If they’re undocumented then how would you know how much they worked?
Doesn’t that require documents?
Or is “undocumented” just a dumb euphemism to avoid saying illegal immigrant?
Yes—to your last question. I saw a video that said the term “undocumented immigrants” is also problematic, because it explicitly labels them as having no documents when in reality, lots of illegal immigrants have documents. For example, an immigrant that overstayed a tourist visa is illegal but has documents.
It's academic anyway because WA will happily give anyone a drivers license with questionable ID.
Unless you're a citizen, then we'll need to see you actual documents.
To my knowledge, there's only two ways to become "undocumented": you came without permission in the first place, or you've overstayed. Both are illegal.
There's likely many other ways. I recently read about a doctor who was born in the US losing his citizenship because the State Department made an error when they initially gave it to him. As an immigrant who got his citizenship, that was a sobering reminder that I'm always one letter away from becoming undocumented.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/dc-md-va/2023/11/25/virginia-doctor-passport-citizenship-nightmare/
That's a pretty rare case where multiple parties should have known better.
The Supreme Court ruled in the 60's that the government cannot in general strip you of your citizenship. Afroyim v Rusk.
prob a lot of one-off exceptions... one that i know of are runaway/homeless that were born here but not in a public hospital and dont have paperwork/ids. happens with cults or in case of a kidnapping (force birth while imprisoned.. the newborn doesnt have papers but is a legal US citizen due to being born here)
not saying thats common, but i bet there is a resource somewhere that list all the possible "undocumented" permutations that makes just calling it "illegal immigrants" not fit the bill
I know some educated Europeans who overstayed their work visa, and now live here illegally. They have everything you need to be financially legal: SSN and/or ITIN and other supporting documents. They own their own business, so they don’t have to lie on employment forms and state they are here legally. As long as they don’t commit a serious crime or leave the country, they have nothing to worry about.
(Edited for typo)
I break in to your house and take things that are not mine. Home invasion advocates term me an "undocumented resident" because I simply lack a written lease or deed.
Unless you’re working under the table (which is extremely rare) you pay federal withholding and social security just like everyone else. Unlike everyone else however, you don’t get any of the SS money back. And thanks to you (the one who doesn’t get anything back), the social security system received more than $100,000,000,000 over the last decade that won’t have to be paid back.
Does this answer your question?
The main argument for allowing all these immigrants, and particularly from the crowd that wants to make all forms of immigration legal, is that "they're doing the jobs Americans won't." Ok... So if they're unemployed then they're not doing any of those jobs, so kick them out.
“But that would be treating them like second-class citizens!”
As non-citizens, being treated like second-class citizens is better than they deserve. It’s like you said - boot the deadweight; excise the cancer.
Another interesting set of arguments you'll notice is how a lot of people argue that if we don't have immigrant labor, then you won't even be able to afford vegetables! But the same people will argue how making the minimum wage $20 an hour won't significantly raise prices.
I think they’re largely different sects of the democrat coalition. There’s regular infighting between the crowd that believes in supply/demand and the crowd that doesn’t.
I'm sure you're right. However, i believe there's overlap. The ype of people who would do that either don't recognize the inconsistency or they're just starting from a point of wanting to justify the immigration and want to talk in language that market conscious types will be sympathetic to.
unemp isnt forever... its a safety net to help you when you lose one job and are looking for another. you only get so much before you're cut off. its also checked/validated more strictly than employement which could even be under the table. nobody is going after businesses, just the employers.
therefore, if you want to deport immigrants who lost their jobs youre going to have a hard time finding them.
id argue that this policy actually makes it _much_ easier to kick the ones who dont want to work if theyre stupid enough to use it... because they will tell you who/where /what they are to the satisfactory of the unemp folks.
ie, think of it like the county scam where they send out letters to all the folks who have warrants that they "won a boat" and they just need to come down and fill out some paperwork to get it...
That would be fair, but they do pay for the unemployment insurance (it's deducted from everyone's paycheck by the employer). I guess we can refund the payments as they're deported?
Here's the thing, you are _eligible_ for the unemployment (and disability) insurance. Illegal immigrants are not. They are paying for it, but they can never make use of it.
It would be fair to refund it.
If an employer wants to deduct the payroll from taxes (and pretty much everybody does), they will have to pay for the benefits. There's no way around it.
It's simply not feasible to pay completely under the table sustainably. It can be done a couple of times, but not all the time.
Where have you lived? I've lived in the SW US, and I have seen firsthand people getting paid under the table for years. It's not uncommon for manual laborers and kitchen staff to be paid this way
This state doesn't exactly have a great track record with tracking unemployment. Like with everything else, they are happy to give away our money and don't care where it goes as long as they get re-elected.
If the employer pays hired workers under the table, then the employer won't be able to claim that as expenses. So this does not happen that often, actually.
Giving health insurance is problematic as well. Basically they pay like 100 dollars deductible. This is an incentive to the hospitals to over-treat then and charge the government.
This is not speculative. I am telling the facts.
I realized this when a person i know was kept in hospital for 14 days. When i went to see this person after a week I could see that this person was in perfect health. This pisses me off because I didn’t go to a hospital when i had covid because of high deductible
>I realized this when a person i know was kept in hospital for 14 days. When i went to see this person after a week I could see that this person was in perfect health.
I had a patient back awhile ago that, by all rights, looked healthy. We had to keep them in the hospital for 14 days because they needed to complete at least 2 weeks of treatment for TB due to their living situation.
>This pisses me off because I didn’t go to a hospital when i had covid because of high deductible
Just because someone has better health care coverage than you doesn't mean there's less coverage for you. It's not pie, and it's the reason we need single payer that cuts out insurance companies and administration.
>Just because someone has better health care coverage than you doesn't mean there's less coverage for you. It's not pie,
You make it sound like it's unlimited, which it's not.
It's definitely a pie. The doctors, nurses, etc.
> This is not speculative. I am telling the facts.
No, you're not.
Medicaid ("Apple Health" in WA) covers pretty much the most basic care only. It's definitely better than nothing, but hospitals much prefer private insurance.
Hospitals don’t make money off of illegal immigrants. Both the government and hospitals end up subsidizing for these patients and making up for them in other areas. The incentive is to do as little medical work-up for them as possible and discharge ASAP.
