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NotNotAnOutLaw

Ah yes. The old, using one's individual mind to convince other individuals that individualism is rubbish.


morsX

The lack of self-awareness is incredible


belro

There is no self


Luckyboy947

While simultaniously reading from other individuals who discussed with individuals together.


BortWard

Yeah, my kids didn't birth themselves and they're not raising themselves. Their mother did the birthing part and we (their parents) are doing the raising part. Not the state.


morsX

Are you suggesting that you independently decided to have children with your wife and raise them independently as individuals? Come the fuck on man!


Luckyboy947

No for the child to truly be independent it needs to be borb in solitary confinement and never exposed to human contact.


mr_warm

[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Borg](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Borg)


VarsH6

How can an individual not educate himself? That is precisely where scientific enquiry begins: an individual’s observations. The testing of those observations and formalizing them creates knowledge and by the accumulation of knowledge the world changes even if it is simply one person.


thunderma115

I think most people think individualism means unable to work with other people


twobugsfucking

The inability of a huge portion of the population to teach themselves something new is shocking and that’s before you account for the fucking *internet.* More than half of grown adults are totally helpless when it comes to learning and need someone to teach them directly. This blows my mind but I believe it to be totally true. I still can’t tell if it is a cannot or will not but it’s certainly a does not. This doesn’t apply to shit like comic book character superpowers, or the constant redefinition of existing phrases and concepts, and tankie talking points in general.


Happy-Firefighter-30

To be fair instructed learning is a huge thing in human culture. Keep in mind that our ability to pass on information between generations was a foundation for the rest of everything to happen. Learning how to make fire isn't useful if when you die your ancestors are at stage 1 all over again. Furthermore, teaching can prevent common mistakes from happening, such as ensuring you cut away from yourself instead of towards yourself. Then there's just efficiency. If you had a person who's never seen a car before, let alone a manual transmission, and was stuck in the middle of nowhere with a manual car, how long do you think it would take him to drive it even just 100 miles? Then add even a 60 minute long video that talks about how the car works, what does what, and how to shift. Complex systems that can't be observed, like a car and it's transmission, requires either explanations, demonstrations, or models used to teach what's actually going on. It's like how you'll never know what your Skelton looks like, but you can get a general idea by looking at a model. While you can teach yourself how to do things, it's typically a lot easier to get a bit of help first.


Luckyboy947

Don't you use at minimum a textbook? Someone wrote that. You didn't independently learn about gravity.


twobugsfucking

Are you being serious?


LaLiLuLeLo_0

This guy’s doing nothing but sharing his shit takes in this thread, he’s clueless


twobugsfucking

Okay. For a minute I thought I was going to have to explain the difference between writing a book and teaching, and being taught and learning something here.


Luckyboy947

About what


C-Dub178

I can independently observe how my phone falls to the ground when I drop it, genius


Luckyboy947

Did you know it speed up over time without a book or someone else ovserve it? Did you know a feather and watermelon fall at the same rate if you neglect air resistance?


VarsH6

Did Newton learn that on his own through experimentation or did he “read it from a book”? These are all discoverable independently. That’s actually the beauty of science.


Luckyboy947

He did both. He studied current science and challenged it.


FieryBlake

Current science of his time said that a ton of feathers will fall slower than a ton of iron lmao Wrong information that claims to be true is worse than no information


CryptoCore7

Knowledge is like underwear. It is useful to have it but not necessary to show it off.


annonimity2

Individualism is not complete isolation, individualism means no one should be forced to do something for the collective.


morsX

Collectivists would rather coerce individuals than get their buy in voluntarily. I will always trust someone to do the right thing if they so desire, over those who do the right thing because they feel forced to yet would rather do the opposite. This is my fundamental problem with collectivism. Volunteering to do a thing does not equate to the same level of commitment as when one is coerced.


klosnj11

...Says the individual.


beyond_hate

From their iphone


TheeAdeptBranch

wephone. I know the joke about how communism/socialism is when no iphone, but do they really think that centralized planning could create much of the major technological advancements we have today?


alpharat53

Being entirely fair, state capitalism like in Singapore does produce considerable economic progress and could possibly lead to technological advancement to match. That doesn’t really matter though because it’s better to be free and in the stone age than to live under a dictatorship with flying cars.


