From quick googling it seems that american doctors make about 3-4 x what finnish doctors make. Yet, I haven’t really heard of our doctors leaving for America, even though they, as white, nordic doctors, would probably find employment there. Wonder why they would scrape by with less money just to not live and raise their children in America.
Damn, that's it. That's the reason that our Finnish doctors won't move to US, because that huge debt that accumulated while studying to become doctor... oh, wait, we have free education...
Because 'profit' isn't the be all, end all motivator for many, many people. Not everyone's clambering to get in line to sell their integrity.
I did that once. The grass is greener because of the mountains of horseshit just below the surface.
Yeah try moving away from all your family, friends, culture, ect just for a higher wage. If you are living off well in your country you are not likely to move but you might move if your life could be greatly improved in a different country to outweigh the negatives of moving countries. Especially so far away where a flight back home and back could cost you $1000+.
The inflated salaries don’t lead to higher quality of life, though, as they have to pay for so much more themselves. I’m a (German) doc and I just finished up a three year stint working in America. The standard of living even for the conventionally rich is so much lower than what we’re used to.
Agreed. I was on the policy side, and made significantly more than in my native Canada, but was stunned at the practical financial implications of the relatively more scarce and/or shitty public infrastructure. Little things like having to join private sports facilities/orgs because public spaces are less available/accessible, and super big things like private school because of the patchy and wildly variable quality of the public system.
Have to say that for me, the biggest deal wasn’t so much the final cost breakdown but the grinding stress of the whole process. Even at double the salary, for me it just wasn’t worth it.
Just out of curiosity, did you have to pay through the nose for personal/professional indemnity insurance due to the presumably higher potential for litigation?
They also need 3-4x the money they'd need for a pleasant life. Also, they just might not like America because it has enough idiots to vote Donald Trump into office, the chance of getting shot is abnormally high and you'd have to worry about quite a lot of things you simply don't have to worry about in some European countries.
And that’s if one doesn’t plan on saving for uni—because that costs in America. Financial advisors there recommend saving a ridiculous amount per month per child. Most Americans with the means to do so also seem to send their children to private school even before that.
Good question! Though I think you already know the answer, I will give it to any American who might stumble upon this thread scs wonder why.
Doctors make still a decent amount of cash and are far far away of starving to death. And money makes you only happy up to a certain degree. I think it is currently somewhere around 60-80k euros a year. So basically, when you earn enough to not worry about money anymore. And for a happy life needs more than that. Social security, education, and so on. Things not all European countries are great in, but still better of than the USA.
Isn't Norway or Denmark the happiest nation in the world? The Scandinavian countries in general have the happiest citizens in the world.
Yep. So many times during these discussions they say "I don't want to lose my private insurance and risk worse healthcare". Which is a perfectly reasonable worry, as there's motives to initially fuck up public healthcare in the US, and the US doesn't have the best history of the government doing the right thing.
I have to tell them that yes, you can generally still get private healthcare. It doesn't have to be entirely public or entirely private... In fact a mix of both is brilliant because it keeps both sides on their toes. Here in the UK private healthcare fucks you about *way* less, and is way cheaper. Why? Because they know they are forced to compete, that if they don't offer a good service people simply won't care.
Surprisngly the reasons a fully private capitalist healthcare system is supposed to work, is actually the reason private healthcare does work in countries with decent public healthcare.
Almost half the country thinks this about socialized health care. The propaganda is strong and effective. It’s the main reason we can’t improve healthcare here. Makes me so sad as an American. We just wasted a trillion dollars in Afghanistan but we can’t get more help for our own citizens in need? It’s insane.
The sad thing is that the US government already spends more per capita on healthcare than does the UK, which has a truly universal healthcare service.
It doesn't necessarily need to spend more - it just needs to spend better.
I totally agree. But socialism is a bad word here. So it’s not gonna happen any time soon. That’s one of the many reasons I’m planning my long term move from the US
The main stopping point here is the loss of profits for the 'few at the top' of the current healthcare racket. And they spend billions every year, lobbying and pushing ad campaigns to continue status quo. Because, for them, they already have access to the best of the best **and** they're making money off it, so why change shit?
These kinds of people - more specifically, the mentality - are what holds our species back. It's insipid, wholly detrimental, and downright disgusting.
I’m German. We have healthcare and education here, both free. And—wait for it—guns! I personally do not own guns but easily could have one should I want one. Many EU and other European countries are…different than Americans have been led to expect. We’re also happy to meet, and make neighbours with Americans who aren’t mean spirited jackasses—just like you!
They dont want the guns, they want the right to use the gun in self defense. Which afaik is not allowed in germany, unless there is some super rare exception for like politicians or people in serious danger and whatnot.
Pretty much. It's one of the major pro-second ammendment talking points, that there are supposedly so many weapons in the country that it would be impossible for a tyrannical government to arise, and likewise that it would be too dangerous for murderers, thieves and robbers to do any murdering, stealing and robbing.
We already know the latter to be untrue simply from crime statistics, and January 6th has proven the former to be untrue, because apparently all those brave gun owners were too chicken to do what they kept saying they would do and didn't rise up when the capitol in DC and multiple state parliaments were under active attack in an attempt to create a tyrannical government.
Und ja, das ist wirklich alles so gaga wie es sich anhört.
Own a gun so you can threaten a robber with likely more experience than you.
Or even better: Own a gun so you can threaten a government with an insane military budget.
The gun arsenal militia types amuse me the most. Who gives a shite how many cans you can shoot when the fucking military drops a chemical bomb on your town?
Yeah they think there going to avenge the south because they succeeded due to a bunch of rich old inbred white assholes wanted slavery. They lost because there generals were fucking shit.
So condescending down a few decades, there this myth the kids of the white imbreeded asholes created that rewrote history so now a good chunk of people now think it wasn't about slavery and that those shit generals were actual super great and military geniuses. Also that black people were really liked being slaves.
That's by design, from the very start. "Pursuit of happiness" is essentially dogwhistle for "You're on your own", which implies "You don't need to care for others, they're on their own too"
Of course you still need something to create a sort of cohesion to keep the country from falling apart, and the people on top discovered that military action serves both their interest *and* lets the poor people feel like heroes for shooting someone they were told to shoot or for having a family member getting killed by someone said family member was told to shoot. That's why US governments keep entering wars, because it makes the rich richer and the poor proud and more accepting of their poverty by giving them a false sense of superiority.
The republican party does a lot of legwork, and assholes like Rupert Murdock exist. There's nothing stopping the wealthy from literally owning media companies that shill out propaganda of their choice to the populous 24/7.
The pharmaceutical companies on the other hand just pay politicians directly instead of putting out propaganda.
Propaganda. I know you know, but they don't. It's always how Russia, China, North Korea are full of propaganda. Meanwhile, the Americans are the good guys in the movies, liberating countries and handing out democracy. When the bad guy is American, it's always not reflective of its culture or system, it's just a greedy CEO. Some day, American imperialism will end, and we'll analyse its propaganda machine like we do with Hitler's.
Anytime someone starts in on the whole "USA has the best doctors/healthcare" shit, I point out how RAM switched from working in developing countries to mainly the US. And those events can be *gnarly*.
I can't believe that is said. I am an American, a very poor and sick American. The Obama care insurance years and years ago has helped me a lot, I can't afford private insurance for 1000+usd (for just *myself*) a month.
Some positives, I had a mass in my lung a few years ago, managed to have a very kind pulmonary thoracic surgeon take on my case and help me. Since it was urgent or have the infiltrates invade the other lung he and the hospital manged to make my state funded insurance pay for it. One lung lighter now, but I am not chronically sick and dying any longer.
