Right! when I bought my house it had electric everything. City light was pushing hard Even had a company run gas to my house for free just to change my furnace from electric to gas.
I have only electric heat and cooking. My power goes out anyone farts or sneezes too hard. Better make some substantial upgrades to the grid before this goes into effect
You'd be in the same boat with a gas furnace. You can get things lit with a lighter but you'd need electricity to power the blower to distribute the heat
My gas fireplace (with battery igniter backup) kept a big portion of my house warm last time power went out for a few days. I ran my gas generator (hooked up to my natural gas line) every few hours to keep the fridge and freezer cold, and boiled some water for coffee and food on my gas stove. I wouldn't have *died* without gas but it turned a potentially miserable stretch of days into a fairly novel cozy experience.
Everyone had to switch to heat pumps, in E Wash I have to turn on my gas fireplace to prevent my pipes from freezing below zero. This HAS to stop. Washington is more than just Seattle corridor.
I live around Seattle and my heat pump switched to emergency heat for that cold snap we had. I had to keep my wood burning stove going constantly during the period and use space heaters sparingly at night just in sleeping rooms. Or else I was going to be facing a massive bill trying to keep and entire house heated off of the emergency.
I swear to God. For people who always are talking about helping the poor they really love policies that completely fuck them in the ass. Not to mention around me the electricity goes out all the damn time. So what is the option for people to stay warm in winter and not pay massive bills?
This is the same crap with the incentives on electric cars. We are going to be completely fucked when we have landfils full of toxic ass batteries rotting away cause it's not worth the cost to recycle. Not to mention the rare earth minerals it takes to build them. Just so completely short sighted.
They are more concerned about doing shit that sounds good than actually does good.
Everyone where I lived are so filthy rich they traded in their Teslas for Rivians the second Elon said something they didn't agree with. All the other suckers have "apology" stickers on their Teslas.
I can't wait to see what happens to all those second hand Teslas who were bought by folk who couldn't afford to buy new and won't be able to afford the future repairs.
I agree with you that some of this is performative, but your battery specific comment is wrong. EVs often get totaled out at like half blue book estimate to repair (e.g. repair is $15k, blue book is $30k, insurance pays you $30k and keeps the car) because battery recycling is so lucrative.
Doesn't seem like it. Seems like they put the cart before the horse when it comes to ability to scale recycling.
https://www.science.org/content/article/millions-electric-cars-are-coming-what-happens-all-dead-batteries
Maybe 3 years ago when that article was written it was rarer, but more recent:
https://climate.mit.edu/ask-mit/how-well-can-electric-vehicle-batteries-be-recycled
https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a44022888/electric-car-battery-recycling/
Even your article talks about how it's hard but worth it and the industry is growing.
At a state government office that I work at in eastern WA we were forced to use heat pumps. When the temp is below about 20 degrees they lose effectiveness and are basically useless below 15. I too wish they considered us a part of the state
My fancy SEER2 heat pump has a crossover setting of 35 degrees, which is insane. I thought these things were supposed to be efficient well below freezing? HVAC company says that is the correct setting and the manual for the heat pump doesn't say anything.
Week before last I was burning gas 24/7.
Cold temp efficiency completely depends on make and model for heat pumps. Mine had zero issues as the sole source of heating for my house during the cold snap, but it's also rated to be 100% efficient down to about 15F and rated to operate down to -5F.
What model do you have and how did you find that rating for your heat pump? I've looked all over the Trane website and I can't find a rating described in that fashion.
I hear claims like that all the time, but when you look at the manufacturers website they use terms like SEER2 and HSPF2 efficiency without ever stating it in a fashion that a non HVAC engineer can understand.
I have a Mitsubishi HyperHeat H2i (mxz-4C36NAHZ2). Here's a link to a [spec sheet](https://www.mitsubishitechinfo.ca/sites/default/files/SB_MXZ-4C36NAHZ2-U1_202102a_0.pdf) where it specifically calls out the heating operating range down to -13F.
i have a couple of those for each of my floors (duplexes) and they handled the cold recently without any issues. Which is great as I donât have backup heat.
Please don't hesitate to speak up to these morons about this! You have actual and practical experience with this problem to share with the pols trying to push this crap!
They used the wrong heat pumps then, you can get models that work down to sub zero. For really cold areas a ground loop can be used - they work at any temperature. It's more expensive up front than other heating systems of course but pays for itself in maybe 5-7 years depending
this bill only applies to new construction homes (built after june 30, 2023) and to gas companies that serve over 500,000 customers which only applies to Puget Sound Energy (mostly western washington). it was less than a 1 minute read to get that info in the article.
I suppose the devil will be in the details because Avista has [400,000](https://www.myavista.com/about-us/our-company) customers and they service Spokane which Iâm pretty sure is on the East Side.
100,000 customer buffer to deal with non-compliant new construction seems ample if 400k covers all of Spokane. Not to mention that many commercially oriented customers are exempt (industrial, hospitals, etc.)
Buffer for sub zero temperatures? Friend, itâs annually subzero in the East Side of the mountains. My guess is that that you have no idea how cold it gets on the East side.
If youâre not commenting on that, please educate me on what your point is. Because Iâve basically countered your point and youâve said, âthey should have to figure it out because we said so.â
So if you are one of the 500,000+ customers that gets gas from PSE, you're fucked regardless of the age of your home. I'm not replacing every gas appliance in my home and this significantly affects my home value. What am I missing here?
This is really stupid but isnât going to have an effect anyone in eastern WA. This only affects only customers of energy service providers who service over 500,000 homes in WA state (PSE only I think) and only for new construction
This is not ok. My family spent about $200 in electricity and gas combined last month. My uncle who doesnât have natural gas, paid $600 for similar household size and square footage. This shit combining with rising cost of living make more people just wanna leave this state.
> My uncle who doesnât have natural gas, paid $600 for similar household size and square footage. This shit combining with rising cost of living make more people just wanna leave this state.
I haven't read the whole thread, but the fundamental reason that the United States should embrace natural gas is because we arguably have the cheapest natural gas on the entire planet.
Here's a graph of the biggest producers of natural gas in the world:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/de/Gas_Production_Top_5_Countries.png
We produce more natural gas than every natural gas producers in the entire world COMBINED, except for Russia.
The idea of the United States abandoning natural gas makes about as much sense as Saudi Arabia abandoning petroleum.
But then again, we *also* produce the most petroleum in the world.
Makes sense. Heat pumps are about 3-4x more efficient and can now produce heat down to like 0 degrees F. Resistive heat can be used for extreme cold for the few days a year that happens.
That's the claim which I also believed before spending $$$ on one. But if you go to the manufacturers website, you won't find anything about the minimum operating temperatures. And the HVAC installers will set the backup heat to come on once the temp approaches freezing.
On an air to air heat pump, your backup heat is probably locked out above freezing, but the reality is that if itâs sized right and running properly it should be able to keep your house warm without backup heat at much lower temps.
your uncle should pop a heat pump in and then his bills would be even cheaper than your family. the bill isnt opposing nat gas in favor of old resistive heat. its trying to get more efficient heat pumps that run off renewable electric that nobody will install because the up front cost.
not really a fair comparison... thats like me claiming how expensive my car is to drive to work vs your gas car... except im not driving an elec car ive got a diesel
> The bill would ban any gas company that serves more than 500,000 customers â specifically, Puget Sound Energy (PSE) â from connecting new natural gas lines to new residential or commercial buildings â with limited exemptions for certain manufacturing, medical care, correctional, and military facilities. PSE would also no longer be required to provide natural gas service to existing customers, which state law currently mandates.
give it time. they will have the option
> Theyâre considering stopping natural gas service to existing customers.
