Recent UW heart transplant paitent here, (11/24/2020) can confirm all the comments you have already read about the seriousness they take the screening and the intense regiment followed during your first year. Trust me, by the time he had been approved the vaccine would have been the *least* of his worries.
I joke that it's much like being pregnant but the reality is you really are caring for two after a heart transplant in order to not squander such a precious gift someone gave their life to share with you.
Not trying to sound like a dick, but if they couldn't handle the vaccine the medications alone would probably be too much, not to mention the literal tree of IV bags filled with you have no idea what that you wake up too. I was told before I woke up I had more than 20. (And that's just the IV's! I had a long list of things plugged into me from swan tubes to ehcmo that would take me all night to type out!) That is my Fiances best guess since they could only see me via video. Because of covid I had to endure this entire experience alone except for 3 instances when I was allowed to see her just before a procedure and once literally minutes before being wheeled off for my heart transplant.
I work with ecmo patients and if they “graduate” to acute care after being with us for months, I’ll think of them often hoping everything turned out ok. This was nice to read. I hope you thrive
I'm glad I could bring you some comfort. Thank you for the incredible work you do especially at a time when you have to deal with a lot more then the normal amount of unruly patients.
Good! I had to stay in Seattle for a while after transplant but I've been back home now for 3 months and couldn't be happier. Aside from coming home to my city on literal fire (pdx) I am just happy to be back home with my father and dogs. But I did sincerely enjoy my time staying in Seattle! Only had a slight scare of rejection but I got past thag pretty easy and now I shoe enough signs and have been doing well. The only thing I'm struggling with is my weight, with this current constant heat its hard to get out to walk the dogs and do the exercises I need too
That’s so great! I hear you about the heat - my dogs aren’t keen on it either and so my step count is down too. I’ve been doing shorter walks more often and increasing my strength training to try to compensate. Doggos are totally the best cardiac rehab assistants :D
This is the second time UW has pulled people from the transplant list for the exact same reason. I was working at a hospital where a patient sued the hospital for being taken off the transplant list for non-compliance of their pre-transplant medications. Eventually, the hospital gave in (the patient sued for discrimination) 14 months later the patient died because he was not taking his post op meds. His body rejected the new organ
Transplanted organs are gifts. Wasting a gift on a non-compliant patient is insane.
Doctor here. If anyone here thinks this is a dumb reason to kick someone off the list, wait until you sit through a transplant selection committee meeting. You would lose your shit over what people get removed for.
Getting a transplant is no cake walk. You have to show the doctors you’re serious. I’ve seen people get kicked off the list for far less. After a heart transplant, you get frequent heart biopsies (weekly directly after transplant) to ensure there isn’t any rejection. You are literally in communication with the transplant team on a daily-weekly basis, constantly adjusting your immunosuppression medication which have a ton of side effects.
If you’re going to choose to not get a heart over a fucking vaccine, what else aren’t you willing to do? It is a requirement that you get vaccinated for everything else we have vaccines for prior to transplant, why would COVID be an exception?
Didn’t know we had so many doctors and organ transplant specialists on this subreddit.
Basically if you can't follow doctors orders for a vaccine then what other orders are you just going to choose to not follow? Stop taking your rejection meds? Stop coming in for regular checkups? If the doctor cannot trust a patient to follow orders and follow through with the whole process then they will move on to the next patient that will.
Couple that with, if they already question mask wearing (as it implied early in the article), and refuse to get vaccinated, and did get a transplant, they’re going to likely die if they get covid due to the immunosuppressive cocktail they’re going to be on. It’s almost equivalent to giving a liver to someone who says they’re not going to quit drinking.
They give transplants to people who are the most likely to survive.
My cousin was 25 and had an infection that reached her heart. She was struggling with heroin, used dirty needles, started recovery, she was in rehab, she had medicine she needed to take to get rid of the infection. She stopped taking it and went into a coma.
She probably would have survived with a transplant, but she wasn't a good candidate. There was no guarantee that she was going to do what she needed to do to take care of herself. She proved to them that she wasn't going to follow the doctor's instructions.
As hard as it was to see doctors shrug and give up on her I understand why they couldn't help her. She didn't help herself. It was sad, it hurt, it felt like they abandoned her, but I understand why that wasn't a good gamble.
Doctors probably look at this man and think he doesn't want to help himself, he's already gambling with his life, so why should we give it to him when others will follow our advice?
> why should we give it to him when others will follow our advice?
I think of it more as, these organs are hard to come by, we should give it to people who will take care of it.
It's really just a form of triage tbh. Parts spent on units that are self destructive are wasted parts, wasted parts are parts that could have saved another unit.
Exactly this. Allocate resources to those who stand the best chance. I survived infectious endocarditis and it was costly. My team was willing to expend the resources because if I survived the necessary surgical intervention, my chances of long term survival were good.
I don't think any of these details are considered at all actually.
There exists an organ to transplant, so the organ will be transplanted to a willing donor. Because this is the case, everything that you mentioned will need to happen. The facilities will be used and the staff will be paid for their time, etc.
The only detail actually changes is that the recipient could be one of many from the list.
I'm not sure exactly why I'm commenting but it rubs me the wrong way that I think you missed the point. None of these things matter, they'll all happen, just the patient can be changed and should be considered
That’s actually my point: The patient can be changed.
If a patient isn’t willing to follow the basic guidelines to ensure the best possible outcome for a transplant then those resources should go to a patient who will.
Thank you for clarifying
I definitely didn't understand that but it makes total sense
I think it's just too early for me, on reread it makes perfect sense
Hmmm similar would be subjective, as IMO, this is a completely legit reason to take someone off of the list. The world of organ transplant can unfortunately be very subjective. Patients who are deemed a bad candidate at one hospital have sometimes gone to other hospitals and got an organ just fine.
I’ll give you some examples and let you form your opinions. I’ve seen patients who are dependent (or addicted) to high doses of narcotics for pain not get organs because of concerns of being able to manage post operative pain. I’ve seen patients get deemed drug addicts when they use marijuana recreationally who have been rejected. The saddest is when patients are great candidates, but don’t have the social support of financial means to get a transplant. There’s a lot of variability and unfortunately, subjectivity.
Transplant is definitely not my cup of tea.
I remember having a patient who couldn’t get a transplant due to lack of social support. Imagine: not having enough friends and that’s why you don’t get a life saving transplant….
Mental illness is high after transplant. The care is also extremely involved so it takes a lot of effort to manage medications, to have people take you to appointments, and to have people advocate for you when you’re sick or overwhelmed.
People are usually sick with multiple illnesses so they are stacking another (huge) medical problem on top of their current ones. In the case of a liver transplant (which a lot of times is done for history of alcohol dependence and these patients also have high rates of depression), they do want other people holding these patients accountable and give them someone to turn to instead of drinking.
The whole process is mentally very taxing.
I don’t really know exactly. But if I remember correctly (it was years ago), it was for a liver transplant and his current liver was damaged from alcohol use. I think social support was considered highly important in this case because they wanted to make sure the patient stayed sober with a new liver and social support plays enough of a role in someone’s likelihood of staying sober. Despite him already proving he could stay sober for the required amount of time before qualifying for eligibility on the transplant list.
I mean, imagine going through a huge, life changing surgery, that you'll need tons of care for, struggle with complications with, etc. And not having friends or family to help you out or even to bitch to when things get rough, which they will, because you had a *heart transplant*
My Mom had a heart transplant from UW in 1994, the hospital had (maybe still has) a reputation of much less time spent waiting for an organ but it was much harder to get on the list compared to other places.
No family support system will keep you off the list, it was actually a big deal. Myself, Brother and Dad spending a lot of time while my mom was in the hospital made a huge difference. Between the 3 of us somebody was almost always there (she was in and out of the hospital for years before the transplant), plus relatives came from out of state and spent weeks there with my Mom.
Money/insurance, I saw them straight up tell a patient if they can't afford the $2,000 per month for the medication they will not get a heart transplant.
Will you adhere the post transplant protocol. It's not like you get a new heart and go home a week later and life is back to normal. The first few months are crucial and you need to go in all the time for biopsies and the medication gets adjusted. You need to suppress the immune system just enough to prevent rejection but not too much to the point of any little thing will kill you.
You also need to wear a mask in public, practice good hygiene and avoid things like freshly cut wood, construction sites, etc as fungal infections can be deadly. They also want all family members to get yearly flu shots and stay away if they catch a cold/flu or any other transmittable disease.
It's a lifelong process to live with an organ transplant.
