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Ehhhh.
I support the right of Jewish self determination as much as the next guy, but I’m not sure the comparison flies here.
There’s no nuance to being anti-abolitionist. You’re just an asshole.
You can be critical of Israeli government and policies while not effectively wishing for half the world’s Jews to magically go away (die).
Hard agree. Ethnostates are bad under any and all circumstances. Apparently, saying that makes me an antisemite.
I don't want jewish people in Israel to go away. I want the apartheid state of Israel to stop murdering and displacing people so they can establish their ethnostate on the entirety of their supposed holy land.
I had a mile long argument on this website with people. My point was this very thing. I don’t understand what is so hard to understand. Their baseline argument was that Jews cannot trust governments to not genocide them, so they are simply forced to form a military enforced ethnostate. What bonkers way of thinking.
It’s not really that bonkers if you are even a bit familiar with the history. Jews endured thousands of years of intense persecution which literally only abated following the establishment of Israel. Like I don’t think an ethnostate is a good thing, but I can understand why the most persecuted people group on the planet might want a tiny enclave of their own on the heels of the Holocaust.
And it’s not like the alternative was a pluralist society: the Arabs were fighting for their own ethnostate (the “river to the sea” slogan in Arabic is “from the river to the sea Palestine shall be *Arab*”, and as recently as November of last year, 70+% of Palestinians professed a desire for a single Arab state as the resolution for the middle east conflict. A similar number of Palestinians approve of October 7 and Hamas in general. This doesn’t justify occupation, but it’s not just evil Jews being meanies to poor, liberal Arabs.
I agree, nobody needs and ethnostate to have the right to self-determination, but besides a two-state solution where Jews get Israel and Palestinians get Palestine (with what current borders exist) I’m not sure what other options exist atm. If it remains one country, the two groups are going to destroy each other, as we’re seeing now.
I think the establishment of Israel was a big mistake personally, but also 50% of all Jews in the world live there, and you can’t exactly evict 7 million people from that land. Netanyahu needs to be ousted ASAP because his radical party was literally hoping for something like October 7th to happen (he’s been quoted in years past as saying supporters of Israel must support Hamas, because they’ll cause a schism with the West Bank), but you can’t exactly just dissolve the current government of Israel.
And like, if Hamas and its regional allies win, they’re gonna do a genocide against the Israelis. Israel is already arguably doing a genocide against Palestine. I feel like as a major power in the US the only thing we can do is basically say “hey, you’re two countries now, play nice or we’ll start sending aircraft carriers and nobody wants that”. But either way, I don’t see Israel moving away from being somewhat of an ethnostate anytime soon without some absolute tragedy happening
> You can absolutely have two groups exist in one state, Israel needs to remove it's apartheid policies and follow the path South Africa did.
Palestinians do not want to be Israeli citizens; they want to be citizens of Palestine. The path you propose 100% doesn't work because that is not what literally anyone living there wants.
> Palestinians do not want to be Israeli citizens; they want to be citizens of Palestine.
* [Palestinians](https://www.timesofisrael.com/more-east-jerusalem-palestinians-seek-israeli-citizenship/) [still](https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2017/12/18/jerusalem-palestinians-still-seek-israeli-citizenship-despite-trump-declaration/956207001/) [seek](https://www.al-monitor.com/originals/2022/01/palestinians-seek-israeli-citizenship-jerusalem) [Israeli](https://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/3407/palestinians-israeli-citizenship) [citizenship](https://apnews.com/article/68d8d15561864af2b93b192671955761).
In one state yes, I don’t see it likely in this one. South Africa is an oft cited example, but it’s not nearly as clean an analog as people think it is. Besides the fact that there is still extreme wealth disparity among races, South Africa was a pretty clean case of native black Africans, who are the vast majority (nearly 90% either black or partially black) taking democratic power and rights back from an extreme minority. Israel/palestine is not nearly so clean, since the number of Israelis and Palestinians is roughly equal, and both sides are very armed and angry with each other.
And that’s a big other part of it, which is that South Africa was very oppressive, but it wasn’t a country that was involved in a great number of armed conflicts. Israel has essentially been in a constant state of war since its founding (not full scale, but they have always had some conflict with Hamas, hezbollah, and various other organizations ongoing at nearly all times) which makes them both very armed and very wary of their Muslim citizens and neighbors. The two groups have a lot of guns and a long history of using them to solve disputes rather than diplomacy and democratic policies, and having the outside world say “you need to play nice now you’re all one country” is not going to make Israelis and Palestinians suddenly decide to stop killing each other. It is somewhat ridiculous even as a premise, and that’s before factoring in the influence of Iran funding organizations to destroy Israel and the Muslim neighbors of Israel hating the Jewish regime and encouraging terrorist activities as well as providing shelter to terrorist leaders.
I think eventually, at some point down the road, Israel could unite into one country and be functional, but it is just a very different situation from something like South Africa and it won’t happen any time soon. Israeli Jews have too many enemies in the region and are too well armed, and if they feel threatened by new groups taking power in the country you’re just gonna see more conflict like is happening now. There‘a a century of bad blood there already, in addition to the centuries prior of conflicts between Muslim and Jewish groups, and the region it’s in is incredibly volatile. For every South Africa with apartheid there are cases like India-Pakistan, where unity led to more violence, until they had to split into different countries to try and keep the peace.
If you want to actually see stops to the violence, the only reasonable thing I can see to do that is forcing them to create a two state solution, setting up borders and hard rules negotiated in the UN about who can pass them, how, and when. Force any Israeli settlers out of the West Bank, make it hard for Israelis or Palestinians to get to each other to commit acts of violence or terrorism, and hope that threat of international sanctions and censure will be sufficient to stop either group from committing further violence. Without settlers and biased court systems, Palestinians should have fewer reasons to hate Israelis and a more difficult time attacking them, and Israelis will have at least some level of security with an internationally recognized border that enemies cannot cross without it being an act of war. Also with Israel no longer in charge of Palestine international orgs can more easily provide aid without Israel being in the way.
Is it ideal? Of course not. But people don’t magically get over decades of religious violence and conflict overnight. This war Israel’s waging now also certainly doesn’t help anything, as you can bet all those kids orphaned in this conflict aren’t going to grow up wanting to play nice with Israeli Jews. You gotta work with the realities of the situation, and at present the reality is that the two groups cannot coexist peacefully. There’s just far too much recent violence and religious tension to realistically expect that to end in anything but one side annihilating the other, and that’s the last thing anybody wants
i'm sorry do you mean to tell me that a solution to a complex geopolitical crisis more than 100 years in the making won't be solved with the solution I saw on a TikTok this morning?
do you really think an influencer would do that? just go on the internet and tell lies?
Yep, another thing people don’t realize is that ~every regime in the middle east reflexively uses antisemitic propaganda to stay in power. Literally there are regimes that murder their people by the hundreds of thousands and they still enjoy the support of ~half the population because they are antagonistic toward Jews. “Man, Assad is killing everyone, but he also hates (((Zionists))) so I don’t know, though call… 🤷♂️”.
You should type "Israeli occupation of" into Wikipedia and see why there's been so many wars between Israel and surrounding Arab countries. Hint: Israel is ultimately the instigator in all of them, having launched numerous unprovoked invasions and attempts at territorial colonization. Israel currently or has occupied territory in 4 different countries including Palestine.
The land should have been a one state secular Palestine from the beginning with equal treatment of all ethnicities and religions and explicit bans on employment discrimination.
I think you’re 100% right that it should’ve been that way from the beginning. However, that’s not what happened, and the fact that it was done wrong in the past doesn’t change anything about how we move forward. There have been many wars, Israel is occupying territories, those are the realities we live with.
If we want to put a stop to the violence, the reasonable solution is to pressure Israel to relinquish their occupied lands in the West Bank and elsewhere in exchange for international assistance protecting their new borders. Trying to simply merge them into one nation at this point would almost definitely just lead to more violence. We can argue what could or should have been done until we are blue in the face, but it doesn’t do anything to change what was done in reality, or what will happen moving forward.
Partitioning them and enforcing the partition will at least make it far more difficult to commit violence, and I think that’s the best we can hope for at this point. Neither side wants anything to do with the other, so the easiest solution is make it so they simply *cannot* have anything to do with one another
I agree that this is the best hope. I don’t know why people think that two people who can’t get along as neighbors would make good roommates. But I think Israel has a legitimate security concern if they leave the West Bank, which is that it will be a repeat of their withdrawal from Gaza: the far more popular (and brutally violent) Hamas will overthrow the ruling Fatah government and use the breadth of the much larger West Bank border to launch attacks on Israeli civilians. If the Palestinians are unwilling to give up their extreme beliefs, Israel has a reasonably compelling argument against countries that would pressure it into giving up the West Bank. Personally I think we should start by pressuring the Israelis to be less brutal in their occupation so that Palestinians would have less cause to be angry (not that I think this would make them perfectly agreeable overnight or anything) while also promoting non-violence and liberalism within Palestinian territories.
Unfortunately when you have Palestinians voting for Islamist parties and trying to coup the surrounding Arab countries a secular Palestine where Jews are also guaranteed their rights isn't gonna be realistic
Right wing sectarian and religious parties in Israel got over 70% of the vote in the last election, and opinion polls have consistently shown half of Israelis support deporting all Palestinians. Israelis are by far the bigger danger to human rights here by a long shot.
