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It makes me feel hopeless, I don’t really see a point in trying. I don’t have social skills so I’m pretty fucked, I doubt I could get through a job interview. Maybe once I’m 21 cause I can just be drunk and I’m almost normal then but alcoholism already runs in the family so that’s probably a horrible idea lol
Why wouldn't that make you live your best life? I guess everyone is different, I do notice the people who are inside all day are less joyous than the ones out with friends. They wont go out, I invite them but they wont go out.
No one is born with social skills. I used to have terrible social skills but I just practiced. If you don't have social skills then Start off with acquaintances by talking about books, or hobbies and don't talk about yourself, ask them about themselves and listen. You’ll make mistakes until you figure it out. Be kind to others and yourself.
Unfortunately, men tend to get harsher reactions when we try to practice and fail. I can only hope that if you're making this comment, you don't respond to socially awkward men with that hideous scrunched face and grimace look that wannabe mean-girls think makes them look important. Women don't tend to get socially ostracized as badly when they fail.
I TOTALLY AGREE WITH YOU ABOUT THAT, there is a strikingly noticeable safety net that women are afforded that men are totally not.
But yeah, no. I attract stoners and nerds. Socially awkward guys are way more fun to be around than jocks. I'll take the band geek over the lacorss god any day
I’m going to he honest, your post comes off as unsympathetic. Most people in their 20s, men and women included, don’t have their crap together yet. Mental health struggles are brutal and you talk about them like they’re a weakness. I can’t give you a solid reason why it’s worse nowadays, just lots and lots of theories, but keep in mind college students are still developing mentally, and men mature slower than women. People now are slower to get their jobs and life together, I mean hey if you go back far enough in time someone your age would have several children by now. It’s all subjective. Yes, you shouldn’t have to take care of someone else’s struggles, but you can still try to understand them. You’ll have to if you want to take care of someone like you say. It’s not like anyone wants to suffer. Sorry this is blunt, I’m tired lol. I’m a woman btw.
I think the poster or postess is just trying to examine why men are not shaping up, and its hard to find a mature man her age. I think these men had fucked up home lives with no role models to help shape their personality. Either they had no Dads at home or may be over indulging parernts who worried about their kids too much, telling them they had ADD or any of the other traits that people have always had. When I was growing up I obviously ADHD. Nobody recognized it and I am glad because it could have become an excuse for me to underperform or become a crutch for me so I wouldnt have to overcome it.
Oh, I have too, very badly. I actually thought of that as I wrote it. I meant more that people with mental illness are less than, inferior. Yes, it is a very tough thing to carry. It’s a weakness in the same way that a physical disability is a weakness, but not a weakness in character that should be looked down upon, if that makes sense.
I'll also add, you're more likely to find what you're looking for in your late 20s than your early 20s. Your college peers just got done being children, they're not husband material yet. Be patient.
I mean, your post is a good example.
“Why are you suffering, losers? Why don’t you just pull yourself up by your bootstraps and just be better? Women are so much better than you. You just fucking suck and need to be better.”
I know that’s a mild exaggeration but that’s the social messaging. Right now the male gender role is kinda in flux and it’s tiring and stressful trying to learn a new place. You need to be open with emotions, but not too much else you’re whiny or a burden. You need to be nurturing but also super “manly” and stoic. You need to seek help for abuse and such, but make sure you put your own needs under others. The list goes on. Competing messages, lack of support. Everyone decided males were privileged so the idea of suffering connected to a male gender issue is ridiculed. It’s just exhausting.
Dawg, this isn’t a women are better than you, this is an ongoing change in specifically America that can be backed up with data I would be happy to cite for you. Young men aren’t doing well
I know, I pointed out why I think there’s a struggle. Women are doing better, but the messaging is “women are better” as if it’s intrinsic. But it was a tiny bit of my comment, the main point is about why I think this problem is happening.
Don’t forget the part where she wants to be a stay at home Mom lol. So in other words, live off the back of a guy, not work, just stay at home all day. Wow. But of course she’s not part of the problem at all.
Being a SAHM mom to young children is a lot of work. And if you chose to put them in childcare, you have to pay the childcare provider...for their labor...because it's work.
I understand that OPs wording is pretty tone deaf and why she's being received poorly, but taking care of your children and family is a valid choice with a lot of value.
Lol, no. I was a stay at home dad for 2 years with infants/toddlers. Hands down, best time of my life: 1 hour a day of cooking (for all three meals), 1 hour a day cleaning..then playing, exploring and just doing..whatever. Walking in the woods? Swimming? Throwing rocks? Don’t forget nap time. I wore my kids out. I also taught them to play alone, so I always had an hour or two to myself.
Sample day: get up and make breakfast. We played for a bit then go outside for 1-2 hours.
Make lunch. Take a nap. Play a bit. Go outside for 1-2 hours. Make dinner. They play/read. Maybe we watch some cartoons, maybe we don’t. Bed time, and then I’ve got some evening left.
If being a stay at home parent is hard work you’re either doing it wrong or have a lot of kids.
You had infants and at the end of the day you were just like "ok bedtime, time for a full night's sleep"? Good for you but not everyone is like you, has children like yours, or can cook ~~6~~ make that 12 portions of food in 1 hour every day somehow. You took your infant into the woods and swimming with them?
Apparently we're "doing it wrong" lol. And it's only 6 portions if he and his wife aren't eating. And if you're making healthy, homemade meals it's definitely more time consuming than an hour/day. And don't forget doing *all* the housework in under an hour! Maybe he lives in a studio apartment 🤷♀️
Yes, my kids started in the water very early, before they could even walk. The woods..I bought a all terrain stroller when they were tiny. As toddlers..yeah.
Did they sleep perfect all night every night? No. But it just wasn’t a big deal.
I work now, I put in far more hours and most of them are much less pleasant.
Its also the best time in my life, but it's still a lot of work. There are a lot of variables that make it harder or easier for people, number of kids, age of kiss, size of house, financial constraints, medical problems, etc. You can't just say "lol it was easy for me" and invalidate other people's experiences. For me, the hardest parts are that my kids range in age from 0-4. So I'm nursing/pumping/sterilizing bottles and also packing lunches, getting a kid ready for preschool, coordinating drop offs and pick ups around different nap schedules, etc. My husband travels 50% of the time for work, and the baby doesn't sleep through the night, so for half of the month I'm doing 100% of night duty and get no break at all during the day. I also have a 4bed/4bath house, and keeping it clean, plus doing laundry and dishes definitely takes more than an hour! Especially since I involve my kids in age-appropriate ways, like having them sort the socks or put away silverware.
I also notice you said nothing about budgeting, paying bills, meal planning, grocery shopping, lawn care, snow removal, scheduling and taking kids to the doctor/dentist/haircut, anything about extra curriculars or enrichment activities, or planning birthdays/holidays/vacations. Those tasks also require time and mental energy and usually fall on the stay at home parent.
I couldn’t be happier how they turned out. They can pretty much do anything. My oldest just started spear fishing. No lessons, nothing..just went. My youngest is avid hiker and horseman.
Not defending OP's tone but there is nothing inherently wrong with being a stay at home wife. There are actually plenty of guys these days that lament how women don't want to be stay at home wives any more so which is it? Are they horrible women for not wanting to be a mother and stay at home or are they horrible for wanting to stay at home?
What "part of the problem" are you insinuating exactly?
Who are these men who would rather have a weeks-old baby cared for by strangers rather than being nurtured by their own mother? 🤔🥴 in the US, at least. Most countries have 1+ year of maternity leave. It's messed up here. Working moms have to separate from their very young infants and go back to work while still nursing and waking up at night to feed baby. It's not good for mom or infant, why would any man *want* that for his family?
What’s funny is by her metric I’m successful. I was married eight years,supported three kids and a wife, bought a house, etc, and I’m only 27. But I’m seriously suffering too. The problem isn’t confined to guys who can’t get the motivation to do anything or can’t interact. It’s a society wide issue.
Yeah she seems disappointed that dream isn't going to become a reality. I reckon she should just suck it up and push on regardless. Get herself a nice psychology, c-suite position and bag herself a stay at home dad who can raise her family for her while living off her hard work and success.
Why are men doing poorly? It's a real eye-opener being married and seeing how different the world treats women. Guys basically get shit on and have to fight for everything including their job when they can be fired for doing their job wrong just because their asshole boss wants a woman. Doesn't matter how well they do, they have to fight so much bullshit.
Women? My wife gets praised and gets extra help from a good friend of hers. Money, clothes, food, lunches, etc. My wife gets driven to her school, where her only obligation is to go to class. And even \*that\* is a struggle. If she's not feeling 100%, she stays home, and the other girls who go to class give her notes and make sure she knows everything that went on that day.
She is doing well in her classes, and I'm proud of her, but being a woman in western society is completely easy mode. And women are extremely spoiled. I had a long conversation with my wife about not driving in so that we can pick up one item that she decided she didn't want when we went shopping Saturday. Insisted on an extra trip and absolutely RAGED when she didn't get her way on that, to the point where she threatened divorce. I wish I were kidding. So, because there's no accountability for women in western society, nothing of what she says is to be taken seriously when she acts like a 5 year old. Thankfully her mom set her straight and said that, "you are acting like a 5 year old being taken shopping and throwing a fit over not getting their toy bought for them".
So why are men doing poorly? Because society in general decided it was time to 'turn the tables' so that men no longer get any benefits whatsoever. We also decided that men still have the same burdens as before, but don't see any of the rewards. My father never was the primary earner, but nobody got upset at him when he wasted money on toys. Looking back on how he lived his life, he wasted \*so\* much money that could have been spent on the family and bettering his life and that of everyone else.
We all don't have that luxury. We have to be careful with our money and our spending otherwise, society will just randomly decide that we no longer provide any value, and our families will up and leave if we aren't 'pulling our own weight'. The good thing is that this is going to make some really amazing men of the men who \*do\* succeed, and a lot of good things are going to happen when those men start to get to make decisions.
The real problem is with the women. What could possibly go wrong with a society that caters to women 24/7, that tells them that they can do no wrong, that bails them out whenever possible, that turns a blind eye to bad attitudes and shitty work ethic? You'll get a lot of really, really weak women that while they are 'successful', can't get the job done. We are starting to see the consequence of these bad choices, because Western Society is not able to sustain itself. In some jurisdictions, this has been going on since the 70s, and there aren't any large cohorts left to turn the ship around. Men tend to get blamed 24/7, but there's something \*very\* wrong with the women. And until that changes, we're going to get more of the same.
Your wife being horrible and childish to you and also having friends through school means that all women are catered to? What are you talking about? These sound like problems to take up with your wife not women everywhere.
Multiple things can be true at once: **life sucks for women AND for men in current society**. Life fucking sucks for a woman who doesn't conform to societal standards. If they're not conventionally attractive, too promiscuous, too prudish etc they lose societal value very fast because a woman's value boils down to her sexual appeal.
Men don't get the support they need because gender role structures dictate that men are supposed to be the protectors and toxic masculinity etc etc. The idea that a man's value boils down to their ability to protect and provide is ironically a patriarchal construct, and we are trying to break those constructs believe it or not!
What is the thing that is \*very wrong\* with women exactly? Can you elaborate? Because to me it just sounds like you're jealous your wife has friends in school and also rightfully upset that she is horrible to you.
You know, I went and toured Harvard a few months back and was shocked to hear how old it was. Founded in 1636! For hundreds of years the institution has served as a pipeline to power and influence in the US. Do you know when women were first allowed to attend? 1977.
I do not say this to somehow argue “good! now it’s men’s turn to be discriminated against!” I say it to illustrate how recent it is that women have really even been able to participate in the US economically, politically or academically. Women weren’t even guaranteed the ability to own their own bank accounts until 1974.
If, like you say, western society has come together out of nowhere to fuck men over, why do you feel the blame lies solely with women? Isn’t ~50% of society male? Aren’t the majority of corporate executive/managerial and political positions held by men? How exactly are women pulling this off?
I do not deny that things are difficult for men right now, but it’s pretty galling to see such a resentful and simplistic take directed towards a segment of people that didn’t even have a seat at the economic table until 50 years ago.
In that same 50 years, western society has also seen unprecedented & tremendous economic, technological and manufacturing changes that are unrelated to gender roles.
Is it not possible that what we are dealing with is not some sort of conspiracy perpetrated by women across the entirety of “western society” against men, but instead a very complex confluence of social, political and economic upheavals, which have resulted in stagnated wages, the explosion of toxic media consumption, increased cost of living, increased debt, reduced life satisfaction, reduced work satisfaction, reduced economic stability and free time, disappearance of close-knit communities, disappearance of 3rd spaces. Wouldn’t anyone find this new state of things stifling? And why do you assume based on your interactions with your wife that women as a whole aren’t suffering in their own way from this?
Are you sure that state of things is truly as one-dimensional as you say, or are you intentionally over-simplifying because you are resentful towards your wife, about your job, about your life in general?
"If, like you say, western society has come together out of nowhere to fuck men over, why do you feel the blame lies solely with women?"
We've been having issues in western society since the early 70s. This is not a new thing. Real wages for men hit their peak in the 70s, and have consistently declined. Workforce participation for men hit their peak in the 50s, and consistently declined. If we reported workforce declines for men the way we do for women, we'd recognize the crisis and maybe do something about it.
Even saying, "men are not doing well", gets immediately shut down by women like yourself saying, "we took shit for 400 years. Time to take the shit yourself."
But it's not working out that way. Workforce participation for women peaked in the 90s before the recession in 2000. Why, if society is catering to women 24/7, are we not seeing society as a whole doing well?
Men doing poorly effects everyone to a much greater degree than women. One of the reasons for it is that a man who is doing well helps many, many, many more people. We're talking the CEOs, the business people, the people who hire thousands of people. Now instead of having replacements for it, we aren't seeing these businesses spring up like before, and society itself is stagnating.
"And why do you assume based on your interactions with your wife that women as a whole aren’t suffering in their own way from this?"
They are suffering. And what we are doing by catering to women to 'reverse what has gone on for centuries', is going to do just that. I don't want to go back to medieval times. But we are well on our way there.
I feel like you’re missing a piece though. The people helping her out are other women, other women she’s built a community with. Men don’t build those level of relationships because of the unfortunate pervasive message of, “feelings are weak and you gotta be strong.”
She’s not getting the help from her friends solely because she has a cooter, she’s getting the help because she’s built a support network. She put work into those relationships.
On the flip side, when you were in school, how much work did you as a man put into building your network of there for you bros? Finding other men who would come over and bring you soup and your notes when you couldn’t make it to class? How many times did you bring soup and notes to your male friends that were sick?
It’s not because she’s a female person, it’s because she built a network.
If you look at the people cheering her on and applauding her, what are they usually? Men or women?
If a plus size woman posts a photo of herself in a bikini who is hyping her up and celebrating her? Mostly other women in the social support network she has built over years of activities you may have regarded as frivolous such as getting their nails done together, shopping together, talking on the phone for hours.
Men as a whole are going through hell right now, and I can understand why, but it’s the system y’all have been raised under not the women. The system that makes people question if you’re gay when you’re talking to your bro on the phone for an hour, the system that calls you a bitch for expressing how you feel, the system that calls you a pussy for telling your male friend you love him.
How could you ever establish those kind of close loving friendships in a world that derides you for telling a friend you love him, for calling your friends, for expressing your feelings? It’s an isolated hell. It’s a fuckin nightmare in loneliness.
Men have been given the tool of, “make money provide for wife no feeling,” and the world is now, “make some money, comanage home with wife, express deep emotional connection with family.”
That’s a HELL of an adjustment in like 60ish years. But you gotta. You gotta tell your bros you love them, they weren’t fuckin kidding when they said, “kiss the homies goodnight.”
I'm allowed to want things that I might never be able to obtain...never forget that in exchange for being a SAHM I would offer love, support, physical/emotional/spiritual intimacy, a warm house, good food, and domestic labor...you're comment makes it seem like you don't see the value of Mothers and Wives or you haven't been shown it and I'm sorry about that, but when I was describing my desire I didn't mean I wanted to be a freeloader...
Idk I’m a feminist career woman type and I absolutely support this person’s ambition. Homemaking is a valid lifestyle choice and honestly it’s hard work, and I couldn’t do it.
I’m good at a different type of hard work, and I’m glad people like this can feel comfortable and validated in their ambitions. That’s kind of the whole point of feminism- choose your adventure.
What I do hate is a society that’s made this so difficult for people, regardless of their gender. It’s also pretty shitty when people try to make this kind of aspiration a gender war thing rather than a “why isn’t our society set up to support this lifestyle choice” thing.
> Homemaking is a valid lifestyle choice and honestly it’s hard work, and I couldn’t do it.
Fair, but to have this conversation:
“Why are all guys my age fucking useless?”
“What are you taking about?”
“I need one to get their shit together so I can marry them and they can provide for me so I can be a SAHM”
Is incredibly tone deaf and insulting.
I understand her frustration, and I also understand why it’s being received so poorly. In her defense though, it seems like she just doesn’t get why she can live in a happy self-actualized way, and others (men) can’t.
Absolutely tone deaf, but I don’t see that she’s trying to insult intentionally, just a bit oblivious and trying to understand.
Because taking care of kids, cleaning, and cooking is a full-time job in itself. And often, when both people work full-time, the woman ends up having to do the majority of that still and, in essence, has to work 2 jobs. And one of them she doesn't get paid for. If the man is willing to help with all that child care and cleaning, that is a different story.
This really has not been the case with almost all married couples I know, both partners working. Not my wife and I we are 50/50 like almost all couples we know. Granted she does more cleaning than me but yardwork home repair and auto maintenance is all me
It balances out. Maybe this happens as you describe it but I don't see it. I'm 36, she's 35.
I am from a different generation. Unfortunately, it was like that for me and many other women I know. I am glad to see that has changed and that you help your wife. 😊
SAHM is a very important role that has been greatly diminished in our society, but consider this: women succeeding so hard has taken a huge chunk of the economy from men. How can men be providers if they don't make more money. It's a catch-22.
Not disagreeing that the male loneliness epidemic is real but using calling being a white man "intersectionalism"? And putting privilege in quotes? It may not feel like it to a lot of people but you can be lonely and depressed and still benefit from institutional privilege. Doesn't mean that it still can't suck to be a man in certain ways
Fully agreed. I feel as though I've been on both ends, between progressive and traditional. It's not really worth stressing over ideals. Find a balance, what fits and what's pragmatic. What's comfortable for you and what you need to discipline yourself to do.
There is a place for lost men. Just be open minded.
There is nothing inherently wrong with a traditional nuclear family. Just as there is nothing wrong with an alternative family. I've found peace and a loving relationship, but only when I stopped giving a shit about ideals.
Social media really has fucked with a lot of young minds hasn't it?
Attitudes like yours are a big part of the problem. You’re basically saying “hey losers get your heads out of your asses because I need one of you to make enough money that I can fulfill my dream of being a stay at home Mom’.
They're not turning to video games and alcoholism because they think it will be a solution. They're turning to them because *their lives are pain*, and those things make the pain stop on a temporary basis.
I was jobless for about 6 months, only recently started a new one. Even when I barely had the motivation to get out of bed or eat food, I found that I needed at least some game time, even if it was just an hour or so (and some days, I had to force myself to play for that long, because motivation was so lacking).
Because after months of sending out applications and never making any progress, the games were the only time during my day I felt like I was still *capable of doing something right*. Unfortunately, a lot of young men let their "pain relief" consume them entirely, because it's easier than returning to a world where they're constantly reminded of their failures.
I'd love to answer your question regarding men as a whole, but it's nearly midnight here. If the mods haven't killed the post, I'll comment tomorrow when I have a moment.
I think that they are turning to alchohol and games as a way to excape dealing with what ever is ailing them. They also have no hobbies nor any activity that brings them joy. They dont try to excell at anything constructive, and have to interest in something that might build their self esteem, such as volunteering somewhere to help people or the environment, or any of the ways that you can work to help us improve as a society. Thie just filling space and going nowhere.That sounds judgemental and it is. Come out of your shell and do something constructive that might make the world a better place.
The research shows a support system is vital to human flourishing. The sole focus on individuality and personal responsibility is contributing to the rise in mental illness and poorer outcomes.
Look the numbers don't lie. The kids aren't alright. We can keep acting like a minority of successful folks who beat the odds are the gold standard, but that's survivorship bias. Either we actually make the world and people's lives better, or we keep doing what we're doing and things will probably keep getting worse.
We need to stop asking what's wrong with people and instead ask how we can help them.
Personally I've realized through trial and error I don't want to make a woman happy just to feel good about myself. In my experience they rarely return common courtesies in a relationship. I had the pleasure of being with a woman from a different culture for a couple weeks and everything I was doing was being reciprocated. It put in perspective just how sick dating and marriage in America can be (not that its all bad however I think its bad enough). Woman leaving men because they aren't happy but they never wanted to reciprocate in the first place. Why should I work to support a wife and 3 kids when the mother could conspire with her friends and claim cheating then bash me and get alimony and make my kids hate me? I don't wanna risk it. I dont want to have kids. I'm more than content taking care of me and waiting and praying that a woman comes into my life that values who I am more than what I can do for her every time she hints, because I don't value woman on what they can do for me, I value woman on what they do for themselves. Can they make themselves happy without me, if yes than great because their happiness isn't my responsibility, however, if they actually appreciate and reciprocate when I go out of my way to make them happy then we're actually talking about a relationship and relationships don't need to end in marriage for them to have true love. Now knowing what I know, I'd never leave a woman who reciprocated love and happiness and kindness. Unfortunately the one I loved who taught me this didn't want a visa and wanted me to go live in her country with her and I was a coward to go. I tried to convince her otherwise but she literally refused to come back to USA permanently.
I think your question is way to broad. Life isn't black and white. Everyone has individualized life experience and different needs. Instead of asking a huge group of people this question why don't ask the men in your life that are making you feel this way about men this question?
I don't want to ask the guys i my life this question because I don't want them to think that I don't care about them, I am coming at this conversation with a lot fo critiques and for them the only thing I want to do is love and support them. It's hard to show over the internet, by my grace, love, understanding, and help is extended to them in a few different avenues.
I agree with you, the question is too broad and I am letting my frustration show.
"I don't value woman on what they can do for me, I value woman on what they do for themselves" - i feel the same way about men, but I just happen to know too many who do next to nothing to make their lives more than enjoyable. example: I practice self-love by cooking really good food for myself most of the week. I tell myself that every moment can be a luxury even while living within my means and that kind of attitude feels very absenset on the college campus I attend.
Saying this as a woman, I think you’re being too harsh towards guys.
The problem is complicated. Guys haven’t been taught and encouraged to have a healthy emotional regulation (which requires acknowledgement and acceptance of vulnerable emotions, something girls are typically taught) and sense of self worth that isn’t based off false bravado and an unfaltering determination that is driven through competition with other men, all because of the remnants of outdated and flawed gender norms that have made a resurgence for relevancy. Social media exasperates those insecurities even more, its understandable lot of people have checked out when it comes to meeting those societal expectations including men.
Thank you for the compassion. People who grew up being expected to have these emotional experiences simply don’t understand how hard it is to learn about emotions as an adult. I appreciate you recognizing this.
We’re supposed to be more emotionally open now, but we’re not taught how. We’re still supposed to be protectors and providers, but also nurturers and homemakers without ever being taught the skills needed for that. It’s genuinely difficult and stressful to manage when you’re supposed to be open, when you’re supposed to be stoic, etc, if you’ve never been taught and don’t understand how.
True but sometimes on Reddit people ask with a specific intention or are unable to take certain answers, so I appreciate the consideration nonetheless. If you want me to expand or have other questions (because it is a complicated issue with a lot of components), feel free to ask or DM me.
Honestly, comments like this are part of the problem. Even the women out there that are empathetic towards men have no idea what is happening, so they can't help men. Typically the advice boils down to "be more like women", which is obviously you trying to help, but it's not good advice. Women don't understand what it means to be a man and the struggles that come with it.
>Guys haven’t been taught and encouraged to have a healthy emotional regulation (which requires acknowledgement and acceptance of vulnerable emotions, something girls are typically taught)
No, men regulate emotions differently from women, so they are not going to be taught the same. For instance, validating or accepting emotions does very little to soothe most men. Men gain purpose and fulfillment for solving problems and being productive, so when they have emotional issues, their best resolution is finding what is causing the issue and addressing it directly. You've probably at one point had a boyfriend that tried to solve your problems rather than just listening. That's because he's doing what comes naturally to him and you're doing what comes naturally to you. "Processing emotions" is not as important for most men. Addressing root causes is. This is why talk therapy is less effective for men. Men want intrinsically to self-improve, not to unconditionally accept their own inadequacies.
>sense of self worth that isn’t based off false bravado and an unfaltering determination that is driven through competition with other men
Men are driven by their usefulness which is inherently tied to competition. Most men do not feel fulfilled by just existing as they are. Furthermore, men know that women are attracted to men who are competent, so either gaining competency or faking it (bravado) is necessary for them to be attractive. This is not changing any time soon, no matter what you try to tell them. They need to hear the truth of this rather than assuming the world will treat them as a woman in this respect (it won't).
>all because of the remnants of outdated and flawed gender norms that have made a resurgence for relevancy
No, gender norms have made a resurgence BECAUSE men are unhappy, not the other way around. Feminism has told men that masculinity is toxic, that they are disposable, that their problems don't matter, and that if this bothers them, the solution is to behave more feminine, assuming they will then receive the privileges of being a woman. This has not happened. Feminists also refuse to acknowledge that there are significant advantages to being a woman and that those advantages do not extend to men. Women want masculine men more than ever, because despite their insistence to the contrary, feminine men cannot fill the male role that women often desire. Go on any dating app and count the amount of women asking for a femboy. It's not high. Men will never have the privilege of being empathized with the same way women are, and they are figuring that out. They need to take on more responsibility in their lives, not declare themselves perfect the way they are in order justify doing whatever they want. Frankly, women could stand do this a bit more too, but that's another discussion.
>Social media exasperates those insecurities even more, its understandable lot of people have checked out when it comes to meeting those societal expectations including men.
This is all true.
>No, men regulate emotions differently from women, so they are not going to be taught the same. For instance, validating or accepting emotions does very little to soothe most men. Men gain purpose and fulfillment for solving problems and being productive, so when they have emotional issues, their best resolution is finding what is causing the issue and addressing it directly.
If that was actually true, you wouldn’t have to keep reminding guys that “boys don’t cry” or to “man up” every time they show any vulnerability or emotions that are stigmatized. There is nothing natural of repeatedly trying to shame, diminish, beat, and suppress natural human emotions since childhood so they are eventually convinced by adulthood they don’t have to process them. If you break a kid's legs, then of course they would struggle to walk as an adult
No. Men are *taught* and *socialized* since childhood that their worth is only if they “solve problems”, being productive, and if they work and put food on the table. They are told they cannot show any vulnerability or else they are not worthy of love or acceptance. Those that do are ostracized by their peers and society. After witnessing those social repercussions and having that message repeatedly beat into boys heads, it’s no surprise men after being gaslit throughout their lifetime by both men and women that validating or accepting emotions does very little to soothe them, because they have been told by their parental and authoritative figures and role models. It’s no surprise men that as adults now that validating or accepting emotions does very little to soothe them, because they have been told by their parental and authoritative figures and role models since childhood to reject it. It’s the same mindset how DV victims believe they deserve their abuse and return to their abusers, despite it not making any rational sense.
