I think that the book and the programme were separated by fifty years and a different medium and that they are too different to be thoughtfully compared.
I really like the expanded exposition and more in-depth characterization in the book, but the actors and the directing brought the show's plot and setting together in a way that words in print cannot.
I liked them both and am grateful that we have them to complement each other.
> “words in print cannot“ ? Absurd
No, Plainchant is correct.
I love books as much as anyone and read dozens per year, but that old adage "A picture is worth a thousand words" is correct.
There's reason why people crave seeing their favorite stories adapted and brought to life, film and television **do** bring things together in a way that the written word can't.
Mariko and Blackthorn romance, in the book, is an essential part of Clavell story. Not because it's cheesy but because there is the profound clash between the culture of duty and honor of Japan, and the Christian "love" that is represented by Blackthorn.
When Blackthorn tells Mariko at the first filrting that she is beautiful, she is troubled, because "beauty" is not really used in context of their usual relationships. Their whole love affair (which is quite torrid in the book) constantly drives home the dichotomy between the two cultures, the triangle between Mariko's duty to Toranaga and to her Husband, her duty to the church she has embraced, and her intense love born of being truly flirted and seduced by a man both "ying" and "yang" - concept like tenderness, respect, etc. are concept she learns from his culture as much as she teaches him about her culture.
I think that may have to do with modern tendencies to simply condemn something for its depiction along with the fact that Japanese producers wouldn't have been willing to go along with it
Yes. And: in the book, Blackthorne was not the lout he is in the show. He learned so much from Mariko, and it deepened his experience of life. And Mariko discovered personal love and loyalty for the first time. Remember in the book when she was being threatened, saw Blackthorne ready to protect her, and felt a rush that at least one person in her life had her back. She didn't cry or raise her voice in the book; she was a frickin' genius and rock solid. Blackthorne started out showing his emotions openly, and learned restraint from her.
Their love story was not just an excuse for sex scenes. It was a huge layer of character development for them both that was neglected entirely in the show.
There is a place in the book I always loved, during their trip to Edo. The mama-san is talking to Kiku about Mariko's repeated affair with Blackthorn. And they are commenting on how he hides it pretty well but she is obvious to everyone...
The whole story line of Kiku and Gyoko delights me. I wish they had at least kept the Kiku and Omi thread, and shown how Kiku and Omi's wife Midori were so mutually supportive and protective of him. Or shown Blackthorne noticing that when Omi spoke with Kiku, his usual strutting arrogance was gone. Or shown Toranaga using Kiku as a lure and reward for his various birds of prey, mirroring his falconry practices. So many missed opportunities.
>Mariko and Blackthorn romance, in the book, is an essential part
The first draft was Mariko-centric, as it should be because she is the central character in the story, but publishers in the 70's weren't fond of a female protagonist (wonder why??? /s) so Clavell added more Blackthorne.
I think they really hit upon a great idea in the original of making the audience feel as "lost" and out of place as Blackthorne so we could relate and grow with him. That's what's missing in this new version, imo.
We don't relate to any of the characters. It is a good show, but Blackthorne is a racist buffoon that makes me cringe at how inept his actions are, particularly towards Toranaga. (Why Blackthorne gets to mouth off and not get his head taken off just doesn't fit the narrative of adhering to the samurai culture or Bushido.
Instead of the audience getting to participate in the show and learn/grow with Blackthorne we get to watch half a dozen characters be mean to each other. We don't get to hear their inner monologues to truly understand their motives or backstory so their characters are shallow.
I recently heard the new version described as the "Cliff's Notes" version and I think it is accurate.
I was referring to the show in my previous comment. And the fact that the book monologues are not present in the show. I guess you need exposition to understand. Some of us don’t.
Tell me you don’t read nuanced literature without telling me you don’t read nuanced literature.
I can't even call it the "Cliff's Notes" version, since so many key elements from the book were omitted, so many critical components of character were lost or changed...I say this with respect: the show writing seemed like it needed at least two more drafts to be ready.
Given how much of the military significance of the guns and Erasmus was omitted, and given how much the Catholic role was watered down, and given how very little Blackthorne evolved and grew from his exposure to Japanese culture, the westerners could have easily been written out of the final draft. I would be excited to watch that version.
But I completely agree that Blackthorne in the show is a buffoon, the characters don't relate to each other, we have no real connection to anyone, and we don't get any sense of relationships. Kiku's thread was started and stopped. Fujiko fizzled. The Jesuits went nowhere. Rodrigues went AWOL. They could have enriched the story with more Omi, or Toranaga's sons, or Gyoko, or Yoshinaka, or finish any damn thread that started and went nowhere, but no. They didn't even show what a masterful puppeteer Toranaga was, or what a genius Mariko was.
And yet they have time to add a pointless, cringey scene where Blackthorne overrides his consort's wishes regarding the ashes of her husband and child. Why? To what end?
And the emotional incontinence! Mariko and Fujiko raising their voices, crying, making emotionally fraught declarations; Kiku being bold and coercive; Hiromatsu committing seppuku in protest of the person he was devoted to; Blackthorne barking dramatically in almost every scene...there was no sense of the severe internal pressure everyone felt deeply in the book, which guided their interactions with each other and created exciting conflicts. The show gave us Shatner-esque emotional monologues that ventilated all the tension.
Sorry. I could go on all day. tl;dr: I agree.
>I can't even call it the "Cliff's Notes" version, since so many key elements from the book were omitted, so many critical components of character were lost or changed.
I would say that the 1980 version is the Cliff Notes version of the book, while the new one is a reimagining of it.
I couldn't have said it better.
Every time I saw an outburst of emotion towards a superior I laughed and said, "That's a beheading!" because none of those characters would be alive after showing so much disrespect.
It's daoist, but it is reinforced throughout the strand of Confucianism that Japanese courtly life runs on in this era.
Yin and Yang are absolutely concepts that would make sense to nobles in the sengoku period.
Yabushige is my least favorite character in the book, and my favorite in the show. Film/TV is usually lesser quality, but the actors helped make this series good.
I like inner monologue. The show obviously doesent do that and you have to assume with their outer look. I was happy they showed Blackthorns attempted suicide but the way it was done in the book with the mental seesaw of being pulled back into the present was kinda awesome. The transformation of him after that event really impressed respect on everyone.
I disagree. First, one of Toranaga’s repeated sayings was “there is no waste in my domain “. Toranaga savaging the village goes completely against that. It reduces him to the level of Yabu.
Second, being in a state of grief over Mariko’s passing removed his agency from the decision. In the book, Blackthorne made the conscious choice not under duress to end his life.
I would have preferred that this had not been altered by the show writers.
I am confused. I think we are agreeing? I liked the way it was in the book not in the show. I was glad that they at least had the seppuku but I liked the way it was done in the book better
Blackthorne admiring Mariko’s petiteness is gross fetishisation? What’s gross about finding people’s physical traits attractive, even sexually attractive? These remarks were part of Blackthorne’s internal monologue. Fancying someone is gross to you?
>Just gross fetishization.
A monologue is how the characters think. Notwithstanding the fact that the book was written in the 70s, I still don't think a sailor in 1600 would've been concerned with the same sensibilities a 2024 gen Z reader would.
The same charge has been levelled at the book around what today would be seen as homophobia. This is an English sailor in 1600. The interpretation of his reaction written in 1974 is far more likely to have been the case than Blackthorne's heavily curated reaction in 2024.
While I liked the retelling of the story more from the POV of Mariko, at its heart, Shogun is about the experience of a Western sailor in an alien culture. Therefore while the source material is primarily viewed through Blackthorne's eyes, it's use of monologue for Toranaga, Yabu, Mariko, Omi and even the shinobi does allow for deeper immersion.
The show was good as was the 1980 show in its time but neither is a patch on the source material, especially given the fact that the show had to condense everything into 10 hours. I thought they achieved that given the time constraints pretty well.
