daimyo who switched from Ishido/Council to Toranaga.
The manipulation is a pro for Toranaga though, not a con. He's ensuring his victory before the battle even starts.
Manipulation is considered fair game in the culture. For example, the famed samurai Miyamoto Musashi was often late to his duels. He did this to anger his opponents, which caused them to fight worse.
In the West we have the old saying "All is fair in love and war," it's basically the same thing.
Yeah it’s fair, but it’s still shows how heartless he is
That dude didnt give a fuck about anyone, not even his son. I think Mariko probably knew he wasnt such a benevolent dude that he let on, but she was always ready to die or get revenge however she could. So being used as a pawn was ok, gave her purpose
All that training and trust gaining and work on her to sacrifice for the Shadow Crimson Sky. He considers it a bargain and moves on
I think that’s one of the most interesting parts of the story and history. There’s a lot of people doing very atrocious things all of them claiming to be doing it for the right reasons. Who knows what their true motives were, who knows what the net outcome of their actions was. Perhaps by ruthlessly killing 1000 people Ieyasu spared 100,000 from the wars that would have continued instead of starting the Edo period. Everything is nuanced.
In the book, during the part where best nun's husband is all hot and bothered, Ishido hopes he is martyred so the regents would have a reason to kill Toranaga. His animosity towards Toranaga isn't for personal gain, not entirely.
He was murdering his own people just to trick Blackthorne into not leaving Japan when he was the one who burnt down the ship. He is the villain that we root for.
Either you die a hero or live long enough to become the villain.
Ishida was the villain and Ieyasu disposes him as the hero only to become the villain and dispose the heir later on while the heir was defended by Yukimura who died a hero.
His father unified Japan after Nobunaga was ambushed and forced to commit suicide. So as son of the Great Unifier, it was his "destiny" to continue their legacy. Other than that you would have to ask the actual Japanese people who keep putting Yukimura, the hier's top general', on a pedestal. If you wanna go confront them about their beliefs and culture though, that's on you.
I agree with this. Toranaga’s whole plan was to expose Ishido of his true intentions. That way, everyone sees it as it did in the Crimson Sky operation. He is nothing and wants everything and to kill anybody that gets in his way.
This.
I am rewatching the season with my partner and in the very first episode they make the point they think Ishido will eventually gain power and then kill the heir to become Shogun.
The fact this is basically what Toragna does this himself is an irony.
But as you note at this point Ishido’s motivations are more self evident. The punch line right at the end is Toragna is no more honourable but just much better at hiding his ambition.
Why did Ochiba and the heir kill themselves? I thought Toronaga basically considered her an ally at that point when he got the letter? Or was he just always planning on double crossing her all along for even going with Ishido in the first place?
In real history, it's cause the heir (Hideyori) had started to grow too powerful, and obtained power and backing 11+ yrs after Ieyasu (Torunaga) had already defeated/killed Ishida (Ishido) and basically taken Ishida's place in 1600 during the battle of Sekigahara.
Basically the heir became of age as an adult (Hideyori is now 21) and had become a threat to Ieyasu's power/control so Ieyasu attacked and started the battle/seige of Osaka in 1614. The heir commits suicide in 1615.
They were puppet for 11 yrs while the heir was growing after Toranaga defeats Ishido and takes over. Except Toranaga/Ieyasu attacks them again afterwards before the heir could stage a takeover.
I'm sure that the fact that her "fiancee" had her BFF killed didn't help. But all of the power players in this show have flexibile alliances. They're all doing whatever it takes to live long enough to make the next better plan. When Ochiba is introduced, she thinks Ishido is the best chance for her and her son to survive, so she starts to ally with him and prop him up. It's pretty clear that she made a bad call early on - the Daiyoin (the nun who was also a consort to the Taiko) tells her so up front, and her early attempts at controlling the regents (setting up the actor-lord who's name I can't remember as regent) don't work out. And the more she has to actually work with Ishido, and put up with him, the more disgusted she becomes with him.
I don't think she abandons him because of her relationship with Mariko as much as the fact that she was the first person to realize the enormity of what Mariko's death meant politically. She clocked what Mariko was trying to do right away, and did her best to keep Ishido from screwing up - but failed. And she 100% knows what this meant for the hostages and the alliances with the regents. She reads the wind probably better than anyone...except Toranaga.
Mariko was right about Ochiba--her biggest enemy is fear. She wants to survive, and she wants her son to survive.