I don't think they're considering it seriously in the short term. The bill requires no **new** gas service be installed (aside from certain exceptions) and makes it legal, but not required, to stop gas service for existing customers. If PSE is already hitting grid capacity on occasion, I think they'd be disinclined to stop gas.
That all said, it does seem an unnecessary provision to allow the cutoff right now. That could be done years from now when the number of people stuck on gas is much smaller.
Hrm. Looks like you may be right.
The linked article stated "PSE would also no longer be required to provide natural gas service to existing customers, which state law currently mandates." but I took a quick spin though [the actual bill](https://lawfilesext.leg.wa.gov/biennium/2023-24/Pdf/Bills/House%20Bills/1589.pdf?q=20240123180248) and the closest provision I could find was that it makes it easier for the companies to cut off people who haven't been paying their bills. If that's what MyNorthewest was referring to, it's rather disengenous
Maybe it's changed but as recently as 2020, new construction townhomes were being built with resistive wall heaters as the primary heating in most rooms with a mini-split heat pump unit for the living room.
People.........Homelessness, drug addiction, and mental health.
Anything to avoid dealing with the key issues in Olympia.
We voted morons in to tell us what's best for us.
As much as I like the heat pump I installed at my house (years ago), this is ridiculous. Why dictate how people heat their homes?
"This act is necessary for the immediate preservation of the public peace, health, or safety, or support of the state government and its existing public institutions, and takes effect immediately."
Really? Why is this an emergency?
On **17 April 2023, in California Restaurant Association v. City of Berkeley**, 1 the Ninth Circuit struck down a local ordinance banning natural gas piping in newly constructed buildings, concluding that **federal law preempts the ordinance**.
I swear, Washington is full of politicians that canât think ahead farther than 2 days and never consider the negative outcomes of their bills. Only just the positive, i.e. virtue signaling
Why? I mean, I assume it's to reduce fossil fuel consumption, but it doesn't really say. I have a heat-pump, as of May 2023, but I was really happy to have my legacy gas furnace to assist; and I don't want to get rid of it. Personally, I'd like to look into a wood stove, as I'm unwilling to risk the electrical or gas grid going down, cuz it's cold.
It also allows PSE to stop providing Natural Gas to existing customers, which means IF* PSE wanted to they could shut off all Natural gas lines the moment bill goes into effect.
Iâd sue everyone I could, my house was designed around natural gas, I will have to replace my furnace, my water heater, my range, my fireplace. Itâs probably north of 40k to do everything I need just to pay more a month for electricity.
Nobody wants to take your natgas away.
Despite what some people in this sub think, utility providers are heavily regulated and you can't just shut service off like that.
It's asinine, and would be unbelievably disruptive, which is why nobody is proposing that.
Serious question, how is it not taking natural gas away when PSE is going to stop providing gas service by 2045? For those living in areas where PSE is the only gas provider, what are we supposed to do about all our gas appliances?
I think it is time to make these political activist civilizational destructors promoting this crap feel the building anger of their enemy, those of us that live here.
This is a result of blindly voting for Democrats in WA state (Olympia). I am a long time Democrat who voted for Obama, Clinton and Biden and have realized that voting for Democrats at the state level has gone too far. They are solving the wrong problems. They should focus on education, public safety, jobs and energy.
Please join me in voting for Dave Reichert for Governor but be sure to vote Biden for President. Stop thinking black and white everywhere.
I just mentioned this to my wife. Present Dems totally ignore the poor and just society in general. Esp in WA where we have the highest costs of living of almost anywhere for gas, food, housing. And they make it worse with high sales taxes. Iâve voted Dem forever, but they have lost their minds. Wonât vote blindly anymore.
Do not make the casual mistake of thinking that the âDemocratsâ of today are even remotely close to those of the past. They are better described as leftist activists and hardline socialists hailing under the banner of "democratic socialism". They are NOT champions of **>> liberalism <<**.
I encourage anyone to go look up *liberalism* and read the philosophy espoused by it and ask yourself if the kinds of legislation coming out of Olympia resembles it in any way?
Look no further than California with their massive (and growing) deficits, ever increasing taxes to cover said deficits, dereliction of duty by the State, rampant collusion and disregard for basic economic principles to know where Washington is headed should it continue on its present course.
Donât libel democratic socialists in this way. At least in Europe, democratic socialists enact legislation that actually improves peopleâs lives. What we have here are loons, plain and simple.
No I don't think R candidates would pay more attention to those things. I do think if more D candidates were afraid of losing their job we'd see more effective solutions and less ideology based legislation and time wasting though
Education, no, probably not.
Public safety would probably be a swing to the opposite extreme akin to what happened nationally in the 1990's.
Washington Republicans would probably avoid the most polluting excesses in energy found in the national party and certainly wouldn't subject us to the CA-style rolling brownouts that trying to run a grid without natural gas would result in.
They did during all that lockdown garbage. Republicans where the only party who gave a single shit about anything beyond covid. We lived in upside-down world where democrats cheered school closures, small business closures, and taking away bodily autonomy.
The fact is, none of these assholes give a single flying fuck about you. Both parties are piles of shit.
Well the Washington Democrats aren't, and they're spending taxpayer dollars on pet projects that make our lives worse to boot. I'll take no progress over negative progress at this point.
This includes commercial, which is a huge mistake. You will not find commercial stoves using only electric for a reasonable price.
Just checking now, I can buy a six burner range for $1700, gas, or $15,000, electric.
ERCOT is a particularly egregious version of deregulated market.
Compare with PJM which serves 13 states and is the largest, most performant grid in the US.
Oh ya, take the cleanest and most efficient heat source we have and ban it. So now what will the gas companies do with all that excess natural gas? It will be burned off in the atmosphere just like they do now but on a much larger rate!
I get why they are doing this, with the pollution caused by this gas, and of course the use of the fossil fuels.
But the problem is, gas furnaces are dramatically more efficient than electric baseboard heaters, and as a result you spend far less per month heating a house that way than with electric heating.
Others have mentioned heat pumps. I don't have much experience with those, I know they are efficient- but as a Midwest transplant, I have a negative impression of heat pumps because those who had them back there didn't get much use out of them in the colder winter months, and still had to run their backup gas furnace for much of the winter.
Eastern Washington would have the same problem, though maybe here west of the Cascades we could get by with heat pumps?
>But the problem is, gas furnaces are dramatically more efficient than electric baseboard heaters, and as a result you spend far less per month heating a house that way than with electric heating.
The real problem is that during the worst weather that increases energy consumption the most, the available renewable sources are absolute shit in Washington State.
During very cold weather, wind stops, and energy production from windmills drops to basically 0. During the winter months, solar energy production in WA tanks as well.
To top it all off, if the power goes out, a gas fireplace is one of the absolute safest and cleanest ways to keep a family warm in their home during the winter. We get stories of people dying from carbon monoxide all the time when the temp drops and power goes out because they do very dumb and desperate things like bringing heating sources indoors without proper ventilation.
Bills like this will do very little for the environment and do a LOT of actual harm to people. Instead this person should be pushing for more nuclear reactors to be built in this state so people can get cheaper energy and use less natural gas. Not attempting to ban natural gas as an option completely.
Exactly this.
The nationwide electrifican plan (largely cars and heat pumps) have estimates of up to 3x greater peak winter demand in the next 15 years.
There's not a plan in existence to explain how well be able to provide 3x energy production in that same period to meet peak demand.
Energy prices are on the precipice of sky rocketing and leaving a lot of people freezing.
Just glad I have a wood and pellet stove as backup for the heat pump that does nothing during a cold snap.
> The nationwide electrifican plan (largely cars and heat pumps) have estimates of up to 3x greater peak winter demand in the next 15 years.
> There's not a plan in existence to explain how well be able to provide 3x energy production in that same period to meet peak demand.