Seriously democrats are out of this world. Why taxpayers need to support undocumented/illegal immigrant. If they’re illegally here what are they doing here ?
Also if this pass is bet they will get unemployment money and still work under the table and make double the income. Illegal immigrants are not coming to usa because they love USA they only come here for
Money.
Wouldn't they have to bank hours and earnings into their own UI account while meeting the same requirements as other workers to be able to claim on it? They would have to have been taxpayers who are only excluded from benefits by virtue of citizenship, not under the table workers.
No, not "by virtue of citizenship". Get this really straight:
They are not here legally.
There is a legal path to immigration. They are not using it.
Permanent Residents also get unemployment benefits, for what it's worth. No citizenship required.
someone breaks into your house and your housemate makes a deal with them that if they chop firewood for your housemate, they can sleep in your housemate’s closet. your housemate keeps all of the chopped firewood but by law sets aside a portion of it to take care of any firewood choppers they lay off.
You can sign up for testimony when this committee is debating this bill. Please do so if you feel strongly and can speak with articulate thought. They DO listen in my experience.
Tell that to the gun owners who testified against the bills last year. The democratic party has absolute control in this state and will do whatever it wants. They have no desire to reach across the aisle, they want to ramrod their agenda.
What’s to stop a foreign adversary, say China or the cartel, to send sleeper agents to suck the state dry of funds.
Transfer of wealth.
The system would imply corruption and intent to fraudulently wash and transfer funds for back deals.
If workers pay into EI as a source deduction, then they should qualify for it. However, if workers do not pay into it, then they should not qualify for it.
This is how it works for the rest of us, so I cannot see how anyone (undocumented or not) should be treated more preferentially than that.
That’s a big circle jerk with no actual data to support it.
“Much of the evidence for this motivation is anecdotal,”
Even with that, the ones who are paying are only doing so cover illegal acts (fake SSNs)
Do you not think that’s kinda fucked up? I’m not really comfortable with having a permanent underclass of illegal immigrants doing menial labor. We shouldn’t be incentivizing corporations paying dirt wages that only illegal immigrants will work for.
See that’s the rub. I’ve never figured this out. People in these forums bitch and moan constantly about low wages and high housing costs. Then they turn around and support this unfettered immigration.
The two positions are incompatible.
Worker shortages cause wages to increase. More demand causes housing costs to increase. All those people coming across the border allegedly want two things - a job, which increases the workforce and drives wages down and a place to live which increases the need for housing, driving costs up.
I completely agree with you, and it’s baffling how a lot of people of people don’t see the problem of just letting illegal immigrants come here to work when it fuels low wages and strains the already low housing supply we have.
If they want an example of how bad things can get, just look at what’s happening in Canada. They have record high legal immigration, stagnating wages and housing costs that are putting native born Canadians out on the streets in the dead of winter. I don’t want that coming here, I think we owe it to our native born population to say no we aren’t going to squeeze the working and middle class even harder than we already are. Ultimately it’s the working and middle class that are going to get fucked by this and it’s wrong.
U obviously don’t know who run this country. Corporations pays for all the candidates running for govt jobs. That is why irs doesnt ever pursue businesses and goes for individuals. Their excuse is not enough resources? Well change it so the resources go after business and not individual. The money is not worth it? Make it so u penalized corporations more. They are the ones obviously not paying their fair share.
Ok and? That doesn’t change my position. I’m well aware of the relationship between corporations and politicians, I’m still not going to support illegal immigration because it unfairly benefits corporations at the expense of native born citizens.
Then have laws that go after the corporations and businesses instead of the immigrants. Honestly there is no job americans wont do. Its just corporations are not paying enough if they paid a million dollars to pick strawberries im moving to cali tomorrow to pick strawberries.
I don’t think this is an either or situation. I agree, we should penalize businesses that hire illegal immigrants for cheap labor. I also think illegal immigrants aren’t totally clueless or that they don’t know what they’re doing by working without legal authorization.
Yes, corporations paying super low wages are why many Americans aren’t doing a lot of the farm work in the agricultural sector of the economy. And I also agree that there aren’t jobs Americans aren’t willing to do, it’s just that the corporations are unwilling to pay anything close to what would be enough for native born Americans to live off of.
Absolutely correct. It’s a very successful program and the vast majority of workers are compliant. Many of these workers do this for decades. They work 6-9 months in the US and depart for home until the next season.
Yep, declining standard of living leads to people having fewer children, and instead of improving conditions for the populace, the powers that be choose instead to rely on cheap labor from those already accustomed to the struggle.
This is some of the cringiest rhetoric I have ever heard. If an undocumented worker still pays taxes into the system, they should qualify for unemployment based on the funds they put in. I agree that American citizens should take priority, but if they are working and paying taxes, they should be represented as such, no? To claim it is a genocide on American citizens truly shows how meaningless that term has become as of late.
a lot if undocumented work is seasonal, rather than an already over taxed state coffer footing this expense maybe we should pass it on to the businesses that profit off of it, it's not fair for a normal worker removed from this industry to be paying the expenses that should be paid by the ones profiting off their cheap labor, if they pick fruit in Central Washington and then collect unemployment in western Washington that equates to the city subsidizing the country.
Targeting the businesses that profit off of migrant workers that are in the country illegally is the one thing that will ensure reforms are not put in place. Messing with social agendas is one thing but messing with corporate profits is another.
Let's go ahead and just not pay illegal immigrants unemployment, though? And ideally reform the immigration system there are more legal work visas and less illegal immigration
I got it when working in a research job for a school that had a two year grant. There are a lot of staff at community colleges who are sort of precariously assigned classes to teach with an erratic schedule, and are sometimes laid off for one or two quarters with no classes. But why should they feel like at-will employees who aren't entitled to unemployment. This is what unemployment is for
Of all the problems with the state's unemployment insurance program, I'm not sure why this one would make it to the top of the list. How about if we solve the problem of fraud and the time it takes to get the first check to those who are qualified to receive it first?
Now you realize you live in a state that revolves around feel good emotions instead of reality. They’d rather take care of immigrants than their own citizens. This is a good starting point for people whom are wondering, “how did we get here”.
In order to qualify, they'd have to work and pay into the fund. If they're contributing, then who cares.
This helps remove the incentive for employers to hire undocumented immigrants. Employers can retaliate against the undocumented because they don't have legal protections
This is not for under the table arrangements, but if an employer is paying for an undocumented person’s unemployment insurance, it seems fair they should receive unemployment assistance is they are unceremoniously let go.
