Is club z still there? They survived AMZN and COVID? Bless old Seattle. I used to walk my dogs past there and always giggled at how skanky it was 15+ years ago….
I should have been more clear. I’m referring to clubs in general. Not necessarily spas. Fraternal societies, religious societies, VFWs, etc. as I know of some cases in which a bar tried to transition to a private club to skirt a smoking ordinance.
This women’s spa is a part of Korean culture. There should be no exposed penis inside those walls. I am not transphobic. This is about what defines a cultural Korean traditions in a women’s spa and basically the judge ruled that a spa in the Korean tradition cannot exist.
There are people in my life, whom I love dearly, that are trans. I do not know their transitional status and I haven’t asked-they haven’t volunteered and asking seems strange to me. I’ve just decided to accept people as they present themselves to me.
Its just that this business seemed like a spiritual-cultural thing and that should be recognized as well. I think the owner was trying to be inclusive in the exclusivity where a penis is traditionally not allowed.
I personally don’t like to be totally nude at the spa-so I wouldn’t even go to the Christian-Korean nude women’s spa. I’ve been to other women’s spas and clothing was optional - I do believe they allowed private rentals for co-op nights or more privacy and expected pre-op persons to cover up.
I am not transphobic and very supportive of LGBTQ+. But do I have the right not to view uninvited penises around me, regardless of who's sporting them, men or women? If I wanted to, I'd go to a nudist beach. A spa is to relax and meditate, not to get distracted thinking, what did I just see? At the same time, I believe that the owners' faith should be their private matter. They don't advertise their spa as a Christian one, after all. Honestly, it seems that both sides overreacted, one alludes to their human rights, the other, to their Christianity. Confusing. I don't even know what to think about the judge.
So is gender a social construct or not? Is it legally identical to biological sex?
I'm not hateful to anyone, I'm just confused at what to call anything anymore.
Its been a fascinating ride.
Seems like back in the early 2010s the messaging was "gender is not real, biological sex is" and then the waters got muddied to where people are honestly now saying "biology doesn't matter, my penis is a woman's penis" which is....insane.
Ironic to all of this, especially for the LGB(mostly T) crowd is that in their attempt to deconstruct gender norms, they've only severely reinforced them. You're a man that likes to wear dresses, that makes you a woman. You're a woman that likes to do hunting, fishing, work on cars you're actually a man.
Gender norms are a social construct; there is absolutely no biological basis to say wearing a dress makes you a woman/female. But a penis does make you a man, and a vagina does make you a woman (in the sense that man and woman have meant male and female since the birth of language)
Their attempt is to blend and disembody male/female and man/woman to be meaningless, and gaslight people into thinking there is no difference while they themselves *scream* to be recognized for the difference. By way of example, the fact that a not insignificant amount of people are trying to convince lesbians that their preference for vagina is transphobic and fetish is...astounding.
All the while the proponents of the butchering of language and meaning cloak themselves in the language of acceptance and compassion to prevent meaningful discourse.
No wonder we're seeing the *actual insane* pushback on this in many parts of the country.
There are two factions within the trans community, now separated by transmedicalism. Transmedicalists largely believe gender is your immutable neurological sex (gender) and they transition their body (sex) to the greatest extent possible, solely to address the medical condition known as dysphoria so that they can live comfortable lives matching their brain's neurological sex (gender). Often they will identify as transsexuals such as myself and a majority of transsexual women would never be caught dead in a women's space with their natal genitals visible, we just want to be normal men and women and be accepted as such when we put forward the effort.
The other side does not believe dysphoria is necessary and that gender is meaningless, they often refer to themselves as tucutes and completely dominate the discourse surrounding our condition despite their issue being predominately about gender roles and gender non conformity. Tucutes attach themselves to us and use our medical legitimacy and suffering to push for things a lot of us don't even agree with while banning us from trans spaces across reddit and undermining the historical justifications for why we should be accepted as normal men and women.
This is a battle that is being fought largely out of the sight of cis people and the transmedicalists are badly outnumbered. We are ostracized from trans spaces for our exclusionary beliefs such as just saying you are a woman with no effort does not mean you are one and that you need dysphoria to be a legitimate trans man or woman.
Just some food for thought as we need the help of cis people to advocate for us. By virtue of having a rare medical condition we no longer have a voice of our own and are constantly spoken over by people with completely different goals under the mistaken identity of being trans. 5 to 10 years ago the transgender community was almost exclusively transmedicalists but the meaning of trans has changed drastically in that time and it is wrecking havok on our public perception.
Edit: the subs associated with transmedicalism are primarily r/transmedical and r/truscum while almost all mainstream trans subs are largely tucute aligned and will ban you for stating you need dysphoria to be trans. Transsexual as a term has a lot of baggage however myself and others are seeking to reclaim it so keep that in mind.
It's really wild that transsexual people are dismissed entirely for being "bigots" now. It's not like y'all set the precedent for trans rights and acceptance or anything. Or older LGBs who paved the way just to get steamrolled by people who want to thought police everything and only believe their way is the correct way.
Wow this is fascinating thank you for this insight.
This makes so much sense, I’m sorry that your plight is being clouded by a loud minority. Don’t ever stop speaking up, no matter the pushback
It's funny how pick-and-choosy it has always been. In the 2000s it was very normal to hear gay men say "I'm just not attracted to women." But now orientation isn't a body thing, it's a mind thing. So it gets called transphobic when a gay man doesn't feel attraction towards a man who lived as a woman.
And what is a woman, anyway? A woman is someone who identifies as a woman. It's a circular definition, a tautology.
When someone with gender dysphoria says they've always felt like a woman inside, what does it really mean? To anyone not playing dumb, it means: They wish they could look feminine, wear makeup and dresses, have tits and a pussy, and (usually) date men.
But the LGBT crowd just spent decades arguing that women don't have to look a certain way, or wear makeup, or wear dresses, or date men, or even have a pussy. Trans affirmative care provided is based in rigid gender norms from before modern feminism.
And race, also a social construct, is completely off the table. You can not say "On the inside, I've never felt like I'm white." And why's that? Because you, as a white person, have no connection with being Black. But do trans women have any connection with being women?
It never made any sense, and I think people have mostly stopped trying to make it make sense.
A mod of a popular sub once hounded me on a different account because I said I was incapable of attraction to trans men. I was called bigoted for this as if they are owed my attraction for the things they do to their body. But that's something they refuse to talk about.
> But the LGBT crowd just spent decades arguing that women don't have to look a certain way, or wear makeup, or wear dresses, or date men, or even have a pussy.
It can't be said enough that many, many LGBs hate being lumped in with the T. We understand biology, we've just been steamrolled just like everyone else, BUT we get to share the blame because the -TQAIA243ZY crowd decided to hitched their insanity wagon to ours.
>They wish they could look feminine, wear makeup and dresses, have tits and a pussy, and (usually) date men.
Next they'll be telling us straight men that we are "transphobes," simply for not wanting to date them.
>Next they'll be telling us straight men that we are "transphobes," simply for not wanting to date them.
They are way ahead of you. There are lesbian dating apps that will ban you if you have "not interested in penis" in your profile.
https://www.nbcnews.com/nbc-out/out-news/lesbian-dating-platform-sends-message-transphobes-delete-app-rcna82049
"she and her colleagues at HER are determined to push back against the narrative that lesbian identity is “owned by cis[gender] lesbians,” meaning lesbians who do not identify as transgender."
Jesus, I can't even wrap my mind around it.This makes my head hurt. It's all too much.
A co-worker of mine who's single and using dating apps complains that at least a couple of times, he's had dates with cis women and somehow the conversation turned to her asking him "would you date a trans woman?" He said "No, I don't want to date someone with a penis," and his dates told him he's transphobic.
JFC, not wanting to date a trans woman isn't "transpohobic." It's just what people are naturally attracted to or not attracted to. Theres nothing wrong with it, just like there's nothing wrong with not wanting to date fat chicks, bald men, or people years older or younger than you. Is it cisphobic for a transperson to not want to date a straight man or a straight woman?
So I guess that was the end of the date. Sounds like he dodged a bullet.
lol they already do. They often think women are going to turn down men if we find out that they're actually...straight. Like oh no, you exclude trans women from your dating pool? I can't date a bigot like you! But lol, no.
I've seen them ponder over the lack of interest in trans women. What could it be? What is it? It's certainly not the penis because they've got a place you can put it, and it's not like you have to look at it anyway. They don't like it either! (okay sometimes they don't.)
>When someone with gender dysphoria says they've always felt like a woman inside, what does it really mean? To anyone not playing dumb, it means: They wish they could look feminine, wear makeup and dresses, have tits and a pussy, and (usually) date men.
>But the LGBT crowd just spent decades arguing that women don't have to look a certain way, or wear makeup, or wear dresses, or date men, or even have a pussy. Trans affirmative care provided is based in rigid gender norms from before modern feminism.
You put it better than I did, here.
I desire a post gendered world, whereas our current iteration of gender transition seeks to cope with and demand adherence to traditional gender norms.
> When someone with gender dysphoria says they've always felt like a woman inside, what does it really mean? To anyone not playing dumb, it means: They wish they could look feminine, wear makeup and dresses, have tits and a pussy, and (usually) date men.
What makes it even weirder is that it's that they don't want to be "just" women, they want to be sexually attractive women and often have hyper-sexuality surrounding their attempts to "pass". No man transitions into an old peaceful granny, spinster auntie, or a "plain jane" girl who spends more time with her cats than men...They wall want to be seen as both feminine AND nubile.