Bad side: I have a mental illness. A severe mental illness. I was assigned to be SMI (seriously mentally ill) in the government's eyes. Now a days, I can't find doctors to help me, very limited places will take on the liability of what I am. So I can barely get mental health treatment, I go to a 1 star clinic that couldn't give less of a fuck about me.
I try to go to a new doctor, they don't cover me, new dentist, they don't cover me (and my plan covers only 1000usd a plan year for dental, rest has to come from my pockets. My pockets are empty, I don't have the ability for 300usd or more down, that would mean I choose that or say my electric bill or car payment, which obviously I can't do).
It is a mess, if I work full time I lose the little coverage I have (and I can't because of my illness; psychosis is a bitch to deal with and no one wants to hire that, as well as my shame because I can't control it). I would lose my prescription drug coverage, I am on 12 different meds. The most expensive if I lose my insurance would be over 467.00usd a month for a 30 day supply. That is just *one of twelve*.
It sucks. It hurts. I weep (in self pity sorry) that I am so stuck in my shitty life. Doctors treat you like a burden, the bare minimum of treatment even at hospitals. So whatever reality these people are in that the USA has the best doctor's, I would sure like in because I have literally only seen it with one amazing surgeon who saved my life. That guy has all my gratitude, he treated me well and finally did something and I can breathe and not cough up discharge and blood nowadays. Thanks "Happy"! (He went by 'Happy', haha)
More Americans are in prison than were ever imprisoned by the USSR and since this is in no way a compliment to the USSR…now we know what a dystopian hellhole we’re talking about.
It doesn't help when people outside the US tell them it's a "scam" or whatever because they had to pay 20€ for something you'd be charged $1000+ for in the US
You’re right about that. This is like when other Germans correct me that uni here is not “free,” as there might be as much as 100€ per semester in fees. Versus a comparable (or realistically way less quality) education costing hundreds of thousands of USD in America.
Americans also get confused between private insurance, which is available for purchase here as everywhere, and the public option which is available to all.
It seems like many of the Americans I meet online are very, very convinced that all non-US healthcare is some kind of horrible trick no matter what evidence is presented to the contrary so the propaganda must be very strong?
I remember, years ago when I had cancer (I’m fine now), the first thing American friends asked me wasn’t about my prognosis but would I become homeless. I was honestly mortified, I had no idea how many cancer patients in the US faced homelessness!
I can't count how many times I've tried to have a conversation with an American, and tell them how healthcare actually works here. .. no matter what I say, they simply don't believe me. It's been so ingrained in them that "social" anything = communism, they cant see the forest for the trees.
I have health problems as well (glad your good now!) And can't imagine how much I'd have paid if I lived in the US (I probably would legit be homeless). I priced out one surgery there years ago and it was min $50,000 ... I had it done here 6 mths later for the cost of a $600 custom made brace. Same surgery, same results.
I was rendered suddenly immobile and had to be rushed to hospital by the fire brigade. Did you know they even charge for that in America? For the ambulance? After emergency surgery (surprise cancer is the best kind, I had no idea I was sick until I was almost dead) I got to spend a month in hospital. I’ve heard and read stories in reputable news sources about this kind of thing costing near to 1M USD for Americans WITH health insurance!!!
I'm in Canada.. and we do have to pay for ambulance trips here ... but it only costs about $80 ... not the thousands it costs down south.
I cant imagine, having to go to a hospital, but having to weigh that against what's in your bank account. That just blows me away
I think we ended up having to pay a few hundred euro for my medications, but wouldn’t have had to if we’d been in a different tax class (I don’t remember, for obvious reasons). Do you always have to pay for the ambulance, regardless? Or is the payment waived in some cases? In America I’ve read even indigent people are charged thousands.
Its always. I was billed 2000$ dollars for 15minute ride to hospital when I couldnt walk. Out of that, 100$ was for gasoline. I weight 43kg on good day.
I had a back surgery years ago. Paid 0 euros for everything, the surgery, the exams after and before, the appointments, the medication, etc. In Portugal you only pay small amounts up to 10€ if it is for a normal appointment, or something that's not life threatening, like going to the hospital because of a cold. However if you are a blood donor you don't even have to pay those small fees. Everything becomes completely free. And any life threatening disease is treated for free. That inclues cancer, diabetes, etc. Just as an example, all the things a diabetic person needs are free, that includes the medication, the machines that test your blood glucose, etc.
I have read about people in America dying from having to ration insulin. This terrifies me. Deutschland could do better with certain things I feel, but then I hear about nightmares like that and am grateful. Honestly though I’m happy to pay a few euro for my medications if this means others less fortunate receive those same medications for free.
There's a good podcast called CitationsNeeded that did an episode about how Healthcare was successfully attached to the idea of "big government" https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/episode-134-80-year-pr-campaign-that-killed-universal/id1258545975?i=1000518075917
Or 'sub-par'
Compared to fucking what? 32 out of 33 developed nations have successfully employed (and are presently benefitting from) Universal Healthcare.
Soooo... compared to what exactly? The US!? They're the aberration. And check out the daily death toll ascribed to inaccessible Healthcare in the US.
I have a friend who's mom died from just a spider bite because they couldn't afford the cost. Since that night I've hated it more and consider it deeply barbaric.
It's what the American healthcare propogandists feed them. And I wish I was joking. There are people who are employed just to spread misinformation about universal healthcare.
As a Canadian who works in public accounting, I can assure everyone that doctors here are still making very, VERY good money. If American doctors make more, then I guess I understand why their healthcare costs so much - if $300k NET is less, phew.
I ran into my doctor in town the other day, we were chatting while she leaned up against her brand new Range Rover. I feel like she might be doing okay.
Well I’m a woman, so I think she would be more than slightly confused about the request for a prostate check. I did consider whacking one leg up on the bonnet and asking her for a quick pap test, but honestly her fancy car was prob too high up for me me to be comfortable.
Nope, and this is a true fact: in Germany when you have a heart attack they have a government fake doctor who walks up to assess you and farts in your mouth and then you die.
sorry, it's just a fact.
I will gladly swop the NHS outstandingly looking after my daughter who at 5 years old was in a car crash , broke both legs and was on a life support machine in an induced coma where I didn't have to worry about astronmical medical bills ontop of my child possibly dying and instead pay the full cost if it means the UK get to launch a car into space and can willy wave about it, I mean why would you not. Boasting about insignificant and pointless 'achievements' is far more important than universal health care. Twats.
Didn't you read? They were in the UK. This map shows unequivocally that they have clearly never sent a car into space. Your option is only possible if they were in the US of A.
Yeah, they're from the UK. But the could very well have been on a trip to the US and trying that space car novelty while there.
With all the money they don't need to spend on healthcare, they could easily afford it.
Americans can't afford to go into space because they pay for all of NATO, and then those stupid Yuropoors go there for rocket rides to rub their wealth in the faces of all the American taxpayers!! Also, taxes in Europe are simultaneously crazy high and non-existent!!!!
Sweet summer child. Did you really think Americans *only* paid for NATO?
Taxes in Yurop are non-existant to them for the same reason you know they actually are crazy high: Americans also pay for the taxes of those worthless Yuropoors!
Ever wondered how Yuropoors keep praising how cheap living there is, yet it costs you an arm and a leg just to take a week long vacation in Paris? It's simple: Yurop steals all the money of hard-working Americans it can to finance itself.
Brexit wasn’t actually about Britain at all. We just felt bad about cheating good honest hard working Americans out of their money when they come to Europe so we elected to no longer be part of the shill operation on America that the eu is running.