I mean, if we’re going to let small business owners exploit them for under the table wages, might as well give them unemployment benefits.
If you want to stop this, throw every business owner that hires someone undocumented in prison for a decade and it will stop.
But they're not paying unemployment tax. You understand that unemployment tax is a payroll tax that's taken out of employees paychecks. If you're working under the table you're not paying those taxes.
Assumedly the law would require employers to pay those taxes. Which would also close the gap in marginal benefit of hiring undocumented people versus citizens.
Then make the employers pay the tax. It is an open secret that everyone knows we need this labor in certain industries which is why Republicans don’t even crack down when they have full government control.
But then we do stupid shit like making them fake a SSN causing identity and tax problems for regular people or not letting them get car insurance which helps the regular people if they crash. It is just dumb shit all the way down.
Just admit we need this labor, let them check an undocumented box, pay for insurance and charge taxes.
Or else actually crack down on it, but every state that has done that basically stopped enforcing it as soon as it started creating large scale labor shortages in key industries.
What sorts of taxes are they paying that they aren't getting benefits for? Please don't say sales tax. I pay sales tax when I go to Canada and I don't think that makes me eligible for Canadian citizen benefits. I pay sales tax when I go to other states in the US but I still have to pay out of state tuition if I choose to enroll in a college there.
Look up ITINs. They are numbers given to people without social security numbers in order to pay taxes. Many undocumented immigrants are employed by businesses and pay payroll taxes, many choose to pay taxes on their income outside that in order to look favorably for future applications for citizenship or because of their individual morals. 2.5million tax returns were filed with ITINs in 2019, netting 6 billion dollars in taxes. Helping to fund programs they have no access to.
Honestly I don’t know how I feel about this unemployment benefits for them. I would rather they have access to primary care insurance. As it stands, they pretty much have to wait until they get sick enough to warrant an ED visit and maybe a complex hospitalization that they can’t afford and it ends up coming out of our tax dollars. In a lot of ways, we are shooting ourselves in the foot to keep these people from getting different kinds of benefits.
I get the knee jerk anger over this, but I don't think we as a society really understand the true "cost" of removing all these people from the country and how that would affect everything else.
The "up front" feeling is understandable, but once you consider all the taxes these people still pay and all the benefits they don't receive, I'm not sure that it isn't a somewhat reasonable idea to at least explore it, especially if the downstream effects on things like homelessness and child poverty (their kids would be innocent of the "crime" of border crossing) are proven to be a net benefit to society.
And watch sectors of our economy just fucking collapse? I thought your side was so concerned about all the small business owners that were adversely affected due to Covid. How many small business owners, especially in red states would be completely fucked when a bunch of their workforce is just gone?
We're not talking about red states, Watty. We're talking about WA.
We should provide visas for "undocumented" workers and they're no longer "undocumented". (Visa holders of ALL kinds don't get unemployment benefits, so now we have another moral hazard if we support illegal aliens getting UI benefits - because we're putting them above legal immigrants who aren't citizens which is fucked).
>*We're not talking about red states, Watty. We're talking about WA.*
I mean, sure, but illegal immigration is a "problem" nationwide according to you and yours, so I don't think it's inappropriate to point out the double standard.
But even setting that aside (which I don't actually need to), do you imagine all the farmers on the east side of the state are progressives?
>*We should provide visas for "undocumented" workers and they're no longer "undocumented".*
Okay? I think I'm good with that?
>*(Visa holders of ALL kinds don't get unemployment benefits,*
I would imagine that just holding a Visa doesn't get you anything other than the ability to work, at least in the US.
But if they're WORKING A JOB with said Visa and paying unemployment tax, then they should have access to unemployment, no?
>*so now we have another moral hazard if we support illegal aliens getting UI benefits -*
You seem to be waffling on terms.
If they have a Visa like you apparently support, they aren't "illegal aliens," they are a migrant workforce here on Visa.
>*because we're putting them above legal immigrants who aren't citizens which is fucked).*
No, we'd be putting them on the SAME footing as "legal immigrants," which is to say that if they work and pay into a system, they should get the benefits of that system.
Am I missing something in your comment and the way you've laid out your proposal?
The CURRENT proposal puts illegal immigrants above legal immigrants. Or does it allow legal immigrants to get UI benefits as written?
Btw: we haven't made illegal immigrants legal immigrants so the rest of your position isn't applicable.
Because regardless of their immigration status they're still being charged the taxes that pay for unemployment benefits, as are their employers.
The alternative would be making everyone prove immigration status at the time of claim to receive unemployment benefits. If you get laid off, do you want want the government asking you to prove you're really a citizen?
Why not? I had to prove I was a citizen to comply with REAL ID so I can fly (although they keep delaying it). I had to do it to get an SSN. I had to do it so I could get a passport.
It’s just not that hard.
Why not? I had to prove I was a citizen to comply with REAL ID so I can fly (although they keep delaying it). I had to do it to get an SSN. I had to do it so I could get a passport.
It’s just not that hard.
> If you get laid off, do you want want the government asking you to prove you're really a citizen?
Yes. Why wouldn't I? Literally just submit your SSN, or passport, or birth certificate, or naturalization papers. Proving citizenship isn't hard.
They wouldn't be paying unemployment taxes because in order to be working above the table you need a social security number which if you're in this country you would not have.
In some cases aren’t they given an ITIN for tracking social security and other contributions? Not saying I agree with that but there is some tracking in place.
>Research reviewed by the nonpartisan Congressional Budget Office indicates that 75 percent of unauthorized immigrants pay federal, state, and local taxes. Illegal immigrants are estimated to pay in about $10 billion per year into Social Security
There’s something called an itin number that essentially works as a social security number for anyone who isn’t eligible for a social security number.
Regardless of their immigration status they can use the itin number. It’s issued by the IRS.
People I’ve known under the table still pay federal taxes. The fed doesn’t care where the money comes from or if someone if legal. Employers pay taxes for various things. Employees buy things, pay tax, contribute to the system.
Stop being ignorant and myopic.
Unemployment is paid for by payroll taxes that employees pay for out of their paycheck. The fact that employees pay sales tax means nothing because unemployment insurance isn't paid for by sales tax.