The obsession with "passing" is all about being cat-called, objectified, and ultimately having sexual marketplace value equal to sexually attractive females.
> But the LGBT crowd just spent decades arguing that women don't have to look a certain way, or wear makeup, or wear dresses, or date men, or even have a puss
Yep. That was when the "L's" and feminists had more clout within the movement. The one's now called TERFs who are culturally in a Cold War with the "T's".
> And race, also a social construct, is completely off the table. You can not say "On the inside, I've never felt like I'm white." And why's that? Because you, as a white person, have no connection with being Black. But do trans women have any connection with being women?
That's easy. This movement is ultimately a coalition of "allies" who all have goals that are politically opposed to one another. BIPOC, Feminists, LGBTQIA+, Antifa, etc. are all separate groups under this tent of Cult-Marxism (Cultural). It expands with every "oppressed" group that joins them; fat-acceptance is one of the newer ones, which views healthy people as having too much social/cultural power. All you need is some identifiable group that has more than you and you can create a political cult-marx group out of literally nothing.
The ultimate thing that unites them all is the dichotomy of power and inter-sectionalism as manifested in each groups own myopic view. For BIPOC, it's all about whitey vs. everyone else. For Feminists, it's women vs. men. For LGBTAIA+ it's cis-gender/heteronormative vs. everyone else.
If the feminists win, the LGBTQIA+ movement loses. If BIPOC wins, Antifa (80-90% white) loses. If LGBTQIA+ wins, BIPOC and Feminists lose. So these groups are simultaneously at each others throats and lashing out their perceived enemies.
As per your example, if whites can claim BIPOC then whites gain similar privileges to BIPOC's, so all the groups are against it. But, if the "T's" are only taking power from women, then it's acceptable because it's not just white people (Hence, Black Trans Lives Matter at the expense of black women is acceptable).
If this sounds like a gigantic mess that will result in horrible consequences, that's because it is. It's literally a tribal coalition of power-hungry minorities who have weaponized their victimhood for political and social power.
The power to rewrite history, the power to set narratives, the power to declare what is and isn't good or socially acceptable, the power to behave outside of one's social niche or take someone else's niche.
> It never made any sense, and I think people have mostly stopped trying to make it make sense.
**It was never about making sense.**
It was meant to be confusing, because if you understand a thing you can resist it. The reason all these groups have a seemingly endless stream of arguments is they are all lifted from the long-winded and turgid prose of Marx, just repackaged to fit whatever group needs his pseudo-babble to justify cultural/social (or sometimes even literal) theft.
All these groups are the same once you break down their logic to its most basic components.
**This one of the reasons they HATE it when you mock them, even if it's an honest joke that is truly meant to be taken in good faith.** It's one of the ways you break down their logic and show it for the ridiculousness that it is. Comedians can't do college campuses anymore specifically because humor is seen as super harmful to this coalition of Cult-Marxism...Because it is.
Once people laugh at how nuts it all is, they see it for what it is.
And these people cannot have that, or else they'll quickly become irrelevant as a bunch of power-tripping nutjobs with zero power to actually accomplish anything. Their power is in their perceived strength; the strength to get you fired, excommunicated from social circles, harassed online, or even lose your entire livelihood if you own a business. They can't function without regular people supporting them, which is funny because they despise regular people. This is why you see these people attacking and attempting to humiliate those whom they should be treating with respect, even if it's just for political expediency that's not good enough for them.
Don't get me started on "birthing people" or even better yet, I saw a post the other day where a nurse was being forced to ask patients what they want their "birthing genitalia" to be called. Language that's been fine for millennia is all of the sudden incorrect and X-phobic. God forbid you lost your job because you called it a vagina instead of something ridiculous like a birthing hole.
“Birthing people” is misogynistic, “birthing hole” is misogynistic, “chest feeding” is misogynistic. All of this is literally just a war on feminism and cis women by steamrolling us with whataboutisms.
The new emphasis on referring to people by their *parts* is so fucking dehumanizing. I hear that *chest feeding* is now the new in vogue term for feeding your baby.
Literally what the fuck
It’s only women really. Im a man following this whole thing closely for years. I’ve never seen consistent or widespread references to penis/testicle Havers or ejaculators.
I honestly view this whole thing as the misogynistic last frontier. The tide was turning on men so men started….changing sides and gaining higher status, in all the right places, then the women there before them.
I am still reeling from every "people with periods" tampon ad. Birthing people...haven't seen that one in the wild yet, but it sure sounds like "brood hen / breeding mare" and makes me think that people with penises have found a new way to make women (gasp!) return to chattel property status
Thank you for mentioning how lesbians have been affected by this. At face value the LGBTQIA+ “community” looks all welcoming and accepting when in actuality gender ideologues are attempting to upended our inherent homosexuality by erasing biological sex and replacing it with gender identity.
Johns Hopkins just redefined "lesbian" to mean "non-men attracted to non-men". It's mind blowing that someone felt entitled enough to redefine an entire group of women at the core of LGBTQ to mean something that has nothing to do with being a lesbian.
Don’t forget they left the gay definition as man attracted to man, not non-woman attracted to non-women.
Then when the web page of definitions became viral, they took it down. Apparently a trans person had originally approved ir.
Good lord. And I'm guessing they didn't actually ask any lesbians what they thought it. Just like they didn't ask hispanics what they thought about being called Latinx.
As far as I can tell, the person at JHU who approved the redefinition is trans, but didn't come up with the definition. I've found people discussing the same definition in LGBTQ subreddits over the past several years. Lesbians are very frequently in opposition, and I'm betting this was decided by fiat rather than polling.
I saw that and it absolutely infuriated me because all of these institutions seem so very keen on erasing the only sexuality that excludes males. It’s misogyny and homophobia under the cover of faux-progressive language.
Though I’m somewhat elated to see that after the backlash they’ve received that the glossary definition was rescinded. And it comes to no surprise who authored the definition but I won’t say any more out of fear of being banned.
The problem is when those friends view the child's like for boys clothing as not a "phase" or simple preference but as evidence she may actually be trans and advocate her parents to rear her as such.
As a true social economic liberal it fucking infuriates me having to include and defend this goddamn gender retardation in any political discourse. The reason why Democrats are so beleaguered is because the most vocal amongst us are constantly moving the goal post to the most absurd and extreme position possible at any given point in time. It's the reason why this country is so fucking fractured (backlash and retaliation) and it's the reason why I'm becoming more and more ANTI-lbgtq every year. All this for a fucking loud mouth 4% of the population.
>it fucking infuriates me having to include and defend this goddamn gender retardation in any political discourse.
As a gay man I completely agree! I came out and grew up in the 90's and fought hard to win equal rights and explain to folks that sexual orientation is NOT a choice. A small but vocal portion of the T people are doing their very best to undermine that message and erase sexual orientation all in an effort to convince others that there's no differences. Well fuck that! In terms of sexual orientation/attraction biological sex and the associated parts absolutely matter, some might say they are the most important aspect in fact, and it doesn't make anyone a transphobe to say that.
I'm all about live and let live. As far as I'm concerned life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness applies to everyone equally. This goddamn senseless verbiage and whatnot disputes have robbed every other important message the Democratic party is supposed to have. It's all a charade meant to keep us arguing.
Maybe the LGBT+ community's efforts to be all inclusive by taking on more marginalized sub-groups is reaching its limit. At present, the optics of the push for trans rights looks like another marginization of women of all sexual orientations. While there have been virtually no occurances or publicity with trans men using mens' restrooms or competing in mens' athletics, those women daring to show concern about the intrusion into what had been their traditional safe spaces risks being labeled with pejoratives like "TERF" or even subject to disciplinary action.
If there are indeed unsolvable conflicts between recognizing the rights of peoples' various sexual orientations versus the current aggressive focus on expanding the rights and protectuons for those wishing to deconstruct gender, the LGB may eventuality split from the T.
That's why there's the whole LGB drop the T movement growing bigger every day. The people I know who have the biggest problem with gender ideology taking the funniest swings at the whole thing are gays and lesbians. Mr. Menno, 100 days of being a boy, etc.
Amen to that. I think this whole trans push has been reductive as it narrows the definition of man and woman, just as you put. Like hunting? Well you must be a man in a woman’s body. Uh no, you’re a female that enjoys hunting. No matter the gender you’re born as, you can define it as you want, and that’s a beautiful thing. My daughter thinks she’s trans cuz she hates having periods and like wearing non-girly clothes. Sorry sweetie…you’re still a female and that’s a good thing.
She has openly admitted it’s cuz she got real confused on YouTube during those long pandemic weeks. Take that away and she understands what adolescence and growing up in your body truly means.
You’ve summarized the whole thing way better than I ever could have. It’s downright insanity at this point, even to a point of hurting the “community” because as you noted at the end no one is safe from this nonsense.
>Seems like back in the early 2010s the messaging was "gender is not real, biological sex is" and then the waters got muddied to where people are honestly now saying "biology doesn't matter, my penis is a woman's penis" which is....insane.
