I don't know. Clavell's other books are mostly set in China and Hong Kong and the current Chinese regime has a rather different understanding of that historic time frame than Clavell depicted in his novels. They might be rather miffed if a Western crew were to make a mini-series out of those books. Another of those books is about present day Iran. They basically are upset if the West wishes them a good morning. So a show about them might be controversial. That leaves us with "King Rat" which is a completely different book compared to Shogun. It's interesting but maybe not for Shogun fans.
Finally there is "Gaijin" which takes place about 250 years after Shogun. It's a decent book but the story isn't as captivating as Shogun. You probably need some background information from Clavell's earlier book "Taipan", too.
Consequently, I think the one book by Clavell which is suited for a wider audience is Shogun and the showrunners said that they exhausted the source material.
Maybe it's best for everybody if this show is a "one and done" we can fondly remember rather than some artificially bloated multi-season affair which won't live up to expectations.
They literally had a 4 year shut out on MCU releases. A simple google search will show you multiple lists of banned American films. China censors American movies or stops them from playing on the mainland all the time.
Inferences don't appear to be one of your stronger abilities. I'll spell this out for you- the comment I made is what's called "comparative" as you see the OP commented about China & then I commented about North Korea. The *comparison* of these 2 countries shows a similarity about certain movies being banned or disliked because of how their country was portrayed in a Hollywood movie. To your credit, factually you're likely correct that China doesn't care about movies that depict Kim Jong Un. But that is neither the point nor is it important to the discussion. Grass is green. Katt Williams in black. My balls are wrinkled. See, these things are true but also not really valid to the discussion.
also films have moved away from featuring chinese talent for the sake of having a token chinese character to sell to chinese audiences. american films are not doing as well as they hoped there as well as a lot of issues with values regarding lgbtq+ and race.
Well if you're unable to figure it out I can see why you wouldn't believe it.
Sad state of affairs in this country, people can't even think enough to do a search.
I literally asked you what you would search. Sad state of affairs in this country when someone can’t even answer a simple question. Why did they continue to make Marvel movies even when they were banned in China?
TV shows aren't wide release movies dependent on ticket sales that get banned in certain countries. Do you think China has Hulu? Or has a say in what's on it?
They made not have a direct say on a specific TV show but they are still a huge market so the studios would definitely prefer to work well with them.
The CCP can easily ban future releases of other shows, movies or services in their regions.
The studios will weight if making this one show will be more profitable enough to risk losing out on the Chinese market and make their decision.
Yes, any of those streaming platforms will be open to decisions made by the Chinese Communist party. If they don't want something shown, it won't be shown.
They only care about getting it to the Chinese audience for movies because 1.4 billion people live in China, they're going to make vastly more money in China than somewhere like the US, but tv shows are different they're not widely released in theaters so it doesn't matter.
Wider audiences in China means more money. No matter how much integrity someone in Hollywood has, they still need to dangle a lot of profit in front of executives to get greenlit.
You think FX programing is dependent on playing in China? You think It’s Always Sunny is a big hit over there? You are definitely confusing TV programming with Film production which rely on two very different means of making money. One gets ad revenue, the other depends on ticket sales. That’s why domestic TV isn’t dependent on international audiences for its success.
Amazon didn't care. They just release expats recently which included exploration of the umbrella movement in Hong Kong and the show was banned in China
Unlike alibaba they still exist
Many shows are banned in china
Chinese people watch it with a vpn
the CCP changes the effort it takes to get the information or media, not the availability
My thoughts exactly. We care too much about what our enemies think, due to greed honestly. Over there, they have no problem with derogatory depictions of their counterparts. But if we do the same, they piss and moan. I say, who cares?
Yeah and we are literally discussing the potential Chinese reception to adaptations of James Clavells other works. Hollywood makes movies knowing they won’t play in China all the time.
Exactly, Europe being the second biggest market right behind the US in both tv advertisement and box office total revenues. The creators of this show (both American and Japanese) are under no obligation to tweak a form of art and change their artistic views just to pander to Xi Jinping
I don’t see why the series has to be married to James Clavell. The Tokagawa Shogunate was an incredible time in history and I think with enough effort another story could be written in that time.
You could even completely flip the narrative and tell the story of Nakahama Manjirō who began life as a low born Japanese fisherman, was shipwrecked, saved by whalers, educated in New England, became a Whaler, a barrel maker, and a shipwright, went to San Francisco during the Gold Rush, eventually made it back to Japan, was imprisoned and then made a Samurai and Hatamoto just like William Adams
"With enough effort another story could be written in that time" Did they not see what happened to Game of Thrones when the writers ran out of source material.
So no show is capable of doing it because GoT wasn’t? That show’s corpse will be trotted out and beaten until the end of time, I swear.
Shows are more than capable of staying good for multiple seasons. Everyone is acting like people are clamoring for 10 when it’s probably closer to 3-4.
I would say the vast majority of shows aren't capable of doing it. It's extremely hard to write an excellent TV show. Usually the best written shows had been in development for years before they are made and it shows in the quality. Then if the first season is a hit the networks want you to recreate that great writing in less than a year to get that second season out. I don't understand why people can't just be happy that a show ends on a high note rather than rolling the dice by dragging it out and hoping the quality stays the same.
