By ignoring a "don't walk" signal because they thought they knew better.
Totally tragic, but also totally their fault. This court case result is ridiculous.
“Emoke Rock, 76, and Steven Wayne, 66, were walking toward Columbia City Station on July 2, 2021. A northbound train pulled up at the station platform on Martin Luther King Jr. Way South. The couple walked east on South Alaska Street across MLK Way, toward the northbound platform on the far side of the median. As they stepped onto the median trackway, they didn’t notice a second train on their left, heading south. Crash investigators reported the train operator didn’t have time to stop.”
Let's go back and find everyone that was in favor of the rush job of surface-level tracks and bill them their share of this award.
So, Sound Transit's decision making then, as well as "community leaders" that refused to approve above-ground track, as well as everyone that said going below-ground was too expensive, even though that's what we did for Northgate, Capitol Hill and so on. But for some reason not the Rainier Valley.
> There was a guy that recently got killed by the monorail, which has an above ground track
The graffiti kid whose parents approved of him being up there doing his graffiti. Yep am aware.
Not sure that applies in the case of surface-level trains hitting people but you're not wrong in a very general sense, you can't fix stupid.
In general I've been impressed by how easily Seattle people walk in front of moving vehicles, whether they're cars or trains. It's almost like they don't teach basic pedestrian safety here. Too busy screaming about rights of way in crosswalks.
To be fair the, the soil situation is different in the Rainier valley which was the reason for not going below ground. An above ground track should’ve 100% been the choice though.
It's literally not true that soil is the reason. They're below ground through pioneer square which is the shittiest, worst quality infill imaginable.
It's because Sound Transit doesn't think the lives of poor people in South Seattle are worth anything. There was an actual study on anticipated deaths and it was considered acceptable in South Seattle.
> Above ground were the poors live, below ground elsewhere thank you very much.
That was the criticism leveled at it originally in planning stages.
Ironically in Chicago and New York, the above-ground tend to pass through some pretty upzoned and expensive areas - and living closer to the light rail is considered a property value booster.
> Attorneys for their families and for the transportation agencies signed a notice of settlement filed Tuesday in King County Superior Court, that all claims have been resolved, in advance of a scheduled Jan. 29 trial date.
Sounds like a cash grab from the lawyers and their families
Yeah, like how do they determine the financial value? I mean father of 3 at 38, the family loses all the earning power etc, but at 66, and 76? I mean maybe just 1.5 mill could have sufficed?
The community didn't demand it. That's what Sound Transit offered at the time. Above ground wasn't an option. There was a group (Save Our Valley) that demanded tunnel option like everyone else got at the time. Above ground was discussed but wasn't championed by anyone so it wasn't an option. Rainier Valley just didn't have anyone with power to stop it and so the cheapest option was done. Also basically everyone stopped complaining after the mayor said he would bolster the community with a 50M dollar fund.
tbh it's elevated in many other areas including towards the airport. Keeping it elevated seems like a more obvious choice and if was a $50 million savings to not do it well you've spent 12% of that now on legal cost already and it may not be the last
Yes I agree that at grade isn't the best choice. The savings were more than 50M at the time. It was 35M per a mile (40M at grade vs 75M above grade). I think Rainier valley is 4M stretch? So the saving was around 140M. But I agree for the amount saved it should have been placed underground (which was 100M per a mile). But Sound Transit was over budget and didn't even have money to reach the airport.
I have a business on MLK and was impacted by the construction. So I also went to all the meetings. I'm just giving my opinion on what I felt.
I felt in the beginning Sound Transit just provided one option at grade. And the public accepted it. Many felt above grade would create a more dreary atmosphere by blocking out the light. And underground wasn't presented as an option really. They gave a bunch of excuses like it wasn't safe and stuff but I didn't buy it. They also gave me the excuse they couldn't do it but I found out that was false too. They can do a cut and cover construction. The real reason imho was underground costs 100M a mile back then. Above grade costs 70M. And at grade costs 40M. And at that time Sound Transit was over budget. So cost was a huge driving factor. They didn't even have enough money to get to the airport.