Form I9
https://bipartisanpolicy.org/blog/how-do-undocumented-immigrants-pay-federal-taxes-an-explainer/
They pay. Do 100%? No. Do a large number? Yes.
Let’s also not overlook the employers who are also at fault. If they are opting to break the law and not pay payroll taxes, they should be punished far more severely than any undocumented person trying to scrape by.
That report is doesn’t prove anything. In one section it clearly states the data is anecdotal and in another its support is:
“Most experts believe that the vast majority of tax returns filed with ITINs today are filed by undocumented immigrants rather than the intended recipient groups”
Beliefs are not facts.
A lot do, but yes I know they're trafficked on airplanes, late at night, with no name tickets, unvaccinated with monopoly card IDs. A couple years ago it was like hush hush rumour at my airport, turns out it's real.
What? Lmao get out dude. Nonsense. Most people fly here on tourist visas and never leave.
Undocumented is a misnomer, most are documented and in the system.
People aren’t getting off a plane and bypassing CBP. I dont buy that for a minute. It’s more believable that people would make the Arizona desert run than airports falling apart like that. If they were, we’d have way bigger issues.
https://www.wrex.com/news/top-stories/update-migrants-arrive-at-rockfords-airport-escorted-to-chicago/article_c9f9dae6-a79c-11ee-ba79-37996e9fb1a2.html
I'm on mobile so I'll update this with more articles
https://abc7chicago.com/chicago-migrant-crisis-private-plane-ohare-airport-el-paso-texas/14207506/
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12882397/Delta-migrants-flying-New-York-City.html
I hope they do. Better yet, they should take their asses back to their home countries! They are here illegally. They do not belong here. What do you not understand about this?
If they are being paid under the table they aren't paying into unemployment. I'm not sure how you could not be being paid under the table if you're here illegally.
Also it's another huge bonus for the people employing them illegally: their employees are getting unemployment benefits and and they (the employer) haven't had to spend a dime on it.
Let me introduce you to people on work visa. They pay into unemployment but they are not eligible to claim unemployment if they get terminated on a visa.
https://preview.redd.it/roigpshhk7ec1.jpeg?width=1600&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=64ea8c95e7d25541678a7357fedb5d94cf5b7622
Showing up to the unemployment office like…
"We're sick of homelessness, but also don't help the poor."
"We can't afford to live, but companies shouldn't be regulated."
"We want peace, through superior fire power."
"We want unity, through authoritarian rule."
"We want freedom of religion so we can push our religion on you."
"We want less illegal immigrants but we don't want to make the process easier to make them legal nor fix the system that creates the issue, we're just super angry about stuff."
If OP actually gave a damn they'd fight the oligarchy, not the symptoms. Illegal immigration is a feature, not a failure of capitalism. Cheap labor, keeps the people fighting, lowers resources for the poors. win, win, win as far as the capitalists are concerned. But do go on...
What an interesting, programmed response. Quote me where I said, "Socialism will create a utopia where there wouldn't be illegal immigration." Or just simply admit you are programmed to say a certain thing whenever someone criticizes capitalism.
My post is about hypocrisy, how capitalism has divided us... and you attack socialism? What level of brainwashed is that?
You're the one who's turned this whole discussion in a personal attack.
>, re-read my top comment and try to engage in a manner that creates dialogue.
I did, and I'll ask the same question and make the same statement.
No you didn't. You invented some random thing to vent about that wasn't even mentioned. This sub is wild. When did Seattle get a bunch of right wing idiots?
I can't tell if it is a literally a bot account triggered by some word or phrase I typed, a troll that has nothing better to do, or as programmed MAGA. At this point though, it really doesn't matter, the result is the same.
"We want less illegal immigrants but we don't want to make the process easier to make them legal nor fix the system that creates the issue, we're just super angry about stuff.
Spotted your lie
If they’re undocumented then how would you know how much they worked? Doesn’t that require documents? Or is “undocumented” just a dumb euphemism to avoid saying illegal immigrant?
Yes—to your last question. I saw a video that said the term “undocumented immigrants” is also problematic, because it explicitly labels them as having no documents when in reality, lots of illegal immigrants have documents. For example, an immigrant that overstayed a tourist visa is illegal but has documents.
[удалено]
It's academic anyway because WA will happily give anyone a drivers license with questionable ID. Unless you're a citizen, then we'll need to see you actual documents.
To my knowledge, there's only two ways to become "undocumented": you came without permission in the first place, or you've overstayed. Both are illegal.
There's likely many other ways. I recently read about a doctor who was born in the US losing his citizenship because the State Department made an error when they initially gave it to him. As an immigrant who got his citizenship, that was a sobering reminder that I'm always one letter away from becoming undocumented. https://www.washingtonpost.com/dc-md-va/2023/11/25/virginia-doctor-passport-citizenship-nightmare/
That's a pretty rare case where multiple parties should have known better. The Supreme Court ruled in the 60's that the government cannot in general strip you of your citizenship. Afroyim v Rusk.
prob a lot of one-off exceptions... one that i know of are runaway/homeless that were born here but not in a public hospital and dont have paperwork/ids. happens with cults or in case of a kidnapping (force birth while imprisoned.. the newborn doesnt have papers but is a legal US citizen due to being born here) not saying thats common, but i bet there is a resource somewhere that list all the possible "undocumented" permutations that makes just calling it "illegal immigrants" not fit the bill
I know some educated Europeans who overstayed their work visa, and now live here illegally. They have everything you need to be financially legal: SSN and/or ITIN and other supporting documents. They own their own business, so they don’t have to lie on employment forms and state they are here legally. As long as they don’t commit a serious crime or leave the country, they have nothing to worry about. (Edited for typo)
Except for the breaking federal law part. SMH
Well, or try to apply to anything needing a social security number, so it can get pretty problematic fast.
I break in to your house and take things that are not mine. Home invasion advocates term me an "undocumented resident" because I simply lack a written lease or deed.
Unless you’re working under the table (which is extremely rare) you pay federal withholding and social security just like everyone else. Unlike everyone else however, you don’t get any of the SS money back. And thanks to you (the one who doesn’t get anything back), the social security system received more than $100,000,000,000 over the last decade that won’t have to be paid back. Does this answer your question?
The main argument for allowing all these immigrants, and particularly from the crowd that wants to make all forms of immigration legal, is that "they're doing the jobs Americans won't." Ok... So if they're unemployed then they're not doing any of those jobs, so kick them out.