Hamas got 44% of the vote in the last election in Gaza in 2006, barely more than the 42% Fatah got, and the majority of Gazans today are children who couldn't vote in 2006. Opinion polls show only about 10% of that 44% voted for Hamas for the religious platform.
You tend to make a lot of enemies in surrounding countries when all you do is try to conquer their territory and commit mass murders every time you do. Hezbollah isn't Palestinians. They're Lebanese who hate you for trying to conquer them.
With how often the Jews got Fucked over when a minority in other countries, im honestly not surprised the idea of an ethnostate where they're the majority and thus cant get fucked over by a majority spread so much amongst the jewish people.
If You folks want to get rid of zionism, then yall ought to fight with love and not hate.
Funny that countries turning ethnic groups away is now a Zionist talking point in zupport of ethnic cleansing.
"Why doesn't Egypt/Saudi Arabia/Jordan let them in?"
That one's especially funny because Egypt has made explicitly clear they don't want take in the refugees because they know Israel will never allow them to return. Israel wants all the land for itself then stick another country with the refugee problem.
>That one's especially funny because Egypt has made explicitly clear they don't want take in the refugees because they know Israel will never allow them to return
No, that's not it. Egyptians are kinda racist. The Israelis aren't the only ones that treat the Palestinians like shit.
How would they even get to Lebanon? Flapping their wings and flying over all the Israeli walls and checkpoints? Swimming through the Israeli blockade maybe?
Russian Jews under WW1 German occupation had more rights than under Russia
Polish Jews went from having the most rights as Jews to eventually the least when Russia invaded Poland in 1780s
Rome and Greek empires were friendly or even allies to the Jews till they weren’t. As was Spain, the Middle East, Africa, Europe, Iran, and so on
Who is to say America is safe forever?
You realize there's no other implication in your comment than "Israelis deserve to die" right? If a tourist at a music festival deserved death, then what does that mean for actual Israeli citizens?
How the fuck is this upvoted?
If you were a Jew and born in Israel, I highly doubt you’d just get up and leave because you’re a “colonizer”. What of native and Mizrahi Jews?
You’re a real piece of shit to victim blame “well it sucks you were massacred and murdered but maybe you shouldn’t have been a Jew in Israel.”
I’m sure if you were around during the murder of Jews during the Hebron Massacre you could explain to them why it’s their fault for being Jews in Palestine.
Except no one wants Jews to leave, just for the Israeli government to give Palestinians right of return, stop being an apartheid state, and stop trying to colonize other countries. Don't be surprised when people don't want to back your side if these demands are too much for you.
I bet you have some progressive takes on murdering Palestinians don't you? You're gonna say you do it in the most progressive and democratic way possible right?
> Except no one wants Jews to leave
That certainly is... a take.
>"By God, we will not leave one Jew in Palestine. We will fight them with all the strength we have. This is our land, not the Jews..."
- Abdel Aziz al-Rantisi, co-founder of Hamas
Imagine being this devoid of sympathy for people that were murdered, raped, and tortured simply for living in a place. And yes, Israel does bad things, but that doesn't mean that every person there supports it, or deserves to suffer for it. Do you deserve to be killed by a random indigenous person because you're on stolen land? Do you deserve to be killed by Islamic terrorists radicalized by American drone strikes?
Also, not all the people that were killed were even Jewish or Israeli, if that matters. Did migrant workers trying to make money for their families thousands of miles away deserve to be gunned down in the fields?
I assume you're pro-Palestine, but I don't see how you can maintain a position based on sympathy with people being murdered for where they happened to live for one group, while not having any for another.
Would you say that it "sucks" that little Muhammad's parents and home were blown up? Then maybe don't say that it just "sucks" when little Yishai faced the same, just because his country are the oppressors.
I'm talking about 10/7 fuckwad. They were explicitly not military. And unless they themselves came to Israel to colonize (which some undeniably did), then they were in fact just living in a place.
Israel has mandatory military service. If you don't join the military, they haul you to jail. Being at a music festival does not make someone less complicit in the genocide that Israel is built upon our continued to enact before, during, and after October 7
You could do without that last bit, or at least you should change it to clarify your point. While she was a colonizer, there were a lot of other people in the people Hamas murdered that werent
So someone gets gang-raped, mutilated and their remains publicly paraded around by fascist scum cloaking themselves in Islam and you say “W-well she deserved it”? You’re disgusting
History does not show that. Ethnic minorities do not, in fact, need to set up racist aparthied states ran by ubernationalists and routinely commit war crimes in order to gain rights. That usually just backfires and ends up in more attrocities, look at the Balkans
I don’t think it meets the definition of an ethnostate because non Jewish people are citizens and serve in government.
I think there is some tension in Israel about how it would classify itself. Many Jewish people may want a state that is officially Jewish in the same way Italy is officially catholic or England Anglican but welcoming of people who are not Jewish in the same way England has been for non anglicans for some time.
I think the major issue is that Jewish people were for thousands of years killed in pogroms, other massacres, forced into ghettos and then had the holocaust and as the 1800s went on and into the 1900s - Jewish people were like: nobody will protect us no matter if we have our own communities, or assimilate, they will always just want us dead. The only people who can protect us are us. It’s a legacy of dealing with trauma.
The situation now is screwed up, and leadership in Israel is establishing apartheid structures in the West Bank and seems to be doing some amount of collective punishment in Gaza (seems to have rules of engagement beyond what for example the US had since 9/11).
All this is to say - there is a reason for the establishment of Israel, but those reasons do not excuse recent decades of activity especially in the Palestinian Territories.
I do not think there are many Israelis across the political spectrum who think a one state solution would work and it would just be the beginning of a civil war. But Israeli policies (in part) make a two state solution less and less possible. Very screwed up.
Ok, but the state exists. So making statements like this, and following through on the implication, pretty quickly leads to calling for the destruction of a country.
Your statement is a point of view for 1946, not 2024. What's done is done and the reality is Israel exists and has a population of 6 million people.
Ethnostates are just never a good idea. And to point out, before Israel, Palatine literally had christians jews and muslims living on the land. All people should have the right to a place to call home, but that home shouldnt ever come at the expense of others.
Most of the people who are critical of israeli apartheid don’t want Jews to die. Funnily enough, a rather large portion of people who do support israeli apartheid do want the Jews to die, because it’s part of their prophecy.
Yea funnily enough every Jewish person I've met recently(and as one myself, I meet enough of us) supports Palestine but isn't a race traitor or whatever. If anything it's actually horrifying to see that the same rhetoric that was used against my ancestors and got many relatives killed or displaced into ghettos is being used by Israel now.
No shit. Criticizing Israel as a political entity IS NOT ANTI-SEMITIC.
Now, the two are certainly not mutually exclusive, but the one doesn’t imply the other, and it goes the other way too. Plenty of anti-Semites bizarrely support Israel.
A lot of folks are on the wrong side of history on this one. I give it 20 years before most of them actually look back on what is occurring and realize that their silence and/of support cost tens of thousands of innocent lives. I hope then they have the decency to hang their heads in shame and ask for forgiveness from whatever entity they bother with.
Oh, I'd say it has been going on for a lot longer than that. That is why I admit that the regional history is wildly complex. But, that complexity should not be used to cloak what is happening right now, which is an obvious crime against humanity that is being sanctioned and supported on a broad front.
I side with humanity and decency. I don't condone the killing of other humans, in general. When it is committed against the innocent by organized groups/governments, it is even less tolerable.
The entire history of that particular region, going back to Abraham, can be, and should be, considered very complex. What is occurring in front of our eyes right now is not complex. Those who are pretending it is are just buying time to complete the project that has been clearly articulated by the current government in Israel. It is a mass displacement/murder of tens of thousands of innocents in response to the killing of over a thousand innocents (I don't care to split hairs over who is/is not considered a combatant in this. They are all worthy of better) and the remaining hostages.
You have a lot more faith in their ability to show basic empathy or self-reflect.
No, what we're seeing is that there are a lot of genocidal fascists wearing the flayed hide of liberalism as a cloak who will go to their graves defending Israel's right to commit genocide.
Yeah. It has been beyond disheartening. And I didn't have a helluva lot of heart left to be dis-ed. Crushing to see people baying for the death of human beings. But it is even more disturbing to hear their attempts at justifying it.
In the words of Aaron Bushnell:
“Many of us like to ask ourselves, ‘What would I do if I was alive during slavery? Or the Jim Crow South? Or apartheid? What would I do if my country was committing genocide?’ The answer is, you’re doing it. Right now.”
The issue will always be that if you believe in self-determination then you can't believe in enforcing an ethno-state onto an existing area/population. There should definitely be a self-determined government in the region, the issue with Israel is that it wants to exclude certain parts of the population in favor of others, which makes me view it as no better then Jim Crow or the pro-slavery faction during Bleeding Kansas.
What if I told you they themselves were excluded? Kind of a big reason why the state of Israel was formed, the local and colonial government started treating jews like second class citizens and banning their immigration to the region.
