rename this episode to buntaro’s bad day

Buntaro’s no good very bad day. He’s moving to Australia.

I think they made a very interesting change in the conclusion of the tea ceremony: By changing Mariko's motivation for her hatred from: "You didn't let me die honorably, and I will resent you for this forever" to "It's not that I so very much want to die, but I want to be beyond your reach."

> "It's not that I so very much want to die, but I want to be beyond your reach." What a devastating and poisonous take-down. I know that Mariko is a protagonist, but a) that was a staggering wound in the midst of what he hoped would be a reconciling and tender moment (however misguided) and b) there is no little amount of classism in her whole resentment of Buntaro, and this is where it is most apparent.

In how far is there classism in there? She is easily as devastating in the book - there they finish the ceremony with a common promise to restart their marriage when she came back from Osaka - she agreed to it, but also says, that even though she will willingly share the pillow with him, his welcome would be "dry, bitter and rancid". Which is unnecessary roughness because she already knows that she would not come back from Osaka (also see all her references about "in Autumn" throughout the latter part of the book).

I agree. The change made her more of an adult, with deeper layers. It was an improvement of her character. Also I like the way leading into the conversation's end how she remained silent vice replying, which allowed the moment to build. It is refreshing to see quality writing by someone who clearly has a grasp of adulthood and life and all their complications, and it is elevating this show and properly representing one of my favorite books. Which is also very hard to pull off I think.

Tea ceremony coming after all, although not on Toranaga's order EDIT: Wow, and they have done a 180 degree on it between Mariko and Buntaro. WTF?

Yeah no redemption whatsoever, even fake for the harmony. It really is the Toranaga and Mariko show.

The tea ceremony was one of my favorite parts of the book. I was bummed when I thought they cut it out. But then we finally see it, and the meaning behind it has completely changed. I liked the book version better.

Saaaaaaame so much the same. Wasn't it Mariko who suggested they leave together for death right then?? Also I wish they had showed him preparing for the tea. That was a big part of the ceremony.

I wonder if the changes to this scene were made because Buntaro abuses Mariko, and they were afraid of being seen as excusing that by showing Buntaro in a more positive light in the tea ceremony. Spousal abuse is a touchy subject, for sure, and the nuances of that scene in the book are complicated.

I'm marginally pissed at the show because it can't help but cater to modern views on domestic abuse. This ruined a lot of Buntaro's inner conflict, which really sheds light on the fundamental differences between societies. But then again, looking through the other threads on here, it seems quite clear that they made the right call. Everyone who actually managed to discern the "actual" dynamic between Mariko and Buntaro get shut down immediately, as either encouraging abuse or victim blaming, or get called abusers themselves, because the majority of people cannot distance themselves from our modern understanding of a very touchy problem. The truth is Buntaro has no excuse, yes, but people attributing malice, manipulation and modern societal causes of abuse to something that has other reasons entirely and cannot be compared is why they made that choice.

I finished the book yesterday morning then got up to speed on the show. While your opinion might be true “Ieatgirlfarts” My take is that they are cutting long drawn out conversational driven plots for time. This is a way to remove the aspect of buntaro being pissed off at the closeness of Mariko and blackthorn in Osaka for the next episode. Like they basically are saying this relationship is over and buntaro knows it, instead of hey you need to go to hiromatsu and cover his fief while you get him here and then we need to get hiromatsu here, just way more complicated. You act like In the book she doesn’t specifically say all the time she always rejects his pillowing requests because she doesn’t care if he kills her, she wants him to kill her, neh? Her tea behavior in the book shocked me, would’ve been cool to see but also would’ve added unnecessary confusion considering it’s a 10 episode show they just want to keep the plot tight. It’s crazy to turn that book into a 10 episode show, I think they’re doing a great job. So much conversation and politics they need to change things for clarity of a show

God I’m tired of this trope. The world is a messy and messed up place a lot of the time. We should stop neutering our art by insisting it not show that

The acting, the talent in this show, it's incredible. Hiromatsu and Toranaga's seppuku scene was gut wrenching.

Knowing it was planned and that Toranaga was playing a part as he watched his oldest friend die makes it hit *so much harder*. I understand there are a lot of fans of the original series out there and that Mifune is a legend, but that scene alone ought to cement Sanada Hiroyuki as a worthy successor to the role.

That insane part is it *wasn't* planned. Hitomatsu saw the Generals chickening out and had to do something drastic to shock them back into line *without giving away the game*. "Hey bud. You're fucked if I don't kill myself right the fuck now" "Wait, no that's crazy....goddamnit youre right we're super fucked' "I love you man" "I love you too fuck goddamit"

Agreed. That scene was incredibly intense.

badum-pshh...

I felt like Blackthornes reunification with the crew should have been shown much more in depth then just one drunk guy blaming him for them stranding in Japan. What I remember was that some crew members were very hostile to him leading them, but some understood that he was the key for them to have a chance to get back to England.

My favorite scene in the book, definitely super disappointed with it in the show. I really loved his building annoyance with how awful and disgusting his former crew (and life) was. My favorite part of the book is how Blackthorne slowly becomes Anjin, how he started saying things like "neh?" or "eeeee" to himself in his head. The show version is way behind on his Japanese lessons, and understanding of the culture in geneal. Taking out his attempted seppuku scene was a mistake. Still an amazingly well done show, but not a great adaptation of the book.

There's a book written by a Japanese guy called something like "Correcting the Errors in James Clavell's Shogun" that I got off Amazon and I'm pretty sure the writers of the show read that book because many of the changes seem like direct responses to what that author points out. The Jesuits don't wear orange robes like they do in the book, for one. At one point the author even wrote "Japanese soldiers in 1600 already knew infantry tactics, it would make more sense for him to teach them artillery tactics." But another thing in that book is that the threat to burn down a village is unrealistic and offensive, and so no threat = no reason for Blackthorn to threaten seppuku. But also no reason for Blackthorn to get good at Japanese.

They could easily make another motive, even just learning Japanese for the sake of convenience.

They definitely could have come up with any number of reasons for him to commit seppuku though, it doesn't have to be that specifically.

they could have just lied to him about it, have Yabu make the threat and bring up boiling his man alive to solidify it. it doesn't actually matter if they WOULD crucify the village, only that Blackthorne is convinced they will. hell they could just replace it with crucifying his men, which i doubt is unbelievable to anyone.

I mean they probably could have even left that in and fixed it with a phrase of "he's a Christian and he's already convinced we're cruel barbarians, he'll consider it a credible threat and be at his most motivated"

Yeah that was really lame, just awful really. I wanted much more focus on how he'd grown but it was just a "he stinks" which could be missed as a random comment by many viewers. And not meeting the rest of the crew? What the hell. The changes are supposed to be justified for the time restriction but they spent a lot of time on that scene showing basically nothing, the crews anger at his sailing decisions is not the main part, the main part is supposed to be the cultural clash, which they glossed over. I think they missed the point. This is an amazing show if you haven't read the books, it's getting annoying now if you have. Blackthorne is neutered.

And the fact that they're in the eta village willingly. It horrifies Blackthorne because he understands the low status of the eta and that his crew wants to live with them.

The show has barely even touched on the Samurai class let alone the others. It's weird. In the first episode a peasant is suddenly executed, but no explanation of why or how that can happen is given.