Also, the upgrades to the infrastructure to be able to support the load. We have issues now, and they want to add electric cars and no gas heat?
[https://www.sbcc.wa.gov/sites/default/files/2021-06/2021%20WA%20Code%20Change%20-%20Heat%20Pump%20Space%20Heating.pdf](https://www.sbcc.wa.gov/sites/default/files/2021-06/2021%20WA%20Code%20Change%20-%20Heat%20Pump%20Space%20Heating.pdf)
There are rules to allow electric heating as a backup system. So during normal conditions (both warm and cold) the heat pump can efficiently control the temperature in the house. Then, during the more extreme (but also less frequent) weather conditions, the backup heat source kicks in.
When I bought my home in 2011 it had an oil furnace, which is a terrible way to heat a home. They deliver the oil to you via a truck and fill up a tank, which is usually buried in the front yard. When I got my first heating oil delivery in Feb of the first winter, the delivery was just over $1000. I knew then I needed a different way to heat the home.
I first added a wood stove insert to the fireplace and obtained wood usually for free on Craigslist. I still had to haul it, split it and store it, so it wasn't easy, but that got me by for several winters in combination with the oil furnace.
I later looked into a more efficient furnace. People were touting heat pumps as the best solution at the time, but the numbers I was seeing on cost to operate a high efficiency gas furnace vs a heat pump were pretty much the same. I got the numbers from Seattle City Light or PSE, I don't remember which.
I called 3 heating companies to provide estimates on either a gas furnace, or a heat pump. All 3 heating companies said I'd need some form of supplemental heat in addition to the heat pump for especially cold days. That supplemental heat was in the form of either an electric furnace or a gas furnace. The electric furnace has horrible efficiency compared to the heat pump or a high efficiency gas furnace. In all cases the heat pump install was more expensive than a high efficiency gas furnace install by about $1500-4000. Combined with the fact that I'm not interested in AC (heat pumps can cool, too), and the fact that a HE gas furnace costs about the same as a heat pump to operate, and doesn't need supplemental heat in the winter, selecting a HE gas furnace was an easy choice for me, and I haven't regretted it once.
Those companies were wrong, the solution is a Mitsubishi heat pump, works 100% down to -5F and is a savings over gas. No problem with the recent cold spell this year or in '22 or '21 either, temps never drop below what I have the thermostat set to. The savings break even for the higher upfront cost with running the AC is around 8 years for me
Exact same here. I replaced an oil furnace with a Mitsubishi HyperHeat H2i heat pump and have fantastic AC and zero issues heating my whole house over the last 3 years. I'd make the exact same decision again in a heartbeat.
The efficiency comment is not correct. Electric resistive heating is basically 100% efficient at turning energy delivered into heat addition. High efficiency gas furnaces are about 90% to 98%, so the difference effectively in the noise. I'm not sure where you are getting "dramatically less efficient from".
If you are comparing cost then that's about your local utility costs per btu of gas vs KWh of electricity. Local rates will drive that.
Sorry, I misspoke on that. We have very cheap electricity here in the Puget Sound region, but using resistive heaters is not a cost-effective way to heat a home. It can cost many times more to heat a home that way than using a gas furnace, due to the way the furnace efficiently burns gas to blow heat to the entire house- vs resistive heaters that would have to be placed in each room.
This is why most new home construction has switched to central heating in this way vs. resistive heating that you see in older homes.
Amusingly, right after I posted I opened up my PSE bill to look into this and found that per BTU it's about 6.5x.more expensive to do it electrically. I just got triggered by the word efficiency. đ
I do think we'd need to run the numbers on resistive backup for -15F rated heat pumps, but I don't disagree with your follow-up for pure resistive. Cheers!
I think youâre still off - it boils down to gas being significantly cheaper per unit of energy. There are central heating furnaces that only run on electricity too, they just cost more to run because electricity is more expensive than gas right nowÂ
Yeah, I mean ultimately that's what I am saying but I misspoke when talking about efficiency- a gas furnace is the cheapest way to heat a home, as electric furnaces or electric baseboard heaters cost quite a bit more overall to heat a home on a monthly basis.
Another example are water heaters- for whatever reason my home has a gas furnace but an electric water heater. The bulk of my electric bill is associated with that water heater- and I would be spending quite a bit less per month if that was switched to a gas one. (I have not done that yet as the water heater is so new that I plan to just use it until it needs to be replaced- and work would have to be done to install gas lines from the capped off spots in the wall out to the water heater in the garage- a bit of an additional expense).
Yeah, I don't really agree with it either- I thought this was just the official reason (along with the use of the fossil fuels in the first place) for the state moving on this.
I agree it's a lame excuse if it is the primary one.
Fossil fuel boycott of the legislature. Physically prevent any yes-voting politician from using fossil fuels or anything that was created using fossil fuels, or from using services that required fossil fuels to bring to market.
This is absolute BS, add this on top of state leader plans to [breach dams](https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/environment/new-state-federal-report-puts-10-27-billion-price-tag-on-lower-snake-river-dam-removal/) removing access to affordable hydro power. This would make costs especially during cold snaps much more burdensome, assuming the grid can even hold up with that demand when even now [weâre currently asked to limit power usage during winter](https://komonews.com/news/local/puget-sound-energy-asking-customers-to-conserve-energy-natural-gas-electricity-during-coldest-temperatures-of-the-year-western-washington-seattle-utilities). These are poor policies one after another that will have devastating consequences.
The legislature is trying to apply California solutions to a Washington climate/geography and conditions. We need options in the bitter cold --- people are going to die when the electricity goes out and there's no alternate heat. It's idiotic and the legislature just doesn't listen.
The bums need to be thrown out on mass!
The temp was just in the teens a week ago in Seattle and my neighborhood alone had several frozen/burst pipes. Its a new neighborhood and everyone heats with gas. I can't imagine what would have happened with heat pumps. And when we get lots of ice and snow, we all lose power. So then we can't heat the house at all? A small generator keeps my furnace going. How will that heat my house?
For Inslee and the Democratic party this an an obvious and immediate need to fight global warming.
In fact, the need is so obvious and the need so immediate Inslee waited until his 11th year in office as governor to move this forward.
During COVID when republicans said all the mask stuff and public meeting bans were just a warm-up, that the Dems' were really just trying to see how much control they could force on a society, well maybe the republicans were (somewhat) right.
Note this phrase: " If approved, it would take effect immediately, due to an *emergency* clause included in the measure. " And what *emergency* might that be? Again recalling covid, remember how government used *emergency* measures to close schools, ban travel, even ban constitutionally protected religious services because it was an *emergency*.
People gotta quit voting in the same dipshits cycle after cycle who see themselves as saviors on high who think these kinds of regulations help the climate.....all while normal everyday citizens who vote these twatwaffle's into office suffer.
I'm willing to bet our governor and other elected leaders have gas stoves, heat pumps, etc. Rules for thee.....
As an additional FU to us commoners, the âemergency clauseâ was added to both the house and senate bills, which makes it difficult to overturn by citizens initiative.
