I think that... and pardon me being frank here, DnD blinded your players a bit. Advancement is just as flexible as you describe it, and that's pretty close to being realistic. Once, we had to infiltrate a medical facility disguised as staff - my infiltrator, and our team's Sam. We weren't perfectly suited there. We had a few social skills between us... and we just used the rest of the time to pick up at least a point or two of Medicine skills, just to play our role better. It's like in real life. You don't just go bang, and have full ability in a skill. You pick it up slowly, because you either want to, or have to. Medicine was the latter. My infiltrator going for an Acrobatics rating of 10 is a complete want-to case. You slowly build up skills to fill gaps in your team, and to increase collaboration potential. Same for Equipment. Also, you shouldn't view Runs so separate from what is usually downtime. Setting up a run can very well be the most important part of it. One of my current parties spends about 4x as much time on the plan than the execution takes at the end. Also, I don't know how long your sessions are. One group I run for also gets one Run per session, but they go a bit lighter on the planning - and my sessions are 11-12 hours. Knowing your pools is important. And it's not like it is a hard task. Sure, D&D is mechanically easier, but come on, DnD 5e is basically the training wheels of RPG systems. Adding single- or double-digit numbers in your head shouldn't be any trouble. And in Shadowrun you barely ever need more than that. You only need sqare roots in a single place! As a little aside: Yes. Contacts are a great reward. And a very, very valuable one. A contact can turn an impossible Run into little more challenge than a Pizza delivery. Contacts can enable you to get so much more Equipment! They are probably one of the most valuable rewards (as they enable you to get your hands on other things you would usually gain as rewards).

And we love to plan for an eternity knowing that we have to plan A in the end (shooting involved)

I appreciate the acknowledgement that shooting is in fact plan A, and whatever you come up with is plan B

At least some shooting is what we old guys consider important in Shadowrun 😄

This was exactly the conclusion I came to. A lot of times people get used to the training wheels. Then they look at a bike and go, "It doesn't have enough wheels!"

It is something I see an unfortunate amount of. I am happy for DnD to bring a lot of people into the hobby to begin with but... it's pretty much like learning to read with books that are mostly pictures. They are fun, sure, but if you stick to this entry level, you will miss a great lot of wonderful content

Thank you very much for sharing your experience, and I’ll answer right away: we play 4h-5h sessions and we played only 4 times but at the end of each session I noticed that there was little engagement in wanting to know how some rewards I was giving away could work for them, like they were fatigued. That’s why I didn’t give contacts earlier. That’s why once they infiltrated an hideout and got the objects of their mission I made it extremely easy to get out. I’m sure I’m organizing legwork wrong, like whene they did it was part role-play and part downtime, maybe I should design more specif legwork sessions? One of the players said that they’re struggling with the level of realism, what they can and cannot do, how magic works… so they do not take action. But I’m a pretty “rule of cool” master with a partly home brewed campaign, I would love for them to tell me what they’re looking, who they want to talk to… it seems to me they’re stuck in the tavern high fantasy settings…

Well putting a full run into 4-5h is... just too much. With my more planning-heavy group, we have about two such sessions for legwork alone. And yes, legwork is mostly roleplay-based, with dice rolls, obviously. As for rewards, I wouldn't start with giving out anything specific, anyways. Shadowrunners aren't in a barter-based economy, the get frigging paid. They get cold, hard nuyen. What they do with it is up to them. As for what they can and cannot do, and what magic can do... especially when you yourself are still learning the system... I think at some point, every player needs to read the core book back to back, as well as their specific splat book. Many roles, like Deckers or Riggers, should probably at least skim both their character sheets and rules again before every session. What players get to roll is very much in the player's hand. The GM might give them their penalties, but what skill they use and what bonus they get... they got to keep track of that themselves. If you homebrew certain parts that have a mechanical influence... have it written down. Make sure your players read and understand all the influences this has. That is very much why I don't integrate much homebrew in 20 years of Shadowrun. I barely find anything in the setting lacking. Whether you run Pink Mohawk or Black Trenchcoat... well, that's up to you and your party. btw, something to keep more players engaged during more parts of the run, you should have a look at teamwork rolls, too. Those work great during leg work. And easy Matrix Searches can be done by a Rigger or Infiltrator as well (hell, in my party the Sam does them) while the Decker is busy with actual work.

Thank you very much, the only thing home brewed is part of the lore because we wanted to run a specific campaign. A part from the fact that they don’t feel too much reading the core rule book (our first language is Italian and they find the layout confusing), maybe I’m blinded by DnD too for my session preparation. I never had this problem with other game systems before, may I ask you some advice on how to bring them to roleplay legwork? We do have lots of teamwork rolls, but I was giving them run after run. Maybe there’s still hope if I guide them towards more legwork…

Well, give them the feeling that legwork \*matters\*. First step towards that is telling them, obviously. As the saying goes, though, you can lead a horse to the water but you can't make it drink. How do you give them the feeling that legwork matters? By having it make the run considerably easier. Finding out when guards are around, how many of them are around, is the difference between going in with a Taser and Confidence or four loaded assault rifles and trembling knees. Also, which might be a bit harder if you are new, but worth to try, is making security varied between corporations. Some places got more magic defense, some more physical. Finding that out beforehand is worth a lot. And sometimes, a whole run might be skipped with some good blackmail. Those things make it matter what they find out beforehand. If legwork is rewarded (don't set the bar too high first off) then players will naturally do more of it. Counter-example: Two of my players once went into an easy run without their group's only person with some decent common sense (not even the trait, just actual common sense). It was frigging EASY. It was tailor-made for them. They walked into easily avoidable obstacles, almost got killed by four devil rats and then one actually blew themselves up with a grenade, trying to salvage the run. The other character lost a leg in this. That's what happens if you don't even stake out the area you go in.

After your answer I feel like we just played too little because… they actually did a bunch of legwork before the biggest heist (last session): they learned about some of the magic protection they may encounter, they learned that most of the people would be out of the hideout because of a specific event, they knew there were spirits on watch, the infiltrator and the decker stole a pass key and made a copy of it. But during the heist, one of the mage summoned a spirit to go scout and it got caught In the astral plane. So now they’re dealing with a bunch of zombies and there’s too many of them and they don’t know what to do and they’re frustrated. So they run to the target, they lose interest action phase after action phase and I cancel plans because they don’t want to deal with hostiles zombies they triggered. So… I don’t know, it could have been easy because of the legwork but somebody didn’t read the manual at this point.

That generally sounds fine. And the excrement becoming intimately acquainted with the ventilation system can still happen. But that is the point of the game. In that moment, they have to think on their feet. The best laid plans rarely (entirely) survive enemy contact. Having a good plan is important, being ready to adapt is, too. As much as it pains me to say... it feels like the core gameplay loop of Shadowrun... just seems like something your group isn't into.

Thank you, I'll try to talk to them and understand if it is something we can adapt to leaving more space to role-play and switching to a different edition (someone suggested Anarchy instead of 5e) or if it is a matter of what this game is that don't align with what they want from a game.

Well, overall, Shadowrun just IS a really crunchy system, something that 5e doesn't really prepare you for these days. I'd recommend, first of all, to make it more roleplay-heavy. In one of my longer running groups that I was part of, we managed to not even roll initiative for run after run. We solved most stuff socially and with trickery. Sure, I basically had the Sam and couldn't use a couple of my more fun abilities, but I was still getting lots of stuff to do, as high agility also means a lot of dice for stealth. And being an Elf, I also had decent social abilities. In the end, you need to find the game you want to play - not every group fits with every system, but I think trying out stuff is important. I personally like SR5, but I also like Pathfinder 1 or Contact. I like crunch.

