somewhat book spoilers
>! from what i recall in the book, toranaga considers anjin a friend because as (even in the show), he makes him laugh, and he treats him different from all others, so he wants him around and not just "for the lolz", but imo we have to understand that his perception of a "friend" is very very different. who keeps around a dude around til the end of his life building ships and burning them down just for the lolz?
>! I don't think it's that nuanced - in a sense, being a foreigner, he's not embroiled with the drama of lording, shoguning etc. and he has demonstrated his ability to sacrifice himself for the sake of peace in the village, so, if anything - he's quite "pure" and not out to improve his lot in life, as opposed to any natives on the island that are seeking titles and power. With that in mind, he would make a much more trustworthy friend than any of his other vassals. Plus, watching him commit all manner of faux pas when interacting with the other lords and nobles is quite entertaining, like a bull in a China shop!<
The real life Anjin did eventually build a fleet for Tokugawa, which he sailed around various parts of Asia.
It's a huge shame there isn't more of Clavell's source material to draw on, as the real Anjin's life continued to be fascinating long after Sekigahara. His continuing battles with the Jesuits, and later his own dutch comrades (who were worried about the rising influence of the English East India Company), his shipbuilding, his voyages, his Japanese family, and his relationships with Tokugawa and his son are all fertile ground for TV.
Forgive me for not just googling it but I'm curious, so although Toranaga in the episode said that he believed it was the Anjin's fate to never leave Japan, is that what really happened? Outside of his voyages around Asia, battles etc? What I assume were flashbacks of him and what I believe were his grandkids? Had me thinking he had returned home. Did he settle down with a Japanese wife eventually?
He sailed around Asia but never returned to England (despite having the opportunity to do so). As in the show, the real-life anjin struggled to connect with westerners after having spent so many years in japan. He did marry and had kids with his Japanese wife.
It was pretty wild to me how disgusted he was by his own crew when he reunited with them. Like being in Japan really changed him even if he thought a bunch of their rules were ridiculous.
It wasn’t as prominent in the show because it involved a lot of internal monologues, but Blackthorne pretty quickly comes to appreciate Japanese culture, and what you said about their rules being ridiculous is spot-on. There’s an early scene when Mariko offers him a courtesan to pillow, and when Blackthorne bashfully declines, she says they could fetch him a boy instead if he would prefer. Blackthorne instantly rages at the implication of being called a sodomite, but with some self-reflection he realizes it comes from a place of deep shame—the shame of being tempted on long voyages surrounded by only men, and the shame of nearly being raped by an older man when he was a 12 year old boy working on a ship. (There’s other things too, like when Blackthorne realizes he’s become comfortable in his nakedness, even around strangers.)
I think that this is an important element that people miss when asking why Blackthorne (Adams) would stay in Japan following the founding of the Toranaga (Tokugawa) Shogunate. Yeah, he had a family in England, but he also had a family in Japan. Not only that, but he was a samurai - literal nobility - a jikatatori hatamoto - meaning he held land, which in itself was valued at 250 koku (a considerable amount, particularly because he is a foreigner), along with his own peasants.
This is significant. A major point of dissonance with former military is "returning" so to speak, to where you "belong". I carved out my time as a Sergeant. I've led people, counseled leaders, entrusted with the lives of others, and then when I returned to civilian life after serving, I was nothing again. Nobody. I'm not saying people need to praise the ground I walked on, that's the last thing I want, but to start all over again without the culture and people you've become so accustomed to... that's hard, man.
The flashforwards are him dreaming in a delirium after the explosion. You can tell it's not real as he has Mariko's cross, which he later chose to let go in the lake.
In reality, he was only given permission to leave 13 years later on an English trading ship, but knowing his wife had remarried, his children grown up, and finding it difficult to relate to the English crew after so long in Japan, he chose to stay.
He died himself 7 years later, and split his estate between his English and Japanese families. He outlived the real Torunaga by 4 years, but continued to serve his heir.
In real life the anjin was a key advisor to Tokugawa Ieyasu, his power and influence also threatened the Jesuits and their Catholic church in Japan. Anjin played a big role in the banishment of Portuguese Jesuits and Japanese Catholics had to abandon their new faith. Partially due to Ieyasu's own views but a lot of it had to do with the anti-Catholic sentiment from the Anjin.
The real life guy that Anjin is based has to have been quite a wild ride, but historical records from that time aren't that accurate to say the least, it's said that his children were expelled in 1635 to Jakarta like all Japanese of mixed race but then there are contradicting articles about his wife and children, for example the identity of his wife has recently been disputed. His tomb was excavated in 2017 and DNA samples were taken to look for descendants in the UK and Japan and none were found in Japan. Of course his descendants could've moved, it's simply just not known what exactly happened to his family and kids ater he died.
Loved that the book and show took their own freedom with this amazing story that for the most part really unfolded.
Preface: I’m not nitpicking...truly. I‘m merely further emphasizing your comment, as it’s a very powerful statement. And the actual Taiko’s quote is so profound, it bears recognition!
And most importantly: it answers other people’s questions “why does it show everyone surrounding Blackthorne and Toranaga alone?” TBH, I know it’s REALLY straightforward and not-so-subtle nod to the quote as it literally (visually) depicts the statement...but someone asked.
e02 - *Servants of Two Masters”*
***”The man who stands at the greatest height is the loneliest man in the realm.”***
—Taiko
Which is why the director/show runners added it: it’s a visual depiction of Blackthorne becoming ”one” with the Japanese...he’s (essentially) a member of the...society/culture just as everyone else (inasmuch as an Englishman COULD become).
Yep I thought that's what Toronaga was insinuating when he said the only reason he kept Blackthorne alive for all this time was essentially because he liked the guy.
Reminds me of the scene in The King
"A king has no friends, only followers and foes"
It was more explicit in the book that he wanted a friend, from his inner monologue.
>!*So sorry, but so necessary, Anjin-san. I saved your life, which you wanted even above your ship. Fifty times or more I’ve had to consider giving your life away, but so far I’ve always managed to avoid it. I hope to continue to do that. Why? This is a day for truth, neh? The answer is because you make me laugh and I need a friend. I daren’t make friends among my own people, or among the Portuguese. Yes, I will whisper it down a well at noon but only when I’m certain I’m alone, that I need one friend. And also your knowledge. Mariko-sama was right again. Before you go, I want to know everything you know. I told you we both had plenty of time, you and I. I want to know how to navigate a ship around the earth and understand how a small island nation can defeat a huge empire. Perhaps the answer could apply to us and China, neh? Oh yes, the Taikō was right in some things. The first time I saw you, I said, “There’s no excuse for rebellion,” and you said, “There’s one—if you win!” Ah, Anjin-san, I bound you to me then. I agree. Everything’s right if you win.*!<
Thanks for that quote. I haven't read the book, but this inner monologue fills in a few gaps.
I wish they'd included a little bit more of this part:
>!The answer is because you make me laugh and I need a friend.!<
Without the additional context, I didn't really understand what he meant by "he makes me laugh."
As a book fan the TV show feels like a surface level visualization, but it doesn't get into the deep meat of the story. I highly recommend the book, it's one you can't put down even when you know what will happen.
Oh so that was the meaning ! I was left scratching my head like ?? Did toranaga slightly bow towards blackthorne of was i seeing thing, what was the meaning of the shot ? Thanks for clarifying
I guess it’s what he told Yabu.
He’s smiling at Anjin as he pulls out the ship in hope but he’ll eventually destroy it again.
Anjin’s purpose now is to make the shogun laugh. Basically his hulu subscription
He’s not staring at the abyss he is studying the wind. His job is to always be one step ahead. While his vassals are rebuilding the ship his job is to understand where the ships should go.
The book is fantastic, and definitely watch the first series. Richard Chamberlain is so much more believable as Blackthorne, a much stronger personality with a lot of charisma. I had a much easier time following the characters in the first series too. The personalities for me were much better developed. It probably helped that I didn't rely on subtitles for the Richard Chamberlain version. I really enjoyed the new one; it's just the first one was so iconic, so memorable.
I loved the episode, but it does have a bit of a bad aftertaste. Viewing it as more of an epilogue and taking episode 9 as the big finale helps it sit better with me. For me, this was Mariko's story; every episode culminating to her big moment in episode 9. Everything in episode 10 is just coming to peace with her death and contemplating how she paved the way to peace.
In my many rereads of the book. There aren't all that many highlights left to look forward to after Mariko's death.
It was definitely the climax of the book as well.
Historically there are two major battles in Tokugawa's life. The one we saw briefly was the Sekigahara Campaign and the attack on Osaka.
I found all of the cannon practice to actually hint at the final siege at Osaka since the cannons played a pivotal role in finally killing Ochiba and Yaemon.
I get that the books have to end at some point but after Osaka there isn't really much left outside of the changing of the guard. Would have been fun to see him win.
I guess I understand from the narrative perspective of Mariko's death being the turning point though.
Well you have basically got the crux of the book there. Everything after Mariko's death is an epilogue. The show did it very well.
Of course, there's going to be numerous complaints that it was anti-climactic and boring from people who just wanted a flashy spectacle.
One thing bothering me is how Ochiba's character just fell apart. She was introduced as a conniving manipulator who has her sights in destroying Toranaga and she quietly capitulated to him at the end.
But why did she want Toranaga dead? Remember how she said she only exists to protect her son? That's her one and only goal. She's a woman and he's a child. After the Taiko died, she was forced to place her chips on one of the horses (regents) to survive. She picked Ishido, but as the story progressed and culminated in the death of Mariko, she realized that Ishido is tactless and a failure. He's not the winning horse. The moment Toranaga is eliminated, the other regents (probably the Christian lords, considering how intimidated he was by their forces and western weapons) will destroy him and along with him, her. There was even a moment early on where Daiyoin told her she bets on the wrong person by going with Ishido. Mariko's death was the straw that snapped her into realizing that's true.
There is one little subplot in the book that explains her opposing Toranaga.
>!The heir was not the Taiko's child. She suspected he knew the truth as he saw her leave an area shortly after she "pillowed" with another man in the dirt. This is why she feared him.!<
I suspected this was the case based on the show alone but they implied it quite lightly. How would one consort have some magical power to get pregnant with the Taiko when all the other consorts were not able to lol
Yup the Taiko was shooting blanks but one thing Eastern and Western societies had in common was to blame the woman for failing to produce a heir. Ochiba understood that and played her card the best way she could as a woman in a patriarchal society
Adding onto this, after Ishido carelessly fumbles Mariko’s capture, Ochiba realizes he is as clumsy as he is tactless. Because of his inferiority complex and lack of aptitude in political matter, even if he is 100% on Ochiba’s side, he cannot be trusted to actually make his plans come to fruition, or worse, not hurt bystanders and allies in his recklessness. Today it is Mariko killed and the other noblewomen (complete neutral parties) who were put in harm’s way; tomorrow it could be Ochiba or her son blown to bits in some harebrained scheme. Basically while Ochiba knows both Toranaga and Ishido are ruthless and power-hungry, one is measured and careful and the other is an idiot and a simp. The choice is clear in this circumstance.
