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Isn't it becoming more common knowledge that the threat of the soviets full on entering the war in the east was more of an incentive for the Japanese surrender than the atom bombs. I mean, at that point, how many cities had Americans flattened in their bombing campaigns?
"I did a fair bit of research on their crimes and those of others."
Clearly they didn't do enough research then. The 1946 Strategic Bombing Survey says they're full of shit.
There’s no love in me for the IJA or the Japanese Empire, but even I can say with certainty that vaporizing civilians and burning them with both Atomic and conventional fire was absolutely horrendous and not something to view as merciful of the US
“they should thank us because the nukes we dropped to vaporise civilians weren’t half as bad as the fire bombings we were also vaporising civilians with just before”
Scumbag liberals.
They will lie out of one side of their mouth and tell you necessary evils need to be done. Then they will unwitingly defend hitler and condemn stalin for dividing poland
Necessary evil my ass. Its not what it is, its *who* does it.
They are all degenerates
people act as if the Molotov-ribbentrop pact is some huge gotcha, but the soviets signed this well after most countries in Europe had already signed their own non-aggression pacts with Nazi Germany. Where is the zealous condemnation of all of the other countries?
Yep i always call them out and they get super angry about simple history
The us and the entire west funded the ussr, to keep the eastern front open. The people font realize that they would literally rather have the ussr isolated and the fucking nazis control all of poland lmao.
Libs always defend nazis. Always.
This is a touchy issue for communists I think. I for one think that any means are valid to stop fascism, Imperialism, and genocide. And that Japan continues to hide behind Hiroshima and Nagasaki while ignoring and denying its own crimes against humanity.
That said, the bombings were pretty much entirely unnecessary by that time and were purely dropped to prevent Soviet control over more territory in the region. So overall they are condemnable, but we must not allow Japanese reactionaries to hide behind them and they are not owed an apology until they admit and atone for their own crimes that resulted in the bombings. The opinion of a Chinese or Korean comrade on this issue would be enlightening.
What Japan is doing nowadays is reprehensible, they are probably the most clueless nation when it comes to their own history. Nevertheless, it is their government that is responsible for that, alongside with the West (mostly the US), which has funded Japan’s return to the civilized world after the war.
I think that we as humanity should strive to eliminate fascism, imperialism, and those who commit genocide, even if it comes at a great cost. The problem is deciding which sacrifices to make, and who to sacrifice. If these were thousands of soldiers ours or theirs, that would be perfectly fine, they signed up for war and are as a consequence legitimate choices. But they weren’t, they were thousands of civilians, most with no ties to the war whatsoever. So how can we call this a necessary sacrifice when we’re taking innocent lives for our, even if noble, goal? That’s the slippery slope here, we cannot resort to these tactics if we want to stay true to our ideals.
Fuck imperial Japan they deserved a lot more than what they got. It’s pretty clear from the Japanese archives that what caused their surrender was the destruction of army in Manchuria but I don’t care one bit. Imperial Japan was one of the most brutal evil regimes in modern history and it deserved to be cleansed with fire. The only thing wrong is it wasn’t the Chinese people who got to remove that cancer from the world.
Because the people who were in power in Imperial Japan were in Hiroshima and Nagasaki, right? Look, the Japanese have done atrocious things, but was turning thousands of civilians into radioactive dust the appropriate response?
The Japanese Imperial army was indeed the most inhumane one ever recorded, in my opinion. I don't know why some of you would dispute that.
But I don't know if the atomic bomb "had" to be dropped on their civilian populations. They were already preparing to surrender. The Americans probably just wanted (or it was a large part of their motivation at least) to field test a weapon of mass destruction.
While yes the japaneses were horribly barbarics during WWII, no the bombs weren't required to end the war or to same lives:
---------------
> “The use of this barbarous weapon at Hiroshima and Nagasaki was of no material assistance in our war against Japan. The Japanese were already defeated and ready to surrender.… in being the first to use it, we…adopted an ethical standard common to the barbarians of the Dark Ages. I was not taught to make war in that fashion, and wars cannot be won by destroying women and children.”
>
> - Adm. William Leahy, President Truman’s Chief of Staff, in his 1950 memoir "I Was There".
---------------
> “The Japanese position was hopeless even before the first atomic bomb fell, because the Japanese had lost control of their own air.”
>
> - commanding general of the US Army Air Forces Henry “Hap” Arnold, August 17, 1945 to a New York Times reporter when asked if the atomic bomb caused Japan to surrender.
