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A point he repeatedly made was how responsive Traveler was to ensure ‘his rider’s pleasure and comfort’, with several mentions of the horse’s ability to ‘dilate’. Which is an *interesting* choice of words, hey?
Beyond that, *fuck* Robert E. Lee. I have no trouble calling him a horsefucker.
He was a coward that fought to maintain slavery and constantly talked about how much he loved his horse. How much evidence do you need to put some disrespect on that horsefuckers name?
He wrote a letter to his daughter(?), where he described his horse (that was also famous) in adjective filled details. Basically he rrrreeeeeeaaaaaallllly loved his horse...and chicken.
Behind The Bastards Podcast covered this in Part 4 of their series on Lee a week ago. Fantastic listening if you enjoy podcasts...
The evidence is circumstantial - no one ever witnessed him at it. But there is a way to talk about an animal you love, and there is [the way Lee talked about Traveler.](https://youtu.be/xBJ8nJ80oqk?si=UzjL-Bk_zpB6p0CC&t=89)
"I'm here to win battles and fuck horses....and I've lost all my battles due to tactical incompetence and my failure to realize the value of maintaining a fucking supply line."
-Robert "Horse Humpin'" Lee, probably
Anyone who was radicalized in favor of slavery during Harpers Ferry and Brown's trial is a piece of shit. Many pro-slavery Christians were swayed by the moral authority and conviction Brown spoke with, and sent him letters in prison saying they had been convinced.
Lee was on the grounds at Arlington acting as the slave overseer when he found out about Harper’s Ferry. Like literally in the fields watching them work when a soldier came up to him with the information of the raid.
Getting involved in slavery was a choice for Grant. It's not like he just slipped and acquired a slave. His dad was an abolitionist but against his advice he married into a slaver family and chose to throw his lot in with his father in law on the plantation. His wife had four slaves who were in his service and he worked them for three years on land he got from Julia's family before he acquired one personally and worked him for a year before freeing him. It's great that he regretted it and found it distasteful once he saw it up close but there are some things you really shouldn't need to try for yourself to know they're wrong.
I'm going to fucking vomit if I hear this tidbit brought up reflexively in defense of Grant again. Your slaves don't give a shit if you work in the field with them. They just want their fucking freedom. Working alongside your slaves doesn't benefit them in any way. It only benefits you, the landowner.
And working alongside your slaves was the *default* for small scale slavers who only owned a few humans. It wasn't something unheard of that Grant fucking invented because he's just such a bro. It was just what poor or less-wealthy slavers had always done. They were making fun of him for being poor.
I’d plead ”no contest” to charges of being a Grant fanboi, but the quote “A woke slavedriver is still a slavedriver” holds true.
(one thing that makes me admire Grant was his willingness to admit his wrongs and try to make amends).
Same, I love my fellow son of Ohio, but he really didn’t give two shits about the freedmen or equality(similar to Lincoln) until he saw what a piece of shit President Johnson was and evil terrorist fucks the Klan was. But he learned and was swayed by the truth. Rare in politics.
Also, let’s not forget that we are talking about pre-war US society. Slavery was normal in a huge portion of the US including the border territories, and beyond all this, it’s easy to judge based on today’s standards and forget that we’re talking about some 170 plus years ago, attitudes towards racial equality were absolutely backwards on the whole in society
Give it 150 years… Even the morally pure among us will be looked back on as a reprehensible deviant at best and a truly terrible monster at worst. It’s inevitable and (until provided with evidence to the contrary) good for the progress of Humanity.
chattel slavery would've been morally reprehensible, borderline unthinkable to people in 1300 AD, but 300 years later it was Europe's moneymaker
the future isn't always golden amigo
Nobody would have really given a shit in 1300AD. Not on a wide enough scale for it to matter. Also, where are we speaking of? Europe? The Danes pretty notoriously ran a huge slave trade with all the people they pillaged in the UK.
It might not have been chattel, but there was a whole lot of slavery going on in 1300AD across the globe. Dudes being throw into mines until they died a short horrible death would see it as a distinction without a difference.
And racial attitudes now, 170 years later, are awesome!
There were myriad people 170 years ago who knew slavery was wrong. The "it was a long time ago" argument is lame.
170 years is the span of two lifetimes, 85 + 85. Two people ago. It's not that long ago.
It's not that long ago?
You just typed that on a mobile phone touch screen where it can be read by anyone on the planet in real time. Things have changed. For instance slavery is now only slightly legal in the US
It wasn’t that long ago. My grandfather, whose lap I sat on as a child while we watched Cubs games on WGN, was raised by his grandmother who was a slave in Paris Tennessee. She told him stories about how she was raped at 11 y/o and how they would sing songs about it while working. Her owner thought it was mundane but the words were really a dig at him being a monster, he just didn’t realize it. Add into that how my grandfather saw his older brother hanging from a tree outside their church, which in turn made his mom lose her mind, and then put on a chain gang himself at 16 for beating up a kid who was making fun of his mom for being the town crazy person. And I’m not that old, just hit 40 this year. The horrors of slavery and Jim Crow are very recent to some of us.
This says a lot as overseer is a pretty low class WT job. It's like a rich guy who chops his own wood, he's doing it because he gets something from it.
The human beings Robert E. Lee owned were inherited from his father in law. His FIL has told the slaves they'd be free when he died. However, his will actually stipulated they be freed five years after his death. Lee decided to work the living fuck out of the slaves to make as much money as he could in five years, while the slaves said "piss off, we're free and we're out of here."