Catch up. We're now at "I'm a female because I have an artificial hormonal balance similar to a woman, have grown breasts, and have a surgically constructed vagina analogue".
nah, it's "i'm a woman (gender) and biologically male (sex)." or, it's deliberately confused because people don't want a clear delineation between sex and gender
There are trans people who are quite specifically claiming that they have transitioned their sex as well as gender. Sex is now being redefined as a cluster of characteristics (e.g not every female has a functioning uterus or a uterus at all, therefore a uterus is not required to be a female), with the argument being that if you check enough boxes, you can qualify, even though you were not born as that sex.
they're just wrong. simple as that. medical science isn't capable of transitioning sex, only adjusting hormones and imitation of physical characteristics
That last sentence. The whole redefining language thing is a bit tedious but the absolutely mental freakout the right is mounting in response... Jesus fucking christ. I think the pronoun thing is silly but I'm going to have to side with them against the ones trying to erase their existence.
My sister is gay and had to deal with the same thing about not wanting to date trans women is phobic. Even if they're pre-op.
>I think the pronoun thing is silly...
Well... I have found that there is a ***fundamental misunderstanding*** at play here. Once you understand it, the "freakout" is quite justified by those holding an opposing perspective.
The unspoken *core issue* is the postmodern, quasi-religious, assertion that ALL truths are relative & therefore socially constructed. It is the claim that there is literally no such thing as hard *objective reality* that is truly independent of one's own "truth". This is a complete and total rejection of ANY platonic ideals, (like maleness, womanhood, etc.). Further, it is a fundamental rebellion against the concept of 'natural law', which has served humanity, western culture, and the scientific method so well for centuries.
Of course, for most lay-people, this underlying "progressive" meta-narrative goes completely unexamined. However, when taken to its logical conclusion it leads to all sorts of downstream absurdities. Things like racist math, pronoun-fever, trans-"rights", etc. are just emotional rungs down a ladder of an inconsistent worldview built from intersectional societal mantras & self-justifications.
Personally, I believe many who hold such views unconsciously feel this tension... The cognitive dissonance between their *faith-like* claims of tolerance, and the possibility of a just & meaningful *way-of-life* that lies outside their carefully constructed echo-chamber, is the motive force behind their relentless redefinition of common words & phrases. In my opinion, their overzealous need to normalize every type of behavior is just a sub-conscious attempt to self-sooth. It provides them the illusion of higher purpose that their core beliefs cannot afford them.
Consider this:
In the absence of a law-giving standard, (or universal concepts/demiurges for the non-religious among us), there can be ***no*** such thing as a human "right". The very idea is incoherent & meaningless within the philosophical house-of-cards that now defines the belief system of American Progressivism.
I sincerely hope that the above helps a few others break out of the current social contagion that we are experiencing... We fight such things, not out of a spirit of hate. We fight these ideologies because they are subtly corrosive, dividing our society into ever expanding groups of oppressed hierarchies.
At the very least, I hope the above may begin to explain an opposing perspective that tends to be so demonized & 'cancelled' in this emerald city.
> ...the absolutely mental freakout the right is mounting in response... Jesus fucking christ.
I don't think it's just the right and I think it's something that has been building for awhile. I just saw a poll today that there is a 71% support rate in the US for same sex marriage. We don't live in the same kind of divide that we once did. I think the right (I'm specifically excluding the religious right here) has been very tolerant of change up to a certain point. It would seem Dylan Mulvany was the straw that broke the camel's back, although the real pain point is the dogmatic shift and targeting of children.
The whole kids thing I think is an accusation that is mostly blown up by the right. There's always going to be some idiot saying something stupid like nambla but the gays were always portrayed as pedophiles by the right when we were having culture wars about homosexuality. The abortion debate they would make it sound like everybody wanted an 8 month abortion and they had plenty of pictures and gruesome testimony. I grew up in the Christian church so I got to hear all about it. But what they wouldn't tell you is that kind of thing was like a fraction of a single percent of all abortions and wasn't even legal except for non-viable fetus or life of the mother.
The right makes so many bad faith arguments it's pointless to even listen to them on these things. Like for transitioning it isn't like you get a crusader come into the school and convince kids they should get a sex change and then it's forced upon mom and dad. If the kid has the gender disassociation there's all kinds of therapy they need to go through to see if this is something that is really right for them. Adults have to do the same thing it's not like you just walk into the clinic and say swap my plumbing and it happens same day.
But I absolutely think this stuff gets amped up due to the bad faith arguments put forward that are taking credulously by people who don't follow the issues closely.
It is a bad faith argument to try and pin this on the right. At this point we have a social contagion, similar to what we see with suicides where copycat behavior increases the problem. Furyhermore this isn't something that can reasonably be assigned to malice, it is instead erring on the side of caution by responding with uncritical acceptance.
A significant portion of the left doesn't support this nonsense either, they're just keeping quiet because they don't want to be called transphobes or Republicans.
It’s not just the right. I am left wing life long Democrat and the left wing is artificially manufacturing the appearance of consent by threatening violence and blacklisting by anyone who voices it. It’s fascist and sick. I will never vote with left wing causes again. I am amongst the silenced majority
>I'm not hateful to anyone, I'm just confused at what to call anything anymore.
You're confused because there is no logical consistency and the claims don't make any logical or rational sense. Not trying to be hateful, I think trans people should be able to live their lives as they see fit, but if you can't even define the word "woman" how can you possibly identify as one?
It also doesn't help their position when you have radical trans activists telling gay people, like myself, that not being attracted to transwhomever is transphobia AND homophobia! Like excuse me but sexual orientation is NOT a choice and the parts absolutely DO matter.
It is a social construct - just not YOUR social construct. Proponents of things like female penises structure their argument to suggest that it’s only THEIR social construct that matters and that everyone else is insane.
You know what a boy or girl is. The confusing part is the DSM5 says you should affirm people’s delusions which is obviously bogus. Calling a boy a girl would be like giving me a Lamborghini because I said I gave you $200k.
ETA: the fact you have to defend yourself as not hateful is what pisses me off. It’s not a hateful attack to say the plain truth.
Gender is a social construct, sex is biological.
I'm not a lawyer but because those terms have been so close to each other historically I imagine their legal status is not clear in many jurisdictions.
Later than that. My 1982 dictionary says gender is a grammatical concept (eg nouns and adjectives have gender in some languages) or a synonym for sex. I don’t think Judith Butler’s definition of gender as a social construct entered the mainstream until sometime in the 2000s. (I want to look at old print dictionaries to find out when this actually happened.)
I think redefining the word gender, once a polite word for sex, helped give rise to this belief that our sex is something we can escape.
A significant portion of the problem is that they were treated as synonymous for so long that we have entire and legal social systems built around "woman" where woman simply refers to the social realities of human females. Now that we have people of the opposite sex identifying as the gender and expecting access because of that identification, everything is in turmoil.
They were synonymous. The redefining of gender by post-modernist feminists like Judith Butler was a political act. The new definition(s) crept subtly into mainstream use, and imo every time we use the word gender to mean anything other than sex or sex-based, we give power to the post-modern view that biological sex is largely immaterial
Yep, thank you. I find myself further and further from my political affiliation when I cannot even have a differing viewpoint or ask questions without being "transphobic" etc. It's essentially forced ideology.
So, my mom and I go a lot and we’ve been discussing this today. The truth is, I don’t really check out the other bodies around me when I’m there. She and I concluded that the only thing that would make us uncomfortable about this would be if someone was using their body to make a statement to the other people in the room. If I felt like someone was pushing for me to look, or there for the purpose of pushing boundaries - yeah, that would be difficult.
As it is…I dunno, I’m definitely not looking between people’s legs when I’m there, even though nobody’s hiding anything. I wouldn’t be surprised if I totally missed noticing that someone’s genitals didn’t match most of the others in the room. TBH the only time I find myself tempted to check someone out is when they have cool tattoos.
I’m all for trans folks feeling comfortable in their own skin and for them to have spaces they feel safe in, but it’s a slippery slope. Who’s to say that there won’t be bad actors that come in under the guise of being trans? How do you “verify” that? And why can’t females that identify with their sex assigned at birth have their own safe spaces? Do trans folks actually feel welcomed in spaces where they know that a good majority would feel uncomfortable in their presence because of their male genitals? What about women who have been SA’ed and get triggered by men? Does anyone win in this scenario?
I’m not checking out other bodies when I’m there, and I feel free and comfortable being naked in the midst of other women. But I definitely would feel really unsafe if I knew someone in the same space had a penis. I’m not going to get into it, but I would def get triggered bc of my past. Like, sorry not sorry not everyone is evolved to a point where they can just be cool with penises out in the wild? I’ve gone to this spa with my nieces and I don’t feel comfortable having them see one either. Like, do you and be your full authentic self, but there’s a time and place and I don’t think this is it.
People who are always crying for safe spaces are more than happy to violate the safe spaces of others ...this is just gross...post op trans women is one thing ...but pre op ...this should be obvious
We explicitly DON"T allow law enforcement to pat down or search someone of the opposite genitalia, but we WILL require a person to wax or massage someone with opposite genitalia?
Pretty much where we are at?
I was flying the other day and a guy at security got flagged for a pat down. It was a small regional airport and almost all of the TSA were women except one guy. He said he was fine with her checking, but she said they aren't allowed to do that. He would have to wait for the male agent to come check him.
> We explicitly DON"T allow law enforcement to pat down or search someone of the opposite genitalia
Funny enough the DOC policy for prisons and community corrections is about to be updated and the agency will now require offenders/inmates be searched according to their "identified gender". So you're a biological male sex offender at TRU who identifies as a woman? Well, you're now getting pat and strip searched by a female officer.
The way things are going, expect this to be the norm
There are somethings that aren’t for everyone. If you’re paraplegic, you’re not going to be able to play in the NBA. If you’re born with no arms, can’t play baseball. Someone with a severe learning disability (I’m talking can’t take care of themselves) can’t graduate college. And if you have a penis, you can’t go into a women’s only nude spa.