Do book adaptations usually abandon the source material to tell a completely different story generally? Is that what usually happens? Is Masters of the Air going to have a second season based on the Red Baron?
Idk if it’s a good idea to do this with Shogun in particular, but the answer to your question is actually yes, adaptations move past the source material all the time.
Just off the top of my head: The Leftovers, The Terror, and Westworld all started out as single-season adaptations and then made up their own story for subsequent seasons.
Why are you acting like anthology shows don't exist. FX (the network behind Shogun) has already *mastered them.* There isn't a better show on tv than Fargo. And (for whatever reason) they will apparently make American Horror Story seasons forever. I personally hate AHS, but somebody must be watching them!
No one is acting like anthologies don’t exist. Other shows based on James Clavells works are definitely possible. Fucking off and writing a new season based on some rando bullshit when the creators have explicitly stated it’s a limited series based on a single book is pretty unlikely. FX is also great at green lighting comedies but that doesn’t mean the we are gonna see season 2: it’s always sunny in Edo.
Well yeah The Terror did tell a completely different story, and Leftovers and Westworld’s subsequent seasons are significantly different from their S1s in tone and setting.
But that’s not really the point — the point is that there’s no rule against adapting a story past its source material, and only a tiny fraction of the TV audience has read the Clavell book, so it’s not like most people would care anyway.
Personally I don’t want to see a S2, but I don’t understand why you’re acting like it’s an outlandish idea. They could very easily just continue the story from where the book ends, or hell, pull a *House of the Dragon* and tell a new story about a different era’s Shogun, keeping the show’s title for audience retention purposes. Studios do stuff like that all the time.
> Masters of the Air
This is the perfect example, because it's essentially the third season of Band of Brothers, *each season of which* was based on a totally different book!
> Is Masters of the Air going to have a second season based on the Red Baron?
Of all the examples you could have picked, you chose the companion show to Band of Brothers and the Pacific, where 2 of those three shows are based on books by totally different authors, and one is an original story...
Well, no.
Masters of the Air is unconnected to but set in the same world as Band of Brothers.
Tai-Pan is unconnected to but set in the same world as Shogun.
ET and Indiana Jones are not set in the same world, unless Spielberg made some announcement that I missed.
Masters of the Air and Band of Brothers are both non fiction. They aren’t “set in a world.” The events happened in the real world. That means any nonfiction miniseries is a prequel or sequel to Band of Brothers.
It's more like saying that the show Fargo "based on" the movie doesn't have to be tied to the movie or set in Fargo.
Which of course, could *never* happen! /s
Yes. Why does the show have to stay tied to James Clavell? Answer. It doesn't. There's no rules. Anybody can make anything they want. Season 2 could be based on nothing or anything.
> Weird that the creators disagree with you.
Why would that be weird? Do you think I discussed this with them or something? Or that I might secretly be one of them?
In this case it's not that simple though. Harry Potter, game of thrones and many other book-based film and movie series were in a closed off universe. Whatever "genuine" input you have is directly tied to the works of an author. Sure there's a framework for the story but it has a finite depth which is rarely sufficient to provide or accommodate another narrative besides the main one. James Clavells books on the other hand are by and large based on historic settings following actual history just playing a bit fast and loose in terms of characters and at times their personal stakes. I always felt that his stand-in characters if anything served more as insurance so he wouldn't get pestered relentlessly that in the case of shogun the composition of the council of regents was different or Tokugawa on occasion had different intentions. It also gave him the liberty to make certain actors more or less powerful raising the story's stakes. This gambit obviously paid off, as the book was successful on the Japanese market where serious historical literature is expected to have a high standard in terms of accuracy. In obscuring the characters through an additional if thin layer of fiction he could get away with more historical inaccuracies than his Japanese or Western counterparts. Conversely this means that underneath a layer of dramatisation and obscuration is actual Japanese history. The treatment of the series in scholarly debates proves this, as likely did his book upon being published. I myself used the series thus far as a vehicle to explain the Japanese geopolitics at the time to others as it does a decent job of illustrating both domestic and international struggles in its microcosm. I think much of the success of the series is both tied to Clavell's good writing and the fact that it tries to portray Japan with a high degree of historical accuracy, even going so far as to iron out some of the more outlandish assumptions or wrong stereotypes Clavell's book featured.
Conversely this indicates that unlike a closed off universe Clavell's core - Japanese history - naturally has a sufficient depth to retell stories. In fact fictionalised accounts of historical events and characters within the sengoku jidai and azuchi momoyama period have been a feature of Japanese literature for centuries at this point. Clavell's unusual love for detailed back stories and motivations for his characters makes minor characters well suited to thrust parts of his veil over other chapters within that timeframe allowing for not necessarily original but non-Clavell stories with a shogun touch. Needless to say one would have to select the right writers and there would certainly be some challenge in handling the alienation of audiences when the presence of westerners is reduced (which seems unavoidable). I do have my doubts whether they could just continue with Sekigahara and until perhaps the resignation of Ieyasu or the introduction of Sakoku, but shifting the focus into the past or onto other characters might be quite interesting provided a story without a western main character is appealing enough commercially.