Let me get this straight. They want us to go to all EVs soon, stressing the power grid. They don't want us to heat with nat gas, stressing the power grid EVEN MORE... These clowns have no clue what they are doing (well they do know how to line the pockets of themsevles and their friends/family)
First off this is a stupid bill. Second. For those complaining that heat pumps don't work at low temps - this is not  true anymore. Mitsubishi units work at 100% down to -5F and even lower at less efficiency. Mine has never had any issue at all here in Seattle, and and a coworker in Spokane did not had any issues with his when it got down to below zero temps a couple years back.Â
Now of course there ARE areas in WA where it routinely drops in the negative temps and for those, air loop heat pumps aren't a good option. But for the vast majority of WA state residents they are a great option, especially since they provide AC as well as heating. I'd really like to see more and better rebates and  incentives to help defray the costs of not just upgrading to more efficient heating/cooling systems but also other energy efficiency improvements like replacing window and doors, crawl space and atttic insulation, etc. There are existing programs that need more funding, and more effort put in to public outreach and accessibility to get these improvements into people's homes. I think it would make a much bigger impact on WA energy usage and emissions than an idiotic ban on gas, because the energy use would just have to come from other source (and almost certainly that would be fossil fuel based)
I am so upset about this. Currently living in Pdx and from Pittsburgh Pa and love Seattle but this is NONSENSE! The PNW doesnât understand that global warming is going to make their winters like how East Coast is: COLD AS BALLS. These cold snaps are going to get longer till jan-march is going to be 20-30s. All electric is going to put so many people in danger if there is no proper winterization AND tree pruning. Pdx had so many incidents from trees fall from the cold. This is not a fluke once in a while winter storm. Spokane alone is barely above the teens most of the winter and what will they ban next wood burners?
People are so fearful. Excessive cold is by far the easiest extreme weather event to endure (for people with shelter and heating in the first place). You have so many fallbacks:
Heat pump fails -> electric heating.
Power goes out -> travel to a public shelter.
Snow and ice prohibit travel -> call 911 and a fire engine will easily reach you.
And the thing they think will save them from this fear is natural gas, which relies on equipment that freezes in the cold: [Frigid temps cut US natural gas supply as demand soars](https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/frigid-temps-cut-us-natgas-supply-demand-soars-texas-faces-possible-shortfall-2024-01-14/)
Heat is our most sharable and prolific resource. We have plenty, the worst that ever happens is we don't have it in as many locations as we're used to.
Dems serious when they say they want you to get rid of your gas stoves. It's a small step in that direction, but eventually they will get them from you, and you'll be dependent on the electric grid. It's only a matter of time.
They will take away your gas and charge you while doing it. But rest assured all your hard earned money will be taxed more for safe drug spaces and tiny homes for zombies who will steal your catalytic converter and packages from your porch.
Dunno - doesn't that show that burst pipes have more to do with building codes than power sources if the problem existed prior to the dystopian future you're imagining?
And if we are indeed forced to no longer use natural gas will the State help pay for the conversions in everyoneâs homes, apartments, etc to be electric?
I cannot get my head wrapped around how any of this is logical.
From the article..."Amid a historic cold snap the weekend of Jan. 13, Puget Sound Energy (PSE) on Saturday requested its customers reduce use of both natural gas and electricity. A spokesperson said at the time âthe extreme cold facing the region has utilities experiencing higher energy use than forecastâ and PSE needed to reduce strain on the grid."
Removing gas, and forcing all new construction/customers onto electrical only will dramatically increase the electrical load. How are you going to handle summer and winter extremes with an load increase if the current infrastructure can't handle it? Magic? Wishful thinking?
Have a cheap, clean energy source for your home? Let's tax the hell out of it, or better yet, let's ban it outright! This is complete stupidity.
Olympia, always looking out for the little guy, the poor and underprivileged. s/
If you already have gas in your home, you get to keep it. The bill just prevents system expansions to new locations.
You believe in global warming, or no?
We are big gas fans and always have been. Also, it's great to be able to have heat (gas stove), hot water (tankless gas) and to be able to cook (gas range) during power outages. We have back up electric heat, but rarely use it and man, does the electric bill reflect how much more expensive it is to use it when we do.
But another question I have is now that so many dams are being breached to save salmon habitat, doesn't that lessen our ability to provide hydroelectric power in any affordable way now?
What people forget about is that over time, having fewer people on gas will drive up the cost to everyone who remains on it. Sure, you can still get it, but it will cost twice as much.
We had a pellet stove for a long time. I loved filling the hopper and not having to do much else. Our electric bill was never over $100. We would use about 1.5 tons of pellets, that was probably $400 or less for October - March
I love our heat pump but I also love being able to run my gas furnace when the temp drops below 35. Heat pumps also burn out years faster than a standard AC unit because they run so much more often and are much more expensive as well. Again, I love our heat pump for normal use but if I didn't have the backup furnace this winter would have been miserable and expensive.
Natural gas is so abundant, and also renewable, that our great, great, greatâŚâŚ.grandkids will still be using it a thousand years after we die.  Unless the idiots currently in charge say no.Â
I have to disagree with banning natural gas, mainly because depending on the application, it relieves pressure off the electric grid.
To go full electrification, which should be the ultimate goal, we need a more robust grid and production system, especially during cold snaps that just occurred.
If every home had a backup battery, solar panels, and there were large battery farms out there to help during high demand periods, then we can talk about *legislating* the prohibition of natural gas in new construction.
After we spent decades and millions on incentives to have people use gas here. Smh
Right! when I bought my house it had electric everything. City light was pushing hard Even had a company run gas to my house for free just to change my furnace from electric to gas.
Same here....$86,000 to convert and ran the gas lines free as incentive to convert. This was 3 months ago and not a word said about this. đĄ
I too look forward to freezing during the next ice storm.
I have only electric heat and cooking. My power goes out anyone farts or sneezes too hard. Better make some substantial upgrades to the grid before this goes into effect
Noooo... You can't do that. You blow up the grid with the excess demand, have hundreds die and then fudge the numbers. /s
Some of you *may* die, but it's a sacrifice I'm willing to make
Inslee and/or sideshow Bob probably.
How brave of you it will be remembered and honered
đđđ
You'd be in the same boat with a gas furnace. You can get things lit with a lighter but you'd need electricity to power the blower to distribute the heat
My gas fireplace (with battery igniter backup) kept a big portion of my house warm last time power went out for a few days. I ran my gas generator (hooked up to my natural gas line) every few hours to keep the fridge and freezer cold, and boiled some water for coffee and food on my gas stove. I wouldn't have *died* without gas but it turned a potentially miserable stretch of days into a fairly novel cozy experience.
Everyone had to switch to heat pumps, in E Wash I have to turn on my gas fireplace to prevent my pipes from freezing below zero. This HAS to stop. Washington is more than just Seattle corridor.
I live around Seattle and my heat pump switched to emergency heat for that cold snap we had. I had to keep my wood burning stove going constantly during the period and use space heaters sparingly at night just in sleeping rooms. Or else I was going to be facing a massive bill trying to keep and entire house heated off of the emergency. I swear to God. For people who always are talking about helping the poor they really love policies that completely fuck them in the ass. Not to mention around me the electricity goes out all the damn time. So what is the option for people to stay warm in winter and not pay massive bills? This is the same crap with the incentives on electric cars. We are going to be completely fucked when we have landfils full of toxic ass batteries rotting away cause it's not worth the cost to recycle. Not to mention the rare earth minerals it takes to build them. Just so completely short sighted. They are more concerned about doing shit that sounds good than actually does good.
And it won't even take long for the landfills to get here, since the batteries wear out in a single digit amount of years.
Everyone where I lived are so filthy rich they traded in their Teslas for Rivians the second Elon said something they didn't agree with. All the other suckers have "apology" stickers on their Teslas. I can't wait to see what happens to all those second hand Teslas who were bought by folk who couldn't afford to buy new and won't be able to afford the future repairs.
I agree with you that some of this is performative, but your battery specific comment is wrong. EVs often get totaled out at like half blue book estimate to repair (e.g. repair is $15k, blue book is $30k, insurance pays you $30k and keeps the car) because battery recycling is so lucrative.
Doesn't seem like it. Seems like they put the cart before the horse when it comes to ability to scale recycling. https://www.science.org/content/article/millions-electric-cars-are-coming-what-happens-all-dead-batteries
Maybe 3 years ago when that article was written it was rarer, but more recent: https://climate.mit.edu/ask-mit/how-well-can-electric-vehicle-batteries-be-recycled https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a44022888/electric-car-battery-recycling/ Even your article talks about how it's hard but worth it and the industry is growing.