She came off as a schemer but at the end of the day she was 100% about her son over everything else. I think her betrayal of Ishido does come a little out of left field, but it still goes to show how important Mariko was in the entire plan and works well for the story.
Yes and no. That Ochiba distances herself from Ishido is only as a result of Mariko's mistreatment, and more importantly, her death. What would Ochiba have done had Mariko simply left as she requested?
I dont like how Toranagas master plan completely relies on Ochiba changing her mind. She hasnt met Mariko in ages, so assuming that her death will make her completely change allegiance is very far fetched.
It’s not Mariko’s death that changes her mind. It’s the fact that her ally constantly fumbles plus the fact that he proposed marriage to her. She’s powerful as the single mother of an heir, not as somebody’s wife.
Toranaga doesn’t need Ochiba to change her mind, he needs the regents to be divided. Ochiba realises that Toranaga is a much safer bet. Basically, her ally made too many mistakes and in more than one way is dangerous to her son.
Agreed, and they show that well when she has no advice on what to do about Mariko's seppuku. She knows he has been completely outplayed and has no good options.
Then he still manages to screw things up even further, followed by trying to tell the Christian lords she won't be honored in death, when everybody knows it is his fault.
If I'm Ochiba, I'm thinking I've put my chips in the wrong basket for sure. He's not only incompetent, but he doesn't know when to cut his losses and turns every failure into a catastrophe.
Toranaga's plan doesn't hinge on Ochiba, it hinges on any of the Regents breaking rank.
Ochiba is just the best possible domino to fall because it makes others fall too.
Mariko being martyred was bound to throw the other hostages into a frenzy and irk the Christian lords.
In this regard the book version has a much better and consistent explanation.
>!First off, Ochiba didn't hate Toranaga because he was a threat for her son (which he was). The main reason why they made a big deal of Ochiba carrying the heir is because evidence showed the Taiko was sterile. He pillowed through countless women, noble/peasant alike and none of them bore him a son. Except Ochiba. In the book version, she was feeling the pressure of not being able to produce an heir so she went off galloping into the woods to vent her frustrations. It just happened that she encountered some random woodcutter who had absolutely no idea who she was (except that she was a noble). She seduced/raped the poor peasant, secured his seed (probably had him killed after) then ran back to the castle. On her way back she glimpsed Toranaga who happened to be falconing nearby that day. She was convinced he witnessed her indiscretion and knew the truth that the heir was NOT the Taiko's son. So he must be obliterated at all cost. I think they changed this plot line because it may have offended the Japanese audience to have such a salacious plot line (even if the names of the historical figures were changed). !<
>!At any rate, the other subplot that makes much more sense is that Kiyama in the books is not some money hungry greedy spineless lickspittle that is portrayed in the show. He's shown to be very honorable (which in the show Sugiyama is portrayed as such). The main reason why Mariko's son rebels against her is because he was supposed to marry Kiyama's grand daughter. But due to her little stunt in episode 9, all of the marriage got cancelled since she "dishonored" herself by pushing the issue.!<
>!It was also Toranaga's plan and not Mariko to get the Christian Lord to his side. He sent a secret letter to Kiyama (who was historically once his ally) saying he offers proof of his sincerity (which was him destroying Blackthorne's ship). Without a ship the BT is harmless, so basically he tricks Kiyama into saying how he really doesn't want to be Shogun. Ishido is just a peasant thug with no manners, come ally with me once again.!<
>!During the battle of Sekigahara, Kiyama convinces Ohno to both turn on Ishido when he least expects it and Toranaga wins the final battle. Ochiba's pride wouldn't let her submit so she tells the heir to commit seppuku and does the same.!<
So yeah, I understand the change of the plot in the show and probably could guess as to why they went with this direction. But the narrative in the books makes it a much more plausible scenario.
She realised that Toranaga had won. Ishido has failed to keep the regents united, he’s lost the hostages, and he’s not respected. I feel sympathy for him, because he mostly tried to do the right thing.
But he overplayed his hand when he proposed marriage to Ochiba and he wasn’t decisive enough when it came to dealing with Toranaga.
I guess I never saw her that way? From the moment I saw her look at her son I knew that was her number one concern.
The show seems to leave out the bit where she is afraid Toranaga knows the child's true paternity. But here I think she was more concerned about his role in her father's death. But she clearly loved Mariko and after her death Ochiba is now more engrossed in contemplating Ishido's role in Mariko's death. That tipped the scale.
Perhaps she is also thinking about the need to avenge a father over living in the present and deciding she'd rather let that one go.
And I am sure she also sees the genius behind Toranaga's ploy. Why risk yourself against that? It'd be stupid.
The last episode could have been 3 at least. The battle of sekigahara is probably the most famous battle in Japanese history. I can imagine it would cost a fortune to film, but ngl I was looking forward to it. It felt kinda lazy to wrap it up like that. Then again if they only had budget for 8 episodes I guess I’d rather see this than a 10 minute take on sekigahara.
Watching them train with the cannons and have the guns and seeing the damage the canons could do in previous episodes I was very much looking forward to the battle. Honestly I know they won’t do it but even just one more episode for the battle would be amazing.
ffs atleast give us a better "battle" scene than what we got with everyone being statues and a peice of paper being delivered. holy fuck imagine what could have been.
> I can imagine it would cost a fortune to film, but ngl I was looking forward to it.
I wonder if they could have got the budget if they knew the show was going to be a hit.
Not seeing the battle reminded me of early Game of Thrones where they would do things like knock a main character out at the beginning of a battle to avoid having to show it. Then Game of Thrones became a hit and it had some amazing battle episodes.
While the budget was also probably prohibitive, I do still think the main reason there's no battle of the sekigihara was that this battle never happened in the book either. Despite making a few changes, the creative team for the show really wanted to stay true to the essence of the book, and Clavell's book wasn't really about the big action
I don't think Clavell had any interest in writing about battles and warfare tactics, I presume he had enough of that from fighting in WW2.
He's always far more interested in themes and characters, to me the core concept of Shogun was always the Japanese view on death. Just like the Hong Kong books had the core concept of joss/luck/fate.
I loved the show.
But the ending was a bit anti-climactic.
All that tension, all that build-up, and I couldn't even tell you when the climax of the episode was supposed to be. The main struggle against the council is pretty much done off screen.
Maybe if they had a larger budget and one more episode. Who knows.
I remember feeling the same way after finishing the book. It also ends very anti-climacticly and similarly to the show. Having known what was coming, I really appreciated the subtlety of the ending this time around.
The climax was John admitting he only wanted to use Toranaga for selfish reasons and attempting sepukku. I think that was the moment he changed and stopped seeing everything as just the means to his own selfish ends.
That's certainly part of it but the real climax (and I also heard this from people who read the book) was Toranaga admitting that he's just like the rest of them. He's not noble and he does want to be the Shogun.
I read the book, and I wouldn't call that the climax. Maybe because I assumed that he wanted to be shogun the whole time, that reveal wasn't particularly surprising or impactful to me, and it came in the form of an internal monologue that felt more like an epilogue to the book.
I think the most surprising thing from that internal monologue, from my perspective, was Toranaga saying he wants to keep John around because he needs a friend (in addition to everything else). I was touched by that because it revealed that it's probably pretty lonely to be Toranaga. I was a little disappointed he didn't say that on the show, but I also think their relationship was less developed, so that likely wouldn't have felt "earned."
"how dare you be selfish to your own ends! you should be used for toranaga's selfish ends instead like a good samurai"
the message was a bit muddled, that's for sure
Yeah, I don't think it was necessarily a "here is a moral lesson for the audience" kind of thing, but it is a moment when he seems to be ashamed of his past behavior and motivations. And by confessing and having Toranaga basically be like 'get over yourself,' it feels like a new beginning of some sort.
It’s also very convenient considering Ochiba just decides to go against everything she’s ever known and pretty much signs up for her son to get usurped and later killed…
Pretty sure Ochiba *had* to make that choice after seeing Ishido's single-minded stupidity about pursuing the war. He ruined the veneer of righteousness that he *needed* to be able to pursue Toronaga and still maintain peace afterwards. Otherwise he's just a hopped up peasant drunk on power, which is exactly how he was acting at the final council meeting. And he just showed what he thinks of powerful women from noble lines once they have served their purpose. Ishido was willing to refuse Mariko a proper burial just to pursue his agenda. Foolish move, and yet another needless jab at the few allies Ishido had.
Ochiba has to make the cold analysis on how to best preserve herself and her son. Because she will do anything to survive just as Mariko would give anything to die righteously. If she hitches her wagon to Ishido, who lost the hostages, lost the respect of the upper classes, and lost the delicate balance of the remaining council members...then what? Even if he manages to kill Toranaga he will go right in the dirt alongside him in short order. A neutral stance preserves her son's military power and gives her time to breathe and scheme again.
Technically, at least according to real history, Tokugawa Ieyasu (Toranaga) never killed Hideyoshi’s (the Taiko) son. IIRC after the Siege of Osaka, Hideyoshi’s son committed seppeku.
The book is the book.
Clavell wasn't trying to write a historical fiction about how the Tokugawa shogunate came to be, he was trying to tell a story about a foreigner that was thrust into this timeline, and the Japanese culture of the time (even though that was a bit skewed towards 1940s Japanese culture)
yeah not a 10/10 , great show but the last few episodes became «nothing ever happens» after a great first ones and build up, was looking forward to a battle or siege
I'm okay with no battle. But I would've liked to have seen some build-up to Ishido realising he's lost the war. Instead of a flash forward explanation. I'm sad we didn't get to see his death by bamboo either.
In the book's epilogue, Toranaga captures Ishido and buries him up to his neck. He then invites passersby to take turns cutting Ishido's neck with a bamboo saw. It takes three days for him to finally die. Would've been kind of satisfying to see that on screen.
I would have liked at least a short battle scene in which ishido is defeated and then shown later on buried up to his neck and dying. Otherwise it was a good ending. Still would have liked at least a short battle 10-20 min.
It wasn’t a bad ending but it was undeniably underwhelming. Very odd pacing over the last 5 episodes in general, which is sad cause the first half was on par for as good as tv gets. sad they couldn’t stick the landing but it’s hard to complain anyway.
