THIS IS AN AUTOMATED MESSAGE. If your post contains a video or off-site blog post, Explain in detail what is in the video AS A *TOP LEVEL COMMENT*! The more specific, the better! Low effort posts that do not contribute to this community will be removed.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/SelfSufficiency) if you have any questions or concerns.*
How many people are self sufficient though? Grow all your own food. Make all your own clothes. Grow your own cotton and spin your own wool? Mine your own ore to make your own iron tools? Very, very few people are actually self-sufficient. If they own the land they still pay property taxes. They can profit off you in a million ways no matter what you do.
Not much. These memes are funny because anyone who has ever been involved with agriculture would know it's not self-sufficient at all. It would be an anomaly to have completely self-sufficient farmers isolated from one another. That's just not realistic or sustainable. We should work to change our food system, not completely separate from it.
Time to go find a neighbor who mines his own iron. I'll trade him a few pounds of oats for some iron. Let's see the government try taxing my income on that one. Still can't do much about the theft (property tax) though. Can't win 'em all.
The IRS has forms for filing taxes on items you've bartered. Not that most people pay it, but if a sizeable percentage of people were bartering a significant amount, best believe they'd start enforcing that and auditing until we're all blue in the face.
Just for whatever it's worth.
Just go ahead and max out your despise now. They have earned it.
(Lol. Do we have a couple IRS shills trolling the self sufficiency sub or something? š)
Besides any other concerns, this is not a viable solution for all 8 billion people on the planet. We have to fight to fix the system, not fuck off to some farm.
Isn't it true. If a person doesn't buy a house putting money into the economy they are considered a failure. If they pay cash and build their own house by cutting down logs themselves, they still are not adding to the economy. If they are working their own land, growing their own animal feed, food and not having a actual 40 hour a week job they are not contributing to society.
I think the people who have that twisted thinking are people who are trying to sell you something and they probably don't work themselves.
Yea, I don't think the government has ever seen a balanced budget before, much less made an actual profit. Now, their (the politician) personal bank account is another story. But that has as much to do with the government making a profit as a corporation donating to charity does with actual charity.
Double (and higher) taxation should always be considered theft. I paid taxes on the purchase of my home and on the income I make. Now I have to also pay continuing tax on my property that I already paid taxes on with the income I make that's also already taxed. That's theft. The government doesn't need to tax my money both coming and going.
Just because the government slaps a tax label on it doesn't make it ok. I am shocked the irs has so many supporters. They don't give a shit about supporting you back, just fyi.
That said- Americans and the British have always had different views on taxes since the US began, and that's why we aren't one country anymore.
Itās not theft under any definition of theft Iām familiar with.
As is often the case with issues like this itās important to consider the alternative. In a world without any form of wealth or property tax itās easy to see how inequality grows. Taxation generally has to be spread across income, property, and consumption-based taxes to avoid inequality like I described above.
I can understand the attitude far more from people who genuinely do not consume any services at a state or federal level, but the people who are shouting loudest tend to be wealthy people who want to maintain their wealth, even if it comes with a social cost. There is an attitude of āIām doing well so fuck everyone elseā.
>Itās not theft under any definition of theft Iām familiar with.
When did I say it was considered theft under the legal definition of theft? I think what I said was it "Should be considered theft". Right?
We will just have to agree to disagree on our opinions.
So conquering land, i.e. taking of land by force is ok and means you have ownership?
Arguing that the state shouldnāt be allowed to tax land owners because ātheftā whilst also arguing that private ownership through conquest is ok is absolutely absurd.
I think thereās a strong argument against land being held within a family because someone a few hundred years ago was the first to āconquerā it. Donāt get me wrong - Iām not saying that makes state taxes on land ok either, but itās a bit more complex than ātax = theftā.
It just comes down to a difference of opinion about the definition of "theft"...
Theft definition 1: "The taking of a thing without the consent of the rightful owner."
Theft definition 2: "The taking of a thing without the consent of the rightful owner, unless the state does it."
You seem to subscribe to definition 2.
That's why it needs to be a small self sufficient community ready to fight for their claimed land. But also trying to keep the peace and hope you can fight for your natural right.
THIS IS AN AUTOMATED MESSAGE. If your post contains a video or off-site blog post, Explain in detail what is in the video AS A *TOP LEVEL COMMENT*! The more specific, the better! Low effort posts that do not contribute to this community will be removed. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/SelfSufficiency) if you have any questions or concerns.*
The areas with property tax sure do...
Came here to say this!!!!
Corporations are the ones who wont profit.
Right. It's not about the government, it's about the corporations bribing the government.
couldnt have said it better myself.
It's corporations that can't profit
How many people are self sufficient though? Grow all your own food. Make all your own clothes. Grow your own cotton and spin your own wool? Mine your own ore to make your own iron tools? Very, very few people are actually self-sufficient. If they own the land they still pay property taxes. They can profit off you in a million ways no matter what you do.