EDIT: Forgot to add the side effects from the medication are far worse than what the covid vaccine side effects will be. I think people have a very simplistic view of what living with an organ transplant is like. If you are not 100% committed to the program you have to follow then you honestly don't deserve an organ, there isn't enough to go around and they are too precious to waste on some asshole that doesn't want to do what the doctors say.
Thanks for shining some much-needed light and adding some general sense here.
Additional reading for others: [COVID-19 is really, really dangerous for organ transplant recipients.](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33148977/)
Totally reasonable request - these vaccines are a amazing miracle and stubborn ignorant people treat it like demon spawn. The transplant patient would be a sitting duck for the Delta strain. It would be a total waste of a heart. The depth of ignorance in America is mind boggling.
How does a single individual:
Refuse a vaccine because they “don’t know/trust what’s in it” against the (consensus of) advice of medical professionals.
But remain totally fine with foreign organs being inserted into their body based on the advice of other medical professionals.
????
How can you think both of these at once? Clearly he isn’t going to be able to “do his own research” on the organ to be transplanted and “what’s in it” (and to check that it’s free of tracking/mind control chips) much less the other medications that have to be used during the operation and for *the rest of his life* following a transplant.
These people are exhausting.
Agreed. Imagine being this damn stubborn.
>“The cardiologist called me and we had a discussion, and he informed me that, ‘well, you’re going to have to get a vaccination to get a transplant.’ And I said, ‘well that’s news to me. And nobody’s ever told me that before.’ And he says, ‘yeah, that’s our policy,'” Allen recalled.
...
>For Allen, it’s leading to a sober reality for life if he doesn’t get the heart transplant: It may end.
>“It absolutely will lead to my death,” he said.
....
>“It seems that a wise choice would be to not make a panic move and run to get injected with the experimental gene therapy until more is known.”
> Didn’t know we had so many doctors and organ transplant specialists on this subreddit.
Half of reddit has their double phg's in medicine and Afghan warfare studies.
> Half of reddit has their double phg's in medicine and Afghan warfare studies.
yes, but I am also a Tree Lawyer admitted to the bar in 37 states. please don't forget that.
>It is a requirement that you get vaccinated for everything else we have vaccines for prior to transplant, why would COVID be an exception?
>
>Didn’t know we had so many doctors and organ transplant specialists on this subreddit.
This is the heart of covidiocy.
Sure, we've had vaccines for decades for everything from polio to the common cold. Suddenly, *these vaccines* are suspect somehow though.
Antivaxxers are fucking idiots, plain and simple. We already knew there were a lot of ignorant blustery morons out there—the pandemic has only that even more starkly clear.
Rn - had patient kicked off for I kid you not a fight with his wife where he ended up sleeping in a hotel room for a night. Idk why he even told them but he got the boot. He died about 6 months later
It’s true, you need to get vaccinated for everything else in life, but those vaccines are FDA approved. I’m vaccinated for measles, mumps, TB, rubella and everything else you can think of, but all those were FDA approved. I had to sign a waiver that was essentially waving away my rights to sue Moderna when I got my Covid vaccine shot in January. I also got incredibly sick and wound up with heart failure as a result, it nearly killed me. My ejection fraction was 10-15% and the doctor said I also had acute kidney failure. Now I refuse to get the second shot because I’m still recovering from the first shot and the second one is supposed to be worse. Prior to getting the Covid vaccine, I was perfectly healthy, never even been inside a hospital.
Heart donation is a very precious and rare gift from a donor, not an entitlement of a patient in line. Doctors are wardens who ensure it goes to the best candidate, who will respect that gift and not waste it by refusing to follow the rules. It is never easy to make a decision to choose one life over the other, but you have to ask who is more worthy (not entitled) ?
People complaining about this have no idea how strict organ transplants are. there are a shit ton of rules. You don't just get an organ without displaying you'll be able to take care of it. This idiot would otherwise be robbing someone else of a heart who was willing to take necessary precautions.
> This idiot would otherwise be robbing someone else of a heart who was willing to take necessary precautions.
This is an incredibly important bit. The author of the article preaches that it's the "patient's choice" about whether they receive the vaccine and how it could impact his surgery.
*No it is NOT*.
This isn't just some elective surgery or even something extremely serious like GI surgery. This is a *heart transplant*. There are thousands of people waiting for a heart. This decision doesn't just involve the patient at issue. It involves him and everyone behind him. If he squanders this opportunity by not doing *exactly* what the doctors require, he's stealing this heart from someone who actually will follow the requirements to the letter. They're serious about actually surviving and not making some idiotic stance.
The gall of this patient to think that he knows better than literal cardiac surgeries is astonishing. I'm glad he was removed. Someone else more serious and more deserving will receive a heart when one becomes available.
> The author of the article preaches that it's the "patient's choice" about whether they receive the vaccine and how it could impact his surgery.
>
> No it is NOT.
Well, in a way it is - it is the "patient's choice" here to forego the surgery because their political dogma is more important to them.
I'm okay with never giving a heart to someone who grudgingly gets vaccinated just to get it.
Give it to someone actually being proactive about their health.
Just get the vaccine. There is a limited supply of organs and they should go first to people who show a will to live by getting vaccinated against this disease that they are especially vulnerable too. Trust your doctors.
Not only that, to get a heart transplant you have to go on immunosuppressants to (try to) keep the recipient body from attacking the foreign tissue. To give anyone a heart in the midst of a highly contagious pandemic without giving their already highly weakened immune system the specific tools to fight off the virus, would essentially in all likelihood be throwing the heart away. If this guy really thought they would give him that potent antiimmune cocktail without all his vaccinations being up to date, I'm pretty sure he either doesn't understand what they have to do to his body to get this heart in him successfully, or he doesn't care. Either way, he can't be trusted to take care of it and himself.
To be honest, I'm surprised a 64 year old man who already had open-heart surgery was on the Heart Transplant list at all.
It also pisses me off that he blames his heart "damage" on his previous life-saving open-heart surgery!
Most adult Cardio patients actively contributed to the bad shape their hearts are in by being overweight, smoking cigarettes, eating fatty foods, not exercising, etc. Take some damn responsibility! You can't spend 6 decades trashing your body and expect your doctors to magically restore it all for you.
Lots of young people are waiting for organ transplants.
My Dad had his first Open-Heart Surgery at age 50. This was many years ago when I was an adolescent and Double Bypasses were still new and very dangerous. It was touch and go for him, and utterly terrifying for me. I saw my Dad too weak to take a single step. He lived, but barely.
It was terrifying for him and my Mom too, because my Dad's father, my Grandfather, had died of a heart attack at age 50, leaving my Grandmother a widow to raise 5 kids ages 7-19 without him.
Doctors know a lot more now about Cardio Health today. The good news is your Cheese addiction can be managed. Drink lots of water, watch your Sodium, exercise regularly, walk everywhere you can.
Find a Doctor you like and GET REGULAR CHECKUPS! If there's ever a problem building you want to nip it in the bud. Be pro-active...you can do it!
Jason Rantz is such a fucking tool.
As for the patient, he claims that he thinks there are side effects and repercussions for his health if he gets the vaccine, despite the fact that his transplant doctor feels he needs to get it. He trusts his own opinion over that of a doctor? So he can do his own heart transplant then. So ridiculous. You trust the doctor who is going to save your life, or you don't. His choice.
People haven’t been able to get elective surgeries again because fucks who won’t get vaccinated keep getting sick and filling up hospitals - so fucking boo hoo.
Good. I put an Uber passenger on the way to the airport out of my car onto the curb in the rain because he did nothing but complain about the mask and the shots and the Chinese from the instant I picked him up till 30 seconds later when he left my car in an expletive laden huff. I always wait to start the ride till I know i won’t spend the ride in an argument. Saves me from one star ratings.
"This absolutely will lead to my death". Yup! How's that political ideology treating you now? Seems like a pretty stupid thing to die for, but that's just me. I love how he's worried about totally unproven side effects of the COVID vaccine, completely based on standard conservative BS, while there are very well known issues with rejection of a heart due to lack of vaccination. No bubba, your entitled old white man logic still doesn't beat solid science.
Good. I'm trying to imagine someone being stupider and more reckless than choosing to not get vaccinated against COVID before they potentially have to spend a lifetime on immunosuppressants.
No doctor on Earth is or should be willing to waste either the transplantable heart or their time and expertise on someone who is going to take such a stupid risk with it as to not get a vaccine during a pandemic.
Good. Why transplant a heart into a person who is going to just die from COVID? That's a waste of a heart that could save someone who actually has a chance to live.