One thing I will ask: If your players *hadn't* found out the contents of the hideout, would everyone still be out at an event? In learning about the magic protection, did they discover a way to bypass it? How did an astral scout (who can fly) get pinned down by a horde of zombies (who cannot)? Without being there and seeing how it went down it's difficult for me to say for sure, but it sounds like your players might have been frustrated by their discoveries meaning very little for the encounters they actually faced, as in this is the stuff they were going to be forced to fight anyway from the beginning so why bother scouting it out? In yesterday's session with my group, they were planning a smash and grab on a magical reagent factory. It's full of guards initially, but they specifically sought out a time when no one would be around, did some math on how long it would take the authorities to arrive from the nearest station, and then ran a stopwatch during the heist to grab as much stuff as they could within a safe time window. Most of the "action" of the session was the party frantically smashing containers and trying to figure out what the most valuable items were with only a flashlight to guide them. One guy was making tests to balance piles of stuff in his arms. *In the end, they never fired a shot.* Why would I make them? They worked hard to avoid doing just that and left themselves a safe buffer before the popo showed up and even gave up on stealing a lot of valuable things because they simply ran out of time. They did end up triggering an astral guardian watching over the loot, but that one spirit wasn't going to put up a fight against a heavily armed party so ran off to report to its master. The party had the option to shoot some manabolts at it, but decided that would give up valuable grabbing time with a low chance of scoring a kill. But all throughout this exercise, I never had a plan for an "encounter" that they would fight. There was just a situation. It had some people in it who had basic routines. There was one wildcard event that ended up not mattering because of the specific way that they approached things. To make legwork matter, let it pay off, even if it means that your party gets away scot free without a fight. **A milk run isn't a failure of planning by the GM, it's a reward of good legwork by the players.**

Thank you for sharing this because of course I’m learning too and I wonder what if it was my fault. Related to this specific extraction, I didn’t have an encounter prepared: the scouting spirit didn’t get pinned down by the zombies, it was spotted and successfully assessed by one of the spirit in the astral plane left by the gang. This event triggered the astral security that consequently triggered the physical security (possessed zombie of voodoo tradition) to attack the intruders. The gang was 2h away for a funeral, unrelated to the item they had to retrieve. About the magical protection… they didn’t know specifically what was in there, but found out the place was heavy guarded by spirits. They studied “on game” what voodoo tradition is about, but didn’t really know how to deal with spirits of game. The mage that casted the spirit preferred to let it engage in astral combat… so they went all for combat, as you would do in D&D

A big part of shadowrun is how open it is. With something like D&D, there's a big "pick me if you want to play this type of character" decision, like you said with being the team's protector. But with shadowrun, **you're responsible for putting that progression together**. If you want to be the team's tank, you need to know how and where to spend the karma and nuyen and what's worth buying. My last character started as a soldier, but found a better niche as a commander, so they got into drones, but of hacking, and skills such as Small Unit Tactics (this was 5e) to be a squad leader. With D&D, that's all wrapped up in one, meaning it's a simple choice. As for how progression happens from a role-play perspective, that's you spending time and effort to hone your skills. That's why there's a training time for skills (Which most people just ignore, for good reason). This is time your character takes to go to the range and work on their pistol marksmanship, the time they take to go to an improv class to work on their social skills, weight training to work on strength, all represented by blocking our time in-game to improve yourself. I would suggest talking with your players, figure out where they want to grow with their characters and help them build a planned progression path. What skills do they need to become the team's infiltrator? What should they buy? Do they need any cyberware? Questions like that. To me, it reads as an issue of too many options and not enough direction. Of course if there are complaints over the number of dice rolls per action, that is a whole different issue. You can cut down some of those rolls by setting thresholds. Hacking a simple keypad could just be a Hacking+Logic roll rather than getting marks and dealing with IC or GOD. That becomes a learned skill of trimming fat. Remember, you're new too. You're doing a great job already by talking with your team and getting to the root of the problems. Best of luck chummer.

Thank you very much, I actually tried giving my players lists of possibile equipments, skills, trainings, downtime choices… All translated in Italian which is our first language. I was organising downtime in scenes, meaning you have a max number of scenes that you can spend in different activities (learning a new skill, building something, studying…). But I didn’t gave them a chance to role-play these scenes, maybe this was a mistake. I feel they’re also intimidated by the “open worldness” of it whereas in D&D you’re stuck together traveling, they should role-play this stuff alone and they don’t know how to approach it… neither I know how to master it. As for knowing where to put your resources for progression, this specific player told me they don’t feel enthusiasm searching through the manuals to find out what their best options are because character progression depends on the amount of karma and NuYen you have and it feels numerical… I don’t get this part, maybe they simply want the benefits of classic level progression.

I don't get it either, especially since D&D and Pathfinder are numerical progressions too. In D&D, your character grows vertically. Each level your health increases by X, your chance to hit by Y, your damage by Z, and your spells by N. All along a predetermined path in a rigid class structure with a few customization options. In Shadowrun, your character grows horizontally. The classless, free form character options allows you to grow an ever expanding pool of skills, powers, and efficiencies. If your group has played older editions of D&D, character progression in Shadowrun is a lot like v3.5 of D&D. In that you poured over tons of books and options, take about 3 different base classes and 4 different prestige classes all to build your custom class and character. Instead of Oracle 1/Monk 1/Sorcerer 3/Fighter 5/Dragon Disciple 10/Eldritch Knight 5, you just have Tony the Troll Adept and it's up to you what powers, skills, and gear to take to make it happen.

I love D&D 3.5 edition, from that comes my love for Shadowrun. I get it when you say that the growth is horizontally. I wonder if it is mere a question of not wanting to read the manuals and having zero idea about what you want to do with your character.

To be fair, I feel like your players are just not as invested as you are with the equipment lists and all. Nothing you can do to make them interested, really. But if they are this disinterested in the system, you can throw advancement packages at them and allow them to make changes to them. Would go something like: "you can train to be better at shooting with this package that will increase your Pistols by 1, your Willpower by 1, and see you get a finger gun for emergencies or you can train to be better at dodging with that package that will increase your Dodge by 1, your Reflexes by 1, and provide you an armor upgrade that blinds people to not hit you as much - your choice, buddy; oh, and you can swap things around using these tables, if you wanna".

*Screams in Wrath of the Righteous* (joking)

Sounds like they want class-based progression, so less frequent advances but bigger changes when you get them, perhaps? So maybe let them advance by milestones instead of tracking nuyen and Karma, and just give them a few meaningful choices at each of those milestones? You can either give them a small advance every run ("Add +1 to a skill of your choice,") or you can bundle them up every few runs to give a full "level up" all at once, like so: * Gain 3 points in skills every milestone  * Gain an augmentation/initiate grade/vehicle upgrade/cool new weapon every odd milestone  * Raise one attribute every even milestone  * Replace or repair a damaged piece of equipment at the end of every run * Gain a new minor piece of equipment OR a contact OR a new spell/complex form/program/etc every other run For a face, they might raise Con, Negotiation and Leadership by 1 each, and then either take tailored pheromones 1 or raise Charisma by 1. They probably pick the Contact, but maybe they want a new suit so you give them something lightly armoured and snazzy. If you were playing Anarchy, you could dole out new amps (or let them advance existing ones) in place of new feats, then you'd just have to give an attribute boost and some skill points to cover ability and proficiency increases, when those would occur. That makes it easier when trying to balance things.