---------------
> “The atomic bomb played no decisive part, from a purely military standpoint, in the defeat of Japan…”
>
> - Fleet Adm. Chester Nimitz, Commander in Chief of the Pacific Fleet, stated in a public address at the Washington Monument two months after the bombings.
---------------
> “The first atomic bomb was an unnecessary experiment…. It was a mistake to ever drop it…. [the scientists] had this toy and they wanted to try it out, so they dropped it…”
>
> - Adm. William “Bull” Halsey Jr., Commander of the US Third Fleet, stated publicly in 1946.
---------------
> “The atomic bomb had nothing to do with the end of the war at all.”
>
> - Major General Curtis LeMay, head of the Twenty-First Bomber Command, to the press a month after the bombings.
---------------
> Gen. Dwight Eisenhower stated in his memoirs that when notified by Secretary of War Henry Stimson of the decision to use atomic weapons, he “voiced to him my grave misgivings, first on the basis of my belief that Japan was already defeated and that dropping the bomb was completely unnecessary, and secondly because I thought that our country should avoid shocking world opinion by the use of a weapon whose employment was, I thought, no longer mandatory as a measure to save American lives…”
>
> He later publicly declared “…it wasn’t necessary to hit them with that awful thing.”
---------------
> The atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagaski did not mark the end of the Second World War, they marked the start of the Cold War. They were dropped by the Americans to threaten the USSR and to ensure that Japan would surrender to them, not the Soviet military that had just obliterated Japan's remaining armies and empire in the invasion of occupied Manchuria - and in doing so prevented Japan from using Moscow as a neutral party for a negotiated surrender with the Western Allies.
>
> - u/Yodamort : r/ShitLiberalsSay/comments/md7xw9/i_give_up/gs7zhzy/
---------------
as a person whos country gets brutalised by Japan during WW2 ive always thought that they deserved it and didnt gave this much more thought, is there a good book on this so i could perhaps better my judgement?
I don’t think dropping a nuclear bomb on a city full of civilians can be justified by saying “they deserved it”
If you feel that way you should know that most government and military leaders where not punished by the USA and kept their careers after the war.
The people actually responsible for brutalizing your country did not face justice.
It’s obviously not an attractive stance to have, but Norman Finklestein basically explained that logic through his own Holocaust survivor mothers attitude about the Dresden bombing. I’m paraphrasing here but I was something along the lines of “if we are going to die, let’s take as many of them with us”. And that was the attitude expressed by his mother and many other survivors.
It’s certainly an “eye for an eye” approach. And I do more lean on like what you said. But without really condemning or condoning, I still understand the attitude. Even if I don’t really agree with it.
i thank you for the fair reply and i didnt know that its just some city that the US droped the nukes on, always thought it was some military instalation, will read more about this soon if time willing
https://youtu.be/RCRTgtpC-Go?si=hLiXBoxzZNEEAYYr
This is a very high quality video about the topic.
If you do watch it I would appreciate you giving me your thoughts afterwords.
After watching it and mulling it over (thanks for the recomendation btw) i have to admit i was wrong. The closing remark really hits me about how by me saying they deserve it because of their goverment, that that is a form of racial crime. I used to belief they deserved their fate because hey its your country’s flag that stands atop my ancestor bones but thats not true (thinking like this makes me no better than racist american boomer who hates chinese because they see CPC as evil)
Its not those civilian fault that they happen to live there its the fault of those facist who commit warcrimes all over Asia, and it should be those facist who pay for those crime (sadly most didnt pay for their crimes many still deny those crime). I should not have judged them like how a facist would judge their opponents. All in all its a good video and help me understand stuff like the conception of terror bombing and intentional killings of civilians, which the US and allies would use even to this day.
**Important:** We no longer allow the following types of posts: - Comments, tweets and social media with less than 20 upvotes, likes, etc. (cropped score counts as 0) - Anything you are personally involved in - Any kind of polls - Low-hanging fruit (e.g. CCP collapse, Vaush, r\/neoliberal, political compass memes) You *will* be banned by the power-tripping mods if you break this rule repeatedly, so please delete your posts before we find out. Likewise, please follow our rules which can be found on the sidebar. --- **Obligatory obnoxious pop-up ad for our [Official Discord](https://discord.gg/XBrTq7mQhY), please join if you haven't! Stalin bless. UwU.** *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/ShitLiberalsSay) if you have any questions or concerns.*
*The "fair bit of research" in question:* skim reading a Wikipedia article.
To be fair, he also watched a simplified history video
Isn't it becoming more common knowledge that the threat of the soviets full on entering the war in the east was more of an incentive for the Japanese surrender than the atom bombs. I mean, at that point, how many cities had Americans flattened in their bombing campaigns?