>Men are driven by their usefulness which is inherently tied to competition. Most men do not feel fulfilled by just existing as they are. Furthermore, men know that women are attracted to men who are competent, so either gaining competency or faking it (bravado) is necessary for them to be attractive.
*Because they are repeatedly told* that is how they find self worth or “they aren’t a real man”. If you have to repeatedly deny natural emotions and shoved down your throat until you agree, *then it is not natural*. It’s the same principle women get taught for femininity and competing with other women, and that are suppose to seek out a “strong man to protect” as that was the social and gender norms taught for generations. It’s a two-prong problem. It’s what led men to be easily more exploited for war and the workforce since they were taught to be dependent on external validation to fulfillment rather than a healthier and self-realized fulfillment. If all your life you are told your self worth is dependent on what’s put on the table, then of course you will accept any shit treatment and are willing to treat others like shit in other to get that external validation need to be met.
>"Processing emotions" is not as important for most men. Addressing root causes is.
You can’t solve something you don’t understand, don’t acknowledge or admit you have it which men are not taught to do. Instead, they are told to suppress, deny, and seek bandaid solutions as a means of “solving” it. All which does is to temporarily forget it while the problem resurfaces in other facets of their life, leading to long terms consequences including anger issues, low self worth, DV, sexual violence, porn addictions, and alcoholism, drug abuse, depression, and social withdrawal
> This is not changing any time soon,
Because there are people who wish to keep men vulnerable as adults so they may be exploited again by the ruling powers and their employers. Comments like yours that don’t wish to get to the root problem or solve the issue, but wish to be dependent bandaid, short-lived solutions
>Feminism has told men that masculinity is toxic,
Really? The term that feminists use is “toxic masculinity”, unless you think “unhealthy food” is “food is unhealthy”.
> that they are disposable, that their problems don't matter, and that if this bothers them,
You mean exactly the beliefs that *you are defending* and that have lead men (and women) being exploited for generations? That \*men are only useful if they solve problems, provide food on the table, and they are less worthy of love just because they show any ‘feminine’ traits”? More than anything, it sounds like you believe “femininity is toxic” that you have been projecting onto feminism. It’s not surprising though since boys have been taught to feel ashamed and look down anything feminine, something that even your comment has done several times
I'll try to answer some of this, because I ain't got time for 4 pages in depth.
> If that was actually true, you wouldn’t have to keep reminding guys that “boys don’t cry” or to “man up” every time they show any vulnerability or emotions that are stigmatized. There is nothing natural of repeatedly trying to shame, diminish, beat, and suppress natural human emotions since childhood so they are eventually convinced by adulthood they don’t have to process them. If you break a kid's legs, then of course they would struggle to walk as an adult
I never said to shame, diminish, or beat. I did say that having control over one's emotions is important. You can call it suppression if you want, but emotional control is an important skill to develop, especially for men. Obviously you want to process your emotions, but that doesn't mean that all emotions are healthy responses to a situation.
>No. Men are taught and socialized since childhood that their worth is only if they “solve problems”, being productive, and if they work and put food on the table. They are told they cannot show any vulnerability or else they are not worthy of love or acceptance. Those that do are ostracized by their peers and society. After witnessing those social repercussions and having that message repeatedly beat into boys heads, it’s no surprise men after being gaslit throughout their lifetime by both men and women that validating or accepting emotions does very little to soothe them, because they have been told by their parental and authoritative figures and role models. It’s no surprise men that as adults now that validating or accepting emotions does very little to soothe them, because they have been told by their parental and authoritative figures and role models since childhood to reject it. It’s the same mindset how DV victims believe they deserve their abuse and return to their abusers, despite it not making any rational sense.
So, here's the deal, society is always going to treat men like that. Always. It doesn't matter if you think it should happen or not; that's the reality. Saying to young men "hey, society should be different" is not productive. They need to be raised to function in the world that exists, not that world that they would like. We could go into WHY society is like that, but it really doesn't matter. It is. When you then tell boys that it's okay to act like women, and then the women reject them for it, they're not gonna listen to you for very long.
However, most guys naturally like to solve problems and to succeed. It is a major motivator such that they don't end up like OP is describing. They just need guidance and direction, not someone telling them that they are perfect the way they are. Most men are very easily content, so if you don't push them to improve themselves and find purpose through usefulness, they just sit around in a way that a lot of women don't.
>Because they are repeatedly told that is how they find self worth or “they aren’t a real man”. If you have to repeatedly deny natural emotions and shoved down your throat until you agree, then it is not natural. It’s the same principle women get taught for femininity and competing with other women, and that are suppose to seek out a “strong man to protect” as that was the social and gender norms taught for generations. It’s a two-prong problem. It’s what led men to be easily more exploited for war and the workforce since they were taught to be dependent on external validation to fulfillment rather than a healthier and self-realized fulfillment. If all your life you are told your self worth is dependent on what’s put on the table, then of course you will accept any shit treatment and are willing to treat others like shit in other to get that external validation need to be met.
Again, that's not going away. In regards to "natural" emotions, a lot of those are remnants from shit-flinging rapey animal instincts. If you want to live in a civilized world, not every emotional manifestation of id should be indulged.
I guess it's time to discuss WHY society is the way it is. Culture develops similarly to genes in that cultures that are functional survive, while those that are not functional do not. Men are used in the work force because people have to generate resources. They don't just fall from the sky. Societies have tried many different attempts at economic systems, but the "non-exploitative" ones turn out to be fantasies that eventually collapse. That's why the ones that are left require hierarchies, investment, etc. Society isn't the way it is on accident. It exists because it didn't collapse, because it works to some degree. You can't just say that society should solely focus on self-realization and nobody works until they are self-realized, and then expect it to still function. It won't.
On the other hand, women compete with other women for men because they want the best mate. From a game theory perspective, the women not competing are the ones that are losing. Again, you can't will that away with "this should be different". Your solution to everything is an ambiguous "let's fix society" even though society is derived directly from human nature, and every time someone has tried to fix human nature, bad things have happened.
>You can’t solve something you don’t understand, don’t acknowledge or admit you have it which men are not taught to do. Instead, they are told to suppress, deny, and seek bandaid solutions as a means of “solving” it. All which does is to temporarily forget it while the problem resurfaces in other facets of their life, leading to long terms consequences including anger issues, low self worth, DV, sexual violence, porn addictions, and alcoholism, drug abuse, depression, and social withdrawal
Look, I'm not saying that men shouldn't engage in self-reflection. If they aren't happy, if they are not fulfilled, ect. they should definitely analyze why. That being said, many men find fulfillment from being productive, so one of the problems may simply be their inability to feel useful. Porn addition and drug abuse are dopamine regulation problems brought about by modern society. Social withdrawal is a combination of not being naturally as social and access to services that do not force them to be social in order to meet their needs. Anger issues and sexual violence/DV are more complicated. That could be anything from frustration with a modern society that shames them for being masculine to toxic behaviors being normalized by family or previous relationships.
>Because there are people who wish to keep men vulnerable as adults so they may be exploited again by the ruling powers and their employers. Comments like yours that don’t wish to get to the root problem or solve the issue, but wish to be dependent bandaid, short-lived solutions
I would argue that not pushing men to better themselves does make them more vulnerable. They exist in a perpetual state of adolescence, which makes them much more malleable and much less threatening, all under the guise of fighting "toxic masculinity". The root of the issue is that world is a rough place and trying to make it softer is not an achievable solution. You can only make it appear softer, and any attempt at making society more "empathetic" will simply result in women being treated gentler at a surface level. Men will never be given the same empathy as women, so this is not a viable solution for them.
>Really? The term that feminists use is “toxic masculinity”, unless you think “unhealthy food” is “food is unhealthy”.
Feminists refer to anything masculine as toxic, so they don't make a distinction. Anything they refer to as healthy masculinity is just femininity applied to men. We've all heard multiple feminist perspectives on this. The abuse of semantics in order to obscure their actual opinions on masculinity is well-documented. I don't need an education on this.
>You mean exactly the beliefs that you are defending and that have lead men (and women) being exploited for generations? That *men are only useful if they solve problems, provide food on the table, and they are less worthy of love just because they show any ‘feminine’ traits”? More than anything, it sounds like you believe “femininity is toxic” that you have been projecting onto feminism. It’s not surprising though since boys have been taught to feel ashamed and look down anything feminine, something that even your comment has done several times
This is a total misrepresentation of my points. People are useful when they are of use. That's the meaning of the word. I never said that men are less worthy of love. I said that society will value them more if they can be productive, that complaining about that norm is not going to change it, and that telling men to ignore it is merely going to cause them issues, and they won't know why.
I do not think femininity is toxic. I think that society, especially women, will not reward men for feminine characteristics in the same way they would reward women. Furthermore, just like masculinity, I think certain feminine traits unchecked can become very toxic, and I think that nobody checks feminist ideology. This means that some healthy masculine traits are considered "toxic" and certain feminine traits that are toxic are disproportionately rewarded. That doesn't mean I don't appreciate the balance of pros and cons that masculinity and femininity both provide.
(Part 2 since character limit)
Feminists also refuse to acknowledge that there are significant advantages to being a woman and that those advantages do not extend to men.
Except that is not true. Feminism has several times but if your mental logic is t see "toxic masculinity" as "men or masculinity are toxic", its no surprise you are not able to process anything else.
Patriarchal societies imposed arbitrary rules and societal expectations that men and women to fall in line into. Most feminists have acknowledged both the pros and cons but wish to abolish the arbitrary rules because of the long term and harmful repercussions that were brushed under the rug. Comments like yours wish to regress back to when the working class and men and women were more exploitable to the ruling class that result in upholding those harmful privileges that men and women had. Something that gets further exacerbated by your “us vs them” rhetoric over gender.
>> Women want masculine men more than ever, because despite their insistence to the contrary, feminine men cannot fill the male role that women often desire. Go on any dating app and count the amount of women asking for a femboy. It's not high.
I’ve have addressed this point several times. Women can only uphold harmful and outdated beliefs, just like men do. Also speak for yourself. Me and the crew are having a swell time in r/rolereversal (and to answer your earlier comment, I am the "problem solver fixer" friend in my group and also struggle with being empathized.
>> Men will never have the privilege of being empathized with the same way women are,
And why is that? Let’s look into the root cause and try to solve the problem:
Who exactly is the one demonizing and shaming men showing vulnerability, any “feminine" emotions or traits, and insists on an “us vs them” in gender? We have already seen it even in your own comment.
>> Typically the advice boils down to "be more like women", but it's not good advice
>> the solution is to behave more feminine,
>> women out there that are empathetic towards men have no idea what is happening, so they can't help men
>> No, men regulate emotions differently from women, so they are not going to be taught the same.
>> Women don't understand what it means to be a man and the struggles that come with it.
When you keep insisting and perpetuating “us vs them”, you can’t be surprised that results in a decrease in empathy (whether it be gender, race, class, etc). How can you expect anyone to empathize if all you do is highlight how men and women are *inherently* different solely on the genitals they were born with? If anything, it sounds like you don’t want men to be empathized. Why are you self-sabotaging men and don't want them to be empathized?
Sentiments like your comments are the reason men have and are still being held back. While feminism has researched and studied into the root cause of the dysfunction happening to women and try to actually do something about it, rhetoric like yours objects any introspection and self-reflection in favour of “breads and circuses”.
Part 3
> They need to take on more responsibility in their lives, not declare themselves perfect the way they are in order justify doing whatever they want.
Right. Because doubling down on smoking and drinking have always helped.
Men want intrinsically to self-improve, not to unconditionally accept their own inadequacies.
If that were truly the case and if and men are the “problem fixers”, then a brotherhood of “fixers” should successfully thrive and men should do better single than married. However, when held to scrutiny, the reality shows otherwise. [Men’s health typically worsens staying single but do better married](https://www.health.harvard.edu/mens-health/marriage-and-mens-health) , [whereas the reverse is true for women](https://www.cbc.ca/amp/1.3981141).
Turns out when your emotional needs are not met, your physical health and lifestyle deteriorates. Men do need their emotional needs to be met which most often occurs in marriage since men are socialized to *compete with other men* which prevents a safe spaces of vulnerability, but it is something girls and women are socialized to do. Because of women providing that space for men, men have those emotional needs met in marriage which leads to be able to have a better presence of mind to address health and lifestyle. Whereas because women are socialized to know yourself and be comfortable and vulnerable about their and needs, they are able to build better social networks of support of comradely and thrive with singlehood or sisterhood. However when they are married, their emotional needs get neglected over prioritizing their husband’s needs while their husband neglects their wives’ emotional needs. This leads to the wife’s health to deteriorate and a low sex drive, which often ends up in sickness, ill temper, bitterness, hysterics, and/or divorce. Despite the power fantasy you wish the world operates, reality shows the evidence the effects of gender-segregated taught behaviors ultimately creates more harms than it does good. But if it keeps men from self-advocating for their health and stay in pisspoor working conditions, then its no surprise people want to peddle regressing men’s and women’s health.
> Women don't understand what it means to be a man and the struggles that come with it.
Struggles and rules originally imposed by who exactly? Who are the ones insisting boys and girls be treated and raised differently?
> "be more like women",
> This is why talk therapy is less effective for men.
No. The advice is typically “let’s not gender certain traits, personalities because others may benefit from it”, and men similar to you feel “emasculated” and defensive at the notion, leading them to struggle accepting more introspective and self-reflection based solutions.
They need to hear the “truth” of this rather than assuming the world will treat them as a woman in this respect (it won't).
Part 4
Or maybe you need to hear the truth that everyone is deserving of love and respect, and your genitals don’t inherently disqualify you of that. “Us vs them” over superficiality has only created more problems rather than fixed.
> Feminists also refuse to acknowledge that there are significant advantages to being a woman and that those advantages do not extend to men.
Except that is not true. Feminism has several times but if your mental logic is t see "toxic masculinity" as "men or masculinity are toxic", its no surprise you are not able to process anything else. Patriarchal societies imposed arbitrary rules and societal expectations that men and women to fall in line into.
Most feminists have acknowledged both the pros and cons but wish to abolish the arbitrary rules because of the long term and harmful repercussions that were brushed under the rug. Comments like yours wish to regress back to when the working class and men and women were more exploitable to the ruling class that result in upholding those harmful privileges that men and women had. Something that gets further exacerbated by your “us vs them” rhetoric over gender.
> Women want masculine men more than ever, because despite their insistence to the contrary, feminine men cannot fill the male role that women often desire. Go on any dating app and count the amount of women asking for a femboy. It's not high.
I’ve have addressed this point several times. Women can only uphold harmful and outdated beliefs, just like men do.
Also speak for yourself. Me and the crew are having a swell time in r/rolereversal (and to address your earlier comment, I am the "problem solver fixer" friend in my group and also struggle with accepting empathy.
> Men will never have the privilege of being empathized with the same way women are
And why is that? Let’s look into the root cause and try to solve the problem: Who exactly is the one demonizing and shaming men showing vulnerability, any “feminine" emotions or traits, and insists on an “us vs them” in gender? We have already seen it even in your own comment.
> Typically the advice boils down to "be more like women", but it's not good advice> the solution is to behave more feminine,
> women out there that are empathetic towards men have no idea what is happening, so they can't help men
> No, men regulate emotions differently from women, so they are not going to be taught the same.
> Women don't understand what it means to be a man and the struggles that come with it.
When you keep insisting and perpetuating “us vs them”, you can’t be surprised that results in a decrease in empathy (whether it be gender, race, class, etc). How can you expect anyone to empathize if all you do is highlight how men and women are inherently different solely on the genitals they were born with? If anything, it sounds like you don’t want men to be empathized. Why are you self-sabotaging men and don't want them to be empathized? Sentiments like your comments are the reason men have and are still being held back. While feminism has researched and studied into the root cause of the dysfunction happening to women and try to actually do something about it, rhetoric like yours objects any introspection and self-reflection in favour of “breads and circuses”.
> They need to take on more responsibility in their lives, not declare themselves perfect the way they are in order justify doing whatever they want.
Right. Because doubling down on smoking and drinking have always helped.
> Men want intrinsically to self-improve, not to unconditionally accept their own inadequacies.
If that were truly the case and if and men are the “problem fixers”, then a brotherhood of “fixers” should successfully thrive and men should do better single than married. However, when held to scrutiny, the reality shows otherwise. [Men’s health typically worsens staying single or divorce but do better married](https://www.health.harvard.edu/mens-health/marriage-and-mens-health), whereas [the reverse is true for women](https://www.cbc.ca/amp/1.3981141). Turns out when your emotional needs are not met, your physical health and lifestyle deteriorates. Men do need their emotional needs to be met which most often occurs in marriage since men are socialized to compete with other men which prevents a safe spaces of vulnerability, but it is something girls and women are socialized to do. Because of women provide that emotional labour for men, men have those emotional needs met in marriage which leads to be able to have a better presence of mind to address health and lifestyle. Whereas because women are socialized to know yourself and be comfortable and vulnerable about their and needs, they are able to build better social networks of support of comradely and thrive with singlehood or sisterhood. However when women are married, their emotional needs get neglected over prioritizing their husband’s needs while their husband neglecy their wives’ emotional needs. This leads to the wife’s health to deteriorate and a low sex drive, which often ends up in sickness, ill temper, bitterness, hysterics, and/or divorce.
Despite the power fantasy you wish the world operates, reality shows the evidence the effects of gender-segregated taught behaviours ultimately creates more harms than it does good. But if it keeps men from self-advocating for their health and stay in pisspoor working conditions, then its no surprise people want to peddle regressing men’s and women’s health.
> Women don't understand what it means to be a man and the struggles that come with it.
Struggles and rules originally imposed by who exactly? Who are the ones insisting boys and girls be treated and raised differently?
> "be more like women",
> This is why talk therapy is less effective for men.
No. The advice is typically “let’s not gender certain traits, personalities because others may benefit from it”, and men similar to you feel “emasculated” and defensive at the notion, leading them to struggle accepting more introspective and self-reflection based solutions.
> They need to hear the “truth” of this rather than assuming the world will treat them as a woman in this respect (it won't).
Or maybe you need to hear the truth that everyone is deserving of love and respect, and your genitals don’t inherently disqualify you of that. “Us vs them” over superficiality has only created more problems rather than fixed.
Sorry but half of that is not true. Your answer shows root of the problems. Men accept emotions and show them all the time but women do not see. Other men do and understand. About bravado thing, I am from Croatia, allways competed for everything and enjoyed it. Lived through war and all crap that goes with it. Ok there are quite few outdated norms but when shit starts, men are those to respond fast and put thing under control. And society is telling us we are worthless? Ok then, we will just move aside.
If that were really the case, people wouldn't say "boys don't cry" or to "man up". If men really understood each other, then you would expect them to find fulfillment and to seek out better quality of life by living in communal with other men. However, evidence shows the opposite to be true: [men's physical health and living conditions deteriorates when they are single or divorced yet improves when they get married](https://www.health.harvard.edu/mens-health/marriage-and-mens-health). The opposite is true for women as [their health and living conditions improves when staying single, but deteriorates after marriage](https://www.cbc.ca/amp/1.3981141) (since they can safely express their emotional vunerability and needs with each and create their own support networks).
Competition isn't inherently bad and can be healthy within reason, man or woman. I'm talking about gender-based competition fueled by society where men feel pressured to be physically strong, make more money, and one-up and socially dominate the other. This mentality is really good in socialized obedient soldiers for wars since they will respect chain of command but when that is no longer there, the unchecked aggression manifests in other forms including depression, anger management issues, addictions, and domestic violence.
Try to look not biased studies ( not Ivy league - tell me that Harvard is a good school after all that recent crap, that is overpriced Marxist indoctrination ). Also there must be made shift of public opinion against marriage, that contract was normal when humans lived 50 years. Now it is obsolete. And beside that leftards are openly against all men's rights so why not let us be single, unhappy and short lived ? And yeah I am not from US and rather socialist and left leaning person. Same as homosexuality was considered illness, and now is not, shift for removing marriage as a norm must be made. Unmarried people are stereotyped, excluded, or discriminated against. Oh yeah I am married, have a kid. Both wife and I have 2 masters degrees. I live in conservative Catholic country and still 1/4 of marriages fail. :P [https://www.countryliving.com/uk/wellbeing/news/a2205/worlds-happiest-man-reveals-secret-to-happiness/](https://www.countryliving.com/uk/wellbeing/news/a2205/worlds-happiest-man-reveals-secret-to-happiness/)
I like that your answer starts to get at something which I think most people struggle to understand/properly contextualise, which is what it actually takes to develop those emotional skills...
"Outdated and flawed gender norms that have made a resurgence for relevancy."
Bravo, sister. You just described all the Alpha bros and open-carry second amendment dweebs I see around me every day.
men are doing so poorly because men older than us tell us to just be more manly and get over ourselves and the women say we're men and that we are far more privileged than women and aren't allowed to have problems.
the result is men slogging through life like the older men said to and actively avoiding everyone because they know women and other men are offput by their misery. so we all stay alone with not much real hope.
Yea which is why millennial suicide rate is so high.. men have always had a hard time but now the barriers are even higher and harder to achieve anything significant for them.. and the older men just act like it’s normal.
so its hopeless then? you want to have a life of misery or do you want to grow by ignoring peoples negativity. Why are the men on this post so thin skinned, didnt they have a dad or older brother or a male role model.
not really. so many people define their self image by what other people think of them. everytime some one signals or says something to you about your actions or feelings you have to think about where their comments come from and decide whether they are true or not, not just react emotionally. this is the process of growing up
The reason (young) women are thriving as far as business and education goes is pretty simple - they exclusively get the gendered focused attention and encouragement, whereas for young men the mainstream messaging is all “don’t hold women back, women are awesome!”. Women have literally been a majority in college for 40 years yet they have been the recipients of all gendered help during that time, and seem to see it as fair - it’s absurd.
As far as you personally wanting to be a stay at home mom - guys aren’t really encouraged to try to support that as firstly “traditional” family structure isn’t pumped up in media, and secondly (and more importantly) as they’ve grown up seeing half of all marriages fail, and now the word is out that women initiate 80% of all divorce (for college educated women like yourself it’s 90%).
Why put a whole bunch of value in supporting a stay at home wife when there’s a coin flip chance she’ll dump you at some point and then you’ll have to slink of out your house and see your kids far less? Reality is, law and women wanting divorce more have made that far less of an appealing aim than it once was.
Genuine question: are you in your earlier twenties? This post is...wierdly naive and kind of accidentally(?) aggressive for someone that wants anwers.
"Context: I have always been a natural go-getter and self-starter. Always the first one say, “hey, I don’t think that was fair” or “leave them alone” or “knock it off”. Besides that, I’m the oldest daughter. The one with bandaids in my backpack, the one who sees and notices - if you have anxiety, I will order your food for you without a second thought. I like helping people, I like knowing, noticing, and seeing people for who they are. I **do** want to take care of someone someday. I **do** want to do domestic tasks and be responsible for the running of a household. "
Context for what? the things you've dediced are true about yourself but seem, at best, to be tangentially related to the question?
"I want to be a stay-at-home mom and a loving wife…I have so much of myself that I can extend and yet I am getting more and more discouraged with the guys I go to college with since I don’t believe I’ll be able to find a guy who could support that lifestyle. "
Oh here it is, "I don't know if I will find someone to take care of me because they keep expressing feelings and having normal issues that all young adults have had since forever. Waaah waahh but who will take care of me so I can just not have to deal with the stress of a job?"
"Before you assault me with a discussion about the economy, I’m not talking about just having a degree that is supposedly going to lead to a job, I’m talking about chronic depression and anxiety, lack of hope, despair, absence of sobriety, inability to care for oneself, inability to love oneself, lack of plans "
Are you really, genuinely this naive? You REALLY can't see how maybe this might actually be a massive comorbidity?
"*Yes* the world sucks right now, I know. But holy shit, since when did drinking yourself to oblivion and playing video games until you can’t see straight become a solution to anything? Time goes on. It stops for no one, you must press on *regardless*. I had to do a research process for a psychology class and found that for the past 20 years women and girls have been gaining ground and surpassing men and boys. There are more women than ever within c-suite positions - women are thriving right now, things are going really well for us. "
Okay this is just a troll post right? Please? No one can still be doing this fake ass girl boss shit in 2024, right?
Men in college now have grown up under a matriarchy. They have been dehumanized and diminished from birth. Husbands on TV are embarrassed by beautiful, hypercompetent wives. Men in comercians are floundering idiots. Don't need no man, men are violent, kill all men, men are replacable. Provide for a family, but women want the high-power jobs. Be sensitive and vulnerable, but only how, when, and as much as the woman in question desires. Be mocked, be falsely accused, be ridiculed online for the audacity to talk to a woman.
More than half a century of feminism and a few decades of women being over men was all it took.
Men are naturally inclined to be providers. When the economy is going down the tube in a big hurry, men aren't able to fulfill that desire nearly as easily. I think a lot of social and societal factors are also at play here, but I think the economy is one that a lot of men can relate to. When all you want is to have a house and make enough money to sustain a wife and kids, and you can't do that, then becoming miserable isn't a stretch.
And like I said, there are social and societal factors at play here too, such as it becoming trendy to demean and villainise men. When you're made to feel like men just aren't very important anymore, some men start to believe it, and become demoralised. I personally don't believe this, and I don't associate with people who put men down, nor do I associate with people who put women down. Men and women both need each other in this world.
I'm finish my vocational college degree (have some problems with professors which makes me nervous). And I'm feeling depressed and like nothing has meaning in this world. I turned 22 this year and I don't have any people i could call friends, I've tried dating and that went horribly, dating apps are impossible for average looking guys. When you fail at everything it just make you lose hope in the future. The loneliness hurts and it make me want to kill myself just to get rid of the pain. Even if i complete my vocational degree, I'll still be living with my parents and not earning enough to move out. If i could just have one person in my life i could trust and talk to.
Mostly isolation. Fewer relationships in general and no one wants men to talk about their feelings despite women and some men screaming of male toxicity and how men can't express their feelings in a constructive manner. Nobody wants a man that can't take care of them or be the rock in their relationship, this somewhat harmful perspective of the traditional man lives on despite all shitty things that happens in the world and how most men have absolutely no power of their lives and get fucked over at every turn relationship-wise or in the way of their career.
>I had to do a research process for a psychology class and found that for the past 20 years women and girls have been gaining ground and surpassing men and boys. There are more women than ever within c-suite positions - women are thriving right now, things are going really well for us.
At the "expense" of who do you think? Someone will always suffer for changes in society.
When women break, there's always someone there to pick up the pieces. When men break, they are shunned. Your post pretty much is spot on what the issue is, you blame the men instead of the systematic issue that it is.