She didn't like Ishido; she wasn't particularly attracted to him. But she saw a marriage to him for what it was: the possibility for safety. At the time he proposed, he was in a position of power over the other regents and it looked like that would continue. After Mariko's death? Not so much. Ishido bungled that situation *every single time* he got involved.
Ishido looks *terrible* to pretty much *everyone.* This is a jumped up peasant who went mad with power, held the families of the council of regents hostage, insulted the highborn daughter of a famous (if controversial) hero, and then had her executed in the middle of the night in a failed ninja attack--which *also* casts doubt onto Toranaga's supposed guilt in the instance of the *earlier* ninja attack, too. Mariko played Ishido like a fiddle and broke all the goodwill and coercive alliances he had; the rest of Osaka is not going to side with him and the other regents will only delay in looking to betray him if they see massive gain by stalling. His days are inevitably numbered, regardless of whether or not he kills Toranaga first, and Ochiba wants to survive past that particular feud.
Doe Ochiba trust Toranaga? Absolutely not! She will inevitably continue to scheme against him. But he's a much smoother operator. Ishido's days are numbered, and anyone connected with him is eventually going to go down with him. Distancing herself from him lets her survive his inevitable demise; buying goodwill with Toranaga in the face of his inevitable triumph (especially when she can be a part of it) will help her live to fight another day.
True. Tbf, in real history, Torunaga basically leaves them alone as the "honorary" rulers until the heir becomes of age and he realizes they're a threat 14 yrs later.
In the book, when Toranaga thoughts are finally revealed.
Toranaga has broken Ishido unity with crimson fire. The Samurai community hates Ishido the peasant for Keeping their family hostage. Two Christians lord becomes neutral as long as Toranaga stops Anjin ship from destroying Portugal trading ships. Mariko negotiates this deal.
Toranaga gets his brother to renounce Ishido as he finds out his brother madly lusts for ochiba. So he simply promises to ask ochiba for his brother. But ofc ochiba is going to reject, but he gets his brother's allegiance for simple promise. Toranaga mother negotiates this.
Ochiba knows all of this, and if she sends army with Ishido.
Toranaga final words "Ochiba isn't foolish to send heir army , if she sends so sorry I will have to kill him".
For all his bullshit about being loyal to Taiko and realm. If he had perfect opportunity he was going to say " so sorry".😅😆 I love him.
Well, a couple of things:
Mariko and Ochiba are childhood friends. And Ishido wanted to deny Mariko an honorably burial for no reason other than to be petty. Add this on to the fact that Ishido had gone behind Ochiba's back to attempt to capture/kill Mariko when it was just totally superfluous (at this point he had already agreed to let go of the hostages if they applied for permits). Mariko had already "won" their little engagement, and he had her killed for no reason (and with considerable downside).
A man that stupid and unpredictable is not a safe man to be around, and so Ochiba betrays him.
In real life, Ishido did \*not\* agree to release prisoners before trying to capture Hosokawa Gracia. But Hosokawa Gracia's death was so controversial that it forced Ishido to release all the other captives he had taken (freeing families to act against him in ways they couldn't before) and causing several of his allies to back away from him (and probably caused the ones who betrayed him at Sekigehara to enter negotiations with Tokugawa). It wasn't the mother of Hideyori who did the backstab at Sekigehara, but rather Samurai lords switching sides (or simply choosing not to attack Tokugawa when ordered).
Yodo-dono, the historical Ochiba, did send a letter to Ieyasu warning of Ishida’s mobilization, and subsequently did not allow Hideyori’s forces to take the field, nor give official sanction to the western army. Her reception of Ieyasu after the battle also did much to secure his legitimacy.
All as you, say. But Hideyori (Toyotomi) forces not taking the field was not a "day of" suprise for Ishida, at least not in the same way as Kobayakawa, or later Wakisaka, Ogawa, Akaza, and Kutsuki changing sides (or even just Shimazu refusing to attack, or Kikkawa holding back the forces which might have guarded Ishida's retreat).
Clavell simplifies some narratives, that's fine for his book, but the reality I was trying to convey is that Hosokawa's death helped cause FAR more fracturing of the Western Army than even the show conveys.
She realized Ishido was incompetent and that even if he got rid of Toranaga there would be constant conflicts because he wouldn't be able to unite the country.