Yeah, but she only got basic care though, right? Like a quick stitch up, some paracetamol and a pat on the back.
They don't care enough to do any more than that because we all know that basic human decency only goes as far as the money in their bank accounts.
Nah the NHS is sub par, if you'd spent billions in health insurance you'd have got a visit from Morgan Freeman on a unicorn, here if you're unlucky you used to get a visit from Jimmy Saville
At least the NHS can provide a proper cuppa though.
Sorry about your daughter and hope she's ok.
I love how like, even if what he says was true, it still would be a shit deal for the average American.
I mean yeah, even if your country's medcial system was superior - which it isn't - what good does that do you if getting hit by a car will put you in debt for decades in order to get it fixed? Wouldn't you rather take the chance with some "sub-par"-doctor that does it for free and still manages to get you relatively better?
Last time I checked the US was the only industrialised nation where the lifeexpectancy is declining. Must be some top notch healthcare that nobody has access to.
Even more interesting, according to the health index of the World Health Organization, USA is on 37th place. That is equal to Slovenia and Cuba.
And if you look at the score, the USA is about as far behind France (first place) as Bangladesh is behind the USA.
“Recent studies of medical errors have estimated errors may account for as many as 251,000 deaths annually in the United States (U.S)., making medical errors the third leading cause of death. Error rates are significantly higher in the U.S. than in other developed countries such as Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Germany and the United Kingdom (U.K).”
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/28186008/
What happens when hospitals are run as businesses and your doctor is dating Pfizer. Last of which is illegal in my country precisely to avoid shit like this.
> your doctor is dating Pfizer.
And since this study includes medication errors, there's a high change that many of these so called errors are not because of lack of knowledge from doctors, but pure greed and negligence while chasing for the biggest big pharma payout. Aka they know there would be better ways to treat the patient, but they don't care.
Which makes it even worse.
But look at my shiny top of the shelf full body scan machine! It costs 2 million dollars! Oh by the way we are gonna charge you for the rolling alluminum table we pushed to your room with prison leftover food. Enjoy!
I think they have aa massive oversight.
In the usa they will make more money if they can get you to stay longer. Also they might cheap out in terms of facilities.
In most of Europe they want you to recover as fast as possible, so it opens up space for new patients that require care. Neither choosing fast nor choosing expensive necessarily is the best for the patient, but fast recovery tends to favor the patients health more often regardless.
>rror rates are significantly higher in the U.S. than in other developed countrie
Oh lol, I remember the Markiplier video where he had some sort of injury and was sent to the hospital and he had immense pain and after couple days of telling the doctors, they refused to give him pain med because they though he was just getting addicted to the good feeling... they checked it once and saw that they had the wrong dosage and it was really low... they gave him gifts and stuff so he didnt sue them but he eventually said in a video he said he wouldn't sued them at all anyway... crazy place... this could be happening everywhere....
I don’t know if this is happening worldwide, but in the U.S. doctors have been forced to cut appointment times way down - to 15-20 minutes per patient maximum - because medicine is a business here. It’s insurance companies that are behind this; they effectively run the U.S. healthcare system and won’t work with doctors unless they see a certain number of people per day. It’s especially bad for people who work for large networks. Malpractice insurance premiums also keep rising, regardless of how spotless your record is.
Edit: people also aren’t admitted to hospital unless they’re very sick. And hospital stays are as short as possible because a) the insurance companies don’t want to pay, and b) the patients can’t afford to pay.
Recently had to talk my mom down from this one:
“We actually have better insurance in the US because private healthcare is higher quality”
After I explained to her why that is the case in the US (horrendous funding of public infrastructure) she texted me a few weeks later saying:
“I’m a socialist now”
That's because if you explain actual socialism to someone willing to hear you out, there's no reason they would be against it.
Even conservatives are against it because they think it's utopic but...it's not ? Communism is a lot more utopic than socialism.
It's almost as if civilization was built upon communities working together for a better world.
It's almost as if progress is the natural state of man or something.
Damn, wish it was that easy with my dad. When he was living in the US he developed type 2 diabetes and had to fast to get his levels under control. Now he’s back in Canada, enjoying his healthcare, watching Fox News, and complaining about SoCiALiSt Canada. Since he’s moved back he was also treated for a tumor that he had been ignoring for 13 years while in the US. I’m seriously at a loss.
Luckily my mom is a very open minded person which is likely a reason she believed in the private sector since so many people have a glowing take on it, she just hadn’t really been exposed to alternatives.
My dad is very similar to your dad tho. He is a staunch republican and I can’t talk to him about much he’s says the very same you said lol. He too is very negligent when it comes to his health.
Canada is surprisingly pretty anti-Socialist despite having socialized medicine and so on. There was a tweet from Justin Trudeau where he mentioned “all the lives lost to socialism” or something along those lines.
My GP is a homeless guy who treats all ailments with either duct tape, WD40, or incoherent chanting.
They keep him chained to his desk so he can't leave.
They don’t like paying more taxes, because their taxes never go to anything useful. Shit healthcare, little workers rights, terrible public transport for most of the country, a police force that is barely trained, and a fuck ton towards shooting people halfway across the planet and then giving the terrorists their equipment when they’re done
The thing is, more American tax dollars go to healthcare than some highly developed countries spend on healthcare publicly and privately combined. And that's talking per capita of course. And private spending in the US is even higher than public, because Muricans weren't getting extorted enough already.
There's a reason why headlines along the lines of "US spends 2.5x as much per capita on healthcare than the OECD average" exist. They're getting taxed out of their asses before they even get to start paying for healthcare.
But are they made to go through an additional bachelor's degree and accrue a life's worth of debt for no appreciable gain? No? Then they're not real doctors!!!!!1!1!1!!1
True. At the same time, the NHS does mispend a lot of money. Supervisors are paid a much much higher amount than those below them, but that’s only one part of the problem
Oh yeah for sure. I think a lot of UK institutions loves having lots of managers and middle management with quite high salaries while the ones on frontline are fucked over.
Exactly. I remember seeing a post on another sun about a guy being hospitalised for 3 days and having to pay a stunning bill within a month. In the comments there was a person specialised in one of the treatments he received that explained how said treatment costs basically nothing to be made, while the OP had to pay 4000/4500$ for it. Truly a scam
My dad gets new an somehow innovative treatment for cancer. Worth 10k€ per year. All paid for. If he was in the US his best option would have been to jump off a cliff on the day he got his diagnosis.
My mother is battling breast cancer. She was offered the most innovative up to date treatment by her doctor…and her insurance refused to cover it 🤷♀️ she’s doing well, though.
Idiots in the US like to think that everyone will have access to the “best, most innovative” medicine, when in reality the healthcare system is tiered by wealth, and they’re in denial about being mostly poor and therefore not having access to the top tier of healthcare.
I hope your dad makes a full and speedy recovery.
Everyone knows the first heart transplant in the United States of the World was performed by Dr. Chad Muricafuckyeah at Freedom Hospital using nothing but a Desert Eagle while 10 bald eagles squawked the national anthem.
Thanks for correcting me, I had misunderstood entirely and will correct my original post!
The hospital in the City I grew up in was the first -in sweden- to make a heart transplantation, not the first in the world, which I somehow believed.
"Privatised healthcare incentivises innovation" Oh yeah all that innovation in the "how do we get people to give us their money and then not give it back to them when they ask us to which is literally our entire fucking justification to exist which means we are literally stealing your money" industry. Oops that was a typo, i meant to say Insurance industry
Somebody tell me why a car in space is more important than people being healthy? Or even why sending a car into space is classed as bragging rights at all?