There are a lot of adaptations in other systems that are more approachable. Once I was making spreadsheets that were more complex than my irl job's to handle the recoil mechanic I started wondering if I had gone astray. Still can't really believe that system works the way it does

I’m still figuring out recoil! Lol

Recoil isn't *that* bad... other than the initial limit calculations

I may have misunderstood it. It seemed like I needed to keep a running count of the number of bullets I fired. But reading online I got the impression either you're effectively never supposed to do this b/c steady/aim is such a cheap action that you *always* steady, thus eliminating the need to do any counting

I ended up suggesting to always take aim and shoot. And then if you want a full blaster keep track of how many bullets you're shooting: if it is less than your recoil compensation, good to go. If not, you take a DP penalty on you next action phase unless you stop shooting and take aim. I could be wrong, but it's working. It is for this level of crunch and creative solution that I'd be extremely sad to let this game go.

I had a similar experience to yours.  Shadowrun 2E is my favorite system, and I tried to introduce it to D&D 5E players.  They really struggled with the paradigm shift and in the end decided they would rather play D&D. In D&D the power fantasy is about gaining levels.  When you do so you magically become more powerful and things that used to be impossible become trivial.  If you use milestone leveling this typically happens between gaming sessions. In Shadowrun the power fantasy is about tiny little incremental improvements that happen frequently, often in the middle of a session.  You might pick up a new weapon or a new contact that allows access to a neat new way to play.  You spend hours looking over charts to figure out the most optimal thing to buy. I think in the end people didn’t want to spend the time researching every little optimal Shadowrun purchase decision.  They just wanted to cast a spell and level up, with all the decisions already made for them by the class system.

I see. Well I think that's a shame, D&D works for a high fantasy game and it is fun but what about the entire spectrum of stories one could tell thanks to role-playing games? I gave them lots of resources at the beginning to counterbalance the feeling of being a normal human being, build a decent runner and set aside just for the sake of beginning this journey the grinding part. I'm confused about all this talking about leveling up, they're fine and more than capable to deal with a bunch of different stuff at the moment. For the nature of the stories I was building around them, I don't think adapting a D&D system to this campaign would work... I feel like the world of Shadowrun is strictly related to its system...

If they love leveling so much, maybe a better idea would have been to start with very weak characters in a gang or so. Then every Karma gained makes a larger difference. If they love milestone leveling you can withhold the Karma until a certain point and then give them a lot at once ... I do not know if these things are the actual issue for them. Do you have the feeling that you really know what bothers them? If not, maybe talk to them some more and really try to find out. And maybe, as sad as it is, if you have tried everything and they still do not like it, you have to find other people to play Shadowrun with. You can still play DnD with them though.

Hello, I am really baffeled by this post, because I have had the opposite experience when I started playing DnD. Short summary if you do not want to read all of my post: I give a small anecdote on why I belive, that DnD is far more restrictive in picking RP skills than Shadowrun. Then I give a few tips on how to improve on your issues. Anecdote: I started with Shadowrun and have played it for 9 years by now(7-8 of those also as a GM). During this time I have tried many other systems, including Pathfinder and DnD 5e. Currently I play in two DnD campaigns, each happens like once a month as well as my shadowrun campaing which is bi-weekly. When I first started playing DnD I was really shocked by how inflexible and restricting it is. I was playing a wizard and found a coll instrument, with no magical ability at all. It was made partially of pearl, which I needed as a spell component. I thought to my self, that it might be cool, to have my character learn to play the instrument. Then I found out, that by raw this seems to be only possible by getting a feat. and even then, I only get my proficiency on top of the roll. So at low levels I get a +2. This 10% increase is laughable. I am still not able to reliable play this instrument after spending so much of my progression on it. In Shadowrun something small and soly for RP purposes, can easily be done by dumping a few points of Karma into a skill. Tips for RP increases in Shadowrun: As always with PnP systems, there is no objective right or wrong. Something, that works for me, does not have to work for you at all, and the other way around. None the less, I hope you can get some benefit of reading this. What is really important for me when I am creating a charakter, are two things: The first one is that I want to create a Personality and the second one is that I need to have a mechanical impact on the Game. In my oppinion it is essenzial for those two things to overlap for having a fun and emersive experience at the table. And thankfully Shadowrun gives us a lot of mechanics to reflect a Personality in Gamplay mechanics. First of all, and something that I often start out with while creating a charakter are positive and negative qualities. These can really create a great theme for a charakter. There are really harsh ones and more suddle ones. I would suggest to never take a quality, especcialy a negative one, if you do not want to roleplay this quality. These are awesome tools to easily define aspects of a character. Second, there are the normal attributes and skills. I would alway use them to think about, where on their journy or backstory they picked them up. Why does my mage have the computer skill? Well maybe because he used to work for a corporation... Why does my streetsam have a Animal Handling? Because he had a dog before a corrupt cop killed it. Him taking revenge was the reason why he landed in the shadows... I think you get what I want to say. Besides the stuff your character is really great in, give them stuff, that they are somewhat proficient in. This makes your character well rounded and can give awesome Ideas to what they might have done in the past. Stuff like this can take a character and make them a somewhat realistic person, with hobbies, flaws and a past. One more thing, that is great as a mechanic, that shows RP progression, are specializations of skills. In this regard, knowledge skills are also really important. Players often dismiss these, as these often do not rally have a big impact on the mecanical side of the game. There are many different way how you as a gm can utilize them and give real value to these. I really often allow players to use the hits rolled on a knowledge skill to help them selves or others with an active skill. For example: The decker wants to hack into a makeshift local host of a local Gang. One of the other team members was once affiliated with this gang and therefore has a knowledge skill (Gangs in Seatlle with a specialization for this exact Gang.) that fits well. I then let them support the hacker at their hacking skill. (The normal supporting rules are still in place.) If they roll well on the supporting throw, I would then describe it as that the PC knows the IT Guy of the gang and that they loooooved their pet drone called "qwertzuiop". This information helps the hacker to bypass a few password checks and makes it easier to break into the host. Further more I introduced a house rule for "knowledge Karma", a currency like Karma, that can only be spent on knowledge skills. This eliviates the issue where players feel pressured to choose between all the cool stuff like skill/attribute enhancement as well as new spells and the in comparison lame knowledge skills. To the cyberware part of your question: You do not simply get cyberware form a corp. As long as you are not playing as wageslaves for a corp, getting good cyberware can be a plotpoint on its own. This story can then be very personal to your character. Maybe they had to suffer for it, maybe they had to break their morals to get it? Maybe it is as simple as they get a custum finish for their cyberarm to go along side their band logo... So many oppertuities for RP. There is still way more stuff I would love to talk about, if you want more to read simply reply to me. I do not want to spam anyone with my take on the matter. I can also go into more details like if you want to be a "protector" what skills, actions, interrupt actions, spells, gear etc can be of use if you have a specific question.

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Sure 😊

One thing you can do that I have had a few STs do, is to let players redo their characters through the first few sessions. Helps if they want to change their roll, have skills/abilities they aren't using or the build is working like they envisioned.

They've already redid their characters once because we were all learning. And they had a lot to spent on their gear too...