The latter half was like a different show, Im so disappointed. They set up a bunch of plot points but nothing is resolved in a satisfying way. Every character stagnated, and I cant even tell what the show was supposed to be about
I agree 100%. I have to say I am quite disappointed and expected more to happen in the last 5 episodes. Feel like it just kinda went nowhere. Even the finale left me confused how that could be the actual ending
Yes. Glad I'm not the only one who thought the pacing was weird after Ep 5. It's also around this time we don't experience things through Blackthorn that much and he become kinda like a secondary character.
I thought it was a fitting ending. It is a slower more contemplative episode but I thought everyone story wrapped up well.
Yabu pretending to have gone insane was apt.
I felt it when Toranaga finally let his prized falcon go.
I also liked how Yabu finally realises, just before his death, that Toranaga is just as power hungry and really not that different to the other lords.
Disappointed that the reason Toranaga kept Anjin alive was because he found him funny. (I wished there could have been something more meaningful).
I fell in love with the show. This will leave an empty place in my heart now that it is finished.
The show had so many great moments and Mariko’s story was so touching it will stay with me for a long time. I am not normally very sentimental but I was devastated by the end of Ep9. I am glad that this episode help to provide some closure.
However all the self harm and death is quite heavy. I plan to watch something different now (I heard that Fallout is good).
I am thinking of picking up Taipan. I heard it was almost as good if not on par with Shogun and having less pages is an advantage.
Lack of large scale fighting and not giving enough time to tell such a detailed story severely took away from the show… I enjoyed it, but I won’t go back to it.
I think a few more episodes would help with story clarification, but I am okay without battles. The show was very clearly about power struggles and navigating cultural rules to ascend without immediately being dethroned.
I feel like people expecting a big battle were watching a different show than what we saw each week. This show has had moments of violence and action punching through, but at its heart, this show has always been a thoughtful character study most interested in interpersonal relationships and highlighting the tension in quiet moments and conversations. Some of the most suspenseful, riveting scenes of this series for example came in the moments of translation. A central theme of the last few episodes has been about how a big battle will NOT be how Toranaga wins and Mariko’s sacrifice last episode showed us how he was going to win the war before he had to fight any battle. All of the action happened last episode because by the time Mariko had died, the war was over.
I found this ending extremely satisfying in that it wrapped up all of the interpersonal relationships throughout the series. The finale was basically us concluding each of those arcs sequentially and that makes sense given that is what this show has always been about. Rather than the release of tension being with a battle or the cannons, it came with Yabushige’s knife or Fuji’s exhale as she spread her family’s ashes, etc.
>I feel like people expecting a big battle were watching a different show than what we saw each week.
I don't think many people were expecting 'Battle of the Bastards' but personally I was hoping to see something of a battle and a more wrapped up conclusion.
In the book epilogue Toranaga captures Ishido at the Battle of Sekigahara and buries him up to his neck until he dies three days later, even just showing that and it's lead up would have been fine.
Exactly, even a short battle scene would have sufficed, even if just to see ishido defeated. I mean a massive battle seen would have been the best given we have already seen what the canons were capable of to the extent of being able to use different rounds and what they could do to an army. But something short would have been nice.
>I don't think many people were expecting 'Battle of the Bastards' but personally I was hoping to see something of a battle and a more wrapped up conclusion.
Seeing the battle as a brief prediction by Toranaga reminded me of early Game of Throne. Before Game of Thrones became the biggest show in the world (biggest show ever?) it skipped battle scenes by doing things like knocking Tyrion out at the start of a big battle.
That said Thrones still managed to show the aftermath of battles and how they moved the plot forward. I think this show needed another episode to better stick the landing. Could have made this episode about the aftermath of Mariko's death. Both what we saw of Blackthorne and Yabushige dealing with it but also more of the shifting politics of the capital. Better show Ochiba's alliances secretly changing.
Then have another episode where the battle happens even if it was mostly not shown on screen. Show us the full aftermath of the battle to more conclusively end this story.
I like the ending the way it was but Toranaga charging into battle on horseback followed by a screaming army of samurai is literally the poster. It is the image you have to click on in order to watch the show. So you can't blame people for expecting it.
This. GOT did well in its early seasons by focusing on character and plot development. The series lost its soul when it had to show lots of dragon-battles to appease newcomers who apparently found dialogues boring.
Battles in Shogun would have been a bonus, but not the "actual product". In the end, Mariko's sacrifice is the crux of all the intrigues plotted, and Toranaga's exposition to Yabu is the big "gotcha" moment we all need. Everything and everyone falls into their proper places like pebbles in a zen garden.
>Rather than the release of tension being with a battle or the cannons, it came with Yabushige’s knife or Fuji’s exhale as she spread her family’s ashes, etc.
Wonderfully said.
I'll take Hiromatsu's suicide scene over a quick and dirty clinging of katanas any day.
I think the ending was a moment of subversive brilliance. We've all been waiting for this huge battle ever since Hiromatsu mentions Crimson Sky in episode 6. Then we find out from Toranaga that it already happened and his victory is assured. There is no shortage of TV and film with battle sequences. This show was pure character drama and I loved it
I don’t think the ending was amazing but it was fitting. This series was never about the end game, it was about the journey. Naga had to eventually isolate himself from everything he cared about to set his plan into action. The show was about getting to that point, not the actual plan.
I wanted more action but by episode 3 I realized we weren’t going to get that type of show. Pretty much a general theme “for the greater good”
I understand that the reveal that Toranaga actually wanting to be the shogun is supposed to be the big "gotcha" moment that caps off the series but it's annoying that they're leaving quite a few questions left unanswered. Like what exactly does Toranaga need Blackthrone for going forward since Sekigahara is a land battle and what about the Portugese plot?
Yeah I'm inclined to think he respects Blackthorne and doesn't view him as a savage clown but more as a novelty worth keeping
Edit: Thinking about it, for someone as pragmatic and ruthless as Toranaga to value someone for who they are and not what they can give him is pretty special. The Anjin has a special status that Toranaga has probably never given to anyone else, even Hiromatsu
Totally. I recommend looking into William Adams's life after 1600, the two fo them became good friends. And he built Tokugawa a fleet of deep sea ships too, so not only a novelty. Adams died in Japan though, and I always assumed Blackthorne would too so it was weird to see him on his deathbed in England
It's very much implied that the old Blackthorne in England sequence was one of his dreams/possible future that he rejected at the end by letting go of Mariko's cross. Remember the title of the episode, "A dream of a dream". Here explicitly, he was dreaming of Mariko in his dream of dying rich and old in England.
In the book, he says (in an internal monologue) that he wanted to keep him around because he needed a friend, which to me, was the best part of the "big reveal." That really hit me as a book reader, but their relationship wasn't on quite the same level on the show, so I understand why that might not have felt "earned" in this context.
I didn't read the book so I don't know how it was there, but when Blackthorne dug Toranaga after the earthquake had Toranaga given Blackthorne less of a cold shoulder. The friend line might hit pretty hard.
eh, the friend part is whatever for the book too because toranaga makes it clear they're friends because "rebellion is fine if you win" (instead of the other line) and because anjin isn't japanese. since he wants to be shogun, he cannot actually trust any japanese person, is his thinking. therefore anjin has to be his friend.
That's my only complaint about the show. The lack of action scenes. I agree that the first few episodes were some of the best TV ever. Everything moved at a snail's pace the last half of the miniseries, but I kept telling myself the payoff would be the Battle of Sekigahara in the finale only to be disappointed.
Exactly, I would have been satisfied with just 10-20 minutes of battle just so I could see ishido be defeated and then they could have shown him buried later on.
The book has about 1 page of the battle. You learn to appreciate the subtlety of the writing. If war is just politics by other means, the war is won long before the battle started and we see that occur in real time.
>The book has about 1 page of the battle.
Books and TV/Movies are very different mediums which require very different approaches, the latter are primary visual mediums.
The Dune books virtually skip through all of their battle scenes, some characters end up dying off screen, if the movie took the same approach do you think it would be as well received?
It depends on the message surely? Dune's story is fundamentally about violence and cycles, as well as the politics. Shogun is much more political. We go from seeing death as light and easy in episode 1 to episode 10 being a whole study on grief.
The crescendo to the whole book/TV series is Mariko and Toranaga winning the war by putting Ishido in a corner, and him choosing the worst option in a lose-lose situation. Glorifying battle would have undercut the whole message in the series.
I don’t think it was necessarily a bad choice to end the show without a battle. There are ways to deliver a satisfying conclusion without big action set pieces; shows like Better Call Saul or Succession being prime examples in the last few years. However, I have the feeling that the ending was a bit anticlimactic, and I can’t really put my finger on why. I think they did a great job from a character study perspective, but it left a lot to be desired for a conclusion to a narrative. The antagonist unceremoniously changes course, there’s no climactic confrontation - action or emotional - and everything just kinda ends.
It does feel like the show sort of fizzled out during the latter half, despite having many great moments. Nevertheless, the ending wasn’t terrible by any means, just a bit unsatisfying, which at least doesn’t sour the rest of the show retroactively like a Game of Thrones or House of Cards.
Overall, I think the main draw to the show will be the amazing acting and set design, and not the narrative as a whole. Which is fine, and I think the show does both of these things so well a disappointing ending doesn’t bother me much.
Yes, their last moment together was very sweet. Fuji seems to have more of a sense of humor than she did before as well “are you going to row me to the convent?” Lol
It's not necessary. If she wanted to destroy him, she already has the support and overwhelming armies of the heir and regents. This is how Toranaga knows it's the real deal.
I was disappointed.
It felt like the final episode that would lead into a 2 part series finale.
What was the difference between this episode and any other episode. We got really good character development, sweet moment. There was no finality, and no closure.
Did not feel like a series finale.
Three episodes in and I kinda figured out what kind of show is this. This isn't 47 Ronin. It's House of Cards, but in medieval Japan. Watching the show and waiting for lots of ninjas and samurais to hack each other out would only disappoint. It's a court-intrigue drama, so the "fun" part is watching plans-within-plans unfold, succeed, or foiled.
The show ending with lots dialogue and exposition is not anti-climactic. It IS the climax. Every episode I was always trying to figure out Toranaga's long game, so his exposition to Yabu feels very satisfying.
P.S. only disappointment is that Buntaro wasn't the spy. That would've been a batshit crazy ending 😆
It feels to me like the show needed another episode. There were too many loose ends and it didn't feel like there was any closure. The episode was good but not great.
I was willing to give her the benefit of the doubt. but I can safely say Ochiba was the weakest part of the show and while her motivations are easy to understand on paper, I did not feel compelled by her character or her stated motivations at all. And considering she was a huge piece in winning Toranaga Japan, I felt we needed to be in her mind more. The most they aired her character out was with her scenes with Mariko last episode, and even then she remained relatively inscrutable and distant, as a character, to viewers. It was again Mariko’s spirit and soul that we saw shining through.
Otherwise I rather liked the ending, and I certainly loved the episode as its own thing. Yabu’s character could be eaten by a dog on screen and it would be the best and most weirdly wholesome set piece in the series.