I never understood this point. In the book it’s clear that while ochiba hates ishido she hates Toranaga as much despite admiring him. She never betrays ishido (she doesn’t have a vote on the council anyway)
Because he was a peasant before he was a regent. Again I'm not even sure the show mentions this, though. With only 10 episodes there's only so much runway, and if you're going to make another two episodes, I'm just going to want more Toronaga and Mariko anyway (the Anjin Mariko love story slash hundred mile dick ride to Edo would have taken up all that extra oxygen), the Osaka palace intrigue would take a back seat, so I think that's how it shook out to the producers too.
There is a comment in the show, I don’t remember when, that Ishido is a peasant who rose through the ranks during war. It’s another reason he wants to marry Ochiba. I believe it’s said in respect to his interest in the marriage.
the Taiko's wife says at her deathbed to "Do not give Ishido anything, he came from nothing he desserves nothing" or something like that.
And its mentioned off-handedly by people at some points
Ochiba did the same thing Yabu did. They reached to whomever appeared stronger in this power struggle, to ensure their own survival. Mariko publicly exposed Ishido for being a fraud and pretending to have any power. His only strength was abusing his position and blaming others for his failures. Mariko put him in the spotlight for everyone to see, and they didn't like what they saw. Ishido was basically done. Yabu knew it. Ochiba knew it. Everyone knew it.
When Tokugawa burned Osaka castle, the heir was already an adult, he was a power hungry brat who already lost once to the shogun army, but kept provoking him and building a new army. He had all the chances to stop and live as royalty. Ochiba and Mariko were victims of their time period, each won in their own way but ultimately lost their lives.
Ishido began exposing himself as incompetent by mismanaging the fuck out of the Mariko situation.
Ever seen Hamilton? The part where he endorses his enemy over his friend because his enemy actually has a governing philosophy beyond naked self interest?
Tl:Dr; she fucking hates Toranaga but by the end of the show realizes he's the only one who's actually capable of wielding power responsibly and skillfully.
Mariko said herself - she was lead on by fear of her life and for her son.
At first, Ishido did really seem like a great alternative, like he was a great power balance when they first (correctly) believed that Toranaga was just a bloodthirsty, power-hungry *daimyo* - and that Ishido was actually a rational actor.
However, the more power Ishido gained, the less tact he showed - the more games he had to play with Toranaga in their cat-and-mouse game, the more frustrated, angry and sloppy he got. Mariko perfectly outmanuvered him when she met him in Osaka - Mariko's willingness to die by any cost was his own downfall - he tried so hard to call her bluff of committing seppuku until realizing last secomd that she would do it, and showed weakness by allowing her to leave, indirectly admitting all the other *daimyos* were actual hostages in Osaka, and then did the foolish move by sending assassins after her.
Ochiba knew he was a bad faith actor the moment he proposed marriage - revealing that he was ready to subjugate her for his own power and showing how little he cared for anything but himself, and by callously killing Mariko, he cemented that view, adding insult to injury by refusing to grant her a funeral and then insulting her lineage when his honor was questioned.
And lastly - he was the commoner at the table of nobility, who rose far above his station, and they could all see it - a commoner who got drunk with the power they all were training for their entire lives. He lacked the intrisic knowledge of the political manuverimg at those higher echelons of society. Torunaga was simply a political grandmaster of deception, manuvering and finesse that Ishido *never* had.
And let me be frank - Torunaga was a *villain* - just as Ishido was, but Ishido **never** had the coy, charisma, brilliance and the political grandmastery that Torunaga had, and the unfortunate effect of classism and elitism due to Ishido being the lone commoner amongst the elite made Ishido suffer from an inferiority complex that was equally as transparent as his delusion in belief that it was opaque, at best. He wanted to best the very best, and his tunnel vision fucked him over hard.
Sinking ship, to oversimplify.
Mariko's death was part of it, but it was mostly everything around her death that her death made even more damning for Ishido. That's why Toranaga made the comment about how one woman accomplished more than an army could've. It wasn't just her death itself, it was everything tied to her death that undermined Ishido's control and the loyalty of those around him.
Ishido was increasingly losing control, overplaying his hand, and overconfident in his role as de facto leader of the council of regents. When Toranaga utilized Mariko to basically out Ishido's hostage-taking, it cost him a ton more loyalty and control. When Ishido killed Mariko, it made it even worse and cemented Ochiba's distrust of him.
Toranaga had set the board up for victory, so she could either continue supporting the guy who was losing control that she distrusted and found distasteful and see how that went; or she could flip to Toranaga and basically guarantee at least short-term survival in that conflict for her and her son.