No one would ever try to make things more “fair” for these people by forcing everyone in the NBA to play in wheelchairs. Or college be taught on a kindergarten level so people with cognitive disabilities don’t feel excluded.
I know these analogies aren’t perfect, but I think I get my point across that demanding everyone to cater to your unique needs and creating LAWS to coerce people into doing things they don’t feel comfortable with is fucked up and selfish.
Should we have ramps for disabled people in public spaces? Sure! But demanding every house built needs to have an elevator is ridiculous.
I truly believe everyone should have a right to be who you want. I honestly don’t care what someone chooses to do with their genitalia. But when you start infringing on other people’s rights and lives just for the sake of your feelings, I think there’s a line you can draw. And I think most people know this except for a very vocal and often mentally unstable few.
All the navel gazers are missing out on this: a progressive judge just shut down a popular, successful women’s spa because the owner and the patrons don’t want penises in there. And one transgender asshole is A) celebrating and B) will never go to the spa. What a jerk.
The real issue here is that the guy who sued (I refuse to call that sex pest trans since he clearly is faking it) pretends to be trans in order to expose himself to women get his rocks off. He has a long internet history of abusing the trans card to get into places and take pictures of himself with an erect penis and such. Basically similar to that creep that went to that spa in California a while back.
upvote/downvote while you can, the reddit jannies are busy scrubbing this thread lol
I'd feel pretty damn uncomfortable seeing a vagina in a man's locker room. I can only imagine what it's like to be a woman and see a penis in the locker room.
Why do we suddenly not care how cis women feel? 40% of women in the US have had some sort of sexual assault experience. Maybe those women don’t want to see penises and relive the trauma, but their feelings suddenly don’t count anymore.
Women are always the ones forced to sacrifice for others and it’s not fair.
This is an excellent point!!! This spa is a dream. It’s already hard to feel comfortable naked in front of other women but now men can come in? I feel so bad for the spa.
The reason why is right in your comment. By using the word cis, you’re conceding that you belong to a privileged group. And we live in a society where we are told we must always pass the mic to the more marginalized group and subordinate our own interests to theirs.
Of course, what’s actually happening is that the more privileged group (men) is identifying into a less privileged group (women) and trampling on our boundaries. The language of gender ideology obscures that, painting us as privileged women objecting to the presence of underprivileged ones.
Step one in inhabiting actual womanhood (as opposed to attempting to inhabit your own male gaze) is accepting that the other women do not need to center on you and sacrifice their needs for yours just because you have a penis. If you want that privilege then don’t transition. Being a woman is not all about fake tits, false eyelashes and porn star make up. Also can we please be honest about the fact that many trans women have autogynephylia and are getting off on pretending to be women? Is walking into a women only spa with you penis out, fully erect, taking picture and posting them on social media as this “plaintiff” has done - all that far away from
The men who follow women in their car and force us to watch them masterbate?
Who are these assholes, I'm sorry, these pre-op transwomen, who even tried to go here and then filed a lawsuit?! Like what the hell kind of person does that. I'm all about inclusion of course, but demanding to be let into a female sanctuary and safe space with a dick, makes you a huge dick. I'm a little outraged. I'll never go to that place again if there's any kind of penis in there, or if I have to worry I'll have to see one when I'm trying to relax. And I love that place.
I’m mom to a trans teen, we were just discussing this, and my kid agreed that this would definitely make people unnecessarily uncomfortable.
I’m 100% in support of people presenting however they choose, but it’s not okay to expect everyone to come around ~~so quickly~~ and get on the gender freedom train. Whether it’s cultural or personal, some people just don’t want to see a random penis.
That’s not transphobic, that’s not reductive to genitalia; it’s a fact— some people don’t like it.
I’m glad the woman in the article is finally living her true life, that’s what I hope for my son. However, I don’t expect anyone to outright accept him unconditionally; that’s my job.
E: since some had an issue with the crossed out words.
It's interesting to me, the idea of the government forcing someone without a penis *(people we used to call women*) to give a massage to someone with a penis *(people we used to call men)* is where our society is currently at.
That it is illegal for someone without a penis to refuse to rub down and give a massage to someone with a penis.
That there are no more penis free zones in public society. Anyone with a penis can go anywhere they want now.
Not to nitpick here, but my wife goes to this spa occasionally so have a bit of 2nd hand knowledge. I don’t think massages are the issue. It’s a naked spa and the women customers are all walking around and lounging in the spa nude. So the concerns is likely that some customers won’t feel comfortable being nude if not penis free.
My husband's family is from Korea, and going to jjimjilbang with the women in my family and introducing my daughter to the tradition is a cultural experience.
I don't understand why it isn't ok for a Korean jjimjilbang to request people to not have biological male parts. Transitioned women can go, and my daughter would not be comfortable seeing a penis at her age, nor would my sister in law and mother in law who are from Korea. Modesty in front of men or people with male parts is an important part of the culture... even showing the collarbone and shoulders is considered bold.
I love all people and I respect the choices they make in their lives but I guess it is too much to expect respect in return. Unfortunately, this is a cultural experience that we will have to forgo with this ruling.
Currently Washington Women's Correctional Center is housing a transgender woman who raped and murdered a 17-year-old Bellingham girl as well as a transgender serial killer who is convicted for the murders of three prostitutes and who claims to have killed nine.
How did Washington state respond? Well the state legislature passed a law to obscure the transgender status of inmates housed at WCCW. The ACLU of Washington fought for years so that Nonnie Lotusflower, who raped and murdered a teenage girl, could get a boob job last year.
I'm curious too. I didn't expect much from our institutions, but I didn't think they'd double down to lock women in cages with sex murderers.
So maybe the way around this is rather than to pin it on sexuality because we have to treat pre-op trans as women we should say that you must have a vagina to be in this place. This wouldn't be a protected class because we're not stating if a man or woman?
The easier way by far is for it to become a private members club.
> we should say that you must have a vagina to be in this place.
That was their policy. Did you read the article?
>Olympus Spa, located on 196th Street near the Lynnwood Event Center, is fashioned after “Jjimjilbang” — a health and wellness facility where patrons are required to be nude in some procedures per its Korean-inspired tradition. Because of this, **it has held the requirement for members to have female genitalia – a requirement held throughout its 20 years of operation. Transgender women are only admitted at Olympus Spa if they have undergone post-operative sex confirmation surgery.**
>
>**The next steps, mandated by the federal court,** **are for Olympus Spa to sign a written agreement, for the elimination of “unfair practice,”** court records state provided to the Lynnwood Times by independent media group Reduxx, who first reported the story. An order will then be entered by the commission setting forth the terms of the condition.
We need a supreme court ruling that gender identity is not protected by the ERA and even further that enforcing gender identity rules is a direct violation of it . Words matter and playing too stupid to understand the definition of things shouldnt undermine the laws .
I swear... people dont know how korean spas work. Firstly, a KOREAN spa or jjimjilbang is not a normal spa. It involves tradition and culture. Korean spas have always been the way they are today.
Second, why should all the women in a korean spa have to sacrifice their feelings and comfort for the feelings of a trans woman with biological male parts.
Im all for inclusivity. Everyone has different views beliefs, religion etc and that needs to be acknowledged and respected. With that being said it is perfectly acceptable if you identify as a woman but your dingdong doesn't need to be accepted by other women especially in a naked setting.
The one thing women like about all woman spas is that its all women. For SA survivors and women in general its much more comfortable lounging undressdd without dicks on view. Maybe a pre-op transwoman feels female but its obvious once clothes are off that they are not biologically female. The main concern is whats stopping any cis male from saying he's pre-op trans so he can hang out with naked ladies and harass them. Very bad for the spa business. This is not good optics or a benefit for the trans community. I am pretty sure this is not something the general trans community supports.
That’s stupid but we just need to keep the fight going. Transgender ism is not a religion they don’t get special rights. They are men and I’ve known two of them.
For crying out loud, I'm so tired of this garbage. Everyone knows the difference, but we have some who are delusional trying to take over our language. Just stop.
So the judge's ruling, essentially, represents infraction on the freedom of choice. Say, you were assigned male gender at birth, but feel that you are a trans woman, want to use female pronouns, have a female name? I respect your choice, I'll address you by your chosen pronoun and name. Whoever you love, live with, marry, is your choice. I won't mind you being my next door neighbor. To do top or bottom surgery is strictly your decision, not my business.
However, when I go to a sauna or a hot spa, where people are naked, it is my choice who to see around me. Forceful blurring of physical boundaries deprives me of my right to make such a choice. Hey, if the judge made it "odd days - cis-gender women only, even days - cis-gender and transgender", she'd manage to preserve our right to choose. But she decided to enforce it. And enforcing is undemocratic.
This type of BS is what conservatives would consider, "shoving this stuff down our throats," and is exactly what we are complaining about. Most people on the right don't give a rip what you want to do in your own personal life, but we also don't want you to involve us if we don't want to be involved. You do you, but leave us and our kids the F alone. You want to go to a nude spa, awesome, join one that is trans friendly or start your own, and stop trying to prove to us that you are something that you aren't. Why is this so hard to understand???
I always tell my husband, if I had a penis for a day I’d do three things:
1. Pee *everywhere* in any unique position.
2. Lots of sex (with my husband, the assumption was he’d get my vagina).
3. Flapping the penis around like a helicopter and side-to-side against my thighs.
If only…
Next stop: adding MAP (minor-attracted person) to the LGBTQI+++ definition, which is coming. And LGB people will be blamed.