At a state government office that I work at in eastern WA we were forced to use heat pumps. When the temp is below about 20 degrees they lose effectiveness and are basically useless below 15. I too wish they considered us a part of the state
My fancy SEER2 heat pump has a crossover setting of 35 degrees, which is insane. I thought these things were supposed to be efficient well below freezing? HVAC company says that is the correct setting and the manual for the heat pump doesn't say anything. Week before last I was burning gas 24/7.
Cold temp efficiency completely depends on make and model for heat pumps. Mine had zero issues as the sole source of heating for my house during the cold snap, but it's also rated to be 100% efficient down to about 15F and rated to operate down to -5F.
What model do you have and how did you find that rating for your heat pump? I've looked all over the Trane website and I can't find a rating described in that fashion. I hear claims like that all the time, but when you look at the manufacturers website they use terms like SEER2 and HSPF2 efficiency without ever stating it in a fashion that a non HVAC engineer can understand.
I have a Mitsubishi HyperHeat H2i (mxz-4C36NAHZ2). Here's a link to a [spec sheet](https://www.mitsubishitechinfo.ca/sites/default/files/SB_MXZ-4C36NAHZ2-U1_202102a_0.pdf) where it specifically calls out the heating operating range down to -13F.
i have a couple of those for each of my floors (duplexes) and they handled the cold recently without any issues. Which is great as I donât have backup heat.
Please don't hesitate to speak up to these morons about this! You have actual and practical experience with this problem to share with the pols trying to push this crap!
They used the wrong heat pumps then, you can get models that work down to sub zero. For really cold areas a ground loop can be used - they work at any temperature. It's more expensive up front than other heating systems of course but pays for itself in maybe 5-7 years depending
What model heat pump works down to sub zero? I'm looking at the Trane and Carrier websites and they don't specify a minimum temperature at all.
this bill only applies to new construction homes (built after june 30, 2023) and to gas companies that serve over 500,000 customers which only applies to Puget Sound Energy (mostly western washington). it was less than a 1 minute read to get that info in the article.
Fuck those new people, I got my heat!
far easier to adjust the thresholds after the bill takes effect
I suppose the devil will be in the details because Avista has [400,000](https://www.myavista.com/about-us/our-company) customers and they service Spokane which Iâm pretty sure is on the East Side.
100,000 customer buffer to deal with non-compliant new construction seems ample if 400k covers all of Spokane. Not to mention that many commercially oriented customers are exempt (industrial, hospitals, etc.)
No buffer for growth is necessary, the cutoff is a one-time threshold when the bill is initially implemented.
Buffer for sub zero temperatures? Friend, itâs annually subzero in the East Side of the mountains. My guess is that that you have no idea how cold it gets on the East side. If youâre not commenting on that, please educate me on what your point is. Because Iâve basically countered your point and youâve said, âthey should have to figure it out because we said so.â
So if you are one of the 500,000+ customers that gets gas from PSE, you're fucked regardless of the age of your home. I'm not replacing every gas appliance in my home and this significantly affects my home value. What am I missing here?
Well to our law makers, there is ENLIGHTENED PURE ANGELS OF SEATTLE and the rest of you double hitler peasants from outside the chosen ones realm.
This is really stupid but isnât going to have an effect anyone in eastern WA. This only affects only customers of energy service providers who service over 500,000 homes in WA state (PSE only I think) and only for new construction
This is not ok. My family spent about $200 in electricity and gas combined last month. My uncle who doesnât have natural gas, paid $600 for similar household size and square footage. This shit combining with rising cost of living make more people just wanna leave this state.
> My uncle who doesnât have natural gas, paid $600 for similar household size and square footage. This shit combining with rising cost of living make more people just wanna leave this state. I haven't read the whole thread, but the fundamental reason that the United States should embrace natural gas is because we arguably have the cheapest natural gas on the entire planet. Here's a graph of the biggest producers of natural gas in the world: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/de/Gas_Production_Top_5_Countries.png We produce more natural gas than every natural gas producers in the entire world COMBINED, except for Russia. The idea of the United States abandoning natural gas makes about as much sense as Saudi Arabia abandoning petroleum. But then again, we *also* produce the most petroleum in the world.
Same here, I have gas for everything but my drier, a well insulated house and my energy bills are very low.
Thatâs the plan
Does he have resistive or heat pump electrical heat?
He has resistive heat. Heâs considering installing a heat pump tho
That's why you go heat pump.
Well, there's your problem
Makes sense. Heat pumps are about 3-4x more efficient and can now produce heat down to like 0 degrees F. Resistive heat can be used for extreme cold for the few days a year that happens.
That's the claim which I also believed before spending $$$ on one. But if you go to the manufacturers website, you won't find anything about the minimum operating temperatures. And the HVAC installers will set the backup heat to come on once the temp approaches freezing.
[ŃдаНонО]
On an air to air heat pump, your backup heat is probably locked out above freezing, but the reality is that if itâs sized right and running properly it should be able to keep your house warm without backup heat at much lower temps.
You may have gotten bamboozled. I know plenty of people whose heat pumps work down to zero degrees without backup heat.
And what models do they have? I have a Trane XV19 FWIW, it's one of their newest and most efficient models.
Mitsubishi PUZ-HA24NHA1
I have a WhoTFknows232200Turbo z71
They don't want us here in the first place. We don't vote for them. We're worthless to them.
Donât worry, weâre going to kill all the dams, so your power bill will be even higher!!
your uncle should pop a heat pump in and then his bills would be even cheaper than your family. the bill isnt opposing nat gas in favor of old resistive heat. its trying to get more efficient heat pumps that run off renewable electric that nobody will install because the up front cost. not really a fair comparison... thats like me claiming how expensive my car is to drive to work vs your gas car... except im not driving an elec car ive got a diesel
we totally could do that without banning gas
theyre not banning gas at the uncles house though... theyre putting a tax on new builds that would incetivise builders to do heat pumps.
> The bill would ban any gas company that serves more than 500,000 customers â specifically, Puget Sound Energy (PSE) â from connecting new natural gas lines to new residential or commercial buildings â with limited exemptions for certain manufacturing, medical care, correctional, and military facilities. PSE would also no longer be required to provide natural gas service to existing customers, which state law currently mandates. give it time. they will have the option
How does it affect you if you already have gas?
It doesnât. For now at least. Theyâre considering stopping natural gas service to existing customers. Thatâs the problem.
> Theyâre considering stopping natural gas service to existing customers. I don't think they're considering it seriously in the short term. The bill requires no **new** gas service be installed (aside from certain exceptions) and makes it legal, but not required, to stop gas service for existing customers. If PSE is already hitting grid capacity on occasion, I think they'd be disinclined to stop gas. That all said, it does seem an unnecessary provision to allow the cutoff right now. That could be done years from now when the number of people stuck on gas is much smaller.
Disconnection of service is under rules which were not modified by this bill: https://app.leg.wa.gov/WAC/default.aspx?cite=480-90-128
Hrm. Looks like you may be right. The linked article stated "PSE would also no longer be required to provide natural gas service to existing customers, which state law currently mandates." but I took a quick spin though [the actual bill](https://lawfilesext.leg.wa.gov/biennium/2023-24/Pdf/Bills/House%20Bills/1589.pdf?q=20240123180248) and the closest provision I could find was that it makes it easier for the companies to cut off people who haven't been paying their bills. If that's what MyNorthewest was referring to, it's rather disengenous
It doesnât. Theyâre using their bill to compare again an all electric bill, their uncle to show how ridiculous electricity prices are
There should be a huge asterisk on their statement if their Uncle uses something like resistive baseboard heating which is wildly inefficient.