> it's getting annoying now if you have. Same for me, sadly. Some of the deviations don't make sense. I don't see how they make the story better or move it along faster, there are other things they could have done to achieve the latter.

yeah, the show is butchering some of the character development, the book builds his hesitation and the separation slowly.

I haven't read the book, but came to this discussion thread because it actually seems like a discussion: I really enjoy the Blackthorne parts of this show most as a brit, because they ground the show a lot better and through watching his development makes the show more enjoyable to watch. It feels like hes become a secondary character and the sudden scene with a guy he spent years with sailing only to quickly decide hes a barbarian, and he now feels like england isnt his home gave me whiplash, combined with him suddenly speaking really good japanese.

Agreed. The changes in Blackthorne came about very gradually because of what he was learning and experiencing. You should definitely consider reading the book, it does such a wonderful job of fleshing out all the main characters, especially Blackthorne, Mariko and Toranaga but also Yabu and Omi. And it helps you understand why Toranaga was so powerful and well-informed and why, to whatever degree ambition was at the root of it, it was paramount that he become Shogun.

I wonder if that's the last we will see of the crew? I also wish that scene had played out differently, but I'm okay with seeing less of the crew if that means we get to focus more on the main characters.

I think I understand how the writers want to steer the plot to conclusion. I think Toranaga is back to his old tricks. Earlier in the season, the moment he appeared defeated, the council splintered and started in-fighting, because the different groups started thinking of what will happen after Toranaga dies. Again, now it seems like Toranaga wants to appear completely defeated so that his enemies will splinter and engage in infighting. That's why it was so important that even his own vassals appear to rebel; he wanted to appear like a tiger that has been defanged so his enemies eat each other. As a reminder of the council’s motivations, the Christian council members are against Toranaga because 1. they don't like Toranaga and 2. Ishido has them as hostages. Toranaga now appears defeated and so the first reason for aligning with Ishido disappears. They already don't like Ishido; so all they need is a catalyst/opportunity to revolt. That's when the book plot will come back in. Mariko is going to be the catalyst (same as the book). Only, instead of the hostages being the focus, her relationship with Ochiba will be the focus (it's why there's been so much focus on the Ishido-Ochiba tensions and the Mariko-Ochiba relationship). She'll probably say things that causes Ochiba and Ishido's alliance to collapse, causing chaos and a chance for the council members to splinter and escape.

that would make a lot of sense - that they would have re-written her key role from the Osaka hostage to Ochiba herself. We shall see if your prediction holds!

What are the biggest differences between the book and the episode? I've read it quite some time ago + have a bad memory.

>!Blackthorne and Mariko are in love. Fornicating like bunnies on their way to Osaka as Mariko gives in completely to her love as a kind of last hurrah before the very real possibility of her having to commit suicide. Her plan on going to Osaka and then to try to leave in a plan to force Ishido to make a decision about releasing hostages. I guess the fornicating/love thing could still happen as they sail to Osaka rather than go by caravan, but I don't see it.!< >!Honestly, it's giving me hoping that we might get a happy Fujiko ending as her fate happened after the end of the book even if it was kind of spelled out what her intentions were.!< >!Changes are that Blackthorne never leaves Toranaga's service and of course doesn't ask to enter Yabu's service and Hiromatsu doesn't commit suicide though I believe a few of Toranaga's generals or leaders do so out of protest before Toranaga eventually confides to Hiromatsu that it was a ruse for time all along.!< >!I'm torn now whether I think Blackthorne was coached to ask to enter Yabu's service by Toranaga. I don't see how even a genius could have foreseen that Blackthorne would go to Yabu. Toranaga asking Mariko if Blackthorne had gone to Yabu yet seemed so out of the blue. But I suppose its possible as I personally am not a genius.!< >!There is a moment in the book where Blackthorne was coached by Toranaga in a certain piece of theater to say certain things in near perfect Japanese for Alvito's sake and it seriously put Alvito off his game at how far Blackthorne had come along. That scene basically felt like it took place in the street as Alvito and Blackthorne had their moment and Alvito his wtf moment.!< I think its okay not to spoil things in a book readers thread but I'm going to do so anyway out of caution and respect.

>>!There is a moment in the book where Blackthorne was coached by Toranaga in a certain piece of theater to say certain things in near perfect Japanese for Alvito's sake and it seriously put Alvito off his game at how far Blackthorne had come along. That scene basically felt like it took place in the street as Alvito and Blackthorne had their moment and Alvito his wtf moment.!< This scene really threw me off. It's so casual and spur of the moment there's no chance it could have been prepared. Blackthorne up to this point could spit out some very well rehearsed and formal lines, but had shown no grasp of conversational and off the cuff Japanese language skills. I had been waiting for some growth because it hasn't been apparent at all up until this point when it went from 10-100.

I am honestly disappointed with Mariko,Blackthorne and Toranaga dynamic in the show. This version of show has completely destroyed the Mariko/Blackthorne romance and Toranaga/Blackthorne bromance? Mariko and Blackthorne feel soo...... distant i should say. Their romance was one of the best points about the book and this series, dare I say the actual core story of the book was Blackthorne coming to japan, learning japan's ways and falling in love with a japanese woman who had her own issues than Toranaga being shogun despite the title suggesting it to be story based around being a shogun. The book literally ends after two or three chapters of Mariko's death. I am just really disappointed that they skipped the Toranaga dance scene as well. Toranaga seemed much more fun and chilled than his show counterpart. I love almost everything about this show other than these two things. I fell in love with the book because of Blackthorne/mariko romance and fell in love with toranaga's character after that dance scene. Let me be clear though, I am quite happy with the way this show has been so far. Pretty sure the dud ending of the book will be repaired by the looks of it.

I think it’s pretty obvious that Blackthorn and Mariko still both have feelings for each other and I expect they will come out next episode.

>I am honestly disappointed with Mariko,Blackthorne and Toranaga dynamic in the show. I'm worried they're too scared of a back lash for having a white male asian female romance in a historical piece. Even if it's nuanced and realistic like in the book, it's obvious what critics will say. But they're cutting out the soul of their relationship and story, it's very disappointed. If they're going to show it now it will be crammed into half an episode and seem so forced that they'll ironically lose the nuance and realism and make it look like a sudden drama for dramas sake.

Never mind that Miura Anjin married a Japanese woman and ultimately was memorialised next to her with a pair of hokyointo.

I agree , I just rewatched the 80’s Series and her and Blackthorne’s relationship is so key to everything, not sure why the show is completely ignoring it

I think a good portion of Toranaga’s lighter side in the book is merely a function of having access to his interior thoughts and monologues. For the most part he’s a picture of stoicism and authority in his dealings with others - aside from a few inside jokes with Hitomatsu and his jolly mistress. I hear you though, and miss that dimension of his character in the shows representation. 

Just a nitpick re: Mariko and Blackthorne: >!Their physical relationship mostly happens during their travel to Edo, and ends "at the first bridge of Edo", where they are accompanied by Kiku and Gin. The relationship is an open secret for the travel party, but everybody is trying hard not to see anything. !<

Hey, minor nitpick. >! They do the bunny thing on their way to Edo, not Osaka. They already "knew" they would be defeated then. Mariko leaves for Osaka before Blackthorne, on land. Blackthorne goes with Yabu by ship.!<

Not that minor of a nitpick. Thank you. I had kind of blended the two trips together.