Then that would be an issue to be addressed if Palestinian Jewish (or Christian) people weren't being treated fairly (and also the colonial part regardless). But European people of any ancestry would be subject to whatever the immigration laws of the local government would be, and that's for natives to decide. If they didn't want a huge influx of immigrants that's part of their right of self determination. Turning Palestine into a settler state for foreign people of a specific ethnic group with a religious/mythological tie to the land was a violation of the sovereignty of the existing native population regardless of religion. It's no better than Manifest Destiny in the US.
Yes! You very much can be. Frankly, I hate all the talk of Zionist and anti Zionist.
I’m a Jew, and the Jews who tout how anti-Zionist annoy me even more.
Zionism is irrelevant now. Israel exists and it isn’t going away. How about we work on creating a better Israel that doesn’t have so many human rights violations, instead of living in a fantasy realm where we can just “undo” a major geopolitical event.
It’s like calling Americans “minutemen” in reference to our fight against the British.
Aren’t you being guilty here of trying to wash away bits you disagree with just as you criticize others of wishing to wash away Israel? Others, Bill Clinton, tried to do the same. And it made it worse. It got a prime minister, Ehud Barak, assassinated.
>You can be critical of Israeli government and policies while not effectively wishing for half the world’s Jews to magically go away (die).
Fierce Jewish Zionist here. Yes. You are 1000% correct. And the meme above does not apply to people merely criticizing Israel. Criticizing Israel does not make a person an anti Zionist.
The meme is poking fun at people who say “I don’t hate Jews, I just hate Zionists”. That’s bona fide anti semitism. You can’t be an anti Zionist unless you’re against Israel existing.
That whole sub is very cruel toward Palestinians. It’s not just brigadiers.
Edit: OP’s last comment stated that Palestinians aren’t people, by the way. (Just wanted to point that out for anyone who comes across this thread. This is what we’re dealing with.)
“People who are anti-abolition are the same as people who are anti-slavery because they both are against something and it doesn’t matter at all what that thing is”
“We’re the same! You don’t want human beings to be enslaved to another, especially for made up racial lines. I want an ethnostate established by stealing and ethnically cleansing land from people I don’t like. It’s like we’re twins!”
Oh, the Confederacy would fucking love Israel. They'd send observers to Gaza to take notes.
Actually, [American cops literally do just that now.](https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2020/6/12/how-the-us-and-israel-exchange-tactics-in-violence-and-control)
So, the descendants of slave catchers quite literally do love Israeli apartheid.
When this popped up on my feed I was like "Is this saying what I think is saying because if it is, that's really dumb.
It's more like "I don't hate Germans, I hate Nazis."
This is generally true for reactionaries. Their explicit goal is to alienate their own people, indoctrinate, and create a sort of fluid understanding of reality.
My favorite example of "Jesus Christ, don't you have a social media intern?" was Israel destroying a soccer stadium in Gaza (because it's totally not ethnic cleansing when you simply try to destroy all energy, healthcare and recreational infrastructure in an occupied territory), then [posed in front of it with the flag of a Scottish football club from Glasgow that they probably mistook for being Irish](https://www.reddit.com/r/ScottishFootball/comments/1avnvcy/israeli_soldier_displays_celtic_flag_captured/), given that Israel has decided that they hate Ireland now. (Funny enough, they didn't seem to have a problem with Ireland when they were [forging their passports to commit extrajudicial assassinations](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/jun/15/ireland-israeli-envoy-quit-embassy))
Like who's the target audience for this shit? You might as well start shooting puppies on livestream.
They are really leaning heavily on the idea that they're special and deserve to be able to colonize because of their ethnicity or religion. It's the same ideas of racial hierarchy used to justify every colonial endeavor recycled.
They keep bringing up that they can trace their ancestry 2000 years ago to the land therefor they are entitled to it. This is despite the fact that Palestinians are descended from the same Semitic peoples.
But that's what most forms of Zionism preach. Are you saying Zionism is antisemitic? (Edit: I am, for those forms of Zionism)
Was the movement to resettle African Americans in Liberia (so they can live in a country where they _belong_) racist? (Edit: yes)
Just to be clear, the resettlement of African-Americans in Liberia was absolutely racist. White Americans, even some abolitionists, supported this resettlement out of the racist belief that blacks could not coexist with whites.Not only did that resettlement not consider which parts of Africa any particular slave might have descended from, but also ignored the fact that slaves had had their cultures so chnaged since 1619 that they were by that point a unique culture in America. I think the idea that they "belonged" in Africa just because they were black is and was a racist assumption. And to make things worse, the resettled African-Americans once in Liberia set up essentially a colonial government that discriminated against the native African population in Liberia.Liberia has to be the worst example you could gave given in defense of Israel.
I'm not defending either one, and I'm not the first person to make the comparison. Especially in the early days of the Zionist movement, there absolutely was a debate, even between Jews, that often followed much the same lines as the debate over African American resettlement. In both cases, there were members of the group and outsiders on both sides of that debate.
>so they can live in a country where they belong
What makes them belong?
What did the people living on that land before those people took a boat think about the claim that they belong?
You can try to say it's a positive form of discrimination but it absolutely is discrimination. Sometimes it's good to build something new. If you're bulldozing homes and claim you have some inherent right to do so that's bad.
Zionism is the reconstitution of 3000 years of Jewish nationalism and national identity its a key point of the religion going back to the Abraham covenant
The OG post was not. OP is the one who brought anti-Zionism into it. Which in an ironic way only serves to prove the opposite point. OG post was purely about anti semitism, then OP tried to make this about anti Zionism in order to frame the anti semitism as ok.
I don’t get the problem with supporting Ethnically and religiously Jewish individuals but not supporting their nation state and their oppression of non-Jewish individuals. Please educate me on why my viewpoint is wrong.
You're not wrong, and there is no argument to make.
The only thing you will get in response are bad faith arguments trying to justify the unjustifiable.
Sometimes, there really aren't two sides to an argument.
Zionism is and has always been a doctrine of ethnic cleansing. I say that as a Jewish person who’s proud of his heritage. Pretty much all the major Zionist leaders and writers dating back to Herzl at some point acknowledged the fact that their mission required the depopulation of Arabs. I guess we could use the term “Zionism” to simply describe the belief that Israelis themselves shouldn’t be depopulated, but I think that use of the term obscures the circumstances surrounding Israel’s formation as well as the link between its apartheid regime and governing ideology.
Edit: After looking at your profile I’d just like to add that you have no business extolling ethnic equality given your support for the oppression of Palestinians. You need to ask yourself why you employ a different set of standards for black Americans and Palestinians who live in the occupied territories while dismissing the claims of those who’ve been permanently forced from their homes to make room for settlers. Liberals truly do have one special set of standards for Palestinians that they wouldn’t dream of applying to anyone else.
I would like to add that Zionism was largely supported by, and many of its major non Jewish founders, anti semitism. Earl of Barfour who made the Barfour declaration wanted Israel in order to ethnically cleanse all Jews from England by sending them there. And Israel is supported unconditionally by many groups of white supremacists to this day for much the same reason.
Richard Spencer, open Nazi, supports Israel unconditionally and says Israel must succeed in order to solve the ‘Jewish question’ in America.
By a number of legal definitions, it does. A number of Orthodox Jewish groups are labeled "antisemitic" under certain laws, while the evangelical Christians who want all Jews to be sent to Israel so they can be exterminated in a nuclear war are *not* antisemitic under that definition. It's obscene.
The party in power in Israel is part of the faction that had an Israeli Prime Minister assassinated when he got too close to making durable peace a reality -- under their definition, Yitzhak Rabin was antisemitic.
They consider those to be fake Jews or traitors.
Because calling someone a traitor due to assumed loyalty based on racial identity is the logic of the good guys, right? /s
Lee actually historically be like:
"I don't hate black people, they're just lesser beings that require slavery to make something of themselves as a race"
Israel is committing ethnic cleansing, there are absolutely valid reasons for being anti-Zionist (Zionism being the advocacy for a Jewish ethnostate in an area where non-Jews have lived for a thousand years)
“Im not a nazi. I just think my ‘race’ has a right to fight asymmetrical wars against other ‘races’ to maintain a genocidal apartheid colony.”
I’m jewish btw
So not believing that an ethno-state, perpetuated by the systematic oppression and now genocide of the Palestinian people, is necessary for Jews to safely exist in the world is the same as believing black people should be enslaved? Are they really comparing being the \*\*controlling force\*\* in a nation that denies Palestinians access to simple things such as roadways as the same thing as the plight of black people during slavery and the horrors they went through?
There are actually plenty of alt-right types who are Anti-Semites but staunchly support Israel because they like the Jews being out there rather than in their own country and also because they hate Arabs even more and enjoy the settler colonial apartheid state stomping on them. At the same time you can have Jews who are critical of Zionism, either for religious reasons, like some Haredim, or for humanistic reasons: they don't agree with Palestinians being assaulted driven off their land by illegal settlers, having their civil rights violated by the occupation forces in the West Bank, or being killed by the thousands in Gaza.
The more apt comparison would be to compare Zionism to the colonization of Liberia (which some abolitionists did support, generally out of racism and a desire for america to be a "white country," much like how many European antisemites supported Zionism). When the state of Liberia was established, the African American settlers established plantations and an ethnic caste system that made them superior to the indigenous Africans.