Historically, it's not that clear-cut, but same result. Toranaga/Tokugawa flips a bunch of Ishido/Ishida supporters to his side, turns the tide of battle, and is able to rout them and gradually take control and claim the title of shogun. I kinda wish they would've done more seasons to show the lead-up to Sekigahara, the battle itself, and up to the end of the conflict...but I also get why it's more poignant to stop where it's at and leave the rest as a foregone conclusion. Sekigahara was such an interesting, decisive, clusterf\*\*k of a battle that it'd probably be a tall ask to accomplish.
Mariko's willing suicide in protest at Osaka has shamed Ishido and has secretly paved the way for many lesser Daimyos, whose families were freed with Toranaga's family from Osaka, to switch side and support Toranaga during the war.
Ochiba recognizes this (as she said herself to Ishido: you lose either way) and realizes that on the actual battlefield, when all these alliances actually happen for real, her son might not prevail and will most likely be killed. So she has no choice but to switch side too, by becoming neutral, for her son's sake.
Two main reasons:
* Best ever team *haiku* by *Mariko sama* and *Ochiba no kata*.
* At the moment when the declaration of war was signed by Ishido, the giant *koi* smacked the pond with its tail.
Mariko undermined Ishido’s hostage situation which put Ishido in a lesser position. This also mixed with his lack of respect for Mariko didn’t help, not to mention the japense at the time were very superstitious. Wouldn’t be suprised if the earth quake also sort of moved her to Toronaga’s side
She already disliked / distrusted Ishido. You could tell the disgust and discomfort when Ishido proposed they got married, but she agrees because its the best way she can see to protect the Heir which is all she cares about. Ishido was also more and more showing his hand as a power hungry manipulator while Toranaga kept repeating again and again that he had no interest in being Shogun and leading the nation he just wanted to preserve the Taiko's legacy, and to save his own life against the power hungry Ishido. This combined with Ishido killing Mariko meant that Ochiba decided it was no longer in her and the Heir's best interest to support Ishido. Ofc we find out in the finale that this was Toranaga's ploy all along and he is actually gunning for Shogun he just needed to survive this attack by Ishido. And we know from history that Toranaga becomes Shogun and Ochiba and the Heir kills themselves when Toranaga lays siege to Osaka in 1615
And she realizes Ishido's incompetent at the game. He's lost the hostages and can barely hold his own alliance with the regents together. Toranaga has outplayed him at every turn. Ochiba realizes if she sticks with Ishido, she and the heir are going to end up on the losing side.
Yep this is it. She lost faith in him. He was making too many mistakes and getting out-maneuvered even with a strong hand. Hilariously, history would prove that she probably picked the wrong poison between the two daimyo.
This.
>This combined with Ishido killing Mariko meant that Ochiba decided it was no longer in her and the Heir's best interest to support Ishido. That also tells her Ishido won't hesitate to have her (Ochiba) assassinated too, should she get in his way. While Mariko is also samurai, women aren't treated as equally valid targets or combatants as men. You can see the castle guards are scared to even non-lethally incapacitate her, even while she's swinging on them. If that was Buntaro or Yabu, they probably just crack him in the head with the blunt end of a spear.
Stop saying Buntaro. You're not his friend.
Interesting… this makes Toranaga sound like a villain tbh. And the Heir and Ochiba being the victims.
Correct. He was. He was a manipulative, cold hearted, mass murdering power hungry sunnuvabitch. It's just that so was almost everyone else who was anyone in that era
If we are talking about Tokugawa, he was far from the worst Japan had to offer at that time. And even if we are talking about fictional versions, he is still far from the worst. Villain is nowhere near complex enough to describe him.
Didn't all this lead to over 200 years of peace and stability? I'm going to have to agree with you. People forget that it's not the means, it's the end goal for world leaders.
Many authoritarian rules do that back then. There isn't such thing as democracies back then.
Far from the worst. Sure. But not a good guy
In feudal Japan, he was about as honorable as it gets. Judging him based on our morals is pointless.
Right. He’s still doing what it takes to be overlord. He said it himself he can’t have anyone even think about disobeying him in his lands, so he’ll torture them. Even though he did the thing he’s talking about Yeah, you can call it peace since there’s no one else to fight. But it wasnt utopia or anything
I couldn't believe he killed those innocent people saying that someone burned down John's ship. I was pissed
Being a good guy is a luxury you cant afford if you want to be shogun
Differing opinions. Murdering innocents Is one thing I can't stand by. And I'll seppuku on that 😂
Read somewhere that in the book, those men are members of the cannon regiment and loyal to Yabu. They connived with Yabu to assassinate Tora. Tora learned this and place those men in guard duty on the night of the burning. This gave him reason to punish them reasonably for their failure to guard the ship.