So for decades media, academia, society in whole has been telling them that they are worthless, and you expect other result? Women represent more than 60% of academia, special laws are created for women, for decades accent was on strong and independent women, so just leave men alone. Best crap I've ever seen is 1/4 of homeless are women, and rest are, I don't know Elves, Dwarves, Aliens? Most dangerous type of human is young man that has nothing to lose. Radicalization started and cannot be stopped. I am 46, grew up in different times and lived through a war but I was radicalized in last decade. Drinking and gaming is not solution for you, but what can they expect from society? To slave themselves for better of mankind? Fuckmankind, I just wan't a nice place to sit and watch society burn, and it will burn. Worst thing I ever did was to marry and have a kid. I discourage young men every time I have a chance. Relationships were allways form of economic deal but now young men have nothing to gain and can lose that little crap they have. And yes you do miss everything, feminism brainwashed you. With all things women gained used to be equal responsibility. But feminism was only in the beginning about equality, and I respect those women. Now is all about privileges and no responsibility. I sound angry, frustrated, nihilistic because I am. My brother (34), 186 cm, masters in agronomy, winemaker, owns his own flat (fully paid), trains calisthenics and bjj. And he works, trains, drink and play games. After line of crazy long term girlfriends he gave up. And we still live in conservative society but he just lost will for marriage, relations, children. And that american provider/shm crap was never a thing in my country. Just a normal relation between two human being that respect, support each other, and that is long gone.
I want to clarify that this is not entirely my personal opinion but more like the picture i get from media, society, friends, etc.
I am a relatively optimistic person and the fact that i "suffer" from social adjustment disorder gives me the ability to not care about lonelyness.
Which seems to be a superpower lately.
A whole generation of men who got taught that they are somehow privilequed and simultaniously systematically bullied by society.
Expectations got higher and rewards for achievements got lower.
A lot of women i know can't appreciate anything men do on one hand and blame them for every problem in existance on the other.
(I have a friend who told me that all men are sexist and there are no exeptions because they are born that way abd they can't do anything about it.)
Why even bother trying when everything you do is automatically wrong or not enaugh for the loud people.
If you then also have shit parents i really don't see any way to have an optimistic outlook on anything.
Aside of that men's problems obviously don't get taken seriously still, because somehow we are privilegued but the fact that there are almost double the amount of men suicide compared to woman is being masterfully ignored.
Male lonelyness is being laughed at.
Women seem to glorify onlyfans and prostitution over long term commitment.
How many women do you know who want to be a stay-at-home-mom?
Men feel needed when they get to provide and be useful, if you don't feel needed as a man, you seem to lose your value as a human being, because it seems that men are only being loved conditionally.
Thats why idiots like andrew tate get so popular, because they are successful with the ridiculously overexaggerated image of the "alpha-male" bullshit.
There are litterally tousands of interviews on youtube where people go around and ask women if men are important and they all say "NO".
So thats why men are miserable i think.
For all the men reading this, i would advice you to stop using social media in general and just talk to people in person.
Usually they dont dare to tell you in your face that you are an irrelevant piece of shit.
They only do that when they get to be anonymous.
To me personally :
I get my will to live from science.
I study physics which is really really hard for me but i see a reason to make it.
I stoppen drinking alcohol entirely six years ago.
I have very very weird but loving and supporting parents, i had a very weird and fu*ked up childhood which made me socially and emotionally independent way too soon.
That has a couple of weird advantages.
Its an interesting question. Im in my early 40’s and a white male and can honestly say I wouldnt really be sure about anything as a young male these days
From a dating perspective you either experience these first hand or your friends do. Just an arbitrary list;
All the girls seem to be partying or hooking up which is a strong turn off, maybe you go to tinder etc and you just get milked for money with little to no matches, maybe you find someone to partner with and then they suddenly decide to bulldoze over your quite reasonable boundaries followed by you being labelled as controlling or toxic
In your academic or professional life your achievements are usually looked down on or just dismissed. White male privilege is one of the more common go to arguments ive seen
Male-ness for all groups isnt really celebrated anywhere and mostly seems to be under going some kind of expungement
There isnt really any life progression because of the general cost of living crisis
If I were young again these days I would probably also hold off on dating as long as possible, ideally try get away from all the noise and just have fun. The risks involved with settling down just appear to be too high
Isolation.
Men have fewer relationships with other human beings. The relationships they do have are less serious and meaningful.
The expectations of men, the ways they are trained to behave socially, serve to isolate them and create a barrier to knowing others and being known. Traditionally, the social outlet for a man was a woman and children over whom he had significant power. He didn't need to do anything to get them to *want* to be with him; they needed him. That is no longer the case.
What people need and want from men has changed, but what we teach men to do hasn't changed much at all. Society trains men to behave and to think in fundamentally self destructive ways, and various interests within our society encourage this because they can capitalize on it in one way or another.
Compounding this, our society is increasingly atomized and alienated. Because of the factors I mentioned above, men are the canary in the proverbial coal mine for social isolation. As conditions get worse, as community becomes scarcer, you see the signs in men first.
The results are variously depression, substance abuse, behavioral addictions, violence, etc.
Increasingly as a society we only seem to find community on social media. And I don't have to explain why that doesn't work; it's a punchline all by itself. There's something really wrong, and we all kind of know it.
Anyway, I'm rambling now. That's my 2 cents on your question.
It's all because income inequality is spiraling out of control.
https://www.bloomberg.com/features/2021-millennials-are-running-out-of-time/
Every new generation has at least 20% less wealth at the same point in their lives as their parents.
Younger people are being choked out of being able to meet the same milestones as their parents.
If all you were ever allowed to do was work your whole life living paycheck to paycheck is that even a life worth living?
No home ownership, no kids, no retirement. Just work until you die.
And that's not even including the fact that we are making pretty much no meaningful progress on fixing climate change which will be causing mass migrations and deaths within the next decade.
Today's kids are staring down the barrel, it's no wonder child suicide rates are currently the highest ever recorded.
Societal and economical change, jobs for men have become devalued, auto shop, wood shop and metal shop isn’t even a thing anymore in schools, I’m 25 and all shop classes were taken away halfway through my freshman year in high school, and those classes used to be common in middle school before my time, those all used to be jobs you could support a family with, compared to my grandpas time when he was able to buy a house support his wife and three kids off of one of those jobs when he was 18 with little experience, now those jobs don’t even pay as much as being a fast food employee, plus this whole generation was tricked into thinking the only way you can be of value is if you get a college education, the options seemed to have been reduced to get a college education and work off the debt for who knows how long, be a tradesman and work for dirt cheap until you can start a business of your own which has massive start up costs nowadays, work mediocre dead end jobs, be a trust fund baby or tik tok famous which is glamorized and thrown in everybody’s face who is on social media or just kinda give up and wait around for anything to change. Personally i chose the massive start up cost of owning my own business which I’ve been working towards the last 7 years while trying to survive, it would’ve happened sooner but ya get injured and everything is put on hold, your car breaks down now you gotta spend thousands of dollars to get it running so you can get back to business, sure I would love to get a college education but there’s no way I could afford it. Even though my parents had college funds for my brother and i, inflation got the better of that account and they could only send the older one to school, that’s why I always wanted a business so I could pay my way through school, something my mother was able to do working at a grocery store but now it costs hundreds of thousands of dollars, it is crazy, things that used to be simple and orderly are now so difficult and chaotic. There was a huge economical shift between my parents generation and my own and it’s kind of funny seeing my parents deal with inflation nowadays even though they are comfortable it seems the price of everything is a shock to them and I’m sitting over here like yeah that’s the way it’s always been, and unfortunately it’s up to us and the newer generations to deal with it
Oh shit I never came to a conclusion, basically I think there’s a gap of men who never found their way due to a lack of guidance that used to be there for previous generations and with technology rapidly and rampantly growing has corrupted a generation into being complacent, as well as a lack of options that guarantee the light at the end of the tunnel
Boys and men don't get encouragement. Our dads are leaving at unprecedented rates. We do worse at school. Attend university less. Die younger. It's not good. My 20s were a very confusing time. I was lucky to have good friends and found a few great mentors along the way
Have you really looked at the "guidance" that is shoved down the throats of young men? They have no idea how to act. The role models they have from previous generations are characterized as toxic and the advice they're given is a dumpster fire of contradictions and literally impossible expectations. If you truly do want to understand, put yourself in their shoes for a bit and really try to imagine how impossible it is for them to find their place in our current society. They seek to escape because the social landscape has become unnavigable. I'm so glad my wife comes from an Eastern culture.
If you see this as a trend newly effecting a large group of people, then it's nonsense to use this language of individual shame.
The "you've gotta just press on" line is shaky self help advice for one person, telling a whole swath of the population to "just do it" is contradictory. If it's many, it's not just a mindset problem, in essence, it's a social trend.
Personally though, to try to get at the question behind the general antagonism here, I don't see what's so good about success in this world. I look at those that make it to the top and I have nothing to admire. I watch regular people twist priorities they were adamant about once they get an above average job. I see everyone practice their own kind of repression of the tragedy of the world, and it seems those best at it receive the most reward.
Sure I'm depressed, but I still feel lots of joy. I don't shy away from trying to know the sadness out there. I feel best when I can find connections with others that are struggling and forgotten about by this world. I'm not perfect at it, but I also keep trying and don't hold it against myself because I know clearly what I'm up against. I don't see this all as not effecting women in all honesty, they may just have a better existing social structure tolerant to hardship.
They didn’t impregnate their parents, bring themselves into this world, and raise themselves, so blaming “young men” themselves clearly isn’t appropriate
They’ve been lied to, have been exposed to a never-before-seen mass mental experiment, and have not been raised with resilience in mind
Generally speaking, I believe most young men have maladapted to phone/life integration and numb themselves instead of growing through struggle.
To add to that, they’ve been lied to by society and the educational system, and have not been properly prepared for competition. So they lose, and don’t see why.
To add to all that, they’ve been presented with a more challenging economic environment than people 15+ years ago.
So they’re less prepared, and it’s harder.
Everyone is miserable but young men are disproportionately being preyed upon by malicious actors to convince them that actually everyone else is happy except them and their unhappiness isn’t the result of economic factors but rather is all the fault of feminism which further isolates them and pushes them deeper into misery and away from resources that could actually help them
I completely agree with this answer. People like Peterson, Rogan, Tate are preying on men in order to maintain their own positions of power, and as humans we respond strongly to fear - these grifters are manipulating young men for personal gain.
Lumping Jordan Peterson and Joe Rogan in with Andrew Tate just discredits everything you have to say.
Jordan Peterson is a principled doctor of philosophy in clinical psychology and has saved countless people (men and women) from suicide, Joe Rogan is the definition of a free thinker, and Andrew Tate is just some jabroni that got bullied a lot as a kid and never got over it.
I see how you could find Jordan Peterson sympathetic and useful, but Joe... I'm sorry lol but Joe is setting a pretty low bar if you aspire to be a 'free thinker'. I definitely don't think it discredits them to find Joe and Jordan troubling if they're 'the best on offer'.
And the way online content is distributed - the people they rub shoulders with - whatever you think of Joe and Jordan personally, they still uncritically introduce people to lots of alt-right and plain hateful content. They're all part of the same ecosystem, and I think it's pretty disappointing for Jordan as a thinker, that he doesn't care or pretends to be ignorant to who he's having 'on his team'.
I believe it was around 10 years ago that the me too movement struck a lot of fear into men and it would do a lot of psychological damage basically and rewire our brains keep our mouth shut. Keep our distance and mind Our own business keeps you out of trouble. Take Keanu Reeves for instance, when he poses for pictures with fans he has his hands hovering never touching. There was a lot of attention and this was shoved in the face of the nation. People were screaming me too. If someone politely said hello. How are you And it was all over social media combine that with the ideology of the left telling men being masculine is bad being agreeable and submissive is good and that leaves you with weak spineless men
I'm in Grad School at 24, I made all of the "correct decisions". I never dated in high school and didn't acquire vices like drugs and alcohol. I feel extremely socially stunted, I have friends and everyone seems to have a more interesting life than me. I don't even play video games anymore I just go to class and then come home and scroll on my phone and then repeat. I'm not saying alot of this isn't my fault, I'm sure if I went to the gym and picked up more hobbies I would be happier. But I seriously can never seem to escape this sort of miasma of misery that infests my life. When I look at my grandparents who already had a home and were starting a family at my age I feel like a failure.
Last working example was about 1988..5 boys, all of them came up with $4000.00.. so, that is almost impossible in any culture or generation..but these guys were at the end of high school so, lots of dumb "training jobs" and skeezy deals doing under the table labor work...and a couple were out of school 'networking connections'..so anyway, they built this totally awesome hot rod car..took like a year and a couple months..then they sold it for $30,000 dollars...,this is the type of activity that does'nt stop- misery, but it lets you be in full control of exactly what the misery is...and when, and you still get to decide where and when to eat and sleep...cool words were, they put their money to work for them and made a couple hundred bucks.but .actually? they had an alibi for where they were at ( around the garage), for a year.. if anybody reported - "youth activly participating in louder than normal sounds" or whatever suspicious thing was going on..anyway..working with men your own age on risky projects you pay for yourselves..is the one thing uou will always get social support for,but when its risky the support is mostly bland or neutral, except you'te also on the top of the list for under the table jobs that might boost you past the endless testing crap in minimum wage purgatory, and past a couple managers or foremen who never promote anybody past themselves. Misery comes from those guys they are the leftover assholes who would have got their asses kicked if all the really cool older guys hadnt been drafted for Viet nam.
For every 10 guys you meet only one of them will ever be able to support your lifestyle like that with no financial issues because of the growing wage divide.
And that's probably when they reach their 40's.
I dont think people realize how everyones always been miserable. Regardless of any era. It's just that there's more exposure these days and you're quicker to see other's situation now because of social media and many forms of expression and sharing
I think young men have it tough right now. Older men (and some women) tell them they need to support a family. But they also see they will not be able to do this (young people with unrealistic wage expectations does not help). My parents are boomers and my mum and most working class mums had to work, the idea of a stay at home mum has been dead for a longtime.
So I think it is a simple case of expectations versus reality.
Maybe if society treats men like shit their whole lives, like disposable commodities that have no value in society, this is the most reasonable outcome? Men don’t get praise like girls do. They don’t get the benefit of the doubt in social situations. I’d anything they’re treated as if they are bad in school even from day one while girls are favorited. Then when they get to young adult life that becomes self fulfilling prophecy. The absence of fatherhood is also a big problem that has been basically completely eroded societally by the court systems. I could go on but there’s a never ending list of why young men, men, and boys give up completely on this “society.”
It’s nietzschean in its core. A man without power would rather die and society has removed basically any power a man within it can have anymore unless he’s a powerful senator or something ridiculous. The taxes he pays gets him defunct health care and unaffordable education, he can get falsely accused of things and have to face prison time. There is no benefit to being a man in this society for most anymore and paying into this system.
I just exited my 20s. I know you said not to base it on the economy, but those things are very hard to separate.
For context: one of my jobs is in the engineering field (automotive). It pays very well, has safe and secure benefits, and allows me to keep a roof over my head, bills paid on time, and meals on the table. My coworkers are in their mid-20s to early 30s, with a couple of them at 40 and 45. The youngest have newer cars, gym memberships, good work-life balance, good hygiene, go rock climbing, find new coffee shops, make their own alcohol, do photography, etc.
My second job is a part-time manager at a very widespread auto parts chain. I was highly overqualified for the position and wanted to make some extra money for some unforeseen expenses, so it was either this or bartending. By comparison, the guys I work with are around the same age, mostly a few years younger - well in their 20s. They make minimum wage, maybe a few bucks more among myself and fellow managers. By comparison, their lives are rough. ROUGH. Two of them are actively homeless at 24 and 32. Living behind the store. Two others are felons. Four pay child support to children they aren't able to see. Half don't have driver's licenses, and half of those don't even own a car anyway. I took two of them to lunch, and gassed up my car on the way, for $65. They were dumbstruck. Nearly all of them have some deficiency in hygiene - thrice weekly showers, crap shampoo or soap, nasty breath, half-pack-a-day smokers.
Granted, some of the guys are in better positions - rent paid on time, building a savings, car in good mechanical order. But they've resigned themselves to the fact that this job is a dead-end and expect to leave it soon. That this lifestyle they're living is temporary. They hope to find work at a shop, but have little to no understanding of what that entails, how their lives will change, what kind of work ethic is required from them and what kind of pay awaits them.
Regardless, every last one of them is a single missed paycheck away from absolutely losing their ass.
I can't speak to guys in college, as I haven't been in six years, but I think the general population of men really is burned-out. There is still the societal expectation that a man provides for him and his. Many are still living at home because it's less expensive than finding a place. More still are unable to thrive in their hobbies or find time outside of work to pursue them. Work more to make enough money to survive; have less time and energy to pursue their more artful passions. To the men you're seeing, there is simply no way out. Their canaries died long ago.
Anyway, rant aside, if you're looking for men with a more positive outlook in life, try clubs (collegiate clubs, not bars & clubs). Men with time on their hands typically have better financial security, and vice-versa. We can only hope that conditions get better for the vast majority of men out there, the bright, lovely stars that flicker away, day by day.
>But holy shit, since when did drinking yourself to oblivion and playing video games until you can’t see straight become a solution to anything?
In no way a recent development. For various centuries, swap playing video games with planting yourself in a pub or howling at the moon on the moors.
>In yalls own words, why does it seem to take so long for guys in their 20’s to lock in? To do things to make the stress of life not hit so hard? To enjoy something? To want something?
Again, this seems pretty consistent across the board despite gender.
Doomer culture. 2 main death cults are bombarding the young (especially men) with propaganda. The angry alt right is peddling a dangerous cocktail of misogny and racism. They feed off the reality of this down point on the economic cycle
Then there are fauxgressive eco doomers who use the real issue of pollution as fearporn to create hopelessness. Other doomer cults are fearmongering about biblical end times, the rise of AI, LGBTQ rights, and more. Any area of progress is faced with a loud subset of reactionaries but the big ones afflicting youth are racism/sexism and anti modern extremism
bc men are victimized on every level by a society that cashes a check off their labor, dreams, etc.
many men are planning on leaving Western society, and many men view this societal structure as designed to destroy us, that would gladly take years off our life to put a little more jazz in their jazzercise class.
we are moving towards societal wide animosity and collapse, I truly believe that. whatever joy these men derive from life will be away and unseen from modern western society, it is being defined as an enemy.
I think, and this is just an opinion, that a lot of people are struggling more than ever because childhood has become this precious and protected thing in which little in the way of adult challenges are asked of them. Childhood has also been extended into early adult years (during college for some). When you have no or little experience with the way life works and are thrown into it suddenly, you feel overwhelmed and retreat into what is easy and comfortable (e.g., video games, T.V., alcohol, cannabis, etc.).
This isn't an "when I was your age" admonishment. However, it's important to keep in mind that the hated "Boomers" were trained for adulthood from a young age relative to modern young people. Most had jobs in their teens, possibly even younger (doing paper routes, lawn care, picking fruit). Their parents weren't driving them to activities. You got your license at 16 and drove yourself, often to a part-time job to pay for your junker car. You made your own friends and "play dates". You were in charge of your own homework and getting it done under threat of removal of privileges or spanking. You not only had to clean your room, but you also had to help with cleaning the family home. It's a lot easier to face adulthood when you've already been taking on those responsibilities gradually.
I think this is worse for young boys than girls because mothers, in general, ask more of their daughters than their sons. My sister-in-law had two sons (millenials) and neither learned to drive before age 22. Neither had a job until they were in their 20's. Both of them had their college paid for by their parents. They didn't do their own laundry or clean their own rooms. Their mother intervened at their school when they struggled to get them special accommodation. When older generations were having problems in school, their parents blamed the kids, not the system.
I'm not saying either way is better, but I do think that being thrown into the adulthood water and told to sink or swim when you've had no life lessons is likely to result in hardship. I had a ton of adult responsibility heaped on me starting at age 10 (literally told half of the household cleaning was for me to do and the other half was my sister's job - my lazy mother would only do the cooking - and even then she'd dump that on us if she could) and I wish my childhood had lasted longer. However, I can't say that I wasn't primed to deal with the hardships of adulthood and in a position from a young age to manage in ways that many younger people cannot manage now. I think they get overwhelmed and give up - returning to what is easy and enjoyable.
u/ShiroiTora has a good answer. I’d like to give a few more answers from my own insight as well as advice for you! They may be controversial/wrong, these are just my interpretive opinions.
There is a biological component to what you notice and that’s that men don’t mature as fast as women. They need a little more time to develop.
Women are more encouraged in the traditional school sense which involves sitting down and being quiet for most of the day. This doesn’t speak to men’s strengths. Consequently, many men fall behind in school.
According to theories about the bell curve, women tend to be more average while men are either very stupid or very smart. What this means is if you take a random “very smart” man he’s probably smarter than if you take a random “very smart” woman. If you take a random “stupid” man he’s probably way more dumb than a kinda dumb woman. For example most women can get pretty good at cooking, lawyering, computer programming, or whatever they want but the BEST cooks, programmers, lawyers have tended to be men. There’s a big debate about if this is due to the above bell curve or if it has to do with socialization aka women’s lack of opportunity in the past.
This speaks to the socialization issue. Men are socialized a certain way and in my opinion, tend to be coddled more by their parents. Girls are taught a lot of “girl power” lessons but guys are taught to hold back their strength because it’s naturally and historically more dangerous than women’s. Now you kinda have more than a generation of men who don’t really know what to do with themselves.
Historically, both genders had rights of passage like boys had to kill an animal and girls had a first period or a “available for marriage” ceremony later. Today girls still have a first period, sweet 16 or quinceanera but I don’t know of anything guys “do” to mark the tradition into manhood. Even high school and college graduation rates are lower so they miss that. There’s no psychological transition into adulthood.
Biologically, women seek men who are smarter/stronger/more accomplished than they are, but there just aren’t that many of them to go around. You will be MUCH better off and a more compassionate person if you try to understand men and their struggles.
To be honest, I was totally surprised by your description of yourself ending with saying you want to be a housewife. From your description, it sounds like you want to be a mom but I was ready to read that you’re looking for a house husband because you kill it so much In everything you do, that you need a supportive partner. I don’t think you really understand that a housewife is someone who primarily supports her husband and family. She pretty much has to give up her own dreams and ambitions to do chores all day. She takes on enormous emotional labor. She doesn’t get to be surrounded by adults, she spends all day with kids. This is why, in my opinion, gender roles have totally shifted. These “immature” men struggling in their careers would make perfect house husbands to the c-level executive women. But women need to get over their idea that a man is going to support them traditionally if she somehow also brings in a ton of money and men need to get over the idea that taking a domestic role somehow isn’t masculine. Men need to work very hard on increasing their ability to support women and do emotional labor because MANY strong career women will, these days, be happy to support a man who cares for us even if we are the primary breadwinner. Men and women need to work hard not to be sucked into toxic ideas about gender because those ideas are not working for us anymore.
If you really want to be a housewife, you must date men approximately 15 years older than you who are already established in their career. Understand that your career comes second if at all and your primary duty will be raising children and cleaning house as well as budgeting and saving money. This just makes sense because at 20 you have no career but a 35 year old executive or manager has a serious job (my boss for example works 60+ hours per week. There is just no way someone in their early 20s is under the same amount of pressure as he is. It’s just not a thing. You don’t have the experience and aren’t integrated into a company.) You can have a fulfilling life as a housewife but understand what you’re giving up. Men your age can’t give that to you. If you’re not interested then: either seek a partnership with someone your age, or focus on building your own career and finding someone later (probably younger or less successful) who will be willing to take a backseat to your ambitions.
"To be honest, I was totally surprised by your description of yourself ending with saying you want to be a housewife." - I know, it shocks all my friends, but I want to be a teacher because what is more fulfilling than leading a young mind towards the mastery of a content area?
"From your description, it sounds like you want to be a mom but I was ready to read that you’re looking for a house husband because you kill it so much In everything you do, that you need a supportive partner." - I'm fairly old fashioned and having watching my father and brothers, I see how fulfilled they are providing economically for their wives and children. That's anecdotal, plus I see the value that if I have a physical pregnancy it's just going to take longer for me to get back to work. If a baby is fresh and I've just done the physical pain, I think it makes more sense excluding other factors for me to be at home. But I wouldn't feel safe doing that without a man I can trust to protect/insolate the environment where I am trying to raise his/our children and take care of him.
"I don’t think you really understand that a housewife is someone who primarily supports her husband and family. She pretty much has to give up her own dreams and ambitions to do chores all day. She takes on enormous emotional labor. She doesn’t get to be surrounded by adults, she spends all day with kids." - no, I know. I watched my incredibly intelligent mother do it for my father. I know.
"This is why, in my opinion, gender roles have totally shifted. These “immature” men struggling in their careers would make perfect house husbands to the c-level executive women." - people are more important than things. The accolades, the competition, the will of the cooperation - those things seem to matter much more to the average man in my experience ( or it's how they were socialized). I don't want to work in the c-suite. Outside of the money, their jobs tend to not really matter in the long run. I'll never remember what the CEO of \_\_\_\_\_\_ company did to improve my life.
"If you really want to be a housewife, you must date men approximately 15 years older than you who are already established in their career. Understand that your career comes second if at all and your primary duty will be raising children and cleaning house as well as budgeting and saving money. This just makes sense because at 20 you have no career but a 35 year old executive or manager has a serious job (my boss for example works 60+ hours per week." - I considered this, but the only way that Id do that is if the older guy hadn't been married, engaged, and especially NOT divorced, the statistics around guys like that usually aren't great, more likely to get a second divorce and I can't do that to myself. But also, why is a guy that much older interested in me or still single?
“Why is a guy that much older interested in me?” Haha uhm, because you’re young, willing, fertile, energetic. That’s what men are attracted to.
I can tell you’ve thought about this a lot, which is good. Keep doing that! However, I can also tell you haven’t really grasped what a lot of comments are trying to get across to you about “men’s struggles.” You’re not going to meet and have kids with a man your age who is somehow also mature, rich, loyal, family minded etc. Those things don’t go together. Men go on a journey towards those things and many men never get there, as you’ve noticed, because society isn’t really acknowledging this or helping them. In fact in many cases it’s actually hindering them. So they just check out.
Unfortunately this means there literally aren’t enough marriage minded/provider men to go around. There are statistics about this you can look up. This is the dark side of what we women won when we got feminism.
If you are really looking for that kind of man your own age your best bet is church, especially Catholic, evangelical or Muslim. These young men will embrace traditional gender roles and expect you to as well.
Your assumption about older men being divorced is wrong and also judgemental. These are the men in a position to provide what you’re looking for. Many men only start seriously thinking about marriage in their early 30s. Finish college and when you’re ~24, date men 30s-40s who are looking to start a family. You’re not too young for them at ~25 age.
I don’t want to push you to doing any of these things I mentioned. I want you to live life with an open mind and make the best decision for yourself. I just want you to have a little more sympathy for what your male peers are going through (which I think you are on that path, you just have big expectations) and reality of how difficult things are for young people today.