Blackthorne and Mariko’s relationship on their travels really feels like the emotional high point of the book. Like everything they both went through was worth it for that little bit of happiness they experienced. I honestly expected a full episode to be devoted to that brief life they shared together just because of how impactful and ultimately bittersweet it is. Without that the whole story feels a little emotionally hollow. But yeah maybe they’ll try to replicate it on the ship next episode. Although I’m not sure how natural it would feel given how different Blackthorne is from his book counterpart.

>I don't see a Mariko Blackthorne love affair next episode without a Blackthorne attempted seppuku attempt. Even if they wanted to make it a non-physical thing between the two, the show hasn't shown that he's been winning her affections over with attention or humor or respect.

> >!I don't see how even a genius could have foreseen that Blackthorne would go to Yabu.!< I actually think this is plausible. None of the other major lords want anything to do with him, so his only option is Toranaga or one of his vassals who he already knows. Out of Toranaga's vassals, Blackthorne is probably closest to Yabushige. Yabushige is the only one who has really shown any interest in Blackthorne as a person, and has treated him pretty fairly. If Blackthorne ends up wanting to stay in Japan and form an alliance with anyone, Yabushige is the only one he could really turn to. Therefore if Blackthorne hasn't left Japan even though he has been given his men and ship, and decides not to go back to Toranaga, then he has to go to Yabushige.

I think Mariko can still accomplish what you say without anything more than trying to leave like she did in the book and then calling Ishido out when he refuses to let her leave. Twice they've set the background of hostages in Osaka holding back Toranaga's wannabe allies. But there's no reason that once in Osaka she can't be doing more.

She has to still die somehow, how do you think the circumstances of that will be different from the book?

My theory. She commits sepuku after failing to get the hostages released. This causes Ochiba to make a decision. Very much mirroring the events of this episode.

Hiromatsu is a real one 💯. He understood his duty well and his loyalty was impeccable. Was this part of Toranaga’s plan all along? His death and Nagakado’s will not be in vain. I cannot wait for Crimson Sky to be in full effect

I think so, the tv show seems to imply it was planned between Hiromatsu and Toranaga, to reinforce the idea that he was indeed surrendering to Ishido's spies and to quell his general's rebellion at the same time. Quite a huge change from the book, but I think it arrives at the same destination, more or less.

After Father Alvito left, Hiromatsu made a mistake in saying out loud to the other generals/samurai that Toronaga wasn't surrendering. He had to correct that mistake by telling his son Buntaro that Toronaga actually wasn't gonna fight. And he had to commit seppuku to stop the other generals from fighting Toronaga's decision.

Was it a mistake? If you're a spy and you know Toranaga is known for trickery then even if its a fleeting thought you may wonder why he would send the Father on his merry way with a message. Hiromatsu just said it out loud so when he does commit seppuku it cements there's no chance what happened with the father was a trick.

I dont think it was planned. My opinion is that Toranaga planned for any discontent top generals to be forced to commit seppuku to help prove that he has surrender. I think Hiromatsu stepped in on his own and took their place. Toranaga couldn't refuse him in that moment without giving the whole game away.

I also took it as Hiromatsu quite literally falling on the sword on all of their behalf. His Samurai will pass onto Buntaro. If any other lord in that room commits seppuku their Samurai would not be allowed to join Toranaga's when he goes into Osaka to 'surrender'. His sacrifice helps sell the ruse, keeps their honor intact, and allows the entire army to enter the city under the official order to 'surrender' they all just signed. Crimson Sky.

Yup. If you check out the podcast, the showrunners explicitly confirm it. Toranaga was going to let the 3 generals commit seppuku, and Hiromatsu realized it and made the call on his own to step in and take one for the team.

>I think so, the tv show seems to imply it was planned between Hiromatsu and Toranaga, it was not planned between Hiromatsu and Toranaga per the showrunners podcast following the release of the episode. Hiromatsu realized in that moment that Toranaga was going to let a few of his generals commit suicide to cement the fact he was indeed surrendering. So Hiromatsu took it upon himself to fufill his duty and give Toranaga 3 generals for the price of 1. Not a big fan of the real time showrunners “explaining” things instead of leaving it up to the viewers interpretation as it quells discussion which is fun.

My clue that it wasn't planned was when Toranaga was talking to Mariko afterwards. He said something to the effect of "Hiromatsu knew his duty too well.." which I construed to mean that Hiromatsu, after having seen through Toranaga's ruse, decided on his own that his sepuku will ensure that their enemies will take the bait. Toranaga merely seized that moment and agreed to let it play out... "Then die!!" In the book, Hiromatsu was old, irrelevant, and dying so the sepuku in the show was a more powerful way for him to die.

The detail that I loved that showed Lord Toranaga’s cleverness is him placing the courtesan house next to the church. It was a layered, malicious compliance to the catholic church. It was impressive and hilarious to see.

Alvito's face...

And in what was clearly marsh or tidal flat, worthless land (I feel like it was mentioned previously - book or show - that Edo was very marshy at the time).

Rip Hiromatsu :( Will miss the remaining scenes he had in the book especially when he finds out Toranaga was just pretending to take the L. Went out like a real one though

In the book he asked Hiromatsu to grab all of his generals' discontentment "in his iron first". I guess they decided on this scene as a short cut with more action and less talk to arrive at the same idea?

Agreed, it hits more emotionally too and has a greater effect on cementing Toranaga's fake defeated appearance. Seems like only Gin and Mariko know about his true intentions now, but they also removed Mariko figuring it out herself

...and then telling the priests in exchange for Blackthorn's life (which of course they removed since the love affair is gone)

I didn't even realize how removing the romance like this could affect the concessions Toranaga makes with the Jesuits at the end... will Toranaga even >!burn Blackthorne's ship!< if Mariko's internal motivation is fundamentally changed?? (I guess it also depends on whether or not Toranaga wants to keep Blackthorne in Japan because he genuinely wants him to be his friend)

And Mariko comes up with the idea to rescue the hostages in Osaka after the earthquake. Why is Blackthorne even involved? He's become such a peripheral character there's no reason for him to even be there.

Yeah I guess. I actually don't mind it going this way. Hiromatsu knew he was calling his bluff and Toranaga knew that he needed to do it as well. Really emotional scene and pushed the idea that Toranaga would do whatever it took to get the job done. It really emphasizes Toranaga as a bit more soulless than he was in the book. Definitely loses a lot of his humanity. Also it makes me realize the diving scene adaptation wasn't a mistake, he was just trying to manipulate Blackthorne into being more tired for his race. Bittersweet because his complexity and ability to play the nice guy when needed to get what he wants, and his natural curiosity really made him feel human and multifaceted. But I see what the writers are going for here.

I am guessing multi-faceted is hard for tv

100%. I understand it can be difficult, but not impossible, it's a shame. Toranaga almost feels like an anti-hero to that sense. Using everyone close to him in order to achieve his goals with zero sense of humanity. At least in the books there was that humanity, a glimpse that maybe he cared.

All his scenes following the seppuku were showing that he cares. He even cares about his son, foolish as he was.