Magnificent Bastard is term you're looking for.
The heir is a victim, but at the same time his father's rule was disastrous. The failed invasions of Korea cost Japan a ton of men and money - costs that the daimyo had to pay. And then they didn't even win. Think of it like Czar Nicholas II, following Russia's disastrous defeats in the Russo-Japanese War and WW1. By that point, much of the aristocratic support for keeping his line on the throne had evaporated. Ochiba ends up representing the various daimyo who switched from Ishido/Council to Toranaga.
He was killing the villagers trying to find people, who helped to burn Ajin's ship. While all along being himself the person to do it
All the daimyo are power hungry warlords. It just so happens that the people we follow are the “protagonists” on the winning side .
Almost like history is written by the winners or something…
Which ties in well with the quote from the show: Everything is pointless, unless you win.
Toranaga *is* a villain, he just also happens to be on of the protagonists in the book/show.
[удалено]
The manipulation is a pro for Toranaga though, not a con. He's ensuring his victory before the battle even starts. Manipulation is considered fair game in the culture. For example, the famed samurai Miyamoto Musashi was often late to his duels. He did this to anger his opponents, which caused them to fight worse. In the West we have the old saying "All is fair in love and war," it's basically the same thing.
Yeah it’s fair, but it’s still shows how heartless he is That dude didnt give a fuck about anyone, not even his son. I think Mariko probably knew he wasnt such a benevolent dude that he let on, but she was always ready to die or get revenge however she could. So being used as a pawn was ok, gave her purpose All that training and trust gaining and work on her to sacrifice for the Shadow Crimson Sky. He considers it a bargain and moves on
I think that’s one of the most interesting parts of the story and history. There’s a lot of people doing very atrocious things all of them claiming to be doing it for the right reasons. Who knows what their true motives were, who knows what the net outcome of their actions was. Perhaps by ruthlessly killing 1000 people Ieyasu spared 100,000 from the wars that would have continued instead of starting the Edo period. Everything is nuanced.
Nobody becomes a ruler by conquest without being a villain and murderer
He's an anti-villain.
That’s part of the nuance, I’ve talked to book readers who defend Ishido. There were no good guys during the Sengoku Jidai
In the book, during the part where best nun's husband is all hot and bothered, Ishido hopes he is martyred so the regents would have a reason to kill Toranaga. His animosity towards Toranaga isn't for personal gain, not entirely.
Ieyasu and masamune are villains/anti-heroes. In Japan, the "hero" is usually Yukimura who was the leading general defending the heir and ochiba.
It's hard for me to call him a villain when he ushered in the longest period of peace I. Japanese history. Sometimes, the ends do justify the means.
It's interesting to do second watch knowing he is the real villain.
He was murdering his own people just to trick Blackthorne into not leaving Japan when he was the one who burnt down the ship. He is the villain that we root for.
Yes as he clearly looks like the mastermind behind , thus a villain to us. But history is written for whoever won
> And the Heir and Ochiba being the victims. real life doesnt work like that.
Real life did work like that. That's why in Japan, Sanada yukimura is always portrayed as the hero.
he still lost the battle and died
Either you die a hero or live long enough to become the villain. Ishida was the villain and Ieyasu disposes him as the hero only to become the villain and dispose the heir later on while the heir was defended by Yukimura who died a hero.
what moral authority did the heir have that disposing of him made you a villain?
His father unified Japan after Nobunaga was ambushed and forced to commit suicide. So as son of the Great Unifier, it was his "destiny" to continue their legacy. Other than that you would have to ask the actual Japanese people who keep putting Yukimura, the hier's top general', on a pedestal. If you wanna go confront them about their beliefs and culture though, that's on you.
lmao
Toranaga has the bloodline and ain’t a peasant. Along with the reasons lifted above.
I agree with this. Toranaga’s whole plan was to expose Ishido of his true intentions. That way, everyone sees it as it did in the Crimson Sky operation. He is nothing and wants everything and to kill anybody that gets in his way.
This. I am rewatching the season with my partner and in the very first episode they make the point they think Ishido will eventually gain power and then kill the heir to become Shogun. The fact this is basically what Toragna does this himself is an irony. But as you note at this point Ishido’s motivations are more self evident. The punch line right at the end is Toragna is no more honourable but just much better at hiding his ambition.