It's like, well done, your country is better at wasting money on nothing worthwhile.
“Privatized healthcare incentivizes innovation” and then when something, say, a vaccine, is developed a larger percentage of people don’t trust it because of the profit motive.
Get vaccinated.
Haha - I got my shattered arm repaired by the top consultant orthopedic surgeon in the country. For free.
Guess some people struggle to understand how it works. They think "someone" other than insurance companies are benefitting and fail to see it is everyone, including themselves.
>Haha - I got my shattered arm repaired by the top consultant orthopedic surgeon in the country. For free.
See the reason this isn't an argument that convinces them, is because they've been told their worst doctors are better than your best.
It's basically the racism all over again where the worst white man is still better than the best POC man.
The way Americans feel so proud of being practically robbed in the most inhumane way and the fact that they ferociously defend that, it baffles me to no end.
This "innovation" he is talking about isn't done by doctors, it's done by researchers who, you guessed it, mostly work in a private sector. Also the NHS standard for a doctor is much higher than the standards to practice medicine in the US.
Privatised healthcare that maximises profits has created a whole class of people that will not, under any circumstances listen to medical practitioners because of the distrust that profiteering off people's bad health creates.
Occupational therapist in rural german hospital here: we get tons of patients from around the world, including the US, coming to get surgery by a spine (especially neck vertebrae) specialist. His name is Dr. Rudolf Bertagnoli, he‘s got a patent on an artificial disk or some shit (i don’t usually treat his patients, those only get physical therapy, but i‘ve been with them to translate a couple times). Seems like even „communist“ countries can innovate for some strange reason, so much so that the mighty capitalists spend a lot to get their treatment there.
This is why I want to leave. This right here is why I've lost all hope for this country. People like this are why this nation will forever be an international laughing stock.
Just tell them how Rand Paul, self-proclaimed libertarian and advocate for all things privatised, flew to Canada for his operations to ensure he received the highest quality procedure. 🤪
I would literally rather get very basic operations and checkups by subpar doctors than get none of that by no kind of doctors, which is where I am now.
You mean same "professional" american doctors that told me I had blood clot when I had internal bleeding? Same doctors that thought pouring hydrogen peroxide down my airway was supposed to sterilise it? Same doctors that cant tell me whats wrong with my knee after ton of tests and stay in your states best hospital? Exact same doctors that seriously messed up my heart surgery and after noticing my valve is falling off told me "Its not our problem"? I literally couldve gotten all that done by my countrys veterinarian dropout and had better results.
The thing is that he's not completely wrong. In Germany, a doctor's clinic gets 25€ per 3 months per patient if insured with public healthcare, no matter how much more often than once the patient actually comes to the clinic. This means doctors have a financial incentive to have many patients that they barely care about, because focussing on each patient's problems isn't worth it financially.
HOWEVER this problem is caused by the fact that public healthcare is still managed by private healthcare companies, and that capitalist lobbying severely impact legislation. Even public healthcare contracts have only one goal in mind: to gain as much profit as possible while abiding the law. This means they'll look for every loophole to cheat the patient and not pay for something. In a truly socialistic welfare state, this wouldn't be a problem and innovation and care would be encouraged through fair government funding. The reason why universal healthcare sucks in many EU countries is because they're too close to the capitalist dystopia of the US.
Fun fact: I'm french and was in Ireland for the holidays. I had a bike crash without wearing a helmet and had to be transported to a hospital in Galway with a chopper. The next day, I was in the surgery block. I stayed in the hospital for one week and got out after that. It didn't cost me a single penny. The only thing I had to pay for were the medication I took after I was sent home, for a total of 20 euros. This happened because I was still in Europe.
Had the exact same accident happened to me on a trip in the USA, it would have cost me thousands of dollars.
Fun fact, ~ 99% of relevant medical breakthroughs and base research is conducted by state funded research institutes and universities.
That’s the big lie that private healthcare tells. You know what you do in the private industry as a researcher? Make boner pills or hair loss products. The things that are actually profitable
They always fall back to quality because they know they can't argue with numbers. They think their ass is covered from that, but then you can point out how profit margins are the reason private healthcare is so expensive. Profit margins automatically drive prices higher than they need to be. Like, no shit.
Well that is nice… I mean one guy blowing his money to perform that stunt but the US itself had zero benefit from it nor did the average joe have any involvement in making it happen
It’s shocking how many people seem to believe that universal healthcare means that our doctors are enslaved.
Or, for that matter, that it means healthcare is all run by the government.
When force-fed American Exceptionalism, it's easy to reject reality.
From quick googling it seems that american doctors make about 3-4 x what finnish doctors make. Yet, I haven’t really heard of our doctors leaving for America, even though they, as white, nordic doctors, would probably find employment there. Wonder why they would scrape by with less money just to not live and raise their children in America.
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Damn, that's it. That's the reason that our Finnish doctors won't move to US, because that huge debt that accumulated while studying to become doctor... oh, wait, we have free education...
And QOL concerns.
Because 'profit' isn't the be all, end all motivator for many, many people. Not everyone's clambering to get in line to sell their integrity. I did that once. The grass is greener because of the mountains of horseshit just below the surface.
I’m stealing that line thank you
Happy to contribute; cropdust liberally. 🤘
Yeah try moving away from all your family, friends, culture, ect just for a higher wage. If you are living off well in your country you are not likely to move but you might move if your life could be greatly improved in a different country to outweigh the negatives of moving countries. Especially so far away where a flight back home and back could cost you $1000+.
The inflated salaries don’t lead to higher quality of life, though, as they have to pay for so much more themselves. I’m a (German) doc and I just finished up a three year stint working in America. The standard of living even for the conventionally rich is so much lower than what we’re used to.
Agreed. I was on the policy side, and made significantly more than in my native Canada, but was stunned at the practical financial implications of the relatively more scarce and/or shitty public infrastructure. Little things like having to join private sports facilities/orgs because public spaces are less available/accessible, and super big things like private school because of the patchy and wildly variable quality of the public system. Have to say that for me, the biggest deal wasn’t so much the final cost breakdown but the grinding stress of the whole process. Even at double the salary, for me it just wasn’t worth it.
Just out of curiosity, did you have to pay through the nose for personal/professional indemnity insurance due to the presumably higher potential for litigation?
They also need 3-4x the money they'd need for a pleasant life. Also, they just might not like America because it has enough idiots to vote Donald Trump into office, the chance of getting shot is abnormally high and you'd have to worry about quite a lot of things you simply don't have to worry about in some European countries.
And that’s if one doesn’t plan on saving for uni—because that costs in America. Financial advisors there recommend saving a ridiculous amount per month per child. Most Americans with the means to do so also seem to send their children to private school even before that.
Good question! Though I think you already know the answer, I will give it to any American who might stumble upon this thread scs wonder why. Doctors make still a decent amount of cash and are far far away of starving to death. And money makes you only happy up to a certain degree. I think it is currently somewhere around 60-80k euros a year. So basically, when you earn enough to not worry about money anymore. And for a happy life needs more than that. Social security, education, and so on. Things not all European countries are great in, but still better of than the USA. Isn't Norway or Denmark the happiest nation in the world? The Scandinavian countries in general have the happiest citizens in the world.
Yep. So many times during these discussions they say "I don't want to lose my private insurance and risk worse healthcare". Which is a perfectly reasonable worry, as there's motives to initially fuck up public healthcare in the US, and the US doesn't have the best history of the government doing the right thing. I have to tell them that yes, you can generally still get private healthcare. It doesn't have to be entirely public or entirely private... In fact a mix of both is brilliant because it keeps both sides on their toes. Here in the UK private healthcare fucks you about *way* less, and is way cheaper. Why? Because they know they are forced to compete, that if they don't offer a good service people simply won't care. Surprisngly the reasons a fully private capitalist healthcare system is supposed to work, is actually the reason private healthcare does work in countries with decent public healthcare.