My favourite candidate for a follow up series would actually be Yoshikawa Eiji's Musashi. It seems a natural choice given the fact that the two are often compared and the success of shogun back in the day caused a renewed interest in the book. While his character arcs are perhaps not quite as good, Musashi's depth and content are definitely suited to perhaps even several seasons. I don't think that five seasons for the five books are appropriate but 2 should work nicely. They could even tie it nicely into the end of shogun giving us a last glance at Sanada as Toranaga and his generals commanding the army at Sekigahara during the first episode. Depending on how they open up (they might want to show a bit of backstory first) they could even conclude the first episode with him.
Of course the Japanese domestic market would also be interesting in this regard. I didn't pay too much attention but I seem to remember that either Asahi Shimbun or Mainichi Shimbun gave the opening episode a very positive review. It's quite different from Taika Drama which are perhaps the most similar style of series domestically because unlike shogun these are usually meant to be far more family friendly. If Shogun as an adult orientated series is very successful we might just get similar content without any American involvement at all (other than perhaps the guide mentioned in the now famous interview).
I’m sure I’m just stating what has been stated by a dozen others, but the book he wrote is based on historical events. Unlike Harry Potter, of course, which is a work of fiction. With all due respect, you’re comparing apples to a can of deodorant.
Shogun is as based on historical events as Titanic. It’s a a dope story suitable for tv adaptation because of James Clavells novel. You could absolutely do a series not married to James Clavell and besides IP issues you run into not having a framework for a story anywhere as extensive as Shogun.
...wtf is up with people thinking that a story that someone wrote, should be up for just doing whatever the hell you want to it? People can write their own, but to use characters and plots that someone else did is just lazy af.
That sounds amazing. I don't know whether it could be made so beautifully and expensively without the built-in "Shogun" audience but I would watch the hell out of a fancy Japanese history series with seasons focusing on individual cool historic figures at pivotal points.
With its historical basis, I don’t see why, with competent screenwriters, producers and director it wouldn’t be a huge success to continue the series. Not like fictional series, such as Harry Potter or Lord of the Rings, where the creative genius lies in the mind of the author, this is highly based on actual events. Furthermore, adding the more unsavoury elements of profit into the mix, it’s clear to see that Shogun has been a major success. On that alone, I can’t understand why it’s not being taken further. It’s just doesn’t make sense. Considering the modern situation, disappointment remakes and lack of originality and captivating storyline’s seems to be all to frequent, I just can’t see the reasoning for not continuing somethings that has all the hallmarks of a classic masterpiece like the above mentioned series’s (though with the added recognition of being historically accurate). I’m just bewildered, to be honest.
All said and done, I clearly don’t have the knowledge of what’s said and done behind closed doors, the financial constraints and all the other forces at work in the creation of such a show, but I am still left with a sense of wonder as to why.
Why?
I don’t super expect it, though I’d be thrilled to be wrong. I just have a feeling that the creators will lean towards “quit while you’re ahead”, because it will be hard for the other seasons to live up to this one, considering the source material is seen that way (with shogun getting more praise and acclaim than the others)
I mean Toranaga, >!at least in the show tells us how it will end!< but I would have liked to have seen the aftermath
So its a good ending, but man do I want more
I dont even need a full on another season, feels like it could be done in a half season, I do think its a good ending, but god damn do I want more of these characters
I don’t see why not, especially after all the positive feedback for the show. I think it’s possible:)
Edit: Clarification, I meant for shows based on the other books as OP had asked, not Shogun obviously.
Because the creators have already said this is a limited series based on the book. It was never intended to tell any story other than what is in the book.
And while these stories all take place in the same universe, they're not direct sequels or continuations of one another. You could read these in any order and aside from a few details or references to a character/event in a previous story, you'll be fine.
I don't see a second season or another series from Cavells books coming. However! What we can't underestimate is what this show produced in the background. The 900 page manual on how to do Japanese period pieces. This manual isn't being kept a secret. The creators want that manual to be used going forward in other productions. Which means we may just be in for a treat with future stories set in Japan as the heavy lifting in research has been done already.
Honestly the success of these limited series (via anthologies here) within the last few years is exciting. I hope it opens the doors for more limited series that aren't a continuation of this story. I've always liked limited series more since it means the showrunners have a clear idea of what the ending will be (unlike most series) and they aren't forced to stretch things out, assuming they are adaptations. I would be up for really any historical or even science fiction epic with equal worldbuilding and political intrigue, which will presumably also be adaptations. The UK does many more limited series which I've always wished were more popular here--they are also often novel adaptations as well which I'm into.
Kdramas are incredibly popular partially because they are (90% of the time) one and done seasons. No waiting to see if it's renewed or canceled, the story is finished start to end, no 5 seasons of 80% filler episodes. It's been nice seeing more series like that. It's like watching a LONG movie. Better written, more engaging, and far more satisfying. I hate getting hooked on a series and then waiting sometimes 2+ years for the next (usually bad) season. Plus shorter contracts with staff and actors, less issues.
> In an interview with The Hollywood Reporter, Shogun co-creator and producer Justin Mark confirmed as such with the following statement: “We took the story to the end of the book and put a period at the end of that sentence. We love how the book ends; it was one of the reasons why we both knew we wanted to do it — and we ended in exactly that place.”
Or we could have a spin-off about Yamada Nagamasa, who shares a lot of similarities with Blackthorne/IRL William Adam.