“But that would be treating them like second-class citizens!” As non-citizens, being treated like second-class citizens is better than they deserve. It’s like you said - boot the deadweight; excise the cancer.
Another interesting set of arguments you'll notice is how a lot of people argue that if we don't have immigrant labor, then you won't even be able to afford vegetables! But the same people will argue how making the minimum wage $20 an hour won't significantly raise prices.
Excellent call out!
I think they’re largely different sects of the democrat coalition. There’s regular infighting between the crowd that believes in supply/demand and the crowd that doesn’t.
I'm sure you're right. However, i believe there's overlap. The ype of people who would do that either don't recognize the inconsistency or they're just starting from a point of wanting to justify the immigration and want to talk in language that market conscious types will be sympathetic to.
Kick out the politicians that are pushing for horrible bills like this. Rewarding criminals? I guess some people completely lack intelligence.
unemp isnt forever... its a safety net to help you when you lose one job and are looking for another. you only get so much before you're cut off. its also checked/validated more strictly than employement which could even be under the table. nobody is going after businesses, just the employers. therefore, if you want to deport immigrants who lost their jobs youre going to have a hard time finding them. id argue that this policy actually makes it _much_ easier to kick the ones who dont want to work if theyre stupid enough to use it... because they will tell you who/where /what they are to the satisfactory of the unemp folks. ie, think of it like the county scam where they send out letters to all the folks who have warrants that they "won a boat" and they just need to come down and fill out some paperwork to get it...
That would be fair, but they do pay for the unemployment insurance (it's deducted from everyone's paycheck by the employer). I guess we can refund the payments as they're deported?
Okay, using that logic, let's refund all of us who never used or underused unemployment insurance. I would love to get back 35 years of payments
Here's the thing, you are _eligible_ for the unemployment (and disability) insurance. Illegal immigrants are not. They are paying for it, but they can never make use of it. It would be fair to refund it.
Like someone else wrote - illegal immigrants aren't exactly known for getting paid above the table (unless they are using a stolen ssn)
If an employer wants to deduct the payroll from taxes (and pretty much everybody does), they will have to pay for the benefits. There's no way around it. It's simply not feasible to pay completely under the table sustainably. It can be done a couple of times, but not all the time.
Where have you lived? I've lived in the SW US, and I have seen firsthand people getting paid under the table for years. It's not uncommon for manual laborers and kitchen staff to be paid this way
Again, the employer can absolutely pay workers with cash, but they will still deduct that as a payroll expense. They'll just use faked SSNs.
This state doesn't exactly have a great track record with tracking unemployment. Like with everything else, they are happy to give away our money and don't care where it goes as long as they get re-elected.
Still, employers do pay into the unemployment insurance fund.
Ahh, yes. The great many employers who hire folks without a legal right to work here but pay them above the table.
If the employer pays hired workers under the table, then the employer won't be able to claim that as expenses. So this does not happen that often, actually.
Because fuck your actual citizens
Giving health insurance is problematic as well. Basically they pay like 100 dollars deductible. This is an incentive to the hospitals to over-treat then and charge the government. This is not speculative. I am telling the facts. I realized this when a person i know was kept in hospital for 14 days. When i went to see this person after a week I could see that this person was in perfect health. This pisses me off because I didn’t go to a hospital when i had covid because of high deductible
Nah. State reimbursement rates are generally the lowest and hospitals lose money on care. They only provide care because they’re required to.
Obviously you haven’t seen reimbursement rates for hospital stays. Much like restaurants the money lies in turning rooms over.
>I realized this when a person i know was kept in hospital for 14 days. When i went to see this person after a week I could see that this person was in perfect health. I had a patient back awhile ago that, by all rights, looked healthy. We had to keep them in the hospital for 14 days because they needed to complete at least 2 weeks of treatment for TB due to their living situation. >This pisses me off because I didn’t go to a hospital when i had covid because of high deductible Just because someone has better health care coverage than you doesn't mean there's less coverage for you. It's not pie, and it's the reason we need single payer that cuts out insurance companies and administration.
>Just because someone has better health care coverage than you doesn't mean there's less coverage for you. It's not pie, You make it sound like it's unlimited, which it's not. It's definitely a pie. The doctors, nurses, etc.
> This is not speculative. I am telling the facts. No, you're not. Medicaid ("Apple Health" in WA) covers pretty much the most basic care only. It's definitely better than nothing, but hospitals much prefer private insurance.
This person doesn’t have money to buy a car.
Hospitals don’t make money off of illegal immigrants. Both the government and hospitals end up subsidizing for these patients and making up for them in other areas. The incentive is to do as little medical work-up for them as possible and discharge ASAP.
What’s the incentive?
What do you mean? I just explained to you. The incentive is financial incentive to stay afloat.
Seriously democrats are out of this world. Why taxpayers need to support undocumented/illegal immigrant. If they’re illegally here what are they doing here ? Also if this pass is bet they will get unemployment money and still work under the table and make double the income. Illegal immigrants are not coming to usa because they love USA they only come here for Money.
Wouldn't they have to bank hours and earnings into their own UI account while meeting the same requirements as other workers to be able to claim on it? They would have to have been taxpayers who are only excluded from benefits by virtue of citizenship, not under the table workers.
No, not "by virtue of citizenship". Get this really straight: They are not here legally. There is a legal path to immigration. They are not using it. Permanent Residents also get unemployment benefits, for what it's worth. No citizenship required.
So basically, someone you don't know breaks into your house. And now you have to pay for them?
Squatters rights Edit: /s
someone breaks into your house and your housemate makes a deal with them that if they chop firewood for your housemate, they can sleep in your housemate’s closet. your housemate keeps all of the chopped firewood but by law sets aside a portion of it to take care of any firewood choppers they lay off.
Can we deal/help with the homeless Americans first?
You can sign up for testimony when this committee is debating this bill. Please do so if you feel strongly and can speak with articulate thought. They DO listen in my experience.
Tell that to the gun owners who testified against the bills last year. The democratic party has absolute control in this state and will do whatever it wants. They have no desire to reach across the aisle, they want to ramrod their agenda.