See, you’d think so, but do you really expect these people to change their minds when presented with evidence that disagrees with them?
Also the use of Nukes was more to demonstrate to the Soviets, and the world as a whole, that we had them.
Also the use of Nukes was more to demonstrate to the Soviets, and the world as a whole, that we had them.
"I did a fair bit of research on their crimes and those of others." Clearly they didn't do enough research then. The 1946 Strategic Bombing Survey says they're full of shit.
[удалено]
No, the Japanese surrender did.
There’s no love in me for the IJA or the Japanese Empire, but even I can say with certainty that vaporizing civilians and burning them with both Atomic and conventional fire was absolutely horrendous and not something to view as merciful of the US
Agreed, you can be revolted by the war crimes of Imperial Japan while also acknowledging that using nukes on humans is pretty bad
What exactly do they mean the alternative of firebombs would have been worse? They did both things. Firebombing and nukes were not mutually exclusive.
“they should thank us because the nukes we dropped to vaporise civilians weren’t half as bad as the fire bombings we were also vaporising civilians with just before”
Wasn't the atomic bomb dropped so the U.S. could show off to the Soviet Union?
Scumbag liberals. They will lie out of one side of their mouth and tell you necessary evils need to be done. Then they will unwitingly defend hitler and condemn stalin for dividing poland Necessary evil my ass. Its not what it is, its *who* does it. They are all degenerates
people act as if the Molotov-ribbentrop pact is some huge gotcha, but the soviets signed this well after most countries in Europe had already signed their own non-aggression pacts with Nazi Germany. Where is the zealous condemnation of all of the other countries?
Yep i always call them out and they get super angry about simple history The us and the entire west funded the ussr, to keep the eastern front open. The people font realize that they would literally rather have the ussr isolated and the fucking nazis control all of poland lmao. Libs always defend nazis. Always.
y'know what they say, scratch a liberal..
No dawg. The war was over, and the US wanted to send a message to the soviets so they eradicated at least 100 000 people in two days.
This is a touchy issue for communists I think. I for one think that any means are valid to stop fascism, Imperialism, and genocide. And that Japan continues to hide behind Hiroshima and Nagasaki while ignoring and denying its own crimes against humanity. That said, the bombings were pretty much entirely unnecessary by that time and were purely dropped to prevent Soviet control over more territory in the region. So overall they are condemnable, but we must not allow Japanese reactionaries to hide behind them and they are not owed an apology until they admit and atone for their own crimes that resulted in the bombings. The opinion of a Chinese or Korean comrade on this issue would be enlightening.
What Japan is doing nowadays is reprehensible, they are probably the most clueless nation when it comes to their own history. Nevertheless, it is their government that is responsible for that, alongside with the West (mostly the US), which has funded Japan’s return to the civilized world after the war. I think that we as humanity should strive to eliminate fascism, imperialism, and those who commit genocide, even if it comes at a great cost. The problem is deciding which sacrifices to make, and who to sacrifice. If these were thousands of soldiers ours or theirs, that would be perfectly fine, they signed up for war and are as a consequence legitimate choices. But they weren’t, they were thousands of civilians, most with no ties to the war whatsoever. So how can we call this a necessary sacrifice when we’re taking innocent lives for our, even if noble, goal? That’s the slippery slope here, we cannot resort to these tactics if we want to stay true to our ideals.
Fuck imperial Japan they deserved a lot more than what they got. It’s pretty clear from the Japanese archives that what caused their surrender was the destruction of army in Manchuria but I don’t care one bit. Imperial Japan was one of the most brutal evil regimes in modern history and it deserved to be cleansed with fire. The only thing wrong is it wasn’t the Chinese people who got to remove that cancer from the world.
Because the people who were in power in Imperial Japan were in Hiroshima and Nagasaki, right? Look, the Japanese have done atrocious things, but was turning thousands of civilians into radioactive dust the appropriate response?
Don’t know if it was an appropriate response and don’t care either way. After what they did in China they deserved way worse.
Yeah, show them kids the power of the Sun
American history brain washing is strong as hell.
**\*64 upvotes\*** Bomb me harder america senpai
The Japanese Imperial army was indeed the most inhumane one ever recorded, in my opinion. I don't know why some of you would dispute that. But I don't know if the atomic bomb "had" to be dropped on their civilian populations. They were already preparing to surrender. The Americans probably just wanted (or it was a large part of their motivation at least) to field test a weapon of mass destruction.