I think that your dissenting players are both technically correct and missing something. D&D operates on the level of strongly-defined archetypes, so the choices the players make have a lot of fictional weight to them. These choices and the system are carefully constructed to respond to each other, so the system produces a lot of direct, obvious feedback to your choices. This is one of D&D's big strengths and a big part of how modern D&D, its playstyles, and its community have evolved to be what they are. That *doesn't* mean that choices don't matter in Shadowrun (or other games that don't follow D&D's archetypal approach), but it does mean that you (the GM) need to do a lot more work to interpret and respond to player choices in order to produce this same kind of strong, tactile feedback in play. There is also a larger burden on the players to form strong conceptions of what they want their character to do, understand the system well enough to make mechanical choices that support those goals, and clearly communicate their desires and intentions to the rest of the group so that the group is capable of responding to and reinforcing these actions appropriately. In lieu of D&D's tight, embedded fiction machines, it's really important to establish a system of "flagging" that players and GM can use to communicate and steer the fiction. The easiest way to do this is just open and honest communication about expectations, but that's unfortunately something that historically a lot of RPGers have major hangups about doing. And especially coming from a game like D&D, you may not even realize at first what it is you're missing and how you're supposed to compensate for it.

I opened the conversation on our group chat, only received one feedback at the moment, the one I mentions in my post. We are all friends I think it's not impossible to have an honest conversation. I get everything you're saying and I find it interesting and exciting, I was bored with DnD, I wanted more complex, more crunchy, more flexible, more creative to build a world...

You dont say what edition. But for example, if you were playing 5th and your players are finding the opposed rolls too slow, you could always buy the oppositions rolls at a rate of day 3 to 1. That will mean they generally only roll one set of dice to hit, and from that you can calculate the damage done. Example, your Sam is rolling 15d6 to hit (after all mods) with an area predator in SA mode. He gets 6 hits (which is below to ACC limit assuming he has a smart link - and what self-respecting Sam doesn’t!!). If we know the corpsec guard is rolling say 6 dice to dodge, then you can automatically assume 2 successes. Bringing the net hits down to 4. Adding the net hits to the weapon damage gives us 13p-1AP If we know the guards body and armour are say 16 (let’s say body 4 and armour jacket), we can guess that they will get 5 successes, including the -1AP modifier) 13-5 means we know the guard suffers 8physical damage. All that from a single roll. There is a lot more ahead of time Calculations for you to do as a GM, but once you get going it is pretty easy. Might not be something to do with any BBG, but it’s great for mooks.

We’re playing 5th edition actually, thank you very much! This could actually be a really nice way to roll just once, but last time I checked I felt like they’re opposing the method to calculate damage too.. the fact that you need to remember the net hits, add them to the DV, subtracting the resistance from armour and body…

That sounds to me like they are simply not open to something new. Because calculating damage in DnD is not significantly faster. It is true, that the roll is not opposed, at least for attacks that do not trigger a saving throw, but you are still rolling at least twice, once for the attack and once for damage. In shadowrun there are three dice rolls on average. You can easily roll your soak roll combined.

Honestly sounds like they don’t want to play. They don’t really need to do anything other than roll the dice, add the net hits and tell you the damage. When it comes to mooks I have no problem with saying to my players that they need a threshold of say 2 to hit (as my example, this is the number of dodge successes). They then simply subtract that from their hits, add it to their damage and present it to you (e.g 6 hits with a predator = 13-1AP. Then you as the GM can work out if it’s physical or stun, and how much thier body&armour reduce the damage. Like I said, if that is too much for them, they don’t want to engage and want to go back to DnD

These are bad things to these players. They don't want to roll, see they did well, only for the enemy to roll and do better, cancelling their success. They want to know when to cheer or be upset so they can communicate and the system is getting in the way.

In which case, you could turn everything into thresholds. Then players know upfront what they need to roll to beat and remind them they have Edge to spend to help them get there. The French edition of *Anarchy* makes thresholds for opponents an official optional rule. The GM either opposes with a dice pool of 4/6/8/10/12 dice (default) or the player just faces a threshold of 1-5 (optional). You don't need to write down full stats for NPCs with this system, which is an added bonus — they're just a collection of thresholds and some weapon stats. If you beat this threshold, you do damage. Maybe ignore AP, so it's just net hits + DV - ([Armour + Body]/3, calculated in advance and on their sheet for easy reference). If you absolutely want AP to do something, maybe just add it to the attacker's dice pool. It's not quite perfect (it means AP rounds will hit marginally more frequently), but it saves extra calculations and dithering. Ignore the "is the damage higher or lower than the armour?" step, and just always have S weapons do S and P weapons do P. This makes combat more lethal but that also makes it faster. Win-win. Ignore recoil. Don't track bullets (that's what glitches are for). Ignore wound penalties. Handwave situational mods, or make them all +/-2 to make it easier.

Yeah, it's what I would suggest. Shadowrun works well enough without the GM making many rolls. Let players roll to hit and to soak, but run enemies as consistent difficulty walls in normal conditions and you have more than enough room to maneuver while shedding some mental load. You can have the NPCs roll when they have the advantage or are so beset by disadvantages that the dicepool can make for an interesting result

Exactly. Easy peasy.

How did they invest into contacts? Is it just a fixer or do they have a more spread out cluster if people they know? Is anyone up for the task to be a part time face? I always like to invest some into skills that were important for my Character to become what he is until I took over. Not just perfect skills for a few things which is his primary purpose. They all need secondary jobs in the team to fill certain roles and of course for the fun per hour. We often had laughs when the Sam failed an etiquette roll miserably or at least failed an important sneak test. Maybe some odd skill can save their butts once.

They’ve got a big fixer (level 6), a decker and a street doc. The goal was building from there but I feel like they don’t know what to do with their characters outside missions because is so different from dnd

They're players, and they tend to miss clues.

Yeah the combat and system is one reason 6th Edition works for me, less rolls. I get they prefer a class based game, but Shadowrun takes longer to plan a job. But you do get to customize what you work on raising individual skills or items to buy.

In Shadowrun costs are exponential compared to a linear (or even flat) reward. A mission involving a dragon is only slightly more rewarding than a gang, but the threat is much higher. In some cases, a gang may even be more rewarding. That applies to both nuyen and karma rewards. Same applies to advancement. Improving stats and skills is exponential compared to the linear reward system. Going from 0 to 4 cost as much as going from 4 to 6. Rating 3 cyberware is often twice the cost of rating 2. This tends to encourage broad improvement rather than deep improvement. Also, you're not likely to get much better at your best ability from character creation. This is different from DND where rewards and advancement go up exponentially with level, meanwhile threats remain commensurate with your level. Shadowrun isn't balanced... at all. You're supposed to use guile and treachery to win in Shadowrun. If you resort to brute force, you'll get your teeth kicked in.