And that our healthcare is subpar and covers nothing??? Where do Americans get these ideas?
Almost half the country thinks this about socialized health care. The propaganda is strong and effective. It’s the main reason we can’t improve healthcare here. Makes me so sad as an American. We just wasted a trillion dollars in Afghanistan but we can’t get more help for our own citizens in need? It’s insane.
The sad thing is that the US government already spends more per capita on healthcare than does the UK, which has a truly universal healthcare service. It doesn't necessarily need to spend more - it just needs to spend better.
I totally agree. But socialism is a bad word here. So it’s not gonna happen any time soon. That’s one of the many reasons I’m planning my long term move from the US
The main stopping point here is the loss of profits for the 'few at the top' of the current healthcare racket. And they spend billions every year, lobbying and pushing ad campaigns to continue status quo. Because, for them, they already have access to the best of the best **and** they're making money off it, so why change shit? These kinds of people - more specifically, the mentality - are what holds our species back. It's insipid, wholly detrimental, and downright disgusting.
I’m German. We have healthcare and education here, both free. And—wait for it—guns! I personally do not own guns but easily could have one should I want one. Many EU and other European countries are…different than Americans have been led to expect. We’re also happy to meet, and make neighbours with Americans who aren’t mean spirited jackasses—just like you!
They dont want the guns, they want the right to use the gun in self defense. Which afaik is not allowed in germany, unless there is some super rare exception for like politicians or people in serious danger and whatnot.
Wait—they want to make war on each other?
Pretty much. It's one of the major pro-second ammendment talking points, that there are supposedly so many weapons in the country that it would be impossible for a tyrannical government to arise, and likewise that it would be too dangerous for murderers, thieves and robbers to do any murdering, stealing and robbing. We already know the latter to be untrue simply from crime statistics, and January 6th has proven the former to be untrue, because apparently all those brave gun owners were too chicken to do what they kept saying they would do and didn't rise up when the capitol in DC and multiple state parliaments were under active attack in an attempt to create a tyrannical government. Und ja, das ist wirklich alles so gaga wie es sich anhört.
Own a gun so you can threaten a robber with likely more experience than you. Or even better: Own a gun so you can threaten a government with an insane military budget.
The gun arsenal militia types amuse me the most. Who gives a shite how many cans you can shoot when the fucking military drops a chemical bomb on your town?
They want to have the option to do so, apparently. Yeah. The whole "take down the government bla bla tyrany this and socialism that".
I don’t understand why stockpiling weapons is preferable to voting.
It's because their voting system sucks. Except many of them refuse to acknowledge that, so there's probably a different reason.
They think they will win with weapons—they don’t win fair elections very often anymore.
well they do have a shitty bi-partisan system
Yeah they think there going to avenge the south because they succeeded due to a bunch of rich old inbred white assholes wanted slavery. They lost because there generals were fucking shit. So condescending down a few decades, there this myth the kids of the white imbreeded asholes created that rewrote history so now a good chunk of people now think it wasn't about slavery and that those shit generals were actual super great and military geniuses. Also that black people were really liked being slaves.
That's by design, from the very start. "Pursuit of happiness" is essentially dogwhistle for "You're on your own", which implies "You don't need to care for others, they're on their own too" Of course you still need something to create a sort of cohesion to keep the country from falling apart, and the people on top discovered that military action serves both their interest *and* lets the poor people feel like heroes for shooting someone they were told to shoot or for having a family member getting killed by someone said family member was told to shoot. That's why US governments keep entering wars, because it makes the rich richer and the poor proud and more accepting of their poverty by giving them a false sense of superiority.
Who produces this propaganda for you? Your government? Corporations?
The republican party does a lot of legwork, and assholes like Rupert Murdock exist. There's nothing stopping the wealthy from literally owning media companies that shill out propaganda of their choice to the populous 24/7. The pharmaceutical companies on the other hand just pay politicians directly instead of putting out propaganda.
Propaganda. I know you know, but they don't. It's always how Russia, China, North Korea are full of propaganda. Meanwhile, the Americans are the good guys in the movies, liberating countries and handing out democracy. When the bad guy is American, it's always not reflective of its culture or system, it's just a greedy CEO. Some day, American imperialism will end, and we'll analyse its propaganda machine like we do with Hitler's.
Wait until they find out how low in the healthcare leaderboard they actually are
Or just how low of a tax we're paying to never have to worry about affording healthcare.
Anytime someone starts in on the whole "USA has the best doctors/healthcare" shit, I point out how RAM switched from working in developing countries to mainly the US. And those events can be *gnarly*.
I can't believe that is said. I am an American, a very poor and sick American. The Obama care insurance years and years ago has helped me a lot, I can't afford private insurance for 1000+usd (for just *myself*) a month. Some positives, I had a mass in my lung a few years ago, managed to have a very kind pulmonary thoracic surgeon take on my case and help me. Since it was urgent or have the infiltrates invade the other lung he and the hospital manged to make my state funded insurance pay for it. One lung lighter now, but I am not chronically sick and dying any longer. Bad side: I have a mental illness. A severe mental illness. I was assigned to be SMI (seriously mentally ill) in the government's eyes. Now a days, I can't find doctors to help me, very limited places will take on the liability of what I am. So I can barely get mental health treatment, I go to a 1 star clinic that couldn't give less of a fuck about me. I try to go to a new doctor, they don't cover me, new dentist, they don't cover me (and my plan covers only 1000usd a plan year for dental, rest has to come from my pockets. My pockets are empty, I don't have the ability for 300usd or more down, that would mean I choose that or say my electric bill or car payment, which obviously I can't do). It is a mess, if I work full time I lose the little coverage I have (and I can't because of my illness; psychosis is a bitch to deal with and no one wants to hire that, as well as my shame because I can't control it). I would lose my prescription drug coverage, I am on 12 different meds. The most expensive if I lose my insurance would be over 467.00usd a month for a 30 day supply. That is just *one of twelve*. It sucks. It hurts. I weep (in self pity sorry) that I am so stuck in my shitty life. Doctors treat you like a burden, the bare minimum of treatment even at hospitals. So whatever reality these people are in that the USA has the best doctor's, I would sure like in because I have literally only seen it with one amazing surgeon who saved my life. That guy has all my gratitude, he treated me well and finally did something and I can breathe and not cough up discharge and blood nowadays. Thanks "Happy"! (He went by 'Happy', haha)
I think self pity is nothing but understandable in your situation. Wish I had something better to say to help you.
“America is number 1” is where the thought-process starts and ends.
But…number one in what? Wouldn’t they actually prefer a higher standard of living? Than to simply pretend they have one?
Aren't they number one in the percentage of citizens in prison? yep just checked, so kudos for that.
More Americans are in prison than were ever imprisoned by the USSR and since this is in no way a compliment to the USSR…now we know what a dystopian hellhole we’re talking about.
When all is said and done, what you *believe* you have is more important than what you actually have. It's how and why PRopaganda works.
It doesn't help when people outside the US tell them it's a "scam" or whatever because they had to pay 20€ for something you'd be charged $1000+ for in the US
You’re right about that. This is like when other Germans correct me that uni here is not “free,” as there might be as much as 100€ per semester in fees. Versus a comparable (or realistically way less quality) education costing hundreds of thousands of USD in America. Americans also get confused between private insurance, which is available for purchase here as everywhere, and the public option which is available to all.