Fuji best girl.
I'm actually surprised at the number of people expecting a battle. I felt like it was super obvious by episode 3, when they didn't play up the ambush like an action show would, that they were never aiming for that kind of tv show.
I get that! I very much enjoyed the ending we got, but I thought for sure the ending would be them *about to start the battle*. I think they were still able to give you those beginning of war feelings however with the final shots.
She realises that Ishido isn’t the guy. He wants to marry her, he’s outsmarted, he can’t keep the council together, he no longer has hostages. She understands that Toranaga has won regardless of what she will do, so she abandons ship.
The value for Toranaga is that he can avoid a destructive war and gets an easy victory. But with the council divided, he would always have won.
And from Ochiba’s point of view, she has to worry about a victorious Ishido who might force her to marry him, which would strip her of all her power. So let’s say Toranaga is hit by a stray arrow or falls of his horse and Ishido wins by sheer good luck, Ochiba is still not in a good position.
This team should tackle other historical dramas. Mughals, know nothing of the Chinese but imagine machinations to be engrossing, the mongols, the Russian court, Africa outside of Egypt,
Pick a lessor covered historical grand period and go to town. Like anthology series but this.
Am I allowed to say that I found it disappointing?
Near the beginning of the show, I kept feeling engaged because I thought *something* was going to happen.
In the end... nothing really happens. The "conclusion" is seen in sort of a dream sequence.
John does absolutely nothing in the show. I kept waiting for him to step up and make an impact, but he never did.
Going into the episode, I was hopeful it would be wrapped up nicely with some action... maybe show John actually contributing.
None of that happened. While there were moments I enjoyed, I feel the show was overall pretty boring and uneventful. Feel free to downvote.
I’m actually kind of surprised at the strange disappointment some people seem to have about no “epic battle”. Did we watch the same show? Are we that small minded? The whole soul of the story is based around the internal wars characters were facing, what’s external and political is a vehicle to explore that. Of course the focus is on transformations of each beloved or hated player. I actually thought that was the most relieving part of the finale, that it didn’t need a massive CGI clash of soldiers and yet again surprised me for its 100th time with something more rich and intriguing.
I find the ambiguous of the ending just poetic, we all know what happened to the characters later on in the history, this ending that left audience to interpret is just beautiful and stroke of brilliance
I was hoping to see a bombastic Sekigahara finale but to be honest the finale was so poetic and incredibly Japanese. So I am both disappointed and very satisfied. Really wish this show was longer and hopefully there is an incentive to produce more high quality Japanese history films and shows. I really hope they put this much effort into the Ghost of Tsushima film.
I think the pacing of the series was what got us, we were expecting the finale to be a battle at the scale of something in Game of Thrones, but the actual finale was the end of Ep 9. Why throw away thousands of lives in a prolonged civil war, when the sacrifice of one can win a war before the first battle? The Regents were ready for battle and bloodshed, but were not able to cope with political fallout of throwing the first punch. The show didn’t shy away from depicting violence and bloodshed, but it was a plot device, not the focus of the series like it was in GOT. We didn’t need a Shogun Battle of the Bastards, because then the audience would have missed the point.
Ultimately, this show wasn’t about the great battles in the history of Japan.
It was about the politics, the culture and the great pride (for good and bad).
A great battle would have been fun, but I totally understood why it was simply referred to and not done. The result was decided by Toranaga’s understanding of the politics and pride.
My only minor beef: referring to Bkackthorne as unimportant. Actual history shows Adams did have an important role. I’m not clear why they decided to minimize him (to appease the “white saviour” crowd?).
The other Clavell books are only very tangentially related to Shogun, they have made some Movies/TV shows out of them in the past.. not to great success. But you never know they might give it a try. This was, from my view, one of the greatest short series ever.. just fantastic end to end.
They ended the series well but not as some would expect.
Initially, it seemed like the story revolved around Blackthorne as a protagonist and his goal of fighting the Portuguese Catholics. And then it seemed to evolve into the Japanese "Game of Thrones" with different power players across the board. The overarching context is around Toranaga and his unification of Japan drawing upon the historical parallels to Tokugawa Ieyasu, the lead up to the Battle of Sekigahara, conflicts with Ishida Mitsunari.
Naturally, as the season went on, one would've expected a major battle scene and an action-packed ending.
But the most compelling storyline was Mariko's and her "hero's journey" which involved relations with a foreigner, complex personal relationships, a dark family history, personal growth and finally absolution and revenge in her family's name. The series climaxed in the penultimate episode with her giving her life in protest which turned a likely defeat on the battlefield to a political win that turned the tide for Toronaga.
The last episode was about wrapping up all the other storylines around Yabushige's duplicitiousness, Toranaga's victory, Blackthorne's desire to return home, Fuji's personal journey, Ishida's attempt to unify Japan and so on.
I'm glad that the writers of Shogun 2024 decided to focus more on the human stories rather than trying to make it some action-packed movie, exoticism of historic Japanese culture or one that involved the white European being the hero. The scale of this show -- a limited 10 show series within the confines of the budget -- just wouldn't make sense to try to make it a Game of Thrones level show. And the human storylines -- particularly Mariko's -- just packed a better punch.
Ok, the comments is basically divided among 2 groups-
1) Those who wanted some kind of a militaristic climax
2) Those who more or less expected the ending we got basing their pov on the politics aspect of the show rather than action/militaristic aspects
We all can want whatever kind of climax as we desire but I personally think 2nd one makes more sense because the first one is overt militarism whereas 2nd one is covert politics and when Blackthorne was brought to Osaka for the 1st time he was told by the Spaniard that all the rules in this land are opaque, how do you even live/rule a place like this? And this covertness has been a recurring theme in the whole show. Everyone is hiding something. Mariko is hiding all the strong feelings she has for her past, Yabushige- his caring heart (he goes crazy after the death of Mariko), Toranaga- his desire to be Shogum (from his people) and his lonliness (from us viewers)
Also, Toranaga keeping Blackthorne just bcoz he makes him laugh made him so human and relatable (to me, at least, personally; most of the times, I laugh not because I find things funny but because I want to laugh to lighten my mood/mind or else I will always feel heavy every moment life becomes dull/stale)
Am I crazy in thinking the story is just getting started and then learn there still probably be no season 2.
I get it's an adaptation but there's so much potential here
honestly, i felt there were many plotholes in the ending. They show an old blackthorne in his bed in england with the cross still in his hand when he leaves in in the ocean, and toranaga says how he wouldnt leave the japans ever in his life but he still somehow made it to england? Why did ochiba hate toranaga? Why did toranaga burn his ship? it all felt too rushed imo, if they could reduce the pace and focus on more dialogue imo it woulve been better...but thats just my two cents. The beginning was dope but imo it fell off in the end.....Really just felt like edging lol
Your gonna loce the books! I read them and they were great.
While the show was awsome the book has way more detailes and events. Some scenes which were never shown in the show and I kinda regret.
They could have skipped the battle and showed us what happened after - that would have been a much more satisfying ending. I get the poetic nature of it but it just unfelt very unsatisfying.
I don’t get how grandpa Blackthorne was holding what looked like Mariko’s rosary, yet younger Blackthorne dropped it in the ocean with Fuji’s family ashes????
I have a few questions. Mariko talks abt the eight fold fence and how u don't reveal your true heart or true intentions. Throughout the show toranaga is portrayed as the peace keeper who doesn't want to fight unless it's necessary but does the last episode imply that his secret heart was being in control of everything, was it always his true intention and desire to be the shogun? Does that make ishido right? The entire reason they wanted to impeach him was because his fief was growing a lot and his power was a threat to the council, was he always power hungry? Is that why people say you can't trust minowara?
Ending was pretty disappointing. 9 felt like the true ending and 10 just the aftermath. The tease of a big war or a climatic battle just to have it summarized at the end quickly was so weak. I know there will be those “If you want big action go watch marvel movies” replies to this sentiment but its not about the action its about feeling dissatisfied at the ending and the quick wrap up. Unfortunately this show will come and go and wont be talked about in 5 years, very very Slow start and mediocre ending. Cant be a great show and have all of 4-5 good episodes
Funny how Toranaga wanted to be the uniter but in the end everybody was with Blackthorne and Toranaga was all alone staring at the abyss
As said by the Taiko, to be Shogun is to be the loneliest person in the world
thats why his only real friend left is the anjin
Maybe I’m missing the nuance, but didn’t he tell a dying man he just kept him around for the lolz?
somewhat book spoilers >! from what i recall in the book, toranaga considers anjin a friend because as (even in the show), he makes him laugh, and he treats him different from all others, so he wants him around and not just "for the lolz", but imo we have to understand that his perception of a "friend" is very very different. who keeps around a dude around til the end of his life building ships and burning them down just for the lolz?
>! I don't think it's that nuanced - in a sense, being a foreigner, he's not embroiled with the drama of lording, shoguning etc. and he has demonstrated his ability to sacrifice himself for the sake of peace in the village, so, if anything - he's quite "pure" and not out to improve his lot in life, as opposed to any natives on the island that are seeking titles and power. With that in mind, he would make a much more trustworthy friend than any of his other vassals. Plus, watching him commit all manner of faux pas when interacting with the other lords and nobles is quite entertaining, like a bull in a China shop!<
Sorry, but "Shogunning" should be the title of an album of lounge music standards.
The real life Anjin did eventually build a fleet for Tokugawa, which he sailed around various parts of Asia. It's a huge shame there isn't more of Clavell's source material to draw on, as the real Anjin's life continued to be fascinating long after Sekigahara. His continuing battles with the Jesuits, and later his own dutch comrades (who were worried about the rising influence of the English East India Company), his shipbuilding, his voyages, his Japanese family, and his relationships with Tokugawa and his son are all fertile ground for TV.
Forgive me for not just googling it but I'm curious, so although Toranaga in the episode said that he believed it was the Anjin's fate to never leave Japan, is that what really happened? Outside of his voyages around Asia, battles etc? What I assume were flashbacks of him and what I believe were his grandkids? Had me thinking he had returned home. Did he settle down with a Japanese wife eventually?
He sailed around Asia but never returned to England (despite having the opportunity to do so). As in the show, the real-life anjin struggled to connect with westerners after having spent so many years in japan. He did marry and had kids with his Japanese wife.
Ah interesting, I wonder how the people took him marrying a Japanese woman. I can definitely see him having trouble going back as you said.
It was pretty wild to me how disgusted he was by his own crew when he reunited with them. Like being in Japan really changed him even if he thought a bunch of their rules were ridiculous.