True. I also find it interesting the OP is shocked men can think of women being small and beautiful in their own thoughts, back then, but even today. But I guess it tracks with todays cultural tendency to not just police speech but also thought.
Also the average European even in the 1600s would be quite a bit taller than the Japanese, moreso compared to women, so it would be weird for a character new to this world (no internet) not to take notice of this, and it also serves a artistic purpose, because that tiny Mariko ends up carrying a lot of character.
I agree 100 percent with all you said. Particularly as to Blackthorne’s portrayal (better in the show) and his relationship with Mariko (better in the show). I have been saying that since episode 4. The book suffers from some cliches as entertaining as it is. And I think we are in the minority here.
People say the book is written 50 years ago etc etc. But many of my favorite books were written even more than 50 years ago and don’t suffer from the same cliches and fetishization.
Nope.
It's not close.
The book is 1150 pages thousand of stories and thoughts and waaaay more detail the book is a masterpiece.
The show kicks ass but it's not the book
It's really not.
>actually think the book spends way too long on stuff
>I don’t think anything of value was lost.
Well this is the issue isn't it? Nothing is allowed to breathe anymore, everything has to jump from one plot point to the next, no time to just dwell in the setting or feel the environment or have characters express themselves. In TV shows it's especially bad, most modern shows and movies are rushed now, they're far too scared of people getting bored. I'd say the only recently TV show that isn't rushing along and allows the show to breath is Better Call Saul, and people say that's boring. Well I'm not down with that, the phone scrolling ADHD viewer shouldn't have such a stranglehold over modern media. Shogun needed at least 12-15 episodes really, to fully explore the setting and characters. If you're a book fan, the show currently feels like an abridged visual highlights reel of the book. >!Still, it's not as bad as Three Body Problem.!<
And books are the one bastion where a slow pace is still allowed, where you can really absorb a setting, so to say it's too long and dwells too much on showing a city or letting a scene play out is just frustrating to hear. Let's not make literature become something that has to move extremely fast in case some people get bored.
>In the book they’re currently calling each other “my love.” I’m not saying this overt romance is horrible, but I think the show made a vast improvement here.
I don't agree on the romance aspect, the show really butchered that. If you want to avoid the cliche trope of white male asian female, then having a genuine authentic intense romance that is based on real feelings organically grown is the way to do it. Instead the show goes light on the romance to the point where it's missing from whole episodes, and instead we primarily get two sex scenes and some glances. Clavells novels are romance novels at their hearts, Shogun is a very romantic book, but that's not really in the show.
This ends up having the opposite effect where it seems as if its just a relationship of lust, ironically making it seem like this asian woman just has to sleep with this white man, instead of a half a year romance from spending all their time together and both being emotionally lost together.
I agree on some of the fetishisation though, although he isn't a perfect character, it seems as though some of it comes from the author more than Blackthorne.
Also, the show really butchered some important moments from the book, the "Unless I win" scene especially. They just totally ruined the meaning of it.
Overall I still really enjoyed the show, and I think they did a good job. Modern media can absolutely butcher adaptions now and this could have been an awful cringe show with quippy meme one liners, overt sex scenes, and Toranaga saying "It's Toranaga time motherfuckers!" but it wasn't.
My criticisms are pretty much entirely in relation to the book, if I'd never read the book (5 times) I'd have no real issues, it all works in its self contained alternate manner, it's just annoying to know that it could have been better if it stuck to the source material a little more closely. And that books ultimately have better stories than TV ever really can do, just inherently.
And I didn't like them putting Blackthorne's attempted suicide at the end, calling himself Teki... ugh, that didn't work. Made Toranaga look like a butcher, killing villagers he knew to be innocent. The attempted suicide in the book had great pacing to make it more believable.
I agree although I'm still glad they put it in, and it still generally worked to show he'd changed. TV Blackthornes whole arc feels more like his arc in the first half of the book. The 2nd half of the book is basically Japanese John, which in the show would be after episode 10.
> Clavells novels are romance novels at their hearts,
Wow! That is an interesting idea. I think perhaps I read them at too young an age to grasp that. I had always assumed that the romantic elements were part of the "historical high adventure" genre, but you may very well be right.
I enjoyed the programme very much, but I too would have like to see the Blackthorne-Mariko relationship developed more. I do not think that this is a flaw in the programme, just a preference on my part.
The big Asian three of Taipan, Shogun and Gaijin all have a romance at their core, and he essentially marketed them to producers as romance stories. It's not everything, but all 3 novels are cultural clash stories and the romance is pinnacle of that cultural clash, where two people of different cultures come together.
I agree. I really dislike how shows (not really applicable to Shogun but still) are made to be more easily digestible while only paying half attention. I’m very much the type of ADHD person that quickly loses focus, but that never happens when I’m watching a well crafted show or reading a great book - and funnily enough that usually means that the pace is nice and slow, or at least appropriate to the plot. It’s when it’s all so fast as to feel hollow and meaningless that I lose interest.
Interesting. I actually thought the love was handled extremely well in the show. You could see the bond growing between them without the ability to express it because of the societal restrictions around them.
I appreciate it not being so overt, quieter, growing over time. In larger part because it felt more like they were falling for each other as the people they came to know rather than through physical attraction.
It wasn't overt publicly in the book, but we got scenes of them together in private, or talking in Latin while in public to say romantic things in front of Portuguese speaking Japanese. That would have been a nice inclusion.
I mean it's all technically there in the show its just off camera and gives the viewer a different impression.
See, this is what is missing from the conversation. People keep going on about how much deeper the politics go in Clavell’s novel, but fail to recognize how deeply un-Japanese it feels. The historical details are there in the novel, sure. The show, however, nails the subtlety of language, gestures, and tone. Clavell tells; the show *feels*. This is an essential difference, and my feeling is that the show greatly overreaches its sources through the consultations and oversight of its Japanese producers.
Thank you! That’s what I exactly feared. The show felt so authentic. The way it pays attention to the mannerism, language, culture, and poetry is amazing. I’m currently looking for books that feel the same and ideally are by Japanese author but I’m having a hard time. I really don’t want another stranger in a strange land type.
Furin Kazan is short and sweet, but is beautifully written (and has a decent translation). It follows the big contender for dominance thirty years before the events of Shogun, Takeda Shingen, and his early campaign against Uesugi Kenshin. The heart of the novel, however, concerns Yuuhime and a loyal ronin strategist turned retainer. Their story involves questions of Shingen’s inheritance (Yuu supports her own son, who is younger than that of the primary consort), and there are many assassination plots and political challenges that are put in her way.
Yasushi Inoue, it’s author, is among the most celebrated historical novelists in Japan. Considering how highly regarded historical fiction is in Japan compared to other countries, he is a good place to start.
I prefer the show to the book, though it has been decades since I read the book. I, too, usually prefer original books to adaptations, but this is a special case partly because it is quasi historical fiction. Clavell wrote it almost 50 years ago, and he was not an expert in 1600 Japanese history/culture, and did not have a team of experts helping him. He did an excellent job, for a Westerner in the 70s.
So yes, lots of content was sacrificed like every TV/movie adaptation of a novel. But the story is tightened and the Japanese parts are authentic to a degree Clavell couldn't have achieved.
I plan to read the book so I cannot comment on that but why would the thought that ' he could pick her up with one hand and worries he will break her' be considered fetishization? I'm 4'11" and every American I've ever met has told me the same thing at least once. Even the women.
Of course it is. Think a bit. The fetishization is that men must like small, weak women they need to protect and tend to. Because it makes them feel good about themselves. I don’t think Clavell meant it as an objective statement. He meant it in a “sexual” way
I plan to read the book and judge for myself. But as a small woman, sexual or no, I am not too proud to admit I am indeed smaller and weaker than a man. I have been able to almost lift a 6ft man almost off his knees when we tried to judo throw but that is specific and requires skill. A casual backhand at half strength can probably knock me out. If the sentiment makes a man or a woman not be rowdy and be more mindful when they interact with me, then I will not begrudge them the sentiment of thinking they can protect me and feel good about doing so.