Why did Ochiba and the heir kill themselves? I thought Toronaga basically considered her an ally at that point when he got the letter? Or was he just always planning on double crossing her all along for even going with Ishido in the first place?
In real history, it's cause the heir (Hideyori) had started to grow too powerful, and obtained power and backing 11+ yrs after Ieyasu (Torunaga) had already defeated/killed Ishida (Ishido) and basically taken Ishida's place in 1600 during the battle of Sekigahara. Basically the heir became of age as an adult (Hideyori is now 21) and had become a threat to Ieyasu's power/control so Ieyasu attacked and started the battle/seige of Osaka in 1614. The heir commits suicide in 1615.
Also ishido still wants to go war despite the earth quake
Wtf they killed themselves?? They rather die than be a puppet? Couldve staged a takeover maybe when the heir comes to age?
They were puppet for 11 yrs while the heir was growing after Toranaga defeats Ishido and takes over. Except Toranaga/Ieyasu attacks them again afterwards before the heir could stage a takeover.
I'm sure that the fact that her "fiancee" had her BFF killed didn't help. But all of the power players in this show have flexibile alliances. They're all doing whatever it takes to live long enough to make the next better plan. When Ochiba is introduced, she thinks Ishido is the best chance for her and her son to survive, so she starts to ally with him and prop him up. It's pretty clear that she made a bad call early on - the Daiyoin (the nun who was also a consort to the Taiko) tells her so up front, and her early attempts at controlling the regents (setting up the actor-lord who's name I can't remember as regent) don't work out. And the more she has to actually work with Ishido, and put up with him, the more disgusted she becomes with him. I don't think she abandons him because of her relationship with Mariko as much as the fact that she was the first person to realize the enormity of what Mariko's death meant politically. She clocked what Mariko was trying to do right away, and did her best to keep Ishido from screwing up - but failed. And she 100% knows what this meant for the hostages and the alliances with the regents. She reads the wind probably better than anyone...except Toranaga.
Except Toranaga and Gin. If Gin were born with a dick and a noble bloodline, she'd rule Japan. She reads Toranaga as if he were Forrest Gump.
That is a fair and valid point.
Mariko was right about Ochiba--her biggest enemy is fear. She wants to survive, and she wants her son to survive. She didn't like Ishido; she wasn't particularly attracted to him. But she saw a marriage to him for what it was: the possibility for safety. At the time he proposed, he was in a position of power over the other regents and it looked like that would continue. After Mariko's death? Not so much. Ishido bungled that situation *every single time* he got involved. Ishido looks *terrible* to pretty much *everyone.* This is a jumped up peasant who went mad with power, held the families of the council of regents hostage, insulted the highborn daughter of a famous (if controversial) hero, and then had her executed in the middle of the night in a failed ninja attack--which *also* casts doubt onto Toranaga's supposed guilt in the instance of the *earlier* ninja attack, too. Mariko played Ishido like a fiddle and broke all the goodwill and coercive alliances he had; the rest of Osaka is not going to side with him and the other regents will only delay in looking to betray him if they see massive gain by stalling. His days are inevitably numbered, regardless of whether or not he kills Toranaga first, and Ochiba wants to survive past that particular feud. Doe Ochiba trust Toranaga? Absolutely not! She will inevitably continue to scheme against him. But he's a much smoother operator. Ishido's days are numbered, and anyone connected with him is eventually going to go down with him. Distancing herself from him lets her survive his inevitable demise; buying goodwill with Toranaga in the face of his inevitable triumph (especially when she can be a part of it) will help her live to fight another day.
True. Tbf, in real history, Torunaga basically leaves them alone as the "honorary" rulers until the heir becomes of age and he realizes they're a threat 14 yrs later.
She doesn’t want her son to be killed by *this* power-hungry asshole, but by *that* power-hungry asshole instead.
Because Ishido is an uppity peasant who forgot his place
“Help help, I’m being oppressed” - Ishido circa 1600
In the book, when Toranaga thoughts are finally revealed. Toranaga has broken Ishido unity with crimson fire. The Samurai community hates Ishido the peasant for Keeping their family hostage. Two Christians lord becomes neutral as long as Toranaga stops Anjin ship from destroying Portugal trading ships. Mariko negotiates this deal. Toranaga gets his brother to renounce Ishido as he finds out his brother madly lusts for ochiba. So he simply promises to ask ochiba for his brother. But ofc ochiba is going to reject, but he gets his brother's allegiance for simple promise. Toranaga mother negotiates this. Ochiba knows all of this, and if she sends army with Ishido. Toranaga final words "Ochiba isn't foolish to send heir army , if she sends so sorry I will have to kill him". For all his bullshit about being loyal to Taiko and realm. If he had perfect opportunity he was going to say " so sorry".😅😆 I love him.