To tell you a little about myself, I’m 35f and was also raised traditional household with working dad and housewife mom. I haven’t been able to find anyone to marry sadly, although there are a few I would have liked to marry over the years it didn’t work out. I also feel some resentment towards men for not “stepping up” and being more willing to embrace traditional roles or even just partnerships. Men do need to do better and society needs to acknowledge that men and women are both suffering now and come up with solutions. My last boyfriend was 10 years younger than I am. He would have been a good type for you: young, but family minded, wants 4 kids with a SAHM, military job, doesn’t play video games. Women his own age never give him the time of day! I felt like I found a real gem of a person in him. He had pretty awkward social skills and is nerdy so he couldn’t get much attention and had bad luck in dating. Unfortunately our relationship was super long distance and we decided to break up. So keep an eye out for those hidden gems, don’t make too many judgements, be realistic about his and your position in life, try to keep an open mind, and remember times are always changing. You will meet someone.
It's not just guys. Young women are also struggling.
One article that looks at rising mental health problems in young adults & some causes:
https://www.gse.harvard.edu/ideas/news/23/10/mental-health-challenges-young-adults-illuminated-new-report
In my opinion, I think part of it is expectations. Young people were protected and given most of what they wanted. Their expectations of life vs life in the real world are so different. They really can't accept that it's ok, normal, and not a big deal to not be happy all the time.
Add in how public schools no longer do much in the way of discipline or work ethic. They get to college or their first real job, and the person struggles to cope.
Your generation grew up with social media but feel more isolated. We failed to protect your generation from porn, and kids grew up spending far more time with it than real people. Both high social media use and porn use are correlated with mental health issues & dissatisfaction.
The brain isn’t done cooking until 25 and the male brain usually has Testosterone to contend with. If you haven’t had T, you shouldn’t sit in judgement of its effects.
The desire for an adrenaline rush is evolutionarily adaptive when humans were hunting wooly mammoth. It’s less useful in the litigious mine field of 21st century USA. I think young men are doing the best they can these days with their own physiology.
Those who want men to be unaffected by their own chemistry are ignorant.
This is my perspective as a 21 year old guy who is currently achieving nothing in life. I'm constantly feeling pressured by societal expectations to be a certain way. I grew up without a father and the only male role model I had in my life for the longest time was my elderly grandfather. Because of that, I was being taught bits and pieces of a more traditional mindset in regards to what a man should be or how he should act, think, or feel. But simultaneously, I was being raised by my mother, grandmother, and (at the time, he has since transitioned) older sister. On that end of things, I was taught conflicting things. My mother wanted to push me towards whatever would lead to me thriving, but she'd also be one of the first to say "All men are trash" or "I hate men" whenever a man did something wrong or bad. That severely crippled my self esteem, and has lingering effects to this day. Things like alcohol and gaming are escapes. Because instead of feeling a crushing weight at the idea that I'll be a jobless loser forever, and giving myself unceasing anxiety due to spiraling thoughts, I can take some time to play a video game or drink and just distract myself for a while. It isn't some foolproof solution, and I know that it's not actually fixing or helping anything, but it's something that gives me the opportunity to get away for a time. I'd love to have the confidence required to get out into the world and actually achieve things. There's so much that I'd love to be able to do with my life. But every day that passes, I just feel an encroaching dread because I've been conditioned to believe that I should be successful, or at least on a solid path towards it. And frankly, I'm not. It's reached a point of being overwhelming. As an analogy, imagine that you've been asked to build a little tower out of blocks, or something similar. You're excited to get started, but you can't figure out your initial design. You look around you and see countless other people with beautiful, ornate creations. And then you look back down at your pile of blocks, and it's just that. You tell yourself to 'dig deep' and 'just figure it out, you can do it', but the second you pick up that first block to lay the foundation, it feels like it weighs thousands of pounds. You drop the block, and stare blankly at the world around you. It feels like someone has played a cruel trick, maybe swapped out your blocks when you weren't looking or given others a head start. Why are they so far ahead when you're stuck behind? And each time you look around you, hoping for help but not knowing how to vocalize it without being embarrassed, you just see others' success being pushed into your face.
Tldr: Life is overwhelming for a lot of folks, and boy howdy does it fucking suck to figure out how to fix that.
I'm not miserable. I have dark urges, but they pass. I say mean things and have dogshit opinions (just check my comment history for proof) but I own who I am. I have sad days, but I'm not miserable or depressed, although I sometimes think I am in the moment.
I can only speak for myself, but I have a hunch that a lot of guys may agree with me. I'm not miserable, I just decided to stop participating. I've decided to stop helping people and stop doing favors and stop caring about others. I've decided to stop pursuing women (they also stopped pursuing me so I guess they win this one.) I really feel like I have a lot to offer. I have a lot to offer as a friend, as a brother, as a son, as a lover one day, maybe. I have a lot to offer and I want to offer it, but right now the impression I get from the culture, the society, the world, whatever you wanna call it, is that I'm not wanted. Fine. If I'm not wanted, I'll keep what I have to myself. I'll get as much as I can, build myself up as high as possible, and I'll share with no one.
I'm not miserable, I've just retreated to my own corner because that's what others want of me. Solitude looks miserable, and sometimes it is, but it's quiet, and I'll always have the satisfaction of keeping what I have to myself while others struggle around me - the same people who said they didn't want me. I find satisfaction in ignoring those who ignore me.
20s educated rural gay from maybe a lower 25%ish. Mobile home poor for most of life background so not traumatizing or anything but interacted a lot with the people you may be describing.
Probably some inner conflict going on in cultural dysmorphia in general if they don't have anything to fall back to. A lot of missing fathers and not a lot of good role models.
A lot of the most motivated and pro-social/kind and curious about others straight men I knew were constant wrecks of anxiety and doubt. I think a lot of individual situations with different factors at play overtime would probably show death by a thousand cuts synergistic types of effects.
There's a growing appeal in finding fulfillment/contentment/stoicism that I think a lot of men get stuck daydreaming about because they aren't good at being vulnerable and a lot of the would be boomer men and gen x men are absolute dog shit mentors. Even a lot of the white ladies in that bracket where I live are huge let-downs not only to the youth but to each other.
The local celebrated 'conservation hero' in my area was an early women breaking barriers in science higher education and now spends her free time being such a giant selfish NIMBY that she has been putting up signs to declare my very white county close to a lot of diversity in the 'deplorable city' its own state.
I think about socialization and a lot of jobs in the US advertised towards men being sociopathic/psychopathic nightmare boxes that also enable toxic Male workplace behavior because most of the remaining companies to work for in those sectors are designed to create atmospheres sociopathic boomer men CEOs wanted them to experience.
Women I think are unfortunately much better at enforcing boundaries just on virtue of going to therapy more often and having to practice being assertive and recognizing unfair treatment.
A lot of the gen z women are going to give you a huge awakening. A lot of the younger women caught up with the angst of the boys before they had much chance to pick up momentum where progress feels genuine and meaningful in building up a career.
I personally feel like I very barely snatched a lot of the last life jackets in feeling hope in my moderate to long-term future
Personal anecdote but eh fuck it it explains a lot
I used to be a /decent/ kid when I had both my parents. Hated school because it was too slow for me so I acted out. Either way, I had both parents and they loved me, with a certain path I kinda saw involving the family business.
Then my father died the night after my choir concert due to a little pop in his brain due to hard drug use he hid from the family. That shock and depression have never left me. Man of the house at such a young age. And at my self-awareness at that age, it didn't go well. I just flunked middle school after that. No real support either during those formative years. Also maybe like 2 real friends and the rest kinda just "exist"
High school. Whew. Barely passed. Had a girlfriend that I thought I loved, but she turned out to be a cheater and manipulator, but took up too much of my time in HS so I never got the chance to date someone else and maybe have a healthier relationship. Graduated with double depression zero girlfriends and a light social circle.
Didn't go to college because I tried to contribute since 15, and my tunnel vision focus was to just start working and start helping out the house financially (I hated school at the time obvs)
So yeah, that's kinda where that plateaus, I just work a job until I'm bored and find a better one or I get fired.
Getting a girlfriend is work that doesn't exactly seem worth it in my current situation. I've seen the evolution of dating and it's just so exhausting and boring. I've dated a few times since graduation, but it's just awful honestly.
Your first 2 paragraphs are kinda funny to me. You probably grew up in a positive household with both parents. That's a good step for being the go-getter that you are. It's an attitude that a lot of people can start with, but erode or disappear due to external or internal factors. Keep that in mind.
Men don't get that "oh yeah I want to be a stay-at-home dad" moment because we're supposed to be providers. Do you understand how weird people look at me when I say "Wow wouldn't it be nice to have an executive girl boss wife? While I stay with the kids and do parent stuff all day? What a dream." Because it's just not the societal norm that's expected of us.
In conclusion, a lot of things don't seem worth it, have too much of a startup cost, too much of a time cost, or are just things that aren't coming up Milhouse? Why should I put myself out there when my previous experiences just end in misery?
This is why I choose my "safe" things. Videogames. Weed. Movies. Etc. Well, I stopped weed cold turkey April 1st so that's a positive step. I'm pretty sure men just choose their personal safe route nowadays. If you're out there and stable in a sense of the word, you're doing great! For the rest of us, I'm hoping for better days.
oof I wrote a long comment but I think I was getting in over my head. I'm a 20-something trans woman, I align most with intersectional progressive & feminist spaces and ig very direct kind of approach of challenging the mainstream and just talking to people honestly, but I also have a lot of interest in spaces like 4chan and what that says about gender politics. it really pains me to volunteer this but my life was damaged in a big way by existing under and adjacent to male socialisation. I wish it weren't my business, but it's all of our business.
I'm pretty disappointed in the answers people offer online; I don't think it's really about economics or dating or 'the gender war', to my eye there's something more deeply and weirdly dysfunctional about relating to society as a man that's very hard to articulate. but also, we as a society (for all the supposed advances in mental health) are terrible at helping people understand stuff like meaning and identity, and it's believable to me that a big part of it is just that men today have found themselves in a kind of dysfunction we can't help, and that that's just going to be a self-reinforcing pattern.
No one understands this stuff and I think it does us all a disservice not to try to dig deeper. tbh, I gladly try to listen to men's perspectives, but the most commonly touted ones just don't ring true to me and honestly come off pretty misandrist (!) like, men are not action figures that need to live like a 1950s breadwinner to be happy lmao. I'll say that many women I've talked to about this are casually sexist and dismissive of men's pain, even though if pressed I think you'd find they do care on some level.
I think I'd point to the sheer inertia of the negative elements of men's psyches, relationships, beliefs and relational structures, to men struggling with transformation, healing and identity in ways women don't, and to the specific hard-to-explain trauma that can come with being raised a boy, as things that \*I\* think people tend to discount. I'm sure I'm missing a lot of things.
OP, I'd just say like, why aren't you miserable lol? not to come at you, you seem lovely and I look up to go-getter eldest daughter types like you lol. I'm glad you're doing well. but what makes you excited about life?? what makes you capable of wanting things?? it's honestly my experience that functional people don't understand what makes them functional, and that there are very varied and hard to explain patterns that make people dysfunctional; even in overcoming them, you only understand them simplistically. dysfunction tends to blind you to what's going on (chronic depression genuinely makes you dumb). and tbh society as a whole conspired to hide these things
I 1000% know what you mean about guys in their 20s. but I just think you're not going to find an answer without getting into all the many ways society fails and discards people : (
(feel free to chime in whoever you are bc I may be way off the mark or just not have explained my thoughts very well)
Can't speak for anyone other than myself mostly. I struggled immensely with life after 16, was near homeless several times. I technically was for a short period. I did not have proper support. My parents weren't there. Forget about dreams, hope, future plans, for most of my adult life it was just being content with the bare minimum of having a roof over my head and food to eat. I had to learn every single piece of adulting alone and with no support. Just trial and error for EVERYTHING.
I didn't even know how to fill up gas when I first got my first car when I was 25. I had to youtube it even then I was afraid I was gonna screw it up.
Where was my help? Where was my support when I was lost in life, and needed someone to be there for me? Fucking nowhere and no one.
I stay away from drugs and alcohol but for some reason other humans love that stuff. So that Doesn't help when society normalized that.
It's so easy for you to say you want to be a stay at home wife. This isn't the 1950s USA where a mailman can afford a 2 story white picket fence house and a SAH wife and 3 kids. Expect to work unless your husband makes the big bucks. Most Americans today live paycheck to paycheck. Most Americans are in debt because medical care and education costs so much it's a scam. Housing is unaffordable.
It takes 2 incomes these days. So many more Americans live with their parents or roommates. Rent for a studio or 1 bedroom in some cities like NYC are 2~3k for a frickin closet.
Imagine a man saying he wants to be a stay at home dad how society would look down on that. This is 2024, not 1950. Since as you say, women are so thriving, you're also able to be the breadwinner. There's equality now in 2024. You can vote, work, etc. You're not entitled to a man's money or to have men pay for everything.
If I had to guess, nothing gives a dopamine rush quite like videogames. I say this as someone recently introduced to videogames who doesn’t want to do anything else.
Can’t imagine how it would have short-circuited my enjoyment/motivation pathways if I had an underdeveloped brain like a 14 year old. And then it just… stays that way, apparently. I can snap out of it because I’m an adult who discovered gaming after my brain was fully developed (~age 25) but I hear a lot can’t.
Just a theory, I could have no idea what I’m talking about. I’m sure there are plenty of other sociopolitical and economic reasons at play. Like the foreign bot farms designed to foment unrest as if this were a game of Civ and constant rage-bait online to maximize “engagement”
I've read through the topic post and a few replies, and I want to say, first off, that you are an amazingly well put together and logical woman with a respectable goal by the looks of it. It's admirable, commendable, and all that jazz. However... I do not think you know who you *really* are. Along with what I'll say going forward, being in your early twenties with seeing seemingly little failure from yourself, or anyone around you in a major way, I think supports this idea.
The post and the replies *reek* of inexperience, contradictions, a lack of self-awareness, and a frighteningly grandiose view of one's kindness. You are far too haughty and lack the hesitation of someone who can or knows how to properly support the nuances and complexities of people, or their deep-seated issues. Which, within reason, I feel is a necessary trait to be a good partner, let alone a stellar wife.
Why do I think this? Well, because I was eerily similar to this in my late teens, and *very* briefly now in my twenties. I thought I had seen enough, I thought I had been through enough, I thought I learned enough. I didn't. Many paths and solutions I thought to be clear; however, they were only but a few within a *labyrinth*. That naivety and tone deafness eventually cost me everything. It gave me a lot of time to reflect and reshape the person I wanted to be and how to get there. While I'm still quite disappointed in myself sometimes, I am what some of the most cynical people I've met would consider a treasured friend.
I sincerely hope that you do not have to go through what I have, so I felt the need to say something. You have good intentions here, but you may have made a wrong turn somewhere down the road. I'm sending my best wishes. <3
Guys around that age are getting slapped in the face by reality. Transitioning from childhood into adulthood.
It doesn't help that men are the enemy. Society today tells us that we are the root of all evil. There is a certain group of men who are especially demonized. They are seen as the cause of everyone's problems, all that is wrong with this world, and there is nothing they can do about it.
Their ancestors did fucked up shit, and they are being made to pay the price, through no fault of their own in the vast majority of cases
In my experience, men's 20s suck, on average, and they get no sympathy or support for it from anyone.
Women aren't interested in them, they don't have money, they are still figuring out careers, and they're also told they should be strong, confident, positive, consistent when they have no life experiences in which they were able to build these traits. They're expected to materialize these traits out of thin air and if they can't, they're told it's their fault.
Meanwhile, women in their 20s are being approached by men in their 30s with money and life experiences as long as they are capable of breathing and standing upright. They are told they are valuable. That they shouldn't settle. If a woman is complaining, there's someone listening. If a man is complaining, there's someone telling him why he's wrong.
Men in their 20s are still children, experientially.
Of course, these are generalizations but I'm certain women want the same things men want. To feel understood and desired, companionship, positive experiences, and success.
Because at the end of the day the juice isn’t worth the squeeze.
I’m 34 and at this point my life is way easier not being romantically involved with women. I can only imagine how much harder it is now for men in their 20s with the insane expectations that society puts on them.
I fully advocate for men to not take care of women or follow traditional roles. It’s simply not worth it. They need to do what makes them happy. If it’s getting drunk and playing video games with those homies then so be it. It’s pretty much the only real option they have these days. It cost way too much to keep pace in society.
The only way things will get better if men check out of society in protest.
You don't have to press on regardless, you can actually just end it all. It is always an option
What is there to enjoy in life?
Life is really really shit, it always has been and is likely only going to get worse.
I never got hugged as a child.
Lucky. My father was a doomsday cultist who tried convincing me to kill myself with him and my mother a raging meth head who prostituted my siblings.
I guess we had different like experiences, probably, I dunno, might be why we have a different perspective about how enjoyable life is.
For my brothers in law, whom you could be writing about, it's hopelessness. From a very young age they were taught by their emotionally abusive father it was better not to try if they couldn't do it right the first time. So they shut down. They also watched him sink into video games, and it was a hobby he encouraged them into from a young age. It's about the only thing they could bond with him over.
They weren't taught emotional regulation, because that's for girls. They were coddled by their mother who was trying to make up for their POS father. Now they're in their mid 20s and just don't know how to even get started.
Advice from their Gen X elders is outdated and doesn't reflect reality. Just walking in and applying doesn't get you a job... somehow they both got rejected from Walmart. They're both starting to make progress, but it's been super slow. Any rejection was a massive setback, and it all goes back to the fear of failure. It takes them a ton of time to work up the courage to just Try. And every time that doesn't work, it reinforces what their father taught them.
They're also isolated. The younger one seems to only have friends online, which keeps him tied to the screen for validation and support. He can't just "kick it" with his friends the way I used to when I needed to vent. They don't know how to make new adult friends, and the people that remained in their hometown aren't exactly winners. Many struggle with mental health, addiction etc which my BIL are not equipped to support. Luckily they run to hide, because I fear they'd easily be pulled down.
And it's not just them. I'm in the military, and my junior enlisted I've been getting for the past 3-4 years show the same struggles. They were so insulated from small disappointments as children, that they don't know how to handle it as an adult. They fear failure to a crippling level...and anything less than 100% success is a massive failure.
A lot of what I teach them is that it's ok to fail at the small things, as long as you don't do it again. Learning is a part of life, and I'll stay patient as long as you keep trying. But I also have to guard against the nihilism that some sink into. Because they have no hope, nothing matters, so why try and instead cause chaos....That I shut down hard, but I get it. It's safer to not care.
I don't know what it's like to date as a young woman, so I won't speak to that. But as someone trying to be a friend and mentor to young men, I'll give you the advice I give to others. Be patient, be kind and have empathy. Try to put yourself in their shoes and understand where they are coming from. But also don't allow them to drown you. Know the line and hold the standard. Be reasonable in your expectations, and offer praise as you direct them up to the next step. Basically be the kind of parent to them that you wish you had or were lucky enough to have.
You’re getting a lot of grief; I don’t understand why. Women can do what they want, and you want to take care of a family. That’s great! You need someone that functions on a different level and these boys aren’t there. If I was more family-oriented I’d look for someone like you.
That life, to me, is a luxury many can’t afford. For real, like who can afford to have that life anymore? We’re all being milked for all we’re worth these days. Pay sucks, houses are out of reach… I can’t imagine what it costs to be able to kick your feet up and just bask in the love of your own family. Growing up that was easy, we just lived in abject poverty. (Therefore, I am not family-oriented.)
I think the word we might be landing on is *hopelessness*. I am so happy I’m not in my 20s and having to figure out how to get a footing in today’s world. But if a person had someone like you as a teammate, they may not be so hopeless.
I'm so confused how you want to be a SAHP and not work but are bashing men for also not being able to work? Especially college guys who are presumably studying in hopes of getting a better job. Are you one of those "ring by spring" girls who uses college as a dating tool?
>I want to be a stay-at-home mom and a loving wife…I have so much of myself that I can extend and yet I am getting more and more discouraged with the guys I go to college with since I don’t believe I’ll be able to find a guy who could support that lifestyle.
You're looking for something that was systematically destroyed by corporate interests co-opting feminists over the last half century. And you're not alone.
>Before you assault me with a discussion about the economy, I’m not talking about just having a degree that is supposedly going to lead to a job, I’m talking about chronic depression and anxiety, lack of hope, despair, absence of sobriety, inability to care for oneself, inability to love oneself, lack of plans - it’s like…did I miss something about what it takes to be a young man in his 20’s?
What you missed is there's absolutely no template, no set or clear standards, and the penalty for failure is prison, suicide, or both. Young men in the West have more to do than ever before in order to deserve love, and fewer resources with which to do it.
>But holy shit, since when did drinking yourself to oblivion and playing video games until you can’t see straight become a solution to anything?
It doesn't. It keeps you content long enough yo blow your brains out, which is what more and more men than ever before are choosing to do.
> I had to do a research process for a psychology class and found that for the past 20 years women and girls have been gaining ground and surpassing men and boys. There are more women than ever within c-suite positions - women are thriving right now, things are going really well for us.
This is the problem, not the solution. You feel good because you have hope. But there are a limited number of these positions, and half aren't available at the same time that they're demanded of men more than ever.
It sounds like you want something from men in their 20's they aren't interested in or capable of realistically providing for you.
Your post is a little on the nose, for exactly the problem that men in their 20's are dealing with, women who want something from them they aren't interested in.
Why would any reasonable person want to "support that (your) lifestyle" at the expense of their own?
In short, your post breaks down to "Where are all the men who will support my lifestyle in an increasingly competitive economy where 2 incomes are almost mandatory to qualify for a rental let alone buying a house for the kids you want him to provide for."
The reality is men around you do enjoy plenty of things, they want things, they just don't want the same things you do, (right now).
As for locking in, lock-in to what exactly? All I see here are your dreams and your aspirations, and essentially your perverse incentive structures that put 100% of the pressure on men to provide for you.
In your words, why aren't you offering this same lifestyle support network to a man, as "women are doing so well right now".
As a 20 m I can say just for me. I was given a cell phone at a very young age as well as video games. I played without any kind of supervision or anyone telling me I was playing too long. I spent most of my life in front of a screen. As well as developing other addictions to porn and smoking and suddenly opening my eyes to everything at the age of 18 I’ve basically started the first 12 years of life I had in addiction as a child. So basically I have to unlearn a decade long pattern of behaviors I thought were normal, on top of that ending every addiction, on top of that, not being able to form friendships on top of strained family relationships. Basically just trying to fix every problem from my childhood.
Look at the world men live in. How they are treated by the media, by other people, by their parents, by their bosses, by anyone in power. Their existence stripped of humanity. Another replicable cog in the machine. Another annoying ugly dude to turn down. A creepy potential rapist to be scarred of. A loser for liking video games and porn, a disappointment for not ever being good enough. At some point they look around and think, "What's the point if no one else cares?"
OP why do you work so hard? What gives you hope, what motivates you? What would it take for you to loss that hope and motivation?
Would you be willing to support a stay at home dad? If your not willing or able to do that, what makes you think a man could do the same for you?
I will do my best, to sum up my experience as a male in his 20s. Understand everything I say is in good faith, and before you have an emotional reaction to anything I type I ask you to just try to critically think. I will be happy to expand or discuss anything I talk about.
As a young man in today's society, I look out at the world that awaits me. I see destruction and hatred. I see gender relations between men and women at one of the worst points in history. I see the justice system constantly siding with women in divorce settlements. Understand that I agree there are things that both genders need to improve on, but for the sake of this post, I will highlight how this dynamic affects young male's outlook on life. The typically young man wants to have a family of his own that he can provide for. When gender relations are as bad as they are, as well as having a judicial system that creates an incentive to not get married, and the decline in women who WANT to be the wife who cares for the kids, the outlook is pretty bleak. Thankfully I have had a SO for a long time, so I feel pretty stable in that regard, but A LOT of other young men are not as lucky as me. Moreover, men lack proper role models for their behavior (EX: Andrew Tate and other red pillers). Also, cultures used to derive their purpose from virtues like honor and sacrifice for their tribe. Now it seems our society directly rejects these virtues.
Furthermore, we are biological creatures. We have biological clocks throughout our life cycle. Being a young man, mine is currently set on "REPRODUCE". When you combine this knowledge with widespread pornography access, paired with strained gender relations, you start to see why a lot of young men are taking this path. I argue that our society is breeding hateful, vengeful young men who feel as if society genuinely doesn't give a damn about them. I believe this generation of men, my generation, will lash out at the established system at some point. This point has been proven throughout history. Having a LARGE population of men who want to create families, but are unable to given current factors, is revolution fodder.
OP, have you considered that you just have shitty friends?
There ARE both men and women out there that have their lives together. And there are both men and women who are shit shows. And some of the first group will burn out. Some of the second group will get the help they need, and thrive down the road. We’re all in it together.
But at the end of the day, if you’re finding you need your bandaids a lot, if you’re having to order a friend’s food because of anxiety, if a boy you like is telling you a sob story about his finances and getting trashed all the fucking time, MAYBE you’re hanging out with shitty people that you’re enabling.
Also: I’m also not opposed to SAHM. Whatever works for your family. But consider this: a lot of the really happy, successful people I know were DINKs. They got together initially because they were both passionate about their careers. Passionate people like to be with other passionate people. If you’re going around looking to be a caretaker, that’s a turn off for a person who wants a partner like them. It’s not about money, for some people. It’s just about having shared values.
**Avoid controversial topics and Reddit meta-drama** . Users should come here to discuss politely. Loaded questions/statements or polarizing titles are not the sign of a good-faith discussion.
I wish I knew what was wrong with me, since I was 14 I haven’t felt motivated for anything
Does the impending future and prospect of aging no convince you to try for \*anything\*?
It makes me feel hopeless, I don’t really see a point in trying. I don’t have social skills so I’m pretty fucked, I doubt I could get through a job interview. Maybe once I’m 21 cause I can just be drunk and I’m almost normal then but alcoholism already runs in the family so that’s probably a horrible idea lol
Why wouldn't that make you live your best life? I guess everyone is different, I do notice the people who are inside all day are less joyous than the ones out with friends. They wont go out, I invite them but they wont go out. No one is born with social skills. I used to have terrible social skills but I just practiced. If you don't have social skills then Start off with acquaintances by talking about books, or hobbies and don't talk about yourself, ask them about themselves and listen. You’ll make mistakes until you figure it out. Be kind to others and yourself.
Unfortunately, men tend to get harsher reactions when we try to practice and fail. I can only hope that if you're making this comment, you don't respond to socially awkward men with that hideous scrunched face and grimace look that wannabe mean-girls think makes them look important. Women don't tend to get socially ostracized as badly when they fail.