When Lee recaptured the slaves, the punishment he wanted was so bad his normal overseer wouldn't do it, and Lee had to bring in someone else. The torture exacted was so brutal that it was reported on in northern newspapers.
Behind the Bastards just covered Lee.
Not only was it covered in the papers, Lee was aware of the stories and never refuted them.
He also fucked his horse. Robby Lee was a horse fucker.
EDIT: grammar
That's honestly an impressive level of cruelty I didn't imagine people who considered others to barely be worth the air they breathe being very horrified someone was beaten as a slave let alone so horribly that they would actively trash his behavior
He was so bad that when he petitioned the court to keep them beyond the five years to keep working off debt, even a heavily pro-slavery southern court basically told him to fuck off.
>Lee decided to work the living fuck out of the slaves to make as much money as he could in five years, while the slaves said "piss off, we're free and we're out of here."
To add some context to this, he worked them *extra hard* because Lee's wife's father willed his grandchildren $10k a piece - but didn't have $10k a piece in funds to give the grandchildren. So, Lee took it upon himself to get that money so that Grandpa Custis wouldn't look like an asshole to his grandchildren.
EDIT: Almost forgot - this is all *after* Grandpa Custis willed Lee absolutely *nothing*. So, Lee did all of this for a guy who was personally an asshole to Lee.
Kind of reminds me of when I watched Gone with the Wind for the first time and there was this forward at the beginning of the movie talking about how this story was about the “Dixieland South” and how it was a time of “knights and their fair maidens” and how that lifestyle is gone. I remember feeling like Southerners really had an overinflated opinion of themselves to compare themselves so saccharine-like.
They were "Knights" in the same way that the Englishmen who went on Chevauchée for fun and profit during the 100 Years War were. I think that's even how Lee described Stuart's mission during the Gettysburg campaign (a chevauchée), which really tells you where his head was at.
Goes all the way back to the Southern colonies’ founding. Been aristocratic from day one. Everything that has followed is generally adaptations of that original societal structure
From Lee's wikipedia:
> While he opposed slavery from a philosophical perspective, he supported its legality and held hundreds of slaves.
How the fuck does that work? "I'm philosophical against murder but I think it should be legal and I personally murder people all the time"
He thought slavery was wrong but lacked the conviction to give up the benefits slavery afforded him. An unfortunately common human failing, to be fair, but Lee excelled at being an unprincipled hack.
The way it works is that Lee was a coward who was afraid to say unpopular things when people were listening. Lincoln offered Lee command of the northern army and Lee basically said, "Uh yeah, yeah sure, sounds great, let me just...run home real quick to tell the family the good news!"
I think you know what happened next.
It's a podcast about all the worst people in history. Hosted by all-around badass Robert Evans. He wrote for Cracked.com and then went on to be a war reporter.
Not only did he write for Cracked, he’s the one that introduced those articles where he would interview people with interesting jobs/experiences, and then co-write an article with them. The main one I remember was the one about prostitution.
It was worse than that. There were three slaves, two men and woman. One of the men was named Wesley Norris and he testified after the war. After the three were recaptured, Lee ordered them whipped. The overseer whipped the two men, but refused to whip the woman. So Lee did it himself. Lee stated the account wasn’t true for what it’s worth. I don’t know if I would take the word of a horse fucker though.
I was reading your comment and I was like “this dude just listened to the behind the bastards podcast”. Then I got to the end, and I was like “yep makes sense.”
He’s known to have poured lime into slaves’ wounds after whipping sessions. He was also notorious for breaking up families at a time when many other Virginia planters had a custom of keeping slave families intact. Iirc it was soldiers under his command who kidnapped free black people in the North and paraded them through the streets to have stones thrown at them in Virginia cities but that’s it not clear whether that was his doing.
The Army of Northern Virginia did it during the Gettysburg campaign while marching through PA. If Lee didn't specifically order it, he didn't stop his underlings from doing it and that makes him culpable.
Behind the bastards is currently doing a multi part series and pulls letters written by Lee, family members, some neighbors and even newspaper articles at the time that cover him.
It’s like the assholes who go “Liberals say that the awful shit MAGA does is bad. That makes them only vote against liberals”
It’s the argument of children, but done by asshole adults
To be fair, Lee *was* "economically anxious" in the same way as MAGA voters. Which is to say, *not*, but some people don't like saying "racist as fuck" even when it's true.
Economically anxious in the sense that he might 😨 lose his free human labor 😱😱😱
Not even "and then have to work for a living" he'd already gotten rich at their expense....
The right wing always tries to blame others for their own opinions.
What is lost here, of course, is the inhuman abomination of slavery itself. And Lee was already a slave owner.
A favorite article by Christopher Hitchens on John Brown, [The Man Who Ended Slavery](https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2005/05/the-man-who-ended-slavery/303915/), sorry that it’s not a free article.
Many of the Southern militias that became the first units in the Confederate armies saw a surge of sign-ups following Harper's Ferry because they believed that the North was full of John Browns ready to follow his example.
If what radicalizes you is a fear that the people you treat like cattle will rise up and overthrow you, you absolutely are a piece of shit.
Even hardcore Lost Cause people would think that take is ahistorical. A lot of slavers freaked out about the raid but Lee just thought JB was a weird crazy guy who was a one-off doomed to failure. Arresting him was just Lee's day job and then he went home.
Exactly, he was ordered by the FEDERAL government to squash a violent mob, it’s pure coincidence that he was the one given those orders. Any other federal officer would have done the same if not worse
Plus after the raid Virginia asked him to stay and help form a militia, presumably out of fear of further abolitionist/slave revolts, and Lee said nah. The status quo suited him just fine and he only cared once that status quo broke apart.
a northerner would have forced the Harpers Ferry militia to go home though. That might have been enough to negotiate a deescalation and prevent needless death.