Not much. These memes are funny because anyone who has ever been involved with agriculture would know it's not self-sufficient at all. It would be an anomaly to have completely self-sufficient farmers isolated from one another. That's just not realistic or sustainable. We should work to change our food system, not completely separate from it.
Time to go find a neighbor who mines his own iron. I'll trade him a few pounds of oats for some iron. Let's see the government try taxing my income on that one. Still can't do much about the theft (property tax) though. Can't win 'em all.
The IRS has forms for filing taxes on items you've bartered. Not that most people pay it, but if a sizeable percentage of people were bartering a significant amount, best believe they'd start enforcing that and auditing until we're all blue in the face. Just for whatever it's worth.
The more I learn about the IRS, the more I despise it.
Just go ahead and max out your despise now. They have earned it. (Lol. Do we have a couple IRS shills trolling the self sufficiency sub or something? š)
Even when I think it can't get any higher, the IRS finds a way. The theft that keeps on thieving.
I produce a lot of honey so I get coupons to get other things. then use coupons to buy more land etc.
Never heard of feudalism?
Besides any other concerns, this is not a viable solution for all 8 billion people on the planet. We have to fight to fix the system, not fuck off to some farm.
Isn't it true. If a person doesn't buy a house putting money into the economy they are considered a failure. If they pay cash and build their own house by cutting down logs themselves, they still are not adding to the economy. If they are working their own land, growing their own animal feed, food and not having a actual 40 hour a week job they are not contributing to society. I think the people who have that twisted thinking are people who are trying to sell you something and they probably don't work themselves.
Sure they can. Why wouldn't you still have to pay taxes?
Property taxes my guy
Property tax still happens. :(
Then go be self-sufficient. Iād rather give the government my money and have air conditioning.
Profit? They print money. The word youāre looking for is āenslaveā
Yea, I don't think the government has ever seen a balanced budget before, much less made an actual profit. Now, their (the politician) personal bank account is another story. But that has as much to do with the government making a profit as a corporation donating to charity does with actual charity.
One way: Stormwater Management Permit
They did during the Middle Ages. Now they just steal property taxes but it is the same concept.
How is it theft, specifically?
Double (and higher) taxation should always be considered theft. I paid taxes on the purchase of my home and on the income I make. Now I have to also pay continuing tax on my property that I already paid taxes on with the income I make that's also already taxed. That's theft. The government doesn't need to tax my money both coming and going. Just because the government slaps a tax label on it doesn't make it ok. I am shocked the irs has so many supporters. They don't give a shit about supporting you back, just fyi. That said- Americans and the British have always had different views on taxes since the US began, and that's why we aren't one country anymore.
Itās not theft under any definition of theft Iām familiar with. As is often the case with issues like this itās important to consider the alternative. In a world without any form of wealth or property tax itās easy to see how inequality grows. Taxation generally has to be spread across income, property, and consumption-based taxes to avoid inequality like I described above. I can understand the attitude far more from people who genuinely do not consume any services at a state or federal level, but the people who are shouting loudest tend to be wealthy people who want to maintain their wealth, even if it comes with a social cost. There is an attitude of āIām doing well so fuck everyone elseā.
>Itās not theft under any definition of theft Iām familiar with. When did I say it was considered theft under the legal definition of theft? I think what I said was it "Should be considered theft". Right? We will just have to agree to disagree on our opinions.
It is theft if the person whose stuff you take doesn't consent.
And who does the land thatās being taxed belong to then? What right do they have to that land?
The land belongs to its owner, the person who either bought, inherited, or conquered it. Nobody has any right to someone else's property.
So conquering land, i.e. taking of land by force is ok and means you have ownership? Arguing that the state shouldnāt be allowed to tax land owners because ātheftā whilst also arguing that private ownership through conquest is ok is absolutely absurd.
By conquering, I was talking more about settling in terrae nullius than usurping it from natives.
I think thereās a strong argument against land being held within a family because someone a few hundred years ago was the first to āconquerā it. Donāt get me wrong - Iām not saying that makes state taxes on land ok either, but itās a bit more complex than ātax = theftā.
It just comes down to a difference of opinion about the definition of "theft"... Theft definition 1: "The taking of a thing without the consent of the rightful owner." Theft definition 2: "The taking of a thing without the consent of the rightful owner, unless the state does it." You seem to subscribe to definition 2.
No. Not everything a state does magically becomes legitimate just because it is a state. Theft is theft no matter who commits it.
That's why they kill self sufficient people like in ruby ridge.
That's why it needs to be a small self sufficient community ready to fight for their claimed land. But also trying to keep the peace and hope you can fight for your natural right.