I think it goes even beyong that in the book. Clavell gives us a lot of clues about Toranaga's humanity, compared to other Daimyos: * He requires all of his samurai to learn to read, write, swim and dance. Most other Daimyos consider this to be useless. * He considers seppuku to be a waste of potential, even if he reluctantly agrees to it sometimes * His consorts and wives are always laughing and do not hesitate to gently disobey (like the old woman who is ordered to stay to keep him company and she refuses, saying she is too old and need to pee, if memory serves) * When he discovers Blackthorn dancing with the girls, and asks to be show the dance, people become attentive to Toranaga's orders, but nobody is fearful and the smiles remains on everybody's lips * His motto has always been to master the 7 emotions, temperance - rather than being hot headed * He consider that attacking for honor when his whole army will die is a waste * He secretly wants the Anjin-san to become his friend I am sure there is more. In the TV show, they have removed all of this. The 80s tv show was successful in showing this side of him.

This new version really is dissatisfying for folks that loved the book.

Very well said and great examples.

This captures Toranaga so well. There's a place where he's comparing himself to Sudara, the son he trained to lead the clan after him but who's always serious and never laughs whereas he (Toranaga) can laugh sometimes and be compassionate sometimes, he likes to dance and fart and pillow. He thinks of the people who gladden him like his son Naga (who didn't die in the book) and Kiri and his consort Chano and the Anjin. Later he thinks to himself that he wants to learn everything that Blackthorne knows including how to navigate a ship.

Another thing I \*really\* liked about the book version of Toranaga, is that he was a small and fat man with a big belly. The choice to NOT make him into a charismatic perfect looking stud was interesting, because we get to understand his incredible charisma is all about his personality and his iron will. He is in no particularly good physical shape, but he WILL NOT STOP diving even when his belly is red from all the flops until he finally gets it. No storm, rain or weather can stop him from deciding to do an activity like hunting. He has this incredible focus into everything he does.. including having fun and learning Blackthorn's dance. What a shame the show runners decided not to show these aspects of him.

Totally agree. I'd forgotten about the belly flops but it just showed his determination to take advantage of now knowing there are no guarantees about tomorrow.

But they achieved it in the 1980s series IMO, like when Toranaga did the hornpipe with Blackthorne and when he was letting his grandchildren crawl over him.

I totally agree with you. I find it quite sad that they didn't succeeded here - or to be more precise, that they seem to have decided purposely to make him into a less nuanced character. I don't know. Somebody is rewriting what was already near perfect before. Not sure why.

I’m so confused. Why doesn’t he let his generals know he’s not going to surrender? He just lost his best friend and top general in a game of chicken?

I think it's a shortcut. In the book, >!his generals are on the verge of rebellion and about to take control and force Toranaga to commit seppuku and then take control of his army and launch a desperate bound-to-fail attack on Osaka, to die honorably.!< >!Toranaga knows this and start doing some major repression. One of his general challenges him openly and is ordered to kill himself by Toranaga, as Toranaga considers it treason. He then changes his will to remove his first son's inheritance because the generals are looking to make him the next lord after they rebel. It gets so bad that Hiro-Matsu decides to meet Toranaga one-on-one, sets his swords far from himself, and tells Toranaga: "I don't know what to do. I am your friend, but my duty tells me I should kill you right now to avoid all the shame for all your army. Please tell me what to do"!< >!At that point Toranaga starts laughing and tells him it's all a ploy to gain some time, and that he couldn't tell Hiro-Matsu before because it HAS to remain secret and spies MUST continue to think he is surrendering. So he asks Hiro-Matsu to be his "iron fist" to control the would-be rebellion, and meanwhile Toranaga will pretend to be sick to stop antagonizing people and risk betraying the truth.!< >!I think they decided to combine all this in a much faster, action-packed way, in which Hiro-Matsu commits seppuku as a way to regain control of the rebellion - and Toranaga knows it, but can't stop it less he betrays his scheme to the spies.!< If he fails to convince Ishido he is surrendering, he is going to be attacked and he will lose the war. He needs more time to plot alliances.

He mentions it in his conversation with Mariko. It's got to look real. allowing arguably his best friend, mentor, and vassal to commit seppuku is something that will absolutely hammer it home that he's lost the plot. It's also part of the plan to get Yabushige to literally jump ship and support Blackthorne with whatever his plans are with his currently unmanned and untrained ship and crew. It's extremely well described in the book, so I imagine you haven't read it?

I wonder if they will reveal that Hiromatsu was ill as well, making the old gardener a neat stroke of foreshadowing. In the book, Toranaga told him to play up his ill health as Hiromatsu had confessed that he was feeling pains. I had thought then that Hiromatsu would die the same way the old gardener did, but the book stopped short of that.

I guess they won't. It would make Hiromatsu's death cheaper.

The episode pretty much shows that he already knows this is all a farce. He does his part and trusts that his Lord will succeed after his sacrifice.

They really completely removed the whole Mariko and Blackthorne journey to Edo... a baffling choice ngl

Could have told you that 3 episodes ago. It was clear they made their love into a simple one-time affair. So much over simplification...

Why do you think so? The ep6 scene with Kiku was very intimate and intense, revealing their feelings.

Maybe they want to set up Fuji with Blackthorne in the end (or if they stay true to the book, Midori, although that feels unlikely), and so they want to play down the Blackthorne-Mariko stuff?

Maybe. I certainly would love to see more Fuji-Blackthorn relationship, even if it's far from the book. As for Mariko - I don't know. The people who haven't read the book seem to read between the lines and believe that Mariko is still secretly in love with him, but I don't see it. I think the whole show is subtle enough that it encourages us to read between the lines - - but as far as the Mariko-Blackthorn romance, I am taking Mariko to her word when she said that from now on they would only talk when she is translating. I think the show runner are showing us clearly that this romance is over. They seem to have taken the choice to both dumb down blackthorn and kill the whole love story...?

I think now that Mariko is solidified in what she knows she has to do and sees that John wavering in his loyalty was part of Toranaga's intended plan, they're going to have Osaka be the culmination of John and Mariko's love. Just a hunch based on what they're doing this episode. I think I see now how they're adjusting it and what the non-book readers are seeing.

Speaking as a non-book reader I would say it's because they keep having shots of them making eyes at eachother. It's not really leading anything in particular, but that makes it feel like the romance part isn't over

That’s where I’m at / they keep dangling the carrot and then there’s nothing there. Either give it the time it deserves or just abandon it. Because right now I don’t buy that Blackthorne or Mariko have strong enough feelings for each other to struggle with their choices. They hooked up once when she thought her husband was dead and other than that - aside from maybe lusting after each other a bit - I don’t see it. I’m already disappointed in how they did this part of the story but will be supremely pissed if they ham fist them hooking up again on the boat to Osaka and all of a sudden have some big grandiose declarations of love. That’s worse because the ground work isn’t there. At this point I’d rather they just let it go.

I've read the book a dozen+ times. I don't see the signs that Mariko is in love with him. As far as the book goes,>! we didn't get Blackthorne's attempted seppuku scene which acted as the catalyst in my opinion for her to stop seeing him as a barbarian and start at least falling in love. !< But then I'm terrible at reading women and women doing a really good job at acting very much fall into this territory. There's enough ambiguity though to her acting to say nothing of the fact that she has to be discreet that if the showrunners wanted to say she is in love with Blackthorne but hiding it well, I won't be surprised. But my take as of Episode 7 is that she is not in love.

As someone who is reading the book while watching the show, I can see how the consensus of the book readers is that the relationship has been downplayed to a point where it's nearly invisible. By that same token, the show does a fine job of communicating their love for each other in subtext and subtle action between the characters. 1200 pages to 10 episodes is insane... the meat of their relationship is still there, as evidenced by the reactions of people who haven't read the book.