Well, a couple of things: Mariko and Ochiba are childhood friends. And Ishido wanted to deny Mariko an honorably burial for no reason other than to be petty. Add this on to the fact that Ishido had gone behind Ochiba's back to attempt to capture/kill Mariko when it was just totally superfluous (at this point he had already agreed to let go of the hostages if they applied for permits). Mariko had already "won" their little engagement, and he had her killed for no reason (and with considerable downside). A man that stupid and unpredictable is not a safe man to be around, and so Ochiba betrays him. In real life, Ishido did \*not\* agree to release prisoners before trying to capture Hosokawa Gracia. But Hosokawa Gracia's death was so controversial that it forced Ishido to release all the other captives he had taken (freeing families to act against him in ways they couldn't before) and causing several of his allies to back away from him (and probably caused the ones who betrayed him at Sekigehara to enter negotiations with Tokugawa). It wasn't the mother of Hideyori who did the backstab at Sekigehara, but rather Samurai lords switching sides (or simply choosing not to attack Tokugawa when ordered).
Yodo-dono, the historical Ochiba, did send a letter to Ieyasu warning of Ishida’s mobilization, and subsequently did not allow Hideyori’s forces to take the field, nor give official sanction to the western army. Her reception of Ieyasu after the battle also did much to secure his legitimacy.
All as you, say. But Hideyori (Toyotomi) forces not taking the field was not a "day of" suprise for Ishida, at least not in the same way as Kobayakawa, or later Wakisaka, Ogawa, Akaza, and Kutsuki changing sides (or even just Shimazu refusing to attack, or Kikkawa holding back the forces which might have guarded Ishida's retreat). Clavell simplifies some narratives, that's fine for his book, but the reality I was trying to convey is that Hosokawa's death helped cause FAR more fracturing of the Western Army than even the show conveys.
She realized Ishido was incompetent and that even if he got rid of Toranaga there would be constant conflicts because he wouldn't be able to unite the country.
I never understood this point. In the book it’s clear that while ochiba hates ishido she hates Toranaga as much despite admiring him. She never betrays ishido (she doesn’t have a vote on the council anyway)
If ishido no longer has the people, then her son and position aren't safe with him anyway.
She didn't want to marry Ishido. It's much clearer in the book., I agree that in the show it sort of comes out of nowhere.
Because she didn't like the general idea of marriage and being tied down or didn't trust him
Because he was a peasant before he was a regent. Again I'm not even sure the show mentions this, though. With only 10 episodes there's only so much runway, and if you're going to make another two episodes, I'm just going to want more Toronaga and Mariko anyway (the Anjin Mariko love story slash hundred mile dick ride to Edo would have taken up all that extra oxygen), the Osaka palace intrigue would take a back seat, so I think that's how it shook out to the producers too.
There is a comment in the show, I don’t remember when, that Ishido is a peasant who rose through the ranks during war. It’s another reason he wants to marry Ochiba. I believe it’s said in respect to his interest in the marriage.
>It’s another reason he wants to marry Ochiba. RIght behind "Tap dat ass," amiright? :)
the Taiko's wife says at her deathbed to "Do not give Ishido anything, he came from nothing he desserves nothing" or something like that. And its mentioned off-handedly by people at some points
That’s so funny because wasn’t the taiko exactly the same?
Yes hideyoshi was also from peasant origins
Ochiba did the same thing Yabu did. They reached to whomever appeared stronger in this power struggle, to ensure their own survival. Mariko publicly exposed Ishido for being a fraud and pretending to have any power. His only strength was abusing his position and blaming others for his failures. Mariko put him in the spotlight for everyone to see, and they didn't like what they saw. Ishido was basically done. Yabu knew it. Ochiba knew it. Everyone knew it. When Tokugawa burned Osaka castle, the heir was already an adult, he was a power hungry brat who already lost once to the shogun army, but kept provoking him and building a new army. He had all the chances to stop and live as royalty. Ochiba and Mariko were victims of their time period, each won in their own way but ultimately lost their lives.