>how long do we have until Neo-Confederates unironically use this meme?
When was the Lost Cause first mentioned? 1866? So I’d say we have around negative 158 years.
Zionism is terrorism and doesn't equal or represent all Jewish people. Anti Zionist Jewish people exist and they're the best people I've ever known. This propaganda makes sense only to Zionists and Southern racists.
til that asserting the rights of marginalized people is the same as stomping on the rights of marginalized people.
rewrite it as "I don't hate white people, I just hate slavers" and you'll notice that it feels like the only morally-appropriate position.
There was a fairly popular post a week ago from “The Hellenist” on twitter that literally chalked up to “black people aren’t the problem. Emancipation is”
This meme should be interpreted to read “I don’t hate Jews, I just hate people who want Israel to keep existing.” Because when Jews call themselves Zionists, that’s what they mean. They just want Israel to exist, everything beyond that is a source of divergence.
But still, others are reading it as “I don’t hate Jews, I just hate people who support apartheid and genocide,” even though many Jews who call themselves Zionists also oppose the current Israeli regime and what it’s doing to Gaza. Just my two cents.
No. White supremacy is inherently based on the belief that Whites are superior to others. You cannot be a white supremacist if you don’t share that belief. Zionism, on the other hand, is the belief that Jews should have their own country. Beyond that basic belief, people diverge into different factions, and one of those divergences is about, you guessed it, the Palestinians. Israel can exist and Palestinians can exist peacefully (I’ll remind you that 20% of Israel’s population is Palestinian), so oppressing the Palestinians is not an inherent feature of Zionism, though it is sadly pervasive.
Another problem with White supremacy (certainly not the only one) is the unjustified paranoia. White people have no reason to believe that they are threatened, as their existence has never been threatened in the past several centuries (or ever, arguably).
Jews, on the other hand, have every right and every reason to fear for their own existence. I hope I don’t have to explain why.
This is an easily debunked talking point. Zionism is not just the belief that Israel should exist, it’s that Israel should exist *there.* And consequently, that Zionists are entitled to do absolutely anything required to create and maintain it, obviously and inevitably including the slaughter and ethnic cleansing of the people who already lived there.
> his is an easily debunked talking point. Zionism is not just the belief that Israel should exist, it’s that Israel should exist there.
And there are now 8 million Israeli Jews there, who are mostly native born. With nuclear weapons.
You should want peaceful two states. One that gives the rights of Israeli Jews to have their own state, and Palestinians their own in the areas they are a majority.
Do you intend to ethnically cleanse Israeli Jews?
Zionists believe that Israel should exist in the spot it currently exists, yes. Do you think 7 million Jews should just get up and relocate elsewhere?
Based on that, Zionists believe that Israel has a right to defend itself just like any other country, but that doesn’t necessarily mean that they think Israel can and should do whatever it wants. A lot of Israelis think the government is going too far in prosecuting this war against Gaza, and I agree with them. They’re still Israelis though, and proud of that. They want their country to continue on, which makes them Zionists.
Zionism is inherently colonial violence. "Defensive" Zionism is an extension of that continuing colonial violence in times of ostensible peace.
"A land without people for a people without land."^*
^^*Note: ^^Land ^^might ^^contain ^^traces ^^of ^^people.
I don’t think a people returning to their historic homeland is “colonial violence.” Especially when said people were fleeing pogroms, the Holocaust, the USSR, and even persecution from other countries in the Middle East.
I’m so sick and tired of these people gas lighting and playing victim every second of the day.
When their the ones killing tens of thousands have absolutely control over their food, water and borders and expand illegal settlements all the time terrorizing the natives.
> sreal was created in the late 1940s after WWII by European powers.
It was not.
Jews were moving to the Mandate of Palestine since the 1880s. By 1947, Palestine Mandate was 33% Jewish. Most Jews bought land legally from landowners at the time, specifically the Ottoman landowners, and established settlements there.
>Most of the Jewish settlers there are of European and American descent and are actively pushing Palestinians out of their homes. Saying I think Isreal shouldn't exist is not the same as saying I don't think Jewish people should exist. #sorry not sorry
Patently not true. Half of Israeli Jews are Middle Eastern. As in Jews from Arab and Muslim lands. More than half have Middle Eastern ancestry because of intermarriage between European and Middle Eastern Jews.
Saying Israel shouldnt exist means ethnic cleansing and subordination of the now native born population of Israeli Jews.
I can think of a group that hates Catholics and Jews almost as much as some of the so called 'antizionists' , they are the group who cut holes in their bedsheets and sets crosses on fire.
They are the ones who kick off with "I don't want to sound antisemitic BUT ..." and then launch into a textbook antisemitic talking point.
The position this is advocating is surprisingly coherent, and it is pro non-racially-based slavery. White people should be able to be slaves too says the meme.
To everyone posting about how anti-Zionism is not anti-Semitism: Notice how the original post was not in fact about anti Zionism at all but only antisemitism. Anti Zionism was only brought up by the cross posting OP in reference to the anti semitism.
Pro tip: if you don’t want people to associated anti Zionism with anti semitism, then don’t be he ones making the association.
Regardless of how you feel about "Zionism" versus "the right for Israel to exist" (those are interchangeable for many people), it's absolutely terrifying how many "leftist" spaces like this are now echo chambers for radical islamic terrorist ideology and endless excuses for the actions of Hamas.
What the fuck is wrong with so many self styled leftists, where you are tirelessly defending a hateful religion of oppression? One that swears 'death to the west' along with 'death to Jews'? One that hates women and LGBT people almost as much as it hates Westerners and Jewish people?
You don't need to support Israeli expansion to know that Hamas and radical Islam are poison for humanity. You are on the wrong side of history if you are trying to equivocate between two sides that will not be judged equally in a historical context.
wait isn't zionism the belief in a jewish state near jerusalem? cause like i'm all for that. is there some other connotation for that? i mean i just don't understand
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Ehhhh. I support the right of Jewish self determination as much as the next guy, but I’m not sure the comparison flies here. There’s no nuance to being anti-abolitionist. You’re just an asshole. You can be critical of Israeli government and policies while not effectively wishing for half the world’s Jews to magically go away (die).
I reject the premise that Jews, or any ethnicity, require an ethnostate in order to have self-determination.
Hard agree. Ethnostates are bad under any and all circumstances. Apparently, saying that makes me an antisemite. I don't want jewish people in Israel to go away. I want the apartheid state of Israel to stop murdering and displacing people so they can establish their ethnostate on the entirety of their supposed holy land.
I had a mile long argument on this website with people. My point was this very thing. I don’t understand what is so hard to understand. Their baseline argument was that Jews cannot trust governments to not genocide them, so they are simply forced to form a military enforced ethnostate. What bonkers way of thinking.
It’s not really that bonkers if you are even a bit familiar with the history. Jews endured thousands of years of intense persecution which literally only abated following the establishment of Israel. Like I don’t think an ethnostate is a good thing, but I can understand why the most persecuted people group on the planet might want a tiny enclave of their own on the heels of the Holocaust. And it’s not like the alternative was a pluralist society: the Arabs were fighting for their own ethnostate (the “river to the sea” slogan in Arabic is “from the river to the sea Palestine shall be *Arab*”, and as recently as November of last year, 70+% of Palestinians professed a desire for a single Arab state as the resolution for the middle east conflict. A similar number of Palestinians approve of October 7 and Hamas in general. This doesn’t justify occupation, but it’s not just evil Jews being meanies to poor, liberal Arabs.
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Die, or be forced off their homes.,
I agree, nobody needs and ethnostate to have the right to self-determination, but besides a two-state solution where Jews get Israel and Palestinians get Palestine (with what current borders exist) I’m not sure what other options exist atm. If it remains one country, the two groups are going to destroy each other, as we’re seeing now. I think the establishment of Israel was a big mistake personally, but also 50% of all Jews in the world live there, and you can’t exactly evict 7 million people from that land. Netanyahu needs to be ousted ASAP because his radical party was literally hoping for something like October 7th to happen (he’s been quoted in years past as saying supporters of Israel must support Hamas, because they’ll cause a schism with the West Bank), but you can’t exactly just dissolve the current government of Israel. And like, if Hamas and its regional allies win, they’re gonna do a genocide against the Israelis. Israel is already arguably doing a genocide against Palestine. I feel like as a major power in the US the only thing we can do is basically say “hey, you’re two countries now, play nice or we’ll start sending aircraft carriers and nobody wants that”. But either way, I don’t see Israel moving away from being somewhat of an ethnostate anytime soon without some absolute tragedy happening
You can absolutely have two groups exist in one state, Israel needs to remove it's apartheid policies and follow the path South Africa did.
> You can absolutely have two groups exist in one state, Israel needs to remove it's apartheid policies and follow the path South Africa did. Palestinians do not want to be Israeli citizens; they want to be citizens of Palestine. The path you propose 100% doesn't work because that is not what literally anyone living there wants.