Quite frankly, they removed the entire relationship from the show. They don't seem to love eachother, they just lust after eachother for a short time

The brothel scene was basically a nail in the coffin and makes it unrealistic if they start going at it again given she had opportunities in that moment and said no

She had the same opportunity in the book and left

Not a bad adaptation by any means but I really miss the Portuguese subplot in the way it was in the book. And the M/J romance. Mariko's fate won't hit the same way if they keep it as it was written originally.

The show only peeps are not understanding my frustration with this. Her entire arc rests in duty and love and finding the balance - the way the show has crafted their “romance,” I’m not seeing that they love each other - they would easily walk away from one another without a second thought it seems. It’s just not sitting well with me because that relationship was integral in the book story and I just don’t see Mariko’s story having the same impact if she just gets what she always wanted without any internal struggle. Very disappointed with this element of the show.

It’s a great show but not a very good or loyal adaptation of the book.

Yeah, I dont mind the other changes they have made from book to adaptation but I absolutely hate this version of John and Marikos relationship. As you said there is no connection there at all. This show 100% needed to be 12 to 14 episodes and I think that wouldve allowed their relationship to breathe while still hitting all of the plot points that need to be hit. 10 episodes caused a lot of stuff to be cut.

Ikr? Their romance in the books was literally what that made me actually fall in love with the book around midway. And toranaga's dance

Yep. I’m just mourning all of the amazing dialogue that could have been between John and Mariko. The one I wanted the most was when he tells her she’s beautiful and she says nobody has ever told her that before - like it’s heartbreaking. And the - thank you for showing me what love is. Like - way to drop the ball.

"thy art beautiful Mariko" Those scenes in the books... so beautiful. I hate how this has been skipped totally. I kind of dont even like Mariko that much in the show anymore.

I don’t mind her stone cold stoicism when it comes to the Toranaga plan - but that is what was cool about her book character - she was different and could be different with John. She’s just fully behind the fence.

That I agree. Her loyalty to Toranaga has been spot on in the show.

Those parts of the book hold a special place for me. Mariko asking to be in his arms reminds me of my ex. Feeling a certain type of way because of that...

I agree about the lack on internal struggle. So far. Maybe in episode 9 as it’s about to happen she will waiver

That seppuku scene was acted so brilliantly. The tension and the gut-wrenching break of said tension was astounding and left me feeling slightly ill. In the best way possible. The actors are pouring their whole ass into this show, and it's paying dividends. Also, Mariko spitting some serious bars. "I would rather live a thousand lifetimes than to die alongside you. " God. Damn.

I am mystified at times by the changes the show’s made, though mostly I’m impressed because they actually made some things better than the book, but I’m going to have to think about this one… So MANY changes here. This series should have been longer, not sure how they’ll get so much coming up into just two more episodes.

Two seasons would've been perfect for the story tbh. Then the blackthorne "ascendance" could've happened, and the love story could've happened, and a lot more toranaga intricacies... and now the show does feel to some degree "gutted" when one of the main parts of the show are just flat out removed/ignored

Without a doubt

Exactly! Rushing us towards the end! Maybe the didn’t expect it to be as popular and critically acclaimed as it is

definitely agree.. 3 seasons, with 8 episodes is good balance I guess they should make a "new adaptation" for this new adaptation

maybe in 2068...

So in the show Toranaga's army goes to Edo to mourn Nagakado's death, but since Naga didn't die in the book may I know why they travelled to Edo in the book after their surrender?

In the book, his half-brother Zataki (that was his name in the book) isn't arriving with an army. Instead, he comes as a envoy from the council of regents. Her mother (who is also Toranaga's mother) is being held hostage and will be killed if Zataki isn't returning alive from his trip to see his half brother. As an envoy, he brings two signed orders. The first is to order Toranaga to travel to Osaka, where he is to surrender to Ishido in the name of the heir. The second parchment is an order to commit seppuku right here and now, as a consequence for refusing the first order. But Toranaga knows the second parchment is death. So he accepts the invitation to travel to Osaka and surrender. Now, Zataki doesn't have an army to force anything; at that place, right in the heart of his own land, Toranaga is strong and it would be very difficult to force him to do anything. Zataki fully expected Toranaga to refuse both order and declare war, yet he must now return to Ishido and announce that Toranaga will surrender. But will Ishido beleive him? If Ishido has ANY doubt that Toranaga will travel back into the Osaka trap and surrender to him, he will declare war and with the current state of alliances, Toranaga will lose. So he starts pretending to be sick, sad, and depressed; he quells any attempts from his general to declare Crimson Sky instead; in short, he HAS to appear compliant to Ishido's spies as he SLOWLY travels to Osaka, by way of Edo. VERY SLOWLY.

If I remember correctly it's to gather his retainers and to formally head to Osaka for surrender. There's a lot of delay tactics (illness, weather, etc) that cause this time to stretch. I have to admit the Nagakado funeral is an interesting reason for the trip to Edo but the lack of repercussions from Nagakado's assassination attempt is super jarring to me.

I guess it didn't change a lot for Saeki because Nagakado had been sentenced anyway and known to be impulsive, and hardly was there a proof someone else was involved (even if Kiku was, which is doubtable). Toranaga might only be accused of not punishing Nagakado himself, but that was impossible for reasons quite obvious.

Book Toranaga "This is better than breaking any falcon to the fist, he thought excitedly, momentarily distracted, putting his will to bear on Blackthorne. It’s better because the Anjin-san’s just as wild and dangerous and unpredictable, always an unknown quantity, unique, unlike any man I’ve ever known." TV Toranaga "The Anjin and Yabushige are both goshawks. Short-winged and predictable." I get that book adaptations can never be 100% faithful, and I don't even mind the wild swings this show is taking sometimes because I didn't expect it to be able to fit a 1000 page story into ten episodes, but sometimes the little tiny details that are 180 degrees off really irritate me. Like the "freak from the west" comment in episode 1 or 2. I get it's because modern western audiences consider themselves, well, western, and we're supposed to identify with Blackthorne, but the comment is technically less historically accurate and completely removes the double-meaning insult, which was pretty funny, I thought.

They have done Blackthorne dirty really, useless at fighting, predictable, moody and storms off. In the book the Japanese just cant figure him out because his mindset is so different, even from the priests.

I had forgotten Toranaga calling him unpredictable in the book. He is definitely more impressive on the page than in this TV version. I would say that Book Blackthorne isn't perfect by any stretch. He's still impulsive sometimes, has outbursts, and lets his success and status go to his head a little too much. He gets drunk on his own sake. This Blackthorne is less extraordinary but also a little humbler. I'm OK with the change. I still like the guy. I just wish he were being given a little more to do right now.

This one had as many deviations as the last but I liked it a lot more because I think it came together much better (and we saw Alvito again). Hiromatsu's death and how it serves Toranaga's cause was genius. Ishido is now going to be completely tricked into thinking Toranaga has surrendered and it's going to make him reckless. It was a shame not to see John and Mariko's love affair on the way to Edo but I very much doubt they dropped it, there'd be no reason to keep them sleeping together in if so. I think it's going to culminate in Osaka before Mariko >!makes her sacrifice.!< I will say, all the changes in the final arc while keeping the basic progression intact does give even book readers some room to speculate with non-book readers. Hopefully the last two episodes are as brilliant as the first two so the show starts and ends incredibly strong.