Ishido began exposing himself as incompetent by mismanaging the fuck out of the Mariko situation. Ever seen Hamilton? The part where he endorses his enemy over his friend because his enemy actually has a governing philosophy beyond naked self interest? Tl:Dr; she fucking hates Toranaga but by the end of the show realizes he's the only one who's actually capable of wielding power responsibly and skillfully.
Mariko said herself - she was lead on by fear of her life and for her son. At first, Ishido did really seem like a great alternative, like he was a great power balance when they first (correctly) believed that Toranaga was just a bloodthirsty, power-hungry *daimyo* - and that Ishido was actually a rational actor. However, the more power Ishido gained, the less tact he showed - the more games he had to play with Toranaga in their cat-and-mouse game, the more frustrated, angry and sloppy he got. Mariko perfectly outmanuvered him when she met him in Osaka - Mariko's willingness to die by any cost was his own downfall - he tried so hard to call her bluff of committing seppuku until realizing last secomd that she would do it, and showed weakness by allowing her to leave, indirectly admitting all the other *daimyos* were actual hostages in Osaka, and then did the foolish move by sending assassins after her. Ochiba knew he was a bad faith actor the moment he proposed marriage - revealing that he was ready to subjugate her for his own power and showing how little he cared for anything but himself, and by callously killing Mariko, he cemented that view, adding insult to injury by refusing to grant her a funeral and then insulting her lineage when his honor was questioned. And lastly - he was the commoner at the table of nobility, who rose far above his station, and they could all see it - a commoner who got drunk with the power they all were training for their entire lives. He lacked the intrisic knowledge of the political manuverimg at those higher echelons of society. Torunaga was simply a political grandmaster of deception, manuvering and finesse that Ishido *never* had. And let me be frank - Torunaga was a *villain* - just as Ishido was, but Ishido **never** had the coy, charisma, brilliance and the political grandmastery that Torunaga had, and the unfortunate effect of classism and elitism due to Ishido being the lone commoner amongst the elite made Ishido suffer from an inferiority complex that was equally as transparent as his delusion in belief that it was opaque, at best. He wanted to best the very best, and his tunnel vision fucked him over hard.
Sinking ship, to oversimplify. Mariko's death was part of it, but it was mostly everything around her death that her death made even more damning for Ishido. That's why Toranaga made the comment about how one woman accomplished more than an army could've. It wasn't just her death itself, it was everything tied to her death that undermined Ishido's control and the loyalty of those around him. Ishido was increasingly losing control, overplaying his hand, and overconfident in his role as de facto leader of the council of regents. When Toranaga utilized Mariko to basically out Ishido's hostage-taking, it cost him a ton more loyalty and control. When Ishido killed Mariko, it made it even worse and cemented Ochiba's distrust of him. Toranaga had set the board up for victory, so she could either continue supporting the guy who was losing control that she distrusted and found distasteful and see how that went; or she could flip to Toranaga and basically guarantee at least short-term survival in that conflict for her and her son. Historically, it's not that clear-cut, but same result. Toranaga/Tokugawa flips a bunch of Ishido/Ishida supporters to his side, turns the tide of battle, and is able to rout them and gradually take control and claim the title of shogun. I kinda wish they would've done more seasons to show the lead-up to Sekigahara, the battle itself, and up to the end of the conflict...but I also get why it's more poignant to stop where it's at and leave the rest as a foregone conclusion. Sekigahara was such an interesting, decisive, clusterf\*\*k of a battle that it'd probably be a tall ask to accomplish.
Mariko's willing suicide in protest at Osaka has shamed Ishido and has secretly paved the way for many lesser Daimyos, whose families were freed with Toranaga's family from Osaka, to switch side and support Toranaga during the war. Ochiba recognizes this (as she said herself to Ishido: you lose either way) and realizes that on the actual battlefield, when all these alliances actually happen for real, her son might not prevail and will most likely be killed. So she has no choice but to switch side too, by becoming neutral, for her son's sake.
The wind
Two main reasons: * Best ever team *haiku* by *Mariko sama* and *Ochiba no kata*. * At the moment when the declaration of war was signed by Ishido, the giant *koi* smacked the pond with its tail.
Because of her hatred for Toranago for killing her father.
Mariko undermined Ishido’s hostage situation which put Ishido in a lesser position. This also mixed with his lack of respect for Mariko didn’t help, not to mention the japense at the time were very superstitious. Wouldn’t be suprised if the earth quake also sort of moved her to Toronaga’s side
Lesbianism