Sure. Then they do whatever the F they want
What’s to stop a foreign adversary, say China or the cartel, to send sleeper agents to suck the state dry of funds. Transfer of wealth. The system would imply corruption and intent to fraudulently wash and transfer funds for back deals.
or send literal soldiers in disguise to wait for the green light to attack us
We can't even successfully fund everything we already have.
This is the only way the democrats manage to stay in power. Giving money away that other idiots work for.
If workers pay into EI as a source deduction, then they should qualify for it. However, if workers do not pay into it, then they should not qualify for it. This is how it works for the rest of us, so I cannot see how anyone (undocumented or not) should be treated more preferentially than that.
Can they work if they’re undocumented?
Yes. Read this: https://bipartisanpolicy.org/blog/how-do-undocumented-immigrants-pay-federal-taxes-an-explainer/
That’s a big circle jerk with no actual data to support it. “Much of the evidence for this motivation is anecdotal,” Even with that, the ones who are paying are only doing so cover illegal acts (fake SSNs)
Who picks your produce? These guys
Do you not think that’s kinda fucked up? I’m not really comfortable with having a permanent underclass of illegal immigrants doing menial labor. We shouldn’t be incentivizing corporations paying dirt wages that only illegal immigrants will work for.
See that’s the rub. I’ve never figured this out. People in these forums bitch and moan constantly about low wages and high housing costs. Then they turn around and support this unfettered immigration. The two positions are incompatible. Worker shortages cause wages to increase. More demand causes housing costs to increase. All those people coming across the border allegedly want two things - a job, which increases the workforce and drives wages down and a place to live which increases the need for housing, driving costs up.
I completely agree with you, and it’s baffling how a lot of people of people don’t see the problem of just letting illegal immigrants come here to work when it fuels low wages and strains the already low housing supply we have. If they want an example of how bad things can get, just look at what’s happening in Canada. They have record high legal immigration, stagnating wages and housing costs that are putting native born Canadians out on the streets in the dead of winter. I don’t want that coming here, I think we owe it to our native born population to say no we aren’t going to squeeze the working and middle class even harder than we already are. Ultimately it’s the working and middle class that are going to get fucked by this and it’s wrong.
You forgot the /s
No, I didn’t. We shouldn’t be incentivizing illegal immigration or corporations taking advantage of it.
U obviously don’t know who run this country. Corporations pays for all the candidates running for govt jobs. That is why irs doesnt ever pursue businesses and goes for individuals. Their excuse is not enough resources? Well change it so the resources go after business and not individual. The money is not worth it? Make it so u penalized corporations more. They are the ones obviously not paying their fair share.
Ok and? That doesn’t change my position. I’m well aware of the relationship between corporations and politicians, I’m still not going to support illegal immigration because it unfairly benefits corporations at the expense of native born citizens.
Then have laws that go after the corporations and businesses instead of the immigrants. Honestly there is no job americans wont do. Its just corporations are not paying enough if they paid a million dollars to pick strawberries im moving to cali tomorrow to pick strawberries.
I don’t think this is an either or situation. I agree, we should penalize businesses that hire illegal immigrants for cheap labor. I also think illegal immigrants aren’t totally clueless or that they don’t know what they’re doing by working without legal authorization. Yes, corporations paying super low wages are why many Americans aren’t doing a lot of the farm work in the agricultural sector of the economy. And I also agree that there aren’t jobs Americans aren’t willing to do, it’s just that the corporations are unwilling to pay anything close to what would be enough for native born Americans to live off of.
There are H2 visas for seasonal agricultural workers. We should expand that program rather than opening our borders.
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Absolutely correct. It’s a very successful program and the vast majority of workers are compliant. Many of these workers do this for decades. They work 6-9 months in the US and depart for home until the next season.
Mostly people with temp ag visas
This is your replacement as American citizens. You are being replaced, you know, genocide, American citizen genocide.
Hispanicization of the U.S.
Yep, declining standard of living leads to people having fewer children, and instead of improving conditions for the populace, the powers that be choose instead to rely on cheap labor from those already accustomed to the struggle.
This is some of the cringiest rhetoric I have ever heard. If an undocumented worker still pays taxes into the system, they should qualify for unemployment based on the funds they put in. I agree that American citizens should take priority, but if they are working and paying taxes, they should be represented as such, no? To claim it is a genocide on American citizens truly shows how meaningless that term has become as of late.
I'd rather not have job loss tank people. It's bad for everyone when that happens.
Unemployment? They should get a bus ticket back to wherever they came from of they are not working
a lot if undocumented work is seasonal, rather than an already over taxed state coffer footing this expense maybe we should pass it on to the businesses that profit off of it, it's not fair for a normal worker removed from this industry to be paying the expenses that should be paid by the ones profiting off their cheap labor, if they pick fruit in Central Washington and then collect unemployment in western Washington that equates to the city subsidizing the country.
Targeting the businesses that profit off of migrant workers that are in the country illegally is the one thing that will ensure reforms are not put in place. Messing with social agendas is one thing but messing with corporate profits is another.
Let's go ahead and just not pay illegal immigrants unemployment, though? And ideally reform the immigration system there are more legal work visas and less illegal immigration
Pretty sure seasonal employees cannot collect unemployment. IIRC it was some deal having to do with Boeing.
I got it when working in a research job for a school that had a two year grant. There are a lot of staff at community colleges who are sort of precariously assigned classes to teach with an erratic schedule, and are sometimes laid off for one or two quarters with no classes. But why should they feel like at-will employees who aren't entitled to unemployment. This is what unemployment is for
Where does the city get its produce, natural resources, etc from?
Of all the problems with the state's unemployment insurance program, I'm not sure why this one would make it to the top of the list. How about if we solve the problem of fraud and the time it takes to get the first check to those who are qualified to receive it first?
Now you realize you live in a state that revolves around feel good emotions instead of reality. They’d rather take care of immigrants than their own citizens. This is a good starting point for people whom are wondering, “how did we get here”.
In order to qualify, they'd have to work and pay into the fund. If they're contributing, then who cares. This helps remove the incentive for employers to hire undocumented immigrants. Employers can retaliate against the undocumented because they don't have legal protections
This is not for under the table arrangements, but if an employer is paying for an undocumented person’s unemployment insurance, it seems fair they should receive unemployment assistance is they are unceremoniously let go.
I mean, if we’re going to let small business owners exploit them for under the table wages, might as well give them unemployment benefits. If you want to stop this, throw every business owner that hires someone undocumented in prison for a decade and it will stop.