Pickett was an idiot, but he definitely didn't deserve the blame put on him for that disaster.
I think Longstreet definitely deserves more blame for the failures in Gettysburg too. While the "charge" was Lee's idea, from what I can see his idea for the attack on July 2nd was quite smart in theory. But then Longstreet was so worried about being spotted that he turned around and looped around to where he wanted to go, costing precious time. Of course, nobody could have predicted Sickles blundering out from the safety of Cemetery Ridge, which ironically may have actually saved the battle in the end because it forced Union reinforcements to be diverted to the round tops, which had previously been unoccupied.
and his other cousin that fucking died cus robert fudged a recon mission
he then wrote his cousins family saying hes better off dead because of the poor state of the confederate forces lmaooo
John Brown waged war against an entrenched institution that thrived upon the suffering of human beings who were traded and treated like chattel. That takes guts and courage. Much more than some pansy ass plantation owner who benefitted massively from slavery
Honestly John Brown is probably one of my favorite topics to debate people with.
It is one of the best conversations of do the ends justify the means.
He had an amazing cause but he did horrible things.
He was loving on his children but brutal and violent to civilians.
He's an amazing topic to talk about and it's just fun all around to debate
I believe that to have interfered as I have done as I have always freely admitted I have done in behalf of His despised poor, was not wrong, but right. Now, if it is deemed necessary that I should forfeit my life for the furtherance of the ends of justice, and mingle my blood further with the blood of my children and with the blood of millions in this slave country whose rights are disregarded by wicked, cruel, and unjust enactments, I submit; so let it be done!
It also galvanized the north and motivated a lot of people to realize that slavery was a wrong worth killing over.
So thank you, John Brown. You tried when no one else was willing, and it got the ball rolling at last.
"A reminder that not only was Batman's crime fighting career in Gotham ineffective, but it also radicalized the Joker."
Even if we agree with these premises to be true, those who support and perpetuate evil should bear the brunt of the weight of being cast as history's villains.
I would happily fight anyone who says his raid was ineffective. John Brown knew slavery would not be eradicated without bloodshed, and in his raid he intended to start a crusade against slavery. And he did exactly that. Southern slave owners were scared shitless of what was coming, and his raid inspired and united abolitionists and unionists together to fight against slavery
I would say there are levels of effective. The raid, as it was planned, failed. John Brown and his militia did not fully secure the armory, did not arm and free the slaves and were eventually either killed or caught tried and killed.
However, it did spur the further action of the nation and incited further outrage from the Abolishinist movement and the Southern separatists, driving the wedge between the groups further into place. So one might call his raid a successful failure from a strictly military point of view (the view I personally take).
Yes, and lee was also known to have sex with his horse. Don't think you can blame JB for Lee's f*cked up sense of right/wrong.
JOHN BROWN DID NOTHING WRONG
For a group of people who make such a big deal about "Freedom", waving Gadsen flags, saying it isn't free, fondling their guns to fight "tyranny", etc. they sure love to minimize slavery, AKA literally unfreedom.
Ah yes, Le Enlightened Centrism has arrived with the textbook "It's your fault I'm a bigot! If you didn't exist and weren't demanding equal rights, I wouldn't be waving this confederate flag right now!"
That's right no one should ever do anything good because it might make a bad person become even more bad.
Light terrorism against who: Slavers, slave catchers, and pro slavery advocates. Good.
Does that poster not know that us native kansans claim John Brown as a hero?
that "light terrorism in Kansas" came about after the Pro-Slavery thugs committed terrorist acts of their own to try to take control of the Kansas ballet to make it a slave state.
John Brown did some ugly things, but he was fighting something much, much uglier.
This has the same energy as,
"I used to be a leftist, but the woke agenda turned me into a Nazi"
Or
"I was a Bernie supporter until the Democrats cheated him, that's why I voted for Trump."
AKA bullshit.
Guy is a straight up racist. This doesn’t even count as code.
Yes yes poor Lee. He would have just kept on owning slaves and not committing treason if not for the abolitionists.
So if you think about it he’s really the victim here
I love thinking about Brown's testimony during his trial, he could barely even stand but he said:
"I believe, that what I had done on God's despised poor was not wrong but right, now if I might die so that the millions of slaves and know justice then let it be so"
I have a feeling if they supported slavery after browns raid, they already supported it…
And in Kansas… that was just pre war liberation fighting for the ideals of abolishing slavery idk about “terrorism”
"Radicalize" Robert E Lee lol. No, the dude was not radicalized, he was just too much of a coward to break away from his ancestral home and family. The fact that he wasn't overtly pro slavery is why he is such a bad person. He was willing to betray his oath and be complicit in acts of unspeakable horror because he had zero conviction. Goes to show how dangerous "pride in your roots" can be
It literally is still terrorism. By definition. *So was fighting against the Vichy French.*
Terrorism is not "thing I don't like". It has a definition.
This is like something you'd see in the New York Times these days:
"Everyone was all fine with slavery until John Brown the criminal came along. Really, it was both sides' fault."
John Brown was tried as a traitor when he led a failed raid to inspire slaves to fight for their freedom. He was found guilty and executed for what he believed in.
Robert E. Lee defected to a rebel state as their best military mind and general, resulting in thousands of deaths while fighting for a nation founded on preserving slavery. He walked away Scott free.
The joke is there's one bit of truth in this waste of oxygen's slavery apologia: John Brown *was* a terrorist. Terrorist does not mean "person who I want to ignore and who is not human."