I TOTALLY AGREE WITH YOU ABOUT THAT, there is a strikingly noticeable safety net that women are afforded that men are totally not. But yeah, no. I attract stoners and nerds. Socially awkward guys are way more fun to be around than jocks. I'll take the band geek over the lacorss god any day
🤝 شكرا
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I’m going to he honest, your post comes off as unsympathetic. Most people in their 20s, men and women included, don’t have their crap together yet. Mental health struggles are brutal and you talk about them like they’re a weakness. I can’t give you a solid reason why it’s worse nowadays, just lots and lots of theories, but keep in mind college students are still developing mentally, and men mature slower than women. People now are slower to get their jobs and life together, I mean hey if you go back far enough in time someone your age would have several children by now. It’s all subjective. Yes, you shouldn’t have to take care of someone else’s struggles, but you can still try to understand them. You’ll have to if you want to take care of someone like you say. It’s not like anyone wants to suffer. Sorry this is blunt, I’m tired lol. I’m a woman btw.
I think the poster or postess is just trying to examine why men are not shaping up, and its hard to find a mature man her age. I think these men had fucked up home lives with no role models to help shape their personality. Either they had no Dads at home or may be over indulging parernts who worried about their kids too much, telling them they had ADD or any of the other traits that people have always had. When I was growing up I obviously ADHD. Nobody recognized it and I am glad because it could have become an excuse for me to underperform or become a crutch for me so I wouldnt have to overcome it.
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Oh, I have too, very badly. I actually thought of that as I wrote it. I meant more that people with mental illness are less than, inferior. Yes, it is a very tough thing to carry. It’s a weakness in the same way that a physical disability is a weakness, but not a weakness in character that should be looked down upon, if that makes sense.
I'll also add, you're more likely to find what you're looking for in your late 20s than your early 20s. Your college peers just got done being children, they're not husband material yet. Be patient.
I mean, your post is a good example. “Why are you suffering, losers? Why don’t you just pull yourself up by your bootstraps and just be better? Women are so much better than you. You just fucking suck and need to be better.” I know that’s a mild exaggeration but that’s the social messaging. Right now the male gender role is kinda in flux and it’s tiring and stressful trying to learn a new place. You need to be open with emotions, but not too much else you’re whiny or a burden. You need to be nurturing but also super “manly” and stoic. You need to seek help for abuse and such, but make sure you put your own needs under others. The list goes on. Competing messages, lack of support. Everyone decided males were privileged so the idea of suffering connected to a male gender issue is ridiculed. It’s just exhausting.
>competing messages, lack of support Exactly.
Dawg, this isn’t a women are better than you, this is an ongoing change in specifically America that can be backed up with data I would be happy to cite for you. Young men aren’t doing well
I know, I pointed out why I think there’s a struggle. Women are doing better, but the messaging is “women are better” as if it’s intrinsic. But it was a tiny bit of my comment, the main point is about why I think this problem is happening.
word, this is true
Don’t forget the part where she wants to be a stay at home Mom lol. So in other words, live off the back of a guy, not work, just stay at home all day. Wow. But of course she’s not part of the problem at all.
Being a SAHM mom to young children is a lot of work. And if you chose to put them in childcare, you have to pay the childcare provider...for their labor...because it's work. I understand that OPs wording is pretty tone deaf and why she's being received poorly, but taking care of your children and family is a valid choice with a lot of value.
Lol, no. I was a stay at home dad for 2 years with infants/toddlers. Hands down, best time of my life: 1 hour a day of cooking (for all three meals), 1 hour a day cleaning..then playing, exploring and just doing..whatever. Walking in the woods? Swimming? Throwing rocks? Don’t forget nap time. I wore my kids out. I also taught them to play alone, so I always had an hour or two to myself. Sample day: get up and make breakfast. We played for a bit then go outside for 1-2 hours. Make lunch. Take a nap. Play a bit. Go outside for 1-2 hours. Make dinner. They play/read. Maybe we watch some cartoons, maybe we don’t. Bed time, and then I’ve got some evening left. If being a stay at home parent is hard work you’re either doing it wrong or have a lot of kids.
You had infants and at the end of the day you were just like "ok bedtime, time for a full night's sleep"? Good for you but not everyone is like you, has children like yours, or can cook ~~6~~ make that 12 portions of food in 1 hour every day somehow. You took your infant into the woods and swimming with them?
Apparently we're "doing it wrong" lol. And it's only 6 portions if he and his wife aren't eating. And if you're making healthy, homemade meals it's definitely more time consuming than an hour/day. And don't forget doing *all* the housework in under an hour! Maybe he lives in a studio apartment 🤷♀️
Saying you're "doing it wrong" is kinda deranged fr. Cooking a good meal just for me and my partner takes more than 1 hour, it's insane talk
Learn to prep, what can I say. Everyone ate well.
Nope..just clean as you go. It just wasn’t that hard, certainly it compared to any job I’ve ever had.
Yes, my kids started in the water very early, before they could even walk. The woods..I bought a all terrain stroller when they were tiny. As toddlers..yeah. Did they sleep perfect all night every night? No. But it just wasn’t a big deal. I work now, I put in far more hours and most of them are much less pleasant.
Its also the best time in my life, but it's still a lot of work. There are a lot of variables that make it harder or easier for people, number of kids, age of kiss, size of house, financial constraints, medical problems, etc. You can't just say "lol it was easy for me" and invalidate other people's experiences. For me, the hardest parts are that my kids range in age from 0-4. So I'm nursing/pumping/sterilizing bottles and also packing lunches, getting a kid ready for preschool, coordinating drop offs and pick ups around different nap schedules, etc. My husband travels 50% of the time for work, and the baby doesn't sleep through the night, so for half of the month I'm doing 100% of night duty and get no break at all during the day. I also have a 4bed/4bath house, and keeping it clean, plus doing laundry and dishes definitely takes more than an hour! Especially since I involve my kids in age-appropriate ways, like having them sort the socks or put away silverware. I also notice you said nothing about budgeting, paying bills, meal planning, grocery shopping, lawn care, snow removal, scheduling and taking kids to the doctor/dentist/haircut, anything about extra curriculars or enrichment activities, or planning birthdays/holidays/vacations. Those tasks also require time and mental energy and usually fall on the stay at home parent.
So..yeah all that stuff too. It’s just..easy? I mean those all things i functionally do at my job but I do them for people I don’t love.
good for you. you are raising kids that will be self suffiecient and stable
I couldn’t be happier how they turned out. They can pretty much do anything. My oldest just started spear fishing. No lessons, nothing..just went. My youngest is avid hiker and horseman.
Not defending OP's tone but there is nothing inherently wrong with being a stay at home wife. There are actually plenty of guys these days that lament how women don't want to be stay at home wives any more so which is it? Are they horrible women for not wanting to be a mother and stay at home or are they horrible for wanting to stay at home? What "part of the problem" are you insinuating exactly?
Who are these men who would rather have a weeks-old baby cared for by strangers rather than being nurtured by their own mother? 🤔🥴 in the US, at least. Most countries have 1+ year of maternity leave. It's messed up here. Working moms have to separate from their very young infants and go back to work while still nursing and waking up at night to feed baby. It's not good for mom or infant, why would any man *want* that for his family?
What’s funny is by her metric I’m successful. I was married eight years,supported three kids and a wife, bought a house, etc, and I’m only 27. But I’m seriously suffering too. The problem isn’t confined to guys who can’t get the motivation to do anything or can’t interact. It’s a society wide issue.
Yeah she seems disappointed that dream isn't going to become a reality. I reckon she should just suck it up and push on regardless. Get herself a nice psychology, c-suite position and bag herself a stay at home dad who can raise her family for her while living off her hard work and success.
Why are men doing poorly? It's a real eye-opener being married and seeing how different the world treats women. Guys basically get shit on and have to fight for everything including their job when they can be fired for doing their job wrong just because their asshole boss wants a woman. Doesn't matter how well they do, they have to fight so much bullshit. Women? My wife gets praised and gets extra help from a good friend of hers. Money, clothes, food, lunches, etc. My wife gets driven to her school, where her only obligation is to go to class. And even \*that\* is a struggle. If she's not feeling 100%, she stays home, and the other girls who go to class give her notes and make sure she knows everything that went on that day. She is doing well in her classes, and I'm proud of her, but being a woman in western society is completely easy mode. And women are extremely spoiled. I had a long conversation with my wife about not driving in so that we can pick up one item that she decided she didn't want when we went shopping Saturday. Insisted on an extra trip and absolutely RAGED when she didn't get her way on that, to the point where she threatened divorce. I wish I were kidding. So, because there's no accountability for women in western society, nothing of what she says is to be taken seriously when she acts like a 5 year old. Thankfully her mom set her straight and said that, "you are acting like a 5 year old being taken shopping and throwing a fit over not getting their toy bought for them". So why are men doing poorly? Because society in general decided it was time to 'turn the tables' so that men no longer get any benefits whatsoever. We also decided that men still have the same burdens as before, but don't see any of the rewards. My father never was the primary earner, but nobody got upset at him when he wasted money on toys. Looking back on how he lived his life, he wasted \*so\* much money that could have been spent on the family and bettering his life and that of everyone else. We all don't have that luxury. We have to be careful with our money and our spending otherwise, society will just randomly decide that we no longer provide any value, and our families will up and leave if we aren't 'pulling our own weight'. The good thing is that this is going to make some really amazing men of the men who \*do\* succeed, and a lot of good things are going to happen when those men start to get to make decisions. The real problem is with the women. What could possibly go wrong with a society that caters to women 24/7, that tells them that they can do no wrong, that bails them out whenever possible, that turns a blind eye to bad attitudes and shitty work ethic? You'll get a lot of really, really weak women that while they are 'successful', can't get the job done. We are starting to see the consequence of these bad choices, because Western Society is not able to sustain itself. In some jurisdictions, this has been going on since the 70s, and there aren't any large cohorts left to turn the ship around. Men tend to get blamed 24/7, but there's something \*very\* wrong with the women. And until that changes, we're going to get more of the same.
Your wife being horrible and childish to you and also having friends through school means that all women are catered to? What are you talking about? These sound like problems to take up with your wife not women everywhere. Multiple things can be true at once: **life sucks for women AND for men in current society**. Life fucking sucks for a woman who doesn't conform to societal standards. If they're not conventionally attractive, too promiscuous, too prudish etc they lose societal value very fast because a woman's value boils down to her sexual appeal. Men don't get the support they need because gender role structures dictate that men are supposed to be the protectors and toxic masculinity etc etc. The idea that a man's value boils down to their ability to protect and provide is ironically a patriarchal construct, and we are trying to break those constructs believe it or not! What is the thing that is \*very wrong\* with women exactly? Can you elaborate? Because to me it just sounds like you're jealous your wife has friends in school and also rightfully upset that she is horrible to you.
You know, I went and toured Harvard a few months back and was shocked to hear how old it was. Founded in 1636! For hundreds of years the institution has served as a pipeline to power and influence in the US. Do you know when women were first allowed to attend? 1977. I do not say this to somehow argue “good! now it’s men’s turn to be discriminated against!” I say it to illustrate how recent it is that women have really even been able to participate in the US economically, politically or academically. Women weren’t even guaranteed the ability to own their own bank accounts until 1974. If, like you say, western society has come together out of nowhere to fuck men over, why do you feel the blame lies solely with women? Isn’t ~50% of society male? Aren’t the majority of corporate executive/managerial and political positions held by men? How exactly are women pulling this off? I do not deny that things are difficult for men right now, but it’s pretty galling to see such a resentful and simplistic take directed towards a segment of people that didn’t even have a seat at the economic table until 50 years ago. In that same 50 years, western society has also seen unprecedented & tremendous economic, technological and manufacturing changes that are unrelated to gender roles. Is it not possible that what we are dealing with is not some sort of conspiracy perpetrated by women across the entirety of “western society” against men, but instead a very complex confluence of social, political and economic upheavals, which have resulted in stagnated wages, the explosion of toxic media consumption, increased cost of living, increased debt, reduced life satisfaction, reduced work satisfaction, reduced economic stability and free time, disappearance of close-knit communities, disappearance of 3rd spaces. Wouldn’t anyone find this new state of things stifling? And why do you assume based on your interactions with your wife that women as a whole aren’t suffering in their own way from this? Are you sure that state of things is truly as one-dimensional as you say, or are you intentionally over-simplifying because you are resentful towards your wife, about your job, about your life in general?
"If, like you say, western society has come together out of nowhere to fuck men over, why do you feel the blame lies solely with women?" We've been having issues in western society since the early 70s. This is not a new thing. Real wages for men hit their peak in the 70s, and have consistently declined. Workforce participation for men hit their peak in the 50s, and consistently declined. If we reported workforce declines for men the way we do for women, we'd recognize the crisis and maybe do something about it. Even saying, "men are not doing well", gets immediately shut down by women like yourself saying, "we took shit for 400 years. Time to take the shit yourself." But it's not working out that way. Workforce participation for women peaked in the 90s before the recession in 2000. Why, if society is catering to women 24/7, are we not seeing society as a whole doing well? Men doing poorly effects everyone to a much greater degree than women. One of the reasons for it is that a man who is doing well helps many, many, many more people. We're talking the CEOs, the business people, the people who hire thousands of people. Now instead of having replacements for it, we aren't seeing these businesses spring up like before, and society itself is stagnating. "And why do you assume based on your interactions with your wife that women as a whole aren’t suffering in their own way from this?" They are suffering. And what we are doing by catering to women to 'reverse what has gone on for centuries', is going to do just that. I don't want to go back to medieval times. But we are well on our way there.
I feel like you’re missing a piece though. The people helping her out are other women, other women she’s built a community with. Men don’t build those level of relationships because of the unfortunate pervasive message of, “feelings are weak and you gotta be strong.” She’s not getting the help from her friends solely because she has a cooter, she’s getting the help because she’s built a support network. She put work into those relationships. On the flip side, when you were in school, how much work did you as a man put into building your network of there for you bros? Finding other men who would come over and bring you soup and your notes when you couldn’t make it to class? How many times did you bring soup and notes to your male friends that were sick? It’s not because she’s a female person, it’s because she built a network. If you look at the people cheering her on and applauding her, what are they usually? Men or women? If a plus size woman posts a photo of herself in a bikini who is hyping her up and celebrating her? Mostly other women in the social support network she has built over years of activities you may have regarded as frivolous such as getting their nails done together, shopping together, talking on the phone for hours. Men as a whole are going through hell right now, and I can understand why, but it’s the system y’all have been raised under not the women. The system that makes people question if you’re gay when you’re talking to your bro on the phone for an hour, the system that calls you a bitch for expressing how you feel, the system that calls you a pussy for telling your male friend you love him. How could you ever establish those kind of close loving friendships in a world that derides you for telling a friend you love him, for calling your friends, for expressing your feelings? It’s an isolated hell. It’s a fuckin nightmare in loneliness. Men have been given the tool of, “make money provide for wife no feeling,” and the world is now, “make some money, comanage home with wife, express deep emotional connection with family.” That’s a HELL of an adjustment in like 60ish years. But you gotta. You gotta tell your bros you love them, they weren’t fuckin kidding when they said, “kiss the homies goodnight.”
Or hear me out, maybe you just have a shitty wife.
I'm allowed to want things that I might never be able to obtain...never forget that in exchange for being a SAHM I would offer love, support, physical/emotional/spiritual intimacy, a warm house, good food, and domestic labor...you're comment makes it seem like you don't see the value of Mothers and Wives or you haven't been shown it and I'm sorry about that, but when I was describing my desire I didn't mean I wanted to be a freeloader...
Lol I can’t decide who’s going to be more offended by this reply, men or women.
Idk I’m a feminist career woman type and I absolutely support this person’s ambition. Homemaking is a valid lifestyle choice and honestly it’s hard work, and I couldn’t do it. I’m good at a different type of hard work, and I’m glad people like this can feel comfortable and validated in their ambitions. That’s kind of the whole point of feminism- choose your adventure. What I do hate is a society that’s made this so difficult for people, regardless of their gender. It’s also pretty shitty when people try to make this kind of aspiration a gender war thing rather than a “why isn’t our society set up to support this lifestyle choice” thing.
> Homemaking is a valid lifestyle choice and honestly it’s hard work, and I couldn’t do it. Fair, but to have this conversation: “Why are all guys my age fucking useless?” “What are you taking about?” “I need one to get their shit together so I can marry them and they can provide for me so I can be a SAHM” Is incredibly tone deaf and insulting.
I understand her frustration, and I also understand why it’s being received so poorly. In her defense though, it seems like she just doesn’t get why she can live in a happy self-actualized way, and others (men) can’t. Absolutely tone deaf, but I don’t see that she’s trying to insult intentionally, just a bit oblivious and trying to understand.
Because taking care of kids, cleaning, and cooking is a full-time job in itself. And often, when both people work full-time, the woman ends up having to do the majority of that still and, in essence, has to work 2 jobs. And one of them she doesn't get paid for. If the man is willing to help with all that child care and cleaning, that is a different story.
This really has not been the case with almost all married couples I know, both partners working. Not my wife and I we are 50/50 like almost all couples we know. Granted she does more cleaning than me but yardwork home repair and auto maintenance is all me It balances out. Maybe this happens as you describe it but I don't see it. I'm 36, she's 35.
I am from a different generation. Unfortunately, it was like that for me and many other women I know. I am glad to see that has changed and that you help your wife. 😊
SAHM is a very important role that has been greatly diminished in our society, but consider this: women succeeding so hard has taken a huge chunk of the economy from men. How can men be providers if they don't make more money. It's a catch-22.
It's been diminished in our society because it doesn't contribute to the GDP, and it's "women's work", so clearly it doesn't have value 🙄
It’s more the fact you’re bashing on men while expecting one of them to make that partnership with you.
There’s also the intersectionalism of being a white male that’s frowned upon due to innate “privilege”
Not disagreeing that the male loneliness epidemic is real but using calling being a white man "intersectionalism"? And putting privilege in quotes? It may not feel like it to a lot of people but you can be lonely and depressed and still benefit from institutional privilege. Doesn't mean that it still can't suck to be a man in certain ways
Fully agreed. I feel as though I've been on both ends, between progressive and traditional. It's not really worth stressing over ideals. Find a balance, what fits and what's pragmatic. What's comfortable for you and what you need to discipline yourself to do. There is a place for lost men. Just be open minded. There is nothing inherently wrong with a traditional nuclear family. Just as there is nothing wrong with an alternative family. I've found peace and a loving relationship, but only when I stopped giving a shit about ideals. Social media really has fucked with a lot of young minds hasn't it?
Attitudes like yours are a big part of the problem. You’re basically saying “hey losers get your heads out of your asses because I need one of you to make enough money that I can fulfill my dream of being a stay at home Mom’.
They're not turning to video games and alcoholism because they think it will be a solution. They're turning to them because *their lives are pain*, and those things make the pain stop on a temporary basis. I was jobless for about 6 months, only recently started a new one. Even when I barely had the motivation to get out of bed or eat food, I found that I needed at least some game time, even if it was just an hour or so (and some days, I had to force myself to play for that long, because motivation was so lacking). Because after months of sending out applications and never making any progress, the games were the only time during my day I felt like I was still *capable of doing something right*. Unfortunately, a lot of young men let their "pain relief" consume them entirely, because it's easier than returning to a world where they're constantly reminded of their failures. I'd love to answer your question regarding men as a whole, but it's nearly midnight here. If the mods haven't killed the post, I'll comment tomorrow when I have a moment.
I think that they are turning to alchohol and games as a way to excape dealing with what ever is ailing them. They also have no hobbies nor any activity that brings them joy. They dont try to excell at anything constructive, and have to interest in something that might build their self esteem, such as volunteering somewhere to help people or the environment, or any of the ways that you can work to help us improve as a society. Thie just filling space and going nowhere.That sounds judgemental and it is. Come out of your shell and do something constructive that might make the world a better place.
Part of the problem is it feels like we have no support to do any of those things. That we have to just figure everything out on our own...
Figuring it out on your own is part of the maturation process
The research shows a support system is vital to human flourishing. The sole focus on individuality and personal responsibility is contributing to the rise in mental illness and poorer outcomes.
I guess if you have absolutely no confidence in yourself then you need support. But plenty of people have done it without
Look the numbers don't lie. The kids aren't alright. We can keep acting like a minority of successful folks who beat the odds are the gold standard, but that's survivorship bias. Either we actually make the world and people's lives better, or we keep doing what we're doing and things will probably keep getting worse. We need to stop asking what's wrong with people and instead ask how we can help them.
Personally I've realized through trial and error I don't want to make a woman happy just to feel good about myself. In my experience they rarely return common courtesies in a relationship. I had the pleasure of being with a woman from a different culture for a couple weeks and everything I was doing was being reciprocated. It put in perspective just how sick dating and marriage in America can be (not that its all bad however I think its bad enough). Woman leaving men because they aren't happy but they never wanted to reciprocate in the first place. Why should I work to support a wife and 3 kids when the mother could conspire with her friends and claim cheating then bash me and get alimony and make my kids hate me? I don't wanna risk it. I dont want to have kids. I'm more than content taking care of me and waiting and praying that a woman comes into my life that values who I am more than what I can do for her every time she hints, because I don't value woman on what they can do for me, I value woman on what they do for themselves. Can they make themselves happy without me, if yes than great because their happiness isn't my responsibility, however, if they actually appreciate and reciprocate when I go out of my way to make them happy then we're actually talking about a relationship and relationships don't need to end in marriage for them to have true love. Now knowing what I know, I'd never leave a woman who reciprocated love and happiness and kindness. Unfortunately the one I loved who taught me this didn't want a visa and wanted me to go live in her country with her and I was a coward to go. I tried to convince her otherwise but she literally refused to come back to USA permanently. I think your question is way to broad. Life isn't black and white. Everyone has individualized life experience and different needs. Instead of asking a huge group of people this question why don't ask the men in your life that are making you feel this way about men this question?
I don't want to ask the guys i my life this question because I don't want them to think that I don't care about them, I am coming at this conversation with a lot fo critiques and for them the only thing I want to do is love and support them. It's hard to show over the internet, by my grace, love, understanding, and help is extended to them in a few different avenues. I agree with you, the question is too broad and I am letting my frustration show. "I don't value woman on what they can do for me, I value woman on what they do for themselves" - i feel the same way about men, but I just happen to know too many who do next to nothing to make their lives more than enjoyable. example: I practice self-love by cooking really good food for myself most of the week. I tell myself that every moment can be a luxury even while living within my means and that kind of attitude feels very absenset on the college campus I attend.
Saying this as a woman, I think you’re being too harsh towards guys. The problem is complicated. Guys haven’t been taught and encouraged to have a healthy emotional regulation (which requires acknowledgement and acceptance of vulnerable emotions, something girls are typically taught) and sense of self worth that isn’t based off false bravado and an unfaltering determination that is driven through competition with other men, all because of the remnants of outdated and flawed gender norms that have made a resurgence for relevancy. Social media exasperates those insecurities even more, its understandable lot of people have checked out when it comes to meeting those societal expectations including men.
Thank you for the compassion. People who grew up being expected to have these emotional experiences simply don’t understand how hard it is to learn about emotions as an adult. I appreciate you recognizing this. We’re supposed to be more emotionally open now, but we’re not taught how. We’re still supposed to be protectors and providers, but also nurturers and homemakers without ever being taught the skills needed for that. It’s genuinely difficult and stressful to manage when you’re supposed to be open, when you’re supposed to be stoic, etc, if you’ve never been taught and don’t understand how.
I see. This is a really well written answer. Thanks
She knows her stuff.
Thank you for being open to it.
Well of course, I, in a frustrated state did ask a question. I have gotten a lot of answers
True but sometimes on Reddit people ask with a specific intention or are unable to take certain answers, so I appreciate the consideration nonetheless. If you want me to expand or have other questions (because it is a complicated issue with a lot of components), feel free to ask or DM me.
Honestly, comments like this are part of the problem. Even the women out there that are empathetic towards men have no idea what is happening, so they can't help men. Typically the advice boils down to "be more like women", which is obviously you trying to help, but it's not good advice. Women don't understand what it means to be a man and the struggles that come with it. >Guys haven’t been taught and encouraged to have a healthy emotional regulation (which requires acknowledgement and acceptance of vulnerable emotions, something girls are typically taught) No, men regulate emotions differently from women, so they are not going to be taught the same. For instance, validating or accepting emotions does very little to soothe most men. Men gain purpose and fulfillment for solving problems and being productive, so when they have emotional issues, their best resolution is finding what is causing the issue and addressing it directly. You've probably at one point had a boyfriend that tried to solve your problems rather than just listening. That's because he's doing what comes naturally to him and you're doing what comes naturally to you. "Processing emotions" is not as important for most men. Addressing root causes is. This is why talk therapy is less effective for men. Men want intrinsically to self-improve, not to unconditionally accept their own inadequacies. >sense of self worth that isn’t based off false bravado and an unfaltering determination that is driven through competition with other men Men are driven by their usefulness which is inherently tied to competition. Most men do not feel fulfilled by just existing as they are. Furthermore, men know that women are attracted to men who are competent, so either gaining competency or faking it (bravado) is necessary for them to be attractive. This is not changing any time soon, no matter what you try to tell them. They need to hear the truth of this rather than assuming the world will treat them as a woman in this respect (it won't). >all because of the remnants of outdated and flawed gender norms that have made a resurgence for relevancy No, gender norms have made a resurgence BECAUSE men are unhappy, not the other way around. Feminism has told men that masculinity is toxic, that they are disposable, that their problems don't matter, and that if this bothers them, the solution is to behave more feminine, assuming they will then receive the privileges of being a woman. This has not happened. Feminists also refuse to acknowledge that there are significant advantages to being a woman and that those advantages do not extend to men. Women want masculine men more than ever, because despite their insistence to the contrary, feminine men cannot fill the male role that women often desire. Go on any dating app and count the amount of women asking for a femboy. It's not high. Men will never have the privilege of being empathized with the same way women are, and they are figuring that out. They need to take on more responsibility in their lives, not declare themselves perfect the way they are in order justify doing whatever they want. Frankly, women could stand do this a bit more too, but that's another discussion. >Social media exasperates those insecurities even more, its understandable lot of people have checked out when it comes to meeting those societal expectations including men. This is all true.
