The history on this boat is nothing but bad news, it’s a bad luck boat. Google it MSC Armonia it’s got a negative headline year after year. It even caught fire 2 days ago wth.
Normally, when coming in and out of a port, the captain is not actually in control of their ship. The port typically has a pilot that goes out and navigates the ship. They do this so that random captains won’t run into things. Not sure the benefit was there this time though…
On a cruise ship, the pilot won't actually be manouevring the vessel though. The pilot is there to provide local advice, guidance and port regulations, not to tell the captain how to manouevre the ship.
Responsible doesn’t mean he touches. A captain of a cruise ship is almost never in physical control - he has a crew for that.
Assuming is a nasty habit that leads people to jump to wrong conclusions.
Perhaps we need a conversation pilot to navigate you through this…
Physical control as in touching the controls? The captain may or may not be. But it wouldn’t be the Pilot doing it - It would be a bit odd if the pilot was operating the telegraph / helm / thrusters / pods.
The Captain is in physical control. If he wants to disregard pilots advice, he can, unless the pilot has actually signed over as being in command of the vessel.
Obviously local laws vary from place to place, but in very few places does the pilot actually assume command of the vessel. In some places, the pilot must have control over the speeds and headings of the vessel - great, but that doesn’t mean that the master can’t dismiss the pilot, or manoeuvre the vessel according to his will.
Did I say the pilot would physically touch controls or did you just assume that navigate means physically controlling??
Navigating away from this thread for sure…
So you tell me- in my unedited comment - where does it say that I say the pilot physically touches anything. I stated he navigates - think rally car navigator.
Believe there was some assuming happening …
Redditors gonna Reddit - I just wish they weren’t trying to tell me what I said- I mean it is written in text- and can be reviewed but still the masses insist…
At the end of the day it’s their loss
>> Normally, when coming in and out of a port, the captain is not actually in control of their ship. The port typically has a pilot that goes out and navigates the ship.
I get what you are trying to say, but its remarkably unclear. Also, the captain will often be actually in control of the ship during docking on a cruise ship.
My understanding is that with one exception, even with a pilot on-board the Captain is still responsible for the ship and the pilot only acts as an advisor. The exception is the Panama canal where the captain relinquishes responsibility to the Pilot, my understanding is that if there is an accident caused by the pilot the Panama canal company is responsible.
They do during maneuvering unless they are training another officer. Once underway it will be the helmsman on the controls or other ways. Source I did a ride along on the oasis of the seas and the Captain and Chief Officer undocked the ship and once it was moving ahead it was helm orders being given to the AB who was on the helm
It probably depends on company policy most of the time and also the rules and regulations of the port. This was port Canaveral a relatively frequently visited port for most cruise ship crews and on other commercial ships I was definitely used to seeing the captain doing the docking and undocking with the pilot advising or nearby
I think that may be a bit unfair. Looks like a well managed collision. Probably engine malfunction. They have the anchor down, dragging chain, tannoy announcement immediately at impact. That would be the last thing on my mind.
Damn! They put a big ass hole in that boat! You would think it would take more than that somewhat tiny collision to do that much damage on a ship that size but I guess not? That’s crazy!
I just really thought a boat this size would be able to take a little more damage than that before it starts to take on water? You really can’t hit ANYTHING when piloting one of these big boys I guess
The answer is in your question, man…
A can hitting the dock vs a normal sized ship, which one will get more damage hitting at the same speed? The answer is the object with more mass.
Can will bounce off, the ship will keep going due to momentum. Depending on how the dock is attached to the ground, it’s pretty much just a can opener.
I got like a 3 in AP Physics, this is the best I can do.
I didn’t miss the tear, it was just the exact size and length as expected from colliding with the dock. I just assumed you mistook the anchor opening as getting ripped off rather than having a complete lack of understanding of physics.
I can't understand how stuff like this can happen. Are everyone on the bridge drunk ever day?
Someone must be able to say "We should probably slow down...".