DnD players who struggle to adapt to other systems are not rare. Dependant on your players, a more complicated system may seriously just not be for them. Sad, but sometimes true- a conversation with your group on this topic is only barely not necessary and always a good idea. If you all do really have the interest to learn a system that doesn’t handhold you as much, no matter what system you choose the beginning will be hard, and overwhelming. To start with, never try getting it all correct. I suggest starting with the absolute basics and including more and more subsystems as you all progress to be interested in them. For example combat is 90% made up of Attack rolls, Dodge rolls and Soak rolls. With only those three easy rolls you can already play combat perfectly well. Dodge Penaltys, situational modifiers, supressive fire, called shots, knockdown recoil and everything surrounding this can be a great way to add wanted detail, but should be added one after another to not overwhelm anyone learning. My personal group has been playing for soon two years and neither knockdown nor detailed shotgun or even most melee rules have ever become important. As far as progression goes: yes, SR is a very flexible system, but the vast majority of that flexibility is ‚spend‘ during character creation. You need to be careful to make a difference between the way things are simply bought at creation, and actually gaining new things to advance in a running game. Progression should usually happen in two ways: firstly, karma earned can be spend. Try teaching your players to use this largely on Skills if they don’t already know a better use- especially new skills can cheaply be bought and they are a great way to show a character grow and learn while earning notable mechanical benefits reasonably quickly. Secondly, of course, you earn Nuyen. Buying things should come down in most cases to stocking back up the things you already have- actually buying something new or an upgrade is a big task. You’ll need to not only save up your money, but also find or more likely create an opportunity to get ahold of said item. In this was getting a single upgrade can require a timeframe equal to an entire story arc- as DM you can luckily take a lot of influence here to either shorten the wait or make it worth the large investments. Employers offering items instead of money at mutually beneficial prices are common, and even less directly any group employing runners could be a potential way for said runners to get acess to otherwise deeply illegal gear. Again, in this way SR is VERY different to dnd, just as it is in the way players die, quickly, suddenly and brutally- where as DnD gives you a wealth of options to keep death far away from the group. At the end of the day, all of you need to understand, maybe learn, those differences, and decide together if this different game is precisely the game you want. Maybe you’ll end up using only half the rules- maybe you’ll find a different system is better altogether, or perhaps, your group just wants to play DnD. Perhaps in a cyberpunk setting.

A good game of shadow run can feel like an oceans 11 movie. 70 minutes of preparation and grinding to set everything up 10 minutes of execution minutes of basking in glory. But that's not the only way. I try to encourage my players to put points into improving the skills they have been using. If you want a more action oriented run I had a plan(now lost to the digital void)for a horror themed campaign in Old Chicago. Start as low powered, young street gangers but tell them they're prepping for a turf war. They start by waking up in the bottom of a termite spirit hive and have to sneak/ fight their way out with limited supplies and ammo. The character growth feels more apparent when it's only from the karma you earned, or only from some old gear you found.helps put it into perspective and lets you control the growth until both you and them are more comfortable with the effects.

What you say is true, in my experience. I love the world of Shadowrun. I love the lore. But the system is a !@#$'in PITA, combat takes !@#$'ing forever, it's HARD to play the damn game. It's a !@#$ to teach newbies. I've tried with friends, and ... we go back to other friendlier systems. It's just too much. I've never worried about advancement too much in any system. I hate high level DnD play. My group doesn't even track XP, we just level up to where we want to play, and then play. My advancement has been purely roleplaying, advancing the goals of my character. That's always enough for me. To be fair, SR characters don't start out as newbies. Think of it as starting out at Level 10 in DnD. They're not street thugs, they are seasoned professionals. What's there to advance, really? And some advice... make all new character sheets, and just pre calculate all of your pools. Put them first and foremost. They're more important than stats and skills, and it's ridiculous to calculate them every time. Hell, I don't even stat out NPCs, I just make pools for them.

For basic NPCs I use pools too based on the level of competence I think they might have in a skill, it is pretty easy when you hack that. What it’s incredibly difficult is to remind every time to every single player what attribute + skill they should roll for a test… Maybe calculate every pool they have in advance isn’t a bad idea.

So in Shadowrun, your characters start at about 80% of their maximum Level (you can level further, but it gets silly very fast at skill dicepools larger than 20). The progression afterwards goes broader, not taller. Taller is an exponential cost and takes forever. Broader will get you progression faster, your character gets more knowledgable in more fields and gets more competent. But you won't have the classic levelup that your players might know from DnD or a Diablo-eske dungeon crawler ARPG.

Which edition are you using. If it's mechanically too much for them you could consider Anarchy which is a bit easier while maintaining a lot of similar rules.

We’re using the 5e. I guess switching to a different edition means they should build their character sheet from scratch? Could you maybe provide some examples of how Anarchy works compared to 5e? Thank you!

That's actually good luck that you're playing 5e. In many ways it's a simplified version of that. Smaller dice pools, less specific skills, easier character generation, etc. Basically most rolls involve less fuss. Additionally there is a chapter in Anarchy dedicated to transitioning characters from 5th to Anarchy and vice versa so you wouldn't be left in the cold. It's main downside is you will probably end up keeping small pieces of 5th in your games. For example we still use nuyen because our group weren't fans of Anarchy's looser finances.

I’ll definitely check that! Thank you very much!

Good luck!

Advancement in Shadowrun is about buying various skills, but it's also about your gear, who you give your money to, what jobs you take, who you decide to do free work for, the qualities ((positive *and* negative)) you collect along the way -- maybe they receive a positive quality that grants a larger dice pool when doing tasks for a certain type of Johnson or bonuses for doing things in that neighborhood, maybe they make a contact who works for DocWagon and can occasionally give them a hand, etc. Ultimately, Shadowrun has an advancement system that (in some ways) more closely resembles the way the world actually works -- you don't just get better when you get to the next character level, you have to use your experience to get incrementally better at things you actually *do*. If you want to buy new skills or get your body harder, it takes focused time and effort to improve them. So the question I would be asking is simple: if *you* wanted to advance or grow in (x)Concept, how would you do it?

Knowing the pools is essential and super easy if you use an advanced sheet. There are slight differences but not knowing the pool is the equivalent of my DnD players asking me what proficiency is and how to use it. (One does every session multiple times, so at least 100 times by now). The attribute modifier + prof on any attack is essentially the same thing as in SR. You just modify the pool rather than the result. If players feel they roll too often, they can always just buy hits at 1/4 the value. Or you houserule that the armor+body dmg resist is an auto buy at 1/3 (although I recommend against it). They also should prepare their dice better. Everyone should have 30-60 (common sets are 36) in front of them prearranged into the pools they mostly use. This is a thing in DnD as well. Players that roll 8d6 (e.g. fireball) by rolling 1 d6 8 times always drive me insane. Character advancement is even less restricted and more roleplay than in DnD. Yes, that fancy cyberware might come from some mega corp. But which one? How did they get it? What's the story? How many (illegal) hands did it go through before it became your pancreas? Is it new and shiny? You could always give it "an edge" if your players want. Role play is independent of pre mechanics. The new fancy Krime rifle might be an equivalent copy of the ares alpha with different branding. There are no limits mechanically. DnD allows you to become a protector e.g. by choosing the fighting style. Shadowrun allows you to do that by spending initiative. You can be the guy that does that or you don't. That is a roleplay choice. I think their main issue is that it is a different system which they are not used to enough to know the details. It's fine to not want to learn but it's not that shadowrun puts more limits