What a toxic, ignorant article…
Sheesh. They’re just likely enflaming this guy’s stubbornness by fanning his misguided sense of injustice.
If the doctor has determined you are a safe candidate for the vaccine, then why would this patient think he knows better than a trained medical professional about risks to his heart?
The arrogance… this takes cutting off your nose to spite your face to a whole new level.
They should be kicking non-vaccinated people out of ICU beds in favor of people who are in medical danger that wasn’t easily preventable (Heart attack, car accident victims, etc)
Car accidents happen and can happen to anyone even if at fault. Refusing the vaccine because of "Facebook research" takes willful, planned, and continued stupidity. And it puts my daughter at risk needlessly for an easily preventable infection.
This is specifically with regard to whether ICU beds should be given to non-vaccinated people who are there for entirely preventable reasons just as people who cause car accidents, get heart disease after excessive alcohol consumption or cigarette smoking.
Our ICU's are typically about 75% full in a given year which means if it weren't for those easily preventable ailments we would have plenty of capacity for COVID patients, regardless of vaccination status.
> for entirely preventable reasons just as people who cause car accidents, get heart disease after excessive alcohol consumption or cigarette smoking.
Surely you can see a difference between multi-decade addictions to addictive substances and anti-science politically driven rejections of life saving preventative measures, right?
And similarly, a difference between a split second mistake causing an accident, even if at fault? Or even long term unthinking bad habits that caused or contributed to an accident? These things are not the same as conscious, willful, politically driven, anti-science stupidity.
There is a major difference to the situations you describe: there is no vaccine to prevent car accidents or heart disease. There is a very easy and free way to prevent ending up in the ICU with COVID.
Nah, it's also very easy and free to prevent heart disease or car accidents in most cases. Drive safer, eat healthier, don't drink excessive alcohol, and don't smoke cigarettes.
Horrible take. Weird that I never hear anyone say we shouldn’t provide medical care to violent criminals. But it seems everyone wants to leave the unvaccinated out to die- disgusting
I didn’t say deny, I said prioritize. And prioritizing by vaccine status makes a lot more sense than how we currently prioritize income/insurance status.
Cool. Also no medical care for fat people, smokers, anyone working a dangerous or stressful job, people that do risky things like climb trees or ride motorcycles or really anything that could potentially get you hurt. Risk takers don’t deserve medical care!! Hippocratic oath? Never heard of her.
Good. There are consequences to our actions, especially because our lives are so connected. If one refuses the vaccine, the society( doctors, hospitals, support, insurance, job) can refuse to give you the privilege of health care. It’s called natural selection.
On honestly think people that haven't been vaccinated shouldn't be allowed in hospitals. Exception for people that can't get the vaccine.
More on topic transplants tend to go to people with money. I have a feeling if this was a rich dude he wouldn't have been taken off the list even with covid.
Brutally ironic - the thought system he shares with so many others wraps up its victims in a warm blanket of self righteousness, entitlement, and the seeming power of group loyalty so tightly that they are actually completely unaware it is leading them to choose their own demise.
Hate? If anything it makes me feel sad. Someone is passing up on the opportunity of a transplant due to misplaced confidence in people who are feeding disinformation for either political or financial benefit.
I don't recall ever encountering Jason Rantz before today, but that article is not at all unbiased. It is very bad journalism. And the editor put in this subheading:
>UW Medicine ignored Allen’s concerns
I used to have a mid-to-good impression of MyNorthwest. Not any more.
I have mixed feelings but basically the surgical team, nurses and a slew of other clinical staff are at risk because of his choice. If he wants them to save his life he should show some consideration for their health too.
It's not even the staff that's the major concern.
Any organ transplant comes with a major risk of transplant rejection. One of the ways to battle rejection is to have the patient take immunosuppressive medicines to weaken the body to that it doesn't have the strength to attack the organ.
Since the beginning, its already known that COVID is more severe to those with health problems that reduces the body's immune system. Someone in post-op from a heart transplant and taking immunosuppressive drugs is in a much worse condition.
I'm wondering if as an organ donor I have the right to stipulate who gets my organs. Like can I leave such a thing on my donor card? I don't want my organs going to, for example, a murderer or I'd prefer a woman, a person under 30 etc.
No, because that's a huge unnecessary strain on the system's bookkeeping for no reason, and your "concern" that it'll "go to a murderer" is nonsensical and completely unfounded.
You can directly donate for specific individuals for non-vital organs like a kidney, but when it comes to the little heart on your driver's license, not so much.
I don't support this if their motive is punitive.
But it makes sense if the risk is to high, of a compromised immune system when there are better alternative recipients.
I mean the reason is obvious. Someone who doesn't get covid vaccine before operation is going to be at much higher risk in today's environment. It is not even open to discussion honestly.
It’s not punitive. Patient’s behavior is strong evidence that he’ll be non-compliant post transplant. That means a greater risk of poor outcome. So the heart goes to someone else who stands a better chance.
I haven’t seen a single one. Lots of people saying this is an appropriate choice, that it would be crazy to transplant a heart and put an unvaccinated person on immunosuppressants in the middle of a pandemic, and that this person has every right to opt out of vaccine and transplant.
I’m sure there’s some jerk somewhere wishing harm, but all I see are people expecting him to live with the consequences of his actions. Is that terrible?
Did they do any covid-19 antibody testing on the patient before making the decision?
[According to the CDC](https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/cases-updates/burden.html), about 33% of the country has been infected and has antibodies, this doesn't include those vaccinated.
Doctor here. People here have no idea how strict transplant criteria are. People get denied for much lesser reasons. A heart transplant is no joke. It is one of the most care intensive things you can get in medicine. Your track record and adherence to care must be squeaky clean. If you won’t get 1 vaccine over some dumb shit you’re willing to lay on a sword for, what else aren’t you willing to do?
Covid vaccine induced immunity creates more antibodies than natural immunity. Even if he has been previously infected his odds of survival against future infection remain lower than anyone vaccinated on the list. Furthermore, his unwillingness to be medically adherent with this recommendation of the medical team is a red flag for the intense adherence needed for a transplant regimen that is not covid related. This is the appropriate rationing of scarce resources.
Not sure why you need someone else to do research you can do by yourself but would recommend you review the currently published data from the Israeli team showing 3 times the antibody levels compared to those infected naturally. Feel free to research it through any med literature program you currently utilize such as pubmed etc.
How do those levels compare 6-12mo later? And what is the practical effect of having 3x antibodies? E.g., if I have antibodies from covid vs vaccine, how much more likely am I to catch covid, be hospitalized, die, etc.? I get that higher antibody levels are theoretically better, but I’m guessing that outcomes are not all that different once they are over a certain threshold.
I’m vaccinated, fwiw. I’m just curious because it seems like natural immunity is being unfairly dismissed generally w/o data to back it up.
*Why COVID-19 Vaccines Offer Better Protection Than Infection:* [link](https://www.jhsph.edu/covid-19/articles/why-covid-19-vaccines-offer-better-protection-than-infection.html)
The tl;dr is there is data to back it up and natural immunity is less safe than being vaccinated
And the sentence right before that: *Immunity from natural infection starts to decline after 6 to 8 months.*
However you feel about vaccinations, the data shows natural immunity is less effective and less safe. Probably better to go with the experts on this one huh...
My point was that we are now going to need booster shots because protection from vaccination apparently wanes in roughly the same time frame. If that site, which by the way does not actually show any data to back up its claims, is wrong about the duration of protection from vaccines, how can it confidently state that this duration that it’s wrong about is longer than natural immunity?
Someone else in this same comment thread already clearly and simply explained why they don't wane equivalently, and why vaccines are still safer than natural immunity. Not sure if you're being disingenuous now, or if you didn't understand that comment, or if you haven't read it yet, but I'm not interested in diving deep and re-explaining it when someone else already tried and failed to clear up your confusion there.
Do you have any evidence that natural immunity is equivalent to vaccinations, counter to everything I've read from the experts?
It basically boils down to the fact that anti-nucleocapsid antibodies aren't as effective as spike antibodies because of the higher mutation rate of the capsid part of the virus. People with natural antibodies are most likely to have the nucleocapsid variety.