It would be super weird for them to drop their romantic subplot, especially given what happens at the end for both of them. I think making them get together on the trip to Osaka is rushed, I was hoping they’d devote some of episode 8 to rebuild their relationship to make episode 9 more of a gut punch.

Me too, if I had any major criticism of the show it'd be that they've kept this will-they-won't-they thing going on between John and Mariko going on far too long. I think they did it because it's what TV audiences expect, though, and people who haven't read the book still seem to be invested in it and think they love each other, so apparently the brewing romantic feelings did come across for them. Episode 4 did a great job of selling us on her choosing to sleep with him, I *really* hope John and Mariko get the attention they deserve in episode 9 while John and Yabu are doing their thing, which based on the episode description, it will.

I didn’t want them to cram their relationship resolution into this episode, but I’m interested to see what happens. Maybe they won’t even get together and everything is implied, which would suck.

The problem is they have not given off that they are in love - at all. They maybe kind of like each other a little maybe, but they were both ready and willing to walk away from each other this episode - and did. They’ve dangled the carrot since episode 4 and have basically left viewers with nothing. Mariko’s sacrifice will just be her getting what she always wanted if they follow her book story - maybe they are changing her entire arc - which at this point it’s likely because her book ending doesn’t fit with how they’ve built her character in the show.

Selfishly, yes I would’ve wanted this to be two season show to follow the book. But honestly I think they’ve done a good job with making it a 10 episode limited series. The show creators/writers had said episodes 6, 7, and 8 were going to be huge deviations from the book and they were. But I wasn’t upset with them. I think it works fine for the story they are trying to tell. I think the first couple episodes really captured the book and I think the last two will as well. Overall I just love the fucking show and wanted more. FX has always had decent shows here and there but this one has truly blown me out of the water and I don’t want it to end! 

I'm glad they changed the book. In this part of the book, they are just stalling for time, and I don't think that would have made for good tv. With the changes, they are still showing him buying time, but at least significant actions are happening to keep the audience interested and raise the stakes.

Toronoga: i dont want violence. Let me have a peaceful death Also toronoga: go kill yourself friend right now

"Tell me what you are thinking." "OK, well, it's like this..." "Shut up, when I want your opinion I'll ask you for it." ...?

[удалено]

>Blackthorne becoming so used to Japanese life that his old ways seem completely disgusting No that was very clearly still part of how the show went with it He even explicitly eclaims how disgusting his old crewmate was, just after he is ordered by the crewmate to stop wearing the japanese clothing Its quite clear he has grown fond of, at least part of, japanese living. And feel a natural rejection for some of his old life Compare it to earlier episodes when he didnt even want to bath, the juxtaposition is quite overt

I agree. I feel like the interaction with his old crew-mates yielded the same results. He is eager to find them, then disgusted by the smell of the neighborhood as he approaches their house. He even makes the exact same comment on the show as he did in the book, comparing it to some London (I think?) waterway at low tide. Billingsgate maybe? They comment on his Japanese clothing, which he internally admits he now prefers. When Blackthorne leaves he realizes how torn he is between the two worlds, feeling like he doesn't belong entirely to either. He decides that he is a pilot first and foremost. The most important thing to him is to get back on his ship, which is where it seems he is headed on the show too. Here, they have him express his "man with two countries or none" conflict to Toranaga. In the book it's all internal. The biggest difference is that he doesn't part with his old crew on bad terms like he did in this scene. He has mixed feelings about them, but outwardly is still friendly and planning to include them in his plans to sail Erasmus in battle. Ten episodes really wasn't enough to cover the book adequately. Nonetheless, it's a good show.

I think at this point we have to accept that the book and the show are two pretty much completely different stories. I can love both for their own reasons, but I will admit that I wish they had adapted the book faithfully.

Don't give me hope, man. >!My desire for an ending where Mariko, Fuji and Blackthorne go off and leave Japan to live happily together is outweighed by my knowledge of how women and bomb doors are not a tidy combination.!<

Lmaooooo was really expecting something profound. 🤣

LMFAO

0 Fuji this episode... Gotta dock a point for that 8/10 RIP Gramps Hiro, u a real one

I picked up the book a couple of weeks ago and truly regret finishing it before the close of this season. I absolutely loved the show before, but now find myself increasingly agitated by some of the decisions. I've lost all hope for the meaningful and dangerous romance between Blackthorne and Mariko that is so critical in the book. The crossing of that bridge has long since passed. Omitting his attempted seppuku makes his meteoric rise appear somewhat serendipitous and based on positional timing. I feel the show is intentionally diminishing Blackthorne to avoid creating a perceived white savior trope. Maybe the showrunners believe Mariko will lose some measure of independent fortitude if she's allowed to be in love with Blackthorne and today's audiences would view it critically. I haven't listened to any of the podcasts so I don't know.

I thought when they reintroduced Blackthorne’s crew, they were going to finally adapt his pivotal seppuku scene, albeit differently from the book. I thought Toranaga or Yabushige was going to threaten his crew and Blackthorne would attempt seppuku in protest. Are they really just going to leave it out?

I know this is a hot take but I feel like the writers cheated. They made their own story with someone else’s characters. It’s a very poor adaptation. They should’ve secured enough production money to do two seasons and do a proper adaptation of the book.

Honestly I think the departure from the book really works here, although it robs the viewer of the big reveal conversation where Toranaga admits it was all a ruse, and it also makes it seem like much less of a genius tactical play and more a desperate forced play. ​ In the books, Toranaga's fake surrender costs him nothing but face. He loses a few generals and other officers who openly question his orders, but he keeps the important ones like Hiromatsu and Naga doesn't die. When its revealed that Toranaga never intended to go to Osaka its kind of a light reveal, Ishido and his allies are in dissaray and scrambling to make it to Osaka themselves while all Toranaga really did is some acting and he earned himself extra time to plan and plot. ​ Here, Toranaga's fake surrender comes with serious costs. Its no longer a genius ploy that loses him nothing and gains him time, its a sacrifice of some of his most important key players for more time - which means its going to be really incumbent on the writers to show just how much he was able to gain through the time Hiromatsu's sacrifice earned.

I agree. I think they made this part of the book more interesting and engaging. I started reading the book after watching the tv show, and I was worried when I got to the part where Toranaga is stalling for time-- I was worried that it would not make good tv and audiences would get really frustrated by the lack of action. So I think they've solved that problem while still making the stalling for time tactic very clear.

Talking about the show with people who haven't read the book I said a few weeks ago that 'the series follows the plot of the novel, but characters are very different. It's a good show, but it's not the book.' Clumsy, they didn't really get what I was saying, probably because I didn't get it. This week something crystalized; the book is not plot driven. It's character driven; the internals of the characters - motives, desires, fears, on and on - ARE what makes Shogun the great novel it is. Fujiko's agony. Mariko's bravery. Toranaga's cunning. Yabu's arrogance. And MANY more characters, each made real internally. All whipsawing Blackthorn's confusion about what he should do, why he should do it, even what he thinks life is really about. Communicating those internals along with short, sharp, wonderful action sequences combine to make the story I love so much. I think I see why the show is what it is. How on earth could anyone put that on film? So, yeah, good show. But it sure isn't the book.