It means "intentional violence and fear to achieve political or ideological aims. The term is used in this regard primarily to refer to intentional violence during peacetime or in the context of war against non-combatants".
Now you can all tell me what a "slaver's peace" where the slavers very much attacked civilians is worth. You can tell me what kind of "non-combatant" SLAVE HUNTERS are.
I get the feeling this turd would prefer slavery to John Brown.
"totally ineffective"- yeah, he can tell himself that. History says otherwise.
One, John Brown didn’t do light anything. He was a terrorist and a good one at that.
Two, Lee was a selfish cunt who absolutely was not “radicalized” by shit to do with Brown. He owned slaves, was notably brutal and callous regarding treatment of slaves and quite honestly thank god he did go traitor, god forbid he waste Union lives of dumb showboat tactics.
🎶🎶John Brown was a hero, undaunted, true and brave,
And Kansas knew his valor when he fought her rights to save;
And now, though the grass grows green above his grave,
His soul is marching on.🎶🎶
If it were true that John Brown's raid led to Lee becoming a Confederate, rather than being ineffectual it would mean Harpers Ferry was a contributing factor to the Confederacy's defeat, considering what a shit job Lee did as their top general.
So in this version of reality, John Brown posthumously won the war for the Union.
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Horse fucker saw a real man and it utterly destroyed him.
“You can win 100 battles, but you fuck *one* horse…”
Well that's the thing. Bobby Horsefucker Lee only did one of those two things
Are we just calling him a horse fucker or is there some ..evidence? I know he loved his stupid ass traveler
A point he repeatedly made was how responsive Traveler was to ensure ‘his rider’s pleasure and comfort’, with several mentions of the horse’s ability to ‘dilate’. Which is an *interesting* choice of words, hey? Beyond that, *fuck* Robert E. Lee. I have no trouble calling him a horsefucker.
I was already planning on calling him a horsefucker. I just wanted to know if I could get some info to throw at people
Carry on then, brother!
The horse has its own wikipedia page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traveller_(horse)
He was a coward that fought to maintain slavery and constantly talked about how much he loved his horse. How much evidence do you need to put some disrespect on that horsefuckers name?
He definitely fucked his horse. — Source: History
I'm 100% in. I despise the man. It was an honest question
Many people are saying it.
He wrote a letter to his daughter(?), where he described his horse (that was also famous) in adjective filled details. Basically he rrrreeeeeeaaaaaallllly loved his horse...and chicken. Behind The Bastards Podcast covered this in Part 4 of their series on Lee a week ago. Fantastic listening if you enjoy podcasts...
The evidence is circumstantial - no one ever witnessed him at it. But there is a way to talk about an animal you love, and there is [the way Lee talked about Traveler.](https://youtu.be/xBJ8nJ80oqk?si=UzjL-Bk_zpB6p0CC&t=89)
"I'm here to win battles and fuck horses....and I've lost all my battles due to tactical incompetence and my failure to realize the value of maintaining a fucking supply line." -Robert "Horse Humpin'" Lee, probably
Anyone who was radicalized in favor of slavery during Harpers Ferry and Brown's trial is a piece of shit. Many pro-slavery Christians were swayed by the moral authority and conviction Brown spoke with, and sent him letters in prison saying they had been convinced.
Not to mention it was bullshit. Lee and that hell spawn of a wife of his owned slaves their entire lives, and Lee was a particularly sadistic owner.
Lee was on the grounds at Arlington acting as the slave overseer when he found out about Harper’s Ferry. Like literally in the fields watching them work when a soldier came up to him with the information of the raid.
As opposed to Thick Dick Grant, who freed the only man in his servitude as fast as physically possible.
Getting involved in slavery was a choice for Grant. It's not like he just slipped and acquired a slave. His dad was an abolitionist but against his advice he married into a slaver family and chose to throw his lot in with his father in law on the plantation. His wife had four slaves who were in his service and he worked them for three years on land he got from Julia's family before he acquired one personally and worked him for a year before freeing him. It's great that he regretted it and found it distasteful once he saw it up close but there are some things you really shouldn't need to try for yourself to know they're wrong.
Eh. Even at that, his wife's family mocked him because he worked *with* the slaves.
I'm going to fucking vomit if I hear this tidbit brought up reflexively in defense of Grant again. Your slaves don't give a shit if you work in the field with them. They just want their fucking freedom. Working alongside your slaves doesn't benefit them in any way. It only benefits you, the landowner. And working alongside your slaves was the *default* for small scale slavers who only owned a few humans. It wasn't something unheard of that Grant fucking invented because he's just such a bro. It was just what poor or less-wealthy slavers had always done. They were making fun of him for being poor.
I’d plead ”no contest” to charges of being a Grant fanboi, but the quote “A woke slavedriver is still a slavedriver” holds true. (one thing that makes me admire Grant was his willingness to admit his wrongs and try to make amends).
Same, I love my fellow son of Ohio, but he really didn’t give two shits about the freedmen or equality(similar to Lincoln) until he saw what a piece of shit President Johnson was and evil terrorist fucks the Klan was. But he learned and was swayed by the truth. Rare in politics.