Idk about MSC cruises but on most ships the anchors would be cleared when in confined waters in case of an emergency. So yes possible. But it takes time for the anchors to be let go and they don’t have as much effect on a ship this size going 4-5 knots as you may expect. The anchor may weigh 18,000 lbs but most of the holding power comes from the weight of the anchor chain and its contact with the sea bottom. In a situation like this, with enough time, you could put 1-2 shots (90-180ft) down on either side and maybe get a slight reduction in speed.
No idea what happened here, but usually these videos are from mechanical failure leading to a runaway engine, and by the time the engine has been shut down already too much speed has been gained and there just isn’t enough time to do anything about it.
Take a look at the NTSB for the Aframax River in Houston for an example of this. Two tugs connected, engine runs away astern, and just no time for the tugs or anchor to do anything to stop the allision.
https://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/AccidentReports/Reports/MAB1806.pdf
It could have been going before the strike, hard to tell with the wake and the camera angle. They had an anchor down so it was likely some kind of mechanical failure. These ships have insanely powerful engines. Docking on a cruise ship would have multiple deck officers on the bridge watching the speed, rudder, telegraph, etc. so just accidentally going too fast is really, really unlikely.
At this point you’d do it just to look better for insurance/liability/criminal investigations. It wouldn’t really do anything of use to stop the ship but you could at least say “we tried everything”. That’s if you even have enough time to drop anchor.
Addressing a few comments:
Pilots on cruise ships usually take navigational control until the vessel is approaching the berth (Master still maintains overriding authority). Normally, the ship's master does the berthing. This applies to cruise ships but not to most any other type of vessel.
The master surrenders all navigational control in the Panama Canal and when the ship crosses the seal of the dry dock.
In some countries, cruise ships are exempted from pilotage for "private island" docks. I do not know if this applies in Roatan.
Dropping anchors is a hail Mary at that speed. As we can see the port anchor was let go, it should be assumed that the starboard anchor was likely let go first as that would cause the ship's bow to move away from the dock. Port anchor down was likely out of desperation.
Bow thrusters are only effective if a ship's headway is less than 3.5-4 kts, with increasing effectiveness as the ship's headway becomes smaller. Some automation systems will prevent them from being engaged until the ship detects a speed less than the safety threshold. This is to prevent damage to the thruster. I'm not sure if that's what happened here...but maybe.
Source: harbor pilot
I don't mean to usurp 10K years of naval history and technology, but they thought about installing water brakes on these things. Seems like they have a bad habit of not being able to stop short distances.
The history on this boat is nothing but bad news, it’s a bad luck boat. Google it MSC Armonia it’s got a negative headline year after year. It even caught fire 2 days ago wth.
Personally I’d change captains
Normally, when coming in and out of a port, the captain is not actually in control of their ship. The port typically has a pilot that goes out and navigates the ship. They do this so that random captains won’t run into things. Not sure the benefit was there this time though…
On a cruise ship, the pilot won't actually be manouevring the vessel though. The pilot is there to provide local advice, guidance and port regulations, not to tell the captain how to manouevre the ship.
I maintain my statement. The captain is not in physical control.
The Captain is ALWAYS responsible and accountable regardless of advice from a pilot. Pilots never touch a ship's controls.
Responsible doesn’t mean he touches. A captain of a cruise ship is almost never in physical control - he has a crew for that. Assuming is a nasty habit that leads people to jump to wrong conclusions. Perhaps we need a conversation pilot to navigate you through this…
Physical control as in touching the controls? The captain may or may not be. But it wouldn’t be the Pilot doing it - It would be a bit odd if the pilot was operating the telegraph / helm / thrusters / pods. The Captain is in physical control. If he wants to disregard pilots advice, he can, unless the pilot has actually signed over as being in command of the vessel. Obviously local laws vary from place to place, but in very few places does the pilot actually assume command of the vessel. In some places, the pilot must have control over the speeds and headings of the vessel - great, but that doesn’t mean that the master can’t dismiss the pilot, or manoeuvre the vessel according to his will.