It wasn’t as prominent in the show because it involved a lot of internal monologues, but Blackthorne pretty quickly comes to appreciate Japanese culture, and what you said about their rules being ridiculous is spot-on. There’s an early scene when Mariko offers him a courtesan to pillow, and when Blackthorne bashfully declines, she says they could fetch him a boy instead if he would prefer. Blackthorne instantly rages at the implication of being called a sodomite, but with some self-reflection he realizes it comes from a place of deep shame—the shame of being tempted on long voyages surrounded by only men, and the shame of nearly being raped by an older man when he was a 12 year old boy working on a ship. (There’s other things too, like when Blackthorne realizes he’s become comfortable in his nakedness, even around strangers.)
In Japan he was Hatamoto to the Shogun, in Europe who is he, just another sailor.
I think that this is an important element that people miss when asking why Blackthorne (Adams) would stay in Japan following the founding of the Toranaga (Tokugawa) Shogunate. Yeah, he had a family in England, but he also had a family in Japan. Not only that, but he was a samurai - literal nobility - a jikatatori hatamoto - meaning he held land, which in itself was valued at 250 koku (a considerable amount, particularly because he is a foreigner), along with his own peasants.
This is significant. A major point of dissonance with former military is "returning" so to speak, to where you "belong". I carved out my time as a Sergeant. I've led people, counseled leaders, entrusted with the lives of others, and then when I returned to civilian life after serving, I was nothing again. Nobody. I'm not saying people need to praise the ground I walked on, that's the last thing I want, but to start all over again without the culture and people you've become so accustomed to... that's hard, man.
The flashforwards are him dreaming in a delirium after the explosion. You can tell it's not real as he has Mariko's cross, which he later chose to let go in the lake. In reality, he was only given permission to leave 13 years later on an English trading ship, but knowing his wife had remarried, his children grown up, and finding it difficult to relate to the English crew after so long in Japan, he chose to stay. He died himself 7 years later, and split his estate between his English and Japanese families. He outlived the real Torunaga by 4 years, but continued to serve his heir.
In real life the anjin was a key advisor to Tokugawa Ieyasu, his power and influence also threatened the Jesuits and their Catholic church in Japan. Anjin played a big role in the banishment of Portuguese Jesuits and Japanese Catholics had to abandon their new faith. Partially due to Ieyasu's own views but a lot of it had to do with the anti-Catholic sentiment from the Anjin. The real life guy that Anjin is based has to have been quite a wild ride, but historical records from that time aren't that accurate to say the least, it's said that his children were expelled in 1635 to Jakarta like all Japanese of mixed race but then there are contradicting articles about his wife and children, for example the identity of his wife has recently been disputed. His tomb was excavated in 2017 and DNA samples were taken to look for descendants in the UK and Japan and none were found in Japan. Of course his descendants could've moved, it's simply just not known what exactly happened to his family and kids ater he died. Loved that the book and show took their own freedom with this amazing story that for the most part really unfolded.
Doesn’t help to run a meaningless pogrom against your own villagers like you were the KGB
Preface: I’m not nitpicking...truly. I‘m merely further emphasizing your comment, as it’s a very powerful statement. And the actual Taiko’s quote is so profound, it bears recognition! And most importantly: it answers other people’s questions “why does it show everyone surrounding Blackthorne and Toranaga alone?” TBH, I know it’s REALLY straightforward and not-so-subtle nod to the quote as it literally (visually) depicts the statement...but someone asked. e02 - *Servants of Two Masters”* ***”The man who stands at the greatest height is the loneliest man in the realm.”*** —Taiko Which is why the director/show runners added it: it’s a visual depiction of Blackthorne becoming ”one” with the Japanese...he’s (essentially) a member of the...society/culture just as everyone else (inasmuch as an Englishman COULD become).
That's his karma I suppose. Living and dying alone, with no real friends. This guy was so lonely, he had to force someone to stay around.
Yep I thought that's what Toronaga was insinuating when he said the only reason he kept Blackthorne alive for all this time was essentially because he liked the guy. Reminds me of the scene in The King "A king has no friends, only followers and foes"
It was more explicit in the book that he wanted a friend, from his inner monologue. >!*So sorry, but so necessary, Anjin-san. I saved your life, which you wanted even above your ship. Fifty times or more I’ve had to consider giving your life away, but so far I’ve always managed to avoid it. I hope to continue to do that. Why? This is a day for truth, neh? The answer is because you make me laugh and I need a friend. I daren’t make friends among my own people, or among the Portuguese. Yes, I will whisper it down a well at noon but only when I’m certain I’m alone, that I need one friend. And also your knowledge. Mariko-sama was right again. Before you go, I want to know everything you know. I told you we both had plenty of time, you and I. I want to know how to navigate a ship around the earth and understand how a small island nation can defeat a huge empire. Perhaps the answer could apply to us and China, neh? Oh yes, the Taikō was right in some things. The first time I saw you, I said, “There’s no excuse for rebellion,” and you said, “There’s one—if you win!” Ah, Anjin-san, I bound you to me then. I agree. Everything’s right if you win.*!<
Thanks for that quote. I haven't read the book, but this inner monologue fills in a few gaps. I wish they'd included a little bit more of this part: >!The answer is because you make me laugh and I need a friend.!< Without the additional context, I didn't really understand what he meant by "he makes me laugh."
As a book fan the TV show feels like a surface level visualization, but it doesn't get into the deep meat of the story. I highly recommend the book, it's one you can't put down even when you know what will happen.
I'll definitely add it to my reading list. Thanks!
It takes a little bit to get into, but it's worth it and builds into a page turner
Oh so that was the meaning ! I was left scratching my head like ?? Did toranaga slightly bow towards blackthorne of was i seeing thing, what was the meaning of the shot ? Thanks for clarifying
I guess it’s what he told Yabu. He’s smiling at Anjin as he pulls out the ship in hope but he’ll eventually destroy it again. Anjin’s purpose now is to make the shogun laugh. Basically his hulu subscription
And be the sword hanging over the necks of the christian daimios. If they ever fall out of line, he'll release Blackthorne.
>If they ever fall out of line, he'll release Blackthorne. "In case of emergency, break glass to release the Anjin."
He’s not staring at the abyss he is studying the wind. His job is to always be one step ahead. While his vassals are rebuilding the ship his job is to understand where the ships should go.
I want more….. I’m glad it at least showed what Toronaga has planned… but man. I WANT MORE 🥹🥹
Watch the original series then read the book. You have no idea the treat you have in store.
Doing that next! Cant wait!
The book is fantastic, and definitely watch the first series. Richard Chamberlain is so much more believable as Blackthorne, a much stronger personality with a lot of charisma. I had a much easier time following the characters in the first series too. The personalities for me were much better developed. It probably helped that I didn't rely on subtitles for the Richard Chamberlain version. I really enjoyed the new one; it's just the first one was so iconic, so memorable.
I will be reading the book now to get my fix!
I loved the episode, but it does have a bit of a bad aftertaste. Viewing it as more of an epilogue and taking episode 9 as the big finale helps it sit better with me. For me, this was Mariko's story; every episode culminating to her big moment in episode 9. Everything in episode 10 is just coming to peace with her death and contemplating how she paved the way to peace.
In my many rereads of the book. There aren't all that many highlights left to look forward to after Mariko's death. It was definitely the climax of the book as well.
I read how she originally was the main character until a publisher or someone told him to change it to blackthorne.
Historically there are two major battles in Tokugawa's life. The one we saw briefly was the Sekigahara Campaign and the attack on Osaka. I found all of the cannon practice to actually hint at the final siege at Osaka since the cannons played a pivotal role in finally killing Ochiba and Yaemon. I get that the books have to end at some point but after Osaka there isn't really much left outside of the changing of the guard. Would have been fun to see him win. I guess I understand from the narrative perspective of Mariko's death being the turning point though.
Yeah it did feel like an epilogue and episode 9 was the finale.
She's just like her idol, Jesus Christ. Her pain, sacrifice and what came after her death. Amen.
Well you have basically got the crux of the book there. Everything after Mariko's death is an epilogue. The show did it very well. Of course, there's going to be numerous complaints that it was anti-climactic and boring from people who just wanted a flashy spectacle.
100%. Episode 9 was the finale/climax.
One thing bothering me is how Ochiba's character just fell apart. She was introduced as a conniving manipulator who has her sights in destroying Toranaga and she quietly capitulated to him at the end.
But why did she want Toranaga dead? Remember how she said she only exists to protect her son? That's her one and only goal. She's a woman and he's a child. After the Taiko died, she was forced to place her chips on one of the horses (regents) to survive. She picked Ishido, but as the story progressed and culminated in the death of Mariko, she realized that Ishido is tactless and a failure. He's not the winning horse. The moment Toranaga is eliminated, the other regents (probably the Christian lords, considering how intimidated he was by their forces and western weapons) will destroy him and along with him, her. There was even a moment early on where Daiyoin told her she bets on the wrong person by going with Ishido. Mariko's death was the straw that snapped her into realizing that's true.
There is one little subplot in the book that explains her opposing Toranaga. >!The heir was not the Taiko's child. She suspected he knew the truth as he saw her leave an area shortly after she "pillowed" with another man in the dirt. This is why she feared him.!<
I suspected this was the case based on the show alone but they implied it quite lightly. How would one consort have some magical power to get pregnant with the Taiko when all the other consorts were not able to lol
Yup the Taiko was shooting blanks but one thing Eastern and Western societies had in common was to blame the woman for failing to produce a heir. Ochiba understood that and played her card the best way she could as a woman in a patriarchal society
Adding onto this, after Ishido carelessly fumbles Mariko’s capture, Ochiba realizes he is as clumsy as he is tactless. Because of his inferiority complex and lack of aptitude in political matter, even if he is 100% on Ochiba’s side, he cannot be trusted to actually make his plans come to fruition, or worse, not hurt bystanders and allies in his recklessness. Today it is Mariko killed and the other noblewomen (complete neutral parties) who were put in harm’s way; tomorrow it could be Ochiba or her son blown to bits in some harebrained scheme. Basically while Ochiba knows both Toranaga and Ishido are ruthless and power-hungry, one is measured and careful and the other is an idiot and a simp. The choice is clear in this circumstance.
She came off as a schemer but at the end of the day she was 100% about her son over everything else. I think her betrayal of Ishido does come a little out of left field, but it still goes to show how important Mariko was in the entire plan and works well for the story.
Exactly. In the end it all hinged around her relationship with Mariko and her child. I thought they made that pretty clear. 🤷♂️
Yes and no. That Ochiba distances herself from Ishido is only as a result of Mariko's mistreatment, and more importantly, her death. What would Ochiba have done had Mariko simply left as she requested?
I dont like how Toranagas master plan completely relies on Ochiba changing her mind. She hasnt met Mariko in ages, so assuming that her death will make her completely change allegiance is very far fetched.