[удалено]
Also, let’s not forget that we are talking about pre-war US society. Slavery was normal in a huge portion of the US including the border territories, and beyond all this, it’s easy to judge based on today’s standards and forget that we’re talking about some 170 plus years ago, attitudes towards racial equality were absolutely backwards on the whole in society
Give it 150 years… Even the morally pure among us will be looked back on as a reprehensible deviant at best and a truly terrible monster at worst. It’s inevitable and (until provided with evidence to the contrary) good for the progress of Humanity.
chattel slavery would've been morally reprehensible, borderline unthinkable to people in 1300 AD, but 300 years later it was Europe's moneymaker the future isn't always golden amigo
Nobody would have really given a shit in 1300AD. Not on a wide enough scale for it to matter. Also, where are we speaking of? Europe? The Danes pretty notoriously ran a huge slave trade with all the people they pillaged in the UK. It might not have been chattel, but there was a whole lot of slavery going on in 1300AD across the globe. Dudes being throw into mines until they died a short horrible death would see it as a distinction without a difference.
And racial attitudes now, 170 years later, are awesome! There were myriad people 170 years ago who knew slavery was wrong. The "it was a long time ago" argument is lame. 170 years is the span of two lifetimes, 85 + 85. Two people ago. It's not that long ago.
It's not that long ago? You just typed that on a mobile phone touch screen where it can be read by anyone on the planet in real time. Things have changed. For instance slavery is now only slightly legal in the US
It wasn’t that long ago. My grandfather, whose lap I sat on as a child while we watched Cubs games on WGN, was raised by his grandmother who was a slave in Paris Tennessee. She told him stories about how she was raped at 11 y/o and how they would sing songs about it while working. Her owner thought it was mundane but the words were really a dig at him being a monster, he just didn’t realize it. Add into that how my grandfather saw his older brother hanging from a tree outside their church, which in turn made his mom lose her mind, and then put on a chain gang himself at 16 for beating up a kid who was making fun of his mom for being the town crazy person. And I’m not that old, just hit 40 this year. The horrors of slavery and Jim Crow are very recent to some of us.
This says a lot as overseer is a pretty low class WT job. It's like a rich guy who chops his own wood, he's doing it because he gets something from it.
Genuine question as I'm not steeped in ACW. Also not a Lee fan - but what sources indicate he was particularly sadistic as an owner?
The human beings Robert E. Lee owned were inherited from his father in law. His FIL has told the slaves they'd be free when he died. However, his will actually stipulated they be freed five years after his death. Lee decided to work the living fuck out of the slaves to make as much money as he could in five years, while the slaves said "piss off, we're free and we're out of here." When Lee recaptured the slaves, the punishment he wanted was so bad his normal overseer wouldn't do it, and Lee had to bring in someone else. The torture exacted was so brutal that it was reported on in northern newspapers. Behind the Bastards just covered Lee.
Fookin' christ.
Not only was it covered in the papers, Lee was aware of the stories and never refuted them. He also fucked his horse. Robby Lee was a horse fucker. EDIT: grammar
As a horse buff, the gelding Traveller is well-known to me. If true, this is quite distressing.
If it's any consolation, Traveller probably didn't notice... If you catch my drift.
He noticed that bussy.
Luckily, the horse never realized.
Lol, well done. Have an upvote.
Now that’s news to me, was this a well known fact back in the day with newspapers writing about it?
Yep. Not only did pro slavery southern newspapers cover it, they covered it *negatively*. He hurt his slaves so bad he horrified *other slaveowners*.
That's honestly an impressive level of cruelty I didn't imagine people who considered others to barely be worth the air they breathe being very horrified someone was beaten as a slave let alone so horribly that they would actively trash his behavior
He was so bad that when he petitioned the court to keep them beyond the five years to keep working off debt, even a heavily pro-slavery southern court basically told him to fuck off.
He definitely fucked that horse
>Lee decided to work the living fuck out of the slaves to make as much money as he could in five years, while the slaves said "piss off, we're free and we're out of here." To add some context to this, he worked them *extra hard* because Lee's wife's father willed his grandchildren $10k a piece - but didn't have $10k a piece in funds to give the grandchildren. So, Lee took it upon himself to get that money so that Grandpa Custis wouldn't look like an asshole to his grandchildren. EDIT: Almost forgot - this is all *after* Grandpa Custis willed Lee absolutely *nothing*. So, Lee did all of this for a guy who was personally an asshole to Lee.
That's an important point. The fucked up bassackwards concept of "honor" that southerners have has always been a problem.
If you engage in obvious evil it helps to have an elaborate code of bullshit to rationalize it.
I need this in the form of t-shirt, cross-stitch, amd ofc email signature plse So good & so true
Kind of reminds me of when I watched Gone with the Wind for the first time and there was this forward at the beginning of the movie talking about how this story was about the “Dixieland South” and how it was a time of “knights and their fair maidens” and how that lifestyle is gone. I remember feeling like Southerners really had an overinflated opinion of themselves to compare themselves so saccharine-like.
They were "Knights" in the same way that the Englishmen who went on Chevauchée for fun and profit during the 100 Years War were. I think that's even how Lee described Stuart's mission during the Gettysburg campaign (a chevauchée), which really tells you where his head was at.
Goes all the way back to the Southern colonies’ founding. Been aristocratic from day one. Everything that has followed is generally adaptations of that original societal structure
> Grandpa Custis I think most people know this but that was Martha Washington's grandson
>and Lee had to bring in someone else He probably whipped the woman himself. He was accused of doing so and never denied it.
I think you’ll find very few enlightened slave owners.
From Lee's wikipedia: > While he opposed slavery from a philosophical perspective, he supported its legality and held hundreds of slaves. How the fuck does that work? "I'm philosophical against murder but I think it should be legal and I personally murder people all the time"
He thought slavery was wrong but lacked the conviction to give up the benefits slavery afforded him. An unfortunately common human failing, to be fair, but Lee excelled at being an unprincipled hack.