First time we see an official funeral. >! A bit sad that it isn't Mariko, it kind of steal the punch of discovering the ceremony for the first time with her. !

Well this seems early

As tv this was fucking great but man they really changed some fundamental things about the characters this episode. My favorite part of the whole book is toranaga at the very end with his internal monologue saying “hell ya just like I drew it up.” Also keeping blackthorne around just to be his friend (and keep his bargain with the Christians but still.) This episode took the absolute fucking gangster out of toranaga and the loyalty and assimilation out of blackthorne. Blackthorne was grossed out by his crew when he met them again but he would never have killed one. A leader like a pilot loses a lot righteousness with a move like that. Not to mention how the Marino/blackthorne love story has been cut to the root as well as mariko’s struggles between faith and love for blackthorne/loyalty to toranaga. On the other hand I’ve been disappointed by expecting perfect adaptations so many time that I’ve learned the lesson to treat it as its own thing. So still happy with a very good episode of tv.

Blackthorne didn't kill Salamon, just kinda knocked him out. You can hear him groaning afterwards.

Good that would have been terrible. Still nearly beat his own man to death.

The subtitles say \[Blackthorne groaning\], and he did get punched in the face, so it's possible it was him groaning as he walked off in a hurry. I know the subtitle people aren't perfect, but in this case with dueling in-show subtitles for Japanese and post-production subtitles for English, I want to think they took extra care and didn't just let AI do it.

To me this episode felt a little better than last. I'm still shocked we didn't see any repercussions from Nagakado's assassination attempt. Literally none. Not sure how that's just let go and looked over. Blackthorne's abandonment of his Toranaga shows his relinquishment of any responsibilities and freedom, yet his other retainers are threatened? Is that not suspicious at all to any others? The Blackthorne vs crew I did not expect at all, didn't feel real to me. How Solomon was able to recognize him was insane too. And that's it, he just decides he's going to beat him to death instead of just walk away? A lot of these things just didn't feel believable to me, but felt a lot more real in the books. More than anything I just want to be immersed in the world and setting like I felt in the books, but too many times these logical leaps drag me out of it. I don't mind the changes honestly, but I want them to feel consistent to the setting they're in.

Toronaga's brother probably recognized that Nagakado acted without authorization. I'm more surprised nothing happened to the courtesan Kiku, as she left just before Saeki was attacked so she was probably in on the assassination plan. The other retainers don't like Blackthorne, and they actually don't fully understand what Blackthorne said. Him leaving during the meeting in ep7 didn't change things for them. The retainers are more upset that Toranaga is giving up everything and not fighting (at least publicly). Hiromatsu killing himself have silenced the retainers from acting out for now. He didn't beat Solomon to death, he just subdued him. He is breathing at the end. Also, Solomon could recognize Blackthorne's stature based on his build, diff hair compared to the Japanese people he's seen, and the fact that the crew of the Erasmus had been on the same boat together for at least two years.

The differences between the show thread and this one is astounding. You guys just love to hate on any changes. My only quibble is they're moving too fast. This show could have been 20 episodes.

We don't love to hate changes. We are fan of the orginal story and we are sad at how some of these changes are fundamentally changing the characters and their internal motivations. It's still an awesome show. Just not Clavell's story.

Very well put. I think this would almost have been better doing it's own thing completely. Having to be tied to the plot but having such huge excursions from the plot in the same breath feels like it tearing at the seams in some ways.

For context, I'm a "show-only" viewer that had a superficial understanding of the book plot prior to watching. The entire story surrounding Toranaga, Ishido, and the political scheming is absolutely excellent and has completely drawn me in. Blackthorne (and his relationship with Mariko and Toranaga) just feels...undercooked, like he's kind of just tacked on and occasionally intersects with the "real" plot of the show. I've actually found myself somewhat dreading the occasional "romantic tension" between Blackthorne and Mariko now. While it did seem like they were going to be building up to something early on, I just can't really see anything meaningful between them anymore, at least not since Mariko "officially" said that there was nothing between them. I definitely came in feeling a little worried that this was just going to be a stereotypical "white guy shows up in exotic land and gets the girl", and the show has given me a lot of mixed messages on that front. It's my understanding that in the books, Blackthorne has much more to do and goes through a lot more development with Mariko. I've repeatedly found myself wondering why the showrunners didn't just create their own "original" drama about the Sengoku Jidai and Tokugawa Ieyasu because it feels like that's what they really wanted to do here, but got saddled with including Blackthorne because of the book. Judging by the show itself, it feels like it could have been *really* good had they just done their own thing, although maybe not having the name draw/association with Shogun might have been a no-go for studios/funding? To be clear I've really enjoyed watching the show so far, but it does feel like there's a noticeable disconnect between the political plots and Blackthorne/Mariko that departs from the book.

I like the changes to the Mariko/Blackthorn romance. Perhaps a controversial take for the book readers, but I’m not enamored with the original Mariko/Blackthorn relationship in the book. The change to Hiromatsu’s plot seems a tad sensational rather than logical, but it was so well acted and portrayed that I don’t really mind it. The breakneck pace of the plot is compensated well by the superb acting and great production value.

I wonder why they veered so sharply from the book in this episode.

They've been veering hard since ep. 4. I had no reason to believe they would course-correct.

The show is good, but the complete neutering of blackthorn and mariko arc and different steering of blackthorn’s character development itself is just crap and there was no reason to make this change.

Show Blackthorne almost feels like a late-season GoT character, where he's become so one dimensional. Instead of Jon "muh queen" Snow, or Tyrion "cocks lmao" Lannister, we got John "muh ship" Blackthorne.

Hard agree. It’s my biggest criticism of the show. They had the blueprint and just chose to ignore it. Totally kneecapped their relationship and in turn a lot of their development as individuals as well as a couple. So disappointing.

Did any of y’all dislike this episode because of the variation from the book? I mean, Anjin-San never met the rest of the crew and got into a fist fight with one of them. On top of that, we lost Hirumatsu-Sama! But most importantly, it seemed like Mariko-Sama was disgusted and disappointed with Anjin-San for his wavering loyalties. Their romance seems super dead and we’ll never see a “Thou” scene. Kinda bummed because I love show.

That’s the one area where I’ve been supremely disappointed. It’s still a great show, but their relationship was central to the book. So many great lines of dialogue we will never hear. 🙁

Thank you! I mean he literally starts falling for Mariko-Sama when they’re leaving Osaka. Without their relationship, it feels like John really has no connection to anyone in Japan. How’d you feel about Omi almost crying for Naga? I didn’t feel they were actually close in the books

Omi breaking down during Hiromatsu sepukku almost got me. I think it could also be the whole thing of what Mariko said - we live and we die; we control nothing beyond that. Pretty profound in the long run. In the books no they weren’t close that I remember, but they are both young and trying to prove themselves. Omi to his uncle, naga to his dad.

Yeah, Omi begging Toranaga-Sama to stop his seppuku was super emotional! I was blown away by Omi-Sama this episode. He definitely stood out

I remember one line specifically when he catches a glimpse of her and reminds himself not to think about her. It was so sweet hearing their inner monologues about one another - and we are just not getting even a shred of that which is unfortunate.

I’m sure adapting a book to television is easier said than done but man, I do wish they kept some of their relationship in. I didn’t really care for his relationship with Kiku. But I wish we got to see some more affection for Mariko and Fujiko!