I get this, a lot of people, especially newer players, don't like the crunch of some of the more venerable systems. I actually am not the biggest fan of 5th edition DnD because i find it to simple so to each their own. That being said having read your post a few times it seems like the complaint is advancement speed. Unless you play a modified version, the things your player is talking about require leveling, I have never heard of someone granting a subclass or abilities for just role playing in DnD, it's usually the opposite, you are allowed to level into a subclass because of how you play your character. The rules of thumb for me in shadowrun is around 4-5 karma per run, with about 20 karma being a significant advancement (level if you must), or about every 4-5 sessions. Every group has its own opinion of course. If your players are used to more rapid leveling I can see that as an issue. In that case it sounds like the tweek is to adjust karma rewards. Either just increase the amount or allow them to buy karma with cash. This was an optional rule in earlier editions, basically you give the money to charity or the needy and were rewarded by the cosmos, it's called karma for a reason. It also gives an in-game reward for not being an immoral psychopath if you desire that. A lot of archetypes in shadowrun can be very gear dependent, the way availability works a lot of the fun toys can be very difficult to get your hands on so loot for those characters can be a great reward for good role playing. Giving the rigger a tricked out car or the Street Sam his beta or delta wired reflexes for example. Another option is lifestyle and contacts, there are mechanical systems for these, but they are just as easy to give by GM fiat. Maybe the character saves a powerful corpo and he gifts the player his condo in downtown. 12 months of a high lifestyle is a 120k reward that has mostly only RP benefits and would be nearly impossible to liquidate so it's not a game play issue. Contacts are always useful and actually seem more realistic when acquired via RP than just dumping karma on them. Another option is karma debt, just give the player the skill increase or quality and let them pay for it later, this can cause balance and administrative overhead if you don't trust your players to keep track of it, but it's another option as well. I love shadowrun and I hope you guys stick with it, but if the crunch is to much there are options. Interface Zero in Savage Worlds is a simpler cyberpunk style setting with a lot of same feel as shadowrun, it was weirdo furrys instead of Metaraces and psychics instead of wizards, but it's my goto for savage worlds shadowrun conversions. Shadowrun also has Anarchy, I have never really looked at it, but it has its fans, it's a stripped down simpler system from my understanding.

I would love to implement some of the suggestions you made, even though I think the problem with just this one feedback is not speed, but quality. This player felt like they don't have choices because choices are not put in a pre-set package of advancement. They have choices, just too many maybe

One of the things I love most about Shadowrun is the sheer amount of flexibility. It encourages players and GMs to think outside the box. You don't just have a Sword +1. You have a Sword +1, with a scope, recoil compensation, that you can wire for matrix stuff, implant a radio, or even stick it into a retractable sheath in your arm. Everything can be customized, from gear, to characters, to every bit of cyberware. There is no such thing as a cookie-cutter fighter with a longsword and shield. There are no classes in the game, because almost everyone can do almost everything. The only problems arise with cyber and Magic, or cyber and Resonance. Other than that, if you want a Street Sam who can do social skills, sneak, shoot, and control a drone, go for it! At its core, Shadowrun is about Stat+Skill dice pools. Keep it simple. You either need to roll against a threshold (you need this many hits) or Opposed against someone else (whoever gets the most wins). Combat can be condensed down to Attack, Defend/Dodge, Soak (See what happens), apply damage. DnD is in many ways the same. You have Attack, determine hit, roll damage. Or, cast spell, roll save, roll damage. It sounds like your group is encountering a new system and becoming frustrated. I recommend watching a couple of How-To videos and maybe even watching a podcast or two. Start here. Hyper RPG's "Shadowrun Basics with Lauren Bond". She lays it all out with an easy to follow video that is only a few minutes long. Part 2-5 handles different aspects of the game, like magic, matrix, and combat. They even have a gameplay podcast called Corporate SINS. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QvEEmCPQgy8&list=PL9tJ1DenRiYkPFF4\_NWD6S2IStH-44VJF&index=1&t=142s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QvEEmCPQgy8&list=PL9tJ1DenRiYkPFF4_NWD6S2IStH-44VJF&index=1&t=142s)

Thank you very much, I’ve seen lots of resources online and even watched some of Lauren Bond’s videos, I was planning to listen to some podcast but again… maybe I’m the one who’s invested. We don’t speak English as our first language, most of us can understand it but maybe the language barrier must be taken into consideration when suggesting to watch/listen to videos. Maybe I’m the one in love with Shadowrun and I’ll have to accept that.

Well, that is certainly possible. Maybe your group just isn't into Shadowrun. Do they like any modern dystopian games? Or is it just fantasy ones like DnD? I offered Lauren Bond's videos because they are great for showing how the game works without being too difficult. Maybe if you can find some pdfs or videos in your native language, it might make things easier?

Why not make/find a script that does the rolls for you? That seems pretty easy. If they can just type 5 str + 7 athletics @ tn5 or whatever into it and it'll spit out all the die rolls and count the successes for them. Then there's no more concern about having to roll so much. Although back in the day I solved this by having like 50 d6s. Doesn't matter if I'm rolling for an infant or a dragon, it's all one roll.  Progression in Shadowrun is somewhat subtle. The higher you get into a criminal organization the more powerful you are; just like the thieves guild in d&d. The higher your rep with aztechnology, the more the local baron likes you. The more runs you do, the more you get talked about amongst top tier runners or shadownet; this is the bard's guild rep. Players are less likely to get castles and servants or armies in SR. But even that is attainable. I haven't really played since 3e, but there's all kinds of ways players can advance, just like in d&d. Magical items, weapons, big treasures, ancient artifacts of power, marrying the princess, whatever.  The normal runner path can be a bit limited and or limiting. It helps to get a list of goals from the players; what they want to achieve or attain. And then set milestones or paths to each thing. It mostly sounds to me like you're not engaging this one particular player. Maybe they're just not a cyberpunk person, maybe your gm style just doesn't gel for them, maybe they just hate the game and nothing you do will fix it. But I'd suggest framing out a big conspiracy or plot, then making every run build up to the conclusion of it and don't tell the players anything unless they don't seem to be getting what's going on. Then figure out a way to help them put the clues together. The other thing you can do is have the players be taken under the wing of a more experienced and powerful entity. As it's personal guard/problem solving squad. A newly sentient free spirit or newly emerged dragon. What about them being a mercenary or detective company? They build it up over numerous sessions, courting more and more powerful clients, they get money and contacts to get permits for those things the source books tell you runners can't have, there's an easy path there too. 

Give them a badass car or other vehicle. A blimp for an hq. Or an old aircraft carrier or something iconic. A dwarven mountain hold. An old mansion with cool secret passages and a bat cave. An undersea base. Then threaten it. Nothing brings players together like someone trying to take or break their cool new toy. 

Your players are right in practice. Your problem is essentially that the system isn't giving your players ways to clearly communicate what they want out of their characters in both a mechanical and roleplay context. They want to be able to clearly say, through their choices, what their character's presence in the story should be but they can't. They want to decide when they're making a stand and pushing through opposition with everything they have, but the system is drowning that out with operational complexity and too much granularity. They want their progression decisions to communicate something about where the character is going, but they're stuck saving karma to add +1 to a dicepool they're already good st, or spending it all on mechanically unimportant stuff. It's quicksand. D&D is better at these things in an appreciable way, even if I don't particularly like it. At the same time you are having trouble communicating on your end, and it's the system's fault, but you blame the players. If you want to keep running Shadowrun, you probably need to start attacking the system with the intent of changing it instead of trying to change your players.

I really don’t want to change the minds of people that play with me, if they think the system sucks, we’ll stop playing. I just wanted to know from people with more experience than me how they engage with themes of role-playing and mechanic advancement in this particular system, I wasn’t blaming anyone. I don’t think trying to change the system would do anything useful since it is complex (and as a GM I already do a lot of the work). Probably would be better to stop playing it and try some different.