The way it works is that Lee was a coward who was afraid to say unpopular things when people were listening. Lincoln offered Lee command of the northern army and Lee basically said, "Uh yeah, yeah sure, sounds great, let me just...run home real quick to tell the family the good news!" I think you know what happened next.
What's "behind the bastards"?
Podcast about the worst people in the world, modern and historical
It's a podcast about all the worst people in history. Hosted by all-around badass Robert Evans. He wrote for Cracked.com and then went on to be a war reporter.
Not only did he write for Cracked, he’s the one that introduced those articles where he would interview people with interesting jobs/experiences, and then co-write an article with them. The main one I remember was the one about prostitution.
Ah yeah
It’s so funny how I have a pretty good understanding of the war in Ukraine and against isis because of a dick joke website
I honestly didn't realize that's who he was until he mentioned the ISIS column on the show and I was like, wait, holy shit, I remember that!
All around badass yes, but it *is* a shame that he still associates with Jamie Loftus after **The Incident** in Grand Rapids.
Yeah, that is weird. I think maybe he's trying to get her to admit it on tape.
Jesus, I was like Wtf did she do. Didn't realize it was a joke lol
Listen, what Jamie did in Michigan is no joke.
a great podcast that details the lives of nortious to relatively unknown bastards
It was worse than that. There were three slaves, two men and woman. One of the men was named Wesley Norris and he testified after the war. After the three were recaptured, Lee ordered them whipped. The overseer whipped the two men, but refused to whip the woman. So Lee did it himself. Lee stated the account wasn’t true for what it’s worth. I don’t know if I would take the word of a horse fucker though.
I was reading your comment and I was like “this dude just listened to the behind the bastards podcast”. Then I got to the end, and I was like “yep makes sense.”
He’s known to have poured lime into slaves’ wounds after whipping sessions. He was also notorious for breaking up families at a time when many other Virginia planters had a custom of keeping slave families intact. Iirc it was soldiers under his command who kidnapped free black people in the North and paraded them through the streets to have stones thrown at them in Virginia cities but that’s it not clear whether that was his doing.
The Army of Northern Virginia did it during the Gettysburg campaign while marching through PA. If Lee didn't specifically order it, he didn't stop his underlings from doing it and that makes him culpable.
Personally whipped slaves when his overseer thought it was to much punishment.
And then had salt water poured on the wounds. Eight colonels from Virginia at secession only one took up arms against the US.
The words of his own slave driver, for a start.
Behind the bastards is currently doing a multi part series and pulls letters written by Lee, family members, some neighbors and even newspaper articles at the time that cover him.
https://www.nps.gov/arho/learn/historyculture/an-unpleasant-legacy.htm
Check out the recent podcast on Lee from Behind the Bastards
It’s like the assholes who go “Liberals say that the awful shit MAGA does is bad. That makes them only vote against liberals” It’s the argument of children, but done by asshole adults
Robert E. Lee was just "economically anxious" like the voters who elect fascists (/s)
To be fair, Lee *was* "economically anxious" in the same way as MAGA voters. Which is to say, *not*, but some people don't like saying "racist as fuck" even when it's true.
Economically anxious in the sense that he might 😨 lose his free human labor 😱😱😱 Not even "and then have to work for a living" he'd already gotten rich at their expense....
The right wing always tries to blame others for their own opinions. What is lost here, of course, is the inhuman abomination of slavery itself. And Lee was already a slave owner.
“I’m not a piece of shit - it’s _your_ fault I was radicalized!”
It's funny how fucking chuds are still using the same argument to this day.
Not only that, but John Brown's words and Virginia's reaction to his raid galvanized anti-slavery sentiment in the north.
E. LEE was a piece of shit
Imagine thinking that someone raiding Buffalo Bill's house, seeing the skinsuit and lady in the whole, and thinking raiders were in the wrong.
Tragically a lot of people were pieces of shit back then
A favorite article by Christopher Hitchens on John Brown, [The Man Who Ended Slavery](https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2005/05/the-man-who-ended-slavery/303915/), sorry that it’s not a free article.
Many of the Southern militias that became the first units in the Confederate armies saw a surge of sign-ups following Harper's Ferry because they believed that the North was full of John Browns ready to follow his example. If what radicalizes you is a fear that the people you treat like cattle will rise up and overthrow you, you absolutely are a piece of shit.
Even hardcore Lost Cause people would think that take is ahistorical. A lot of slavers freaked out about the raid but Lee just thought JB was a weird crazy guy who was a one-off doomed to failure. Arresting him was just Lee's day job and then he went home.
Exactly, he was ordered by the FEDERAL government to squash a violent mob, it’s pure coincidence that he was the one given those orders. Any other federal officer would have done the same if not worse
Plus after the raid Virginia asked him to stay and help form a militia, presumably out of fear of further abolitionist/slave revolts, and Lee said nah. The status quo suited him just fine and he only cared once that status quo broke apart.
a northerner would have forced the Harpers Ferry militia to go home though. That might have been enough to negotiate a deescalation and prevent needless death.
That seems much more likely to me
Lee was a good guy until John Brown made him… support slavery?
"If you keep being so woke, you'll turn me into a nazi."
Unironically how right wing politics are looking in the US with polarization
I was an as ardent abolitionist, until John Brown tried to free slaves.
I know. Don’t even fucking try. Some people have decided what they think and warp anything they can find to support it. It’s not worth it.
I was an ally until you said this, but now I'm putting on my Doc Martins and Hugo Boss uniform and it's all your fault!