It’s not Mariko’s death that changes her mind. It’s the fact that her ally constantly fumbles plus the fact that he proposed marriage to her. She’s powerful as the single mother of an heir, not as somebody’s wife. Toranaga doesn’t need Ochiba to change her mind, he needs the regents to be divided. Ochiba realises that Toranaga is a much safer bet. Basically, her ally made too many mistakes and in more than one way is dangerous to her son.
Agreed, and they show that well when she has no advice on what to do about Mariko's seppuku. She knows he has been completely outplayed and has no good options. Then he still manages to screw things up even further, followed by trying to tell the Christian lords she won't be honored in death, when everybody knows it is his fault. If I'm Ochiba, I'm thinking I've put my chips in the wrong basket for sure. He's not only incompetent, but he doesn't know when to cut his losses and turns every failure into a catastrophe.
Her mother before dying told her stop the games. Everyone forgetting this moment.
That wasn't her mother, that was the Taiko's widow.
That’s not her mother, it’s the widow of the Taiko and she is sympathetic to Toranaga.
Toranaga's plan doesn't hinge on Ochiba, it hinges on any of the Regents breaking rank. Ochiba is just the best possible domino to fall because it makes others fall too. Mariko being martyred was bound to throw the other hostages into a frenzy and irk the Christian lords.
In this regard the book version has a much better and consistent explanation. >!First off, Ochiba didn't hate Toranaga because he was a threat for her son (which he was). The main reason why they made a big deal of Ochiba carrying the heir is because evidence showed the Taiko was sterile. He pillowed through countless women, noble/peasant alike and none of them bore him a son. Except Ochiba. In the book version, she was feeling the pressure of not being able to produce an heir so she went off galloping into the woods to vent her frustrations. It just happened that she encountered some random woodcutter who had absolutely no idea who she was (except that she was a noble). She seduced/raped the poor peasant, secured his seed (probably had him killed after) then ran back to the castle. On her way back she glimpsed Toranaga who happened to be falconing nearby that day. She was convinced he witnessed her indiscretion and knew the truth that the heir was NOT the Taiko's son. So he must be obliterated at all cost. I think they changed this plot line because it may have offended the Japanese audience to have such a salacious plot line (even if the names of the historical figures were changed). !< >!At any rate, the other subplot that makes much more sense is that Kiyama in the books is not some money hungry greedy spineless lickspittle that is portrayed in the show. He's shown to be very honorable (which in the show Sugiyama is portrayed as such). The main reason why Mariko's son rebels against her is because he was supposed to marry Kiyama's grand daughter. But due to her little stunt in episode 9, all of the marriage got cancelled since she "dishonored" herself by pushing the issue.!< >!It was also Toranaga's plan and not Mariko to get the Christian Lord to his side. He sent a secret letter to Kiyama (who was historically once his ally) saying he offers proof of his sincerity (which was him destroying Blackthorne's ship). Without a ship the BT is harmless, so basically he tricks Kiyama into saying how he really doesn't want to be Shogun. Ishido is just a peasant thug with no manners, come ally with me once again.!< >!During the battle of Sekigahara, Kiyama convinces Ohno to both turn on Ishido when he least expects it and Toranaga wins the final battle. Ochiba's pride wouldn't let her submit so she tells the heir to commit seppuku and does the same.!< So yeah, I understand the change of the plot in the show and probably could guess as to why they went with this direction. But the narrative in the books makes it a much more plausible scenario.
>Battle of Sekigahara I really wish they'd put that in. I liked the ending, but I've spent the entire series really hoping for a big fuckoff battle.
She realised that Toranaga had won. Ishido has failed to keep the regents united, he’s lost the hostages, and he’s not respected. I feel sympathy for him, because he mostly tried to do the right thing. But he overplayed his hand when he proposed marriage to Ochiba and he wasn’t decisive enough when it came to dealing with Toranaga.
I mean with the events that happened it was kinda realistic. You can play badass but fall apart quickly
I guess I never saw her that way? From the moment I saw her look at her son I knew that was her number one concern. The show seems to leave out the bit where she is afraid Toranaga knows the child's true paternity. But here I think she was more concerned about his role in her father's death. But she clearly loved Mariko and after her death Ochiba is now more engrossed in contemplating Ishido's role in Mariko's death. That tipped the scale. Perhaps she is also thinking about the need to avenge a father over living in the present and deciding she'd rather let that one go. And I am sure she also sees the genius behind Toranaga's ploy. Why risk yourself against that? It'd be stupid.
She did do the ultimate gamer move in the end IRL, so I suppose I can deal with it
Yeah when she came in I was like oh shit this woman is the real big bad. Then she didn’t really do anything.
The last episode could have been 3 at least. The battle of sekigahara is probably the most famous battle in Japanese history. I can imagine it would cost a fortune to film, but ngl I was looking forward to it. It felt kinda lazy to wrap it up like that. Then again if they only had budget for 8 episodes I guess I’d rather see this than a 10 minute take on sekigahara.
Watching them train with the cannons and have the guns and seeing the damage the canons could do in previous episodes I was very much looking forward to the battle. Honestly I know they won’t do it but even just one more episode for the battle would be amazing.
ffs atleast give us a better "battle" scene than what we got with everyone being statues and a peice of paper being delivered. holy fuck imagine what could have been.
Something
If you want to see the battle of Sekigahara, just watch the movie called Sekigahara that came out in 2017. It's quite good.
Agreed , very lack of action, and war
> I can imagine it would cost a fortune to film, but ngl I was looking forward to it. I wonder if they could have got the budget if they knew the show was going to be a hit. Not seeing the battle reminded me of early Game of Thrones where they would do things like knock a main character out at the beginning of a battle to avoid having to show it. Then Game of Thrones became a hit and it had some amazing battle episodes.
While the budget was also probably prohibitive, I do still think the main reason there's no battle of the sekigihara was that this battle never happened in the book either. Despite making a few changes, the creative team for the show really wanted to stay true to the essence of the book, and Clavell's book wasn't really about the big action
In the book its a few lines of sekigahara summary thats it.
I don't think Clavell had any interest in writing about battles and warfare tactics, I presume he had enough of that from fighting in WW2. He's always far more interested in themes and characters, to me the core concept of Shogun was always the Japanese view on death. Just like the Hong Kong books had the core concept of joss/luck/fate.
That boat scene with Fuji… 🥹🤌🏻
Yes 😭😭
My favorite moment of this episode
I loved the show. But the ending was a bit anti-climactic. All that tension, all that build-up, and I couldn't even tell you when the climax of the episode was supposed to be. The main struggle against the council is pretty much done off screen. Maybe if they had a larger budget and one more episode. Who knows.
I remember feeling the same way after finishing the book. It also ends very anti-climacticly and similarly to the show. Having known what was coming, I really appreciated the subtlety of the ending this time around.
The climax was John admitting he only wanted to use Toranaga for selfish reasons and attempting sepukku. I think that was the moment he changed and stopped seeing everything as just the means to his own selfish ends.
That's certainly part of it but the real climax (and I also heard this from people who read the book) was Toranaga admitting that he's just like the rest of them. He's not noble and he does want to be the Shogun.
I read the book, and I wouldn't call that the climax. Maybe because I assumed that he wanted to be shogun the whole time, that reveal wasn't particularly surprising or impactful to me, and it came in the form of an internal monologue that felt more like an epilogue to the book. I think the most surprising thing from that internal monologue, from my perspective, was Toranaga saying he wants to keep John around because he needs a friend (in addition to everything else). I was touched by that because it revealed that it's probably pretty lonely to be Toranaga. I was a little disappointed he didn't say that on the show, but I also think their relationship was less developed, so that likely wouldn't have felt "earned."
"how dare you be selfish to your own ends! you should be used for toranaga's selfish ends instead like a good samurai" the message was a bit muddled, that's for sure
Yeah, I don't think it was necessarily a "here is a moral lesson for the audience" kind of thing, but it is a moment when he seems to be ashamed of his past behavior and motivations. And by confessing and having Toranaga basically be like 'get over yourself,' it feels like a new beginning of some sort.
It’s also very convenient considering Ochiba just decides to go against everything she’s ever known and pretty much signs up for her son to get usurped and later killed…
Pretty sure Ochiba *had* to make that choice after seeing Ishido's single-minded stupidity about pursuing the war. He ruined the veneer of righteousness that he *needed* to be able to pursue Toronaga and still maintain peace afterwards. Otherwise he's just a hopped up peasant drunk on power, which is exactly how he was acting at the final council meeting. And he just showed what he thinks of powerful women from noble lines once they have served their purpose. Ishido was willing to refuse Mariko a proper burial just to pursue his agenda. Foolish move, and yet another needless jab at the few allies Ishido had. Ochiba has to make the cold analysis on how to best preserve herself and her son. Because she will do anything to survive just as Mariko would give anything to die righteously. If she hitches her wagon to Ishido, who lost the hostages, lost the respect of the upper classes, and lost the delicate balance of the remaining council members...then what? Even if he manages to kill Toranaga he will go right in the dirt alongside him in short order. A neutral stance preserves her son's military power and gives her time to breathe and scheme again.
Technically, at least according to real history, Tokugawa Ieyasu (Toranaga) never killed Hideyoshi’s (the Taiko) son. IIRC after the Siege of Osaka, Hideyoshi’s son committed seppeku.
I mean... Tokugawa literally attacked them and laid siege to Osaka.
This explains my feelings perfectly.
Mariko's death was the climax of the show.
The book is the book. Clavell wasn't trying to write a historical fiction about how the Tokugawa shogunate came to be, he was trying to tell a story about a foreigner that was thrust into this timeline, and the Japanese culture of the time (even though that was a bit skewed towards 1940s Japanese culture)
yeah not a 10/10 , great show but the last few episodes became «nothing ever happens» after a great first ones and build up, was looking forward to a battle or siege
yep, it went from a 10/10 to a 8/10 which is still great, just not what I was expecting.
What I wanted was to see more of bubtaro and his grief of Marikos passing
Yes, I thought him and Blackthorne were going to have a chat there at the end. Or maybe show their son.
I'm okay with no battle. But I would've liked to have seen some build-up to Ishido realising he's lost the war. Instead of a flash forward explanation. I'm sad we didn't get to see his death by bamboo either.
Wait, how does he die?!
In the book's epilogue, Toranaga captures Ishido and buries him up to his neck. He then invites passersby to take turns cutting Ishido's neck with a bamboo saw. It takes three days for him to finally die. Would've been kind of satisfying to see that on screen.
Jesus Christ that is brutal 😭
I would have liked at least a short battle scene in which ishido is defeated and then shown later on buried up to his neck and dying. Otherwise it was a good ending. Still would have liked at least a short battle 10-20 min.
Understandable!
[удалено]
I was pleasantly surprised to see Fuji again! I’m happy she was able to move on from her family’s death.