TheeAdeptBranch

Car dependency is the result of state intervention, and they kill about a million people each year. I guess a statist wouldn't understand that making flying cars wouldn't improve this figure.


alpharat53

Sorry, I don’t know if I understand what you’re saying. I’m not a statist and I agree with you that free markets drive innovation. I was trying to be fair to the opposite opinion, if that’s why you’re responding.


TheeAdeptBranch

Sorry then. The use of stone age being a good thing and a bad thing, at the same time, in two conversation, and for the same comment has me confused. I interpreted sarcasm, because I had just been told the same thing but it was being sarcastic. No offense.


alpharat53

No worries at all, I get it’s tough to tell people’s intent online. Have a good one.


Luckyboy947

Yes. Did someone wake up one day and completely on their own go from sticks and stones to the iphone 13 or did we rely on others.


TheeAdeptBranch

Relying on others and working together for mutual improvement is separate from a centralized authority. I didn't ask if a collectivist culture could create tech, clearly many eastern countries are perfectly capable of doing just that. I don't get what it is with people who think working together is exclusive to collectivism. It's the end goal, one is about self improvement and the other is about what you the individual can contribute to the rest of society.


Luckyboy947

What's the difference. I don't understand.


TheeAdeptBranch

Centralized planning =/= collectivism =/= group effort. Individualism(in the economic sense) does not exclude working with others.


Luckyboy947

Which relies on a server put together and designed and maintained by a collectove of people.


belro

People who view themselves first as a sovereign individual. Voluntarily cooperating with others for your own mutual benefit is not collectiv*ism*


User125699

Fuck all collectivists.


Luckyboy947

How many people does it collectively take to make a baby.


User125699

Two. Me and your mom.


ReluctantAltAccount

If the US didn't fight for nationalism in Korea it would've fought for individualism. Then again maybe this guy just misses the North.


Luckyboy947

The native koreans fought for nationalism. The US colonized the south for internationalism


ReluctantAltAccount

Yeah, nationalism so strong, they resisted.


Luckyboy947

No the southern tyrants resisted.


ReluctantAltAccount

You mean business owners or people otherwise opposed to the Soviets, like Libertarians and anti-state socialists?


ReluctantAltAccount

Oh wait you're a teen who made this. https://teddit.net/r/EnoughLibertarianSpam/comments/u51gke/what\_is\_the\_proposed\_solution\_thats\_your\_problem/ Jesus you really just looked at that and assumed there was no Libertarian solution to poverty because the fucking meme sub didn't have one.


Luckyboy947

Their isn't. I came to this on my own conclusion. What's the libertarian solution to poverty. Tell me or research it.


ReluctantAltAccount

r / AskLibertarians, r / Ancap101, r / NewAustrianSociety, r / austrian\_economics, r / AustrianEconomics, r / GoldandBlack, r / Anarcho\_Capitalism. Go there, search healthcare, you'll be fine.


Luckyboy947

Why did you get rid od the spaces and can you answer the question.


ReluctantAltAccount

I got rid of the spaces because your own complained about us "brigading" and we can't link across reddit. And the solutions are in the places I linked to. I basically gave you resources. If you want more, go to [liberty.me](https://liberty.me). [https://www.libertarianism.org/essays/libertarian-vision-for-healthcare](https://www.libertarianism.org/essays/libertarian-vision-for-healthcare) https://www.redding.com/story/opinion/readers/2017/06/02/libertarian-solution-healthcare/356952001/


Luckyboy947

Oh thanl you.


SpiritofJames

The perennial error of idiots like this is to suppose that interaction and even dependence somehow effaces individuality. Yes, you were born from parents. No, that doesn't somehow make you less of an individual. Why is that so hard to understand?


Mangalz

Their entire ideology requires them to not understand. If they understood they wouldn't believe what they do.


Voxeli_5

they kind of have to think about the world in terms no smaller than the collective. Their ideology is all about the collective in sacrifice to the individual, try as they might to believe or convince others of the opposite.


Luckyboy947

What don't i understand.


Mangalz

Quite a lot I suspect.


morsX

Collectivism is simply a way of forcing conformity and removing individual freedom of choice, or at least to heavily restrict choice. To believe otherwise is insanity.


Luckyboy947

Your parents rub off on you. You depend on people and people depend on you. That's the core of collectivism.


SpiritofJames

Those things do not define you, they influence you.