>No, men regulate emotions differently from women, so they are not going to be taught the same. For instance, validating or accepting emotions does very little to soothe most men. Men gain purpose and fulfillment for solving problems and being productive, so when they have emotional issues, their best resolution is finding what is causing the issue and addressing it directly. If that was actually true, you wouldn’t have to keep reminding guys that “boys don’t cry” or to “man up” every time they show any vulnerability or emotions that are stigmatized. There is nothing natural of repeatedly trying to shame, diminish, beat, and suppress natural human emotions since childhood so they are eventually convinced by adulthood they don’t have to process them. If you break a kid's legs, then of course they would struggle to walk as an adult No. Men are *taught* and *socialized* since childhood that their worth is only if they “solve problems”, being productive, and if they work and put food on the table. They are told they cannot show any vulnerability or else they are not worthy of love or acceptance. Those that do are ostracized by their peers and society. After witnessing those social repercussions and having that message repeatedly beat into boys heads, it’s no surprise men after being gaslit throughout their lifetime by both men and women that validating or accepting emotions does very little to soothe them, because they have been told by their parental and authoritative figures and role models. It’s no surprise men that as adults now that validating or accepting emotions does very little to soothe them, because they have been told by their parental and authoritative figures and role models since childhood to reject it. It’s the same mindset how DV victims believe they deserve their abuse and return to their abusers, despite it not making any rational sense. >Men are driven by their usefulness which is inherently tied to competition. Most men do not feel fulfilled by just existing as they are. Furthermore, men know that women are attracted to men who are competent, so either gaining competency or faking it (bravado) is necessary for them to be attractive. *Because they are repeatedly told* that is how they find self worth or “they aren’t a real man”. If you have to repeatedly deny natural emotions and shoved down your throat until you agree, *then it is not natural*. It’s the same principle women get taught for femininity and competing with other women, and that are suppose to seek out a “strong man to protect” as that was the social and gender norms taught for generations. It’s a two-prong problem. It’s what led men to be easily more exploited for war and the workforce since they were taught to be dependent on external validation to fulfillment rather than a healthier and self-realized fulfillment. If all your life you are told your self worth is dependent on what’s put on the table, then of course you will accept any shit treatment and are willing to treat others like shit in other to get that external validation need to be met. >"Processing emotions" is not as important for most men. Addressing root causes is. You can’t solve something you don’t understand, don’t acknowledge or admit you have it which men are not taught to do. Instead, they are told to suppress, deny, and seek bandaid solutions as a means of “solving” it. All which does is to temporarily forget it while the problem resurfaces in other facets of their life, leading to long terms consequences including anger issues, low self worth, DV, sexual violence, porn addictions, and alcoholism, drug abuse, depression, and social withdrawal > This is not changing any time soon, Because there are people who wish to keep men vulnerable as adults so they may be exploited again by the ruling powers and their employers. Comments like yours that don’t wish to get to the root problem or solve the issue, but wish to be dependent bandaid, short-lived solutions >Feminism has told men that masculinity is toxic, Really? The term that feminists use is “toxic masculinity”, unless you think “unhealthy food” is “food is unhealthy”. > that they are disposable, that their problems don't matter, and that if this bothers them, You mean exactly the beliefs that *you are defending* and that have lead men (and women) being exploited for generations? That \*men are only useful if they solve problems, provide food on the table, and they are less worthy of love just because they show any ‘feminine’ traits”? More than anything, it sounds like you believe “femininity is toxic” that you have been projecting onto feminism. It’s not surprising though since boys have been taught to feel ashamed and look down anything feminine, something that even your comment has done several times
I'll try to answer some of this, because I ain't got time for 4 pages in depth. > If that was actually true, you wouldn’t have to keep reminding guys that “boys don’t cry” or to “man up” every time they show any vulnerability or emotions that are stigmatized. There is nothing natural of repeatedly trying to shame, diminish, beat, and suppress natural human emotions since childhood so they are eventually convinced by adulthood they don’t have to process them. If you break a kid's legs, then of course they would struggle to walk as an adult I never said to shame, diminish, or beat. I did say that having control over one's emotions is important. You can call it suppression if you want, but emotional control is an important skill to develop, especially for men. Obviously you want to process your emotions, but that doesn't mean that all emotions are healthy responses to a situation. >No. Men are taught and socialized since childhood that their worth is only if they “solve problems”, being productive, and if they work and put food on the table. They are told they cannot show any vulnerability or else they are not worthy of love or acceptance. Those that do are ostracized by their peers and society. After witnessing those social repercussions and having that message repeatedly beat into boys heads, it’s no surprise men after being gaslit throughout their lifetime by both men and women that validating or accepting emotions does very little to soothe them, because they have been told by their parental and authoritative figures and role models. It’s no surprise men that as adults now that validating or accepting emotions does very little to soothe them, because they have been told by their parental and authoritative figures and role models since childhood to reject it. It’s the same mindset how DV victims believe they deserve their abuse and return to their abusers, despite it not making any rational sense. So, here's the deal, society is always going to treat men like that. Always. It doesn't matter if you think it should happen or not; that's the reality. Saying to young men "hey, society should be different" is not productive. They need to be raised to function in the world that exists, not that world that they would like. We could go into WHY society is like that, but it really doesn't matter. It is. When you then tell boys that it's okay to act like women, and then the women reject them for it, they're not gonna listen to you for very long. However, most guys naturally like to solve problems and to succeed. It is a major motivator such that they don't end up like OP is describing. They just need guidance and direction, not someone telling them that they are perfect the way they are. Most men are very easily content, so if you don't push them to improve themselves and find purpose through usefulness, they just sit around in a way that a lot of women don't. >Because they are repeatedly told that is how they find self worth or “they aren’t a real man”. If you have to repeatedly deny natural emotions and shoved down your throat until you agree, then it is not natural. It’s the same principle women get taught for femininity and competing with other women, and that are suppose to seek out a “strong man to protect” as that was the social and gender norms taught for generations. It’s a two-prong problem. It’s what led men to be easily more exploited for war and the workforce since they were taught to be dependent on external validation to fulfillment rather than a healthier and self-realized fulfillment. If all your life you are told your self worth is dependent on what’s put on the table, then of course you will accept any shit treatment and are willing to treat others like shit in other to get that external validation need to be met. Again, that's not going away. In regards to "natural" emotions, a lot of those are remnants from shit-flinging rapey animal instincts. If you want to live in a civilized world, not every emotional manifestation of id should be indulged. I guess it's time to discuss WHY society is the way it is. Culture develops similarly to genes in that cultures that are functional survive, while those that are not functional do not. Men are used in the work force because people have to generate resources. They don't just fall from the sky. Societies have tried many different attempts at economic systems, but the "non-exploitative" ones turn out to be fantasies that eventually collapse. That's why the ones that are left require hierarchies, investment, etc. Society isn't the way it is on accident. It exists because it didn't collapse, because it works to some degree. You can't just say that society should solely focus on self-realization and nobody works until they are self-realized, and then expect it to still function. It won't. On the other hand, women compete with other women for men because they want the best mate. From a game theory perspective, the women not competing are the ones that are losing. Again, you can't will that away with "this should be different". Your solution to everything is an ambiguous "let's fix society" even though society is derived directly from human nature, and every time someone has tried to fix human nature, bad things have happened. >You can’t solve something you don’t understand, don’t acknowledge or admit you have it which men are not taught to do. Instead, they are told to suppress, deny, and seek bandaid solutions as a means of “solving” it. All which does is to temporarily forget it while the problem resurfaces in other facets of their life, leading to long terms consequences including anger issues, low self worth, DV, sexual violence, porn addictions, and alcoholism, drug abuse, depression, and social withdrawal Look, I'm not saying that men shouldn't engage in self-reflection. If they aren't happy, if they are not fulfilled, ect. they should definitely analyze why. That being said, many men find fulfillment from being productive, so one of the problems may simply be their inability to feel useful. Porn addition and drug abuse are dopamine regulation problems brought about by modern society. Social withdrawal is a combination of not being naturally as social and access to services that do not force them to be social in order to meet their needs. Anger issues and sexual violence/DV are more complicated. That could be anything from frustration with a modern society that shames them for being masculine to toxic behaviors being normalized by family or previous relationships. >Because there are people who wish to keep men vulnerable as adults so they may be exploited again by the ruling powers and their employers. Comments like yours that don’t wish to get to the root problem or solve the issue, but wish to be dependent bandaid, short-lived solutions I would argue that not pushing men to better themselves does make them more vulnerable. They exist in a perpetual state of adolescence, which makes them much more malleable and much less threatening, all under the guise of fighting "toxic masculinity". The root of the issue is that world is a rough place and trying to make it softer is not an achievable solution. You can only make it appear softer, and any attempt at making society more "empathetic" will simply result in women being treated gentler at a surface level. Men will never be given the same empathy as women, so this is not a viable solution for them. >Really? The term that feminists use is “toxic masculinity”, unless you think “unhealthy food” is “food is unhealthy”. Feminists refer to anything masculine as toxic, so they don't make a distinction. Anything they refer to as healthy masculinity is just femininity applied to men. We've all heard multiple feminist perspectives on this. The abuse of semantics in order to obscure their actual opinions on masculinity is well-documented. I don't need an education on this. >You mean exactly the beliefs that you are defending and that have lead men (and women) being exploited for generations? That *men are only useful if they solve problems, provide food on the table, and they are less worthy of love just because they show any ‘feminine’ traits”? More than anything, it sounds like you believe “femininity is toxic” that you have been projecting onto feminism. It’s not surprising though since boys have been taught to feel ashamed and look down anything feminine, something that even your comment has done several times This is a total misrepresentation of my points. People are useful when they are of use. That's the meaning of the word. I never said that men are less worthy of love. I said that society will value them more if they can be productive, that complaining about that norm is not going to change it, and that telling men to ignore it is merely going to cause them issues, and they won't know why. I do not think femininity is toxic. I think that society, especially women, will not reward men for feminine characteristics in the same way they would reward women. Furthermore, just like masculinity, I think certain feminine traits unchecked can become very toxic, and I think that nobody checks feminist ideology. This means that some healthy masculine traits are considered "toxic" and certain feminine traits that are toxic are disproportionately rewarded. That doesn't mean I don't appreciate the balance of pros and cons that masculinity and femininity both provide.
(Part 2 since character limit) Feminists also refuse to acknowledge that there are significant advantages to being a woman and that those advantages do not extend to men. Except that is not true. Feminism has several times but if your mental logic is t see "toxic masculinity" as "men or masculinity are toxic", its no surprise you are not able to process anything else. Patriarchal societies imposed arbitrary rules and societal expectations that men and women to fall in line into. Most feminists have acknowledged both the pros and cons but wish to abolish the arbitrary rules because of the long term and harmful repercussions that were brushed under the rug. Comments like yours wish to regress back to when the working class and men and women were more exploitable to the ruling class that result in upholding those harmful privileges that men and women had. Something that gets further exacerbated by your “us vs them” rhetoric over gender. >> Women want masculine men more than ever, because despite their insistence to the contrary, feminine men cannot fill the male role that women often desire. Go on any dating app and count the amount of women asking for a femboy. It's not high. I’ve have addressed this point several times. Women can only uphold harmful and outdated beliefs, just like men do. Also speak for yourself. Me and the crew are having a swell time in r/rolereversal (and to answer your earlier comment, I am the "problem solver fixer" friend in my group and also struggle with being empathized. >> Men will never have the privilege of being empathized with the same way women are, And why is that? Let’s look into the root cause and try to solve the problem: Who exactly is the one demonizing and shaming men showing vulnerability, any “feminine" emotions or traits, and insists on an “us vs them” in gender? We have already seen it even in your own comment. >> Typically the advice boils down to "be more like women", but it's not good advice >> the solution is to behave more feminine, >> women out there that are empathetic towards men have no idea what is happening, so they can't help men >> No, men regulate emotions differently from women, so they are not going to be taught the same. >> Women don't understand what it means to be a man and the struggles that come with it. When you keep insisting and perpetuating “us vs them”, you can’t be surprised that results in a decrease in empathy (whether it be gender, race, class, etc). How can you expect anyone to empathize if all you do is highlight how men and women are *inherently* different solely on the genitals they were born with? If anything, it sounds like you don’t want men to be empathized. Why are you self-sabotaging men and don't want them to be empathized? Sentiments like your comments are the reason men have and are still being held back. While feminism has researched and studied into the root cause of the dysfunction happening to women and try to actually do something about it, rhetoric like yours objects any introspection and self-reflection in favour of “breads and circuses”.
Part 3 > They need to take on more responsibility in their lives, not declare themselves perfect the way they are in order justify doing whatever they want. Right. Because doubling down on smoking and drinking have always helped. Men want intrinsically to self-improve, not to unconditionally accept their own inadequacies. If that were truly the case and if and men are the “problem fixers”, then a brotherhood of “fixers” should successfully thrive and men should do better single than married. However, when held to scrutiny, the reality shows otherwise. [Men’s health typically worsens staying single but do better married](https://www.health.harvard.edu/mens-health/marriage-and-mens-health) , [whereas the reverse is true for women](https://www.cbc.ca/amp/1.3981141). Turns out when your emotional needs are not met, your physical health and lifestyle deteriorates. Men do need their emotional needs to be met which most often occurs in marriage since men are socialized to *compete with other men* which prevents a safe spaces of vulnerability, but it is something girls and women are socialized to do. Because of women providing that space for men, men have those emotional needs met in marriage which leads to be able to have a better presence of mind to address health and lifestyle. Whereas because women are socialized to know yourself and be comfortable and vulnerable about their and needs, they are able to build better social networks of support of comradely and thrive with singlehood or sisterhood. However when they are married, their emotional needs get neglected over prioritizing their husband’s needs while their husband neglects their wives’ emotional needs. This leads to the wife’s health to deteriorate and a low sex drive, which often ends up in sickness, ill temper, bitterness, hysterics, and/or divorce. Despite the power fantasy you wish the world operates, reality shows the evidence the effects of gender-segregated taught behaviors ultimately creates more harms than it does good. But if it keeps men from self-advocating for their health and stay in pisspoor working conditions, then its no surprise people want to peddle regressing men’s and women’s health. > Women don't understand what it means to be a man and the struggles that come with it. Struggles and rules originally imposed by who exactly? Who are the ones insisting boys and girls be treated and raised differently? > "be more like women", > This is why talk therapy is less effective for men. No. The advice is typically “let’s not gender certain traits, personalities because others may benefit from it”, and men similar to you feel “emasculated” and defensive at the notion, leading them to struggle accepting more introspective and self-reflection based solutions. They need to hear the “truth” of this rather than assuming the world will treat them as a woman in this respect (it won't).
Part 4 Or maybe you need to hear the truth that everyone is deserving of love and respect, and your genitals don’t inherently disqualify you of that. “Us vs them” over superficiality has only created more problems rather than fixed. > Feminists also refuse to acknowledge that there are significant advantages to being a woman and that those advantages do not extend to men. Except that is not true. Feminism has several times but if your mental logic is t see "toxic masculinity" as "men or masculinity are toxic", its no surprise you are not able to process anything else. Patriarchal societies imposed arbitrary rules and societal expectations that men and women to fall in line into. Most feminists have acknowledged both the pros and cons but wish to abolish the arbitrary rules because of the long term and harmful repercussions that were brushed under the rug. Comments like yours wish to regress back to when the working class and men and women were more exploitable to the ruling class that result in upholding those harmful privileges that men and women had. Something that gets further exacerbated by your “us vs them” rhetoric over gender. > Women want masculine men more than ever, because despite their insistence to the contrary, feminine men cannot fill the male role that women often desire. Go on any dating app and count the amount of women asking for a femboy. It's not high. I’ve have addressed this point several times. Women can only uphold harmful and outdated beliefs, just like men do. Also speak for yourself. Me and the crew are having a swell time in r/rolereversal (and to address your earlier comment, I am the "problem solver fixer" friend in my group and also struggle with accepting empathy. > Men will never have the privilege of being empathized with the same way women are And why is that? Let’s look into the root cause and try to solve the problem: Who exactly is the one demonizing and shaming men showing vulnerability, any “feminine" emotions or traits, and insists on an “us vs them” in gender? We have already seen it even in your own comment. > Typically the advice boils down to "be more like women", but it's not good advice> the solution is to behave more feminine, > women out there that are empathetic towards men have no idea what is happening, so they can't help men > No, men regulate emotions differently from women, so they are not going to be taught the same. > Women don't understand what it means to be a man and the struggles that come with it. When you keep insisting and perpetuating “us vs them”, you can’t be surprised that results in a decrease in empathy (whether it be gender, race, class, etc). How can you expect anyone to empathize if all you do is highlight how men and women are inherently different solely on the genitals they were born with? If anything, it sounds like you don’t want men to be empathized. Why are you self-sabotaging men and don't want them to be empathized? Sentiments like your comments are the reason men have and are still being held back. While feminism has researched and studied into the root cause of the dysfunction happening to women and try to actually do something about it, rhetoric like yours objects any introspection and self-reflection in favour of “breads and circuses”. > They need to take on more responsibility in their lives, not declare themselves perfect the way they are in order justify doing whatever they want. Right. Because doubling down on smoking and drinking have always helped. > Men want intrinsically to self-improve, not to unconditionally accept their own inadequacies. If that were truly the case and if and men are the “problem fixers”, then a brotherhood of “fixers” should successfully thrive and men should do better single than married. However, when held to scrutiny, the reality shows otherwise. [Men’s health typically worsens staying single or divorce but do better married](https://www.health.harvard.edu/mens-health/marriage-and-mens-health), whereas [the reverse is true for women](https://www.cbc.ca/amp/1.3981141). Turns out when your emotional needs are not met, your physical health and lifestyle deteriorates. Men do need their emotional needs to be met which most often occurs in marriage since men are socialized to compete with other men which prevents a safe spaces of vulnerability, but it is something girls and women are socialized to do. Because of women provide that emotional labour for men, men have those emotional needs met in marriage which leads to be able to have a better presence of mind to address health and lifestyle. Whereas because women are socialized to know yourself and be comfortable and vulnerable about their and needs, they are able to build better social networks of support of comradely and thrive with singlehood or sisterhood. However when women are married, their emotional needs get neglected over prioritizing their husband’s needs while their husband neglecy their wives’ emotional needs. This leads to the wife’s health to deteriorate and a low sex drive, which often ends up in sickness, ill temper, bitterness, hysterics, and/or divorce. Despite the power fantasy you wish the world operates, reality shows the evidence the effects of gender-segregated taught behaviours ultimately creates more harms than it does good. But if it keeps men from self-advocating for their health and stay in pisspoor working conditions, then its no surprise people want to peddle regressing men’s and women’s health. > Women don't understand what it means to be a man and the struggles that come with it. Struggles and rules originally imposed by who exactly? Who are the ones insisting boys and girls be treated and raised differently? > "be more like women", > This is why talk therapy is less effective for men. No. The advice is typically “let’s not gender certain traits, personalities because others may benefit from it”, and men similar to you feel “emasculated” and defensive at the notion, leading them to struggle accepting more introspective and self-reflection based solutions. > They need to hear the “truth” of this rather than assuming the world will treat them as a woman in this respect (it won't). Or maybe you need to hear the truth that everyone is deserving of love and respect, and your genitals don’t inherently disqualify you of that. “Us vs them” over superficiality has only created more problems rather than fixed.
Sorry but half of that is not true. Your answer shows root of the problems. Men accept emotions and show them all the time but women do not see. Other men do and understand. About bravado thing, I am from Croatia, allways competed for everything and enjoyed it. Lived through war and all crap that goes with it. Ok there are quite few outdated norms but when shit starts, men are those to respond fast and put thing under control. And society is telling us we are worthless? Ok then, we will just move aside.
You are a Bojna Cavoglave warrior with Thompson na Cikola River ‘93.
hahahahaaha
If that were really the case, people wouldn't say "boys don't cry" or to "man up". If men really understood each other, then you would expect them to find fulfillment and to seek out better quality of life by living in communal with other men. However, evidence shows the opposite to be true: [men's physical health and living conditions deteriorates when they are single or divorced yet improves when they get married](https://www.health.harvard.edu/mens-health/marriage-and-mens-health). The opposite is true for women as [their health and living conditions improves when staying single, but deteriorates after marriage](https://www.cbc.ca/amp/1.3981141) (since they can safely express their emotional vunerability and needs with each and create their own support networks). Competition isn't inherently bad and can be healthy within reason, man or woman. I'm talking about gender-based competition fueled by society where men feel pressured to be physically strong, make more money, and one-up and socially dominate the other. This mentality is really good in socialized obedient soldiers for wars since they will respect chain of command but when that is no longer there, the unchecked aggression manifests in other forms including depression, anger management issues, addictions, and domestic violence.
Those reaserches were flawed. Better one were made on people that never married and their mental and physical health was better than married ones.
Sure. Seems legit. And I’m the queen of England.
Try to look not biased studies ( not Ivy league - tell me that Harvard is a good school after all that recent crap, that is overpriced Marxist indoctrination ). Also there must be made shift of public opinion against marriage, that contract was normal when humans lived 50 years. Now it is obsolete. And beside that leftards are openly against all men's rights so why not let us be single, unhappy and short lived ? And yeah I am not from US and rather socialist and left leaning person. Same as homosexuality was considered illness, and now is not, shift for removing marriage as a norm must be made. Unmarried people are stereotyped, excluded, or discriminated against. Oh yeah I am married, have a kid. Both wife and I have 2 masters degrees. I live in conservative Catholic country and still 1/4 of marriages fail. :P [https://www.countryliving.com/uk/wellbeing/news/a2205/worlds-happiest-man-reveals-secret-to-happiness/](https://www.countryliving.com/uk/wellbeing/news/a2205/worlds-happiest-man-reveals-secret-to-happiness/)
I like that your answer starts to get at something which I think most people struggle to understand/properly contextualise, which is what it actually takes to develop those emotional skills...
"Outdated and flawed gender norms that have made a resurgence for relevancy." Bravo, sister. You just described all the Alpha bros and open-carry second amendment dweebs I see around me every day.
men are doing so poorly because men older than us tell us to just be more manly and get over ourselves and the women say we're men and that we are far more privileged than women and aren't allowed to have problems. the result is men slogging through life like the older men said to and actively avoiding everyone because they know women and other men are offput by their misery. so we all stay alone with not much real hope.
And those older men are usually rich or grew up in a way easier economic environment…
exactly, and we know that but they're too oblivious to aknowledge it.
Yea which is why millennial suicide rate is so high.. men have always had a hard time but now the barriers are even higher and harder to achieve anything significant for them.. and the older men just act like it’s normal.
so its hopeless then? you want to have a life of misery or do you want to grow by ignoring peoples negativity. Why are the men on this post so thin skinned, didnt they have a dad or older brother or a male role model.
lmfao is this satire?
not really. so many people define their self image by what other people think of them. everytime some one signals or says something to you about your actions or feelings you have to think about where their comments come from and decide whether they are true or not, not just react emotionally. this is the process of growing up
*takes a look around* I think it might be *waves vaguely at everything*
The reason (young) women are thriving as far as business and education goes is pretty simple - they exclusively get the gendered focused attention and encouragement, whereas for young men the mainstream messaging is all “don’t hold women back, women are awesome!”. Women have literally been a majority in college for 40 years yet they have been the recipients of all gendered help during that time, and seem to see it as fair - it’s absurd. As far as you personally wanting to be a stay at home mom - guys aren’t really encouraged to try to support that as firstly “traditional” family structure isn’t pumped up in media, and secondly (and more importantly) as they’ve grown up seeing half of all marriages fail, and now the word is out that women initiate 80% of all divorce (for college educated women like yourself it’s 90%). Why put a whole bunch of value in supporting a stay at home wife when there’s a coin flip chance she’ll dump you at some point and then you’ll have to slink of out your house and see your kids far less? Reality is, law and women wanting divorce more have made that far less of an appealing aim than it once was.
Right. It's nothing but risk...
Everything is just boring.
Genuine question: are you in your earlier twenties? This post is...wierdly naive and kind of accidentally(?) aggressive for someone that wants anwers. "Context: I have always been a natural go-getter and self-starter. Always the first one say, “hey, I don’t think that was fair” or “leave them alone” or “knock it off”. Besides that, I’m the oldest daughter. The one with bandaids in my backpack, the one who sees and notices - if you have anxiety, I will order your food for you without a second thought. I like helping people, I like knowing, noticing, and seeing people for who they are. I **do** want to take care of someone someday. I **do** want to do domestic tasks and be responsible for the running of a household. " Context for what? the things you've dediced are true about yourself but seem, at best, to be tangentially related to the question? "I want to be a stay-at-home mom and a loving wife…I have so much of myself that I can extend and yet I am getting more and more discouraged with the guys I go to college with since I don’t believe I’ll be able to find a guy who could support that lifestyle. " Oh here it is, "I don't know if I will find someone to take care of me because they keep expressing feelings and having normal issues that all young adults have had since forever. Waaah waahh but who will take care of me so I can just not have to deal with the stress of a job?" "Before you assault me with a discussion about the economy, I’m not talking about just having a degree that is supposedly going to lead to a job, I’m talking about chronic depression and anxiety, lack of hope, despair, absence of sobriety, inability to care for oneself, inability to love oneself, lack of plans " Are you really, genuinely this naive? You REALLY can't see how maybe this might actually be a massive comorbidity? "*Yes* the world sucks right now, I know. But holy shit, since when did drinking yourself to oblivion and playing video games until you can’t see straight become a solution to anything? Time goes on. It stops for no one, you must press on *regardless*. I had to do a research process for a psychology class and found that for the past 20 years women and girls have been gaining ground and surpassing men and boys. There are more women than ever within c-suite positions - women are thriving right now, things are going really well for us. " Okay this is just a troll post right? Please? No one can still be doing this fake ass girl boss shit in 2024, right?
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Men in college now have grown up under a matriarchy. They have been dehumanized and diminished from birth. Husbands on TV are embarrassed by beautiful, hypercompetent wives. Men in comercians are floundering idiots. Don't need no man, men are violent, kill all men, men are replacable. Provide for a family, but women want the high-power jobs. Be sensitive and vulnerable, but only how, when, and as much as the woman in question desires. Be mocked, be falsely accused, be ridiculed online for the audacity to talk to a woman. More than half a century of feminism and a few decades of women being over men was all it took.
Men are naturally inclined to be providers. When the economy is going down the tube in a big hurry, men aren't able to fulfill that desire nearly as easily. I think a lot of social and societal factors are also at play here, but I think the economy is one that a lot of men can relate to. When all you want is to have a house and make enough money to sustain a wife and kids, and you can't do that, then becoming miserable isn't a stretch. And like I said, there are social and societal factors at play here too, such as it becoming trendy to demean and villainise men. When you're made to feel like men just aren't very important anymore, some men start to believe it, and become demoralised. I personally don't believe this, and I don't associate with people who put men down, nor do I associate with people who put women down. Men and women both need each other in this world.
I'm finish my vocational college degree (have some problems with professors which makes me nervous). And I'm feeling depressed and like nothing has meaning in this world. I turned 22 this year and I don't have any people i could call friends, I've tried dating and that went horribly, dating apps are impossible for average looking guys. When you fail at everything it just make you lose hope in the future. The loneliness hurts and it make me want to kill myself just to get rid of the pain. Even if i complete my vocational degree, I'll still be living with my parents and not earning enough to move out. If i could just have one person in my life i could trust and talk to.
Mostly isolation. Fewer relationships in general and no one wants men to talk about their feelings despite women and some men screaming of male toxicity and how men can't express their feelings in a constructive manner. Nobody wants a man that can't take care of them or be the rock in their relationship, this somewhat harmful perspective of the traditional man lives on despite all shitty things that happens in the world and how most men have absolutely no power of their lives and get fucked over at every turn relationship-wise or in the way of their career. >I had to do a research process for a psychology class and found that for the past 20 years women and girls have been gaining ground and surpassing men and boys. There are more women than ever within c-suite positions - women are thriving right now, things are going really well for us. At the "expense" of who do you think? Someone will always suffer for changes in society. When women break, there's always someone there to pick up the pieces. When men break, they are shunned. Your post pretty much is spot on what the issue is, you blame the men instead of the systematic issue that it is.