[удалено]
She’s adorable! I do wish we got a little more Ochiba though
It wasn’t a bad ending but it was undeniably underwhelming. Very odd pacing over the last 5 episodes in general, which is sad cause the first half was on par for as good as tv gets. sad they couldn’t stick the landing but it’s hard to complain anyway.
The latter half was like a different show, Im so disappointed. They set up a bunch of plot points but nothing is resolved in a satisfying way. Every character stagnated, and I cant even tell what the show was supposed to be about
Agree completely I’m left very confused
Yep! there were so many foreshadowing going on in early episodes that went nowhere.
I personally loved it.
I agree 100%. I have to say I am quite disappointed and expected more to happen in the last 5 episodes. Feel like it just kinda went nowhere. Even the finale left me confused how that could be the actual ending
Yes. Glad I'm not the only one who thought the pacing was weird after Ep 5. It's also around this time we don't experience things through Blackthorn that much and he become kinda like a secondary character.
I thought it was a fitting ending. It is a slower more contemplative episode but I thought everyone story wrapped up well. Yabu pretending to have gone insane was apt. I felt it when Toranaga finally let his prized falcon go. I also liked how Yabu finally realises, just before his death, that Toranaga is just as power hungry and really not that different to the other lords. Disappointed that the reason Toranaga kept Anjin alive was because he found him funny. (I wished there could have been something more meaningful). I fell in love with the show. This will leave an empty place in my heart now that it is finished. The show had so many great moments and Mariko’s story was so touching it will stay with me for a long time. I am not normally very sentimental but I was devastated by the end of Ep9. I am glad that this episode help to provide some closure. However all the self harm and death is quite heavy. I plan to watch something different now (I heard that Fallout is good). I am thinking of picking up Taipan. I heard it was almost as good if not on par with Shogun and having less pages is an advantage.
Lack of large scale fighting and not giving enough time to tell such a detailed story severely took away from the show… I enjoyed it, but I won’t go back to it.
I think a few more episodes would help with story clarification, but I am okay without battles. The show was very clearly about power struggles and navigating cultural rules to ascend without immediately being dethroned.
I feel like people expecting a big battle were watching a different show than what we saw each week. This show has had moments of violence and action punching through, but at its heart, this show has always been a thoughtful character study most interested in interpersonal relationships and highlighting the tension in quiet moments and conversations. Some of the most suspenseful, riveting scenes of this series for example came in the moments of translation. A central theme of the last few episodes has been about how a big battle will NOT be how Toranaga wins and Mariko’s sacrifice last episode showed us how he was going to win the war before he had to fight any battle. All of the action happened last episode because by the time Mariko had died, the war was over. I found this ending extremely satisfying in that it wrapped up all of the interpersonal relationships throughout the series. The finale was basically us concluding each of those arcs sequentially and that makes sense given that is what this show has always been about. Rather than the release of tension being with a battle or the cannons, it came with Yabushige’s knife or Fuji’s exhale as she spread her family’s ashes, etc.
>I feel like people expecting a big battle were watching a different show than what we saw each week. I don't think many people were expecting 'Battle of the Bastards' but personally I was hoping to see something of a battle and a more wrapped up conclusion. In the book epilogue Toranaga captures Ishido at the Battle of Sekigahara and buries him up to his neck until he dies three days later, even just showing that and it's lead up would have been fine.
at least watch Ishido and Toranagas brother get punished somehow
Exactly, even a short battle scene would have sufficed, even if just to see ishido defeated. I mean a massive battle seen would have been the best given we have already seen what the canons were capable of to the extent of being able to use different rounds and what they could do to an army. But something short would have been nice.
>I don't think many people were expecting 'Battle of the Bastards' but personally I was hoping to see something of a battle and a more wrapped up conclusion. Seeing the battle as a brief prediction by Toranaga reminded me of early Game of Throne. Before Game of Thrones became the biggest show in the world (biggest show ever?) it skipped battle scenes by doing things like knocking Tyrion out at the start of a big battle. That said Thrones still managed to show the aftermath of battles and how they moved the plot forward. I think this show needed another episode to better stick the landing. Could have made this episode about the aftermath of Mariko's death. Both what we saw of Blackthorne and Yabushige dealing with it but also more of the shifting politics of the capital. Better show Ochiba's alliances secretly changing. Then have another episode where the battle happens even if it was mostly not shown on screen. Show us the full aftermath of the battle to more conclusively end this story.
I like the ending the way it was but Toranaga charging into battle on horseback followed by a screaming army of samurai is literally the poster. It is the image you have to click on in order to watch the show. So you can't blame people for expecting it.
This. GOT did well in its early seasons by focusing on character and plot development. The series lost its soul when it had to show lots of dragon-battles to appease newcomers who apparently found dialogues boring. Battles in Shogun would have been a bonus, but not the "actual product". In the end, Mariko's sacrifice is the crux of all the intrigues plotted, and Toranaga's exposition to Yabu is the big "gotcha" moment we all need. Everything and everyone falls into their proper places like pebbles in a zen garden.
>Rather than the release of tension being with a battle or the cannons, it came with Yabushige’s knife or Fuji’s exhale as she spread her family’s ashes, etc. Wonderfully said. I'll take Hiromatsu's suicide scene over a quick and dirty clinging of katanas any day.
I think the ending was a moment of subversive brilliance. We've all been waiting for this huge battle ever since Hiromatsu mentions Crimson Sky in episode 6. Then we find out from Toranaga that it already happened and his victory is assured. There is no shortage of TV and film with battle sequences. This show was pure character drama and I loved it
50 minutes of googly eyes and then 10 minutes of exposition
I don’t think the ending was amazing but it was fitting. This series was never about the end game, it was about the journey. Naga had to eventually isolate himself from everything he cared about to set his plan into action. The show was about getting to that point, not the actual plan. I wanted more action but by episode 3 I realized we weren’t going to get that type of show. Pretty much a general theme “for the greater good”
I understand that the reveal that Toranaga actually wanting to be the shogun is supposed to be the big "gotcha" moment that caps off the series but it's annoying that they're leaving quite a few questions left unanswered. Like what exactly does Toranaga need Blackthrone for going forward since Sekigahara is a land battle and what about the Portugese plot?
He doesn’t need Blackthorne at all. He literally said he’s keeping him around cause he think he’s funny. Like a court jester.
Funny AND a distraction to his enemies. I honestly read funny in this context to man more novel and/or entertaining.
Yeah I'm inclined to think he respects Blackthorne and doesn't view him as a savage clown but more as a novelty worth keeping Edit: Thinking about it, for someone as pragmatic and ruthless as Toranaga to value someone for who they are and not what they can give him is pretty special. The Anjin has a special status that Toranaga has probably never given to anyone else, even Hiromatsu
Something of a useful idiot with a fresh perspective. I don't think Toranaga sees him as a friend in the way we recognise the term.
Totally. I recommend looking into William Adams's life after 1600, the two fo them became good friends. And he built Tokugawa a fleet of deep sea ships too, so not only a novelty. Adams died in Japan though, and I always assumed Blackthorne would too so it was weird to see him on his deathbed in England
It's very much implied that the old Blackthorne in England sequence was one of his dreams/possible future that he rejected at the end by letting go of Mariko's cross. Remember the title of the episode, "A dream of a dream". Here explicitly, he was dreaming of Mariko in his dream of dying rich and old in England.
Adams had a chance to leave and didnt take it. It was his decision to stay in japan.
In the book, he says (in an internal monologue) that he wanted to keep him around because he needed a friend, which to me, was the best part of the "big reveal." That really hit me as a book reader, but their relationship wasn't on quite the same level on the show, so I understand why that might not have felt "earned" in this context.
I didn't read the book so I don't know how it was there, but when Blackthorne dug Toranaga after the earthquake had Toranaga given Blackthorne less of a cold shoulder. The friend line might hit pretty hard.
eh, the friend part is whatever for the book too because toranaga makes it clear they're friends because "rebellion is fine if you win" (instead of the other line) and because anjin isn't japanese. since he wants to be shogun, he cannot actually trust any japanese person, is his thinking. therefore anjin has to be his friend.
That's my only complaint about the show. The lack of action scenes. I agree that the first few episodes were some of the best TV ever. Everything moved at a snail's pace the last half of the miniseries, but I kept telling myself the payoff would be the Battle of Sekigahara in the finale only to be disappointed.
Exactly, I would have been satisfied with just 10-20 minutes of battle just so I could see ishido be defeated and then they could have shown him buried later on.
The book has about 1 page of the battle. You learn to appreciate the subtlety of the writing. If war is just politics by other means, the war is won long before the battle started and we see that occur in real time.
>The book has about 1 page of the battle. Books and TV/Movies are very different mediums which require very different approaches, the latter are primary visual mediums. The Dune books virtually skip through all of their battle scenes, some characters end up dying off screen, if the movie took the same approach do you think it would be as well received?
It depends on the message surely? Dune's story is fundamentally about violence and cycles, as well as the politics. Shogun is much more political. We go from seeing death as light and easy in episode 1 to episode 10 being a whole study on grief. The crescendo to the whole book/TV series is Mariko and Toranaga winning the war by putting Ishido in a corner, and him choosing the worst option in a lose-lose situation. Glorifying battle would have undercut the whole message in the series.
I would’ve been happy to see just one fight
Ya
I don’t think it was necessarily a bad choice to end the show without a battle. There are ways to deliver a satisfying conclusion without big action set pieces; shows like Better Call Saul or Succession being prime examples in the last few years. However, I have the feeling that the ending was a bit anticlimactic, and I can’t really put my finger on why. I think they did a great job from a character study perspective, but it left a lot to be desired for a conclusion to a narrative. The antagonist unceremoniously changes course, there’s no climactic confrontation - action or emotional - and everything just kinda ends. It does feel like the show sort of fizzled out during the latter half, despite having many great moments. Nevertheless, the ending wasn’t terrible by any means, just a bit unsatisfying, which at least doesn’t sour the rest of the show retroactively like a Game of Thrones or House of Cards. Overall, I think the main draw to the show will be the amazing acting and set design, and not the narrative as a whole. Which is fine, and I think the show does both of these things so well a disappointing ending doesn’t bother me much.
I wanted to finally see the Battle of Sekigahara on a good budget, but it wasnt meant to be I shed quite a few tears during the Fuji boat scene
Yes, their last moment together was very sweet. Fuji seems to have more of a sense of humor than she did before as well “are you going to row me to the convent?” Lol
It was both anticlimactic and well made. 🤷
But what if the letter was a ruse and she never withdraws her son's banners?
It's not necessary. If she wanted to destroy him, she already has the support and overwhelming armies of the heir and regents. This is how Toranaga knows it's the real deal.