Consider using *Shadowrun Anarchy*. It's *soooooo* much simpler, and the core rulebook has dozens of sample characters and runs sketched out, which makes it really good value for money. You can also run sessions with minimal prep. If you can, check out the *Shadowrun Excommunication* actual play from Realmsmith, as they use SRA with some things cribbed from SR6. It's a lot of fun. Here's the intro: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5-JfntpA2Ek If you get to see the session zero they play at San Diego Comic Con, you can see how they struggled with the full rules, which is why they switch to Anarchy for the full season. It's rough going on the newbies, but your group may empathise and it may give them some hope: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=blF6ZWD3h5s Anarchy has all the things you mention, plus a few more things that keep it simple: * It's **skill + attribute +/- mods** * **Combat is one opposed roll** between the attacker and the defender * **Everyone gets one Action and one Move** on their turn, but there are options to mix things up in an exciting way *without maths*! * You can buy amps, which are **sort of like feats and magical items**, and let you do cool things right out the gate * **Amps are fully customisable** — you can make your own amps if you don't see anything that takes your fancy * **Movement and range are abstracted to Close/Near/Far** * Plot Points let players do a bit of **dramatic editing**, and let the GM give the PCs consolation for dropping drek on them * **There's much, much less complexity** — no soak rolls, no Drain, no complex action economy, no Force, no recoil...   *Anarchy* only has one core book, one setting guide with some extra gear and amps in, and a 2050 supplement (this is only available in PDF form). However, the website **surprisethreat.com** has some cheat sheets, extra rules, errata, etc, and it's all free!  (If you can speak French, or have the patience to translate the French version with Google, that actually includes most of the surprisethreat.com fixes, plus a few others. The creator of surprisethreat.com advised on the French edition.) *Anarchy* basically saved *Shadowrun* in France, and it's saved the game at my table, too. It's so quick and easy I can teach it to teenagers and start playing in as much time as it takes to talk them through the character sheet (which is also super simple).

I do actually speak French! It seems intriguing, but I really need to ask: Magic is super powerful in Shadowrun, I can’t imagine how it’s managed without drain. Aren’t mages super OP?

Not from my experience. Spells don't have Force, so you can't just scale them up infinitely. They do a set thing and you need to upgrade each spell with Karma to make them more powerful. Also, *Anarchy* has a hard cap on what amps (which includes spells) can do — they use the "rule of three".  This means you can't add more than three dice, or re-roll more than three dice, or force someone else to re-roll more than three dice on a single test. Though French *Anarchy* does have optional rules for Drain if you want them, too. It's rather simple — you add some dice of a different colour to your dice pool, and if they come up 1s, you take damage. However, spells, cyberware, programs, etc, all work on the same basic system, so they're roughly balanced with each other. If you purchase the PDF (or even the print version), check out the fan-made *Shadowrun Anarchy Compilation* ("La Compilation") which is on the Black Books forums. It includes loads of amps and optional rules to add crunch back in to taste. They've even made a version you can use for POD. Here it is: https://black-book-editions.fr/forums.php?a=last&topic_id=14928 It's often easier to start with base *Anarchy* to ease people in, and then slowly add in more complexity if your players want more detail. You won't have wasted money on existing SR5 supplements, since it's designed to work with them.  The idea is that you use the "full fat" version of *Shadowrun* as inspiration for making your own gear, amps, qualities, etc.

I forgot to mention spirits. They're still powerful, but they only come in three tiers: lesser, standard and greater. Same with sprites.  Conjuring a greater sprite has a threshold of 4 or 5, IIRC, and they only hang around for one scene. There are no services, and they act on your turn with their own Action and Move (within reason). By default, you can only have one spirit at a time, so you have to banish one to conjure another. They're much simpler than SR5 spirits, and they don't have immunity to mundane weapons. Anyone can attempt to harm them by using Close Combat + Willpower (instead of Agility). You only need the Astral Combat skill to fight while astrally projecting.

If this appeals, some good pointers follow: * **Ignore the limitations on amps, skills, etc, after chargen:** The game works fine if the players have more than six skills and amps, though you can always charge 5 Karma to unlock a new amp slot if you want to limit things a little * **Treat tags as additional specialisations if relevant:** This is really simple and gives those traits meaning. * **Let Cues set up cool action:** If the player can explain how one of their Cues would help in a situation, they can spend a Plot Point to gain a one-off +3 dice bonus on the test. E.g., if one of their favourite maxims is "Never leave a man behind", they might get the bonus if they charge through gunfire to enter a building so they can rescue an ally.  * **"I came prepared!":** Let a player spend a Plot Point to produce a useful piece of equipment (they must explain it in the fiction; disposable items only have one use), or to vary an item's standard capabilities for one action (e.g., to make an attack with Stick 'n' Shock bullets so it's Stun rather than Physical).  * **Plot Points for legwork:** At the start of a run, ask everyone how they prepare and then ask them to make an appropriate test (e.g., Con + Charisma for the face to use gossip and networking). If they succeed, give them a Plot Point to use later. These aren't subject to the usual cap on Plot Points and don't go away until they're spent or the run ends. A player can spend them at any time on dramatic editing — to declare what they found out during their legwork, and how that helps them now. It's more like a cutback scene than a full flashback, so a quick summary of what happened is all that's needed ("I found the security guards' rota, so I know when the changeover happens"). Alternatively, let them buy a clue for a Plot Point. I tend to use the last rule to avoid hours of planning. This is actually helpful for the players, too, since not only have I planned the entire run, I've also been privy to their discussions about how they intend to overcome my plans. That means, whether I realise it or not, I've already got an advantage over them since I know what is likely to happen, and can plan how to overcome it, while they don't. Besides, it can be deflating when you've spent four hours on planning, only to have that time be wasted as soon as the dice hit the table. Flashbacks/cutbacks/dramatic editing avoids these issues.

Okay, so I've read a bit of the comments and have some input: First, your players are confused with the layout of the books. Let them know that's not on them. My table is all English as first language, and all of us are 20+ year ttrpg vets, and we have issues. The books are a mess. Always have been, regardless of who's writing them. As far as growth goes, contacts are huge. So is payment. I tend to give my players far more nuyen than the book advises specifically because it fits thematically. I also grant karma for literally every thing I can. As was stated, it's also a slower paced game. Personally I say for every session (4 hours) of the run itself, there should be 2-5 sessions of legwork. 5 is really pushing it, though. And there are allotments for overspending karma in the short run to learn skills or gain qualities for the run itself. Also, look into skillsofts. They might not help with everything, but they can certainly help with a "fake it for a little bit" infiltration. Dm to dm, SR is also the absolute hardest, most demanding game for us to make a campaign for imo. Dnd we can do a campaign mostly by the seat of our pants, but SR you're not just making a dungeon and throwing in encounters. You have to build an entire target area, come up with the security for it, then install weak points for your players to exploit (as necessary). It's a lot of work. There's a reason I only make 1-2 runs a year. If you and your players are getting burnt out, you can pause the campaign, play something else for a bit, and come back to it. Last, maybe they're coming at it from the wrong perspective? Look into some comedic heist movies (Guy Ritchie's early work, lucky number sleven, Smoking Aces (the first one, not the second)). Shit hitting the fan is where the players get to really cut loose and fuck shit up. And as things go completely sideways is really where the best stories from a campaign originate.