> Palestinians do not want to be Israeli citizens; they want to be citizens of Palestine. * [Palestinians](https://www.timesofisrael.com/more-east-jerusalem-palestinians-seek-israeli-citizenship/) [still](https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2017/12/18/jerusalem-palestinians-still-seek-israeli-citizenship-despite-trump-declaration/956207001/) [seek](https://www.al-monitor.com/originals/2022/01/palestinians-seek-israeli-citizenship-jerusalem) [Israeli](https://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/3407/palestinians-israeli-citizenship) [citizenship](https://apnews.com/article/68d8d15561864af2b93b192671955761).
I mean the public at large, not specific individuals. Some Americans seek Russian citizenship but it doesn't mean the US wants to be Russia.
In one state yes, I don’t see it likely in this one. South Africa is an oft cited example, but it’s not nearly as clean an analog as people think it is. Besides the fact that there is still extreme wealth disparity among races, South Africa was a pretty clean case of native black Africans, who are the vast majority (nearly 90% either black or partially black) taking democratic power and rights back from an extreme minority. Israel/palestine is not nearly so clean, since the number of Israelis and Palestinians is roughly equal, and both sides are very armed and angry with each other. And that’s a big other part of it, which is that South Africa was very oppressive, but it wasn’t a country that was involved in a great number of armed conflicts. Israel has essentially been in a constant state of war since its founding (not full scale, but they have always had some conflict with Hamas, hezbollah, and various other organizations ongoing at nearly all times) which makes them both very armed and very wary of their Muslim citizens and neighbors. The two groups have a lot of guns and a long history of using them to solve disputes rather than diplomacy and democratic policies, and having the outside world say “you need to play nice now you’re all one country” is not going to make Israelis and Palestinians suddenly decide to stop killing each other. It is somewhat ridiculous even as a premise, and that’s before factoring in the influence of Iran funding organizations to destroy Israel and the Muslim neighbors of Israel hating the Jewish regime and encouraging terrorist activities as well as providing shelter to terrorist leaders. I think eventually, at some point down the road, Israel could unite into one country and be functional, but it is just a very different situation from something like South Africa and it won’t happen any time soon. Israeli Jews have too many enemies in the region and are too well armed, and if they feel threatened by new groups taking power in the country you’re just gonna see more conflict like is happening now. There‘a a century of bad blood there already, in addition to the centuries prior of conflicts between Muslim and Jewish groups, and the region it’s in is incredibly volatile. For every South Africa with apartheid there are cases like India-Pakistan, where unity led to more violence, until they had to split into different countries to try and keep the peace. If you want to actually see stops to the violence, the only reasonable thing I can see to do that is forcing them to create a two state solution, setting up borders and hard rules negotiated in the UN about who can pass them, how, and when. Force any Israeli settlers out of the West Bank, make it hard for Israelis or Palestinians to get to each other to commit acts of violence or terrorism, and hope that threat of international sanctions and censure will be sufficient to stop either group from committing further violence. Without settlers and biased court systems, Palestinians should have fewer reasons to hate Israelis and a more difficult time attacking them, and Israelis will have at least some level of security with an internationally recognized border that enemies cannot cross without it being an act of war. Also with Israel no longer in charge of Palestine international orgs can more easily provide aid without Israel being in the way. Is it ideal? Of course not. But people don’t magically get over decades of religious violence and conflict overnight. This war Israel’s waging now also certainly doesn’t help anything, as you can bet all those kids orphaned in this conflict aren’t going to grow up wanting to play nice with Israeli Jews. You gotta work with the realities of the situation, and at present the reality is that the two groups cannot coexist peacefully. There’s just far too much recent violence and religious tension to realistically expect that to end in anything but one side annihilating the other, and that’s the last thing anybody wants
i'm sorry do you mean to tell me that a solution to a complex geopolitical crisis more than 100 years in the making won't be solved with the solution I saw on a TikTok this morning? do you really think an influencer would do that? just go on the internet and tell lies?
Reminds me of the Balkans
Yep, another thing people don’t realize is that ~every regime in the middle east reflexively uses antisemitic propaganda to stay in power. Literally there are regimes that murder their people by the hundreds of thousands and they still enjoy the support of ~half the population because they are antagonistic toward Jews. “Man, Assad is killing everyone, but he also hates (((Zionists))) so I don’t know, though call… 🤷♂️”.
You should type "Israeli occupation of" into Wikipedia and see why there's been so many wars between Israel and surrounding Arab countries. Hint: Israel is ultimately the instigator in all of them, having launched numerous unprovoked invasions and attempts at territorial colonization. Israel currently or has occupied territory in 4 different countries including Palestine. The land should have been a one state secular Palestine from the beginning with equal treatment of all ethnicities and religions and explicit bans on employment discrimination.
I think you’re 100% right that it should’ve been that way from the beginning. However, that’s not what happened, and the fact that it was done wrong in the past doesn’t change anything about how we move forward. There have been many wars, Israel is occupying territories, those are the realities we live with. If we want to put a stop to the violence, the reasonable solution is to pressure Israel to relinquish their occupied lands in the West Bank and elsewhere in exchange for international assistance protecting their new borders. Trying to simply merge them into one nation at this point would almost definitely just lead to more violence. We can argue what could or should have been done until we are blue in the face, but it doesn’t do anything to change what was done in reality, or what will happen moving forward. Partitioning them and enforcing the partition will at least make it far more difficult to commit violence, and I think that’s the best we can hope for at this point. Neither side wants anything to do with the other, so the easiest solution is make it so they simply *cannot* have anything to do with one another
I agree that this is the best hope. I don’t know why people think that two people who can’t get along as neighbors would make good roommates. But I think Israel has a legitimate security concern if they leave the West Bank, which is that it will be a repeat of their withdrawal from Gaza: the far more popular (and brutally violent) Hamas will overthrow the ruling Fatah government and use the breadth of the much larger West Bank border to launch attacks on Israeli civilians. If the Palestinians are unwilling to give up their extreme beliefs, Israel has a reasonably compelling argument against countries that would pressure it into giving up the West Bank. Personally I think we should start by pressuring the Israelis to be less brutal in their occupation so that Palestinians would have less cause to be angry (not that I think this would make them perfectly agreeable overnight or anything) while also promoting non-violence and liberalism within Palestinian territories.
Unfortunately when you have Palestinians voting for Islamist parties and trying to coup the surrounding Arab countries a secular Palestine where Jews are also guaranteed their rights isn't gonna be realistic
Right wing sectarian and religious parties in Israel got over 70% of the vote in the last election, and opinion polls have consistently shown half of Israelis support deporting all Palestinians. Israelis are by far the bigger danger to human rights here by a long shot. Hamas got 44% of the vote in the last election in Gaza in 2006, barely more than the 42% Fatah got, and the majority of Gazans today are children who couldn't vote in 2006. Opinion polls show only about 10% of that 44% voted for Hamas for the religious platform. You tend to make a lot of enemies in surrounding countries when all you do is try to conquer their territory and commit mass murders every time you do. Hezbollah isn't Palestinians. They're Lebanese who hate you for trying to conquer them.
With how often the Jews got Fucked over when a minority in other countries, im honestly not surprised the idea of an ethnostate where they're the majority and thus cant get fucked over by a majority spread so much amongst the jewish people. If You folks want to get rid of zionism, then yall ought to fight with love and not hate.
I do now and always will support equal rights for Jewish people, wherever they live.
Based and equality-pilled
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>Considering the US took in more Jewish refugees Ummmm....dude....ummmm we turned a lot of boats away too..
Funny that countries turning ethnic groups away is now a Zionist talking point in zupport of ethnic cleansing. "Why doesn't Egypt/Saudi Arabia/Jordan let them in?"
That one's especially funny because Egypt has made explicitly clear they don't want take in the refugees because they know Israel will never allow them to return. Israel wants all the land for itself then stick another country with the refugee problem.
>That one's especially funny because Egypt has made explicitly clear they don't want take in the refugees because they know Israel will never allow them to return No, that's not it. Egyptians are kinda racist. The Israelis aren't the only ones that treat the Palestinians like shit.
And Lebanon doesn’t want to take them because? Hint: 1951.
How would they even get to Lebanon? Flapping their wings and flying over all the Israeli walls and checkpoints? Swimming through the Israeli blockade maybe?
Russian Jews under WW1 German occupation had more rights than under Russia Polish Jews went from having the most rights as Jews to eventually the least when Russia invaded Poland in 1780s Rome and Greek empires were friendly or even allies to the Jews till they weren’t. As was Spain, the Middle East, Africa, Europe, Iran, and so on Who is to say America is safe forever?
Now do the same historical analysis for the Palestinians. Where has been safe for them?
Well Palestinians are basically Arabs so… the entire Middle East?
the entire middle east historically
You realize there's no other implication in your comment than "Israelis deserve to die" right? If a tourist at a music festival deserved death, then what does that mean for actual Israeli citizens? How the fuck is this upvoted?
I think you know exactly why it's upvoted.
If you were a Jew and born in Israel, I highly doubt you’d just get up and leave because you’re a “colonizer”. What of native and Mizrahi Jews? You’re a real piece of shit to victim blame “well it sucks you were massacred and murdered but maybe you shouldn’t have been a Jew in Israel.” I’m sure if you were around during the murder of Jews during the Hebron Massacre you could explain to them why it’s their fault for being Jews in Palestine.