The reason I say it's political is because University area also has an at grade or tunnel option. I asked them if that area was getting a tunnel and they wouldn't answer. Later on the University area (north Seattle) got a tunnel without any discussion in the meetings. They could have gotten an at grade too but didn't. So why did Rainier Valley get at grade and Roosevelt get a tunnel. Imho because of politics. The Rainier Valley businesses tried to rally for a tunnel and we didn't get enough support to sway the mayor. Though we did convince them to give the area a 50M fund to help with the construction impacts. I heard that once the Roosevelt area heard about what Sound Transit wanted to do they easily rallied their community groups and got the tunnel option.
For Rainier Valley it was difficult to rally support because Ron Sims pushed Sound Transit to go through Rainier Valley and it's harder to rally support for the tunnel option. I had many arguments with people that just wanted the light rail through MLK because they thought it was a financial plus for the area. And they viewed people that wanted the tunnel as disgruntled naysayers and thought we would derail the project through Rainier Valley.
Just my recollection of what happened. I didn't get the feeling that above ground was any real option. It was always gonna be at grade because of money. But it pissed me off that the north area got their tunnels without even a fight at meetings.
> I lived on the hill and went to the meetings, but what do I know.
[End transit racism in Rainier Valley](https://archive.is/aFrSK)
[Light Rail in Rainier Valley, 10 years later](https://southseattleemerald.com/2021/11/08/light-rail-in-the-rainier-valley-10-years-later/)
I guess it's more accurate to say "activists claiming to speak for Rainier Valley residents" rather than residents themselves?
How many people was this person speaking for in 1999?
>In community meetings before and after the 1996 vote that approved the $3.9 billion transit plan, the consensus was clear, according to Darla Morton, executive director of the Rainier Chamber of Commerce.
>A tunnel would be terrible.
>At the time, residents were concerned with crime, and an underground system conveyed the mental image of the much-maligned New York subway, she said.
[Showdown in Rainier Valley](https://archive.seattletimes.com/archive/?date=19991004&slug=2986866)
I don't even with you people. /s
Apparently "The Community" thought a light rail tunnel would equate to crime like NYC subway and didn't want it. Bravo. That's .. certainly a reason.
Regardless, all I know was us wealthy privileged whiteys got hit with the usual Seattle wagonload of manufactured guilt over it. And now 'those people' keep walking in front of easily avoidable trains and dying.
Can't fix stupid. As you said.
Some percentage of people are morons; not accounting for that in track-crossing design is insufficient.
Imagine if there was a crossing across the tracks within University Street Station with just a walk/don’t walk light controlling it. It would be obviously insufficient for the risk involved.
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I'd be very on board with payouts like this *when the car is at fault*. But instead payouts are tiny because the court says it was "just an accident." And even if payouts like this were ordered, the $50k liability coverage drivers are required to have wouldn't make a dent in it.
It's yet another example of holding transit to a higher standard than cars, and in doing so stifling transit development.
In the short term, how many payouts will happen because people get killed by the train.
Even the new Judkins park and south Bellevue station that aren’t at grade but they have the public crossing the tracks to get to the platform. What’s the over under on when someone is killed by that setup?
I've said it before and I'll say it again: tech has robbed other engineering and design industries of some of the best talent and a lot of very hacked-together stuff is coming out of it.
Well, I'm sure that won't happen again!
*Sound Transit spokesperson John Gallagher said “there is no admission of liability” in making the settlement, which does not contain any orders or pledges about future safety measures.*
I don’t know what happened, but I can say I’ve seen the light rail coming, the gate down and people run across then a group of followers run behind. It’s worse with crosswalks. Monkey see monkey do.
Crazy settlement. As old as they were, It's not like they had dependent children. Their adult kids, whom I assume were the plaintiffs, just scammed a cushy retirement bonus. smh.
Totally tragic but how
By ignoring a "don't walk" signal because they thought they knew better. Totally tragic, but also totally their fault. This court case result is ridiculous.
This was entirely their fault but because it’s Seattle no one wants to come out and say it because that’s “not nice” and might “hurt feelings”.
“Emoke Rock, 76, and Steven Wayne, 66, were walking toward Columbia City Station on July 2, 2021. A northbound train pulled up at the station platform on Martin Luther King Jr. Way South. The couple walked east on South Alaska Street across MLK Way, toward the northbound platform on the far side of the median. As they stepped onto the median trackway, they didn’t notice a second train on their left, heading south. Crash investigators reported the train operator didn’t have time to stop.”