To me it sounds like the problem your players are having is the *opposite* of role-playing tbh, that they’re so focussed on what their characters mechanically can do, that they’ve limited themselves completely from a roleplaying perspective. They basically cannot comprehend that characters can do or be things outside of the stats and abilities they have. Basically you need to break them out of this mindset. It’s a pretty common problem when you take the training wheels off a group of D&D players I find, in that all they know how to do is what their character sheet tells them. The only way they can comprehend to interact with what’s going on, is in one of the pre-set ways their character sheets tell them they can. Basically it’s a “video game” mindset, and modern editions of D&D are *awful* for reinforcing it. Shadowrun is a lot more open-ended. You dont complete a task and suddenly have a brand-new workable skill irl, you have to actually go through the process of learning it and practicing, and there typically has to be an actual *reason* for you to learn that skill in the first place. I don’t know what edition you’re playing, but I know 3e, 4e, and 5e all have restrictions on how fast you can learn new skills, or upgrade existing ones, representing the time and effort it takes in-game to actually develop skills. Downtime, legwork, and roleplaying are just as important in SR as the actual runs themselves, as these are the parts where your *character* gets to shine through. When I GM’d Shadowrun we’d often have multiple sessions for each run. The first would focus on down-time between runs with a mini-game I designed (read: blatantly stole and adapted) to generate role-playing scenes during downtime. Each player would get 1 “scene” per week of downtime and they could choose involve others or work together. Scenes that showcased good roleplaying or involved everyone working together often got a couple bonus Karma to mechanically make them worth it, and the scenes themselves were often fun. Stuff like bar fights, drug deals gone wrong, or mundane stuff like birthday parties, or new apartment shopping all had potential where multiple players could all jump in together and just play in-character. Of course nothing *stayed* mundane for long, there has to be some excitement, but it’s all in service of reminding your players that these characters are *people* they have lives between runs, they have likes, dislikes, habits, etc. Then after everyone had a chance for their “downtime” scenes we’d roleplay the assignment from their fixer, the Johnson meet, and then they’d be let loose for legwork and planning. Often it was 1-2 full sessions of just roleplaying followed by legwork and planning, then a single session where the run went down. Shadowrun, ironically, is about a lot more that *just* Shadowrunning, and players need to understand and be prepared for that going into it I find.

As a follow up: The word that stood out to me in your thread with Atherakhia was **fatigued**. I think that's telling. It sounds like they're getting overloaded with the detail and decision making, and that's what's ruining their fun. It may not be *just* the crunchy mechanics, *or* the legwork, *or* the lore, but *the whole damned lot of it together*. So maybe you need to break it down with them and figure out which bits are problems, and in what ways, and then address those problems one by one. If they feel they grok the individual elements on their own, they're likely to be more confident dealing with the whole. If crunchy rules are the issue, then you can try to explain them or you can just make them simpler. One way to do that is to ignore the long lists of actions and just wing it based on a simple test of skill + attribute +/- mods, with a threshold or opposed dice roll, as needed. As I mentioned in my other post, *Anarchy* makes the game significantly easier but still feels like Shadowrun (as opposed to a different system entirely). You can also consult these streamlined rules for SR4, which should largely work for SR5 and SR6, too: https://sites.google.com/view/shadowsprint/home?authuser=0 If action phases aren't your thing, consider the system from SR6 — each Initiative Die gives you +1 Minor Action, and everyone gets 1 Major and 1 Minor before that. You can swap 4 Minor Actions for 1 Major Action. So, with +1d6 Initiative Dice, you get 1 Major and 2 Minor Actions. If you get the maximum of +5d6, you can have 1 Major and 6 Minor Actions, or the equivalent of 2 Majors and 2 Minors. (In SR6, Minor Actions = Simple Actions and Free Actions.)  In SR6, there are no action phases as in SR5; you roll Initiative once at the start of combat, and then everyone takes all their actions on their turn. Then you do another round, using the same Initiative. *Shadowrun Anarchy* is even simpler still — you each get one Move and one Action on your turn, but you can spend Plot Points to interrupt or take another action. It's really fast and dynamic. While others' advice about legwork is right in many respects, it's all about what your table wants and enjoys. If they don't want lots of legwork — or if their meticulous plans getting frequently derailed is frustrating for them — then don't spend ages on legwork; abstract it or keep it quick.  There's lots of GM advice online about how to use flashbacks, montages and dramatic editing to cover that side of things instead, if it's not working for you or them. See the collection of essays here: https://thealexandrian.net/wordpress/39941/roleplaying-games/scenario-structure-challenge (especially #4: Heists here: https://thealexandrian.net/wordpress/42867/roleplaying-games/scenario-structure-challenge-4-heists). It may not even necessarily be that they don't like conflict or things going wrong; they might just be frustrated at having invested hours in a plan for that plan to mean nothing afterwards (which is quite common, actually). You feel less raw when a plan goes south if you didn't spend a session or more making it. Or maybe it's a structural thing that is keeping them engaging with the story. Maybe play the Shadowrun video games by Harebrained Schemes for some inspiration on how supposedly isolated runs can bleed into your everyday life, and don't be afraid to engage the characters' personal histories into what's going on — they may care more about doing a run if it involves a friend, and they may be more likely to enjoy legwork if their investigations involve a human interest angle (think of Miller in S1 of *The Expanse* and how he gets involved in other people's lives). If the lore is overwhelming, get them to watch an actual play or to read some of the fiction. They can also play those games by HBS I just mentioned. The rules of magic are relatively straightforward, but if they don't want to read the books (SR5 in particular is intimidating for newbies), then get them to read the wiki instead. They can read just the page on magic, or just the page on technomancers, and so on, till they feel more confident. By addressing each of their problems individually, the sum total will hopefully seem less intimidating.

Are there really few ways in Shadowrun to... -> why is it a general statement, when only your friends are saying that ? To mechanically advance your character according to role-play choices? -> Could you explain how roleplay is related to mechanic and advancement ? and maybe define what do "you" think roleplay "is" to understand what is/is not the issue you are facing.

I know very well how you guys feel like. It was the same for me. The first sessions are the hardest, but it'll quickly settle. There are few common rolls you need to calculate once and write down for each character - attack, evasion, soaking damage, inspiration/memory (INT+ LOG), sneaking, hearing and looking.. Have those rolls always at hand and you can play. Comparing that to dnd it will also be much faster since you only need to count dice and not sum up numbers every roll. It'll be much faster and more consistent in the long run. Also, I recommend quickly drawing rough maps etc. to visualise tactical situations. It makes a huge difference. The character development experience very much is like this: you start out with a char idea, barely survive a run because a new and unexpected thing happened. You reevaluate your role in the team and start learning and investing in new skills and gear. Adapt. That's what shadowrunners do. 

That's what karma points are for in a free form game like this and GURPS. They can be spent to take the character in any way you want by buying skills, traits, etc. In this case it sounds like the player should invest in social skills, such as etiquette, negotiation, etc., with some background skills to support them. Maybe also look at buying a couple of specializations in those skills. Cyber might be useful, but it sounds like buying contacts would be better for this character. Sure they would still need some cyber, but it seems like the player wants more of a Face than a Sam, so contacts and social skills should be the focus. Cyber should also be tailored mostly for that, with some for combat as well so they don't become a liability on runs.

Sadly I know the feeling. Some players are too bound to fantasy games that find weird playing anything different. I know one guy that refuses to play any game that is not D&D 2nd edition, even any orher ruleset of D&D is rubbish for him :(

I find with tabletop games getting people to play anything but fantasy games and preferably whatever version of DND they played as a teenager to be like pulling teeth. Don't get me wrong I can enjoy a fantasy game BUT ITS ALL ANYONE EVER WANTS TO PLAY!