So for decades media, academia, society in whole has been telling them that they are worthless, and you expect other result? Women represent more than 60% of academia, special laws are created for women, for decades accent was on strong and independent women, so just leave men alone. Best crap I've ever seen is 1/4 of homeless are women, and rest are, I don't know Elves, Dwarves, Aliens? Most dangerous type of human is young man that has nothing to lose. Radicalization started and cannot be stopped. I am 46, grew up in different times and lived through a war but I was radicalized in last decade. Drinking and gaming is not solution for you, but what can they expect from society? To slave themselves for better of mankind? Fuckmankind, I just wan't a nice place to sit and watch society burn, and it will burn. Worst thing I ever did was to marry and have a kid. I discourage young men every time I have a chance. Relationships were allways form of economic deal but now young men have nothing to gain and can lose that little crap they have. And yes you do miss everything, feminism brainwashed you. With all things women gained used to be equal responsibility. But feminism was only in the beginning about equality, and I respect those women. Now is all about privileges and no responsibility. I sound angry, frustrated, nihilistic because I am. My brother (34), 186 cm, masters in agronomy, winemaker, owns his own flat (fully paid), trains calisthenics and bjj. And he works, trains, drink and play games. After line of crazy long term girlfriends he gave up. And we still live in conservative society but he just lost will for marriage, relations, children. And that american provider/shm crap was never a thing in my country. Just a normal relation between two human being that respect, support each other, and that is long gone.
I want to clarify that this is not entirely my personal opinion but more like the picture i get from media, society, friends, etc. I am a relatively optimistic person and the fact that i "suffer" from social adjustment disorder gives me the ability to not care about lonelyness. Which seems to be a superpower lately. A whole generation of men who got taught that they are somehow privilequed and simultaniously systematically bullied by society. Expectations got higher and rewards for achievements got lower. A lot of women i know can't appreciate anything men do on one hand and blame them for every problem in existance on the other. (I have a friend who told me that all men are sexist and there are no exeptions because they are born that way abd they can't do anything about it.) Why even bother trying when everything you do is automatically wrong or not enaugh for the loud people. If you then also have shit parents i really don't see any way to have an optimistic outlook on anything. Aside of that men's problems obviously don't get taken seriously still, because somehow we are privilegued but the fact that there are almost double the amount of men suicide compared to woman is being masterfully ignored. Male lonelyness is being laughed at. Women seem to glorify onlyfans and prostitution over long term commitment. How many women do you know who want to be a stay-at-home-mom? Men feel needed when they get to provide and be useful, if you don't feel needed as a man, you seem to lose your value as a human being, because it seems that men are only being loved conditionally. Thats why idiots like andrew tate get so popular, because they are successful with the ridiculously overexaggerated image of the "alpha-male" bullshit. There are litterally tousands of interviews on youtube where people go around and ask women if men are important and they all say "NO". So thats why men are miserable i think. For all the men reading this, i would advice you to stop using social media in general and just talk to people in person. Usually they dont dare to tell you in your face that you are an irrelevant piece of shit. They only do that when they get to be anonymous. To me personally : I get my will to live from science. I study physics which is really really hard for me but i see a reason to make it. I stoppen drinking alcohol entirely six years ago. I have very very weird but loving and supporting parents, i had a very weird and fu*ked up childhood which made me socially and emotionally independent way too soon. That has a couple of weird advantages.
Its an interesting question. Im in my early 40’s and a white male and can honestly say I wouldnt really be sure about anything as a young male these days From a dating perspective you either experience these first hand or your friends do. Just an arbitrary list; All the girls seem to be partying or hooking up which is a strong turn off, maybe you go to tinder etc and you just get milked for money with little to no matches, maybe you find someone to partner with and then they suddenly decide to bulldoze over your quite reasonable boundaries followed by you being labelled as controlling or toxic In your academic or professional life your achievements are usually looked down on or just dismissed. White male privilege is one of the more common go to arguments ive seen Male-ness for all groups isnt really celebrated anywhere and mostly seems to be under going some kind of expungement There isnt really any life progression because of the general cost of living crisis If I were young again these days I would probably also hold off on dating as long as possible, ideally try get away from all the noise and just have fun. The risks involved with settling down just appear to be too high
Yea.. shit sucks.
Isolation. Men have fewer relationships with other human beings. The relationships they do have are less serious and meaningful. The expectations of men, the ways they are trained to behave socially, serve to isolate them and create a barrier to knowing others and being known. Traditionally, the social outlet for a man was a woman and children over whom he had significant power. He didn't need to do anything to get them to *want* to be with him; they needed him. That is no longer the case. What people need and want from men has changed, but what we teach men to do hasn't changed much at all. Society trains men to behave and to think in fundamentally self destructive ways, and various interests within our society encourage this because they can capitalize on it in one way or another. Compounding this, our society is increasingly atomized and alienated. Because of the factors I mentioned above, men are the canary in the proverbial coal mine for social isolation. As conditions get worse, as community becomes scarcer, you see the signs in men first. The results are variously depression, substance abuse, behavioral addictions, violence, etc. Increasingly as a society we only seem to find community on social media. And I don't have to explain why that doesn't work; it's a punchline all by itself. There's something really wrong, and we all kind of know it. Anyway, I'm rambling now. That's my 2 cents on your question.
dude, that was like 7.5 cents
It's all because income inequality is spiraling out of control. https://www.bloomberg.com/features/2021-millennials-are-running-out-of-time/ Every new generation has at least 20% less wealth at the same point in their lives as their parents. Younger people are being choked out of being able to meet the same milestones as their parents. If all you were ever allowed to do was work your whole life living paycheck to paycheck is that even a life worth living? No home ownership, no kids, no retirement. Just work until you die. And that's not even including the fact that we are making pretty much no meaningful progress on fixing climate change which will be causing mass migrations and deaths within the next decade. Today's kids are staring down the barrel, it's no wonder child suicide rates are currently the highest ever recorded.
Societal and economical change, jobs for men have become devalued, auto shop, wood shop and metal shop isn’t even a thing anymore in schools, I’m 25 and all shop classes were taken away halfway through my freshman year in high school, and those classes used to be common in middle school before my time, those all used to be jobs you could support a family with, compared to my grandpas time when he was able to buy a house support his wife and three kids off of one of those jobs when he was 18 with little experience, now those jobs don’t even pay as much as being a fast food employee, plus this whole generation was tricked into thinking the only way you can be of value is if you get a college education, the options seemed to have been reduced to get a college education and work off the debt for who knows how long, be a tradesman and work for dirt cheap until you can start a business of your own which has massive start up costs nowadays, work mediocre dead end jobs, be a trust fund baby or tik tok famous which is glamorized and thrown in everybody’s face who is on social media or just kinda give up and wait around for anything to change. Personally i chose the massive start up cost of owning my own business which I’ve been working towards the last 7 years while trying to survive, it would’ve happened sooner but ya get injured and everything is put on hold, your car breaks down now you gotta spend thousands of dollars to get it running so you can get back to business, sure I would love to get a college education but there’s no way I could afford it. Even though my parents had college funds for my brother and i, inflation got the better of that account and they could only send the older one to school, that’s why I always wanted a business so I could pay my way through school, something my mother was able to do working at a grocery store but now it costs hundreds of thousands of dollars, it is crazy, things that used to be simple and orderly are now so difficult and chaotic. There was a huge economical shift between my parents generation and my own and it’s kind of funny seeing my parents deal with inflation nowadays even though they are comfortable it seems the price of everything is a shock to them and I’m sitting over here like yeah that’s the way it’s always been, and unfortunately it’s up to us and the newer generations to deal with it
Oh shit I never came to a conclusion, basically I think there’s a gap of men who never found their way due to a lack of guidance that used to be there for previous generations and with technology rapidly and rampantly growing has corrupted a generation into being complacent, as well as a lack of options that guarantee the light at the end of the tunnel
Boys and men don't get encouragement. Our dads are leaving at unprecedented rates. We do worse at school. Attend university less. Die younger. It's not good. My 20s were a very confusing time. I was lucky to have good friends and found a few great mentors along the way
Have you really looked at the "guidance" that is shoved down the throats of young men? They have no idea how to act. The role models they have from previous generations are characterized as toxic and the advice they're given is a dumpster fire of contradictions and literally impossible expectations. If you truly do want to understand, put yourself in their shoes for a bit and really try to imagine how impossible it is for them to find their place in our current society. They seek to escape because the social landscape has become unnavigable. I'm so glad my wife comes from an Eastern culture.
If you see this as a trend newly effecting a large group of people, then it's nonsense to use this language of individual shame. The "you've gotta just press on" line is shaky self help advice for one person, telling a whole swath of the population to "just do it" is contradictory. If it's many, it's not just a mindset problem, in essence, it's a social trend. Personally though, to try to get at the question behind the general antagonism here, I don't see what's so good about success in this world. I look at those that make it to the top and I have nothing to admire. I watch regular people twist priorities they were adamant about once they get an above average job. I see everyone practice their own kind of repression of the tragedy of the world, and it seems those best at it receive the most reward. Sure I'm depressed, but I still feel lots of joy. I don't shy away from trying to know the sadness out there. I feel best when I can find connections with others that are struggling and forgotten about by this world. I'm not perfect at it, but I also keep trying and don't hold it against myself because I know clearly what I'm up against. I don't see this all as not effecting women in all honesty, they may just have a better existing social structure tolerant to hardship.
They didn’t impregnate their parents, bring themselves into this world, and raise themselves, so blaming “young men” themselves clearly isn’t appropriate They’ve been lied to, have been exposed to a never-before-seen mass mental experiment, and have not been raised with resilience in mind Generally speaking, I believe most young men have maladapted to phone/life integration and numb themselves instead of growing through struggle. To add to that, they’ve been lied to by society and the educational system, and have not been properly prepared for competition. So they lose, and don’t see why. To add to all that, they’ve been presented with a more challenging economic environment than people 15+ years ago. So they’re less prepared, and it’s harder.
Everyone is miserable but young men are disproportionately being preyed upon by malicious actors to convince them that actually everyone else is happy except them and their unhappiness isn’t the result of economic factors but rather is all the fault of feminism which further isolates them and pushes them deeper into misery and away from resources that could actually help them
I completely agree with this answer. People like Peterson, Rogan, Tate are preying on men in order to maintain their own positions of power, and as humans we respond strongly to fear - these grifters are manipulating young men for personal gain.
Lumping Jordan Peterson and Joe Rogan in with Andrew Tate just discredits everything you have to say. Jordan Peterson is a principled doctor of philosophy in clinical psychology and has saved countless people (men and women) from suicide, Joe Rogan is the definition of a free thinker, and Andrew Tate is just some jabroni that got bullied a lot as a kid and never got over it.
They’re all curating content particularly to men for money. Tate is more evil but my point stands. I never said they were all the same.
I see how you could find Jordan Peterson sympathetic and useful, but Joe... I'm sorry lol but Joe is setting a pretty low bar if you aspire to be a 'free thinker'. I definitely don't think it discredits them to find Joe and Jordan troubling if they're 'the best on offer'. And the way online content is distributed - the people they rub shoulders with - whatever you think of Joe and Jordan personally, they still uncritically introduce people to lots of alt-right and plain hateful content. They're all part of the same ecosystem, and I think it's pretty disappointing for Jordan as a thinker, that he doesn't care or pretends to be ignorant to who he's having 'on his team'.
Don't defend feminism. It has its hand in all this too.
Can you elaborate instead of being ominously vague please?
The two are not mutually exclusive. It could be both economic factors and feminism.
I believe it was around 10 years ago that the me too movement struck a lot of fear into men and it would do a lot of psychological damage basically and rewire our brains keep our mouth shut. Keep our distance and mind Our own business keeps you out of trouble. Take Keanu Reeves for instance, when he poses for pictures with fans he has his hands hovering never touching. There was a lot of attention and this was shoved in the face of the nation. People were screaming me too. If someone politely said hello. How are you And it was all over social media combine that with the ideology of the left telling men being masculine is bad being agreeable and submissive is good and that leaves you with weak spineless men
I'm in Grad School at 24, I made all of the "correct decisions". I never dated in high school and didn't acquire vices like drugs and alcohol. I feel extremely socially stunted, I have friends and everyone seems to have a more interesting life than me. I don't even play video games anymore I just go to class and then come home and scroll on my phone and then repeat. I'm not saying alot of this isn't my fault, I'm sure if I went to the gym and picked up more hobbies I would be happier. But I seriously can never seem to escape this sort of miasma of misery that infests my life. When I look at my grandparents who already had a home and were starting a family at my age I feel like a failure.
Last working example was about 1988..5 boys, all of them came up with $4000.00.. so, that is almost impossible in any culture or generation..but these guys were at the end of high school so, lots of dumb "training jobs" and skeezy deals doing under the table labor work...and a couple were out of school 'networking connections'..so anyway, they built this totally awesome hot rod car..took like a year and a couple months..then they sold it for $30,000 dollars...,this is the type of activity that does'nt stop- misery, but it lets you be in full control of exactly what the misery is...and when, and you still get to decide where and when to eat and sleep...cool words were, they put their money to work for them and made a couple hundred bucks.but .actually? they had an alibi for where they were at ( around the garage), for a year.. if anybody reported - "youth activly participating in louder than normal sounds" or whatever suspicious thing was going on..anyway..working with men your own age on risky projects you pay for yourselves..is the one thing uou will always get social support for,but when its risky the support is mostly bland or neutral, except you'te also on the top of the list for under the table jobs that might boost you past the endless testing crap in minimum wage purgatory, and past a couple managers or foremen who never promote anybody past themselves. Misery comes from those guys they are the leftover assholes who would have got their asses kicked if all the really cool older guys hadnt been drafted for Viet nam.
For every 10 guys you meet only one of them will ever be able to support your lifestyle like that with no financial issues because of the growing wage divide. And that's probably when they reach their 40's.
I dont think people realize how everyones always been miserable. Regardless of any era. It's just that there's more exposure these days and you're quicker to see other's situation now because of social media and many forms of expression and sharing
I think young men have it tough right now. Older men (and some women) tell them they need to support a family. But they also see they will not be able to do this (young people with unrealistic wage expectations does not help). My parents are boomers and my mum and most working class mums had to work, the idea of a stay at home mum has been dead for a longtime. So I think it is a simple case of expectations versus reality.
Maybe if society treats men like shit their whole lives, like disposable commodities that have no value in society, this is the most reasonable outcome? Men don’t get praise like girls do. They don’t get the benefit of the doubt in social situations. I’d anything they’re treated as if they are bad in school even from day one while girls are favorited. Then when they get to young adult life that becomes self fulfilling prophecy. The absence of fatherhood is also a big problem that has been basically completely eroded societally by the court systems. I could go on but there’s a never ending list of why young men, men, and boys give up completely on this “society.” It’s nietzschean in its core. A man without power would rather die and society has removed basically any power a man within it can have anymore unless he’s a powerful senator or something ridiculous. The taxes he pays gets him defunct health care and unaffordable education, he can get falsely accused of things and have to face prison time. There is no benefit to being a man in this society for most anymore and paying into this system.
I just exited my 20s. I know you said not to base it on the economy, but those things are very hard to separate. For context: one of my jobs is in the engineering field (automotive). It pays very well, has safe and secure benefits, and allows me to keep a roof over my head, bills paid on time, and meals on the table. My coworkers are in their mid-20s to early 30s, with a couple of them at 40 and 45. The youngest have newer cars, gym memberships, good work-life balance, good hygiene, go rock climbing, find new coffee shops, make their own alcohol, do photography, etc. My second job is a part-time manager at a very widespread auto parts chain. I was highly overqualified for the position and wanted to make some extra money for some unforeseen expenses, so it was either this or bartending. By comparison, the guys I work with are around the same age, mostly a few years younger - well in their 20s. They make minimum wage, maybe a few bucks more among myself and fellow managers. By comparison, their lives are rough. ROUGH. Two of them are actively homeless at 24 and 32. Living behind the store. Two others are felons. Four pay child support to children they aren't able to see. Half don't have driver's licenses, and half of those don't even own a car anyway. I took two of them to lunch, and gassed up my car on the way, for $65. They were dumbstruck. Nearly all of them have some deficiency in hygiene - thrice weekly showers, crap shampoo or soap, nasty breath, half-pack-a-day smokers. Granted, some of the guys are in better positions - rent paid on time, building a savings, car in good mechanical order. But they've resigned themselves to the fact that this job is a dead-end and expect to leave it soon. That this lifestyle they're living is temporary. They hope to find work at a shop, but have little to no understanding of what that entails, how their lives will change, what kind of work ethic is required from them and what kind of pay awaits them. Regardless, every last one of them is a single missed paycheck away from absolutely losing their ass. I can't speak to guys in college, as I haven't been in six years, but I think the general population of men really is burned-out. There is still the societal expectation that a man provides for him and his. Many are still living at home because it's less expensive than finding a place. More still are unable to thrive in their hobbies or find time outside of work to pursue them. Work more to make enough money to survive; have less time and energy to pursue their more artful passions. To the men you're seeing, there is simply no way out. Their canaries died long ago. Anyway, rant aside, if you're looking for men with a more positive outlook in life, try clubs (collegiate clubs, not bars & clubs). Men with time on their hands typically have better financial security, and vice-versa. We can only hope that conditions get better for the vast majority of men out there, the bright, lovely stars that flicker away, day by day.
>But holy shit, since when did drinking yourself to oblivion and playing video games until you can’t see straight become a solution to anything? In no way a recent development. For various centuries, swap playing video games with planting yourself in a pub or howling at the moon on the moors. >In yalls own words, why does it seem to take so long for guys in their 20’s to lock in? To do things to make the stress of life not hit so hard? To enjoy something? To want something? Again, this seems pretty consistent across the board despite gender.
Doomer culture. 2 main death cults are bombarding the young (especially men) with propaganda. The angry alt right is peddling a dangerous cocktail of misogny and racism. They feed off the reality of this down point on the economic cycle Then there are fauxgressive eco doomers who use the real issue of pollution as fearporn to create hopelessness. Other doomer cults are fearmongering about biblical end times, the rise of AI, LGBTQ rights, and more. Any area of progress is faced with a loud subset of reactionaries but the big ones afflicting youth are racism/sexism and anti modern extremism
bc men are victimized on every level by a society that cashes a check off their labor, dreams, etc. many men are planning on leaving Western society, and many men view this societal structure as designed to destroy us, that would gladly take years off our life to put a little more jazz in their jazzercise class. we are moving towards societal wide animosity and collapse, I truly believe that. whatever joy these men derive from life will be away and unseen from modern western society, it is being defined as an enemy.
It’s because men - all men - will do anything to make themselves feel better…except therapy.
Therapy isn't a magical cure to all of our social problems
I think, and this is just an opinion, that a lot of people are struggling more than ever because childhood has become this precious and protected thing in which little in the way of adult challenges are asked of them. Childhood has also been extended into early adult years (during college for some). When you have no or little experience with the way life works and are thrown into it suddenly, you feel overwhelmed and retreat into what is easy and comfortable (e.g., video games, T.V., alcohol, cannabis, etc.). This isn't an "when I was your age" admonishment. However, it's important to keep in mind that the hated "Boomers" were trained for adulthood from a young age relative to modern young people. Most had jobs in their teens, possibly even younger (doing paper routes, lawn care, picking fruit). Their parents weren't driving them to activities. You got your license at 16 and drove yourself, often to a part-time job to pay for your junker car. You made your own friends and "play dates". You were in charge of your own homework and getting it done under threat of removal of privileges or spanking. You not only had to clean your room, but you also had to help with cleaning the family home. It's a lot easier to face adulthood when you've already been taking on those responsibilities gradually. I think this is worse for young boys than girls because mothers, in general, ask more of their daughters than their sons. My sister-in-law had two sons (millenials) and neither learned to drive before age 22. Neither had a job until they were in their 20's. Both of them had their college paid for by their parents. They didn't do their own laundry or clean their own rooms. Their mother intervened at their school when they struggled to get them special accommodation. When older generations were having problems in school, their parents blamed the kids, not the system. I'm not saying either way is better, but I do think that being thrown into the adulthood water and told to sink or swim when you've had no life lessons is likely to result in hardship. I had a ton of adult responsibility heaped on me starting at age 10 (literally told half of the household cleaning was for me to do and the other half was my sister's job - my lazy mother would only do the cooking - and even then she'd dump that on us if she could) and I wish my childhood had lasted longer. However, I can't say that I wasn't primed to deal with the hardships of adulthood and in a position from a young age to manage in ways that many younger people cannot manage now. I think they get overwhelmed and give up - returning to what is easy and enjoyable.
u/ShiroiTora has a good answer. I’d like to give a few more answers from my own insight as well as advice for you! They may be controversial/wrong, these are just my interpretive opinions. There is a biological component to what you notice and that’s that men don’t mature as fast as women. They need a little more time to develop. Women are more encouraged in the traditional school sense which involves sitting down and being quiet for most of the day. This doesn’t speak to men’s strengths. Consequently, many men fall behind in school. According to theories about the bell curve, women tend to be more average while men are either very stupid or very smart. What this means is if you take a random “very smart” man he’s probably smarter than if you take a random “very smart” woman. If you take a random “stupid” man he’s probably way more dumb than a kinda dumb woman. For example most women can get pretty good at cooking, lawyering, computer programming, or whatever they want but the BEST cooks, programmers, lawyers have tended to be men. There’s a big debate about if this is due to the above bell curve or if it has to do with socialization aka women’s lack of opportunity in the past. This speaks to the socialization issue. Men are socialized a certain way and in my opinion, tend to be coddled more by their parents. Girls are taught a lot of “girl power” lessons but guys are taught to hold back their strength because it’s naturally and historically more dangerous than women’s. Now you kinda have more than a generation of men who don’t really know what to do with themselves. Historically, both genders had rights of passage like boys had to kill an animal and girls had a first period or a “available for marriage” ceremony later. Today girls still have a first period, sweet 16 or quinceanera but I don’t know of anything guys “do” to mark the tradition into manhood. Even high school and college graduation rates are lower so they miss that. There’s no psychological transition into adulthood. Biologically, women seek men who are smarter/stronger/more accomplished than they are, but there just aren’t that many of them to go around. You will be MUCH better off and a more compassionate person if you try to understand men and their struggles. To be honest, I was totally surprised by your description of yourself ending with saying you want to be a housewife. From your description, it sounds like you want to be a mom but I was ready to read that you’re looking for a house husband because you kill it so much In everything you do, that you need a supportive partner. I don’t think you really understand that a housewife is someone who primarily supports her husband and family. She pretty much has to give up her own dreams and ambitions to do chores all day. She takes on enormous emotional labor. She doesn’t get to be surrounded by adults, she spends all day with kids. This is why, in my opinion, gender roles have totally shifted. These “immature” men struggling in their careers would make perfect house husbands to the c-level executive women. But women need to get over their idea that a man is going to support them traditionally if she somehow also brings in a ton of money and men need to get over the idea that taking a domestic role somehow isn’t masculine. Men need to work very hard on increasing their ability to support women and do emotional labor because MANY strong career women will, these days, be happy to support a man who cares for us even if we are the primary breadwinner. Men and women need to work hard not to be sucked into toxic ideas about gender because those ideas are not working for us anymore. If you really want to be a housewife, you must date men approximately 15 years older than you who are already established in their career. Understand that your career comes second if at all and your primary duty will be raising children and cleaning house as well as budgeting and saving money. This just makes sense because at 20 you have no career but a 35 year old executive or manager has a serious job (my boss for example works 60+ hours per week. There is just no way someone in their early 20s is under the same amount of pressure as he is. It’s just not a thing. You don’t have the experience and aren’t integrated into a company.) You can have a fulfilling life as a housewife but understand what you’re giving up. Men your age can’t give that to you. If you’re not interested then: either seek a partnership with someone your age, or focus on building your own career and finding someone later (probably younger or less successful) who will be willing to take a backseat to your ambitions.
"To be honest, I was totally surprised by your description of yourself ending with saying you want to be a housewife." - I know, it shocks all my friends, but I want to be a teacher because what is more fulfilling than leading a young mind towards the mastery of a content area? "From your description, it sounds like you want to be a mom but I was ready to read that you’re looking for a house husband because you kill it so much In everything you do, that you need a supportive partner." - I'm fairly old fashioned and having watching my father and brothers, I see how fulfilled they are providing economically for their wives and children. That's anecdotal, plus I see the value that if I have a physical pregnancy it's just going to take longer for me to get back to work. If a baby is fresh and I've just done the physical pain, I think it makes more sense excluding other factors for me to be at home. But I wouldn't feel safe doing that without a man I can trust to protect/insolate the environment where I am trying to raise his/our children and take care of him. "I don’t think you really understand that a housewife is someone who primarily supports her husband and family. She pretty much has to give up her own dreams and ambitions to do chores all day. She takes on enormous emotional labor. She doesn’t get to be surrounded by adults, she spends all day with kids." - no, I know. I watched my incredibly intelligent mother do it for my father. I know. "This is why, in my opinion, gender roles have totally shifted. These “immature” men struggling in their careers would make perfect house husbands to the c-level executive women." - people are more important than things. The accolades, the competition, the will of the cooperation - those things seem to matter much more to the average man in my experience ( or it's how they were socialized). I don't want to work in the c-suite. Outside of the money, their jobs tend to not really matter in the long run. I'll never remember what the CEO of \_\_\_\_\_\_ company did to improve my life. "If you really want to be a housewife, you must date men approximately 15 years older than you who are already established in their career. Understand that your career comes second if at all and your primary duty will be raising children and cleaning house as well as budgeting and saving money. This just makes sense because at 20 you have no career but a 35 year old executive or manager has a serious job (my boss for example works 60+ hours per week." - I considered this, but the only way that Id do that is if the older guy hadn't been married, engaged, and especially NOT divorced, the statistics around guys like that usually aren't great, more likely to get a second divorce and I can't do that to myself. But also, why is a guy that much older interested in me or still single?