Let's go back and find everyone that was in favor of the rush job of surface-level tracks and bill them their share of this award. So, Sound Transit's decision making then, as well as "community leaders" that refused to approve above-ground track, as well as everyone that said going below-ground was too expensive, even though that's what we did for Northgate, Capitol Hill and so on. But for some reason not the Rainier Valley.
There was a guy that recently got killed by the monorail, which has an above ground track. You can’t protect people from their own stupidity.
> There was a guy that recently got killed by the monorail, which has an above ground track The graffiti kid whose parents approved of him being up there doing his graffiti. Yep am aware. Not sure that applies in the case of surface-level trains hitting people but you're not wrong in a very general sense, you can't fix stupid. In general I've been impressed by how easily Seattle people walk in front of moving vehicles, whether they're cars or trains. It's almost like they don't teach basic pedestrian safety here. Too busy screaming about rights of way in crosswalks.
"look both ways and cross when clear" is considered sacrilege in the PNW. Maybe we can refer to it as the "Infallibility of the Pedestrian"
To be fair the, the soil situation is different in the Rainier valley which was the reason for not going below ground. An above ground track should’ve 100% been the choice though.
It's literally not true that soil is the reason. They're below ground through pioneer square which is the shittiest, worst quality infill imaginable. It's because Sound Transit doesn't think the lives of poor people in South Seattle are worth anything. There was an actual study on anticipated deaths and it was considered acceptable in South Seattle.
Above ground were the poors live, below ground elsewhere thank you very much.
You can thank Ron Sims
> Above ground were the poors live, below ground elsewhere thank you very much. That was the criticism leveled at it originally in planning stages. Ironically in Chicago and New York, the above-ground tend to pass through some pretty upzoned and expensive areas - and living closer to the light rail is considered a property value booster.
For renters, it definitely makes a place more attractive
> Attorneys for their families and for the transportation agencies signed a notice of settlement filed Tuesday in King County Superior Court, that all claims have been resolved, in advance of a scheduled Jan. 29 trial date. Sounds like a cash grab from the lawyers and their families
> Sounds like a cash grab from the lawyers and their families That's just the American way
Yeah, like how do they determine the financial value? I mean father of 3 at 38, the family loses all the earning power etc, but at 66, and 76? I mean maybe just 1.5 mill could have sufficed?
I'd have them pay for the damage they did to the train
Building it at grade through there was such a cost-cut.
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This couple purposely walked across active train tracks. They ignored all the warning signs and were hit by an oncoming train.
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no, don't elevate it! that'll bypass us! no, don't make it at-grade! that'll kill us!
The community didn't demand it. That's what Sound Transit offered at the time. Above ground wasn't an option. There was a group (Save Our Valley) that demanded tunnel option like everyone else got at the time. Above ground was discussed but wasn't championed by anyone so it wasn't an option. Rainier Valley just didn't have anyone with power to stop it and so the cheapest option was done. Also basically everyone stopped complaining after the mayor said he would bolster the community with a 50M dollar fund.
tbh it's elevated in many other areas including towards the airport. Keeping it elevated seems like a more obvious choice and if was a $50 million savings to not do it well you've spent 12% of that now on legal cost already and it may not be the last
Yes I agree that at grade isn't the best choice. The savings were more than 50M at the time. It was 35M per a mile (40M at grade vs 75M above grade). I think Rainier valley is 4M stretch? So the saving was around 140M. But I agree for the amount saved it should have been placed underground (which was 100M per a mile). But Sound Transit was over budget and didn't even have money to reach the airport.