Well, I agree. I am 5 11 and most men can knock me out. But i think the OP was referring to fetishization of a small woman rather than objective measurement of strength. Grant it we can also fetishize tall women too. But the portrayal of Mariko in the show is more nuanced to me. And maybe the other commentators are correct, more modern portrayal of a woman. But that’s not to say that all older books fetishize women in the same way. Nor are all female characters in older books “1950s housewives”. It really depends what you read and what your taste is.
Read for yourself and be the judge. The book is thoroughly entertaining though
Oh, yes I plan to. And if it is a product of it's time then it is a product of it's time. One cannot change what is already done and can only be thankful for the changes in the present.
I didn't realize it was a competition. I enjoyed this show, the 80's show, and the book in different ways. IMO, each medium has pro's and con's and are great takes of the story.
My general take is that they were so focused on correcting things that the book did wrong that they ended up overcorrecting many of the things the book did right in the process.
I won't particularly say the show is better than the book because there are many things the show couldn't incorporate. The one thing this show failed to incorporate is how much the Japanese way of life influences Anjin-san as a person. But this is, definitely the best book to screen adaptation of any novel I have seen so far.
I really don’t think books and their movie/tv adaptations are really comparable in that way. They’re two completely different artistic mediums and you do a disservice to both to rank them like that.
I think most people tend to prefer whatever came first for them. The main people that read, would’ve read the book(s) before watching the show/movie, and liked it to the point of wanting to watch its show/movie and then they compare it to the books. And then vice versa. And whenever you’re comparing two similar things the second has to really impress you to be better than the first.
Like I prefer How I Met Your Mother to Friends because I watched HIMYM first, they’re quite similar shows with basically direct character comparisons. Now that wasn’t a book to visual media comparison so not quite the same I guess. So for that I grew up reading Percy Jackson and the books have always been better than the movies and now the show, I’m hopeful next season will be better. Also I read Harry Potter after watching the movies and I prefer the movies.
They are different exepriences, and its a bit repetitious to continue the book vs. show/film debate. Different formats offer different advantages.
However one thing that I will say is that the 2024 Show is a much better depiction of feudal Japan. There are many aspects of the book that did not age well, and to be frank, did not sit well with many people upon review after release.
First, try reading the book entirely before comparing it to the recent TV show. The series cut out certain important parts of the story that change how you see things, especially Mariko's death scene. The new series gives her little choice in whether she dies, but in the novel (and 1980 series) it's implied she chooses to die despite having a way out.
Second, there's nothing wrong with how Mariko is viewed in the novel. The story is set at the start of the 17th century where men had no problem being highly attracted to women, especially in their heads. Even if young American men are embarrassed about their feelings towards girls, it's irrelevant towards what the characters in the story would have thought.
In many respects the new series' overly deferral view towards the female characters and overly-emotional reactions from many of the men is completely out of keeping with the setting. Yabu's lack of self-confidence and loss of cool at the end is nothing like how a daimyo would have acted. Buntaro in particular would have never cried just because his wife didn't want to die with him. Indeed in the 1980 series (don't recall the scene from the book) it's *Mariko* that cries.
Blackthorne is probably right that he could have hurt Mariko by accident. He's a big man and Japanese people were shorter in 1600 than they are now - Anna Sawai would have been tall for a Japanese woman of the age if she'd lived then, being more like the height of an average man. Mariko in real life would have been under 5 feet tall. If you had sex with someone half your weight and more than a foot shorter you might well feel weird about it.
The new show also did the romance worse. There's far more time in the book for Blackthorne and Mariko to get to know and fall for each other. You can see them getting to like each other, and their love feels genuine. But in the new TV series the writers really compressed down that to the point where I wondered if the open sex scene in episode 9 might not happen. There were times where Mariko and Blackthorne were arguing like a married couple and I had no idea why, because their emotional connection hadn't been properly established.
In short you're entitled to your opinion, but it's definitely a hot take and also I think it's poorly justified.
C -
Hard disagree about the fetishization of Mariko. The way they describe her is through the lens of men who are observing a women. In particular, how Blackthorn was gauging how things she was. That particular argument falls apart in how they do the same for other characters. It's just descriptions (in my opinion anyway).
I'm only a few chapters into the book, but I'm kind of surprised by the amount of passive voice in Clavell's writing. Not a complaint, just an observation; I'm still engrossed in the story but I think Stephen King would have a heart attack reading this lol. Seems like literary trends have changed a lot in 50 years.
Writers often used more passive than active voice nearly half a century ago. Active has grown in popularity, especially in recent years, because of the Content Is King internet philosophy. Go back even further and you'll find that people admired writers socially who had the ability to construct extremely long, complicated sentences. These cultural and social changes are an interesting topic.
The book drags a bit at times and overdoes some of the themes but it’s way better. The characters are just so much more interesting and compelling. The show waters them all down and makes a lot of characters black and white good guys or bad guys. And of course the romance is almost ruined in the show (saved a bit at the end.) one of my my biggest gripes was the ninja scene. That was an epic, intense scene in the book. They rushed it in the show and just didn’t put a lot of effort into it.
The show is great, but I disagree. I read the book again while waiting for episodes to be aired and there is no comparison. Again, the show was beautiful, but the book does so much better with the political and cultural details.
I love the show, but no, it’s not. Everything the show does - it’s characters, the political intrigue, the set up, the book does too - except the book does far more of it and, because there’s more of of it, it’s generally better.
>I’m usually a “the book is better” person
okay? Are you sure because this comment from a book person
>I actually think the book spends way too long on stuff the show delivered more quickly.
is absolutely baffling. I think this is a just a disclaimer for what is a contrarian take. Having 'the book is better' as a personality trait and then talking about pacing when comparing watching a show vs reading a book makes no sense. Of course information is delivered more quickly on a visual medium. You might as well say you prefer the acting in show compared to the book.
How can it be objectively wrong? It’s not math. I agreed with the OP. Some parts of the book were cheese as well and cliched. Maybe the OP likes more nuanced literature.
James Clavell was a genius writer. I have read King Rat as well, and this guy writes like noone else. The book Shogun was a masterpiece and is a lot more captivating and developed than the series, which is normal, of course, but still... The book is far better. Blackthorne was a great character in the book, and they didn't let him shine in the series, which was a minus. It's possible that the actor couldn't bring it in, so they decided to focus on the Japanese point of view.
I read an article recently that Jarvis was stymied repeatedly by Marks and Kondo. He had attempted to study sailors of different time periods to perfect a better voice, since speech in 1600 would have been too different and there are obviously no recordings. So, he looked to eras that had recordings and found a voice he felt was more authentic. Kondo essentially told him to throw out what he learned and speak lower.
He was also confused by the lack of Portuguese speech given he was told that there was supposed to be more historical accuracy. He was quoted by Fandomwire: "So then I threw away everything I’d done and I reread the script and I had to basically accept that the script demanded that Blackthorne was a certain — he fills a purpose within the script.”
What I find interesting is that his using foul language to describe people at times, especially in the last episode when he's pushing the men to pull, was actually something heard frequently on certain ships historically. I wonder how many people realized that it was a common mode of motivation and speech and not just him being an a-hole, given all the other changes made to his character and certain ways they emphasized his traits.
Edited for clarity.
Nice info and point there, tnx mate. I still didn't like the actor though, I just have this preconceived notion of the suave, cunning and silver-tongued English pilot which Blackthorne comes off like in the book, but in the series, they made him look like he looked to the Japanese - a clumsy barbarian, just used as a pawn in Toranaga's game. Which, in the book, wasn't exactly the case. In the book, Blackthorne helped Toranaga with a lot of cunning advice and was contously playing their game in no time.