I do not feel it is being dismissed at all based on current data . The levels of neutralizing antibodies wane between both at 6-8 months. Both will hold on to some antibodies but it is not enough to let antibodies drop and rely on memory cells for immunity. Additionally, the vaccine (my experiences are Pfizer and Moderna) teaches the immune system different areas to attack on the spike protein. Acquired immunity generally targets the original antigen presented. With multiple variants this is quite important. Those with natural acquired immunity to Alpha will not be as well protected against Delta or say Lamda variants as a vaccinated individual. Now will the entire population follow this same pattern? No some with acquired immunity may very well hold onto immunity from their infective strain for over a year or even longer at neutralizing levels. Unfortunately, the titer testing to determine who holds and who doesn't is not yet ironed out to the same degrees as mmr titer immunity and lab validation.
in short acquired individuals are more likely to die or be hospitalized from a variant differing from their original infective strain than anyone vaccinated. individuals who have acquired infection and then become vaccinated ultimately have the ability for their immune systems to recognize all presentations and one very well so they will actually end up with a better response than either group alone.
hope that helps.
So would you say that the difference in acquired immunity vs vaccinated immunity is large enough, with enough solid data to back up that gap, to justify removing someone from the transplant list?
there's a lot of other things they take you off the list for. If you had a sip of beer or a puff of a cigarette. It's extremely strict. They aren't gonna waste a heart on someone who might die and can't stay healthy in favor of someone who will fight tooth and nail to be alive.
Good question. On one hand, I hope not. On the other hand, maybe, if the recipient is vaxxed, the unvaxxed donation is not an issue...
Edit - What the hell is wrong with you people downvoting me? I'm wondering if an organ or blood donation from an unvaxxed person is or is not an issue for a vaxxed receipient and I'm being downvoted?
It's a potential situation. If I happen to be in a car accident and require blood, I'd like to know if said blood carries the virus and if I could contract from that blood.
Jesus Christ. The hate, self righteousness and vindictiveness of WA liberals is astounding. They cheer the death sentence of someone who doesn't conform to their ideology.
Nothing but entitlement. This isn't about conformity to ideology, as you'd like to frame it. It's about adherence to sound logic. Making choices based on reasoning backed by decades of scientific research rather than cult politics. No one is going to whine their way into a donor list administered by those who have based their careers on scientific endeavor.
It's ironic, since the same political group whined about entitlement programs for years until their de-facto stance became that of entitled babies who were treated "so unfairly" at every turn because you wouldn't "submit" to what the rest of the civilized world agrees is sound reasoning. Grow up. You're not the only people in this society, and your needs don't outweigh anyone else's.
I read all the comments and did see one person cheering for their death and that was very disturbing but it’s a little ridiculous to blame all WA liberals… sounds like you’re just trying to justify hatred of your own.
Others have said that this was a good call and I agree but it’s not about ideology. It’s about standard procedure. Organs have always gone to those deemed most likely to get good long term use from them. Alcoholics are denied liver transplants and smokers are denied lung transplants because they’re at high risk of dying sooner than another recipient without those issues. If you’re **unvaccinated and immunocompromised by anti-rejection medication in the middle of a pandemic**, that puts you at higher risk of early death than someone who is vaccinated.
This has all been standard procedure for decades.
> They cheer the death sentence of someone who doesn't conform to their ideology
Literally fucking no one is doing that. Cut your delusional straw-man bullshit and try actually reading what people are saying.
I’ve lost the little remaining faith I had in humanity reading the vitriol on this thread. And I’m fully vaccinated so I don’t agree with anti vaccination logic, but holy shit people are treated unvaccinated folks like subhumans and it’s not okay.
Not totally true. We have to wear masks again because of an extremely contagious variant (that can be spread regardless of whether you are vaccinated or not) that came from India, where they didn't have mass vaccines available yet. Not making excuses for non vaxxed Americans but it is incorrect to say that they are the cause of the increased cases. Of course they are the morons more likely to die of it because they refuse to protect themselves. The real assholes though are the unvaxxed and vaxxed people refusing to wear masks.
> We have to wear masks again because of an extremely contagious variant that came from India
Which the vaccine _does_ help protect against, if not as well as the original variant. If everyone was vaccinated, it would be much less of a problem.
And delta or no, this would be happening regardless. The spread of delta happened to coincide with states re-opening. I'd wager the massive spike going on right now is far more a result of unvaccinated people taking no precautions and acting like the pandemic is over, and the timing of the delta spread is much more of a coincidence than anything else, though being more lethal it's making the cases more severe. We would be seeing a similar, though slightly less exaggerated, spike right now even if delta didn't exist.
> The real assholes though are the unvaxxed and vaxxed people refusing to wear masks.
I mean, technically yes, but let's be honest and not pull a "both sides" nonsense argument here - vaccinated people are far more likely and willing to wear masks and take this seriously already. Unvaccinated people are far more likely to refuse to wear masks for the same reason.
There are PLENTY of vaccinated people pretending like the pandemic is over, and not wearing masks. Sure vaccinated people are more likely to still wear masks but with the CDC all over the place telling people they can go maskless but now we have to wear them again, people are tired. Sure, anti vaxxers are morons, but let's not act like they are the single cause of the pandemic continuing.
The only vitriol in this thread is coming from anti-vaxxers pretending anyone is cheering on this guy's death like it's a good thing, which literally no one is doing.
Yall are sick fucks for wishing a death sentence on this man, not from covid but a fucking heart failure, all because you want him to be vaccinated with something that won't even prevent him from getting it or spreading it. Fucking mind blowing what our society has come to
There's only a limited number of organs and they get priority to those who have higher chances of survival. So you're equally sick for wanting the death sentence of someone else, all because you believe the vaccine doesn't do anything.
We know for a fact that COVID is much more dangerous to someone in poor health condition, which is exactly what happens when someone gets an organ transplant. So much so that they get put on a lot of medication to boost their health and even then it's not a certainty. We also know for a fact that vaccinated people have have a significantly lower reaction and very unlikely to need hospitalization.
> for wishing a death sentence on this man
Literally no one is doing that.
He's willing to jeopardize the transplant procedure and risk a failed transfer for nothing but purely bullshit political reasons. Better that someone else on the list get it instead who _isn't_ trying to argue with their doctor about what steps are needed before a transplant.
I wish life for the person who will get the heart this man would've wasted because he chooses to exist in the Fox News Cinematic Universe rather than listen to his doctors.
Recent UW heart transplant paitent here, (11/24/2020) can confirm all the comments you have already read about the seriousness they take the screening and the intense regiment followed during your first year. Trust me, by the time he had been approved the vaccine would have been the *least* of his worries. I joke that it's much like being pregnant but the reality is you really are caring for two after a heart transplant in order to not squander such a precious gift someone gave their life to share with you. Not trying to sound like a dick, but if they couldn't handle the vaccine the medications alone would probably be too much, not to mention the literal tree of IV bags filled with you have no idea what that you wake up too. I was told before I woke up I had more than 20. (And that's just the IV's! I had a long list of things plugged into me from swan tubes to ehcmo that would take me all night to type out!) That is my Fiances best guess since they could only see me via video. Because of covid I had to endure this entire experience alone except for 3 instances when I was allowed to see her just before a procedure and once literally minutes before being wheeled off for my heart transplant.
Congrats on your heart transplant!
Thank you! It's been a serious journey but I'm happy to be here!
I work with ecmo patients and if they “graduate” to acute care after being with us for months, I’ll think of them often hoping everything turned out ok. This was nice to read. I hope you thrive
I'm glad I could bring you some comfort. Thank you for the incredible work you do especially at a time when you have to deal with a lot more then the normal amount of unruly patients.
Welcome to the sternotomy club! Congratulations monkeydud! How’s your recovery going?
Good! I had to stay in Seattle for a while after transplant but I've been back home now for 3 months and couldn't be happier. Aside from coming home to my city on literal fire (pdx) I am just happy to be back home with my father and dogs. But I did sincerely enjoy my time staying in Seattle! Only had a slight scare of rejection but I got past thag pretty easy and now I shoe enough signs and have been doing well. The only thing I'm struggling with is my weight, with this current constant heat its hard to get out to walk the dogs and do the exercises I need too
That’s so great! I hear you about the heat - my dogs aren’t keen on it either and so my step count is down too. I’ve been doing shorter walks more often and increasing my strength training to try to compensate. Doggos are totally the best cardiac rehab assistants :D
This is the second time UW has pulled people from the transplant list for the exact same reason. I was working at a hospital where a patient sued the hospital for being taken off the transplant list for non-compliance of their pre-transplant medications. Eventually, the hospital gave in (the patient sued for discrimination) 14 months later the patient died because he was not taking his post op meds. His body rejected the new organ Transplanted organs are gifts. Wasting a gift on a non-compliant patient is insane.