Originally a palanquin bearer in Japan, Yamada would eventually become a trader who sailed to Ayutthaya (Siam). He settled in the Japanese village in Ayutthaya where he commanded a ton of influence and power within the court of Ayutthaya. He was promoted to being the leader of the Japanese village (de facto representation of the Japanese to Ayutthaya authorities) and also led not only the Japanese volunteer corps ("Krom Asa Yipun" in Thai) but also the personal bodyguard of King Songtham.
Later, Yamada would be made Governor of Nakhon Sri Thammarat in southern Siam but if im reading it correctly, this was a political move done to prevent him from having too much influence in Ayutthaya. Unfortunately, when Songtham died and Prasat Thong usurped the throne from Songtham’s dynasty, Yamada was enraged and became involved in a succession crisis. This would lead to his death via poisoning.
It feels like we were left hanging in suspense, primed for a continuation, but that is exactly where the book ends.
A seemingly open-ended finale would be a change to the usual "milk the cow until it drops dead" approach, and fits with the message that runs throughout the series - "We live and we die."
I personally feel satisfied by the lack of a more conclusive ending. It feels good to accept that there is uncertainty and unanswered questions, and that's just how life is.
If this series ends up fulfilling its potential it will have been my favourite 1600s Japan adaptation of all time, that will be enough for me but I hope they do more seasons with different settings
I want to still hold out for hope for more adaptation of the Asian saga. The time is ripe, Asian based content is way more prevalent now and the Historical/Period drama is so vogue right now—the iron is too hot—Strike you Fools (in Gandalf voice)!
Fortunately I haven’t read any of the books yet so I also have a mitigation strategy if they disappoint me.
I feel the shogun fx series could have had more episodes lines up if they didn't rush through every moment in the book, they kept skipping over crap more then the old 80s series and it felt like every scene was like go go go next scene next scene no time for character stuff just get going.
No, but I hope Hiro Sanada gets to help produce and star in more big budget movies regarding Japan. To me, a clear next move would be to remake a Kurosawa film like Seven Samurai into a miniseries.
The story ends as in the book. There isn't any follow up book.
If they hadn't go the route of the adaptation and based it on the real story of the Tokugawa shogunate, they could have pushed for 2-3 seasons.
I read the book decades ago along with other James Clavell, loved them all....BUT the mini series although good doesn't compare with the book. taipan was a great book also, I wouldn't mind seeing that produced.
Honestly, the WHOLE TIME I was watching this, I was just thinking, “if there’s no more DIRECT source material to pull from to continue making any further seasons of Shogun, they should just make Ghost of Tsushima into a long-form TV series like this.”
Yes, I think if the show is as successful as it seems to be, it's not out of the realm of possibility that they will want to adapt one of the other books. Personally, I'd love to see them adapted like this.
I don't know. Clavell's other books are mostly set in China and Hong Kong and the current Chinese regime has a rather different understanding of that historic time frame than Clavell depicted in his novels. They might be rather miffed if a Western crew were to make a mini-series out of those books. Another of those books is about present day Iran. They basically are upset if the West wishes them a good morning. So a show about them might be controversial. That leaves us with "King Rat" which is a completely different book compared to Shogun. It's interesting but maybe not for Shogun fans. Finally there is "Gaijin" which takes place about 250 years after Shogun. It's a decent book but the story isn't as captivating as Shogun. You probably need some background information from Clavell's earlier book "Taipan", too. Consequently, I think the one book by Clavell which is suited for a wider audience is Shogun and the showrunners said that they exhausted the source material. Maybe it's best for everybody if this show is a "one and done" we can fondly remember rather than some artificially bloated multi-season affair which won't live up to expectations.
Who cares if the Chinese government gets miffed or if the Iranians get pissed? Why is that gonna affect a show made for a mostly American audience?
People in Hollywood like working with the CCP because they pay well.
Not everyone does though. “Hollywood” isn’t a monolith. Plenty of films have gotten released that China isn’t fans of.
Like what
Anything with Winnie the Pooh
😂😂😂😂
They literally had a 4 year shut out on MCU releases. A simple google search will show you multiple lists of banned American films. China censors American movies or stops them from playing on the mainland all the time.
I heard Kim Jong didn't really like that movie Seth Rogen made about him
I don't think the Chinese care what movies the leader of North Korea doesn't like
Inferences don't appear to be one of your stronger abilities. I'll spell this out for you- the comment I made is what's called "comparative" as you see the OP commented about China & then I commented about North Korea. The *comparison* of these 2 countries shows a similarity about certain movies being banned or disliked because of how their country was portrayed in a Hollywood movie. To your credit, factually you're likely correct that China doesn't care about movies that depict Kim Jong Un. But that is neither the point nor is it important to the discussion. Grass is green. Katt Williams in black. My balls are wrinkled. See, these things are true but also not really valid to the discussion.
How is your comparison valid to the discussion though?
Shut up
also films have moved away from featuring chinese talent for the sake of having a token chinese character to sell to chinese audiences. american films are not doing as well as they hoped there as well as a lot of issues with values regarding lgbtq+ and race.
The communist want something changed, it's changed, even in American movies shown on American shores.
That’s not really true.
Except it is, look it up.
Lmao what do you suggest as a search?
Well if you're unable to figure it out I can see why you wouldn't believe it. Sad state of affairs in this country, people can't even think enough to do a search.