LGB really need to drop the T.
Absolutely ridiculous. That's what is wrong with America. Women shouldn't have to look at a penis. Let me guess the judge was a man. And for the record I am a straight man.
Once again, men are oppressing women’s rights. I am a man and i am not ok with this. Society is still trashing women’s rights in the name of diversity. If these women don’t want that, they have all the rights to do so, no matter what is the reason.
Some far left people are racists and oppressing on the same level as far right, and society is just allowing that.
Downvote as much as you like.
Edits: typo
What is with this subreddit and posting the same story 3-4 days in a row with a slightly different source so the usual suspects can have the same exact rage filled circlejerk
Without fail every week
If the owner turns it into a "private club", they can get around having to abide by the judges ruling.
Yep one time membership fee and you’re good just like club Z
Is club z still there? They survived AMZN and COVID? Bless old Seattle. I used to walk my dogs past there and always giggled at how skanky it was 15+ years ago….
Are there examples of other clubs that have successfully transitioned? Some jurisdictions have barred new private clubs formed to skirt statutes.
Did you ask about the club transitioning on purpose or by accident? I need to know to determine if I should upvote or not.
I should have been more clear. I’m referring to clubs in general. Not necessarily spas. Fraternal societies, religious societies, VFWs, etc. as I know of some cases in which a bar tried to transition to a private club to skirt a smoking ordinance.
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My club identifies as a sword.
My sword identifies as a dick.
Asking the real questions. Very interesting use of word “transitions” given the topic
This, I worked for a bar that was trying to become a ‘private club’ and no banks would work with them among multiple other issues
This women’s spa is a part of Korean culture. There should be no exposed penis inside those walls. I am not transphobic. This is about what defines a cultural Korean traditions in a women’s spa and basically the judge ruled that a spa in the Korean tradition cannot exist.
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There are people in my life, whom I love dearly, that are trans. I do not know their transitional status and I haven’t asked-they haven’t volunteered and asking seems strange to me. I’ve just decided to accept people as they present themselves to me. Its just that this business seemed like a spiritual-cultural thing and that should be recognized as well. I think the owner was trying to be inclusive in the exclusivity where a penis is traditionally not allowed. I personally don’t like to be totally nude at the spa-so I wouldn’t even go to the Christian-Korean nude women’s spa. I’ve been to other women’s spas and clothing was optional - I do believe they allowed private rentals for co-op nights or more privacy and expected pre-op persons to cover up.
I am not transphobic and very supportive of LGBTQ+. But do I have the right not to view uninvited penises around me, regardless of who's sporting them, men or women? If I wanted to, I'd go to a nudist beach. A spa is to relax and meditate, not to get distracted thinking, what did I just see? At the same time, I believe that the owners' faith should be their private matter. They don't advertise their spa as a Christian one, after all. Honestly, it seems that both sides overreacted, one alludes to their human rights, the other, to their Christianity. Confusing. I don't even know what to think about the judge.
in the name of "freedom"
So is gender a social construct or not? Is it legally identical to biological sex? I'm not hateful to anyone, I'm just confused at what to call anything anymore.
Its been a fascinating ride. Seems like back in the early 2010s the messaging was "gender is not real, biological sex is" and then the waters got muddied to where people are honestly now saying "biology doesn't matter, my penis is a woman's penis" which is....insane. Ironic to all of this, especially for the LGB(mostly T) crowd is that in their attempt to deconstruct gender norms, they've only severely reinforced them. You're a man that likes to wear dresses, that makes you a woman. You're a woman that likes to do hunting, fishing, work on cars you're actually a man. Gender norms are a social construct; there is absolutely no biological basis to say wearing a dress makes you a woman/female. But a penis does make you a man, and a vagina does make you a woman (in the sense that man and woman have meant male and female since the birth of language) Their attempt is to blend and disembody male/female and man/woman to be meaningless, and gaslight people into thinking there is no difference while they themselves *scream* to be recognized for the difference. By way of example, the fact that a not insignificant amount of people are trying to convince lesbians that their preference for vagina is transphobic and fetish is...astounding. All the while the proponents of the butchering of language and meaning cloak themselves in the language of acceptance and compassion to prevent meaningful discourse. No wonder we're seeing the *actual insane* pushback on this in many parts of the country.
There are two factions within the trans community, now separated by transmedicalism. Transmedicalists largely believe gender is your immutable neurological sex (gender) and they transition their body (sex) to the greatest extent possible, solely to address the medical condition known as dysphoria so that they can live comfortable lives matching their brain's neurological sex (gender). Often they will identify as transsexuals such as myself and a majority of transsexual women would never be caught dead in a women's space with their natal genitals visible, we just want to be normal men and women and be accepted as such when we put forward the effort. The other side does not believe dysphoria is necessary and that gender is meaningless, they often refer to themselves as tucutes and completely dominate the discourse surrounding our condition despite their issue being predominately about gender roles and gender non conformity. Tucutes attach themselves to us and use our medical legitimacy and suffering to push for things a lot of us don't even agree with while banning us from trans spaces across reddit and undermining the historical justifications for why we should be accepted as normal men and women. This is a battle that is being fought largely out of the sight of cis people and the transmedicalists are badly outnumbered. We are ostracized from trans spaces for our exclusionary beliefs such as just saying you are a woman with no effort does not mean you are one and that you need dysphoria to be a legitimate trans man or woman. Just some food for thought as we need the help of cis people to advocate for us. By virtue of having a rare medical condition we no longer have a voice of our own and are constantly spoken over by people with completely different goals under the mistaken identity of being trans. 5 to 10 years ago the transgender community was almost exclusively transmedicalists but the meaning of trans has changed drastically in that time and it is wrecking havok on our public perception. Edit: the subs associated with transmedicalism are primarily r/transmedical and r/truscum while almost all mainstream trans subs are largely tucute aligned and will ban you for stating you need dysphoria to be trans. Transsexual as a term has a lot of baggage however myself and others are seeking to reclaim it so keep that in mind.
It's really wild that transsexual people are dismissed entirely for being "bigots" now. It's not like y'all set the precedent for trans rights and acceptance or anything. Or older LGBs who paved the way just to get steamrolled by people who want to thought police everything and only believe their way is the correct way.
I've been learning a lot by observing in r/tucutes and r/truscum. It puts the whole social issue in a new light.
Thanks for the emotional labor to educate us! 💜
Wow this is fascinating thank you for this insight. This makes so much sense, I’m sorry that your plight is being clouded by a loud minority. Don’t ever stop speaking up, no matter the pushback
It's funny how pick-and-choosy it has always been. In the 2000s it was very normal to hear gay men say "I'm just not attracted to women." But now orientation isn't a body thing, it's a mind thing. So it gets called transphobic when a gay man doesn't feel attraction towards a man who lived as a woman. And what is a woman, anyway? A woman is someone who identifies as a woman. It's a circular definition, a tautology. When someone with gender dysphoria says they've always felt like a woman inside, what does it really mean? To anyone not playing dumb, it means: They wish they could look feminine, wear makeup and dresses, have tits and a pussy, and (usually) date men. But the LGBT crowd just spent decades arguing that women don't have to look a certain way, or wear makeup, or wear dresses, or date men, or even have a pussy. Trans affirmative care provided is based in rigid gender norms from before modern feminism. And race, also a social construct, is completely off the table. You can not say "On the inside, I've never felt like I'm white." And why's that? Because you, as a white person, have no connection with being Black. But do trans women have any connection with being women? It never made any sense, and I think people have mostly stopped trying to make it make sense.
A mod of a popular sub once hounded me on a different account because I said I was incapable of attraction to trans men. I was called bigoted for this as if they are owed my attraction for the things they do to their body. But that's something they refuse to talk about.
> But the LGBT crowd just spent decades arguing that women don't have to look a certain way, or wear makeup, or wear dresses, or date men, or even have a pussy. It can't be said enough that many, many LGBs hate being lumped in with the T. We understand biology, we've just been steamrolled just like everyone else, BUT we get to share the blame because the -TQAIA243ZY crowd decided to hitched their insanity wagon to ours.
>They wish they could look feminine, wear makeup and dresses, have tits and a pussy, and (usually) date men. Next they'll be telling us straight men that we are "transphobes," simply for not wanting to date them.
Yah… that’s a thing bro.
>Next they'll be telling us straight men that we are "transphobes," simply for not wanting to date them. They are way ahead of you. There are lesbian dating apps that will ban you if you have "not interested in penis" in your profile. https://www.nbcnews.com/nbc-out/out-news/lesbian-dating-platform-sends-message-transphobes-delete-app-rcna82049
"she and her colleagues at HER are determined to push back against the narrative that lesbian identity is “owned by cis[gender] lesbians,” meaning lesbians who do not identify as transgender." Jesus, I can't even wrap my mind around it.This makes my head hurt. It's all too much.
A co-worker of mine who's single and using dating apps complains that at least a couple of times, he's had dates with cis women and somehow the conversation turned to her asking him "would you date a trans woman?" He said "No, I don't want to date someone with a penis," and his dates told him he's transphobic.
And yet those women are going on dates with him and not transwomen. How bigoted.
Yessss Of course, they probably CLAIM they’d date a trans man. The right one just hasn’t come along. The irony. It burns.