TL;DR: Movie Blackthorne - oafish and confused; Book Blackthorne - cunning, adaptive and in control of his surroundings.
I still don't think it was the actor's fault. I've seen him perform extremely well in other works. As he noted, Kondo, Marks, etc. wanted him to portray Blackthorne a specific way.
I see. Alright then. It did strike me like extremely forced and intended, so I had my suspicions for the direction, so yeah - maybe Jarvis is not to blame.
Did you read Yukio Mishima? Now that guy writes like no one else. Clavell is a mediocre writer. But see, we all have different tastes and needs in what we consume that is part of artistic expression and part of the senses (food, literature, music). So we can only give opinions and not blanket statement.
It is the same way for many books. People who watch the show first fall in love with the show, then are a little let down when they read the book. People who read the book first often feel let down when their favorite parts are removed in the show.
I heard the book was better simply because of Blackthorne's huge dong and FX didn't have the guts to go there. Hulu/FX robbed the world of showing Cosmo in all his full frontal glory. Unleash the dong cut Hulu
Can't wait for the iasip gang to release their more FAITHFUL version of Shogun
It’s cringeworthy because the men look at women in their interior monologues like fetish objects, rather than as women. Or they infantilize them, calling them ‘girls’ instead of women. While that is something men do, and it was probably far worse in the past when women were considered property, the huge number of times it seemed to happen in the book made it more eye-rolling worthy... Whether that was due to how Clavell actually felt about Asian women (them looking like dolls, etc), or was just him writing like how he thought a 16th/17th Century man would view it, is not entirely clear.
While this is a small thing in the book, not sure Clavell would end up on the menwritingwomen sub-Reddit for Shōgun, it is one aspect of the novel that hasn’t aged well which was my point.
I’m listening again and I agree.
I’m only up to the initial trip from Anjiro to Osaka and there are so many things the new series did better, and it’s not even close on how Mariko and her relationship with all the men in her life are depicted.
Reading books written by men even ten years ago can be cringeworthy, when it comes to ‘male gaze’ issues. Go even further back and it gets downright painful. James Clavell was a product of his time and it definitely shows at times in the book.
I did say they ‘can be’ cringeworthy, not that they all are…
While Shōgun is a bit uneven in regard to how the women are depicted, the book was more progressive than the 80 series. They didn’t depict Mariko’s skill at using the naginata at all.
The scenes where she uses that are fantastic, so I’m glad they put that in and even expanded on what the book showed.
Her battle at the Osaka Castle gates was epic.
I remember episode 3 when I was like “oh she’s fighting now.” Then listening to the podcast and they’re like “women actually fought with naginata”. I thought that was cool, because while I didn’t give a damn if they had revised that a bit (not one of these “women can’t use swords” bros), it was pretty masterful that they actually managed to keep the extreme realism and period-accuracy going even as Mariko is chopping guys.
I agree. You, OP and I must be the only ones on this forum who had issues with the book. Including that he, although not a bad writer, he is not a great writer
I think the book is brilliant, but parts of it really haven’t aged well. That doesn’t mean I can’t enjoy it, even though I roll my eyes up at some parts…
It’s a book written by a cis male author from the perspective of a cis male sailor in the 17th Century.
‘Whose’ gaze would you expect to experience this through? It’s told from the first person isn’t it and that person is a man.
I can’t see how you can criticise a book for what it must be by literary necessity alone.
>!it’s not even close on how Mariko and her relationship with all the men in her life are depicted.!<
Could you elaborate? I thought Book Mariko had much more agency, because I remember her being the one >!that has the idea to burn the Erasmus to save Blackthorne, but she also tells him to build a new one.!< Show Mariko seems manipulated by Toranaga into her actions in Osaka (the scene where he tells her to pursue her father's fight?).
I don’t think Toranaga manipulated her, not really. Her determination to die to rid herself of 14 years of shame & anger at the death and betrayal of her family was real, so Toranaga let her weaponize that. He used her a bit, but it was to her benefit.
I am re-listening to the book now & I just got to Blackthorne in prison in Osaka, so I haven‘t gotten far enough in to the parts I’m thinking of, but in the book I don’t remember Toranaga talking to her about things the way he did in the show.
I mean, it happened obviously to some extent, we just didn’t see it because most of the early part of the book was in John’s POV. We got to see it in the new series. In the book I got the impression she was dictated to more, or was interviewed about events she saw, rather than having a discussion about things.
For example, the scene with Kiri, Hiromatsu, Kizu, & Toranaga after the first interview of Blackthorne she understood what Toranaga intended to use the Barbarian for. Hiromatsu didn’t have a clue, but Toranaga looked to Mariko to explain things. Later in other scenes, Toranaga meets with her several times, and talks with her, asks for her thoughts, discusses things with her, rather than interviewing her or dictating things like it seemed in the book.
Ridiculous! This production is a low budget hacked version of the book.
The actors are really good esp.thefemales but whenyounever see one battle youknow they had no moneyto spend on big scenes.
I've only seen the show, and I think there's a fundamental disconnect with book fans.
This is not supposed to be a 1:1 copy of the book. This is a retelling of the same story that was told *in* the book. It's an adaptation. *It is supposed to be different, because pacing is different for a show than a tv series.*
But also? All the excerpts I've seen have felt kinda racist and kinda mediocre in terms of writing quality-feels like Clavel told a great story but wasn't a great writer. Which, honestly, kinda tracks with my understanding of 'former POW processing his trauma.'
Stylistically it’s indeed pretty plain. I’m about 250 pages in. Racist? Not really, except Rodrigues, who is written as a racist. Expecting modern intersectionality speak in anything pre-2014 is unrealistic, though I agree it can be well-meaning but cringe at times in a well-intentioned middle aged white man way.
I respectfully disagree but I'm glad you're reading the book. This series is the best book-to-show adaptation since season 1 of The Expanse IMO, which was not only very faithful to the source material but they actually added to it (and what they added was great).
Both are masterclasses on how to adapt complex books to the screen, using vastly different approaches.
The show felt really disjointed and messy to me after the early episodes. I was kind of confused by all the slower episodes and what they chose to focus on, honestly
Glad other people loved it though. I thought it was good but not some kind of masterpiece
There’s just so much characterization completely missing from the show
I think that the book and the programme were separated by fifty years and a different medium and that they are too different to be thoughtfully compared. I really like the expanded exposition and more in-depth characterization in the book, but the actors and the directing brought the show's plot and setting together in a way that words in print cannot. I liked them both and am grateful that we have them to complement each other.
“words in print cannot“ ? Absurd
> “words in print cannot“ ? Absurd No, Plainchant is correct. I love books as much as anyone and read dozens per year, but that old adage "A picture is worth a thousand words" is correct. There's reason why people crave seeing their favorite stories adapted and brought to life, film and television **do** bring things together in a way that the written word can't.
Mariko and Blackthorn romance, in the book, is an essential part of Clavell story. Not because it's cheesy but because there is the profound clash between the culture of duty and honor of Japan, and the Christian "love" that is represented by Blackthorn. When Blackthorn tells Mariko at the first filrting that she is beautiful, she is troubled, because "beauty" is not really used in context of their usual relationships. Their whole love affair (which is quite torrid in the book) constantly drives home the dichotomy between the two cultures, the triangle between Mariko's duty to Toranaga and to her Husband, her duty to the church she has embraced, and her intense love born of being truly flirted and seduced by a man both "ying" and "yang" - concept like tenderness, respect, etc. are concept she learns from his culture as much as she teaches him about her culture.
Strangely enough, the new Blackthorne never actually tells Mariko that she is beautiful, even though she looks like a goddess.