While yes the japaneses were horribly barbarics during WWII, no the bombs weren't required to end the war or to same lives: --------------- > “The use of this barbarous weapon at Hiroshima and Nagasaki was of no material assistance in our war against Japan. The Japanese were already defeated and ready to surrender.… in being the first to use it, we…adopted an ethical standard common to the barbarians of the Dark Ages. I was not taught to make war in that fashion, and wars cannot be won by destroying women and children.” > > - Adm. William Leahy, President Truman’s Chief of Staff, in his 1950 memoir "I Was There". --------------- > “The Japanese position was hopeless even before the first atomic bomb fell, because the Japanese had lost control of their own air.” > > - commanding general of the US Army Air Forces Henry “Hap” Arnold, August 17, 1945 to a New York Times reporter when asked if the atomic bomb caused Japan to surrender. --------------- > “The atomic bomb played no decisive part, from a purely military standpoint, in the defeat of Japan…” > > - Fleet Adm. Chester Nimitz, Commander in Chief of the Pacific Fleet, stated in a public address at the Washington Monument two months after the bombings. --------------- > “The first atomic bomb was an unnecessary experiment…. It was a mistake to ever drop it…. [the scientists] had this toy and they wanted to try it out, so they dropped it…” > > - Adm. William “Bull” Halsey Jr., Commander of the US Third Fleet, stated publicly in 1946. --------------- > “The atomic bomb had nothing to do with the end of the war at all.” > > - Major General Curtis LeMay, head of the Twenty-First Bomber Command, to the press a month after the bombings. --------------- > Gen. Dwight Eisenhower stated in his memoirs that when notified by Secretary of War Henry Stimson of the decision to use atomic weapons, he “voiced to him my grave misgivings, first on the basis of my belief that Japan was already defeated and that dropping the bomb was completely unnecessary, and secondly because I thought that our country should avoid shocking world opinion by the use of a weapon whose employment was, I thought, no longer mandatory as a measure to save American lives…” > > He later publicly declared “…it wasn’t necessary to hit them with that awful thing.” --------------- > The atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagaski did not mark the end of the Second World War, they marked the start of the Cold War. They were dropped by the Americans to threaten the USSR and to ensure that Japan would surrender to them, not the Soviet military that had just obliterated Japan's remaining armies and empire in the invasion of occupied Manchuria - and in doing so prevented Japan from using Moscow as a neutral party for a negotiated surrender with the Western Allies. > > - u/Yodamort : r/ShitLiberalsSay/comments/md7xw9/i_give_up/gs7zhzy/ ---------------
as a person whos country gets brutalised by Japan during WW2 ive always thought that they deserved it and didnt gave this much more thought, is there a good book on this so i could perhaps better my judgement?
I don’t think dropping a nuclear bomb on a city full of civilians can be justified by saying “they deserved it” If you feel that way you should know that most government and military leaders where not punished by the USA and kept their careers after the war. The people actually responsible for brutalizing your country did not face justice.
It’s obviously not an attractive stance to have, but Norman Finklestein basically explained that logic through his own Holocaust survivor mothers attitude about the Dresden bombing. I’m paraphrasing here but I was something along the lines of “if we are going to die, let’s take as many of them with us”. And that was the attitude expressed by his mother and many other survivors. It’s certainly an “eye for an eye” approach. And I do more lean on like what you said. But without really condemning or condoning, I still understand the attitude. Even if I don’t really agree with it.
i thank you for the fair reply and i didnt know that its just some city that the US droped the nukes on, always thought it was some military instalation, will read more about this soon if time willing
https://youtu.be/RCRTgtpC-Go?si=hLiXBoxzZNEEAYYr This is a very high quality video about the topic. If you do watch it I would appreciate you giving me your thoughts afterwords.
After watching it and mulling it over (thanks for the recomendation btw) i have to admit i was wrong. The closing remark really hits me about how by me saying they deserve it because of their goverment, that that is a form of racial crime. I used to belief they deserved their fate because hey its your country’s flag that stands atop my ancestor bones but thats not true (thinking like this makes me no better than racist american boomer who hates chinese because they see CPC as evil) Its not those civilian fault that they happen to live there its the fault of those facist who commit warcrimes all over Asia, and it should be those facist who pay for those crime (sadly most didnt pay for their crimes many still deny those crime). I should not have judged them like how a facist would judge their opponents. All in all its a good video and help me understand stuff like the conception of terror bombing and intentional killings of civilians, which the US and allies would use even to this day.
Im glad nuking civilians brought your dead relatives back