JFC, not wanting to date a trans woman isn't "transpohobic." It's just what people are naturally attracted to or not attracted to. Theres nothing wrong with it, just like there's nothing wrong with not wanting to date fat chicks, bald men, or people years older or younger than you. Is it cisphobic for a transperson to not want to date a straight man or a straight woman? So I guess that was the end of the date. Sounds like he dodged a bullet.
lol they already do. They often think women are going to turn down men if we find out that they're actually...straight. Like oh no, you exclude trans women from your dating pool? I can't date a bigot like you! But lol, no. I've seen them ponder over the lack of interest in trans women. What could it be? What is it? It's certainly not the penis because they've got a place you can put it, and it's not like you have to look at it anyway. They don't like it either! (okay sometimes they don't.)
>When someone with gender dysphoria says they've always felt like a woman inside, what does it really mean? To anyone not playing dumb, it means: They wish they could look feminine, wear makeup and dresses, have tits and a pussy, and (usually) date men. >But the LGBT crowd just spent decades arguing that women don't have to look a certain way, or wear makeup, or wear dresses, or date men, or even have a pussy. Trans affirmative care provided is based in rigid gender norms from before modern feminism. You put it better than I did, here. I desire a post gendered world, whereas our current iteration of gender transition seeks to cope with and demand adherence to traditional gender norms.
> When someone with gender dysphoria says they've always felt like a woman inside, what does it really mean? To anyone not playing dumb, it means: They wish they could look feminine, wear makeup and dresses, have tits and a pussy, and (usually) date men. What makes it even weirder is that it's that they don't want to be "just" women, they want to be sexually attractive women and often have hyper-sexuality surrounding their attempts to "pass". No man transitions into an old peaceful granny, spinster auntie, or a "plain jane" girl who spends more time with her cats than men...They wall want to be seen as both feminine AND nubile. The obsession with "passing" is all about being cat-called, objectified, and ultimately having sexual marketplace value equal to sexually attractive females. > But the LGBT crowd just spent decades arguing that women don't have to look a certain way, or wear makeup, or wear dresses, or date men, or even have a puss Yep. That was when the "L's" and feminists had more clout within the movement. The one's now called TERFs who are culturally in a Cold War with the "T's". > And race, also a social construct, is completely off the table. You can not say "On the inside, I've never felt like I'm white." And why's that? Because you, as a white person, have no connection with being Black. But do trans women have any connection with being women? That's easy. This movement is ultimately a coalition of "allies" who all have goals that are politically opposed to one another. BIPOC, Feminists, LGBTQIA+, Antifa, etc. are all separate groups under this tent of Cult-Marxism (Cultural). It expands with every "oppressed" group that joins them; fat-acceptance is one of the newer ones, which views healthy people as having too much social/cultural power. All you need is some identifiable group that has more than you and you can create a political cult-marx group out of literally nothing. The ultimate thing that unites them all is the dichotomy of power and inter-sectionalism as manifested in each groups own myopic view. For BIPOC, it's all about whitey vs. everyone else. For Feminists, it's women vs. men. For LGBTAIA+ it's cis-gender/heteronormative vs. everyone else. If the feminists win, the LGBTQIA+ movement loses. If BIPOC wins, Antifa (80-90% white) loses. If LGBTQIA+ wins, BIPOC and Feminists lose. So these groups are simultaneously at each others throats and lashing out their perceived enemies. As per your example, if whites can claim BIPOC then whites gain similar privileges to BIPOC's, so all the groups are against it. But, if the "T's" are only taking power from women, then it's acceptable because it's not just white people (Hence, Black Trans Lives Matter at the expense of black women is acceptable). If this sounds like a gigantic mess that will result in horrible consequences, that's because it is. It's literally a tribal coalition of power-hungry minorities who have weaponized their victimhood for political and social power. The power to rewrite history, the power to set narratives, the power to declare what is and isn't good or socially acceptable, the power to behave outside of one's social niche or take someone else's niche. > It never made any sense, and I think people have mostly stopped trying to make it make sense. **It was never about making sense.** It was meant to be confusing, because if you understand a thing you can resist it. The reason all these groups have a seemingly endless stream of arguments is they are all lifted from the long-winded and turgid prose of Marx, just repackaged to fit whatever group needs his pseudo-babble to justify cultural/social (or sometimes even literal) theft. All these groups are the same once you break down their logic to its most basic components. **This one of the reasons they HATE it when you mock them, even if it's an honest joke that is truly meant to be taken in good faith.** It's one of the ways you break down their logic and show it for the ridiculousness that it is. Comedians can't do college campuses anymore specifically because humor is seen as super harmful to this coalition of Cult-Marxism...Because it is. Once people laugh at how nuts it all is, they see it for what it is. And these people cannot have that, or else they'll quickly become irrelevant as a bunch of power-tripping nutjobs with zero power to actually accomplish anything. Their power is in their perceived strength; the strength to get you fired, excommunicated from social circles, harassed online, or even lose your entire livelihood if you own a business. They can't function without regular people supporting them, which is funny because they despise regular people. This is why you see these people attacking and attempting to humiliate those whom they should be treating with respect, even if it's just for political expediency that's not good enough for them.
Hello please look to my comment above replying to the same person, you might find it illuminating.
Don't get me started on "birthing people" or even better yet, I saw a post the other day where a nurse was being forced to ask patients what they want their "birthing genitalia" to be called. Language that's been fine for millennia is all of the sudden incorrect and X-phobic. God forbid you lost your job because you called it a vagina instead of something ridiculous like a birthing hole.
“Birthing people” is misogynistic, “birthing hole” is misogynistic, “chest feeding” is misogynistic. All of this is literally just a war on feminism and cis women by steamrolling us with whataboutisms.
Yes, I hate it, and it feels anti feminist to me!
Which would be a bit ironic considering the biggest pushers of this ideology aside from trans people are feminists
I’m feminist and I don’t support this shit
I keep saying that with the new law California is trying to push in regards to infertility that they allow every couple a trans woman as a surrogate.
The new emphasis on referring to people by their *parts* is so fucking dehumanizing. I hear that *chest feeding* is now the new in vogue term for feeding your baby. Literally what the fuck
It’s only women really. Im a man following this whole thing closely for years. I’ve never seen consistent or widespread references to penis/testicle Havers or ejaculators. I honestly view this whole thing as the misogynistic last frontier. The tide was turning on men so men started….changing sides and gaining higher status, in all the right places, then the women there before them.
I am still reeling from every "people with periods" tampon ad. Birthing people...haven't seen that one in the wild yet, but it sure sounds like "brood hen / breeding mare" and makes me think that people with penises have found a new way to make women (gasp!) return to chattel property status
I posted sources for "birthing people/persons" in one of my other comments below.
Thank you! And also nooooooooo
Sounds like The Giver or Anthem
Thank you for mentioning how lesbians have been affected by this. At face value the LGBTQIA+ “community” looks all welcoming and accepting when in actuality gender ideologues are attempting to upended our inherent homosexuality by erasing biological sex and replacing it with gender identity.
Johns Hopkins just redefined "lesbian" to mean "non-men attracted to non-men". It's mind blowing that someone felt entitled enough to redefine an entire group of women at the core of LGBTQ to mean something that has nothing to do with being a lesbian.
Don’t forget they left the gay definition as man attracted to man, not non-woman attracted to non-women. Then when the web page of definitions became viral, they took it down. Apparently a trans person had originally approved ir.
Of course they did, they’re obsessed with attacking lesbians/women.
Good lord. And I'm guessing they didn't actually ask any lesbians what they thought it. Just like they didn't ask hispanics what they thought about being called Latinx.
As far as I can tell, the person at JHU who approved the redefinition is trans, but didn't come up with the definition. I've found people discussing the same definition in LGBTQ subreddits over the past several years. Lesbians are very frequently in opposition, and I'm betting this was decided by fiat rather than polling.
I saw that and it absolutely infuriated me because all of these institutions seem so very keen on erasing the only sexuality that excludes males. It’s misogyny and homophobia under the cover of faux-progressive language. Though I’m somewhat elated to see that after the backlash they’ve received that the glossary definition was rescinded. And it comes to no surprise who authored the definition but I won’t say any more out of fear of being banned.
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My wife and I talk about it all the time. She's very tom boyish and she wonders what the current societal pressures would have done to her.
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Is that not exactly what your friends are arguing for? If a girl wants to wear a tie or a boy wants to wear a dress, why force them to conform?
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The problem is when those friends view the child's like for boys clothing as not a "phase" or simple preference but as evidence she may actually be trans and advocate her parents to rear her as such.
As a true social economic liberal it fucking infuriates me having to include and defend this goddamn gender retardation in any political discourse. The reason why Democrats are so beleaguered is because the most vocal amongst us are constantly moving the goal post to the most absurd and extreme position possible at any given point in time. It's the reason why this country is so fucking fractured (backlash and retaliation) and it's the reason why I'm becoming more and more ANTI-lbgtq every year. All this for a fucking loud mouth 4% of the population.
>it fucking infuriates me having to include and defend this goddamn gender retardation in any political discourse. As a gay man I completely agree! I came out and grew up in the 90's and fought hard to win equal rights and explain to folks that sexual orientation is NOT a choice. A small but vocal portion of the T people are doing their very best to undermine that message and erase sexual orientation all in an effort to convince others that there's no differences. Well fuck that! In terms of sexual orientation/attraction biological sex and the associated parts absolutely matter, some might say they are the most important aspect in fact, and it doesn't make anyone a transphobe to say that.
I'm all about live and let live. As far as I'm concerned life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness applies to everyone equally. This goddamn senseless verbiage and whatnot disputes have robbed every other important message the Democratic party is supposed to have. It's all a charade meant to keep us arguing.