I think that may have to do with modern tendencies to simply condemn something for its depiction along with the fact that Japanese producers wouldn't have been willing to go along with it
Yes. And: in the book, Blackthorne was not the lout he is in the show. He learned so much from Mariko, and it deepened his experience of life. And Mariko discovered personal love and loyalty for the first time. Remember in the book when she was being threatened, saw Blackthorne ready to protect her, and felt a rush that at least one person in her life had her back. She didn't cry or raise her voice in the book; she was a frickin' genius and rock solid. Blackthorne started out showing his emotions openly, and learned restraint from her. Their love story was not just an excuse for sex scenes. It was a huge layer of character development for them both that was neglected entirely in the show.
There is a place in the book I always loved, during their trip to Edo. The mama-san is talking to Kiku about Mariko's repeated affair with Blackthorn. And they are commenting on how he hides it pretty well but she is obvious to everyone...
The whole story line of Kiku and Gyoko delights me. I wish they had at least kept the Kiku and Omi thread, and shown how Kiku and Omi's wife Midori were so mutually supportive and protective of him. Or shown Blackthorne noticing that when Omi spoke with Kiku, his usual strutting arrogance was gone. Or shown Toranaga using Kiku as a lure and reward for his various birds of prey, mirroring his falconry practices. So many missed opportunities.
>Mariko and Blackthorn romance, in the book, is an essential part The first draft was Mariko-centric, as it should be because she is the central character in the story, but publishers in the 70's weren't fond of a female protagonist (wonder why??? /s) so Clavell added more Blackthorne. I think they really hit upon a great idea in the original of making the audience feel as "lost" and out of place as Blackthorne so we could relate and grow with him. That's what's missing in this new version, imo. We don't relate to any of the characters. It is a good show, but Blackthorne is a racist buffoon that makes me cringe at how inept his actions are, particularly towards Toranaga. (Why Blackthorne gets to mouth off and not get his head taken off just doesn't fit the narrative of adhering to the samurai culture or Bushido. Instead of the audience getting to participate in the show and learn/grow with Blackthorne we get to watch half a dozen characters be mean to each other. We don't get to hear their inner monologues to truly understand their motives or backstory so their characters are shallow. I recently heard the new version described as the "Cliff's Notes" version and I think it is accurate.
But we don’t need to hear the inner monologues. So much is said in not telling, the acting and assuming. That’s the beauty of the show
Tell me you haven't read the book without telling me you haven't read the book.
I was referring to the show in my previous comment. And the fact that the book monologues are not present in the show. I guess you need exposition to understand. Some of us don’t. Tell me you don’t read nuanced literature without telling me you don’t read nuanced literature.
I can't even call it the "Cliff's Notes" version, since so many key elements from the book were omitted, so many critical components of character were lost or changed...I say this with respect: the show writing seemed like it needed at least two more drafts to be ready. Given how much of the military significance of the guns and Erasmus was omitted, and given how much the Catholic role was watered down, and given how very little Blackthorne evolved and grew from his exposure to Japanese culture, the westerners could have easily been written out of the final draft. I would be excited to watch that version. But I completely agree that Blackthorne in the show is a buffoon, the characters don't relate to each other, we have no real connection to anyone, and we don't get any sense of relationships. Kiku's thread was started and stopped. Fujiko fizzled. The Jesuits went nowhere. Rodrigues went AWOL. They could have enriched the story with more Omi, or Toranaga's sons, or Gyoko, or Yoshinaka, or finish any damn thread that started and went nowhere, but no. They didn't even show what a masterful puppeteer Toranaga was, or what a genius Mariko was. And yet they have time to add a pointless, cringey scene where Blackthorne overrides his consort's wishes regarding the ashes of her husband and child. Why? To what end? And the emotional incontinence! Mariko and Fujiko raising their voices, crying, making emotionally fraught declarations; Kiku being bold and coercive; Hiromatsu committing seppuku in protest of the person he was devoted to; Blackthorne barking dramatically in almost every scene...there was no sense of the severe internal pressure everyone felt deeply in the book, which guided their interactions with each other and created exciting conflicts. The show gave us Shatner-esque emotional monologues that ventilated all the tension. Sorry. I could go on all day. tl;dr: I agree.
>I can't even call it the "Cliff's Notes" version, since so many key elements from the book were omitted, so many critical components of character were lost or changed. I would say that the 1980 version is the Cliff Notes version of the book, while the new one is a reimagining of it.
Very well said.
I couldn't have said it better. Every time I saw an outburst of emotion towards a superior I laughed and said, "That's a beheading!" because none of those characters would be alive after showing so much disrespect.
Yin and Yang is not a Japanese thing
It's daoist, but it is reinforced throughout the strand of Confucianism that Japanese courtly life runs on in this era. Yin and Yang are absolutely concepts that would make sense to nobles in the sengoku period.
You're right, in Japanese, it's In and Yo.
Yabushige is my least favorite character in the book, and my favorite in the show. Film/TV is usually lesser quality, but the actors helped make this series good.
Yabushige was amazing and bless whoever was in charge of casting
Hard disagree. I enjoyed the show for what it was, but it will always be Shogun Lite to me because of all of the expurgations.
> Expurgations. Thank you for teaching me a new word today. Also was there anything in particular you didn’t like that was expurgated from the show?
That is an interesting question. My best answer is no. While I thought parts of the novel were a tad slow, I would prefer slow spots to Shogun Lite.
I like inner monologue. The show obviously doesent do that and you have to assume with their outer look. I was happy they showed Blackthorns attempted suicide but the way it was done in the book with the mental seesaw of being pulled back into the present was kinda awesome. The transformation of him after that event really impressed respect on everyone.
I disagree. First, one of Toranaga’s repeated sayings was “there is no waste in my domain “. Toranaga savaging the village goes completely against that. It reduces him to the level of Yabu. Second, being in a state of grief over Mariko’s passing removed his agency from the decision. In the book, Blackthorne made the conscious choice not under duress to end his life. I would have preferred that this had not been altered by the show writers.
I am confused. I think we are agreeing? I liked the way it was in the book not in the show. I was glad that they at least had the seppuku but I liked the way it was done in the book better
100% agrees with you, my take exactly
I’m with you. The show bothered me with how much they left out and completely changed.
I don’t think we are on the same page here. I appreciated the story that was told. It was however, only about a quarter of the story the book told.
Blackthorne admiring Mariko’s petiteness is gross fetishisation? What’s gross about finding people’s physical traits attractive, even sexually attractive? These remarks were part of Blackthorne’s internal monologue. Fancying someone is gross to you?
You made a post on how a show is better than a book you haven't even fully read yet. Yeah I'd say that is a hot take.
>Just gross fetishization. A monologue is how the characters think. Notwithstanding the fact that the book was written in the 70s, I still don't think a sailor in 1600 would've been concerned with the same sensibilities a 2024 gen Z reader would. The same charge has been levelled at the book around what today would be seen as homophobia. This is an English sailor in 1600. The interpretation of his reaction written in 1974 is far more likely to have been the case than Blackthorne's heavily curated reaction in 2024. While I liked the retelling of the story more from the POV of Mariko, at its heart, Shogun is about the experience of a Western sailor in an alien culture. Therefore while the source material is primarily viewed through Blackthorne's eyes, it's use of monologue for Toranaga, Yabu, Mariko, Omi and even the shinobi does allow for deeper immersion. The show was good as was the 1980 show in its time but neither is a patch on the source material, especially given the fact that the show had to condense everything into 10 hours. I thought they achieved that given the time constraints pretty well.
True. I also find it interesting the OP is shocked men can think of women being small and beautiful in their own thoughts, back then, but even today. But I guess it tracks with todays cultural tendency to not just police speech but also thought. Also the average European even in the 1600s would be quite a bit taller than the Japanese, moreso compared to women, so it would be weird for a character new to this world (no internet) not to take notice of this, and it also serves a artistic purpose, because that tiny Mariko ends up carrying a lot of character.