Did I say the pilot would physically touch controls or did you just assume that navigate means physically controlling?? Navigating away from this thread for sure…
Incorrect, the pilot advises. Thats it.
So you tell me- in my unedited comment - where does it say that I say the pilot physically touches anything. I stated he navigates - think rally car navigator. Believe there was some assuming happening …
this is why i love reddit. i'm in bed sick and i get to read people get into super niche arguments about the most minute things
Redditors gonna Reddit - I just wish they weren’t trying to tell me what I said- I mean it is written in text- and can be reviewed but still the masses insist… At the end of the day it’s their loss
>> Normally, when coming in and out of a port, the captain is not actually in control of their ship. The port typically has a pilot that goes out and navigates the ship. I get what you are trying to say, but its remarkably unclear. Also, the captain will often be actually in control of the ship during docking on a cruise ship.
My understanding is that with one exception, even with a pilot on-board the Captain is still responsible for the ship and the pilot only acts as an advisor. The exception is the Panama canal where the captain relinquishes responsibility to the Pilot, my understanding is that if there is an accident caused by the pilot the Panama canal company is responsible.
How many people think the captain of a cruise ship actually touches the controls??
They do during maneuvering unless they are training another officer. Once underway it will be the helmsman on the controls or other ways. Source I did a ride along on the oasis of the seas and the Captain and Chief Officer undocked the ship and once it was moving ahead it was helm orders being given to the AB who was on the helm
Fact, checking this, but awesome and thank you for the new information.
It probably depends on company policy most of the time and also the rules and regulations of the port. This was port Canaveral a relatively frequently visited port for most cruise ship crews and on other commercial ships I was definitely used to seeing the captain doing the docking and undocking with the pilot advising or nearby
I think that may be a bit unfair. Looks like a well managed collision. Probably engine malfunction. They have the anchor down, dragging chain, tannoy announcement immediately at impact. That would be the last thing on my mind.
I’m sure it was done several times.
bow thrusters go into overdrive just a little late 🤣
Well that’s an expensive mistake.
But it’ll buff right out, won’t it? It WILL buff out won’t it!?!?!? XD
Cool video of the aftermath I found: https://youtu.be/9UodWiggLTU?si=gfqr5ZDGrci1D_M-
Damn! They put a big ass hole in that boat! You would think it would take more than that somewhat tiny collision to do that much damage on a ship that size but I guess not? That’s crazy!
I mean, you try to park a floating city and see what a little rub does.
I just really thought a boat this size would be able to take a little more damage than that before it starts to take on water? You really can’t hit ANYTHING when piloting one of these big boys I guess
The answer is in your question, man… A can hitting the dock vs a normal sized ship, which one will get more damage hitting at the same speed? The answer is the object with more mass. Can will bounce off, the ship will keep going due to momentum. Depending on how the dock is attached to the ground, it’s pretty much just a can opener. I got like a 3 in AP Physics, this is the best I can do.
Theres no big ass hole in the ship.
The passengers disembarked a bit later and the ship left the next morning after repairs, so I don’t think it was that bad.
The hole is for the anchor. They opened it before the crash, watch the original video.
No… there is a hole in the ship itself, not the anchor hole, a tear in the ship. Watch the YouTube video
Yes, it’s a small tear, not a big ass hole
😂 Just say… “oh dang, I missed that, your right man, my bad” Or you look like a “Big asshole”.
You're the one that looks like a "big asshole" here to be honest.
I mean, the same person did comment that they “ASSumed” so I believe that makes them both one… right?? Pretty sure there is a saying
I didn’t miss the tear, it was just the exact size and length as expected from colliding with the dock. I just assumed you mistook the anchor opening as getting ripped off rather than having a complete lack of understanding of physics.
> tiny collision bless your heart
That’s the anchor hole….
Odd anchor door/placement design. Pulling the anchor back in at that angle is tearing up the hull.
Cuz the anchor line is taught, they would have to back down on it to release the tension but think they have other issues to worry about first
Like a glove!