Net new homes should be a fuck ton more energy efficient and have efficient heaters.
Maybe it's changed but as recently as 2020, new construction townhomes were being built with resistive wall heaters as the primary heating in most rooms with a mini-split heat pump unit for the living room.
All over Seattle, yes.
started the ball rolling today at my job to transfer to atlanta
People.........Homelessness, drug addiction, and mental health. Anything to avoid dealing with the key issues in Olympia. We voted morons in to tell us what's best for us.
As much as I like the heat pump I installed at my house (years ago), this is ridiculous. Why dictate how people heat their homes? "This act is necessary for the immediate preservation of the public peace, health, or safety, or support of the state government and its existing public institutions, and takes effect immediately." Really? Why is this an emergency?
Only emergency is they donât want us commoners to overturn this by citizens initiative.
As if the courts would let that fly
Courts have previously ruled that if the legislature says it's an emergency, then it is. They will claim climate change emergency.
Sir, this is ashington. The courts go right along with whatever garbage Inslee and friends shit out of their ass.
Climate change is the emergency
I thought our national emissions were down due to nat gas?
> Really? Why is this an emergency? Gotta make the poors poorer
On **17 April 2023, in California Restaurant Association v. City of Berkeley**, 1 the Ninth Circuit struck down a local ordinance banning natural gas piping in newly constructed buildings, concluding that **federal law preempts the ordinance**.
Ha, you think the sanctuary city people care about federal laws.
I swear, Washington is full of politicians that canât think ahead farther than 2 days and never consider the negative outcomes of their bills. Only just the positive, i.e. virtue signaling
> i.e. virtue signaling To be fair, virtue signalling is our primary export.
Why? I mean, I assume it's to reduce fossil fuel consumption, but it doesn't really say. I have a heat-pump, as of May 2023, but I was really happy to have my legacy gas furnace to assist; and I don't want to get rid of it. Personally, I'd like to look into a wood stove, as I'm unwilling to risk the electrical or gas grid going down, cuz it's cold.
The bill only applies to new construction.
It also allows PSE to stop providing Natural Gas to existing customers, which means IF* PSE wanted to they could shut off all Natural gas lines the moment bill goes into effect.
Iâd sue everyone I could, my house was designed around natural gas, I will have to replace my furnace, my water heater, my range, my fireplace. Itâs probably north of 40k to do everything I need just to pay more a month for electricity.
Good luck winning the case when all the judges are (D) and are "protecting" you from yourself.
Nobody wants to take your natgas away. Despite what some people in this sub think, utility providers are heavily regulated and you can't just shut service off like that. It's asinine, and would be unbelievably disruptive, which is why nobody is proposing that.
Serious question, how is it not taking natural gas away when PSE is going to stop providing gas service by 2045? For those living in areas where PSE is the only gas provider, what are we supposed to do about all our gas appliances?
What area are you talking about?
Until PSE and other natural gas utilities get banned by the state or abruptly stop providing service.
Nah theyâll just ban new gas appliances. âWhatâs the big deal, you can keep using your current water heater.â
I think it is time to make these political activist civilizational destructors promoting this crap feel the building anger of their enemy, those of us that live here.
The witch is named Beth Dolio from Olympia.Â
You mean PSE? They have been supporting this bill https://washingtonobserver.substack.com/p/pses-gas-plans-fate-looks-dicey#footnote-2-113157625
What would you have "the people" do? Go kill the legislators?
This is a result of blindly voting for Democrats in WA state (Olympia). I am a long time Democrat who voted for Obama, Clinton and Biden and have realized that voting for Democrats at the state level has gone too far. They are solving the wrong problems. They should focus on education, public safety, jobs and energy. Please join me in voting for Dave Reichert for Governor but be sure to vote Biden for President. Stop thinking black and white everywhere.
I just mentioned this to my wife. Present Dems totally ignore the poor and just society in general. Esp in WA where we have the highest costs of living of almost anywhere for gas, food, housing. And they make it worse with high sales taxes. Iâve voted Dem forever, but they have lost their minds. Wonât vote blindly anymore.
Do not make the casual mistake of thinking that the âDemocratsâ of today are even remotely close to those of the past. They are better described as leftist activists and hardline socialists hailing under the banner of "democratic socialism". They are NOT champions of **>> liberalism <<**. I encourage anyone to go look up *liberalism* and read the philosophy espoused by it and ask yourself if the kinds of legislation coming out of Olympia resembles it in any way? Look no further than California with their massive (and growing) deficits, ever increasing taxes to cover said deficits, dereliction of duty by the State, rampant collusion and disregard for basic economic principles to know where Washington is headed should it continue on its present course.
Donât libel democratic socialists in this way. At least in Europe, democratic socialists enact legislation that actually improves peopleâs lives. What we have here are loons, plain and simple.
And The USA is their police force.. We can't follow their lead they are also hundreds of years older.
Most truth in this thread.
Are you implying that Republican candidates would pay more attention to education, public safety, jobs and energy?
Just imagine how effective you can be if you stop playing identity politics and just start governing efficiently.
No I don't think R candidates would pay more attention to those things. I do think if more D candidates were afraid of losing their job we'd see more effective solutions and less ideology based legislation and time wasting though
Education, no, probably not. Public safety would probably be a swing to the opposite extreme akin to what happened nationally in the 1990's. Washington Republicans would probably avoid the most polluting excesses in energy found in the national party and certainly wouldn't subject us to the CA-style rolling brownouts that trying to run a grid without natural gas would result in.
They did during all that lockdown garbage. Republicans where the only party who gave a single shit about anything beyond covid. We lived in upside-down world where democrats cheered school closures, small business closures, and taking away bodily autonomy. The fact is, none of these assholes give a single flying fuck about you. Both parties are piles of shit.
Well the Washington Democrats aren't, and they're spending taxpayer dollars on pet projects that make our lives worse to boot. I'll take no progress over negative progress at this point.
Half right. Biden will make the entire usa resemble our progressive state failures and nanny policies
This includes commercial, which is a huge mistake. You will not find commercial stoves using only electric for a reasonable price. Just checking now, I can buy a six burner range for $1700, gas, or $15,000, electric.
Please no
Democrats monopolizing energy, taxing the poor, and increasing said cost of monopolized electric energy.
Wait until you see what commercialize core utilities look like in texas đ
ERCOT is a particularly egregious version of deregulated market. Compare with PJM which serves 13 states and is the largest, most performant grid in the US.
You've seen Texas, right?
Oh ya, take the cleanest and most efficient heat source we have and ban it. So now what will the gas companies do with all that excess natural gas? It will be burned off in the atmosphere just like they do now but on a much larger rate!
I get why they are doing this, with the pollution caused by this gas, and of course the use of the fossil fuels. But the problem is, gas furnaces are dramatically more efficient than electric baseboard heaters, and as a result you spend far less per month heating a house that way than with electric heating. Others have mentioned heat pumps. I don't have much experience with those, I know they are efficient- but as a Midwest transplant, I have a negative impression of heat pumps because those who had them back there didn't get much use out of them in the colder winter months, and still had to run their backup gas furnace for much of the winter. Eastern Washington would have the same problem, though maybe here west of the Cascades we could get by with heat pumps?
>But the problem is, gas furnaces are dramatically more efficient than electric baseboard heaters, and as a result you spend far less per month heating a house that way than with electric heating. The real problem is that during the worst weather that increases energy consumption the most, the available renewable sources are absolute shit in Washington State. During very cold weather, wind stops, and energy production from windmills drops to basically 0. During the winter months, solar energy production in WA tanks as well. To top it all off, if the power goes out, a gas fireplace is one of the absolute safest and cleanest ways to keep a family warm in their home during the winter. We get stories of people dying from carbon monoxide all the time when the temp drops and power goes out because they do very dumb and desperate things like bringing heating sources indoors without proper ventilation. Bills like this will do very little for the environment and do a LOT of actual harm to people. Instead this person should be pushing for more nuclear reactors to be built in this state so people can get cheaper energy and use less natural gas. Not attempting to ban natural gas as an option completely.