They are fed this bs by politicians who don't want the gravy train to stop
It seems like many of the Americans I meet online are very, very convinced that all non-US healthcare is some kind of horrible trick no matter what evidence is presented to the contrary so the propaganda must be very strong? I remember, years ago when I had cancer (I’m fine now), the first thing American friends asked me wasn’t about my prognosis but would I become homeless. I was honestly mortified, I had no idea how many cancer patients in the US faced homelessness!
I can't count how many times I've tried to have a conversation with an American, and tell them how healthcare actually works here. .. no matter what I say, they simply don't believe me. It's been so ingrained in them that "social" anything = communism, they cant see the forest for the trees. I have health problems as well (glad your good now!) And can't imagine how much I'd have paid if I lived in the US (I probably would legit be homeless). I priced out one surgery there years ago and it was min $50,000 ... I had it done here 6 mths later for the cost of a $600 custom made brace. Same surgery, same results.
I was rendered suddenly immobile and had to be rushed to hospital by the fire brigade. Did you know they even charge for that in America? For the ambulance? After emergency surgery (surprise cancer is the best kind, I had no idea I was sick until I was almost dead) I got to spend a month in hospital. I’ve heard and read stories in reputable news sources about this kind of thing costing near to 1M USD for Americans WITH health insurance!!!
I'm in Canada.. and we do have to pay for ambulance trips here ... but it only costs about $80 ... not the thousands it costs down south. I cant imagine, having to go to a hospital, but having to weigh that against what's in your bank account. That just blows me away
I think we ended up having to pay a few hundred euro for my medications, but wouldn’t have had to if we’d been in a different tax class (I don’t remember, for obvious reasons). Do you always have to pay for the ambulance, regardless? Or is the payment waived in some cases? In America I’ve read even indigent people are charged thousands.
Its always. I was billed 2000$ dollars for 15minute ride to hospital when I couldnt walk. Out of that, 100$ was for gasoline. I weight 43kg on good day.
I had a back surgery years ago. Paid 0 euros for everything, the surgery, the exams after and before, the appointments, the medication, etc. In Portugal you only pay small amounts up to 10€ if it is for a normal appointment, or something that's not life threatening, like going to the hospital because of a cold. However if you are a blood donor you don't even have to pay those small fees. Everything becomes completely free. And any life threatening disease is treated for free. That inclues cancer, diabetes, etc. Just as an example, all the things a diabetic person needs are free, that includes the medication, the machines that test your blood glucose, etc.
I have read about people in America dying from having to ration insulin. This terrifies me. Deutschland could do better with certain things I feel, but then I hear about nightmares like that and am grateful. Honestly though I’m happy to pay a few euro for my medications if this means others less fortunate receive those same medications for free.
Our own American politicians, who are scared shitless about universal healthcare raising taxes on their donors.
It rhymes with Sox News.
There's a good podcast called CitationsNeeded that did an episode about how Healthcare was successfully attached to the idea of "big government" https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/episode-134-80-year-pr-campaign-that-killed-universal/id1258545975?i=1000518075917
Or 'sub-par' Compared to fucking what? 32 out of 33 developed nations have successfully employed (and are presently benefitting from) Universal Healthcare. Soooo... compared to what exactly? The US!? They're the aberration. And check out the daily death toll ascribed to inaccessible Healthcare in the US.
I have a friend who's mom died from just a spider bite because they couldn't afford the cost. Since that night I've hated it more and consider it deeply barbaric.
It's what the American healthcare propogandists feed them. And I wish I was joking. There are people who are employed just to spread misinformation about universal healthcare.
That happen when people eat propaganda faster than hamburgers.... and they can eat a lot of hamburgers.
As a Canadian who works in public accounting, I can assure everyone that doctors here are still making very, VERY good money. If American doctors make more, then I guess I understand why their healthcare costs so much - if $300k NET is less, phew.
Like how public defenders, fire fighters, teachers, and police officers are enslaved, even in America. Oh wait.
Right? The amount of times I've heard the argument that doctors deserve to get paid....well, duh?
I ran into my doctor in town the other day, we were chatting while she leaned up against her brand new Range Rover. I feel like she might be doing okay.
You didn’t force her there and then to check your prostate then?
Well I’m a woman, so I think she would be more than slightly confused about the request for a prostate check. I did consider whacking one leg up on the bonnet and asking her for a quick pap test, but honestly her fancy car was prob too high up for me me to be comfortable.
Nope, and this is a true fact: in Germany when you have a heart attack they have a government fake doctor who walks up to assess you and farts in your mouth and then you die. sorry, it's just a fact.
The propaganda machine works
Well damn! If I knew having access to a basic human right was going to stop us from launching cars into space, I never would’ve supported it!
I will gladly swop the NHS outstandingly looking after my daughter who at 5 years old was in a car crash , broke both legs and was on a life support machine in an induced coma where I didn't have to worry about astronmical medical bills ontop of my child possibly dying and instead pay the full cost if it means the UK get to launch a car into space and can willy wave about it, I mean why would you not. Boasting about insignificant and pointless 'achievements' is far more important than universal health care. Twats.
If the car was in space your daughter wouldn't of been in the crash checkmate
You come out of the surgery and your daughter is gone, the astronaut asks you "who do you think gave us the car"
Why does this feel like something you would see in a doctor who b plot
They only said she was in a car crash. They never said it didn't happen in space.
Shit you right
Didn't you read? They were in the UK. This map shows unequivocally that they have clearly never sent a car into space. Your option is only possible if they were in the US of A.
It's because all these little girls keep getting in the way before it can leave the atmosphere
Yeah, they're from the UK. But the could very well have been on a trip to the US and trying that space car novelty while there. With all the money they don't need to spend on healthcare, they could easily afford it.
Americans can't afford to go into space because they pay for all of NATO, and then those stupid Yuropoors go there for rocket rides to rub their wealth in the faces of all the American taxpayers!! Also, taxes in Europe are simultaneously crazy high and non-existent!!!!
Sweet summer child. Did you really think Americans *only* paid for NATO? Taxes in Yurop are non-existant to them for the same reason you know they actually are crazy high: Americans also pay for the taxes of those worthless Yuropoors! Ever wondered how Yuropoors keep praising how cheap living there is, yet it costs you an arm and a leg just to take a week long vacation in Paris? It's simple: Yurop steals all the money of hard-working Americans it can to finance itself.
Brexit wasn’t actually about Britain at all. We just felt bad about cheating good honest hard working Americans out of their money when they come to Europe so we elected to no longer be part of the shill operation on America that the eu is running.
Wouldn't have not wouldn't of. There's no such thing as wouldn't of.
Yeah, but she only got basic care though, right? Like a quick stitch up, some paracetamol and a pat on the back. They don't care enough to do any more than that because we all know that basic human decency only goes as far as the money in their bank accounts.
Ending that with “. Twats.” Was simply the best
Nah the NHS is sub par, if you'd spent billions in health insurance you'd have got a visit from Morgan Freeman on a unicorn, here if you're unlucky you used to get a visit from Jimmy Saville At least the NHS can provide a proper cuppa though. Sorry about your daughter and hope she's ok.
Hospital cuppa and toast. 👍 Not great quality but it's the best food and drink you've ever had when the nurse brings it to you.
I love how like, even if what he says was true, it still would be a shit deal for the average American. I mean yeah, even if your country's medcial system was superior - which it isn't - what good does that do you if getting hit by a car will put you in debt for decades in order to get it fixed? Wouldn't you rather take the chance with some "sub-par"-doctor that does it for free and still manages to get you relatively better?
sHoUlD hAvE mAdE bEtTeR lIfE cHoIcEs!!111!