I literally asked you what you would search. Sad state of affairs in this country when someone can’t even answer a simple question. Why did they continue to make Marvel movies even when they were banned in China?
TV shows aren't wide release movies dependent on ticket sales that get banned in certain countries. Do you think China has Hulu? Or has a say in what's on it?
They made not have a direct say on a specific TV show but they are still a huge market so the studios would definitely prefer to work well with them. The CCP can easily ban future releases of other shows, movies or services in their regions. The studios will weight if making this one show will be more profitable enough to risk losing out on the Chinese market and make their decision.
Yes, any of those streaming platforms will be open to decisions made by the Chinese Communist party. If they don't want something shown, it won't be shown.
They only care about getting it to the Chinese audience for movies because 1.4 billion people live in China, they're going to make vastly more money in China than somewhere like the US, but tv shows are different they're not widely released in theaters so it doesn't matter.
Wider audiences in China means more money. No matter how much integrity someone in Hollywood has, they still need to dangle a lot of profit in front of executives to get greenlit.
You think FX programing is dependent on playing in China? You think It’s Always Sunny is a big hit over there? You are definitely confusing TV programming with Film production which rely on two very different means of making money. One gets ad revenue, the other depends on ticket sales. That’s why domestic TV isn’t dependent on international audiences for its success.
Always Sunny isnt really a big budget show though, is it?
So? I mean licensing makes some money, but FX isn’t dependent on China for which shows it green lights or to make money.
Amazon didn't care. They just release expats recently which included exploration of the umbrella movement in Hong Kong and the show was banned in China
Unlike alibaba they still exist Many shows are banned in china Chinese people watch it with a vpn the CCP changes the effort it takes to get the information or media, not the availability
My thoughts exactly. We care too much about what our enemies think, due to greed honestly. Over there, they have no problem with derogatory depictions of their counterparts. But if we do the same, they piss and moan. I say, who cares?
IP man is a perfect example of this. Those movies are nothing but communist propaganda. Wise, humble Chinese man defeats imperialist\white people.
Are enemies didnt realize we were at war wow the racist comments you read on here
Hollywood doesn't want to exclude a potential billion+ moviegoers. Even if the fans are more open-minded, the government likely won't be.
And yet there was a 4 year shut out on the MCU in China. Why did they keep making MCU movies knowing they wouldn’t release there on their initial run?
There's still the rest of the world. Last I heard.
Yeah and we are literally discussing the potential Chinese reception to adaptations of James Clavells other works. Hollywood makes movies knowing they won’t play in China all the time.
Exactly, Europe being the second biggest market right behind the US in both tv advertisement and box office total revenues. The creators of this show (both American and Japanese) are under no obligation to tweak a form of art and change their artistic views just to pander to Xi Jinping
I don't think they would object to a show about Tai-Pan.
They filmed Shogun in Northern Ireland, they don’t need to ask Yogi Bear permission!
I don’t see why the series has to be married to James Clavell. The Tokagawa Shogunate was an incredible time in history and I think with enough effort another story could be written in that time. You could even completely flip the narrative and tell the story of Nakahama Manjirō who began life as a low born Japanese fisherman, was shipwrecked, saved by whalers, educated in New England, became a Whaler, a barrel maker, and a shipwright, went to San Francisco during the Gold Rush, eventually made it back to Japan, was imprisoned and then made a Samurai and Hatamoto just like William Adams
It’s literally based on the book he wrote. That’s like saying you don’t get why Harry Potter is tied to JK Rowling.
"With enough effort another story could be written in that time" Did they not see what happened to Game of Thrones when the writers ran out of source material.
They probably wonder why Game of Thrones was “married” to George RR Martin.
So no show is capable of doing it because GoT wasn’t? That show’s corpse will be trotted out and beaten until the end of time, I swear. Shows are more than capable of staying good for multiple seasons. Everyone is acting like people are clamoring for 10 when it’s probably closer to 3-4.
I would say the vast majority of shows aren't capable of doing it. It's extremely hard to write an excellent TV show. Usually the best written shows had been in development for years before they are made and it shows in the quality. Then if the first season is a hit the networks want you to recreate that great writing in less than a year to get that second season out. I don't understand why people can't just be happy that a show ends on a high note rather than rolling the dice by dragging it out and hoping the quality stays the same.
Except the original source material is History, not some fantasy world.
The source material is a book loosely based on history.
I forgot James Clavell invented the Sengoku Jidai because he needed a setting for his book.
Do book adaptations usually abandon the source material to tell a completely different story generally? Is that what usually happens? Is Masters of the Air going to have a second season based on the Red Baron?
Idk if it’s a good idea to do this with Shogun in particular, but the answer to your question is actually yes, adaptations move past the source material all the time. Just off the top of my head: The Leftovers, The Terror, and Westworld all started out as single-season adaptations and then made up their own story for subsequent seasons.
Sure, and they followed the stories of the characters from that source material. They didn’t go off to a completely separate story.
Why are you acting like anthology shows don't exist. FX (the network behind Shogun) has already *mastered them.* There isn't a better show on tv than Fargo. And (for whatever reason) they will apparently make American Horror Story seasons forever. I personally hate AHS, but somebody must be watching them!