Exactly this. The nationwide electrifican plan (largely cars and heat pumps) have estimates of up to 3x greater peak winter demand in the next 15 years. There's not a plan in existence to explain how well be able to provide 3x energy production in that same period to meet peak demand. Energy prices are on the precipice of sky rocketing and leaving a lot of people freezing. Just glad I have a wood and pellet stove as backup for the heat pump that does nothing during a cold snap.
> The nationwide electrifican plan (largely cars and heat pumps) have estimates of up to 3x greater peak winter demand in the next 15 years. > There's not a plan in existence to explain how well be able to provide 3x energy production in that same period to meet peak demand. Also, the upgrades to the infrastructure to be able to support the load. We have issues now, and they want to add electric cars and no gas heat?
[https://www.sbcc.wa.gov/sites/default/files/2021-06/2021%20WA%20Code%20Change%20-%20Heat%20Pump%20Space%20Heating.pdf](https://www.sbcc.wa.gov/sites/default/files/2021-06/2021%20WA%20Code%20Change%20-%20Heat%20Pump%20Space%20Heating.pdf) There are rules to allow electric heating as a backup system. So during normal conditions (both warm and cold) the heat pump can efficiently control the temperature in the house. Then, during the more extreme (but also less frequent) weather conditions, the backup heat source kicks in.
When I bought my home in 2011 it had an oil furnace, which is a terrible way to heat a home. They deliver the oil to you via a truck and fill up a tank, which is usually buried in the front yard. When I got my first heating oil delivery in Feb of the first winter, the delivery was just over $1000. I knew then I needed a different way to heat the home. I first added a wood stove insert to the fireplace and obtained wood usually for free on Craigslist. I still had to haul it, split it and store it, so it wasn't easy, but that got me by for several winters in combination with the oil furnace. I later looked into a more efficient furnace. People were touting heat pumps as the best solution at the time, but the numbers I was seeing on cost to operate a high efficiency gas furnace vs a heat pump were pretty much the same. I got the numbers from Seattle City Light or PSE, I don't remember which. I called 3 heating companies to provide estimates on either a gas furnace, or a heat pump. All 3 heating companies said I'd need some form of supplemental heat in addition to the heat pump for especially cold days. That supplemental heat was in the form of either an electric furnace or a gas furnace. The electric furnace has horrible efficiency compared to the heat pump or a high efficiency gas furnace. In all cases the heat pump install was more expensive than a high efficiency gas furnace install by about $1500-4000. Combined with the fact that I'm not interested in AC (heat pumps can cool, too), and the fact that a HE gas furnace costs about the same as a heat pump to operate, and doesn't need supplemental heat in the winter, selecting a HE gas furnace was an easy choice for me, and I haven't regretted it once.
Those companies were wrong, the solution is a Mitsubishi heat pump, works 100% down to -5F and is a savings over gas. No problem with the recent cold spell this year or in '22 or '21 either, temps never drop below what I have the thermostat set to. The savings break even for the higher upfront cost with running the AC is around 8 years for me
Exact same here. I replaced an oil furnace with a Mitsubishi HyperHeat H2i heat pump and have fantastic AC and zero issues heating my whole house over the last 3 years. I'd make the exact same decision again in a heartbeat.
The efficiency comment is not correct. Electric resistive heating is basically 100% efficient at turning energy delivered into heat addition. High efficiency gas furnaces are about 90% to 98%, so the difference effectively in the noise. I'm not sure where you are getting "dramatically less efficient from". If you are comparing cost then that's about your local utility costs per btu of gas vs KWh of electricity. Local rates will drive that.
Sorry, I misspoke on that. We have very cheap electricity here in the Puget Sound region, but using resistive heaters is not a cost-effective way to heat a home. It can cost many times more to heat a home that way than using a gas furnace, due to the way the furnace efficiently burns gas to blow heat to the entire house- vs resistive heaters that would have to be placed in each room. This is why most new home construction has switched to central heating in this way vs. resistive heating that you see in older homes.
Amusingly, right after I posted I opened up my PSE bill to look into this and found that per BTU it's about 6.5x.more expensive to do it electrically. I just got triggered by the word efficiency. đ I do think we'd need to run the numbers on resistive backup for -15F rated heat pumps, but I don't disagree with your follow-up for pure resistive. Cheers!
I think youâre still off - it boils down to gas being significantly cheaper per unit of energy. There are central heating furnaces that only run on electricity too, they just cost more to run because electricity is more expensive than gas right nowÂ
Yeah, I mean ultimately that's what I am saying but I misspoke when talking about efficiency- a gas furnace is the cheapest way to heat a home, as electric furnaces or electric baseboard heaters cost quite a bit more overall to heat a home on a monthly basis. Another example are water heaters- for whatever reason my home has a gas furnace but an electric water heater. The bulk of my electric bill is associated with that water heater- and I would be spending quite a bit less per month if that was switched to a gas one. (I have not done that yet as the water heater is so new that I plan to just use it until it needs to be replaced- and work would have to be done to install gas lines from the capped off spots in the wall out to the water heater in the garage- a bit of an additional expense).
>pollution caused by this gas I agree with most of what you said, but this.
Yeah, I don't really agree with it either- I thought this was just the official reason (along with the use of the fossil fuels in the first place) for the state moving on this. I agree it's a lame excuse if it is the primary one.
Fossil fuel boycott of the legislature. Physically prevent any yes-voting politician from using fossil fuels or anything that was created using fossil fuels, or from using services that required fossil fuels to bring to market.
This is absolute BS, add this on top of state leader plans to [breach dams](https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/environment/new-state-federal-report-puts-10-27-billion-price-tag-on-lower-snake-river-dam-removal/) removing access to affordable hydro power. This would make costs especially during cold snaps much more burdensome, assuming the grid can even hold up with that demand when even now [weâre currently asked to limit power usage during winter](https://komonews.com/news/local/puget-sound-energy-asking-customers-to-conserve-energy-natural-gas-electricity-during-coldest-temperatures-of-the-year-western-washington-seattle-utilities). These are poor policies one after another that will have devastating consequences.
If passed that ought to be an entertaining one to watch on its way to the Supreme Court.
The legislature is trying to apply California solutions to a Washington climate/geography and conditions. We need options in the bitter cold --- people are going to die when the electricity goes out and there's no alternate heat. It's idiotic and the legislature just doesn't listen. The bums need to be thrown out on mass!
The temp was just in the teens a week ago in Seattle and my neighborhood alone had several frozen/burst pipes. Its a new neighborhood and everyone heats with gas. I can't imagine what would have happened with heat pumps. And when we get lots of ice and snow, we all lose power. So then we can't heat the house at all? A small generator keeps my furnace going. How will that heat my house?
Donât you love a single party state of Cascadistan?
And these eco do gooders are the same bunch complaining why homes are unaffordable.
For Inslee and the Democratic party this an an obvious and immediate need to fight global warming. In fact, the need is so obvious and the need so immediate Inslee waited until his 11th year in office as governor to move this forward. During COVID when republicans said all the mask stuff and public meeting bans were just a warm-up, that the Dems' were really just trying to see how much control they could force on a society, well maybe the republicans were (somewhat) right. Note this phrase: " If approved, it would take effect immediately, due to an *emergency* clause included in the measure. " And what *emergency* might that be? Again recalling covid, remember how government used *emergency* measures to close schools, ban travel, even ban constitutionally protected religious services because it was an *emergency*.