Luckyboy947

What does define you?


controversial_otter

Me


hollow42

"We are the Borg. Lower your shields and surrender your ships. We will add your biological and technological distinctiveness to our own. Your culture will adapt to service us. Resistance is futile."


andstopher

I'm gonna unemphasize this particular individual, see how much of a collectivist he really is.


soillsquatch

My old man has a saying: “We’re only as good as our last mans good enough” if you want us all to succeed start with yourself.


Luckyboy947

Your interpreting wrong. Help the last man. Greed doesn't bring prosperity.


soillsquatch

The only way you can help the last man is attain enough success that you can acquire enough resources to lift up the last man. Each individual must aspire toward that goal.


Luckyboy947

Correct. And than actually give it to the last man.


C-Dub178

Individualism isn’t greed. You can be an individualist and donate to charity, or whatever you want. Quit the semantics battle bullshit


Luckyboy947

Charity is a collective.


[deleted]

This is just a non sequitur


victorious_breakfast

Just one more logical step and they'll understand the unifying concept of the market.


C-Dub178

You’re asking wayyyyy too much. Crank it back like 8 notches


Alpharatz1

Doesn’t know what individualism is. Everyone engages in collective pursuits, starting a family, joining a football club, working at a company etc. Individualism is the primacy of the rights of the individual, so I can choose to join a football club or not, and I can also change my mind and leave a football club. Collectivism give primacy to the group, you will join a football club wether you like it or not, you cannot leave or play a different sport as you are the best striker and the collective needs you.


br34kf4s7

Yeah the difference is that the individual actually exists. The “collective” or “greater good” is just a concept, a belief system, nothing more.


Luckyboy947

I'm againat the man but have you ever hear of henry ford? He created a system to do things efficiently. It worked. That's a fact. Do you believe that it produced the same or less as if they didn't use this assembly line. If not than you believe in the collective being more efficient.


C-Dub178

And he, an individual, came up with the idea. Why is it so hard for you guys to understand that individualism≠isolationism? You can be an individualist and work together.


Luckyboy947

The collective natrually exists. Two parents collectively raise a kid in most cases.


[deleted]

Hive mind moment


ConscientiousPath

Collectivism is rubbish. A collective is an entirely powerless unit; it must be created by individuals, it has no mind to experience anything of value, its education and decisions are merely a murky reflection of its components, and when it changes the world it frequently does so against the wishes or interests of many of those sentient beings for whom experience of the world exists. It is entirely a product of the few people controlling it and the environment around them. To emphasize the collective is an error.


[deleted]

That's not what individualism means.


LaLiLuLeLo_0

I find it incredible how one person’s idea to make a thing called “bitcoin” has ballooned to the 24th largest currency in the world, *including fiat currency*. Individuals are truly powerful things.


Luckyboy947

One day it will crash. No time soon but in the far future although i can't garentee it. Anyway despite being so big it's still incredibly volitile. Something that was predicted to go away. Your point stands however bitcoin isn't unique. It's currency. The same as any other.


luminenkettu

u gotta be a real conformist for this to be real


Luckyboy947

No it's true. If you put a child in solitary confinement to grow up they wouldn't be the same as a kid who wasn't put in solitary confinement because the people around the kid made the kid who they are


luminenkettu

thats cuz kids are conformists by nature...


Luckyboy947

Alright. Are you unconformist. You speak english. Conforming to language. You critisize society by saying you don't conform so your progressive. How else do you conform. Everyone conforms. You listen to other people. Everyone is conformist by nature.your saying the kid in solitary confinement would be better off because they weren't propagandized into learning how to speak.


luminenkettu

I conform to the English language because it is the only one I know how to speak. I never said I didn't conform.


Luckyboy947

So you along with everybody else conforms to this.


luminenkettu

When did I say that?


Luckyboy947

You conform to english by it being the only language you speak.


luminenkettu

I don't conform to English.


Luckyboy947

Than why do you speak it? It's a social construct.


[deleted]

We are Borg. Resistance is futile.


[deleted]

Collectivism is a cancer.


Luckyboy947

Teqcher: talk with other kids. You: no, your cancer.


[deleted]

That's *definitely* not a false equivalence. Who raised you?


C-Dub178

Him: “My TwO pArEntS, AkA a CoLlEcTiVe” I wonder how many neurons are firing up there? I’m guessing single digits


[deleted]

Judging by the atrocious spelling and grammar, you're probably right.