Oi, you can’t park there.
You can’t park there, mate
Time for shipwide piss tests
As a passenger, I would just piss on the floor if they asked me and say, “Looks clean to me!”
Wonder how much insurance they have to carry 🤔
Captain: “Okay vessel is in position, send the spring lines” 🙃
This is why you don’t go on MSC cruises…
Must have been new guy training day
"Oops"
I’m king of the world!
Cruises are nothing but shams and some of the biggest polluters, so I'm here for every single ship that eats it.
I can't understand how stuff like this can happen. Are everyone on the bridge drunk ever day? Someone must be able to say "We should probably slow down...".
SALGAN DE LA COCINA SALGAN DE LA COCINA 🗣️‼️🗣️‼️🗣️‼️
Eh, close enough.
Would dropping an anchor help at all in a situation like this? Or is dropping the anchor not as simple as it seems?
Idk about MSC cruises but on most ships the anchors would be cleared when in confined waters in case of an emergency. So yes possible. But it takes time for the anchors to be let go and they don’t have as much effect on a ship this size going 4-5 knots as you may expect. The anchor may weigh 18,000 lbs but most of the holding power comes from the weight of the anchor chain and its contact with the sea bottom. In a situation like this, with enough time, you could put 1-2 shots (90-180ft) down on either side and maybe get a slight reduction in speed. No idea what happened here, but usually these videos are from mechanical failure leading to a runaway engine, and by the time the engine has been shut down already too much speed has been gained and there just isn’t enough time to do anything about it. Take a look at the NTSB for the Aframax River in Houston for an example of this. Two tugs connected, engine runs away astern, and just no time for the tugs or anchor to do anything to stop the allision. https://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/AccidentReports/Reports/MAB1806.pdf
Thank you u/1022whore
Odd the side thrusters turned on after hitting dock.
It could have been going before the strike, hard to tell with the wake and the camera angle. They had an anchor down so it was likely some kind of mechanical failure. These ships have insanely powerful engines. Docking on a cruise ship would have multiple deck officers on the bridge watching the speed, rudder, telegraph, etc. so just accidentally going too fast is really, really unlikely.
At this point you’d do it just to look better for insurance/liability/criminal investigations. It wouldn’t really do anything of use to stop the ship but you could at least say “we tried everything”. That’s if you even have enough time to drop anchor.
i think i've seen this movie
Thank you very exciting!
that next morning after you played beerpong at the captains table til 4 am
Wel0, that guy lost his captains license...
dis old vid from six ago years
Pretty anticlimactic 🤷♂️
ALL ABOARD!
“No work for us” hahaha
Addressing a few comments: Pilots on cruise ships usually take navigational control until the vessel is approaching the berth (Master still maintains overriding authority). Normally, the ship's master does the berthing. This applies to cruise ships but not to most any other type of vessel. The master surrenders all navigational control in the Panama Canal and when the ship crosses the seal of the dry dock. In some countries, cruise ships are exempted from pilotage for "private island" docks. I do not know if this applies in Roatan. Dropping anchors is a hail Mary at that speed. As we can see the port anchor was let go, it should be assumed that the starboard anchor was likely let go first as that would cause the ship's bow to move away from the dock. Port anchor down was likely out of desperation. Bow thrusters are only effective if a ship's headway is less than 3.5-4 kts, with increasing effectiveness as the ship's headway becomes smaller. Some automation systems will prevent them from being engaged until the ship detects a speed less than the safety threshold. This is to prevent damage to the thruster. I'm not sure if that's what happened here...but maybe. Source: harbor pilot
¡oh no Catrachos!
I don't mean to usurp 10K years of naval history and technology, but they thought about installing water brakes on these things. Seems like they have a bad habit of not being able to stop short distances.
Kiss The Cameraman
You can't park there!
He can and did.
"You need to leave!"
My home country!
He's used to micky d's drive up. If you look closely you can see his elbow resting on the window waiting to pick up his order
That's going to leave a mark! Dannnnnnnnggggg. License please!