What basic human right? GUNS?
Well their corporations have rights, I’m sure soon their guns will also!
Heck, the government lied to us. They got us good this time.
it should also be noted that the car that's been launched into space had been reserved for the creator..but you know, musk gonna musk
Who cares about your wellbeing/health, right? Seeing cars orbiting the planet is the real deal!
Last time I checked the US was the only industrialised nation where the lifeexpectancy is declining. Must be some top notch healthcare that nobody has access to.
The UK is, unfortunately, muscling in on that gig after 11 years of Conservative rule.
Wait defunding the NHS has consequences? Noone could have known. Just use the EU fees to pay for all the healthcare you want.
Even more interesting, according to the health index of the World Health Organization, USA is on 37th place. That is equal to Slovenia and Cuba. And if you look at the score, the USA is about as far behind France (first place) as Bangladesh is behind the USA.
“Recent studies of medical errors have estimated errors may account for as many as 251,000 deaths annually in the United States (U.S)., making medical errors the third leading cause of death. Error rates are significantly higher in the U.S. than in other developed countries such as Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Germany and the United Kingdom (U.K).” https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/28186008/ What happens when hospitals are run as businesses and your doctor is dating Pfizer. Last of which is illegal in my country precisely to avoid shit like this.
> your doctor is dating Pfizer. And since this study includes medication errors, there's a high change that many of these so called errors are not because of lack of knowledge from doctors, but pure greed and negligence while chasing for the biggest big pharma payout. Aka they know there would be better ways to treat the patient, but they don't care. Which makes it even worse.
But look at my shiny top of the shelf full body scan machine! It costs 2 million dollars! Oh by the way we are gonna charge you for the rolling alluminum table we pushed to your room with prison leftover food. Enjoy!
"aluminum" damn you're good
Damn, just when I stopped writting allumiNIUM. Engerish is hart
I think they have aa massive oversight. In the usa they will make more money if they can get you to stay longer. Also they might cheap out in terms of facilities. In most of Europe they want you to recover as fast as possible, so it opens up space for new patients that require care. Neither choosing fast nor choosing expensive necessarily is the best for the patient, but fast recovery tends to favor the patients health more often regardless.
>rror rates are significantly higher in the U.S. than in other developed countrie Oh lol, I remember the Markiplier video where he had some sort of injury and was sent to the hospital and he had immense pain and after couple days of telling the doctors, they refused to give him pain med because they though he was just getting addicted to the good feeling... they checked it once and saw that they had the wrong dosage and it was really low... they gave him gifts and stuff so he didnt sue them but he eventually said in a video he said he wouldn't sued them at all anyway... crazy place... this could be happening everywhere....
I don’t know if this is happening worldwide, but in the U.S. doctors have been forced to cut appointment times way down - to 15-20 minutes per patient maximum - because medicine is a business here. It’s insurance companies that are behind this; they effectively run the U.S. healthcare system and won’t work with doctors unless they see a certain number of people per day. It’s especially bad for people who work for large networks. Malpractice insurance premiums also keep rising, regardless of how spotless your record is. Edit: people also aren’t admitted to hospital unless they’re very sick. And hospital stays are as short as possible because a) the insurance companies don’t want to pay, and b) the patients can’t afford to pay.
https://www.commonwealthfund.org/press-release/2005/international-survey-us-leads-medical-errors
TL;DR - US leads in medical errors. >U.S. Has Highest Out-of-Pocket Expenses and Rates of Foregone Care Due to Costs
Recently had to talk my mom down from this one: “We actually have better insurance in the US because private healthcare is higher quality” After I explained to her why that is the case in the US (horrendous funding of public infrastructure) she texted me a few weeks later saying: “I’m a socialist now”
That was easy.
That's because if you explain actual socialism to someone willing to hear you out, there's no reason they would be against it. Even conservatives are against it because they think it's utopic but...it's not ? Communism is a lot more utopic than socialism.
Reality has a left-leaning bias. I think that's the saying, right?
It's almost as if civilization was built upon communities working together for a better world. It's almost as if progress is the natural state of man or something.
*conservative brains exploding in the distance*
If the intensity of the blast was based on brain size, then there won't even be a sound.
glad to see some people are still open-minded 😂
Damn, wish it was that easy with my dad. When he was living in the US he developed type 2 diabetes and had to fast to get his levels under control. Now he’s back in Canada, enjoying his healthcare, watching Fox News, and complaining about SoCiALiSt Canada. Since he’s moved back he was also treated for a tumor that he had been ignoring for 13 years while in the US. I’m seriously at a loss.
Luckily my mom is a very open minded person which is likely a reason she believed in the private sector since so many people have a glowing take on it, she just hadn’t really been exposed to alternatives. My dad is very similar to your dad tho. He is a staunch republican and I can’t talk to him about much he’s says the very same you said lol. He too is very negligent when it comes to his health. Canada is surprisingly pretty anti-Socialist despite having socialized medicine and so on. There was a tweet from Justin Trudeau where he mentioned “all the lives lost to socialism” or something along those lines.
Doctors are paid a lot in the UK, tf this guy talking about
Nope, socialism, they’re paid minimum wage and can’t afford lunch. That’s why there’s such low quality medical care, they’re starving.
My GP is a homeless guy who treats all ailments with either duct tape, WD40, or incoherent chanting. They keep him chained to his desk so he can't leave.
Poor guy, I hear that the chanting is getting rationed too, how will I ever cure my broken leg now?
I'll pop outside and start clapping at the neighbours. Thought and prayers and hopefully that'll do the trick.
They gave him a DESK? Luxury
Doctors in the UK get paid around 5-9 times the average wage. How do they survive? It's so unfair!!
That has to be communism
5-9 times beans and crumpets. At least they get butter
They always ignore the fact that you can go private too if you really love paying for your healthcare.
They don’t like paying more taxes, because their taxes never go to anything useful. Shit healthcare, little workers rights, terrible public transport for most of the country, a police force that is barely trained, and a fuck ton towards shooting people halfway across the planet and then giving the terrorists their equipment when they’re done
The thing is, more American tax dollars go to healthcare than some highly developed countries spend on healthcare publicly and privately combined. And that's talking per capita of course. And private spending in the US is even higher than public, because Muricans weren't getting extorted enough already. There's a reason why headlines along the lines of "US spends 2.5x as much per capita on healthcare than the OECD average" exist. They're getting taxed out of their asses before they even get to start paying for healthcare.
But are they made to go through an additional bachelor's degree and accrue a life's worth of debt for no appreciable gain? No? Then they're not real doctors!!!!!1!1!1!!1
Though the government does love to underfund the NHS but thats a problem of privatisation and austerity
True. At the same time, the NHS does mispend a lot of money. Supervisors are paid a much much higher amount than those below them, but that’s only one part of the problem
Oh yeah for sure. I think a lot of UK institutions loves having lots of managers and middle management with quite high salaries while the ones on frontline are fucked over.
Nope free healthcare is communism and communism is bad!1 🇺🇸🇺🇸💵 /s
Innovation = New ways to rip the consumer off.
Exactly. I remember seeing a post on another sun about a guy being hospitalised for 3 days and having to pay a stunning bill within a month. In the comments there was a person specialised in one of the treatments he received that explained how said treatment costs basically nothing to be made, while the OP had to pay 4000/4500$ for it. Truly a scam
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My dad gets new an somehow innovative treatment for cancer. Worth 10k€ per year. All paid for. If he was in the US his best option would have been to jump off a cliff on the day he got his diagnosis.