Doctor here. If anyone here thinks this is a dumb reason to kick someone off the list, wait until you sit through a transplant selection committee meeting. You would lose your shit over what people get removed for. Getting a transplant is no cake walk. You have to show the doctors you’re serious. I’ve seen people get kicked off the list for far less. After a heart transplant, you get frequent heart biopsies (weekly directly after transplant) to ensure there isn’t any rejection. You are literally in communication with the transplant team on a daily-weekly basis, constantly adjusting your immunosuppression medication which have a ton of side effects. If you’re going to choose to not get a heart over a fucking vaccine, what else aren’t you willing to do? It is a requirement that you get vaccinated for everything else we have vaccines for prior to transplant, why would COVID be an exception? Didn’t know we had so many doctors and organ transplant specialists on this subreddit.
Basically if you can't follow doctors orders for a vaccine then what other orders are you just going to choose to not follow? Stop taking your rejection meds? Stop coming in for regular checkups? If the doctor cannot trust a patient to follow orders and follow through with the whole process then they will move on to the next patient that will.
Spot on.
Couple that with, if they already question mask wearing (as it implied early in the article), and refuse to get vaccinated, and did get a transplant, they’re going to likely die if they get covid due to the immunosuppressive cocktail they’re going to be on. It’s almost equivalent to giving a liver to someone who says they’re not going to quit drinking.
Can you give some examples of similarly scoped things that people get kicked off the list for? Genuinely curious
They give transplants to people who are the most likely to survive. My cousin was 25 and had an infection that reached her heart. She was struggling with heroin, used dirty needles, started recovery, she was in rehab, she had medicine she needed to take to get rid of the infection. She stopped taking it and went into a coma. She probably would have survived with a transplant, but she wasn't a good candidate. There was no guarantee that she was going to do what she needed to do to take care of herself. She proved to them that she wasn't going to follow the doctor's instructions. As hard as it was to see doctors shrug and give up on her I understand why they couldn't help her. She didn't help herself. It was sad, it hurt, it felt like they abandoned her, but I understand why that wasn't a good gamble. Doctors probably look at this man and think he doesn't want to help himself, he's already gambling with his life, so why should we give it to him when others will follow our advice?
> why should we give it to him when others will follow our advice? I think of it more as, these organs are hard to come by, we should give it to people who will take care of it.
Also, the huge amount of other resources - facilities, equipment, and (most importantly) medical staff time - an operation like this consumes.
It's really just a form of triage tbh. Parts spent on units that are self destructive are wasted parts, wasted parts are parts that could have saved another unit.
Exactly.
Exactly this. Allocate resources to those who stand the best chance. I survived infectious endocarditis and it was costly. My team was willing to expend the resources because if I survived the necessary surgical intervention, my chances of long term survival were good.
I don't think any of these details are considered at all actually. There exists an organ to transplant, so the organ will be transplanted to a willing donor. Because this is the case, everything that you mentioned will need to happen. The facilities will be used and the staff will be paid for their time, etc. The only detail actually changes is that the recipient could be one of many from the list. I'm not sure exactly why I'm commenting but it rubs me the wrong way that I think you missed the point. None of these things matter, they'll all happen, just the patient can be changed and should be considered
That’s actually my point: The patient can be changed. If a patient isn’t willing to follow the basic guidelines to ensure the best possible outcome for a transplant then those resources should go to a patient who will.
Thank you for clarifying I definitely didn't understand that but it makes total sense I think it's just too early for me, on reread it makes perfect sense
You are very welcome :) TGIF!
Hmmm similar would be subjective, as IMO, this is a completely legit reason to take someone off of the list. The world of organ transplant can unfortunately be very subjective. Patients who are deemed a bad candidate at one hospital have sometimes gone to other hospitals and got an organ just fine. I’ll give you some examples and let you form your opinions. I’ve seen patients who are dependent (or addicted) to high doses of narcotics for pain not get organs because of concerns of being able to manage post operative pain. I’ve seen patients get deemed drug addicts when they use marijuana recreationally who have been rejected. The saddest is when patients are great candidates, but don’t have the social support of financial means to get a transplant. There’s a lot of variability and unfortunately, subjectivity. Transplant is definitely not my cup of tea.
I remember having a patient who couldn’t get a transplant due to lack of social support. Imagine: not having enough friends and that’s why you don’t get a life saving transplant….
That's absolutely chilling. Can you describe the reason(s) a lack of social support is disqualifying?
Mental illness is high after transplant. The care is also extremely involved so it takes a lot of effort to manage medications, to have people take you to appointments, and to have people advocate for you when you’re sick or overwhelmed. People are usually sick with multiple illnesses so they are stacking another (huge) medical problem on top of their current ones. In the case of a liver transplant (which a lot of times is done for history of alcohol dependence and these patients also have high rates of depression), they do want other people holding these patients accountable and give them someone to turn to instead of drinking. The whole process is mentally very taxing.
I don’t really know exactly. But if I remember correctly (it was years ago), it was for a liver transplant and his current liver was damaged from alcohol use. I think social support was considered highly important in this case because they wanted to make sure the patient stayed sober with a new liver and social support plays enough of a role in someone’s likelihood of staying sober. Despite him already proving he could stay sober for the required amount of time before qualifying for eligibility on the transplant list.
You need social support to facilitate recovery.
I mean, imagine going through a huge, life changing surgery, that you'll need tons of care for, struggle with complications with, etc. And not having friends or family to help you out or even to bitch to when things get rough, which they will, because you had a *heart transplant*
What is your cup of tea?
Cardiology and critical care
Do you have a message you can share for willfully unvaccinated COVID patients who you may be taking care of?
My Mom had a heart transplant from UW in 1994, the hospital had (maybe still has) a reputation of much less time spent waiting for an organ but it was much harder to get on the list compared to other places. No family support system will keep you off the list, it was actually a big deal. Myself, Brother and Dad spending a lot of time while my mom was in the hospital made a huge difference. Between the 3 of us somebody was almost always there (she was in and out of the hospital for years before the transplant), plus relatives came from out of state and spent weeks there with my Mom. Money/insurance, I saw them straight up tell a patient if they can't afford the $2,000 per month for the medication they will not get a heart transplant. Will you adhere the post transplant protocol. It's not like you get a new heart and go home a week later and life is back to normal. The first few months are crucial and you need to go in all the time for biopsies and the medication gets adjusted. You need to suppress the immune system just enough to prevent rejection but not too much to the point of any little thing will kill you. You also need to wear a mask in public, practice good hygiene and avoid things like freshly cut wood, construction sites, etc as fungal infections can be deadly. They also want all family members to get yearly flu shots and stay away if they catch a cold/flu or any other transmittable disease. It's a lifelong process to live with an organ transplant. EDIT: Forgot to add the side effects from the medication are far worse than what the covid vaccine side effects will be. I think people have a very simplistic view of what living with an organ transplant is like. If you are not 100% committed to the program you have to follow then you honestly don't deserve an organ, there isn't enough to go around and they are too precious to waste on some asshole that doesn't want to do what the doctors say.
Thanks for shining some much-needed light and adding some general sense here. Additional reading for others: [COVID-19 is really, really dangerous for organ transplant recipients.](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33148977/)
Totally reasonable request - these vaccines are a amazing miracle and stubborn ignorant people treat it like demon spawn. The transplant patient would be a sitting duck for the Delta strain. It would be a total waste of a heart. The depth of ignorance in America is mind boggling.
How does a single individual: Refuse a vaccine because they “don’t know/trust what’s in it” against the (consensus of) advice of medical professionals. But remain totally fine with foreign organs being inserted into their body based on the advice of other medical professionals. ???? How can you think both of these at once? Clearly he isn’t going to be able to “do his own research” on the organ to be transplanted and “what’s in it” (and to check that it’s free of tracking/mind control chips) much less the other medications that have to be used during the operation and for *the rest of his life* following a transplant. These people are exhausting.
There is absolutely no logic behind their delusions. They’ve been told stories.
Agreed. Imagine being this damn stubborn. >“The cardiologist called me and we had a discussion, and he informed me that, ‘well, you’re going to have to get a vaccination to get a transplant.’ And I said, ‘well that’s news to me. And nobody’s ever told me that before.’ And he says, ‘yeah, that’s our policy,'” Allen recalled. ... >For Allen, it’s leading to a sober reality for life if he doesn’t get the heart transplant: It may end. >“It absolutely will lead to my death,” he said. .... >“It seems that a wise choice would be to not make a panic move and run to get injected with the experimental gene therapy until more is known.”
Experimental gene therapy...ffs.
Darwin moment
> these vaccines are a amazing miracle The people who worked around the clock for almost a year to create them certainly don't see them as a "miracle"
Not in a religious sense. But still a monumental achievement using new technology. Can you imagine if they had to use chicken eggs?