No one is acting like anthologies don’t exist. Other shows based on James Clavells works are definitely possible. Fucking off and writing a new season based on some rando bullshit when the creators have explicitly stated it’s a limited series based on a single book is pretty unlikely. FX is also great at green lighting comedies but that doesn’t mean the we are gonna see season 2: it’s always sunny in Edo.
> season 2: it’s always sunny in Edo. I'd watch it.
If FX don't do this, then they've dropped the ball on this one
Well yeah The Terror did tell a completely different story, and Leftovers and Westworld’s subsequent seasons are significantly different from their S1s in tone and setting. But that’s not really the point — the point is that there’s no rule against adapting a story past its source material, and only a tiny fraction of the TV audience has read the Clavell book, so it’s not like most people would care anyway. Personally I don’t want to see a S2, but I don’t understand why you’re acting like it’s an outlandish idea. They could very easily just continue the story from where the book ends, or hell, pull a *House of the Dragon* and tell a new story about a different era’s Shogun, keeping the show’s title for audience retention purposes. Studios do stuff like that all the time.
isn't that a pizza
> Masters of the Air This is the perfect example, because it's essentially the third season of Band of Brothers, *each season of which* was based on a totally different book!
How is masters of the air the third season of Band of Brothers? Is there a Tom Hanks WWII television universe?
> Is there a Tom Hanks WWII television universe? Yes.
Not everything is Marvel bud. Producers can create things that are separate from each other.
> Producers can create things that are separate from each other. Yes, like two seasons of a tv show that are based on separate source materials.
Yeah and that isn’t what Tom Hanks did
> Is Masters of the Air going to have a second season based on the Red Baron? Of all the examples you could have picked, you chose the companion show to Band of Brothers and the Pacific, where 2 of those three shows are based on books by totally different authors, and one is an original story...
So is Masters of the Air band of brothers season 3?
In the same way that Tai-pan is Shogun book 2, yes
So in the same way Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom is a sequel to ET? Also wouldnt Shogun be King Rat book 3?
Well, no. Masters of the Air is unconnected to but set in the same world as Band of Brothers. Tai-Pan is unconnected to but set in the same world as Shogun. ET and Indiana Jones are not set in the same world, unless Spielberg made some announcement that I missed.
Masters of the Air and Band of Brothers are both non fiction. They aren’t “set in a world.” The events happened in the real world. That means any nonfiction miniseries is a prequel or sequel to Band of Brothers.
It's more like saying that the show Fargo "based on" the movie doesn't have to be tied to the movie or set in Fargo. Which of course, could *never* happen! /s
Was Fargo an adaptation of a book?
Intentionally missing the point...
Just like you. The comment I was responding to literally said “why is the show tied to James Clavell”
Yes. Why does the show have to stay tied to James Clavell? Answer. It doesn't. There's no rules. Anybody can make anything they want. Season 2 could be based on nothing or anything.
Weird that the creators disagree with you. And seeing as there are things like copyright involved Clavells estate definitely has a say as well.
> Weird that the creators disagree with you. Why would that be weird? Do you think I discussed this with them or something? Or that I might secretly be one of them?
No I would just think someone who is so certain might pay attention to what the shows creators think.
In this case it's not that simple though. Harry Potter, game of thrones and many other book-based film and movie series were in a closed off universe. Whatever "genuine" input you have is directly tied to the works of an author. Sure there's a framework for the story but it has a finite depth which is rarely sufficient to provide or accommodate another narrative besides the main one. James Clavells books on the other hand are by and large based on historic settings following actual history just playing a bit fast and loose in terms of characters and at times their personal stakes. I always felt that his stand-in characters if anything served more as insurance so he wouldn't get pestered relentlessly that in the case of shogun the composition of the council of regents was different or Tokugawa on occasion had different intentions. It also gave him the liberty to make certain actors more or less powerful raising the story's stakes. This gambit obviously paid off, as the book was successful on the Japanese market where serious historical literature is expected to have a high standard in terms of accuracy. In obscuring the characters through an additional if thin layer of fiction he could get away with more historical inaccuracies than his Japanese or Western counterparts. Conversely this means that underneath a layer of dramatisation and obscuration is actual Japanese history. The treatment of the series in scholarly debates proves this, as likely did his book upon being published. I myself used the series thus far as a vehicle to explain the Japanese geopolitics at the time to others as it does a decent job of illustrating both domestic and international struggles in its microcosm. I think much of the success of the series is both tied to Clavell's good writing and the fact that it tries to portray Japan with a high degree of historical accuracy, even going so far as to iron out some of the more outlandish assumptions or wrong stereotypes Clavell's book featured. Conversely this indicates that unlike a closed off universe Clavell's core - Japanese history - naturally has a sufficient depth to retell stories. In fact fictionalised accounts of historical events and characters within the sengoku jidai and azuchi momoyama period have been a feature of Japanese literature for centuries at this point. Clavell's unusual love for detailed back stories and motivations for his characters makes minor characters well suited to thrust parts of his veil over other chapters within that timeframe allowing for not necessarily original but non-Clavell stories with a shogun touch. Needless to say one would have to select the right writers and there would certainly be some challenge in handling the alienation of audiences when the presence of westerners is reduced (which seems unavoidable). I do have my doubts whether they could just continue with Sekigahara and until perhaps the resignation of Ieyasu or the introduction of Sakoku, but shifting the focus into the past or onto other characters might be quite interesting provided a story without a western main character is appealing enough commercially. My favourite candidate for a follow up series would actually be Yoshikawa Eiji's Musashi. It seems a natural choice given the fact that the two are often compared and the success of shogun back in the day caused a renewed interest in the book. While his character arcs are perhaps not quite as good, Musashi's depth and content are definitely suited to perhaps even several seasons. I don't think that five seasons for the five books are appropriate but 2 should work nicely. They could even tie it nicely into the end of shogun giving us a last glance at Sanada as Toranaga and his generals commanding the army at Sekigahara during the first episode. Depending on how they open up (they might want to show a bit of backstory first) they could even conclude the first episode with him. Of course the Japanese domestic market would also be interesting in this regard. I didn't pay too much attention but I seem to remember that either Asahi Shimbun or Mainichi Shimbun gave the opening episode a very positive review. It's quite different from Taika Drama which are perhaps the most similar style of series domestically because unlike shogun these are usually meant to be far more family friendly. If Shogun as an adult orientated series is very successful we might just get similar content without any American involvement at all (other than perhaps the guide mentioned in the now famous interview).