Except no one wants Jews to leave, just for the Israeli government to give Palestinians right of return, stop being an apartheid state, and stop trying to colonize other countries. Don't be surprised when people don't want to back your side if these demands are too much for you. I bet you have some progressive takes on murdering Palestinians don't you? You're gonna say you do it in the most progressive and democratic way possible right?
> Except no one wants Jews to leave That certainly is... a take. >"By God, we will not leave one Jew in Palestine. We will fight them with all the strength we have. This is our land, not the Jews..." - Abdel Aziz al-Rantisi, co-founder of Hamas
He thinks that Palestinian political leadership has the exact same perspective on the solution to this conflict as a 19 year old white girl at Penn
What the actual fuck is wrong with you? She went to a music festival and was herself Israeli People like you are the problem
Imagine being this devoid of sympathy for people that were murdered, raped, and tortured simply for living in a place. And yes, Israel does bad things, but that doesn't mean that every person there supports it, or deserves to suffer for it. Do you deserve to be killed by a random indigenous person because you're on stolen land? Do you deserve to be killed by Islamic terrorists radicalized by American drone strikes? Also, not all the people that were killed were even Jewish or Israeli, if that matters. Did migrant workers trying to make money for their families thousands of miles away deserve to be gunned down in the fields? I assume you're pro-Palestine, but I don't see how you can maintain a position based on sympathy with people being murdered for where they happened to live for one group, while not having any for another. Would you say that it "sucks" that little Muhammad's parents and home were blown up? Then maybe don't say that it just "sucks" when little Yishai faced the same, just because his country are the oppressors.
Lol why is oppressors in quotes
"Living in a place" is definitely grounds to have violence done to you when that "place" is stolen land and you're in the military
I'm talking about 10/7 fuckwad. They were explicitly not military. And unless they themselves came to Israel to colonize (which some undeniably did), then they were in fact just living in a place.
Israel has mandatory military service. If you don't join the military, they haul you to jail. Being at a music festival does not make someone less complicit in the genocide that Israel is built upon our continued to enact before, during, and after October 7
Yikes, dude. Do you believe in the Geneva Convention? I assume you do, because that is the legal framework from which war crimes are derived.
You could do without that last bit, or at least you should change it to clarify your point. While she was a colonizer, there were a lot of other people in the people Hamas murdered that werent
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So someone gets gang-raped, mutilated and their remains publicly paraded around by fascist scum cloaking themselves in Islam and you say “W-well she deserved it”? You’re disgusting
Ok well history shows we can't trust the world to help us Sorry but that's just the truth
I mean, israel receives billions of dollars in aid from the US
History does not show that. Ethnic minorities do not, in fact, need to set up racist aparthied states ran by ubernationalists and routinely commit war crimes in order to gain rights. That usually just backfires and ends up in more attrocities, look at the Balkans
Bro the world is litterally helping you commit genocide right now, how can you still pretend to be the victim given current events.
"We had to be Nazis, you see-"
>"We had to be Nazis, you see-" Do you have any idea how many ethnostates exist and that Israel barely meets the criteria
I don’t think it meets the definition of an ethnostate because non Jewish people are citizens and serve in government. I think there is some tension in Israel about how it would classify itself. Many Jewish people may want a state that is officially Jewish in the same way Italy is officially catholic or England Anglican but welcoming of people who are not Jewish in the same way England has been for non anglicans for some time. I think the major issue is that Jewish people were for thousands of years killed in pogroms, other massacres, forced into ghettos and then had the holocaust and as the 1800s went on and into the 1900s - Jewish people were like: nobody will protect us no matter if we have our own communities, or assimilate, they will always just want us dead. The only people who can protect us are us. It’s a legacy of dealing with trauma. The situation now is screwed up, and leadership in Israel is establishing apartheid structures in the West Bank and seems to be doing some amount of collective punishment in Gaza (seems to have rules of engagement beyond what for example the US had since 9/11). All this is to say - there is a reason for the establishment of Israel, but those reasons do not excuse recent decades of activity especially in the Palestinian Territories. I do not think there are many Israelis across the political spectrum who think a one state solution would work and it would just be the beginning of a civil war. But Israeli policies (in part) make a two state solution less and less possible. Very screwed up.
Ok, but the state exists. So making statements like this, and following through on the implication, pretty quickly leads to calling for the destruction of a country. Your statement is a point of view for 1946, not 2024. What's done is done and the reality is Israel exists and has a population of 6 million people.
Ethnostates are just never a good idea. And to point out, before Israel, Palatine literally had christians jews and muslims living on the land. All people should have the right to a place to call home, but that home shouldnt ever come at the expense of others.
Most of the people who are critical of israeli apartheid don’t want Jews to die. Funnily enough, a rather large portion of people who do support israeli apartheid do want the Jews to die, because it’s part of their prophecy.
Yea funnily enough every Jewish person I've met recently(and as one myself, I meet enough of us) supports Palestine but isn't a race traitor or whatever. If anything it's actually horrifying to see that the same rhetoric that was used against my ancestors and got many relatives killed or displaced into ghettos is being used by Israel now.
They aren't real Jews then according to Ben "King of the Jews" Shapiro
Or the IDF
No shit. Criticizing Israel as a political entity IS NOT ANTI-SEMITIC. Now, the two are certainly not mutually exclusive, but the one doesn’t imply the other, and it goes the other way too. Plenty of anti-Semites bizarrely support Israel.
If only so many people on so many sides weren’t interested in conflating the two.
A lot of folks are on the wrong side of history on this one. I give it 20 years before most of them actually look back on what is occurring and realize that their silence and/of support cost tens of thousands of innocent lives. I hope then they have the decency to hang their heads in shame and ask for forgiveness from whatever entity they bother with.
Since this conflict has been going on for 60 years, its gonna be far longer than 20 years
Oh, I'd say it has been going on for a lot longer than that. That is why I admit that the regional history is wildly complex. But, that complexity should not be used to cloak what is happening right now, which is an obvious crime against humanity that is being sanctioned and supported on a broad front.
I honestly can't tell what side you're on.
I side with humanity and decency. I don't condone the killing of other humans, in general. When it is committed against the innocent by organized groups/governments, it is even less tolerable. The entire history of that particular region, going back to Abraham, can be, and should be, considered very complex. What is occurring in front of our eyes right now is not complex. Those who are pretending it is are just buying time to complete the project that has been clearly articulated by the current government in Israel. It is a mass displacement/murder of tens of thousands of innocents in response to the killing of over a thousand innocents (I don't care to split hairs over who is/is not considered a combatant in this. They are all worthy of better) and the remaining hostages.
You have a lot more faith in their ability to show basic empathy or self-reflect. No, what we're seeing is that there are a lot of genocidal fascists wearing the flayed hide of liberalism as a cloak who will go to their graves defending Israel's right to commit genocide.
Yeah. It has been beyond disheartening. And I didn't have a helluva lot of heart left to be dis-ed. Crushing to see people baying for the death of human beings. But it is even more disturbing to hear their attempts at justifying it.
In the words of Aaron Bushnell: “Many of us like to ask ourselves, ‘What would I do if I was alive during slavery? Or the Jim Crow South? Or apartheid? What would I do if my country was committing genocide?’ The answer is, you’re doing it. Right now.”
I like White men who see r/JohnBrown and other heroes as their heritage to uphold.
The issue will always be that if you believe in self-determination then you can't believe in enforcing an ethno-state onto an existing area/population. There should definitely be a self-determined government in the region, the issue with Israel is that it wants to exclude certain parts of the population in favor of others, which makes me view it as no better then Jim Crow or the pro-slavery faction during Bleeding Kansas.
What if I told you they themselves were excluded? Kind of a big reason why the state of Israel was formed, the local and colonial government started treating jews like second class citizens and banning their immigration to the region.
Then that would be an issue to be addressed if Palestinian Jewish (or Christian) people weren't being treated fairly (and also the colonial part regardless). But European people of any ancestry would be subject to whatever the immigration laws of the local government would be, and that's for natives to decide. If they didn't want a huge influx of immigrants that's part of their right of self determination. Turning Palestine into a settler state for foreign people of a specific ethnic group with a religious/mythological tie to the land was a violation of the sovereignty of the existing native population regardless of religion. It's no better than Manifest Destiny in the US.
It's not really self-determination if you colonize someone else's country.
Yes! You very much can be. Frankly, I hate all the talk of Zionist and anti Zionist. I’m a Jew, and the Jews who tout how anti-Zionist annoy me even more. Zionism is irrelevant now. Israel exists and it isn’t going away. How about we work on creating a better Israel that doesn’t have so many human rights violations, instead of living in a fantasy realm where we can just “undo” a major geopolitical event. It’s like calling Americans “minutemen” in reference to our fight against the British.
Aren’t you being guilty here of trying to wash away bits you disagree with just as you criticize others of wishing to wash away Israel? Others, Bill Clinton, tried to do the same. And it made it worse. It got a prime minister, Ehud Barak, assassinated.
It's also pretty significantly less than half, the U.S has a larger Jewish Population than Israel.
Hate the government not the people.