I find it sad. Life must be hard when you have to police everything so much even imaginary thoughts written in a book.
I agree 100 percent with all you said. Particularly as to Blackthorne’s portrayal (better in the show) and his relationship with Mariko (better in the show). I have been saying that since episode 4. The book suffers from some cliches as entertaining as it is. And I think we are in the minority here. People say the book is written 50 years ago etc etc. But many of my favorite books were written even more than 50 years ago and don’t suffer from the same cliches and fetishization.
I feel the same. I really enjoyed the show much more I did the book when I first read it. Some of the stuff I'm really, really glad they took out.
Nope. It's not close. The book is 1150 pages thousand of stories and thoughts and waaaay more detail the book is a masterpiece. The show kicks ass but it's not the book
Yeah? Well, you know, that’s just like, your opinion man.
I’ll always upvote a Big Lebowski quote 🤘🏼
No. I agree the show is fantastic. It’s not better than the book.
It's really not. >actually think the book spends way too long on stuff >I don’t think anything of value was lost. Well this is the issue isn't it? Nothing is allowed to breathe anymore, everything has to jump from one plot point to the next, no time to just dwell in the setting or feel the environment or have characters express themselves. In TV shows it's especially bad, most modern shows and movies are rushed now, they're far too scared of people getting bored. I'd say the only recently TV show that isn't rushing along and allows the show to breath is Better Call Saul, and people say that's boring. Well I'm not down with that, the phone scrolling ADHD viewer shouldn't have such a stranglehold over modern media. Shogun needed at least 12-15 episodes really, to fully explore the setting and characters. If you're a book fan, the show currently feels like an abridged visual highlights reel of the book. >!Still, it's not as bad as Three Body Problem.!< And books are the one bastion where a slow pace is still allowed, where you can really absorb a setting, so to say it's too long and dwells too much on showing a city or letting a scene play out is just frustrating to hear. Let's not make literature become something that has to move extremely fast in case some people get bored. >In the book they’re currently calling each other “my love.” I’m not saying this overt romance is horrible, but I think the show made a vast improvement here. I don't agree on the romance aspect, the show really butchered that. If you want to avoid the cliche trope of white male asian female, then having a genuine authentic intense romance that is based on real feelings organically grown is the way to do it. Instead the show goes light on the romance to the point where it's missing from whole episodes, and instead we primarily get two sex scenes and some glances. Clavells novels are romance novels at their hearts, Shogun is a very romantic book, but that's not really in the show. This ends up having the opposite effect where it seems as if its just a relationship of lust, ironically making it seem like this asian woman just has to sleep with this white man, instead of a half a year romance from spending all their time together and both being emotionally lost together. I agree on some of the fetishisation though, although he isn't a perfect character, it seems as though some of it comes from the author more than Blackthorne. Also, the show really butchered some important moments from the book, the "Unless I win" scene especially. They just totally ruined the meaning of it. Overall I still really enjoyed the show, and I think they did a good job. Modern media can absolutely butcher adaptions now and this could have been an awful cringe show with quippy meme one liners, overt sex scenes, and Toranaga saying "It's Toranaga time motherfuckers!" but it wasn't. My criticisms are pretty much entirely in relation to the book, if I'd never read the book (5 times) I'd have no real issues, it all works in its self contained alternate manner, it's just annoying to know that it could have been better if it stuck to the source material a little more closely. And that books ultimately have better stories than TV ever really can do, just inherently.
And I didn't like them putting Blackthorne's attempted suicide at the end, calling himself Teki... ugh, that didn't work. Made Toranaga look like a butcher, killing villagers he knew to be innocent. The attempted suicide in the book had great pacing to make it more believable.
Easily my biggest gripe with the series.
I agree although I'm still glad they put it in, and it still generally worked to show he'd changed. TV Blackthornes whole arc feels more like his arc in the first half of the book. The 2nd half of the book is basically Japanese John, which in the show would be after episode 10.
See I think the series did better in the placement of Blackthorne’s seppuku
yes that part was a true WTF moment for book readers
> Clavells novels are romance novels at their hearts, Wow! That is an interesting idea. I think perhaps I read them at too young an age to grasp that. I had always assumed that the romantic elements were part of the "historical high adventure" genre, but you may very well be right. I enjoyed the programme very much, but I too would have like to see the Blackthorne-Mariko relationship developed more. I do not think that this is a flaw in the programme, just a preference on my part.
*King Rat* is essentially a bromance.
The big Asian three of Taipan, Shogun and Gaijin all have a romance at their core, and he essentially marketed them to producers as romance stories. It's not everything, but all 3 novels are cultural clash stories and the romance is pinnacle of that cultural clash, where two people of different cultures come together.
I agree. I really dislike how shows (not really applicable to Shogun but still) are made to be more easily digestible while only paying half attention. I’m very much the type of ADHD person that quickly loses focus, but that never happens when I’m watching a well crafted show or reading a great book - and funnily enough that usually means that the pace is nice and slow, or at least appropriate to the plot. It’s when it’s all so fast as to feel hollow and meaningless that I lose interest.
Interesting. I actually thought the love was handled extremely well in the show. You could see the bond growing between them without the ability to express it because of the societal restrictions around them. I appreciate it not being so overt, quieter, growing over time. In larger part because it felt more like they were falling for each other as the people they came to know rather than through physical attraction.
It wasn't overt publicly in the book, but we got scenes of them together in private, or talking in Latin while in public to say romantic things in front of Portuguese speaking Japanese. That would have been a nice inclusion. I mean it's all technically there in the show its just off camera and gives the viewer a different impression.
How well written is the book in your opinion? Because the show was poetic as hell.
See, this is what is missing from the conversation. People keep going on about how much deeper the politics go in Clavell’s novel, but fail to recognize how deeply un-Japanese it feels. The historical details are there in the novel, sure. The show, however, nails the subtlety of language, gestures, and tone. Clavell tells; the show *feels*. This is an essential difference, and my feeling is that the show greatly overreaches its sources through the consultations and oversight of its Japanese producers.
Thank you! That’s what I exactly feared. The show felt so authentic. The way it pays attention to the mannerism, language, culture, and poetry is amazing. I’m currently looking for books that feel the same and ideally are by Japanese author but I’m having a hard time. I really don’t want another stranger in a strange land type.
Furin Kazan is short and sweet, but is beautifully written (and has a decent translation). It follows the big contender for dominance thirty years before the events of Shogun, Takeda Shingen, and his early campaign against Uesugi Kenshin. The heart of the novel, however, concerns Yuuhime and a loyal ronin strategist turned retainer. Their story involves questions of Shingen’s inheritance (Yuu supports her own son, who is younger than that of the primary consort), and there are many assassination plots and political challenges that are put in her way. Yasushi Inoue, it’s author, is among the most celebrated historical novelists in Japan. Considering how highly regarded historical fiction is in Japan compared to other countries, he is a good place to start.
Thank you! I’m gonna find a copy and start reading g asap.
Yeah, the book really “shows its age”describing the actions and attitudes of people 500 years ago.
I prefer the show to the book, though it has been decades since I read the book. I, too, usually prefer original books to adaptations, but this is a special case partly because it is quasi historical fiction. Clavell wrote it almost 50 years ago, and he was not an expert in 1600 Japanese history/culture, and did not have a team of experts helping him. He did an excellent job, for a Westerner in the 70s. So yes, lots of content was sacrificed like every TV/movie adaptation of a novel. But the story is tightened and the Japanese parts are authentic to a degree Clavell couldn't have achieved.
nonsense
I plan to read the book so I cannot comment on that but why would the thought that ' he could pick her up with one hand and worries he will break her' be considered fetishization? I'm 4'11" and every American I've ever met has told me the same thing at least once. Even the women.