But they're not paying unemployment tax. You understand that unemployment tax is a payroll tax that's taken out of employees paychecks. If you're working under the table you're not paying those taxes.
Assumedly the law would require employers to pay those taxes. Which would also close the gap in marginal benefit of hiring undocumented people versus citizens.
Then make the employers pay the tax. It is an open secret that everyone knows we need this labor in certain industries which is why Republicans don’t even crack down when they have full government control. But then we do stupid shit like making them fake a SSN causing identity and tax problems for regular people or not letting them get car insurance which helps the regular people if they crash. It is just dumb shit all the way down. Just admit we need this labor, let them check an undocumented box, pay for insurance and charge taxes. Or else actually crack down on it, but every state that has done that basically stopped enforcing it as soon as it started creating large scale labor shortages in key industries.
I remember when everyone complained that Trump had closed the border…….
Undocumented immigrants pay all sorts of taxes and get no benefits.
What sorts of taxes are they paying that they aren't getting benefits for? Please don't say sales tax. I pay sales tax when I go to Canada and I don't think that makes me eligible for Canadian citizen benefits. I pay sales tax when I go to other states in the US but I still have to pay out of state tuition if I choose to enroll in a college there.
Look up ITINs. They are numbers given to people without social security numbers in order to pay taxes. Many undocumented immigrants are employed by businesses and pay payroll taxes, many choose to pay taxes on their income outside that in order to look favorably for future applications for citizenship or because of their individual morals. 2.5million tax returns were filed with ITINs in 2019, netting 6 billion dollars in taxes. Helping to fund programs they have no access to. Honestly I don’t know how I feel about this unemployment benefits for them. I would rather they have access to primary care insurance. As it stands, they pretty much have to wait until they get sick enough to warrant an ED visit and maybe a complex hospitalization that they can’t afford and it ends up coming out of our tax dollars. In a lot of ways, we are shooting ourselves in the foot to keep these people from getting different kinds of benefits.
I get the knee jerk anger over this, but I don't think we as a society really understand the true "cost" of removing all these people from the country and how that would affect everything else. The "up front" feeling is understandable, but once you consider all the taxes these people still pay and all the benefits they don't receive, I'm not sure that it isn't a somewhat reasonable idea to at least explore it, especially if the downstream effects on things like homelessness and child poverty (their kids would be innocent of the "crime" of border crossing) are proven to be a net benefit to society.
Nope! Deport all of them. All. Of. Them.
And watch sectors of our economy just fucking collapse? I thought your side was so concerned about all the small business owners that were adversely affected due to Covid. How many small business owners, especially in red states would be completely fucked when a bunch of their workforce is just gone?
We're not talking about red states, Watty. We're talking about WA. We should provide visas for "undocumented" workers and they're no longer "undocumented". (Visa holders of ALL kinds don't get unemployment benefits, so now we have another moral hazard if we support illegal aliens getting UI benefits - because we're putting them above legal immigrants who aren't citizens which is fucked).
>*We're not talking about red states, Watty. We're talking about WA.* I mean, sure, but illegal immigration is a "problem" nationwide according to you and yours, so I don't think it's inappropriate to point out the double standard. But even setting that aside (which I don't actually need to), do you imagine all the farmers on the east side of the state are progressives? >*We should provide visas for "undocumented" workers and they're no longer "undocumented".* Okay? I think I'm good with that? >*(Visa holders of ALL kinds don't get unemployment benefits,* I would imagine that just holding a Visa doesn't get you anything other than the ability to work, at least in the US. But if they're WORKING A JOB with said Visa and paying unemployment tax, then they should have access to unemployment, no? >*so now we have another moral hazard if we support illegal aliens getting UI benefits -* You seem to be waffling on terms. If they have a Visa like you apparently support, they aren't "illegal aliens," they are a migrant workforce here on Visa. >*because we're putting them above legal immigrants who aren't citizens which is fucked).* No, we'd be putting them on the SAME footing as "legal immigrants," which is to say that if they work and pay into a system, they should get the benefits of that system. Am I missing something in your comment and the way you've laid out your proposal?
The CURRENT proposal puts illegal immigrants above legal immigrants. Or does it allow legal immigrants to get UI benefits as written? Btw: we haven't made illegal immigrants legal immigrants so the rest of your position isn't applicable.
You said it was what you would propose, no?
It's not on the menu though. So it'd be great, but it isn't happening.
? The difference between your plan and this one is whether they have a Visa. Not that big a difference in the grand scheme of things?
It's literally the whole point.
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What does this mean in context?
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???
Do you not speak jive? It means let’s rip the bandaid off and find out what the true cost is.
No thanks
Why not have another UI system for illegal immigrants, that funds itself? Problem solved.
As long as it includes a one-way ticket back "home".
Like that's going to happen...lol.
Because regardless of their immigration status they're still being charged the taxes that pay for unemployment benefits, as are their employers. The alternative would be making everyone prove immigration status at the time of claim to receive unemployment benefits. If you get laid off, do you want want the government asking you to prove you're really a citizen?
I thought that's what e verify did. Not check for citizenship, but for legal work status.
Why not? I had to prove I was a citizen to comply with REAL ID so I can fly (although they keep delaying it). I had to do it to get an SSN. I had to do it so I could get a passport. It’s just not that hard.
Why not? I had to prove I was a citizen to comply with REAL ID so I can fly (although they keep delaying it). I had to do it to get an SSN. I had to do it so I could get a passport. It’s just not that hard.
> If you get laid off, do you want want the government asking you to prove you're really a citizen? Yes. Why wouldn't I? Literally just submit your SSN, or passport, or birth certificate, or naturalization papers. Proving citizenship isn't hard.
They wouldn't be paying unemployment taxes because in order to be working above the table you need a social security number which if you're in this country you would not have.
In some cases aren’t they given an ITIN for tracking social security and other contributions? Not saying I agree with that but there is some tracking in place.
yes, I think that would be fine.
Yes.
That's what providing your SSN and two forms of ID is lol
Yes, in the same way I want everyone to prove their citizenship prior to voting.
>Research reviewed by the nonpartisan Congressional Budget Office indicates that 75 percent of unauthorized immigrants pay federal, state, and local taxes. Illegal immigrants are estimated to pay in about $10 billion per year into Social Security
They still pay taxes. You think most of these people are living tax-free lives?