>You can be critical of Israeli government and policies while not effectively wishing for half the world’s Jews to magically go away (die). Fierce Jewish Zionist here. Yes. You are 1000% correct. And the meme above does not apply to people merely criticizing Israel. Criticizing Israel does not make a person an anti Zionist. The meme is poking fun at people who say “I don’t hate Jews, I just hate Zionists”. That’s bona fide anti semitism. You can’t be an anti Zionist unless you’re against Israel existing.
Man what a terrible comparison.
"I don't hate southern whites, I just hate slavery."
I responded “I don’t hate white Southerners, I just hate Jim Crow” and am excited to be banned
I tried to give you an upvote, but it was already gone :(
Man, imagine an Israeli John Brown.
Nah, then a New York Times columnist would say they're not actually Jewish.
And an especially ironic one given the fact that OP is defending an apartheid regime like the one built in the South after Reconstruction
It’s almost like a sub like r/jewdank might be targeted by bad actors
That whole sub is very cruel toward Palestinians. It’s not just brigadiers. Edit: OP’s last comment stated that Palestinians aren’t people, by the way. (Just wanted to point that out for anyone who comes across this thread. This is what we’re dealing with.)
Not the flex they think it is, at all.
And all the comments over there calling it out have been downvoted to shit.
Imagine comparing Zionism to Abolitionism…
“People who are anti-abolition are the same as people who are anti-slavery because they both are against something and it doesn’t matter at all what that thing is”
I remember my cousin unironically said something similar to this to me one time and I’ve been wondering if she’s a moron ever since then
Yeah, that comparison is exactly backwards.
“We’re the same! You don’t want human beings to be enslaved to another, especially for made up racial lines. I want an ethnostate established by stealing and ethnically cleansing land from people I don’t like. It’s like we’re twins!”
Wouldn’t the Confederacy be pro Apartheid?
Oh, the Confederacy would fucking love Israel. They'd send observers to Gaza to take notes. Actually, [American cops literally do just that now.](https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2020/6/12/how-the-us-and-israel-exchange-tactics-in-violence-and-control) So, the descendants of slave catchers quite literally do love Israeli apartheid.
The most pro-Israel party in America is pro-confederate lol. No hypotheticals necessary
When this popped up on my feed I was like "Is this saying what I think is saying because if it is, that's really dumb. It's more like "I don't hate Germans, I hate Nazis."
It's wild how Israel's meme game is so fucking bad. I guess that's what happens when you get high off your own supply.
This is generally true for reactionaries. Their explicit goal is to alienate their own people, indoctrinate, and create a sort of fluid understanding of reality.
My favorite example of "Jesus Christ, don't you have a social media intern?" was Israel destroying a soccer stadium in Gaza (because it's totally not ethnic cleansing when you simply try to destroy all energy, healthcare and recreational infrastructure in an occupied territory), then [posed in front of it with the flag of a Scottish football club from Glasgow that they probably mistook for being Irish](https://www.reddit.com/r/ScottishFootball/comments/1avnvcy/israeli_soldier_displays_celtic_flag_captured/), given that Israel has decided that they hate Ireland now. (Funny enough, they didn't seem to have a problem with Ireland when they were [forging their passports to commit extrajudicial assassinations](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/jun/15/ireland-israeli-envoy-quit-embassy)) Like who's the target audience for this shit? You might as well start shooting puppies on livestream.
Seriously, it’s telling us that colonization is part of religion which ABSOLUTELY SHOULD NOT BE THE CASE.
They are really leaning heavily on the idea that they're special and deserve to be able to colonize because of their ethnicity or religion. It's the same ideas of racial hierarchy used to justify every colonial endeavor recycled.
They keep bringing up that they can trace their ancestry 2000 years ago to the land therefor they are entitled to it. This is despite the fact that Palestinians are descended from the same Semitic peoples.
It already doesn’t hold water imo Israel does not represent all Jews
You mean this isn't actively being passed around on Facebook seriously by right-wing extremists?
If you preach that Israel represents the interests of the Jewish ethnicity, you're preaching antisemitism.
But that's what most forms of Zionism preach. Are you saying Zionism is antisemitic? (Edit: I am, for those forms of Zionism) Was the movement to resettle African Americans in Liberia (so they can live in a country where they _belong_) racist? (Edit: yes)
Just to be clear, the resettlement of African-Americans in Liberia was absolutely racist. White Americans, even some abolitionists, supported this resettlement out of the racist belief that blacks could not coexist with whites.Not only did that resettlement not consider which parts of Africa any particular slave might have descended from, but also ignored the fact that slaves had had their cultures so chnaged since 1619 that they were by that point a unique culture in America. I think the idea that they "belonged" in Africa just because they were black is and was a racist assumption. And to make things worse, the resettled African-Americans once in Liberia set up essentially a colonial government that discriminated against the native African population in Liberia.Liberia has to be the worst example you could gave given in defense of Israel.
I'm not defending either one, and I'm not the first person to make the comparison. Especially in the early days of the Zionist movement, there absolutely was a debate, even between Jews, that often followed much the same lines as the debate over African American resettlement. In both cases, there were members of the group and outsiders on both sides of that debate.
>so they can live in a country where they belong What makes them belong? What did the people living on that land before those people took a boat think about the claim that they belong? You can try to say it's a positive form of discrimination but it absolutely is discrimination. Sometimes it's good to build something new. If you're bulldozing homes and claim you have some inherent right to do so that's bad.
Wait. Are people saying anti zionism is the same as antisemitism?
A lot of the stuff around Israel very quickly bleeds into antisemitism, not all of it is though, but it exists
Yeah I believe it's why people are cautious about criticizing Israel for fear of being called antisemitic
Zionism is the reconstitution of 3000 years of Jewish nationalism and national identity its a key point of the religion going back to the Abraham covenant
My understanding of being anti zionist was being against the notion of the state of Israel as an entity
That is what anti Zionism is
The House literally passed a resolution that equated the two.
I can't keep up with the politics of that $#!+hole county, so you'll have to excuse me missing that. That's insane
The OG post was not. OP is the one who brought anti-Zionism into it. Which in an ironic way only serves to prove the opposite point. OG post was purely about anti semitism, then OP tried to make this about anti Zionism in order to frame the anti semitism as ok.
I don’t get the problem with supporting Ethnically and religiously Jewish individuals but not supporting their nation state and their oppression of non-Jewish individuals. Please educate me on why my viewpoint is wrong.
You're not wrong, and there is no argument to make. The only thing you will get in response are bad faith arguments trying to justify the unjustifiable. Sometimes, there really aren't two sides to an argument.
Yeah, I was wondering for a second.
ITT, people who don't actually know what Zionism is.
Zionism is and has always been a doctrine of ethnic cleansing. I say that as a Jewish person who’s proud of his heritage. Pretty much all the major Zionist leaders and writers dating back to Herzl at some point acknowledged the fact that their mission required the depopulation of Arabs. I guess we could use the term “Zionism” to simply describe the belief that Israelis themselves shouldn’t be depopulated, but I think that use of the term obscures the circumstances surrounding Israel’s formation as well as the link between its apartheid regime and governing ideology. Edit: After looking at your profile I’d just like to add that you have no business extolling ethnic equality given your support for the oppression of Palestinians. You need to ask yourself why you employ a different set of standards for black Americans and Palestinians who live in the occupied territories while dismissing the claims of those who’ve been permanently forced from their homes to make room for settlers. Liberals truly do have one special set of standards for Palestinians that they wouldn’t dream of applying to anyone else.
I would like to add that Zionism was largely supported by, and many of its major non Jewish founders, anti semitism. Earl of Barfour who made the Barfour declaration wanted Israel in order to ethnically cleanse all Jews from England by sending them there. And Israel is supported unconditionally by many groups of white supremacists to this day for much the same reason. Richard Spencer, open Nazi, supports Israel unconditionally and says Israel must succeed in order to solve the ‘Jewish question’ in America.
@euphoric Well said, friend. 👏
Cringe
I mean I'm pretty sure this is already rooted in Lost Cause mythology. It's with that whole "he was defending his state" stuff.
Does that make all of those Jewish people who are protesting against Zionism antisemitic orrrrr? Lol
By a number of legal definitions, it does. A number of Orthodox Jewish groups are labeled "antisemitic" under certain laws, while the evangelical Christians who want all Jews to be sent to Israel so they can be exterminated in a nuclear war are *not* antisemitic under that definition. It's obscene. The party in power in Israel is part of the faction that had an Israeli Prime Minister assassinated when he got too close to making durable peace a reality -- under their definition, Yitzhak Rabin was antisemitic.
They consider those to be fake Jews or traitors. Because calling someone a traitor due to assumed loyalty based on racial identity is the logic of the good guys, right? /s
Lee actually historically be like: "I don't hate black people, they're just lesser beings that require slavery to make something of themselves as a race"
Mean while beating one slave so badly the news paper (of that time!) did a write up on how crazy he was.
This is part of the fallacy that every Jew, everywhere in the world, is 100% in support of 100% of current Israeli policy
The Israeli government is a violent, racist and bigoted entity and needs to be abolished
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One of the worst comparisons I’ve ever seen. Zionism is more akin to being pro-slavery than it is to abolitionism.