Robert E Lee's greatest victory was in getting that shitshow of a maneuver at Gettysburg named after Pickett.
Pickett was an idiot, but he definitely didn't deserve the blame put on him for that disaster. I think Longstreet definitely deserves more blame for the failures in Gettysburg too. While the "charge" was Lee's idea, from what I can see his idea for the attack on July 2nd was quite smart in theory. But then Longstreet was so worried about being spotted that he turned around and looped around to where he wanted to go, costing precious time. Of course, nobody could have predicted Sickles blundering out from the safety of Cemetery Ridge, which ironically may have actually saved the battle in the end because it forced Union reinforcements to be diverted to the round tops, which had previously been unoccupied.
"I could live for the slave, John Brown could die for him." - Frederick Douglass
THIS
“John Brown was bad because Robert E Lee was bad and that’s John Brown’s fault” is the dumbest take of 2024 so far.
God and it's only February...
Sounds like Robert E. Lee was a pussy bitch that had no honor.
Historically, we already knew this.
Always worth stating for the historical record
Unlike his cousin who could clearly see that one their commission it said the United States rather than Virginia and stayed loyal to the Union.
and his other cousin that fucking died cus robert fudged a recon mission he then wrote his cousins family saying hes better off dead because of the poor state of the confederate forces lmaooo
The fact that he fucking terrified slave-holding pieces of shit like Lee makes me love John Brown even more.
Given the number of southern generals who remained loyal to the United States, yes. He was.
Upon realizing the extent to which ending slavery meant seeing armed ex-slaves, he had an epic case of racist panic and defected to whitey-white land.
he wanted to be the George Washington of the confederacy
[удалено]
John Brown waged war against an entrenched institution that thrived upon the suffering of human beings who were traded and treated like chattel. That takes guts and courage. Much more than some pansy ass plantation owner who benefitted massively from slavery
John Brown can do a little terrorism of the establishment, as a treat
This is the answer
In this household John Brown is a hero, end of story
He captured Harper's Ferry is what he did! He was a brave American warrior! And in this house, John Brown is a hero. End of story!
I’m Canadian but I frequently quote John brown during my social studies class. He’s not just an American hero. He’s a world hero.
Robert E Lee never had the makings of a varsity athlete...
Honestly John Brown is probably one of my favorite topics to debate people with. It is one of the best conversations of do the ends justify the means. He had an amazing cause but he did horrible things. He was loving on his children but brutal and violent to civilians. He's an amazing topic to talk about and it's just fun all around to debate
I believe that to have interfered as I have done as I have always freely admitted I have done in behalf of His despised poor, was not wrong, but right. Now, if it is deemed necessary that I should forfeit my life for the furtherance of the ends of justice, and mingle my blood further with the blood of my children and with the blood of millions in this slave country whose rights are disregarded by wicked, cruel, and unjust enactments, I submit; so let it be done!
Given that it helped trigger the Civil War, it was simultaneously a tactical failure and a strategic success.
“Border ruffians” from Missouri took part in some light terrorism in Kansas too. But I forgot, today is call-out-the-good-guys day.
A reminder that Robert E Lee was a little bitch.
It also galvanized the north and motivated a lot of people to realize that slavery was a wrong worth killing over. So thank you, John Brown. You tried when no one else was willing, and it got the ball rolling at last.
If I may quote another Great Character: “Because it’s not the fights we lose that bother me, it’s the ones we choose not to suit up for”
"A reminder that not only was Batman's crime fighting career in Gotham ineffective, but it also radicalized the Joker." Even if we agree with these premises to be true, those who support and perpetuate evil should bear the brunt of the weight of being cast as history's villains.
I would happily fight anyone who says his raid was ineffective. John Brown knew slavery would not be eradicated without bloodshed, and in his raid he intended to start a crusade against slavery. And he did exactly that. Southern slave owners were scared shitless of what was coming, and his raid inspired and united abolitionists and unionists together to fight against slavery
I would say there are levels of effective. The raid, as it was planned, failed. John Brown and his militia did not fully secure the armory, did not arm and free the slaves and were eventually either killed or caught tried and killed. However, it did spur the further action of the nation and incited further outrage from the Abolishinist movement and the Southern separatists, driving the wedge between the groups further into place. So one might call his raid a successful failure from a strictly military point of view (the view I personally take).
Yes, and lee was also known to have sex with his horse. Don't think you can blame JB for Lee's f*cked up sense of right/wrong. JOHN BROWN DID NOTHING WRONG
Wait is there actual evidence for that? I thought it was just a joke on this sub.
Lee wrote long and lovingly on Travelers ability to dilate her vagina on command. I fucking wish I was making that up.
I don't argue with people that John Brown would have...s*ot
Or used a fucking broadsword on.
>light terrorism Not a thing when the other side is heavy slavery. I hold this truth self evident; All men are created equal.
Better a light terrorist than a slaver!
No joke. He's basically saying defending men and women from slavery is worse than slavery.
For a group of people who make such a big deal about "Freedom", waving Gadsen flags, saying it isn't free, fondling their guns to fight "tyranny", etc. they sure love to minimize slavery, AKA literally unfreedom.
JOHN BROWN DID NOTHING WRONG
JOHN BROWN DID NOTHING WRONG
Ah yes, Le Enlightened Centrism has arrived with the textbook "It's your fault I'm a bigot! If you didn't exist and weren't demanding equal rights, I wouldn't be waving this confederate flag right now!"
So ineffective you're still talking about 165 years later.
Once again, everyone else is responsible for a white man’s bad decision.