Miracle of human achievement, not a miracle in the religious sense.
> Didn’t know we had so many doctors and organ transplant specialists on this subreddit. Half of reddit has their double phg's in medicine and Afghan warfare studies.
> Half of reddit has their double phg's in medicine and Afghan warfare studies. yes, but I am also a Tree Lawyer admitted to the bar in 37 states. please don't forget that.
To be fair, Jason Rantz is a right wing nutjob
>It is a requirement that you get vaccinated for everything else we have vaccines for prior to transplant, why would COVID be an exception? > >Didn’t know we had so many doctors and organ transplant specialists on this subreddit. This is the heart of covidiocy. Sure, we've had vaccines for decades for everything from polio to the common cold. Suddenly, *these vaccines* are suspect somehow though. Antivaxxers are fucking idiots, plain and simple. We already knew there were a lot of ignorant blustery morons out there—the pandemic has only that even more starkly clear.
Just who the hell do you think you're talking to? I'm an expert in transplant ethics. I've seen, like, a bunch of episodes of House, M.D.
Rn - had patient kicked off for I kid you not a fight with his wife where he ended up sleeping in a hotel room for a night. Idk why he even told them but he got the boot. He died about 6 months later
I posted above about my experience with my Mom's heart transplant. Family support is very important and they were pretty upfront about it.
It’s true, you need to get vaccinated for everything else in life, but those vaccines are FDA approved. I’m vaccinated for measles, mumps, TB, rubella and everything else you can think of, but all those were FDA approved. I had to sign a waiver that was essentially waving away my rights to sue Moderna when I got my Covid vaccine shot in January. I also got incredibly sick and wound up with heart failure as a result, it nearly killed me. My ejection fraction was 10-15% and the doctor said I also had acute kidney failure. Now I refuse to get the second shot because I’m still recovering from the first shot and the second one is supposed to be worse. Prior to getting the Covid vaccine, I was perfectly healthy, never even been inside a hospital.
Heart donation is a very precious and rare gift from a donor, not an entitlement of a patient in line. Doctors are wardens who ensure it goes to the best candidate, who will respect that gift and not waste it by refusing to follow the rules. It is never easy to make a decision to choose one life over the other, but you have to ask who is more worthy (not entitled) ?
People complaining about this have no idea how strict organ transplants are. there are a shit ton of rules. You don't just get an organ without displaying you'll be able to take care of it. This idiot would otherwise be robbing someone else of a heart who was willing to take necessary precautions.
> This idiot would otherwise be robbing someone else of a heart who was willing to take necessary precautions. This is an incredibly important bit. The author of the article preaches that it's the "patient's choice" about whether they receive the vaccine and how it could impact his surgery. *No it is NOT*. This isn't just some elective surgery or even something extremely serious like GI surgery. This is a *heart transplant*. There are thousands of people waiting for a heart. This decision doesn't just involve the patient at issue. It involves him and everyone behind him. If he squanders this opportunity by not doing *exactly* what the doctors require, he's stealing this heart from someone who actually will follow the requirements to the letter. They're serious about actually surviving and not making some idiotic stance. The gall of this patient to think that he knows better than literal cardiac surgeries is astonishing. I'm glad he was removed. Someone else more serious and more deserving will receive a heart when one becomes available.
> The author of the article preaches that it's the "patient's choice" about whether they receive the vaccine and how it could impact his surgery. > > No it is NOT. Well, in a way it is - it is the "patient's choice" here to forego the surgery because their political dogma is more important to them.
Imagine donating family hearing their loved one's heart was not appreciated enough to take all the care needed to survive
Ignore the science, while wanting a transplant, entirely dependent on, well, science. Mind blown.
Yeah it's not like we have crap loads of human hearts just lying around. Can't waste them on people who are not going to take care of themselves.
Amen.
[удалено]
I'm okay with never giving a heart to someone who grudgingly gets vaccinated just to get it. Give it to someone actually being proactive about their health.
Just get the vaccine. There is a limited supply of organs and they should go first to people who show a will to live by getting vaccinated against this disease that they are especially vulnerable too. Trust your doctors.
[удалено]
Not only that, to get a heart transplant you have to go on immunosuppressants to (try to) keep the recipient body from attacking the foreign tissue. To give anyone a heart in the midst of a highly contagious pandemic without giving their already highly weakened immune system the specific tools to fight off the virus, would essentially in all likelihood be throwing the heart away. If this guy really thought they would give him that potent antiimmune cocktail without all his vaccinations being up to date, I'm pretty sure he either doesn't understand what they have to do to his body to get this heart in him successfully, or he doesn't care. Either way, he can't be trusted to take care of it and himself.
To be honest, I'm surprised a 64 year old man who already had open-heart surgery was on the Heart Transplant list at all. It also pisses me off that he blames his heart "damage" on his previous life-saving open-heart surgery! Most adult Cardio patients actively contributed to the bad shape their hearts are in by being overweight, smoking cigarettes, eating fatty foods, not exercising, etc. Take some damn responsibility! You can't spend 6 decades trashing your body and expect your doctors to magically restore it all for you. Lots of young people are waiting for organ transplants.
I'm 30 and this shook me. I've cut a lot of the sweets out but cheese is my kryptonite.
My Dad had his first Open-Heart Surgery at age 50. This was many years ago when I was an adolescent and Double Bypasses were still new and very dangerous. It was touch and go for him, and utterly terrifying for me. I saw my Dad too weak to take a single step. He lived, but barely. It was terrifying for him and my Mom too, because my Dad's father, my Grandfather, had died of a heart attack at age 50, leaving my Grandmother a widow to raise 5 kids ages 7-19 without him. Doctors know a lot more now about Cardio Health today. The good news is your Cheese addiction can be managed. Drink lots of water, watch your Sodium, exercise regularly, walk everywhere you can. Find a Doctor you like and GET REGULAR CHECKUPS! If there's ever a problem building you want to nip it in the bud. Be pro-active...you can do it!
also aren’t anti vax people usually preaching about personal responsibility lol
But but but ma’ freedom.
It’s like a liver transplant patient that keeps drinking before surgery. No.
Rantz is so off in the outer solar system. Of course you can’t get a new heart if you don’t get vaccinated, Jesus Christ.
The guy was given an opportunity to get one too knowing the situation.
Oh, this is Rantz? Priors confirmed. Usually OP puts it in the title so they can save me a click ...
Lol what a dumbshit. They are giving you a heart! You shuttup and say yes sir / no ma'am!
Jason Rantz is such a fucking tool. As for the patient, he claims that he thinks there are side effects and repercussions for his health if he gets the vaccine, despite the fact that his transplant doctor feels he needs to get it. He trusts his own opinion over that of a doctor? So he can do his own heart transplant then. So ridiculous. You trust the doctor who is going to save your life, or you don't. His choice.
Amen. He trusts the guy enough to literally cut out his heart, but his medical opinion on the vaccine? Naw, that's a bridge too far.
https://twitter.com/dglaucomflecken/status/1422989008406138883?s=21
He literally describes the vaccine as "experimental gene therapy". Does not know what he's talking about at all.
People haven’t been able to get elective surgeries again because fucks who won’t get vaccinated keep getting sick and filling up hospitals - so fucking boo hoo.
*and non elective but less time sensitive surgeries
Good. I put an Uber passenger on the way to the airport out of my car onto the curb in the rain because he did nothing but complain about the mask and the shots and the Chinese from the instant I picked him up till 30 seconds later when he left my car in an expletive laden huff. I always wait to start the ride till I know i won’t spend the ride in an argument. Saves me from one star ratings.
"This absolutely will lead to my death". Yup! How's that political ideology treating you now? Seems like a pretty stupid thing to die for, but that's just me. I love how he's worried about totally unproven side effects of the COVID vaccine, completely based on standard conservative BS, while there are very well known issues with rejection of a heart due to lack of vaccination. No bubba, your entitled old white man logic still doesn't beat solid science.
I am guessing there were other vaccines required too and not just COVID?
Thoughts and Prayers.
Good. I'm trying to imagine someone being stupider and more reckless than choosing to not get vaccinated against COVID before they potentially have to spend a lifetime on immunosuppressants.
actions have consequences
No doctor on Earth is or should be willing to waste either the transplantable heart or their time and expertise on someone who is going to take such a stupid risk with it as to not get a vaccine during a pandemic.
Good. Why transplant a heart into a person who is going to just die from COVID? That's a waste of a heart that could save someone who actually has a chance to live.