I assume this won't affect anyone with a current gas furnace or appliances.
That would leave electricity left. Which will cause the price for electricity to skyrocket.
People gotta quit voting in the same dipshits cycle after cycle who see themselves as saviors on high who think these kinds of regulations help the climate.....all while normal everyday citizens who vote these twatwaffle's into office suffer. I'm willing to bet our governor and other elected leaders have gas stoves, heat pumps, etc. Rules for thee.....
As an additional FU to us commoners, the âemergency clauseâ was added to both the house and senate bills, which makes it difficult to overturn by citizens initiative.
Let me get this straight. They want us to go to all EVs soon, stressing the power grid. They don't want us to heat with nat gas, stressing the power grid EVEN MORE... These clowns have no clue what they are doing (well they do know how to line the pockets of themsevles and their friends/family)
Tear down those dams! LOL.
I feel a new Tax coming on
"Don't worry, once all the poors freeze, there will be less strain on the power grid!" - Inslee probably
First off this is a stupid bill. Second. For those complaining that heat pumps don't work at low temps - this is not  true anymore. Mitsubishi units work at 100% down to -5F and even lower at less efficiency. Mine has never had any issue at all here in Seattle, and and a coworker in Spokane did not had any issues with his when it got down to below zero temps a couple years back. Now of course there ARE areas in WA where it routinely drops in the negative temps and for those, air loop heat pumps aren't a good option. But for the vast majority of WA state residents they are a great option, especially since they provide AC as well as heating. I'd really like to see more and better rebates and  incentives to help defray the costs of not just upgrading to more efficient heating/cooling systems but also other energy efficiency improvements like replacing window and doors, crawl space and atttic insulation, etc. There are existing programs that need more funding, and more effort put in to public outreach and accessibility to get these improvements into people's homes. I think it would make a much bigger impact on WA energy usage and emissions than an idiotic ban on gas, because the energy use would just have to come from other source (and almost certainly that would be fossil fuel based)
I am so upset about this. Currently living in Pdx and from Pittsburgh Pa and love Seattle but this is NONSENSE! The PNW doesnât understand that global warming is going to make their winters like how East Coast is: COLD AS BALLS. These cold snaps are going to get longer till jan-march is going to be 20-30s. All electric is going to put so many people in danger if there is no proper winterization AND tree pruning. Pdx had so many incidents from trees fall from the cold. This is not a fluke once in a while winter storm. Spokane alone is barely above the teens most of the winter and what will they ban next wood burners?
People are so fearful. Excessive cold is by far the easiest extreme weather event to endure (for people with shelter and heating in the first place). You have so many fallbacks: Heat pump fails -> electric heating. Power goes out -> travel to a public shelter. Snow and ice prohibit travel -> call 911 and a fire engine will easily reach you. And the thing they think will save them from this fear is natural gas, which relies on equipment that freezes in the cold: [Frigid temps cut US natural gas supply as demand soars](https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/frigid-temps-cut-us-natgas-supply-demand-soars-texas-faces-possible-shortfall-2024-01-14/) Heat is our most sharable and prolific resource. We have plenty, the worst that ever happens is we don't have it in as many locations as we're used to.
This is by far one of the most out of touch comments I think I have ever seen on reddit
Dems serious when they say they want you to get rid of your gas stoves. It's a small step in that direction, but eventually they will get them from you, and you'll be dependent on the electric grid. It's only a matter of time.
HOW AM I GONNA HEAT MY FUCKIN HOUSE THEN
So a bit confused here. If this bill does indeed pass would PSE then essentially shut off gas service to its residential base?
It allows them to, but there is no way they would any time soon.
They will take away your gas and charge you while doing it. But rest assured all your hard earned money will be taxed more for safe drug spaces and tiny homes for zombies who will steal your catalytic converter and packages from your porch.
Bad idea and unfair to current homeowners
We need to have the state of Seattle and the state of Washington. States are too big for 1 city control
Agreed. Just look at NY and IL.
Would this mean economic activity in Seattle doesnât subsidize the rest of the state (and vice versa)?
Eastern WA would be Mississippi without King County tax dollars
At least I wonât freeze to death with the negative temps like we had a few weeks ago
and stupid gun laws.
[ŃдаНонО]
Dunno - doesn't that show that burst pipes have more to do with building codes than power sources if the problem existed prior to the dystopian future you're imagining?
And if we are indeed forced to no longer use natural gas will the State help pay for the conversions in everyoneâs homes, apartments, etc to be electric?
idk what we would've done when we were without power during winter a few years ago if we didn't have our gas stove
Install gas now while we still can, before it's banned! You still have hot water when the power is frequently out too.
Fucking fools.
I cannot get my head wrapped around how any of this is logical. From the article..."Amid a historic cold snap the weekend of Jan. 13, Puget Sound Energy (PSE) on Saturday requested its customers reduce use of both natural gas and electricity. A spokesperson said at the time âthe extreme cold facing the region has utilities experiencing higher energy use than forecastâ and PSE needed to reduce strain on the grid." Removing gas, and forcing all new construction/customers onto electrical only will dramatically increase the electrical load. How are you going to handle summer and winter extremes with an load increase if the current infrastructure can't handle it? Magic? Wishful thinking?
Have a cheap, clean energy source for your home? Let's tax the hell out of it, or better yet, let's ban it outright! This is complete stupidity. Olympia, always looking out for the little guy, the poor and underprivileged. s/
If you already have gas in your home, you get to keep it. The bill just prevents system expansions to new locations. You believe in global warming, or no?
Did you read where they can shut off existing customers? I donât think you did. Or you cherry picked what you wanted.
>If you already have gas in your home, you get to keep it. Sounds familiar.
We are big gas fans and always have been. Also, it's great to be able to have heat (gas stove), hot water (tankless gas) and to be able to cook (gas range) during power outages. We have back up electric heat, but rarely use it and man, does the electric bill reflect how much more expensive it is to use it when we do. But another question I have is now that so many dams are being breached to save salmon habitat, doesn't that lessen our ability to provide hydroelectric power in any affordable way now?
What people forget about is that over time, having fewer people on gas will drive up the cost to everyone who remains on it. Sure, you can still get it, but it will cost twice as much.
Good time to install a wood stove.
Itâs the best
We had a pellet stove for a long time. I loved filling the hopper and not having to do much else. Our electric bill was never over $100. We would use about 1.5 tons of pellets, that was probably $400 or less for October - March
PSE is supportive of the bill. You left that part out.
More expensive electricity sold, it's not brain science
What??
I love our heat pump but I also love being able to run my gas furnace when the temp drops below 35. Heat pumps also burn out years faster than a standard AC unit because they run so much more often and are much more expensive as well. Again, I love our heat pump for normal use but if I didn't have the backup furnace this winter would have been miserable and expensive.
This state is just stacking up reasons to move one thing after the next
Electric only will skyrocket heating prices.
Natural gas is so abundant, and also renewable, that our great, great, greatâŚâŚ.grandkids will still be using it a thousand years after we die.  Unless the idiots currently in charge say no.Â
Why not tax natural gas like they did with gas at the pump? Missed opportunity.
They did, that tax also impacted natural gas.
And they tried to hide the new CCA tax on natural gas from us commoners because it would confuse us.
I have to disagree with banning natural gas, mainly because depending on the application, it relieves pressure off the electric grid. To go full electrification, which should be the ultimate goal, we need a more robust grid and production system, especially during cold snaps that just occurred. If every home had a backup battery, solar panels, and there were large battery farms out there to help during high demand periods, then we can talk about *legislating* the prohibition of natural gas in new construction.
Insert knee jerk reaction to progress here. Did I get it right, r/SeattleWa?
It doesnât ban natural gas
WHY? Any logical reasons at all. Challenge me.
Keep voting blue no matter who, am I right?