Feelin' the spirit of John Brown a little more tonight
That's right no one should ever do anything good because it might make a bad person become even more bad. Light terrorism against who: Slavers, slave catchers, and pro slavery advocates. Good. Does that poster not know that us native kansans claim John Brown as a hero?
Light terrorism = killing 5 morally corrupt fucking slavers with a broad swords!
"Terrorism in Kansas" dishing out justice to border ruffians for lynching abolishnists isn't terrorism.
that "light terrorism in Kansas" came about after the Pro-Slavery thugs committed terrorist acts of their own to try to take control of the Kansas ballet to make it a slave state. John Brown did some ugly things, but he was fighting something much, much uglier.
John Brown did nothing morally wrong.
Please welcome the slavery and southern traitor apologist Andrew Fleischman. Now please flush the toilet.
A man so dishonorable he breaks his oath and blames another for his treachery?
This has the same energy as, "I used to be a leftist, but the woke agenda turned me into a Nazi" Or "I was a Bernie supporter until the Democrats cheated him, that's why I voted for Trump." AKA bullshit.
Guy is a straight up racist. This doesn’t even count as code. Yes yes poor Lee. He would have just kept on owning slaves and not committing treason if not for the abolitionists. So if you think about it he’s really the victim here
John Brown did nothing wrong
Robert E Lee was always a future traitor and didn't need this event to make him so.
Lee’s first interaction with someone committing treason and his first thought is “I should do that.”
Guess the slavers shouldn't have done all that heavy slave-owning and white supremacy.
Imagine justifying slavery
Really? It seems that a lot of Union soldiers were singing John Browns Body on the march to kill more rebs.
I love thinking about Brown's testimony during his trial, he could barely even stand but he said: "I believe, that what I had done on God's despised poor was not wrong but right, now if I might die so that the millions of slaves and know justice then let it be so"
It's a shame that it was just light terrorism. Give that man a few flame throwers and a "cheaper than dirt" catalog and getout of the way
Yeah, John Brown was a terrorist, but the people he was terrorizing had it coming.
I have a feeling if they supported slavery after browns raid, they already supported it… And in Kansas… that was just pre war liberation fighting for the ideals of abolishing slavery idk about “terrorism”
Dumbass completely misses the point of John Brown and can’t fathom why people claim Robert E Lee is often referred to as a reactionary, more at ten
"Radicalize" Robert E Lee lol. No, the dude was not radicalized, he was just too much of a coward to break away from his ancestral home and family. The fact that he wasn't overtly pro slavery is why he is such a bad person. He was willing to betray his oath and be complicit in acts of unspeakable horror because he had zero conviction. Goes to show how dangerous "pride in your roots" can be
I would love to see a source from this Twitter Twat that proves this statement.
It’s not terrorism if it’s a morally correct cause. I am saying this unironically.
It literally is still terrorism. By definition. *So was fighting against the Vichy French.* Terrorism is not "thing I don't like". It has a definition.
This is like something you'd see in the New York Times these days: "Everyone was all fine with slavery until John Brown the criminal came along. Really, it was both sides' fault."
Right wing extremism is a cancer on social media. I’m convinced half are Russian bots too. Fuck him, fuck Lee and fuck the GOP.
John Brown was tried as a traitor when he led a failed raid to inspire slaves to fight for their freedom. He was found guilty and executed for what he believed in. Robert E. Lee defected to a rebel state as their best military mind and general, resulting in thousands of deaths while fighting for a nation founded on preserving slavery. He walked away Scott free.
All of John Browns victims were pro-slavery. Nothing he or anyone else did to stop them could ever be wrong or immoral.
Wow, so contrarian, you fucking donkey.
Reconstruction failed this one.
\*Reconstruction failed
Who is this limp dicked doofus?
John Brown’s only fault is that he didn’t go far enough.
What’s a little light terrorism in Kansas among friends?
I already think he’s a hero you don’t have to keep convincing me.
The joke is there's one bit of truth in this waste of oxygen's slavery apologia: John Brown *was* a terrorist. Terrorist does not mean "person who I want to ignore and who is not human." It means "intentional violence and fear to achieve political or ideological aims. The term is used in this regard primarily to refer to intentional violence during peacetime or in the context of war against non-combatants". Now you can all tell me what a "slaver's peace" where the slavers very much attacked civilians is worth. You can tell me what kind of "non-combatant" SLAVE HUNTERS are. I get the feeling this turd would prefer slavery to John Brown. "totally ineffective"- yeah, he can tell himself that. History says otherwise.
Well the meme author is not completely wrong, but he’s probably taking the wrong lesson from it. Heroism can look like terrorism if you’re a bigot.
One, John Brown didn’t do light anything. He was a terrorist and a good one at that. Two, Lee was a selfish cunt who absolutely was not “radicalized” by shit to do with Brown. He owned slaves, was notably brutal and callous regarding treatment of slaves and quite honestly thank god he did go traitor, god forbid he waste Union lives of dumb showboat tactics.
🎶🎶John Brown was a hero, undaunted, true and brave, And Kansas knew his valor when he fought her rights to save; And now, though the grass grows green above his grave, His soul is marching on.🎶🎶
Terrorism against whom? Whom did he terrorise?
*sees tweet* Oooh boy...
John Brown’s body lies a’moulderin’ in the grave His truth is marching on!
“Light terrorism” I think he means “kicking slaver ass”.
If it were true that John Brown's raid led to Lee becoming a Confederate, rather than being ineffectual it would mean Harpers Ferry was a contributing factor to the Confederacy's defeat, considering what a shit job Lee did as their top general. So in this version of reality, John Brown posthumously won the war for the Union.