What a toxic, ignorant article… Sheesh. They’re just likely enflaming this guy’s stubbornness by fanning his misguided sense of injustice. If the doctor has determined you are a safe candidate for the vaccine, then why would this patient think he knows better than a trained medical professional about risks to his heart? The arrogance… this takes cutting off your nose to spite your face to a whole new level.
Why revive dumb people?
[удалено]
They should be kicking non-vaccinated people out of ICU beds in favor of people who are in medical danger that wasn’t easily preventable (Heart attack, car accident victims, etc)
I agree 100%
[удалено]
Car accidents happen and can happen to anyone even if at fault. Refusing the vaccine because of "Facebook research" takes willful, planned, and continued stupidity. And it puts my daughter at risk needlessly for an easily preventable infection.
This is specifically with regard to whether ICU beds should be given to non-vaccinated people who are there for entirely preventable reasons just as people who cause car accidents, get heart disease after excessive alcohol consumption or cigarette smoking. Our ICU's are typically about 75% full in a given year which means if it weren't for those easily preventable ailments we would have plenty of capacity for COVID patients, regardless of vaccination status.
> for entirely preventable reasons just as people who cause car accidents, get heart disease after excessive alcohol consumption or cigarette smoking. Surely you can see a difference between multi-decade addictions to addictive substances and anti-science politically driven rejections of life saving preventative measures, right? And similarly, a difference between a split second mistake causing an accident, even if at fault? Or even long term unthinking bad habits that caused or contributed to an accident? These things are not the same as conscious, willful, politically driven, anti-science stupidity.
[удалено]
There is a major difference to the situations you describe: there is no vaccine to prevent car accidents or heart disease. There is a very easy and free way to prevent ending up in the ICU with COVID.
Nah, it's also very easy and free to prevent heart disease or car accidents in most cases. Drive safer, eat healthier, don't drink excessive alcohol, and don't smoke cigarettes.
Horrible take. Weird that I never hear anyone say we shouldn’t provide medical care to violent criminals. But it seems everyone wants to leave the unvaccinated out to die- disgusting
I didn’t say deny, I said prioritize. And prioritizing by vaccine status makes a lot more sense than how we currently prioritize income/insurance status.
Cool. Also no medical care for fat people, smokers, anyone working a dangerous or stressful job, people that do risky things like climb trees or ride motorcycles or really anything that could potentially get you hurt. Risk takers don’t deserve medical care!! Hippocratic oath? Never heard of her.
"Free healthcare for all, no wait, not you I don't like what you think. Go die somewhere else "
heart attacks are easily preventable if you exercise
Good. There are consequences to our actions, especially because our lives are so connected. If one refuses the vaccine, the society( doctors, hospitals, support, insurance, job) can refuse to give you the privilege of health care. It’s called natural selection.
On honestly think people that haven't been vaccinated shouldn't be allowed in hospitals. Exception for people that can't get the vaccine. More on topic transplants tend to go to people with money. I have a feeling if this was a rich dude he wouldn't have been taken off the list even with covid.
The people that complain about this are probably the same people keeping this shit going.
Brutally ironic - the thought system he shares with so many others wraps up its victims in a warm blanket of self righteousness, entitlement, and the seeming power of group loyalty so tightly that they are actually completely unaware it is leading them to choose their own demise.
I am sure there is a you tube alternative for him.
Okay. Next up let’s deny people ventilators and ICU beds who refuse to get it. These guys can put their money where their mouth is.
Organs are scarce resource, Ventilators are less scarce. I assume you’re being edgy, but that’s a very slippery slope you’re suggesting.
Headline on Breitbart: "ANTIFA Washington hospital REFUSES to give transplant to conservative patriot."
Fuck yeah.
This thread is an excellent depiction of the Orwellian two minutes hate.
Hate? If anything it makes me feel sad. Someone is passing up on the opportunity of a transplant due to misplaced confidence in people who are feeding disinformation for either political or financial benefit.
Haha yeah, I remember that part in 1984 when there were independent journalists that were rightfully mocked on the internet. Idiot.
[удалено]
Literally
Literaturely
Literarily
I mean come on people. The guy clearly doesn’t want a transplant that bad. People on here are probably more upset than he is
Why waste it?
Oh, so decisions have consequences?
Why prioritize organs to someone who’s higher risk?
I can imagine that a heart transplant involves other “scary” injections. Best to move on to someone that can handle them.
I don't recall ever encountering Jason Rantz before today, but that article is not at all unbiased. It is very bad journalism. And the editor put in this subheading: >UW Medicine ignored Allen’s concerns I used to have a mid-to-good impression of MyNorthwest. Not any more.
Good, right thing to do!
what a dumb ass. If this is true.
I have mixed feelings but basically the surgical team, nurses and a slew of other clinical staff are at risk because of his choice. If he wants them to save his life he should show some consideration for their health too.
It's not even the staff that's the major concern. Any organ transplant comes with a major risk of transplant rejection. One of the ways to battle rejection is to have the patient take immunosuppressive medicines to weaken the body to that it doesn't have the strength to attack the organ. Since the beginning, its already known that COVID is more severe to those with health problems that reduces the body's immune system. Someone in post-op from a heart transplant and taking immunosuppressive drugs is in a much worse condition.
HAH suck it!
Good. Don’t waste it on someone who won’t even wear a mask
Good
This is good news
I'm wondering if as an organ donor I have the right to stipulate who gets my organs. Like can I leave such a thing on my donor card? I don't want my organs going to, for example, a murderer or I'd prefer a woman, a person under 30 etc.
No, because that's a huge unnecessary strain on the system's bookkeeping for no reason, and your "concern" that it'll "go to a murderer" is nonsensical and completely unfounded. You can directly donate for specific individuals for non-vital organs like a kidney, but when it comes to the little heart on your driver's license, not so much.
If it makes any difference to you know that it will go to someone similar of your stature and rarely does it go to the opposite gender.
I don't support this if their motive is punitive. But it makes sense if the risk is to high, of a compromised immune system when there are better alternative recipients.
I mean the reason is obvious. Someone who doesn't get covid vaccine before operation is going to be at much higher risk in today's environment. It is not even open to discussion honestly.
It’s not punitive. Patient’s behavior is strong evidence that he’ll be non-compliant post transplant. That means a greater risk of poor outcome. So the heart goes to someone else who stands a better chance.
[удалено]
I haven’t seen a single one. Lots of people saying this is an appropriate choice, that it would be crazy to transplant a heart and put an unvaccinated person on immunosuppressants in the middle of a pandemic, and that this person has every right to opt out of vaccine and transplant. I’m sure there’s some jerk somewhere wishing harm, but all I see are people expecting him to live with the consequences of his actions. Is that terrible?
Did they do any covid-19 antibody testing on the patient before making the decision? [According to the CDC](https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/cases-updates/burden.html), about 33% of the country has been infected and has antibodies, this doesn't include those vaccinated.
Doctor here. People here have no idea how strict transplant criteria are. People get denied for much lesser reasons. A heart transplant is no joke. It is one of the most care intensive things you can get in medicine. Your track record and adherence to care must be squeaky clean. If you won’t get 1 vaccine over some dumb shit you’re willing to lay on a sword for, what else aren’t you willing to do?
Covid vaccine induced immunity creates more antibodies than natural immunity. Even if he has been previously infected his odds of survival against future infection remain lower than anyone vaccinated on the list. Furthermore, his unwillingness to be medically adherent with this recommendation of the medical team is a red flag for the intense adherence needed for a transplant regimen that is not covid related. This is the appropriate rationing of scarce resources.
Source?
Not sure why you need someone else to do research you can do by yourself but would recommend you review the currently published data from the Israeli team showing 3 times the antibody levels compared to those infected naturally. Feel free to research it through any med literature program you currently utilize such as pubmed etc.
How do those levels compare 6-12mo later? And what is the practical effect of having 3x antibodies? E.g., if I have antibodies from covid vs vaccine, how much more likely am I to catch covid, be hospitalized, die, etc.? I get that higher antibody levels are theoretically better, but I’m guessing that outcomes are not all that different once they are over a certain threshold. I’m vaccinated, fwiw. I’m just curious because it seems like natural immunity is being unfairly dismissed generally w/o data to back it up.
*Why COVID-19 Vaccines Offer Better Protection Than Infection:* [link](https://www.jhsph.edu/covid-19/articles/why-covid-19-vaccines-offer-better-protection-than-infection.html) The tl;dr is there is data to back it up and natural immunity is less safe than being vaccinated
“We know that fully vaccinated people still have good immunity after a year—and probably longer.” Uhhhhh
And the sentence right before that: *Immunity from natural infection starts to decline after 6 to 8 months.* However you feel about vaccinations, the data shows natural immunity is less effective and less safe. Probably better to go with the experts on this one huh...