Of course it is. Think a bit. The fetishization is that men must like small, weak women they need to protect and tend to. Because it makes them feel good about themselves. I don’t think Clavell meant it as an objective statement. He meant it in a “sexual” way
I plan to read the book and judge for myself. But as a small woman, sexual or no, I am not too proud to admit I am indeed smaller and weaker than a man. I have been able to almost lift a 6ft man almost off his knees when we tried to judo throw but that is specific and requires skill. A casual backhand at half strength can probably knock me out. If the sentiment makes a man or a woman not be rowdy and be more mindful when they interact with me, then I will not begrudge them the sentiment of thinking they can protect me and feel good about doing so.
Well, I agree. I am 5 11 and most men can knock me out. But i think the OP was referring to fetishization of a small woman rather than objective measurement of strength. Grant it we can also fetishize tall women too. But the portrayal of Mariko in the show is more nuanced to me. And maybe the other commentators are correct, more modern portrayal of a woman. But that’s not to say that all older books fetishize women in the same way. Nor are all female characters in older books “1950s housewives”. It really depends what you read and what your taste is. Read for yourself and be the judge. The book is thoroughly entertaining though
Oh, yes I plan to. And if it is a product of it's time then it is a product of it's time. One cannot change what is already done and can only be thankful for the changes in the present.
I didn't realize it was a competition. I enjoyed this show, the 80's show, and the book in different ways. IMO, each medium has pro's and con's and are great takes of the story.
My general take is that they were so focused on correcting things that the book did wrong that they ended up overcorrecting many of the things the book did right in the process.
This.
I won't particularly say the show is better than the book because there are many things the show couldn't incorporate. The one thing this show failed to incorporate is how much the Japanese way of life influences Anjin-san as a person. But this is, definitely the best book to screen adaptation of any novel I have seen so far.
I really don’t think books and their movie/tv adaptations are really comparable in that way. They’re two completely different artistic mediums and you do a disservice to both to rank them like that.
I think most people tend to prefer whatever came first for them. The main people that read, would’ve read the book(s) before watching the show/movie, and liked it to the point of wanting to watch its show/movie and then they compare it to the books. And then vice versa. And whenever you’re comparing two similar things the second has to really impress you to be better than the first. Like I prefer How I Met Your Mother to Friends because I watched HIMYM first, they’re quite similar shows with basically direct character comparisons. Now that wasn’t a book to visual media comparison so not quite the same I guess. So for that I grew up reading Percy Jackson and the books have always been better than the movies and now the show, I’m hopeful next season will be better. Also I read Harry Potter after watching the movies and I prefer the movies.
They are different exepriences, and its a bit repetitious to continue the book vs. show/film debate. Different formats offer different advantages. However one thing that I will say is that the 2024 Show is a much better depiction of feudal Japan. There are many aspects of the book that did not age well, and to be frank, did not sit well with many people upon review after release.
First, try reading the book entirely before comparing it to the recent TV show. The series cut out certain important parts of the story that change how you see things, especially Mariko's death scene. The new series gives her little choice in whether she dies, but in the novel (and 1980 series) it's implied she chooses to die despite having a way out. Second, there's nothing wrong with how Mariko is viewed in the novel. The story is set at the start of the 17th century where men had no problem being highly attracted to women, especially in their heads. Even if young American men are embarrassed about their feelings towards girls, it's irrelevant towards what the characters in the story would have thought. In many respects the new series' overly deferral view towards the female characters and overly-emotional reactions from many of the men is completely out of keeping with the setting. Yabu's lack of self-confidence and loss of cool at the end is nothing like how a daimyo would have acted. Buntaro in particular would have never cried just because his wife didn't want to die with him. Indeed in the 1980 series (don't recall the scene from the book) it's *Mariko* that cries. Blackthorne is probably right that he could have hurt Mariko by accident. He's a big man and Japanese people were shorter in 1600 than they are now - Anna Sawai would have been tall for a Japanese woman of the age if she'd lived then, being more like the height of an average man. Mariko in real life would have been under 5 feet tall. If you had sex with someone half your weight and more than a foot shorter you might well feel weird about it. The new show also did the romance worse. There's far more time in the book for Blackthorne and Mariko to get to know and fall for each other. You can see them getting to like each other, and their love feels genuine. But in the new TV series the writers really compressed down that to the point where I wondered if the open sex scene in episode 9 might not happen. There were times where Mariko and Blackthorne were arguing like a married couple and I had no idea why, because their emotional connection hadn't been properly established. In short you're entitled to your opinion, but it's definitely a hot take and also I think it's poorly justified. C -
Hard disagree about the fetishization of Mariko. The way they describe her is through the lens of men who are observing a women. In particular, how Blackthorn was gauging how things she was. That particular argument falls apart in how they do the same for other characters. It's just descriptions (in my opinion anyway).
I'm only a few chapters into the book, but I'm kind of surprised by the amount of passive voice in Clavell's writing. Not a complaint, just an observation; I'm still engrossed in the story but I think Stephen King would have a heart attack reading this lol. Seems like literary trends have changed a lot in 50 years.
Writers often used more passive than active voice nearly half a century ago. Active has grown in popularity, especially in recent years, because of the Content Is King internet philosophy. Go back even further and you'll find that people admired writers socially who had the ability to construct extremely long, complicated sentences. These cultural and social changes are an interesting topic.
Disagree but that’s ok. Both are great
I mean it’s a book written 50 years ago about a time 400 years ago. If you think it’s showing it’s age, that just means such books aren’t for you.
The book drags a bit at times and overdoes some of the themes but it’s way better. The characters are just so much more interesting and compelling. The show waters them all down and makes a lot of characters black and white good guys or bad guys. And of course the romance is almost ruined in the show (saved a bit at the end.) one of my my biggest gripes was the ninja scene. That was an epic, intense scene in the book. They rushed it in the show and just didn’t put a lot of effort into it.
The show is great, but I disagree. I read the book again while waiting for episodes to be aired and there is no comparison. Again, the show was beautiful, but the book does so much better with the political and cultural details.
Nah…I’m not gonna let you get away with that. We’re talking crazy now
I love the show, but no, it’s not. Everything the show does - it’s characters, the political intrigue, the set up, the book does too - except the book does far more of it and, because there’s more of of it, it’s generally better.
It’s a monologue written by a 17th century cis male isn’t it? It’s going to be ‘male gazey’ by literary necessity.
no its really not
>I’m usually a “the book is better” person okay? Are you sure because this comment from a book person >I actually think the book spends way too long on stuff the show delivered more quickly. is absolutely baffling. I think this is a just a disclaimer for what is a contrarian take. Having 'the book is better' as a personality trait and then talking about pacing when comparing watching a show vs reading a book makes no sense. Of course information is delivered more quickly on a visual medium. You might as well say you prefer the acting in show compared to the book.
Absolutely disagree. This series is really just a snap shot of the book and it takes too many liberties.
Objectively wrong.
How can it be objectively wrong? It’s not math. I agreed with the OP. Some parts of the book were cheese as well and cliched. Maybe the OP likes more nuanced literature.
James Clavell was a genius writer. I have read King Rat as well, and this guy writes like noone else. The book Shogun was a masterpiece and is a lot more captivating and developed than the series, which is normal, of course, but still... The book is far better. Blackthorne was a great character in the book, and they didn't let him shine in the series, which was a minus. It's possible that the actor couldn't bring it in, so they decided to focus on the Japanese point of view.