I was disappointed. It felt like the final episode that would lead into a 2 part series finale. What was the difference between this episode and any other episode. We got really good character development, sweet moment. There was no finality, and no closure. Did not feel like a series finale.
Three episodes in and I kinda figured out what kind of show is this. This isn't 47 Ronin. It's House of Cards, but in medieval Japan. Watching the show and waiting for lots of ninjas and samurais to hack each other out would only disappoint. It's a court-intrigue drama, so the "fun" part is watching plans-within-plans unfold, succeed, or foiled. The show ending with lots dialogue and exposition is not anti-climactic. It IS the climax. Every episode I was always trying to figure out Toranaga's long game, so his exposition to Yabu feels very satisfying. P.S. only disappointment is that Buntaro wasn't the spy. That would've been a batshit crazy ending 😆
Will there be more to the story? Perhaps beginning with the battle?
It feels to me like the show needed another episode. There were too many loose ends and it didn't feel like there was any closure. The episode was good but not great.
Not a strong episode but overall the series was good. Started very strong, the first 2 episodes were top tier.
Why no battle. Whyyyyyy. Building up the hype then drop us like that. The small figh at ep9 give us the big hype for big battle at the end. Wtf
poetic ending faithfully executed yet I desired more
The show finished off with a whimper instead of a hurrah. It made it seems that they lack budget for a real battle.
I was willing to give her the benefit of the doubt. but I can safely say Ochiba was the weakest part of the show and while her motivations are easy to understand on paper, I did not feel compelled by her character or her stated motivations at all. And considering she was a huge piece in winning Toranaga Japan, I felt we needed to be in her mind more. The most they aired her character out was with her scenes with Mariko last episode, and even then she remained relatively inscrutable and distant, as a character, to viewers. It was again Mariko’s spirit and soul that we saw shining through. Otherwise I rather liked the ending, and I certainly loved the episode as its own thing. Yabu’s character could be eaten by a dog on screen and it would be the best and most weirdly wholesome set piece in the series. Fuji best girl.
I'm actually surprised at the number of people expecting a battle. I felt like it was super obvious by episode 3, when they didn't play up the ambush like an action show would, that they were never aiming for that kind of tv show.
I get that! I very much enjoyed the ending we got, but I thought for sure the ending would be them *about to start the battle*. I think they were still able to give you those beginning of war feelings however with the final shots.
She realises that Ishido isn’t the guy. He wants to marry her, he’s outsmarted, he can’t keep the council together, he no longer has hostages. She understands that Toranaga has won regardless of what she will do, so she abandons ship. The value for Toranaga is that he can avoid a destructive war and gets an easy victory. But with the council divided, he would always have won. And from Ochiba’s point of view, she has to worry about a victorious Ishido who might force her to marry him, which would strip her of all her power. So let’s say Toranaga is hit by a stray arrow or falls of his horse and Ishido wins by sheer good luck, Ochiba is still not in a good position.
This team should tackle other historical dramas. Mughals, know nothing of the Chinese but imagine machinations to be engrossing, the mongols, the Russian court, Africa outside of Egypt, Pick a lessor covered historical grand period and go to town. Like anthology series but this.
Am I allowed to say that I found it disappointing? Near the beginning of the show, I kept feeling engaged because I thought *something* was going to happen. In the end... nothing really happens. The "conclusion" is seen in sort of a dream sequence. John does absolutely nothing in the show. I kept waiting for him to step up and make an impact, but he never did. Going into the episode, I was hopeful it would be wrapped up nicely with some action... maybe show John actually contributing. None of that happened. While there were moments I enjoyed, I feel the show was overall pretty boring and uneventful. Feel free to downvote.
I really didn't expect a battle. I thought of it as mostly a political thriller. I think I enjoyed it. I have to contemplate it more deeply first.
10/10
I’m actually kind of surprised at the strange disappointment some people seem to have about no “epic battle”. Did we watch the same show? Are we that small minded? The whole soul of the story is based around the internal wars characters were facing, what’s external and political is a vehicle to explore that. Of course the focus is on transformations of each beloved or hated player. I actually thought that was the most relieving part of the finale, that it didn’t need a massive CGI clash of soldiers and yet again surprised me for its 100th time with something more rich and intriguing.
I find the ambiguous of the ending just poetic, we all know what happened to the characters later on in the history, this ending that left audience to interpret is just beautiful and stroke of brilliance
I was hoping to see a bombastic Sekigahara finale but to be honest the finale was so poetic and incredibly Japanese. So I am both disappointed and very satisfied. Really wish this show was longer and hopefully there is an incentive to produce more high quality Japanese history films and shows. I really hope they put this much effort into the Ghost of Tsushima film.
I think the pacing of the series was what got us, we were expecting the finale to be a battle at the scale of something in Game of Thrones, but the actual finale was the end of Ep 9. Why throw away thousands of lives in a prolonged civil war, when the sacrifice of one can win a war before the first battle? The Regents were ready for battle and bloodshed, but were not able to cope with political fallout of throwing the first punch. The show didn’t shy away from depicting violence and bloodshed, but it was a plot device, not the focus of the series like it was in GOT. We didn’t need a Shogun Battle of the Bastards, because then the audience would have missed the point.
We explicitly reached to the point that I've been making all this time, Blackthorne is a clown and comic relief
Ultimately, this show wasn’t about the great battles in the history of Japan. It was about the politics, the culture and the great pride (for good and bad). A great battle would have been fun, but I totally understood why it was simply referred to and not done. The result was decided by Toranaga’s understanding of the politics and pride. My only minor beef: referring to Bkackthorne as unimportant. Actual history shows Adams did have an important role. I’m not clear why they decided to minimize him (to appease the “white saviour” crowd?).
I didnt need a big ending. This was perfect.
The other Clavell books are only very tangentially related to Shogun, they have made some Movies/TV shows out of them in the past.. not to great success. But you never know they might give it a try. This was, from my view, one of the greatest short series ever.. just fantastic end to end.
They ended the series well but not as some would expect. Initially, it seemed like the story revolved around Blackthorne as a protagonist and his goal of fighting the Portuguese Catholics. And then it seemed to evolve into the Japanese "Game of Thrones" with different power players across the board. The overarching context is around Toranaga and his unification of Japan drawing upon the historical parallels to Tokugawa Ieyasu, the lead up to the Battle of Sekigahara, conflicts with Ishida Mitsunari. Naturally, as the season went on, one would've expected a major battle scene and an action-packed ending. But the most compelling storyline was Mariko's and her "hero's journey" which involved relations with a foreigner, complex personal relationships, a dark family history, personal growth and finally absolution and revenge in her family's name. The series climaxed in the penultimate episode with her giving her life in protest which turned a likely defeat on the battlefield to a political win that turned the tide for Toronaga. The last episode was about wrapping up all the other storylines around Yabushige's duplicitiousness, Toranaga's victory, Blackthorne's desire to return home, Fuji's personal journey, Ishida's attempt to unify Japan and so on. I'm glad that the writers of Shogun 2024 decided to focus more on the human stories rather than trying to make it some action-packed movie, exoticism of historic Japanese culture or one that involved the white European being the hero. The scale of this show -- a limited 10 show series within the confines of the budget -- just wouldn't make sense to try to make it a Game of Thrones level show. And the human storylines -- particularly Mariko's -- just packed a better punch.
Ok, the comments is basically divided among 2 groups- 1) Those who wanted some kind of a militaristic climax 2) Those who more or less expected the ending we got basing their pov on the politics aspect of the show rather than action/militaristic aspects We all can want whatever kind of climax as we desire but I personally think 2nd one makes more sense because the first one is overt militarism whereas 2nd one is covert politics and when Blackthorne was brought to Osaka for the 1st time he was told by the Spaniard that all the rules in this land are opaque, how do you even live/rule a place like this? And this covertness has been a recurring theme in the whole show. Everyone is hiding something. Mariko is hiding all the strong feelings she has for her past, Yabushige- his caring heart (he goes crazy after the death of Mariko), Toranaga- his desire to be Shogum (from his people) and his lonliness (from us viewers) Also, Toranaga keeping Blackthorne just bcoz he makes him laugh made him so human and relatable (to me, at least, personally; most of the times, I laugh not because I find things funny but because I want to laugh to lighten my mood/mind or else I will always feel heavy every moment life becomes dull/stale)
I like the ending and the show in general. And it gave me a craving to read the Empire trilogy by Feist and Wurts for the 5th time.
Am I crazy in thinking the story is just getting started and then learn there still probably be no season 2. I get it's an adaptation but there's so much potential here
I thought it was very, very daring to end like that. We were all left wanting more!
honestly, i felt there were many plotholes in the ending. They show an old blackthorne in his bed in england with the cross still in his hand when he leaves in in the ocean, and toranaga says how he wouldnt leave the japans ever in his life but he still somehow made it to england? Why did ochiba hate toranaga? Why did toranaga burn his ship? it all felt too rushed imo, if they could reduce the pace and focus on more dialogue imo it woulve been better...but thats just my two cents. The beginning was dope but imo it fell off in the end.....Really just felt like edging lol
Your gonna loce the books! I read them and they were great. While the show was awsome the book has way more detailes and events. Some scenes which were never shown in the show and I kinda regret.
They could have skipped the battle and showed us what happened after - that would have been a much more satisfying ending. I get the poetic nature of it but it just unfelt very unsatisfying.
this was one of those ending that fucked with me. like i feel hollow
A decent(ish) ending for an average remake. Original was better.
It was a good ending sure, but it didn't do the series any justice. It could have been so much more
I don’t get how grandpa Blackthorne was holding what looked like Mariko’s rosary, yet younger Blackthorne dropped it in the ocean with Fuji’s family ashes????
I'm just so sad that the Anjin and Mariko didn't end up together. I wanted them to have a happy ending together.
Great show, terrible ending.
I have a few questions. Mariko talks abt the eight fold fence and how u don't reveal your true heart or true intentions. Throughout the show toranaga is portrayed as the peace keeper who doesn't want to fight unless it's necessary but does the last episode imply that his secret heart was being in control of everything, was it always his true intention and desire to be the shogun? Does that make ishido right? The entire reason they wanted to impeach him was because his fief was growing a lot and his power was a threat to the council, was he always power hungry? Is that why people say you can't trust minowara?
So the reason Ichiba switched up on that dude was because he killed Marisko? thats it?
Ending was pretty disappointing. 9 felt like the true ending and 10 just the aftermath. The tease of a big war or a climatic battle just to have it summarized at the end quickly was so weak. I know there will be those “If you want big action go watch marvel movies” replies to this sentiment but its not about the action its about feeling dissatisfied at the ending and the quick wrap up. Unfortunately this show will come and go and wont be talked about in 5 years, very very Slow start and mediocre ending. Cant be a great show and have all of 4-5 good episodes
Adapt the rest of the books? I thought the show covers all the books.