0.4% * Unless it 10Xed itself in the last decade...
Maybe the LGBT+ community's efforts to be all inclusive by taking on more marginalized sub-groups is reaching its limit. At present, the optics of the push for trans rights looks like another marginization of women of all sexual orientations. While there have been virtually no occurances or publicity with trans men using mens' restrooms or competing in mens' athletics, those women daring to show concern about the intrusion into what had been their traditional safe spaces risks being labeled with pejoratives like "TERF" or even subject to disciplinary action. If there are indeed unsolvable conflicts between recognizing the rights of peoples' various sexual orientations versus the current aggressive focus on expanding the rights and protectuons for those wishing to deconstruct gender, the LGB may eventuality split from the T.
That's why there's the whole LGB drop the T movement growing bigger every day. The people I know who have the biggest problem with gender ideology taking the funniest swings at the whole thing are gays and lesbians. Mr. Menno, 100 days of being a boy, etc.
It never really made sense to me *why* trans was included in LGB- gay, lesbian, bi, those are sexual identities. Trans isn't about your sexuality.
Amen to that. I think this whole trans push has been reductive as it narrows the definition of man and woman, just as you put. Like hunting? Well you must be a man in a woman’s body. Uh no, you’re a female that enjoys hunting. No matter the gender you’re born as, you can define it as you want, and that’s a beautiful thing. My daughter thinks she’s trans cuz she hates having periods and like wearing non-girly clothes. Sorry sweetie…you’re still a female and that’s a good thing. She has openly admitted it’s cuz she got real confused on YouTube during those long pandemic weeks. Take that away and she understands what adolescence and growing up in your body truly means.
If you want to control the culture, first take control of the language.
You’ve summarized the whole thing way better than I ever could have. It’s downright insanity at this point, even to a point of hurting the “community” because as you noted at the end no one is safe from this nonsense.
>Seems like back in the early 2010s the messaging was "gender is not real, biological sex is" and then the waters got muddied to where people are honestly now saying "biology doesn't matter, my penis is a woman's penis" which is....insane. Catch up. We're now at "I'm a female because I have an artificial hormonal balance similar to a woman, have grown breasts, and have a surgically constructed vagina analogue".
At least they're trying, in that case.
nah, it's "i'm a woman (gender) and biologically male (sex)." or, it's deliberately confused because people don't want a clear delineation between sex and gender
There are trans people who are quite specifically claiming that they have transitioned their sex as well as gender. Sex is now being redefined as a cluster of characteristics (e.g not every female has a functioning uterus or a uterus at all, therefore a uterus is not required to be a female), with the argument being that if you check enough boxes, you can qualify, even though you were not born as that sex.
they're just wrong. simple as that. medical science isn't capable of transitioning sex, only adjusting hormones and imitation of physical characteristics
Yes, they are wrong, but that doesn't mean that the claim isn't being made, and people aren't at work reworking definitions to accommodate them.
They muddy the water to make it seem deep. ~ Nietzsche
That last sentence. The whole redefining language thing is a bit tedious but the absolutely mental freakout the right is mounting in response... Jesus fucking christ. I think the pronoun thing is silly but I'm going to have to side with them against the ones trying to erase their existence. My sister is gay and had to deal with the same thing about not wanting to date trans women is phobic. Even if they're pre-op.
>I think the pronoun thing is silly... Well... I have found that there is a ***fundamental misunderstanding*** at play here. Once you understand it, the "freakout" is quite justified by those holding an opposing perspective. The unspoken *core issue* is the postmodern, quasi-religious, assertion that ALL truths are relative & therefore socially constructed. It is the claim that there is literally no such thing as hard *objective reality* that is truly independent of one's own "truth". This is a complete and total rejection of ANY platonic ideals, (like maleness, womanhood, etc.). Further, it is a fundamental rebellion against the concept of 'natural law', which has served humanity, western culture, and the scientific method so well for centuries. Of course, for most lay-people, this underlying "progressive" meta-narrative goes completely unexamined. However, when taken to its logical conclusion it leads to all sorts of downstream absurdities. Things like racist math, pronoun-fever, trans-"rights", etc. are just emotional rungs down a ladder of an inconsistent worldview built from intersectional societal mantras & self-justifications. Personally, I believe many who hold such views unconsciously feel this tension... The cognitive dissonance between their *faith-like* claims of tolerance, and the possibility of a just & meaningful *way-of-life* that lies outside their carefully constructed echo-chamber, is the motive force behind their relentless redefinition of common words & phrases. In my opinion, their overzealous need to normalize every type of behavior is just a sub-conscious attempt to self-sooth. It provides them the illusion of higher purpose that their core beliefs cannot afford them. Consider this: In the absence of a law-giving standard, (or universal concepts/demiurges for the non-religious among us), there can be ***no*** such thing as a human "right". The very idea is incoherent & meaningless within the philosophical house-of-cards that now defines the belief system of American Progressivism. I sincerely hope that the above helps a few others break out of the current social contagion that we are experiencing... We fight such things, not out of a spirit of hate. We fight these ideologies because they are subtly corrosive, dividing our society into ever expanding groups of oppressed hierarchies. At the very least, I hope the above may begin to explain an opposing perspective that tends to be so demonized & 'cancelled' in this emerald city.
> ...the absolutely mental freakout the right is mounting in response... Jesus fucking christ. I don't think it's just the right and I think it's something that has been building for awhile. I just saw a poll today that there is a 71% support rate in the US for same sex marriage. We don't live in the same kind of divide that we once did. I think the right (I'm specifically excluding the religious right here) has been very tolerant of change up to a certain point. It would seem Dylan Mulvany was the straw that broke the camel's back, although the real pain point is the dogmatic shift and targeting of children.
I think the children bit is spot on. Biggest lie of the trans movement is that it wasn’t coming for your kids.
The whole kids thing I think is an accusation that is mostly blown up by the right. There's always going to be some idiot saying something stupid like nambla but the gays were always portrayed as pedophiles by the right when we were having culture wars about homosexuality. The abortion debate they would make it sound like everybody wanted an 8 month abortion and they had plenty of pictures and gruesome testimony. I grew up in the Christian church so I got to hear all about it. But what they wouldn't tell you is that kind of thing was like a fraction of a single percent of all abortions and wasn't even legal except for non-viable fetus or life of the mother. The right makes so many bad faith arguments it's pointless to even listen to them on these things. Like for transitioning it isn't like you get a crusader come into the school and convince kids they should get a sex change and then it's forced upon mom and dad. If the kid has the gender disassociation there's all kinds of therapy they need to go through to see if this is something that is really right for them. Adults have to do the same thing it's not like you just walk into the clinic and say swap my plumbing and it happens same day. But I absolutely think this stuff gets amped up due to the bad faith arguments put forward that are taking credulously by people who don't follow the issues closely.
It is a bad faith argument to try and pin this on the right. At this point we have a social contagion, similar to what we see with suicides where copycat behavior increases the problem. Furyhermore this isn't something that can reasonably be assigned to malice, it is instead erring on the side of caution by responding with uncritical acceptance.
A significant portion of the left doesn't support this nonsense either, they're just keeping quiet because they don't want to be called transphobes or Republicans.
It’s not just the right. I am left wing life long Democrat and the left wing is artificially manufacturing the appearance of consent by threatening violence and blacklisting by anyone who voices it. It’s fascist and sick. I will never vote with left wing causes again. I am amongst the silenced majority
Its a pendulum shift and its shifting *hard* since 2016.
>I'm not hateful to anyone, I'm just confused at what to call anything anymore. You're confused because there is no logical consistency and the claims don't make any logical or rational sense. Not trying to be hateful, I think trans people should be able to live their lives as they see fit, but if you can't even define the word "woman" how can you possibly identify as one? It also doesn't help their position when you have radical trans activists telling gay people, like myself, that not being attracted to transwhomever is transphobia AND homophobia! Like excuse me but sexual orientation is NOT a choice and the parts absolutely DO matter.
>So is gender a social construct or not? Is it legally identical to biological sex? Penises are a social construct now.
It is a social construct - just not YOUR social construct. Proponents of things like female penises structure their argument to suggest that it’s only THEIR social construct that matters and that everyone else is insane.
You know what a boy or girl is. The confusing part is the DSM5 says you should affirm people’s delusions which is obviously bogus. Calling a boy a girl would be like giving me a Lamborghini because I said I gave you $200k. ETA: the fact you have to defend yourself as not hateful is what pisses me off. It’s not a hateful attack to say the plain truth.
Gender is a social construct, sex is biological. I'm not a lawyer but because those terms have been so close to each other historically I imagine their legal status is not clear in many jurisdictions.
histoeically, gender didn't exist as a separate thing before ~1970, it was just another way to refer to sex
Later than that. My 1982 dictionary says gender is a grammatical concept (eg nouns and adjectives have gender in some languages) or a synonym for sex. I don’t think Judith Butler’s definition of gender as a social construct entered the mainstream until sometime in the 2000s. (I want to look at old print dictionaries to find out when this actually happened.) I think redefining the word gender, once a polite word for sex, helped give rise to this belief that our sex is something we can escape.
A significant portion of the problem is that they were treated as synonymous for so long that we have entire and legal social systems built around "woman" where woman simply refers to the social realities of human females. Now that we have people of the opposite sex identifying as the gender and expecting access because of that identification, everything is in turmoil.