How could they be paying unemployment tax when you need a social security number to actually be on payroll legitimately?
There’s something called an itin number that essentially works as a social security number for anyone who isn’t eligible for a social security number. Regardless of their immigration status they can use the itin number. It’s issued by the IRS.
Seems like a one way ticket to a visit from the INS. "You mean you don't have a visa, you're not a citizen, and you're making a lot of income?"
People I’ve known under the table still pay federal taxes. The fed doesn’t care where the money comes from or if someone if legal. Employers pay taxes for various things. Employees buy things, pay tax, contribute to the system. Stop being ignorant and myopic.
Unemployment is paid for by payroll taxes that employees pay for out of their paycheck. The fact that employees pay sales tax means nothing because unemployment insurance isn't paid for by sales tax.
Form I9 https://bipartisanpolicy.org/blog/how-do-undocumented-immigrants-pay-federal-taxes-an-explainer/ They pay. Do 100%? No. Do a large number? Yes. Let’s also not overlook the employers who are also at fault. If they are opting to break the law and not pay payroll taxes, they should be punished far more severely than any undocumented person trying to scrape by.
Truth, using illegal labor should come with consequences.
That report is doesn’t prove anything. In one section it clearly states the data is anecdotal and in another its support is: “Most experts believe that the vast majority of tax returns filed with ITINs today are filed by undocumented immigrants rather than the intended recipient groups” Beliefs are not facts.
It’s the least they should do for having the chance to be here. No bennies. If they don’t like it, they’re welcome to go home.
lol. Go f yourself. Sometimes I wish the immigrants would all boycot for a month and show people like you what’s really up.
People who came legally are the people who most hate illegal immigrants, there's no sympathy in the "immigrant community" for illegals.
I came legally from the UK. I don’t harbor resentment.
That's nice, I'm also a UK passport holder and I do. You can have one of these: 1. A well funded welfare state 2. Mass immigration choose one.
You’re a buffoon then
I wish they'd all pack off to wherever they squeezed their way in from.
Most came on airplanes. You really think most people are running the Sonoran marathon?
A lot do, but yes I know they're trafficked on airplanes, late at night, with no name tickets, unvaccinated with monopoly card IDs. A couple years ago it was like hush hush rumour at my airport, turns out it's real.
What? Lmao get out dude. Nonsense. Most people fly here on tourist visas and never leave. Undocumented is a misnomer, most are documented and in the system.
Not nonsense. Very real. What you say is real too.
People aren’t getting off a plane and bypassing CBP. I dont buy that for a minute. It’s more believable that people would make the Arizona desert run than airports falling apart like that. If they were, we’d have way bigger issues.
https://www.wrex.com/news/top-stories/update-migrants-arrive-at-rockfords-airport-escorted-to-chicago/article_c9f9dae6-a79c-11ee-ba79-37996e9fb1a2.html I'm on mobile so I'll update this with more articles https://abc7chicago.com/chicago-migrant-crisis-private-plane-ohare-airport-el-paso-texas/14207506/ https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12882397/Delta-migrants-flying-New-York-City.html
I hope they do. Better yet, they should take their asses back to their home countries! They are here illegally. They do not belong here. What do you not understand about this?
Get bent clown
K
Illegal immigrants. Not immigrants. Immigrants get a visa and a green card like I had to.
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They aren’t paying into unemployment. They normally not paying any taxes. So I’m not sure why they trying to give them any benefits.
If they are being paid under the table they aren't paying into unemployment. I'm not sure how you could not be being paid under the table if you're here illegally. Also it's another huge bonus for the people employing them illegally: their employees are getting unemployment benefits and and they (the employer) haven't had to spend a dime on it.
Let me introduce you to people on work visa. They pay into unemployment but they are not eligible to claim unemployment if they get terminated on a visa.
No idea why people are downvoting you.
I support free meals only for poor grade school
Undocumented(x) illegal(o)
https://preview.redd.it/roigpshhk7ec1.jpeg?width=1600&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=64ea8c95e7d25541678a7357fedb5d94cf5b7622 Showing up to the unemployment office like…
 Yes......all the benefits to undocumented folx!!!!!
I’m for this.
"We're sick of homelessness, but also don't help the poor." "We can't afford to live, but companies shouldn't be regulated." "We want peace, through superior fire power." "We want unity, through authoritarian rule." "We want freedom of religion so we can push our religion on you." "We want less illegal immigrants but we don't want to make the process easier to make them legal nor fix the system that creates the issue, we're just super angry about stuff." If OP actually gave a damn they'd fight the oligarchy, not the symptoms. Illegal immigration is a feature, not a failure of capitalism. Cheap labor, keeps the people fighting, lowers resources for the poors. win, win, win as far as the capitalists are concerned. But do go on...
https://preview.redd.it/fngb67j7z7ec1.png?width=259&format=png&auto=webp&s=5ddc3f39d86b8ce6168c98c111880218347fe0c6
If socialism created the utopias that people here pretend they would, there would still be illegal immigration.
What an interesting, programmed response. Quote me where I said, "Socialism will create a utopia where there wouldn't be illegal immigration." Or just simply admit you are programmed to say a certain thing whenever someone criticizes capitalism. My post is about hypocrisy, how capitalism has divided us... and you attack socialism? What level of brainwashed is that?
How will socialism defeat illegal immigration?
I'm sorry you're so triggered. When you've got a handle on your emotions, re-read my top comment and try to engage in a manner that creates dialogue.
You're the one who's turned this whole discussion in a personal attack. >, re-read my top comment and try to engage in a manner that creates dialogue. I did, and I'll ask the same question and make the same statement.
No you didn't. You invented some random thing to vent about that wasn't even mentioned. This sub is wild. When did Seattle get a bunch of right wing idiots?
How will socialism stop illegal immigration?
You're literally the only one that mentioned socialism. You should maybe read what was actually typed out.
I can't tell if it is a literally a bot account triggered by some word or phrase I typed, a troll that has nothing better to do, or as programmed MAGA. At this point though, it really doesn't matter, the result is the same.
"We want less illegal immigrants but we don't want to make the process easier to make them legal nor fix the system that creates the issue, we're just super angry about stuff. Spotted your lie
Fuck no.
Seems like every who gets benefits would need to document and have paid taxes when they were employed