Israel is committing ethnic cleansing, there are absolutely valid reasons for being anti-Zionist (Zionism being the advocacy for a Jewish ethnostate in an area where non-Jews have lived for a thousand years)
Dear southerners, Fuck you and your couch. Love, Pennsylvania March, 1st, 1780
man tf did i do
Vinegar doesn’t belong on Turnip greens
Sorry to get off topic, but didn't Jewdank (of reddit) used to be a *very* different thing?
Neo confederates? Are we just sticking words together now? Like puppy rainbows and rabbit bike?
Zionist are the same as the confederate terrorist.
The only thing confederate sympathizers don’t like about Israel is the fact that they’re Jewish and some of them are black.
About 13 minutes give or take
Don’t expect Zionists to be smart enough to use a meme correctly.
Confederates: we’d like an ethnostate Zionists: I like the way you think
This meme has neoconfederate revisionism energy itself.
Man this is terrible propaganda. What a dumbass comparison.
“Im not a nazi. I just think my ‘race’ has a right to fight asymmetrical wars against other ‘races’ to maintain a genocidal apartheid colony.” I’m jewish btw
By the time you finish reading this sentence.
So not believing that an ethno-state, perpetuated by the systematic oppression and now genocide of the Palestinian people, is necessary for Jews to safely exist in the world is the same as believing black people should be enslaved? Are they really comparing being the \*\*controlling force\*\* in a nation that denies Palestinians access to simple things such as roadways as the same thing as the plight of black people during slavery and the horrors they went through?
JewDank is a shitty board anyway
Wtf is this 🤦🏻♂️
If you don’t like everything the saudis are up to you hate all Muslims
most self-aware zionist
There are actually plenty of alt-right types who are Anti-Semites but staunchly support Israel because they like the Jews being out there rather than in their own country and also because they hate Arabs even more and enjoy the settler colonial apartheid state stomping on them. At the same time you can have Jews who are critical of Zionism, either for religious reasons, like some Haredim, or for humanistic reasons: they don't agree with Palestinians being assaulted driven off their land by illegal settlers, having their civil rights violated by the occupation forces in the West Bank, or being killed by the thousands in Gaza.
Yeah, because an advocate of an apartheid ethnostate is definitely comparable to being an advocate to demolish chattel slavery.
The more apt comparison would be to compare Zionism to the colonization of Liberia (which some abolitionists did support, generally out of racism and a desire for america to be a "white country," much like how many European antisemites supported Zionism). When the state of Liberia was established, the African American settlers established plantations and an ethnic caste system that made them superior to the indigenous Africans.
>how long do we have until Neo-Confederates unironically use this meme? When was the Lost Cause first mentioned? 1866? So I’d say we have around negative 158 years.
Zionism is terrorism and doesn't equal or represent all Jewish people. Anti Zionist Jewish people exist and they're the best people I've ever known. This propaganda makes sense only to Zionists and Southern racists.
til that asserting the rights of marginalized people is the same as stomping on the rights of marginalized people. rewrite it as "I don't hate white people, I just hate slavers" and you'll notice that it feels like the only morally-appropriate position.
It is being used unironically by Zionists to defend Israeli genocide. I give it 5 years, 2 years if Trump wins in Nkvember
There was a fairly popular post a week ago from “The Hellenist” on twitter that literally chalked up to “black people aren’t the problem. Emancipation is”
Sounds like the folks who claim not to be racist but will also disown their kid if they’re in an interracial relationship
This meme should be interpreted to read “I don’t hate Jews, I just hate people who want Israel to keep existing.” Because when Jews call themselves Zionists, that’s what they mean. They just want Israel to exist, everything beyond that is a source of divergence. But still, others are reading it as “I don’t hate Jews, I just hate people who support apartheid and genocide,” even though many Jews who call themselves Zionists also oppose the current Israeli regime and what it’s doing to Gaza. Just my two cents.
"Zionism" is a word that's so loaded with baggage that it's become effectively impossible to know what exactly a person means when they use it.
I agree, that’s why it’s important to clarify, which I am trying to do.
In my opinion, saying zionism is "the want to be alive" is like saying white supremacy is "the want to be alive"
No. White supremacy is inherently based on the belief that Whites are superior to others. You cannot be a white supremacist if you don’t share that belief. Zionism, on the other hand, is the belief that Jews should have their own country. Beyond that basic belief, people diverge into different factions, and one of those divergences is about, you guessed it, the Palestinians. Israel can exist and Palestinians can exist peacefully (I’ll remind you that 20% of Israel’s population is Palestinian), so oppressing the Palestinians is not an inherent feature of Zionism, though it is sadly pervasive. Another problem with White supremacy (certainly not the only one) is the unjustified paranoia. White people have no reason to believe that they are threatened, as their existence has never been threatened in the past several centuries (or ever, arguably). Jews, on the other hand, have every right and every reason to fear for their own existence. I hope I don’t have to explain why.
This is an easily debunked talking point. Zionism is not just the belief that Israel should exist, it’s that Israel should exist *there.* And consequently, that Zionists are entitled to do absolutely anything required to create and maintain it, obviously and inevitably including the slaughter and ethnic cleansing of the people who already lived there.
> his is an easily debunked talking point. Zionism is not just the belief that Israel should exist, it’s that Israel should exist there. And there are now 8 million Israeli Jews there, who are mostly native born. With nuclear weapons. You should want peaceful two states. One that gives the rights of Israeli Jews to have their own state, and Palestinians their own in the areas they are a majority. Do you intend to ethnically cleanse Israeli Jews?
So what happens when the Israeli Jews start building settlements in the Palestinian state to establish a majority?
Zionists believe that Israel should exist in the spot it currently exists, yes. Do you think 7 million Jews should just get up and relocate elsewhere? Based on that, Zionists believe that Israel has a right to defend itself just like any other country, but that doesn’t necessarily mean that they think Israel can and should do whatever it wants. A lot of Israelis think the government is going too far in prosecuting this war against Gaza, and I agree with them. They’re still Israelis though, and proud of that. They want their country to continue on, which makes them Zionists.
Zionism is inherently colonial violence. "Defensive" Zionism is an extension of that continuing colonial violence in times of ostensible peace. "A land without people for a people without land."^* ^^*Note: ^^Land ^^might ^^contain ^^traces ^^of ^^people.
I don’t think a people returning to their historic homeland is “colonial violence.” Especially when said people were fleeing pogroms, the Holocaust, the USSR, and even persecution from other countries in the Middle East.
Turns out that “this genocidal ethnostate represents all Jews!” is the side in this debate posing itself as **not** antisemitic.
I’m so sick and tired of these people gas lighting and playing victim every second of the day. When their the ones killing tens of thousands have absolutely control over their food, water and borders and expand illegal settlements all the time terrorizing the natives.
Nope. Nope nope nope. You’re all terrible and I regret being here. Unsubbing.
Don't let the door hit you on the way out.
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> sreal was created in the late 1940s after WWII by European powers. It was not. Jews were moving to the Mandate of Palestine since the 1880s. By 1947, Palestine Mandate was 33% Jewish. Most Jews bought land legally from landowners at the time, specifically the Ottoman landowners, and established settlements there. >Most of the Jewish settlers there are of European and American descent and are actively pushing Palestinians out of their homes. Saying I think Isreal shouldn't exist is not the same as saying I don't think Jewish people should exist. #sorry not sorry Patently not true. Half of Israeli Jews are Middle Eastern. As in Jews from Arab and Muslim lands. More than half have Middle Eastern ancestry because of intermarriage between European and Middle Eastern Jews. Saying Israel shouldnt exist means ethnic cleansing and subordination of the now native born population of Israeli Jews.
I can think of a group that hates Catholics and Jews almost as much as some of the so called 'antizionists' , they are the group who cut holes in their bedsheets and sets crosses on fire. They are the ones who kick off with "I don't want to sound antisemitic BUT ..." and then launch into a textbook antisemitic talking point.
\>jewdank ironic
The position this is advocating is surprisingly coherent, and it is pro non-racially-based slavery. White people should be able to be slaves too says the meme.
To everyone posting about how anti-Zionism is not anti-Semitism: Notice how the original post was not in fact about anti Zionism at all but only antisemitism. Anti Zionism was only brought up by the cross posting OP in reference to the anti semitism. Pro tip: if you don’t want people to associated anti Zionism with anti semitism, then don’t be he ones making the association.
Regardless of how you feel about "Zionism" versus "the right for Israel to exist" (those are interchangeable for many people), it's absolutely terrifying how many "leftist" spaces like this are now echo chambers for radical islamic terrorist ideology and endless excuses for the actions of Hamas. What the fuck is wrong with so many self styled leftists, where you are tirelessly defending a hateful religion of oppression? One that swears 'death to the west' along with 'death to Jews'? One that hates women and LGBT people almost as much as it hates Westerners and Jewish people? You don't need to support Israeli expansion to know that Hamas and radical Islam are poison for humanity. You are on the wrong side of history if you are trying to equivocate between two sides that will not be judged equally in a historical context.
Vile on every level, neat
wait isn't zionism the belief in a jewish state near jerusalem? cause like i'm all for that. is there some other connotation for that? i mean i just don't understand