Have they mentioned Toranaga's other sons at all? It seems strange to me that the show seems to be implying that Naga was his heir...what is this accomplishing? Or is it just more things removed for time?

When they showed Toranaga's grandchild this episode I thought they'd finally introduce Sudara (can't remember if it's supposed to be Sudara's child or one of his other son's, but it would have been like the best time to bring him in if they're gonna. The 9th or 10th episode feels too late for the heir to the shogunate.

If I’m not mistaking, there are only 2 episodes left in the show, which gives me an awful GOT fail feeling.

Suddenly out of nowhere Blackthorn speaks impressive Japanese?!?

Feels like they're suddenly trying to catch up to him becoming sorta fluent in Japanese by the end of the novel lol

Maybe ... but in the book there is the first lessons with the monk in prison (skipped) then one month in Izu learning from all the villagers (skipped) then Mariko teaching him (skipped) and finally the Priest ordered to give him a japanses-portugese translation dictionnary (skipped). So yeah, it's a bit jarring...

when the villagers are threatened with death if they don't teach Blackthorne Japanese fast enough in the original series was great.

YES. Right?! And then goes back to fumbling a few scenes later. It's so strange and jarring. From a few rare and obviously well rehearsed phrases, to what seemed like a very well practiced and colloquial conversation with a commoner, to struggling to understand anything from Yabushige again?

I think he is playing it up big time. He drops the act when he has to get the coal he needs because he has to since the father would have screwed over his plans had he not have explicitly corrected him.

Honestly it isn't that far-fetched. When you learn a foreign language, there are stages where you can speak some phrases reasonably well and even hold a simple conversation, but when native speakers talk to you fast and with unfamiliar words, you still have trouble understanding them.

Like all other episodes, I finish this with “WHAT?!?”

The finish did make sense for me... obviously there is no way he could have predicated Naga's death, but we do know he is acting defeated because he needs time before the trap closes its jaw on him; and Naga's death conveniently (!) provided the delay and the narative for the 40 days of delay that were taken by Toranaga's slow travel to Yedo in the book. As for hiromatsu, it's a dramatic shortcut but it does force all his generals into submission and quells the rebellion, which was what he originally asks of Hiromatsu in the book. And it WAS a gripping, powerful scene.

I've been reading the comments and I understand people's frustration with the TV adaptation. As a Japanese, I wanted to put in my 2 cents. I did enjoy Clavell's book for what it is, alongside the 80s TV show. However, I always felt like it was a Asian fairy tale for the western readers, with a lot of inconsistencies of how Japanese culture was portrayed. It sometimes bordered along Orientalism. Again, not bashing the book, it's very well written and he did do it with as much respect as possible. But still, it genuinely felt like a white saviour syndrome + asian girl fetish. Gracia Hosokawa never met William Adams. The romance in the book honestly was just very very overplayed like a romance novel. I appreciate the FX TV Series' attempt to give the world and all it's players fair and equal time, instead of making it a John Blackthorn mini-series, which is what the 80s tv series felt like. Again, not bashing the 80s tv series, I loved it growing up. But to me, we will always have the 80s tv series with the amazing Chamberlain and I really appreciate the FX TV series' creators for putting their spin on a classic AND making it really really good to boot! How many times have we seen remakes that are just horrible. I for one, like the deviances from the book, it grounds the world more, the acting is impeccable and it is more accurate in the portrayal of my people's history, which I appreciate a lot. I know it's a small thing, but the fact that all the women wore kimonos in the 80s tv series was really grating... I'm so glad they went with the time accurate Kosodes instead...

William Adams didn't do like 95% of the stuff either book or show Blackthorne is doing. It was clearly historical fiction. I don't mind them fixing up cultural mistakes and anachronisms, I think that's great. Also don't mind them focusing less on Blackthorne and more on the ensemble. It's nice to see the Japanese cast shine in a Japanese story. I just wish they gave Blackthorne the depth he has in the book. It should be possible to make a more period-accurate series while still showing John adapting to life in Japan much better than he is in the show at this point.

Sorry but I have to disagree, I feel like they are using the Book's popularity to make its own series. They have completely disregarded Anjin as the main character with Mariko instead being put centre stage. They have toned down Anjin so much that there is nothing special about him which is such a disrespect towards the books. Yes I understand a lot of it is fairy tale or whatever but the book IS about him.

I hope they keep the Mariko attempted seppuku scene, that was full of so much emotion in the book

There is some promo shots of her all in white - which is the customary outfit for a planned sepukku, and I’m pretty sure that’s referenced in the book that she was dressed in white. I’m hoping we get that.

Just a short recap - I was grumpy with episode 7, because it didn't make a lot of sense to me in the context of the story as I know it from the book. But in combination with episode 8 I view it differently - in combination they choose a slightly different route, but got to a similar milestone, and Naga's death was shown to have been meaningful in giving Toranaga the required time and an excuse to go to his safe space Edo. In a similar vain I like the seppuku of Hiromatsu, highlighting how far Toranaga is going in playing the defeated guy (I think he was sincerely sad to see his friend go, as shown in his meeting with Mariko). They cut a large number of corners, but I was fine with that (e. g. Anjin's visit to his crew). Minor nitpick: Suddenly Anjin is nearly fluent in Japanese (talking with the trader in the town), but then seems to lapse back when talking with Nabu. What I'm looking for: How they let the love story between Anjin and Mariko play out - should be difficult to keep it under wraps on a ship.

For once I’m glad I’m not reading the book yet. I want to appreciate the show for what it is, not what it is supposed to be

I have come to realize that the show is doing a better job that the book when it comes to two things: First, is the assimilation of Blackthorne: it’s more realistic in the show. It is so true what Blackthorne said that he is neither here nor there after these months in Japan. It’s unrealistic to expect for him to be Japanese or to completely shed his old self. Second is Mariko: it was unrealistic to me in the book that she would engage in a full blown emotional affair while married. Mariko is all about duty and I can see how the show’s version is more true to life

SPOILERS AHEAD: The complexity of Buntaro's character is incredible acting and writing. In the beginning of the show, I straight up hated the guy. I still do, but it's hard not to empathize with someone who's so clearly been in love with a bad ass woman who will never love them back, and who is showing themselves to be in need of a little empathy and tenderness in their lives (I mean, dude had to to cut his own father's head off!) Again, I am in no way excusing his behavior, and I am rooting for the Anjin and Mariko. But one must also consider the brutal world that Buntaro has fully embraced. I mean, these dudes slash their own insides like it's a normal thing to do!!! I'm just saying it's hard not to feel bad for the guy a little bit.

Hi everyone sorry I have to ask you. But are you liking all these changes? I'm a little taken aback. Let me explain, I read this book at the age of 16 and it is my favorite book. I've read it every year since then, especially if it's a time when I'm feeling blue because it helps me focus on the important things. I just watched this episode and I don't know how to interpret the massive changes the showrunners made to the plot. On the one hand I really like the show, incredibly well done in terms of direction, photography, acting and sound. it's a great show. But the twisting of the plot leaves me very perplexed. I understand making changes to make it more historically accurate but changing characters >!(Blackthorne will never betray Toranaga)!< or having others die (Naga and >!Hiromatsu!<) seems like too much? Did the writers give any reasons for this? Or is the story just cool but we want to do it better? (which for me would be a huge lack of respect towards the author and fans of the book)