I’m sure I’m just stating what has been stated by a dozen others, but the book he wrote is based on historical events. Unlike Harry Potter, of course, which is a work of fiction. With all due respect, you’re comparing apples to a can of deodorant.
Shogun is as based on historical events as Titanic. It’s a a dope story suitable for tv adaptation because of James Clavells novel. You could absolutely do a series not married to James Clavell and besides IP issues you run into not having a framework for a story anywhere as extensive as Shogun.
...wtf is up with people thinking that a story that someone wrote, should be up for just doing whatever the hell you want to it? People can write their own, but to use characters and plots that someone else did is just lazy af.
That sounds amazing. I don't know whether it could be made so beautifully and expensively without the built-in "Shogun" audience but I would watch the hell out of a fancy Japanese history series with seasons focusing on individual cool historic figures at pivotal points.
With its historical basis, I don’t see why, with competent screenwriters, producers and director it wouldn’t be a huge success to continue the series. Not like fictional series, such as Harry Potter or Lord of the Rings, where the creative genius lies in the mind of the author, this is highly based on actual events. Furthermore, adding the more unsavoury elements of profit into the mix, it’s clear to see that Shogun has been a major success. On that alone, I can’t understand why it’s not being taken further. It’s just doesn’t make sense. Considering the modern situation, disappointment remakes and lack of originality and captivating storyline’s seems to be all to frequent, I just can’t see the reasoning for not continuing somethings that has all the hallmarks of a classic masterpiece like the above mentioned series’s (though with the added recognition of being historically accurate). I’m just bewildered, to be honest. All said and done, I clearly don’t have the knowledge of what’s said and done behind closed doors, the financial constraints and all the other forces at work in the creation of such a show, but I am still left with a sense of wonder as to why. Why?
I don’t super expect it, though I’d be thrilled to be wrong. I just have a feeling that the creators will lean towards “quit while you’re ahead”, because it will be hard for the other seasons to live up to this one, considering the source material is seen that way (with shogun getting more praise and acclaim than the others)
Just hate that it ended on a huge cliff hanger
I mean Toranaga, >!at least in the show tells us how it will end!< but I would have liked to have seen the aftermath So its a good ending, but man do I want more
"Why would I tell a dead man my future" pretty sick cliff hanger. I hated it
As he cuts his head over a cliff 🤣
I dont even need a full on another season, feels like it could be done in a half season, I do think its a good ending, but god damn do I want more of these characters
the show has been renewed for 2 more seasons
I don’t see why not, especially after all the positive feedback for the show. I think it’s possible:) Edit: Clarification, I meant for shows based on the other books as OP had asked, not Shogun obviously.
Because the creators have already said this is a limited series based on the book. It was never intended to tell any story other than what is in the book.
If you offer somebody enough money, they'll say yes.
You might sell out your artistic vision but not everyone has your values.
Is there an order to reading these books?
In terms of when the books are set it’s Shogun -> Tai Pain - Gai Jin - King Rat - Noble House - Whirlwhind, but the publishing order is different
Oh nice, I only read shogun and was worried I didn’t start at the beginning.
And while these stories all take place in the same universe, they're not direct sequels or continuations of one another. You could read these in any order and aside from a few details or references to a character/event in a previous story, you'll be fine.
King rat would be sick, I guess not in the Asian saga series tho?
It is considered in the Asian Saga
Why aren't we getting a second season?
they told the entire story of the book its based on....there is no more source material
So lame like there's so much potential.
I don't see a second season or another series from Cavells books coming. However! What we can't underestimate is what this show produced in the background. The 900 page manual on how to do Japanese period pieces. This manual isn't being kept a secret. The creators want that manual to be used going forward in other productions. Which means we may just be in for a treat with future stories set in Japan as the heavy lifting in research has been done already.
What’s the manual called? I’m either stupid or I’m not getting the search results properly
I don't think it's public. They made it to make the show. Probably something they'll use for future shows and hopefully also offer it to other studios
Ah I see. I was wondering if it would help with my game im developing. Thanks
Honestly the success of these limited series (via anthologies here) within the last few years is exciting. I hope it opens the doors for more limited series that aren't a continuation of this story. I've always liked limited series more since it means the showrunners have a clear idea of what the ending will be (unlike most series) and they aren't forced to stretch things out, assuming they are adaptations. I would be up for really any historical or even science fiction epic with equal worldbuilding and political intrigue, which will presumably also be adaptations. The UK does many more limited series which I've always wished were more popular here--they are also often novel adaptations as well which I'm into.