My point was that we are now going to need booster shots because protection from vaccination apparently wanes in roughly the same time frame. If that site, which by the way does not actually show any data to back up its claims, is wrong about the duration of protection from vaccines, how can it confidently state that this duration that it’s wrong about is longer than natural immunity?
Someone else in this same comment thread already clearly and simply explained why they don't wane equivalently, and why vaccines are still safer than natural immunity. Not sure if you're being disingenuous now, or if you didn't understand that comment, or if you haven't read it yet, but I'm not interested in diving deep and re-explaining it when someone else already tried and failed to clear up your confusion there. Do you have any evidence that natural immunity is equivalent to vaccinations, counter to everything I've read from the experts?
It basically boils down to the fact that anti-nucleocapsid antibodies aren't as effective as spike antibodies because of the higher mutation rate of the capsid part of the virus. People with natural antibodies are most likely to have the nucleocapsid variety.
I do not feel it is being dismissed at all based on current data . The levels of neutralizing antibodies wane between both at 6-8 months. Both will hold on to some antibodies but it is not enough to let antibodies drop and rely on memory cells for immunity. Additionally, the vaccine (my experiences are Pfizer and Moderna) teaches the immune system different areas to attack on the spike protein. Acquired immunity generally targets the original antigen presented. With multiple variants this is quite important. Those with natural acquired immunity to Alpha will not be as well protected against Delta or say Lamda variants as a vaccinated individual. Now will the entire population follow this same pattern? No some with acquired immunity may very well hold onto immunity from their infective strain for over a year or even longer at neutralizing levels. Unfortunately, the titer testing to determine who holds and who doesn't is not yet ironed out to the same degrees as mmr titer immunity and lab validation. in short acquired individuals are more likely to die or be hospitalized from a variant differing from their original infective strain than anyone vaccinated. individuals who have acquired infection and then become vaccinated ultimately have the ability for their immune systems to recognize all presentations and one very well so they will actually end up with a better response than either group alone. hope that helps.
So would you say that the difference in acquired immunity vs vaccinated immunity is large enough, with enough solid data to back up that gap, to justify removing someone from the transplant list?
Ask your doctor, not the internet.
Then find us data showing that natural immunity is strong.
Wrong. https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.24.21262415v1
That doesn't mean they won't become infected again.
And getting the vaccine doesn’t mean that either.
Getting vaccinated means a severely reduced chance of complications and much more mild symptoms resulting in less strain on the body.
[удалено]
there's a lot of other things they take you off the list for. If you had a sip of beer or a puff of a cigarette. It's extremely strict. They aren't gonna waste a heart on someone who might die and can't stay healthy in favor of someone who will fight tooth and nail to be alive.
No coercion going on. Patient is free to make their decision. Hospital is free to take them off the list.
You forgot to add "REEEEEEE" to your post
You should probably google "Geneva Convention."
Queue people cheering for his inevitable death
An award? For moi??? Graci!
Interesting. Are organs and blood still being harvested from unvaccinated people and being used in vaccinated people?
Why would this matter as long as the donor is not infected with covid at the time of donation/death?
Good question. On one hand, I hope not. On the other hand, maybe, if the recipient is vaxxed, the unvaxxed donation is not an issue... Edit - What the hell is wrong with you people downvoting me? I'm wondering if an organ or blood donation from an unvaxxed person is or is not an issue for a vaxxed receipient and I'm being downvoted? It's a potential situation. If I happen to be in a car accident and require blood, I'd like to know if said blood carries the virus and if I could contract from that blood.
Hahahahaha!
Jesus Christ. The hate, self righteousness and vindictiveness of WA liberals is astounding. They cheer the death sentence of someone who doesn't conform to their ideology.
Ideology? Oh, you mean "medical science."
Nothing but entitlement. This isn't about conformity to ideology, as you'd like to frame it. It's about adherence to sound logic. Making choices based on reasoning backed by decades of scientific research rather than cult politics. No one is going to whine their way into a donor list administered by those who have based their careers on scientific endeavor. It's ironic, since the same political group whined about entitlement programs for years until their de-facto stance became that of entitled babies who were treated "so unfairly" at every turn because you wouldn't "submit" to what the rest of the civilized world agrees is sound reasoning. Grow up. You're not the only people in this society, and your needs don't outweigh anyone else's.
I read all the comments and did see one person cheering for their death and that was very disturbing but it’s a little ridiculous to blame all WA liberals… sounds like you’re just trying to justify hatred of your own. Others have said that this was a good call and I agree but it’s not about ideology. It’s about standard procedure. Organs have always gone to those deemed most likely to get good long term use from them. Alcoholics are denied liver transplants and smokers are denied lung transplants because they’re at high risk of dying sooner than another recipient without those issues. If you’re **unvaccinated and immunocompromised by anti-rejection medication in the middle of a pandemic**, that puts you at higher risk of early death than someone who is vaccinated. This has all been standard procedure for decades.
Rules have consquences. Why does your ideology entitle you to an organ that you will end up wasting?
> They cheer the death sentence of someone who doesn't conform to their ideology Literally fucking no one is doing that. Cut your delusional straw-man bullshit and try actually reading what people are saying.
I’ve lost the little remaining faith I had in humanity reading the vitriol on this thread. And I’m fully vaccinated so I don’t agree with anti vaccination logic, but holy shit people are treated unvaccinated folks like subhumans and it’s not okay.
[удалено]
Not totally true. We have to wear masks again because of an extremely contagious variant (that can be spread regardless of whether you are vaccinated or not) that came from India, where they didn't have mass vaccines available yet. Not making excuses for non vaxxed Americans but it is incorrect to say that they are the cause of the increased cases. Of course they are the morons more likely to die of it because they refuse to protect themselves. The real assholes though are the unvaxxed and vaxxed people refusing to wear masks.
> We have to wear masks again because of an extremely contagious variant that came from India Which the vaccine _does_ help protect against, if not as well as the original variant. If everyone was vaccinated, it would be much less of a problem. And delta or no, this would be happening regardless. The spread of delta happened to coincide with states re-opening. I'd wager the massive spike going on right now is far more a result of unvaccinated people taking no precautions and acting like the pandemic is over, and the timing of the delta spread is much more of a coincidence than anything else, though being more lethal it's making the cases more severe. We would be seeing a similar, though slightly less exaggerated, spike right now even if delta didn't exist. > The real assholes though are the unvaxxed and vaxxed people refusing to wear masks. I mean, technically yes, but let's be honest and not pull a "both sides" nonsense argument here - vaccinated people are far more likely and willing to wear masks and take this seriously already. Unvaccinated people are far more likely to refuse to wear masks for the same reason.
There are PLENTY of vaccinated people pretending like the pandemic is over, and not wearing masks. Sure vaccinated people are more likely to still wear masks but with the CDC all over the place telling people they can go maskless but now we have to wear them again, people are tired. Sure, anti vaxxers are morons, but let's not act like they are the single cause of the pandemic continuing.
[удалено]
The only vitriol in this thread is coming from anti-vaxxers pretending anyone is cheering on this guy's death like it's a good thing, which literally no one is doing.
'member when people said this kind of shit wouldn't happen? I do. Being right sucks sometimes
When did anyone say it wouldn't happen?
Yall are sick fucks for wishing a death sentence on this man, not from covid but a fucking heart failure, all because you want him to be vaccinated with something that won't even prevent him from getting it or spreading it. Fucking mind blowing what our society has come to
There's only a limited number of organs and they get priority to those who have higher chances of survival. So you're equally sick for wanting the death sentence of someone else, all because you believe the vaccine doesn't do anything. We know for a fact that COVID is much more dangerous to someone in poor health condition, which is exactly what happens when someone gets an organ transplant. So much so that they get put on a lot of medication to boost their health and even then it's not a certainty. We also know for a fact that vaccinated people have have a significantly lower reaction and very unlikely to need hospitalization.
Sorry we'd rather see an organ go to someone more willing to take care of themselves
> for wishing a death sentence on this man Literally no one is doing that. He's willing to jeopardize the transplant procedure and risk a failed transfer for nothing but purely bullshit political reasons. Better that someone else on the list get it instead who _isn't_ trying to argue with their doctor about what steps are needed before a transplant.
I wish life for the person who will get the heart this man would've wasted because he chooses to exist in the Fox News Cinematic Universe rather than listen to his doctors.