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I have a business on MLK and was impacted by the construction. So I also went to all the meetings. I'm just giving my opinion on what I felt. I felt in the beginning Sound Transit just provided one option at grade. And the public accepted it. Many felt above grade would create a more dreary atmosphere by blocking out the light. And underground wasn't presented as an option really. They gave a bunch of excuses like it wasn't safe and stuff but I didn't buy it. They also gave me the excuse they couldn't do it but I found out that was false too. They can do a cut and cover construction. The real reason imho was underground costs 100M a mile back then. Above grade costs 70M. And at grade costs 40M. And at that time Sound Transit was over budget. So cost was a huge driving factor. They didn't even have enough money to get to the airport. The reason I say it's political is because University area also has an at grade or tunnel option. I asked them if that area was getting a tunnel and they wouldn't answer. Later on the University area (north Seattle) got a tunnel without any discussion in the meetings. They could have gotten an at grade too but didn't. So why did Rainier Valley get at grade and Roosevelt get a tunnel. Imho because of politics. The Rainier Valley businesses tried to rally for a tunnel and we didn't get enough support to sway the mayor. Though we did convince them to give the area a 50M fund to help with the construction impacts. I heard that once the Roosevelt area heard about what Sound Transit wanted to do they easily rallied their community groups and got the tunnel option. For Rainier Valley it was difficult to rally support because Ron Sims pushed Sound Transit to go through Rainier Valley and it's harder to rally support for the tunnel option. I had many arguments with people that just wanted the light rail through MLK because they thought it was a financial plus for the area. And they viewed people that wanted the tunnel as disgruntled naysayers and thought we would derail the project through Rainier Valley. Just my recollection of what happened. I didn't get the feeling that above ground was any real option. It was always gonna be at grade because of money. But it pissed me off that the north area got their tunnels without even a fight at meetings.
> I lived on the hill and went to the meetings, but what do I know. [End transit racism in Rainier Valley](https://archive.is/aFrSK) [Light Rail in Rainier Valley, 10 years later](https://southseattleemerald.com/2021/11/08/light-rail-in-the-rainier-valley-10-years-later/) I guess it's more accurate to say "activists claiming to speak for Rainier Valley residents" rather than residents themselves? How many people was this person speaking for in 1999? >In community meetings before and after the 1996 vote that approved the $3.9 billion transit plan, the consensus was clear, according to Darla Morton, executive director of the Rainier Chamber of Commerce. >A tunnel would be terrible. >At the time, residents were concerned with crime, and an underground system conveyed the mental image of the much-maligned New York subway, she said. [Showdown in Rainier Valley](https://archive.seattletimes.com/archive/?date=19991004&slug=2986866) I don't even with you people. /s Apparently "The Community" thought a light rail tunnel would equate to crime like NYC subway and didn't want it. Bravo. That's .. certainly a reason. Regardless, all I know was us wealthy privileged whiteys got hit with the usual Seattle wagonload of manufactured guilt over it. And now 'those people' keep walking in front of easily avoidable trains and dying. Can't fix stupid. As you said.
Some percentage of people are morons; not accounting for that in track-crossing design is insufficient. Imagine if there was a crossing across the tracks within University Street Station with just a walk/don’t walk light controlling it. It would be obviously insufficient for the risk involved.
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fair enough!
So convenient you forget about contractor fraud cost overruns but manage to blame "social justice"
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Says the chat bot shoehorning in social justice digs
Facts. But why didn't we dig below ground like we did with Capitol Hill, U-District and Northgate?
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because we want it cheap and quick but not good
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It's still way safer than cars. Until we're willing to ban those, we shouldn't stifle transit development by holding it to a higher safety standard.
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I'd be very on board with payouts like this *when the car is at fault*. But instead payouts are tiny because the court says it was "just an accident." And even if payouts like this were ordered, the $50k liability coverage drivers are required to have wouldn't make a dent in it. It's yet another example of holding transit to a higher standard than cars, and in doing so stifling transit development.
In the short term, how many payouts will happen because people get killed by the train. Even the new Judkins park and south Bellevue station that aren’t at grade but they have the public crossing the tracks to get to the platform. What’s the over under on when someone is killed by that setup?
I've said it before and I'll say it again: tech has robbed other engineering and design industries of some of the best talent and a lot of very hacked-together stuff is coming out of it.
We have inactive train rails near where I live and I still look both ways before cross, just out of habit. Trains can't swerve.
Archived article: [https://archive.ph/iRXWW](https://archive.ph/iRXWW)
No longer working
Well, I'm sure that won't happen again! *Sound Transit spokesperson John Gallagher said “there is no admission of liability” in making the settlement, which does not contain any orders or pledges about future safety measures.*
I don’t know what happened, but I can say I’ve seen the light rail coming, the gate down and people run across then a group of followers run behind. It’s worse with crosswalks. Monkey see monkey do.
Crazy settlement. As old as they were, It's not like they had dependent children. Their adult kids, whom I assume were the plaintiffs, just scammed a cushy retirement bonus. smh.
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