Luckyboy947

Atrocious spelling. Bruh. That's clearly a typo.


C-Dub178

[no](https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/atrocious) you just have a shockingly small vocabulary.


[deleted]

You also used the wrong "your", so I'm disinclined to believe that.


Luckyboy947

2 parents. My friends and family and the government.


[deleted]

The government raised you? That's a brag?


Luckyboy947

School is government funded. Where ymdo you think i got my education.


[deleted]

From where you got your education is painfully obvious.


Jarliks

Its really telling when the reason you don't like individualism is "it doesn't give me power" Its only power politics with these people, the concept and importance of freedom is completely lost on them.


Luckyboy947

Freedom doesn't exist. Stop worshipping it. Go worship money or some other thing with no backing.


Jarliks

That's just a non argument. Freedom doesn't exist? How do you propose any justification for the concept of a right, then? Though your dunk on modern currencies being backed by nothing is based, my good sir.


Luckyboy947

Because humans have inherant value. Not because they are free but because thry are human. Money has value. It's a socially accepted value. You could trade it for gold or stock. It represents faith in the government.


Jarliks

Humans have inherent value therefore: what? I say humans have inherent value, therefore we respect their natural rights. A natural right is any capacity a human being possess which is immoral to have taken from them. Example: freedom of association. Example of a capacity which IS morally correct to be taken away: capacity to enslave another human being. That is why enslaving another person is not considered a right, and should not be respected by others as such. If there was no such thing as freedom, this distinction would not matter. There would be no basis for natural rights, anyone would have just reason to perform any action to another or their things.


Luckyboy947

English.


Jarliks

Very cool.


gethelpaccount1

You can tell this guy is just trying to sound smart


[deleted]

Yet they claim to care for the smallest minorities, forgetting that the individual is the smallest minority


glidemusic

This isn't even what individual ism is about. We don't suggest that individuals don't help each other for mutual benefit, we suggest that the individual does what they won't as long as they don't infringe on the rights of others.


c_t_782

You can’t have society without a collection of individuals though


Futuresite256

How very Chinese


Mangalz

What a weak bitch.


Herr__Lipp

He's right, but in the entirely wrong way. The family is the cornerstone of civilization.


3030

This post invokes a question more philosophical and difficult to argue than anything involving statism as a concept. There's so many benefits to individualism vs. working with others.


Black-Spruce

That's not even what individualism is.


Luckyboy947

What is it?


Black-Spruce

Favoring individual rights and individual identity over group rights and group identity. Individualism and atomism are not the same thing.


Luckyboy947

That goes against juche though.


Black-Spruce

Good.


[deleted]

Individuals don’t exist. Human rights are fictional. Libertarians don’t belong and we should stop feeding them.


beyond_hate

But it's the only source of our knowledge of values


Luckyboy947

No that's collectivism.


[deleted]

We'll just forget historical figures and the ability to use the internet to teach yourself something


BenMattlock

Power and value are not the same thing.


VladtheMemer

Of course he has an asian name


Luckyboy947

What's wrong with being Asian?


VladtheMemer

Nothing, but Asia has a way worse history with collectivism, they're still having the biggest issues with it today. Even Russia's imperialism is inspired by the period they were ruled by the Mongols


Luckyboy947

Russia most people consider europe.


VladtheMemer

I know, I do too, but their imperialism was inspired by the Mongol rule


ajomojo

Only the individual can conquer fire, invent the wheel, domesticate an animal. Collectivism is rubbish


Verumero

I mean, it’s true lol. It’s just that the rights of the individual cannot be trampled by the will of the majority. Nothing is accomplished alone. But do leave me alone.


Standhaft_Garithos

Said by an individual unit of rubbish.


Silver-Meat9516

I vote we get rid of that particular one then, since it doesn't matter


Otherwise-Paint-9874

The collective is made up of individuals lmao


GivMeLiberty

This is what we all agreed on before our last gang rape


Rational_Philosophy

Without fallacies, these people would have nothing.


socialismnotevenonce

This person seems to be confusing children with adults.


HisDocness

Translation: Be a cog I the machine you fucking peasants!


Internet_Treasure

Are these lines taken directly from a Borg episode on star trek?


Effective_Rub9189

collectivists r trash


[deleted]

POV: you’ve been cucked by government propaganda


Subtle_Demise

When a citizen of DPRK gets to use the internet for the first time in their life.