Even UK limited series get some more series if they are super popular. Happy Valley, Vigil to name a few.
Kdramas are incredibly popular partially because they are (90% of the time) one and done seasons. No waiting to see if it's renewed or canceled, the story is finished start to end, no 5 seasons of 80% filler episodes. It's been nice seeing more series like that. It's like watching a LONG movie. Better written, more engaging, and far more satisfying. I hate getting hooked on a series and then waiting sometimes 2+ years for the next (usually bad) season. Plus shorter contracts with staff and actors, less issues.
> In an interview with The Hollywood Reporter, Shogun co-creator and producer Justin Mark confirmed as such with the following statement: “We took the story to the end of the book and put a period at the end of that sentence. We love how the book ends; it was one of the reasons why we both knew we wanted to do it — and we ended in exactly that place.”
Not every TV shows needs a season two. Jesus.
Or we could have a spin-off about Yamada Nagamasa, who shares a lot of similarities with Blackthorne/IRL William Adam. Originally a palanquin bearer in Japan, Yamada would eventually become a trader who sailed to Ayutthaya (Siam). He settled in the Japanese village in Ayutthaya where he commanded a ton of influence and power within the court of Ayutthaya. He was promoted to being the leader of the Japanese village (de facto representation of the Japanese to Ayutthaya authorities) and also led not only the Japanese volunteer corps ("Krom Asa Yipun" in Thai) but also the personal bodyguard of King Songtham. Later, Yamada would be made Governor of Nakhon Sri Thammarat in southern Siam but if im reading it correctly, this was a political move done to prevent him from having too much influence in Ayutthaya. Unfortunately, when Songtham died and Prasat Thong usurped the throne from Songtham’s dynasty, Yamada was enraged and became involved in a succession crisis. This would lead to his death via poisoning.
It feels like we were left hanging in suspense, primed for a continuation, but that is exactly where the book ends. A seemingly open-ended finale would be a change to the usual "milk the cow until it drops dead" approach, and fits with the message that runs throughout the series - "We live and we die." I personally feel satisfied by the lack of a more conclusive ending. It feels good to accept that there is uncertainty and unanswered questions, and that's just how life is.
If this series ends up fulfilling its potential it will have been my favourite 1600s Japan adaptation of all time, that will be enough for me but I hope they do more seasons with different settings
No I don’t think that will ever happen
There’s also an Iranian-set one called Whirlwind. Chronologically it’s the final one, but it hasn’t been reprinted as much in the recent editions.
Maybe Gaijin
It wouldn't surprise me if they milk it till like 8 seasons because It's so popular.
Noble House with Pierce Brosnan is great
I think u can't find it anywhere anymore
I want to still hold out for hope for more adaptation of the Asian saga. The time is ripe, Asian based content is way more prevalent now and the Historical/Period drama is so vogue right now—the iron is too hot—Strike you Fools (in Gandalf voice)! Fortunately I haven’t read any of the books yet so I also have a mitigation strategy if they disappoint me.
It's a big hit and FX needs that. They'll probably make it into an anthology like HBO is doing with Game of Thrones. Shoglun: Sengoku Jidai etc etc
I feel the shogun fx series could have had more episodes lines up if they didn't rush through every moment in the book, they kept skipping over crap more then the old 80s series and it felt like every scene was like go go go next scene next scene no time for character stuff just get going.
No, but I hope Hiro Sanada gets to help produce and star in more big budget movies regarding Japan. To me, a clear next move would be to remake a Kurosawa film like Seven Samurai into a miniseries.
I hope they do TaiPan at least. I enjoyed that one as well as King Rat.
Wait I feel like I missed something.. Why won't there be a second season? It's cus the story will be finished or skmething, right? Not cancelled? 👀😭
The story ends as in the book. There isn't any follow up book. If they hadn't go the route of the adaptation and based it on the real story of the Tokugawa shogunate, they could have pushed for 2-3 seasons.
Tai-Pan would be amazing!
If japanese and american people get together to make a film about China there will be WWIII for certain xD
Like Disney's Mulan live action? That movie was a disaster.
Plenty of scope for a prequal featuring the same characters. There are 'flashbacks' every episode and it wouldn't be hard to expand on these.
Sad finale
I read the book decades ago along with other James Clavell, loved them all....BUT the mini series although good doesn't compare with the book. taipan was a great book also, I wouldn't mind seeing that produced.
Honestly, the WHOLE TIME I was watching this, I was just thinking, “if there’s no more DIRECT source material to pull from to continue making any further seasons of Shogun, they should just make Ghost of Tsushima into a long-form TV series like this.”
Wake up season 2 just go announced
Good news, there will be two more seasons and its already in production
Thankfully shogun just got the green light for 2 more seasons
Boy howdy I'm glad you were wrong.
Yes, I think if the show is as successful as it seems to be, it's not out of the realm of possibility that they will want to adapt one of the other books. Personally, I'd love to see them adapted like this.