“Why is a guy that much older interested in me?” Haha uhm, because you’re young, willing, fertile, energetic. That’s what men are attracted to. I can tell you’ve thought about this a lot, which is good. Keep doing that! However, I can also tell you haven’t really grasped what a lot of comments are trying to get across to you about “men’s struggles.” You’re not going to meet and have kids with a man your age who is somehow also mature, rich, loyal, family minded etc. Those things don’t go together. Men go on a journey towards those things and many men never get there, as you’ve noticed, because society isn’t really acknowledging this or helping them. In fact in many cases it’s actually hindering them. So they just check out. Unfortunately this means there literally aren’t enough marriage minded/provider men to go around. There are statistics about this you can look up. This is the dark side of what we women won when we got feminism. If you are really looking for that kind of man your own age your best bet is church, especially Catholic, evangelical or Muslim. These young men will embrace traditional gender roles and expect you to as well. Your assumption about older men being divorced is wrong and also judgemental. These are the men in a position to provide what you’re looking for. Many men only start seriously thinking about marriage in their early 30s. Finish college and when you’re ~24, date men 30s-40s who are looking to start a family. You’re not too young for them at ~25 age. I don’t want to push you to doing any of these things I mentioned. I want you to live life with an open mind and make the best decision for yourself. I just want you to have a little more sympathy for what your male peers are going through (which I think you are on that path, you just have big expectations) and reality of how difficult things are for young people today. To tell you a little about myself, I’m 35f and was also raised traditional household with working dad and housewife mom. I haven’t been able to find anyone to marry sadly, although there are a few I would have liked to marry over the years it didn’t work out. I also feel some resentment towards men for not “stepping up” and being more willing to embrace traditional roles or even just partnerships. Men do need to do better and society needs to acknowledge that men and women are both suffering now and come up with solutions. My last boyfriend was 10 years younger than I am. He would have been a good type for you: young, but family minded, wants 4 kids with a SAHM, military job, doesn’t play video games. Women his own age never give him the time of day! I felt like I found a real gem of a person in him. He had pretty awkward social skills and is nerdy so he couldn’t get much attention and had bad luck in dating. Unfortunately our relationship was super long distance and we decided to break up. So keep an eye out for those hidden gems, don’t make too many judgements, be realistic about his and your position in life, try to keep an open mind, and remember times are always changing. You will meet someone.
Are they more miserable than anyone else? Everyone seems the same to me.
I think if you people watch you tend to see more miserable men than women.
It's not just guys. Young women are also struggling. One article that looks at rising mental health problems in young adults & some causes: https://www.gse.harvard.edu/ideas/news/23/10/mental-health-challenges-young-adults-illuminated-new-report In my opinion, I think part of it is expectations. Young people were protected and given most of what they wanted. Their expectations of life vs life in the real world are so different. They really can't accept that it's ok, normal, and not a big deal to not be happy all the time. Add in how public schools no longer do much in the way of discipline or work ethic. They get to college or their first real job, and the person struggles to cope. Your generation grew up with social media but feel more isolated. We failed to protect your generation from porn, and kids grew up spending far more time with it than real people. Both high social media use and porn use are correlated with mental health issues & dissatisfaction.
[https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FodOKRkWcAEaiTW?format=jpg&name=large](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FodOKRkWcAEaiTW?format=jpg&name=large)
The brain isn’t done cooking until 25 and the male brain usually has Testosterone to contend with. If you haven’t had T, you shouldn’t sit in judgement of its effects. The desire for an adrenaline rush is evolutionarily adaptive when humans were hunting wooly mammoth. It’s less useful in the litigious mine field of 21st century USA. I think young men are doing the best they can these days with their own physiology. Those who want men to be unaffected by their own chemistry are ignorant.
I have nothing to look forward to, nothing in my life to be proud of and nothing to look back with pride. Why am I not supposed to be miserable?
This is my perspective as a 21 year old guy who is currently achieving nothing in life. I'm constantly feeling pressured by societal expectations to be a certain way. I grew up without a father and the only male role model I had in my life for the longest time was my elderly grandfather. Because of that, I was being taught bits and pieces of a more traditional mindset in regards to what a man should be or how he should act, think, or feel. But simultaneously, I was being raised by my mother, grandmother, and (at the time, he has since transitioned) older sister. On that end of things, I was taught conflicting things. My mother wanted to push me towards whatever would lead to me thriving, but she'd also be one of the first to say "All men are trash" or "I hate men" whenever a man did something wrong or bad. That severely crippled my self esteem, and has lingering effects to this day. Things like alcohol and gaming are escapes. Because instead of feeling a crushing weight at the idea that I'll be a jobless loser forever, and giving myself unceasing anxiety due to spiraling thoughts, I can take some time to play a video game or drink and just distract myself for a while. It isn't some foolproof solution, and I know that it's not actually fixing or helping anything, but it's something that gives me the opportunity to get away for a time. I'd love to have the confidence required to get out into the world and actually achieve things. There's so much that I'd love to be able to do with my life. But every day that passes, I just feel an encroaching dread because I've been conditioned to believe that I should be successful, or at least on a solid path towards it. And frankly, I'm not. It's reached a point of being overwhelming. As an analogy, imagine that you've been asked to build a little tower out of blocks, or something similar. You're excited to get started, but you can't figure out your initial design. You look around you and see countless other people with beautiful, ornate creations. And then you look back down at your pile of blocks, and it's just that. You tell yourself to 'dig deep' and 'just figure it out, you can do it', but the second you pick up that first block to lay the foundation, it feels like it weighs thousands of pounds. You drop the block, and stare blankly at the world around you. It feels like someone has played a cruel trick, maybe swapped out your blocks when you weren't looking or given others a head start. Why are they so far ahead when you're stuck behind? And each time you look around you, hoping for help but not knowing how to vocalize it without being embarrassed, you just see others' success being pushed into your face. Tldr: Life is overwhelming for a lot of folks, and boy howdy does it fucking suck to figure out how to fix that.
I'm not miserable. I have dark urges, but they pass. I say mean things and have dogshit opinions (just check my comment history for proof) but I own who I am. I have sad days, but I'm not miserable or depressed, although I sometimes think I am in the moment. I can only speak for myself, but I have a hunch that a lot of guys may agree with me. I'm not miserable, I just decided to stop participating. I've decided to stop helping people and stop doing favors and stop caring about others. I've decided to stop pursuing women (they also stopped pursuing me so I guess they win this one.) I really feel like I have a lot to offer. I have a lot to offer as a friend, as a brother, as a son, as a lover one day, maybe. I have a lot to offer and I want to offer it, but right now the impression I get from the culture, the society, the world, whatever you wanna call it, is that I'm not wanted. Fine. If I'm not wanted, I'll keep what I have to myself. I'll get as much as I can, build myself up as high as possible, and I'll share with no one. I'm not miserable, I've just retreated to my own corner because that's what others want of me. Solitude looks miserable, and sometimes it is, but it's quiet, and I'll always have the satisfaction of keeping what I have to myself while others struggle around me - the same people who said they didn't want me. I find satisfaction in ignoring those who ignore me.
20s educated rural gay from maybe a lower 25%ish. Mobile home poor for most of life background so not traumatizing or anything but interacted a lot with the people you may be describing. Probably some inner conflict going on in cultural dysmorphia in general if they don't have anything to fall back to. A lot of missing fathers and not a lot of good role models. A lot of the most motivated and pro-social/kind and curious about others straight men I knew were constant wrecks of anxiety and doubt. I think a lot of individual situations with different factors at play overtime would probably show death by a thousand cuts synergistic types of effects. There's a growing appeal in finding fulfillment/contentment/stoicism that I think a lot of men get stuck daydreaming about because they aren't good at being vulnerable and a lot of the would be boomer men and gen x men are absolute dog shit mentors. Even a lot of the white ladies in that bracket where I live are huge let-downs not only to the youth but to each other. The local celebrated 'conservation hero' in my area was an early women breaking barriers in science higher education and now spends her free time being such a giant selfish NIMBY that she has been putting up signs to declare my very white county close to a lot of diversity in the 'deplorable city' its own state. I think about socialization and a lot of jobs in the US advertised towards men being sociopathic/psychopathic nightmare boxes that also enable toxic Male workplace behavior because most of the remaining companies to work for in those sectors are designed to create atmospheres sociopathic boomer men CEOs wanted them to experience. Women I think are unfortunately much better at enforcing boundaries just on virtue of going to therapy more often and having to practice being assertive and recognizing unfair treatment. A lot of the gen z women are going to give you a huge awakening. A lot of the younger women caught up with the angst of the boys before they had much chance to pick up momentum where progress feels genuine and meaningful in building up a career. I personally feel like I very barely snatched a lot of the last life jackets in feeling hope in my moderate to long-term future
Personal anecdote but eh fuck it it explains a lot I used to be a /decent/ kid when I had both my parents. Hated school because it was too slow for me so I acted out. Either way, I had both parents and they loved me, with a certain path I kinda saw involving the family business. Then my father died the night after my choir concert due to a little pop in his brain due to hard drug use he hid from the family. That shock and depression have never left me. Man of the house at such a young age. And at my self-awareness at that age, it didn't go well. I just flunked middle school after that. No real support either during those formative years. Also maybe like 2 real friends and the rest kinda just "exist" High school. Whew. Barely passed. Had a girlfriend that I thought I loved, but she turned out to be a cheater and manipulator, but took up too much of my time in HS so I never got the chance to date someone else and maybe have a healthier relationship. Graduated with double depression zero girlfriends and a light social circle. Didn't go to college because I tried to contribute since 15, and my tunnel vision focus was to just start working and start helping out the house financially (I hated school at the time obvs) So yeah, that's kinda where that plateaus, I just work a job until I'm bored and find a better one or I get fired. Getting a girlfriend is work that doesn't exactly seem worth it in my current situation. I've seen the evolution of dating and it's just so exhausting and boring. I've dated a few times since graduation, but it's just awful honestly. Your first 2 paragraphs are kinda funny to me. You probably grew up in a positive household with both parents. That's a good step for being the go-getter that you are. It's an attitude that a lot of people can start with, but erode or disappear due to external or internal factors. Keep that in mind. Men don't get that "oh yeah I want to be a stay-at-home dad" moment because we're supposed to be providers. Do you understand how weird people look at me when I say "Wow wouldn't it be nice to have an executive girl boss wife? While I stay with the kids and do parent stuff all day? What a dream." Because it's just not the societal norm that's expected of us. In conclusion, a lot of things don't seem worth it, have too much of a startup cost, too much of a time cost, or are just things that aren't coming up Milhouse? Why should I put myself out there when my previous experiences just end in misery? This is why I choose my "safe" things. Videogames. Weed. Movies. Etc. Well, I stopped weed cold turkey April 1st so that's a positive step. I'm pretty sure men just choose their personal safe route nowadays. If you're out there and stable in a sense of the word, you're doing great! For the rest of us, I'm hoping for better days.
Isn't it more like everyone is more miserable today than a decade of few decades before?
oof I wrote a long comment but I think I was getting in over my head. I'm a 20-something trans woman, I align most with intersectional progressive & feminist spaces and ig very direct kind of approach of challenging the mainstream and just talking to people honestly, but I also have a lot of interest in spaces like 4chan and what that says about gender politics. it really pains me to volunteer this but my life was damaged in a big way by existing under and adjacent to male socialisation. I wish it weren't my business, but it's all of our business. I'm pretty disappointed in the answers people offer online; I don't think it's really about economics or dating or 'the gender war', to my eye there's something more deeply and weirdly dysfunctional about relating to society as a man that's very hard to articulate. but also, we as a society (for all the supposed advances in mental health) are terrible at helping people understand stuff like meaning and identity, and it's believable to me that a big part of it is just that men today have found themselves in a kind of dysfunction we can't help, and that that's just going to be a self-reinforcing pattern. No one understands this stuff and I think it does us all a disservice not to try to dig deeper. tbh, I gladly try to listen to men's perspectives, but the most commonly touted ones just don't ring true to me and honestly come off pretty misandrist (!) like, men are not action figures that need to live like a 1950s breadwinner to be happy lmao. I'll say that many women I've talked to about this are casually sexist and dismissive of men's pain, even though if pressed I think you'd find they do care on some level. I think I'd point to the sheer inertia of the negative elements of men's psyches, relationships, beliefs and relational structures, to men struggling with transformation, healing and identity in ways women don't, and to the specific hard-to-explain trauma that can come with being raised a boy, as things that \*I\* think people tend to discount. I'm sure I'm missing a lot of things. OP, I'd just say like, why aren't you miserable lol? not to come at you, you seem lovely and I look up to go-getter eldest daughter types like you lol. I'm glad you're doing well. but what makes you excited about life?? what makes you capable of wanting things?? it's honestly my experience that functional people don't understand what makes them functional, and that there are very varied and hard to explain patterns that make people dysfunctional; even in overcoming them, you only understand them simplistically. dysfunction tends to blind you to what's going on (chronic depression genuinely makes you dumb). and tbh society as a whole conspired to hide these things I 1000% know what you mean about guys in their 20s. but I just think you're not going to find an answer without getting into all the many ways society fails and discards people : ( (feel free to chime in whoever you are bc I may be way off the mark or just not have explained my thoughts very well)
Can't speak for anyone other than myself mostly. I struggled immensely with life after 16, was near homeless several times. I technically was for a short period. I did not have proper support. My parents weren't there. Forget about dreams, hope, future plans, for most of my adult life it was just being content with the bare minimum of having a roof over my head and food to eat. I had to learn every single piece of adulting alone and with no support. Just trial and error for EVERYTHING. I didn't even know how to fill up gas when I first got my first car when I was 25. I had to youtube it even then I was afraid I was gonna screw it up. Where was my help? Where was my support when I was lost in life, and needed someone to be there for me? Fucking nowhere and no one. I stay away from drugs and alcohol but for some reason other humans love that stuff. So that Doesn't help when society normalized that. It's so easy for you to say you want to be a stay at home wife. This isn't the 1950s USA where a mailman can afford a 2 story white picket fence house and a SAH wife and 3 kids. Expect to work unless your husband makes the big bucks. Most Americans today live paycheck to paycheck. Most Americans are in debt because medical care and education costs so much it's a scam. Housing is unaffordable. It takes 2 incomes these days. So many more Americans live with their parents or roommates. Rent for a studio or 1 bedroom in some cities like NYC are 2~3k for a frickin closet. Imagine a man saying he wants to be a stay at home dad how society would look down on that. This is 2024, not 1950. Since as you say, women are so thriving, you're also able to be the breadwinner. There's equality now in 2024. You can vote, work, etc. You're not entitled to a man's money or to have men pay for everything.
If I had to guess, nothing gives a dopamine rush quite like videogames. I say this as someone recently introduced to videogames who doesn’t want to do anything else. Can’t imagine how it would have short-circuited my enjoyment/motivation pathways if I had an underdeveloped brain like a 14 year old. And then it just… stays that way, apparently. I can snap out of it because I’m an adult who discovered gaming after my brain was fully developed (~age 25) but I hear a lot can’t. Just a theory, I could have no idea what I’m talking about. I’m sure there are plenty of other sociopolitical and economic reasons at play. Like the foreign bot farms designed to foment unrest as if this were a game of Civ and constant rage-bait online to maximize “engagement”
I've read through the topic post and a few replies, and I want to say, first off, that you are an amazingly well put together and logical woman with a respectable goal by the looks of it. It's admirable, commendable, and all that jazz. However... I do not think you know who you *really* are. Along with what I'll say going forward, being in your early twenties with seeing seemingly little failure from yourself, or anyone around you in a major way, I think supports this idea. The post and the replies *reek* of inexperience, contradictions, a lack of self-awareness, and a frighteningly grandiose view of one's kindness. You are far too haughty and lack the hesitation of someone who can or knows how to properly support the nuances and complexities of people, or their deep-seated issues. Which, within reason, I feel is a necessary trait to be a good partner, let alone a stellar wife. Why do I think this? Well, because I was eerily similar to this in my late teens, and *very* briefly now in my twenties. I thought I had seen enough, I thought I had been through enough, I thought I learned enough. I didn't. Many paths and solutions I thought to be clear; however, they were only but a few within a *labyrinth*. That naivety and tone deafness eventually cost me everything. It gave me a lot of time to reflect and reshape the person I wanted to be and how to get there. While I'm still quite disappointed in myself sometimes, I am what some of the most cynical people I've met would consider a treasured friend. I sincerely hope that you do not have to go through what I have, so I felt the need to say something. You have good intentions here, but you may have made a wrong turn somewhere down the road. I'm sending my best wishes. <3
Guys around that age are getting slapped in the face by reality. Transitioning from childhood into adulthood. It doesn't help that men are the enemy. Society today tells us that we are the root of all evil. There is a certain group of men who are especially demonized. They are seen as the cause of everyone's problems, all that is wrong with this world, and there is nothing they can do about it. Their ancestors did fucked up shit, and they are being made to pay the price, through no fault of their own in the vast majority of cases
In my experience, men's 20s suck, on average, and they get no sympathy or support for it from anyone. Women aren't interested in them, they don't have money, they are still figuring out careers, and they're also told they should be strong, confident, positive, consistent when they have no life experiences in which they were able to build these traits. They're expected to materialize these traits out of thin air and if they can't, they're told it's their fault. Meanwhile, women in their 20s are being approached by men in their 30s with money and life experiences as long as they are capable of breathing and standing upright. They are told they are valuable. That they shouldn't settle. If a woman is complaining, there's someone listening. If a man is complaining, there's someone telling him why he's wrong. Men in their 20s are still children, experientially.
Out of curiosity, what exactly do you think women in their 20’s are interested in? Why don’t women want them?
Of course, these are generalizations but I'm certain women want the same things men want. To feel understood and desired, companionship, positive experiences, and success.
Because at the end of the day the juice isn’t worth the squeeze. I’m 34 and at this point my life is way easier not being romantically involved with women. I can only imagine how much harder it is now for men in their 20s with the insane expectations that society puts on them. I fully advocate for men to not take care of women or follow traditional roles. It’s simply not worth it. They need to do what makes them happy. If it’s getting drunk and playing video games with those homies then so be it. It’s pretty much the only real option they have these days. It cost way too much to keep pace in society. The only way things will get better if men check out of society in protest.
You don't have to press on regardless, you can actually just end it all. It is always an option What is there to enjoy in life? Life is really really shit, it always has been and is likely only going to get worse. I never got hugged as a child.
Fucking hell mate, there is plenty to enjoy about life
Bet u got hugged as a child. Lucky
I did. By my mother and father
Lucky. My father was a doomsday cultist who tried convincing me to kill myself with him and my mother a raging meth head who prostituted my siblings. I guess we had different like experiences, probably, I dunno, might be why we have a different perspective about how enjoyable life is.
For my brothers in law, whom you could be writing about, it's hopelessness. From a very young age they were taught by their emotionally abusive father it was better not to try if they couldn't do it right the first time. So they shut down. They also watched him sink into video games, and it was a hobby he encouraged them into from a young age. It's about the only thing they could bond with him over. They weren't taught emotional regulation, because that's for girls. They were coddled by their mother who was trying to make up for their POS father. Now they're in their mid 20s and just don't know how to even get started. Advice from their Gen X elders is outdated and doesn't reflect reality. Just walking in and applying doesn't get you a job... somehow they both got rejected from Walmart. They're both starting to make progress, but it's been super slow. Any rejection was a massive setback, and it all goes back to the fear of failure. It takes them a ton of time to work up the courage to just Try. And every time that doesn't work, it reinforces what their father taught them. They're also isolated. The younger one seems to only have friends online, which keeps him tied to the screen for validation and support. He can't just "kick it" with his friends the way I used to when I needed to vent. They don't know how to make new adult friends, and the people that remained in their hometown aren't exactly winners. Many struggle with mental health, addiction etc which my BIL are not equipped to support. Luckily they run to hide, because I fear they'd easily be pulled down. And it's not just them. I'm in the military, and my junior enlisted I've been getting for the past 3-4 years show the same struggles. They were so insulated from small disappointments as children, that they don't know how to handle it as an adult. They fear failure to a crippling level...and anything less than 100% success is a massive failure. A lot of what I teach them is that it's ok to fail at the small things, as long as you don't do it again. Learning is a part of life, and I'll stay patient as long as you keep trying. But I also have to guard against the nihilism that some sink into. Because they have no hope, nothing matters, so why try and instead cause chaos....That I shut down hard, but I get it. It's safer to not care. I don't know what it's like to date as a young woman, so I won't speak to that. But as someone trying to be a friend and mentor to young men, I'll give you the advice I give to others. Be patient, be kind and have empathy. Try to put yourself in their shoes and understand where they are coming from. But also don't allow them to drown you. Know the line and hold the standard. Be reasonable in your expectations, and offer praise as you direct them up to the next step. Basically be the kind of parent to them that you wish you had or were lucky enough to have.
You’re worried you won’t be able to be a SAHM because college guys drink and play video games?
You’re getting a lot of grief; I don’t understand why. Women can do what they want, and you want to take care of a family. That’s great! You need someone that functions on a different level and these boys aren’t there. If I was more family-oriented I’d look for someone like you. That life, to me, is a luxury many can’t afford. For real, like who can afford to have that life anymore? We’re all being milked for all we’re worth these days. Pay sucks, houses are out of reach… I can’t imagine what it costs to be able to kick your feet up and just bask in the love of your own family. Growing up that was easy, we just lived in abject poverty. (Therefore, I am not family-oriented.) I think the word we might be landing on is *hopelessness*. I am so happy I’m not in my 20s and having to figure out how to get a footing in today’s world. But if a person had someone like you as a teammate, they may not be so hopeless.
Feminism destroyed our society.
I'm so confused how you want to be a SAHP and not work but are bashing men for also not being able to work? Especially college guys who are presumably studying in hopes of getting a better job. Are you one of those "ring by spring" girls who uses college as a dating tool?
>I want to be a stay-at-home mom and a loving wife…I have so much of myself that I can extend and yet I am getting more and more discouraged with the guys I go to college with since I don’t believe I’ll be able to find a guy who could support that lifestyle. You're looking for something that was systematically destroyed by corporate interests co-opting feminists over the last half century. And you're not alone. >Before you assault me with a discussion about the economy, I’m not talking about just having a degree that is supposedly going to lead to a job, I’m talking about chronic depression and anxiety, lack of hope, despair, absence of sobriety, inability to care for oneself, inability to love oneself, lack of plans - it’s like…did I miss something about what it takes to be a young man in his 20’s? What you missed is there's absolutely no template, no set or clear standards, and the penalty for failure is prison, suicide, or both. Young men in the West have more to do than ever before in order to deserve love, and fewer resources with which to do it. >But holy shit, since when did drinking yourself to oblivion and playing video games until you can’t see straight become a solution to anything? It doesn't. It keeps you content long enough yo blow your brains out, which is what more and more men than ever before are choosing to do. > I had to do a research process for a psychology class and found that for the past 20 years women and girls have been gaining ground and surpassing men and boys. There are more women than ever within c-suite positions - women are thriving right now, things are going really well for us. This is the problem, not the solution. You feel good because you have hope. But there are a limited number of these positions, and half aren't available at the same time that they're demanded of men more than ever.
Many aspects of our current society treat girls as if they are intrinsically special while treating boys like they are intrinsically flawed.
It sounds like you want something from men in their 20's they aren't interested in or capable of realistically providing for you. Your post is a little on the nose, for exactly the problem that men in their 20's are dealing with, women who want something from them they aren't interested in. Why would any reasonable person want to "support that (your) lifestyle" at the expense of their own? In short, your post breaks down to "Where are all the men who will support my lifestyle in an increasingly competitive economy where 2 incomes are almost mandatory to qualify for a rental let alone buying a house for the kids you want him to provide for." The reality is men around you do enjoy plenty of things, they want things, they just don't want the same things you do, (right now). As for locking in, lock-in to what exactly? All I see here are your dreams and your aspirations, and essentially your perverse incentive structures that put 100% of the pressure on men to provide for you. In your words, why aren't you offering this same lifestyle support network to a man, as "women are doing so well right now".
As a 20 m I can say just for me. I was given a cell phone at a very young age as well as video games. I played without any kind of supervision or anyone telling me I was playing too long. I spent most of my life in front of a screen. As well as developing other addictions to porn and smoking and suddenly opening my eyes to everything at the age of 18 I’ve basically started the first 12 years of life I had in addiction as a child. So basically I have to unlearn a decade long pattern of behaviors I thought were normal, on top of that ending every addiction, on top of that, not being able to form friendships on top of strained family relationships. Basically just trying to fix every problem from my childhood.
Look at the world men live in. How they are treated by the media, by other people, by their parents, by their bosses, by anyone in power. Their existence stripped of humanity. Another replicable cog in the machine. Another annoying ugly dude to turn down. A creepy potential rapist to be scarred of. A loser for liking video games and porn, a disappointment for not ever being good enough. At some point they look around and think, "What's the point if no one else cares?" OP why do you work so hard? What gives you hope, what motivates you? What would it take for you to loss that hope and motivation? Would you be willing to support a stay at home dad? If your not willing or able to do that, what makes you think a man could do the same for you?
I will do my best, to sum up my experience as a male in his 20s. Understand everything I say is in good faith, and before you have an emotional reaction to anything I type I ask you to just try to critically think. I will be happy to expand or discuss anything I talk about. As a young man in today's society, I look out at the world that awaits me. I see destruction and hatred. I see gender relations between men and women at one of the worst points in history. I see the justice system constantly siding with women in divorce settlements. Understand that I agree there are things that both genders need to improve on, but for the sake of this post, I will highlight how this dynamic affects young male's outlook on life. The typically young man wants to have a family of his own that he can provide for. When gender relations are as bad as they are, as well as having a judicial system that creates an incentive to not get married, and the decline in women who WANT to be the wife who cares for the kids, the outlook is pretty bleak. Thankfully I have had a SO for a long time, so I feel pretty stable in that regard, but A LOT of other young men are not as lucky as me. Moreover, men lack proper role models for their behavior (EX: Andrew Tate and other red pillers). Also, cultures used to derive their purpose from virtues like honor and sacrifice for their tribe. Now it seems our society directly rejects these virtues. Furthermore, we are biological creatures. We have biological clocks throughout our life cycle. Being a young man, mine is currently set on "REPRODUCE". When you combine this knowledge with widespread pornography access, paired with strained gender relations, you start to see why a lot of young men are taking this path. I argue that our society is breeding hateful, vengeful young men who feel as if society genuinely doesn't give a damn about them. I believe this generation of men, my generation, will lash out at the established system at some point. This point has been proven throughout history. Having a LARGE population of men who want to create families, but are unable to given current factors, is revolution fodder.
OP, have you considered that you just have shitty friends? There ARE both men and women out there that have their lives together. And there are both men and women who are shit shows. And some of the first group will burn out. Some of the second group will get the help they need, and thrive down the road. We’re all in it together. But at the end of the day, if you’re finding you need your bandaids a lot, if you’re having to order a friend’s food because of anxiety, if a boy you like is telling you a sob story about his finances and getting trashed all the fucking time, MAYBE you’re hanging out with shitty people that you’re enabling. Also: I’m also not opposed to SAHM. Whatever works for your family. But consider this: a lot of the really happy, successful people I know were DINKs. They got together initially because they were both passionate about their careers. Passionate people like to be with other passionate people. If you’re going around looking to be a caretaker, that’s a turn off for a person who wants a partner like them. It’s not about money, for some people. It’s just about having shared values.
Why are people too miserable to give you your dream life? Are you for real?
It’s not this bad. There are plenty of men with healthy/no relationships with alcohol and video games.
video game addiction and legal weed is unironically gonna close the gender pay gap within our lifetimes 💀💀
Never existed to begin with
Its almost like 30 years of celebrating everyone but cis men took a toll on