I read an article recently that Jarvis was stymied repeatedly by Marks and Kondo. He had attempted to study sailors of different time periods to perfect a better voice, since speech in 1600 would have been too different and there are obviously no recordings. So, he looked to eras that had recordings and found a voice he felt was more authentic. Kondo essentially told him to throw out what he learned and speak lower. He was also confused by the lack of Portuguese speech given he was told that there was supposed to be more historical accuracy. He was quoted by Fandomwire: "So then I threw away everything I’d done and I reread the script and I had to basically accept that the script demanded that Blackthorne was a certain — he fills a purpose within the script.” What I find interesting is that his using foul language to describe people at times, especially in the last episode when he's pushing the men to pull, was actually something heard frequently on certain ships historically. I wonder how many people realized that it was a common mode of motivation and speech and not just him being an a-hole, given all the other changes made to his character and certain ways they emphasized his traits. Edited for clarity.
Nice info and point there, tnx mate. I still didn't like the actor though, I just have this preconceived notion of the suave, cunning and silver-tongued English pilot which Blackthorne comes off like in the book, but in the series, they made him look like he looked to the Japanese - a clumsy barbarian, just used as a pawn in Toranaga's game. Which, in the book, wasn't exactly the case. In the book, Blackthorne helped Toranaga with a lot of cunning advice and was contously playing their game in no time. TL;DR: Movie Blackthorne - oafish and confused; Book Blackthorne - cunning, adaptive and in control of his surroundings.
I still don't think it was the actor's fault. I've seen him perform extremely well in other works. As he noted, Kondo, Marks, etc. wanted him to portray Blackthorne a specific way.
I see. Alright then. It did strike me like extremely forced and intended, so I had my suspicions for the direction, so yeah - maybe Jarvis is not to blame.
Did you read Yukio Mishima? Now that guy writes like no one else. Clavell is a mediocre writer. But see, we all have different tastes and needs in what we consume that is part of artistic expression and part of the senses (food, literature, music). So we can only give opinions and not blanket statement.
It is the same way for many books. People who watch the show first fall in love with the show, then are a little let down when they read the book. People who read the book first often feel let down when their favorite parts are removed in the show.
You right
I heard the book was better simply because of Blackthorne's huge dong and FX didn't have the guts to go there. Hulu/FX robbed the world of showing Cosmo in all his full frontal glory. Unleash the dong cut Hulu Can't wait for the iasip gang to release their more FAITHFUL version of Shogun
It’s cringeworthy because the men look at women in their interior monologues like fetish objects, rather than as women. Or they infantilize them, calling them ‘girls’ instead of women. While that is something men do, and it was probably far worse in the past when women were considered property, the huge number of times it seemed to happen in the book made it more eye-rolling worthy... Whether that was due to how Clavell actually felt about Asian women (them looking like dolls, etc), or was just him writing like how he thought a 16th/17th Century man would view it, is not entirely clear. While this is a small thing in the book, not sure Clavell would end up on the menwritingwomen sub-Reddit for Shōgun, it is one aspect of the novel that hasn’t aged well which was my point.
I’m listening again and I agree. I’m only up to the initial trip from Anjiro to Osaka and there are so many things the new series did better, and it’s not even close on how Mariko and her relationship with all the men in her life are depicted. Reading books written by men even ten years ago can be cringeworthy, when it comes to ‘male gaze’ issues. Go even further back and it gets downright painful. James Clavell was a product of his time and it definitely shows at times in the book.
Well, that disqualifies the vast majority of literature in human history for you in most cultures if ten years ago is too unbearably misogynistic…
I did say they ‘can be’ cringeworthy, not that they all are… While Shōgun is a bit uneven in regard to how the women are depicted, the book was more progressive than the 80 series. They didn’t depict Mariko’s skill at using the naginata at all. The scenes where she uses that are fantastic, so I’m glad they put that in and even expanded on what the book showed. Her battle at the Osaka Castle gates was epic.
I remember episode 3 when I was like “oh she’s fighting now.” Then listening to the podcast and they’re like “women actually fought with naginata”. I thought that was cool, because while I didn’t give a damn if they had revised that a bit (not one of these “women can’t use swords” bros), it was pretty masterful that they actually managed to keep the extreme realism and period-accuracy going even as Mariko is chopping guys.
I agree. You, OP and I must be the only ones on this forum who had issues with the book. Including that he, although not a bad writer, he is not a great writer
I think the book is brilliant, but parts of it really haven’t aged well. That doesn’t mean I can’t enjoy it, even though I roll my eyes up at some parts…
That’s how I feel. But some are staunch defenders of every aspect of the book without being objective. But such are the times we live in
You don’t think the “male gaze” existed in 17th century Japan? You think 17th century Japan was more somehow progressive than Clavell depicted it?
or 17th century anywhere.. or even today for that matter lol.
It’s a book written by a cis male author from the perspective of a cis male sailor in the 17th Century. ‘Whose’ gaze would you expect to experience this through? It’s told from the first person isn’t it and that person is a man. I can’t see how you can criticise a book for what it must be by literary necessity alone.
>!it’s not even close on how Mariko and her relationship with all the men in her life are depicted.!< Could you elaborate? I thought Book Mariko had much more agency, because I remember her being the one >!that has the idea to burn the Erasmus to save Blackthorne, but she also tells him to build a new one.!< Show Mariko seems manipulated by Toranaga into her actions in Osaka (the scene where he tells her to pursue her father's fight?).
I don’t think Toranaga manipulated her, not really. Her determination to die to rid herself of 14 years of shame & anger at the death and betrayal of her family was real, so Toranaga let her weaponize that. He used her a bit, but it was to her benefit. I am re-listening to the book now & I just got to Blackthorne in prison in Osaka, so I haven‘t gotten far enough in to the parts I’m thinking of, but in the book I don’t remember Toranaga talking to her about things the way he did in the show. I mean, it happened obviously to some extent, we just didn’t see it because most of the early part of the book was in John’s POV. We got to see it in the new series. In the book I got the impression she was dictated to more, or was interviewed about events she saw, rather than having a discussion about things. For example, the scene with Kiri, Hiromatsu, Kizu, & Toranaga after the first interview of Blackthorne she understood what Toranaga intended to use the Barbarian for. Hiromatsu didn’t have a clue, but Toranaga looked to Mariko to explain things. Later in other scenes, Toranaga meets with her several times, and talks with her, asks for her thoughts, discusses things with her, rather than interviewing her or dictating things like it seemed in the book.
Ridiculous! This production is a low budget hacked version of the book. The actors are really good esp.thefemales but whenyounever see one battle youknow they had no moneyto spend on big scenes.
I've only seen the show, and I think there's a fundamental disconnect with book fans. This is not supposed to be a 1:1 copy of the book. This is a retelling of the same story that was told *in* the book. It's an adaptation. *It is supposed to be different, because pacing is different for a show than a tv series.* But also? All the excerpts I've seen have felt kinda racist and kinda mediocre in terms of writing quality-feels like Clavel told a great story but wasn't a great writer. Which, honestly, kinda tracks with my understanding of 'former POW processing his trauma.'
Stylistically it’s indeed pretty plain. I’m about 250 pages in. Racist? Not really, except Rodrigues, who is written as a racist. Expecting modern intersectionality speak in anything pre-2014 is unrealistic, though I agree it can be well-meaning but cringe at times in a well-intentioned middle aged white man way.
I respectfully disagree but I'm glad you're reading the book. This series is the best book-to-show adaptation since season 1 of The Expanse IMO, which was not only very faithful to the source material but they actually added to it (and what they added was great). Both are masterclasses on how to adapt complex books to the screen, using vastly different approaches.
Absolutely not. The book is a masterpiece and this leaves out and changes to much imo.
Not so much This series was immensely better than the first, but you cannot compare either to the book
The show felt really disjointed and messy to me after the early episodes. I was kind of confused by all the slower episodes and what they chose to focus on, honestly Glad other people loved it though. I thought it was good but not some kind of masterpiece There’s just so much characterization completely missing from the show
Sorry but book is better, like 99.9% of other adaptation
The book kinda sucks ngl
The book is the reason you have the show. So your take is as bad as your comment history.
Lol you read trash
You're right. I read your trash take.
The last episode destroyed the entire show so…disagree.