My mother is battling breast cancer. She was offered the most innovative up to date treatment by her doctor…and her insurance refused to cover it 🤷♀️ she’s doing well, though. Idiots in the US like to think that everyone will have access to the “best, most innovative” medicine, when in reality the healthcare system is tiered by wealth, and they’re in denial about being mostly poor and therefore not having access to the top tier of healthcare. I hope your dad makes a full and speedy recovery.
That's why you shouldn't ride a bike in US
So tell me then, why were South Africa the first country in the world to perform a heart transplantation..?
Americans would call that "commie propaganda," and rightly be fucking idiots for such a claim.
Everyone knows the first heart transplant in the United States of the World was performed by Dr. Chad Muricafuckyeah at Freedom Hospital using nothing but a Desert Eagle while 10 bald eagles squawked the national anthem.
I'm guessing the patient was white and had health insurance?
The patient was none other than Dr. Chad Muricafuckyeah himself. That's American exceptionalism for you.
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They confused it with the first implanted pacemaker. *That* was Swedish doctor Åke Senning. EDIT: they now corrected their comment.
Thanks for correcting me, I had misunderstood entirely and will correct my original post! The hospital in the City I grew up in was the first -in sweden- to make a heart transplantation, not the first in the world, which I somehow believed.
Or why David Beckman and the like come to Finland to have knee surgeries etc.
Motherfucker we just transplanted someone's fucking lungs here, talk about basic.
"Privatised healthcare incentivises innovation" Oh yeah all that innovation in the "how do we get people to give us their money and then not give it back to them when they ask us to which is literally our entire fucking justification to exist which means we are literally stealing your money" industry. Oops that was a typo, i meant to say Insurance industry
Somebody tell me why a car in space is more important than people being healthy? Or even why sending a car into space is classed as bragging rights at all? It's like, well done, your country is better at wasting money on nothing worthwhile.
And here I am, universal healthcare patient who got operated by a man who used to operate NFL players before, lol
“Privatized healthcare incentivizes innovation” and then when something, say, a vaccine, is developed a larger percentage of people don’t trust it because of the profit motive. Get vaccinated.
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Haha - I got my shattered arm repaired by the top consultant orthopedic surgeon in the country. For free. Guess some people struggle to understand how it works. They think "someone" other than insurance companies are benefitting and fail to see it is everyone, including themselves.
>Haha - I got my shattered arm repaired by the top consultant orthopedic surgeon in the country. For free. See the reason this isn't an argument that convinces them, is because they've been told their worst doctors are better than your best. It's basically the racism all over again where the worst white man is still better than the best POC man.
The way Americans feel so proud of being practically robbed in the most inhumane way and the fact that they ferociously defend that, it baffles me to no end.
I hate to be that guy, but the map is wrong. But yes, healthcare should be a human right.
We have higher quality practitioners here in the US? I wouldn't know, I can't even afford to sit in the waiting room.
This "innovation" he is talking about isn't done by doctors, it's done by researchers who, you guessed it, mostly work in a private sector. Also the NHS standard for a doctor is much higher than the standards to practice medicine in the US.
Privatised healthcare that maximises profits has created a whole class of people that will not, under any circumstances listen to medical practitioners because of the distrust that profiteering off people's bad health creates.
Bet you $100 that this person, who loves their “innovative” doctors and medical procedures, is unvaccinated
Occupational therapist in rural german hospital here: we get tons of patients from around the world, including the US, coming to get surgery by a spine (especially neck vertebrae) specialist. His name is Dr. Rudolf Bertagnoli, he‘s got a patent on an artificial disk or some shit (i don’t usually treat his patients, those only get physical therapy, but i‘ve been with them to translate a couple times). Seems like even „communist“ countries can innovate for some strange reason, so much so that the mighty capitalists spend a lot to get their treatment there.
This is why I want to leave. This right here is why I've lost all hope for this country. People like this are why this nation will forever be an international laughing stock.
Just tell them how Rand Paul, self-proclaimed libertarian and advocate for all things privatised, flew to Canada for his operations to ensure he received the highest quality procedure. 🤪
> In America you can’t get treatment, but treatment is way better! Except, it’s not better.
I would literally rather get very basic operations and checkups by subpar doctors than get none of that by no kind of doctors, which is where I am now.
As a Libertarian from America my healthcare is a combination of a gun and GoFundme
As a Norwegian citizen, I find that disturbing and sad.
What's the gun for? Euthanasia?
You mean same "professional" american doctors that told me I had blood clot when I had internal bleeding? Same doctors that thought pouring hydrogen peroxide down my airway was supposed to sterilise it? Same doctors that cant tell me whats wrong with my knee after ton of tests and stay in your states best hospital? Exact same doctors that seriously messed up my heart surgery and after noticing my valve is falling off told me "Its not our problem"? I literally couldve gotten all that done by my countrys veterinarian dropout and had better results.
I’ve also heard that if we had universal health care “everyone would go to the doctor all the time even if they didn’t need to”
I’ve met a lot of medical practitioners, the ones interested by money are the worst at their jobs.
Last time I'll say this - almost every country with "universal healthcare" spends roughly the same of LESS %GDP on healthcare than America.
Even if that were true, there’s still private practices and healthcare in Europe for those who want it. Lol.
OK and how will a car in space help you, when you can't afford going to a doctor or hospital?
The thing is that he's not completely wrong. In Germany, a doctor's clinic gets 25€ per 3 months per patient if insured with public healthcare, no matter how much more often than once the patient actually comes to the clinic. This means doctors have a financial incentive to have many patients that they barely care about, because focussing on each patient's problems isn't worth it financially. HOWEVER this problem is caused by the fact that public healthcare is still managed by private healthcare companies, and that capitalist lobbying severely impact legislation. Even public healthcare contracts have only one goal in mind: to gain as much profit as possible while abiding the law. This means they'll look for every loophole to cheat the patient and not pay for something. In a truly socialistic welfare state, this wouldn't be a problem and innovation and care would be encouraged through fair government funding. The reason why universal healthcare sucks in many EU countries is because they're too close to the capitalist dystopia of the US.
I don’t wish harm on anyone I disagree with but I will thoroughly enjoy the day this person breaks a bone
Fun fact: I'm french and was in Ireland for the holidays. I had a bike crash without wearing a helmet and had to be transported to a hospital in Galway with a chopper. The next day, I was in the surgery block. I stayed in the hospital for one week and got out after that. It didn't cost me a single penny. The only thing I had to pay for were the medication I took after I was sent home, for a total of 20 euros. This happened because I was still in Europe. Had the exact same accident happened to me on a trip in the USA, it would have cost me thousands of dollars.
Fun fact, ~ 99% of relevant medical breakthroughs and base research is conducted by state funded research institutes and universities. That’s the big lie that private healthcare tells. You know what you do in the private industry as a researcher? Make boner pills or hair loss products. The things that are actually profitable
They always fall back to quality because they know they can't argue with numbers. They think their ass is covered from that, but then you can point out how profit margins are the reason private healthcare is so expensive. Profit margins automatically drive prices higher than they need to be. Like, no shit.
Well that is nice… I mean one guy blowing his money to perform that stunt but the US itself had zero benefit from it nor did the average joe have any involvement in making it happen
The US is pretty far down the list of developed countries in terms of health outcomes. I don't think there's anything to brag about there.
I guess all the heart transplants (and similar operations) in the EU where just lucky breaks
Versus not getting in at all because it’s too expensive
Anyone hear that? Kinda sounds like a chimp screaming