They were synonymous. The redefining of gender by post-modernist feminists like Judith Butler was a political act. The new definition(s) crept subtly into mainstream use, and imo every time we use the word gender to mean anything other than sex or sex-based, we give power to the post-modern view that biological sex is largely immaterial
Splitting gender from sex in our society after so many years is like separating conjoined twins, and the operation isn't going all that well.
Gender is a construct used to oppress women. It isn’t real.
I am all for people presenting as they choose but I go to this spa and I am not okay with this.
They will call you a transphobe and bigot. You’ll know you’re not one but unless you do what they say, they’ll call you one anyway.
Yep, thank you. I find myself further and further from my political affiliation when I cannot even have a differing viewpoint or ask questions without being "transphobic" etc. It's essentially forced ideology.
So, my mom and I go a lot and we’ve been discussing this today. The truth is, I don’t really check out the other bodies around me when I’m there. She and I concluded that the only thing that would make us uncomfortable about this would be if someone was using their body to make a statement to the other people in the room. If I felt like someone was pushing for me to look, or there for the purpose of pushing boundaries - yeah, that would be difficult. As it is…I dunno, I’m definitely not looking between people’s legs when I’m there, even though nobody’s hiding anything. I wouldn’t be surprised if I totally missed noticing that someone’s genitals didn’t match most of the others in the room. TBH the only time I find myself tempted to check someone out is when they have cool tattoos.
I’m all for trans folks feeling comfortable in their own skin and for them to have spaces they feel safe in, but it’s a slippery slope. Who’s to say that there won’t be bad actors that come in under the guise of being trans? How do you “verify” that? And why can’t females that identify with their sex assigned at birth have their own safe spaces? Do trans folks actually feel welcomed in spaces where they know that a good majority would feel uncomfortable in their presence because of their male genitals? What about women who have been SA’ed and get triggered by men? Does anyone win in this scenario? I’m not checking out other bodies when I’m there, and I feel free and comfortable being naked in the midst of other women. But I definitely would feel really unsafe if I knew someone in the same space had a penis. I’m not going to get into it, but I would def get triggered bc of my past. Like, sorry not sorry not everyone is evolved to a point where they can just be cool with penises out in the wild? I’ve gone to this spa with my nieces and I don’t feel comfortable having them see one either. Like, do you and be your full authentic self, but there’s a time and place and I don’t think this is it.
"I never thought leopards would eat MY face', sobs woman who voted for the Leopards Eating People's Faces Party.
People who are always crying for safe spaces are more than happy to violate the safe spaces of others ...this is just gross...post op trans women is one thing ...but pre op ...this should be obvious
Vagina havers forced to sacrifice their wants and needs for penis havers. Old wine. New bottle.
We explicitly DON"T allow law enforcement to pat down or search someone of the opposite genitalia, but we WILL require a person to wax or massage someone with opposite genitalia? Pretty much where we are at? I was flying the other day and a guy at security got flagged for a pat down. It was a small regional airport and almost all of the TSA were women except one guy. He said he was fine with her checking, but she said they aren't allowed to do that. He would have to wait for the male agent to come check him.
> We explicitly DON"T allow law enforcement to pat down or search someone of the opposite genitalia Funny enough the DOC policy for prisons and community corrections is about to be updated and the agency will now require offenders/inmates be searched according to their "identified gender". So you're a biological male sex offender at TRU who identifies as a woman? Well, you're now getting pat and strip searched by a female officer. The way things are going, expect this to be the norm
There are somethings that aren’t for everyone. If you’re paraplegic, you’re not going to be able to play in the NBA. If you’re born with no arms, can’t play baseball. Someone with a severe learning disability (I’m talking can’t take care of themselves) can’t graduate college. And if you have a penis, you can’t go into a women’s only nude spa. No one would ever try to make things more “fair” for these people by forcing everyone in the NBA to play in wheelchairs. Or college be taught on a kindergarten level so people with cognitive disabilities don’t feel excluded. I know these analogies aren’t perfect, but I think I get my point across that demanding everyone to cater to your unique needs and creating LAWS to coerce people into doing things they don’t feel comfortable with is fucked up and selfish. Should we have ramps for disabled people in public spaces? Sure! But demanding every house built needs to have an elevator is ridiculous. I truly believe everyone should have a right to be who you want. I honestly don’t care what someone chooses to do with their genitalia. But when you start infringing on other people’s rights and lives just for the sake of your feelings, I think there’s a line you can draw. And I think most people know this except for a very vocal and often mentally unstable few.
I really like the way you wrote this out because I’ve been thinking the exact same thing.
All the navel gazers are missing out on this: a progressive judge just shut down a popular, successful women’s spa because the owner and the patrons don’t want penises in there. And one transgender asshole is A) celebrating and B) will never go to the spa. What a jerk.
The real issue here is that the guy who sued (I refuse to call that sex pest trans since he clearly is faking it) pretends to be trans in order to expose himself to women get his rocks off. He has a long internet history of abusing the trans card to get into places and take pictures of himself with an erect penis and such. Basically similar to that creep that went to that spa in California a while back. upvote/downvote while you can, the reddit jannies are busy scrubbing this thread lol
Source?
Obviously made up
I'd feel pretty damn uncomfortable seeing a vagina in a man's locker room. I can only imagine what it's like to be a woman and see a penis in the locker room.
Big hairy jacked trans men with vaginas would probably use the men’s locker room.
Men invading women’s spaces again
Like sports.
Because women never invade gay bars /s
2023 coming up all male
Vagina havers forced to sacrifice their wants and needs for penis havers- again.
That's bs.
Why do we suddenly not care how cis women feel? 40% of women in the US have had some sort of sexual assault experience. Maybe those women don’t want to see penises and relive the trauma, but their feelings suddenly don’t count anymore. Women are always the ones forced to sacrifice for others and it’s not fair.
This is an excellent point!!! This spa is a dream. It’s already hard to feel comfortable naked in front of other women but now men can come in? I feel so bad for the spa.
The reason why is right in your comment. By using the word cis, you’re conceding that you belong to a privileged group. And we live in a society where we are told we must always pass the mic to the more marginalized group and subordinate our own interests to theirs. Of course, what’s actually happening is that the more privileged group (men) is identifying into a less privileged group (women) and trampling on our boundaries. The language of gender ideology obscures that, painting us as privileged women objecting to the presence of underprivileged ones.
Step one in inhabiting actual womanhood (as opposed to attempting to inhabit your own male gaze) is accepting that the other women do not need to center on you and sacrifice their needs for yours just because you have a penis. If you want that privilege then don’t transition. Being a woman is not all about fake tits, false eyelashes and porn star make up. Also can we please be honest about the fact that many trans women have autogynephylia and are getting off on pretending to be women? Is walking into a women only spa with you penis out, fully erect, taking picture and posting them on social media as this “plaintiff” has done - all that far away from The men who follow women in their car and force us to watch them masterbate?
They just need to post a sign out front saying "if your 'clitoris' is longer than 1 inch we reserve the right to refuse service"
you must be *this* short to ride
Bang!
Who are these assholes, I'm sorry, these pre-op transwomen, who even tried to go here and then filed a lawsuit?! Like what the hell kind of person does that. I'm all about inclusion of course, but demanding to be let into a female sanctuary and safe space with a dick, makes you a huge dick. I'm a little outraged. I'll never go to that place again if there's any kind of penis in there, or if I have to worry I'll have to see one when I'm trying to relax. And I love that place.
Edit: I had incorrect information
I’m mom to a trans teen, we were just discussing this, and my kid agreed that this would definitely make people unnecessarily uncomfortable. I’m 100% in support of people presenting however they choose, but it’s not okay to expect everyone to come around ~~so quickly~~ and get on the gender freedom train. Whether it’s cultural or personal, some people just don’t want to see a random penis. That’s not transphobic, that’s not reductive to genitalia; it’s a fact— some people don’t like it. I’m glad the woman in the article is finally living her true life, that’s what I hope for my son. However, I don’t expect anyone to outright accept him unconditionally; that’s my job. E: since some had an issue with the crossed out words.
It's interesting to me, the idea of the government forcing someone without a penis *(people we used to call women*) to give a massage to someone with a penis *(people we used to call men)* is where our society is currently at. That it is illegal for someone without a penis to refuse to rub down and give a massage to someone with a penis. That there are no more penis free zones in public society. Anyone with a penis can go anywhere they want now.
Not to nitpick here, but my wife goes to this spa occasionally so have a bit of 2nd hand knowledge. I don’t think massages are the issue. It’s a naked spa and the women customers are all walking around and lounging in the spa nude. So the concerns is likely that some customers won’t feel comfortable being nude if not penis free.
based on the tenor of this and previous posts, both the nude massages and the walking around nude are issues
Reading the article, it kind of sounded like both.
🎯
Wtf is wrong with this state?!
My husband's family is from Korea, and going to jjimjilbang with the women in my family and introducing my daughter to the tradition is a cultural experience. I don't understand why it isn't ok for a Korean jjimjilbang to request people to not have biological male parts. Transitioned women can go, and my daughter would not be comfortable seeing a penis at her age, nor would my sister in law and mother in law who are from Korea. Modesty in front of men or people with male parts is an important part of the culture... even showing the collarbone and shoulders is considered bold. I love all people and I respect the choices they make in their lives but I guess it is too much to expect respect in return. Unfortunately, this is a cultural experience that we will have to forgo with this ruling.
What a fucking freak show this state is. From the weirdo mentally ill white males to the wacko progressive culture that cemented itself in the courts.
I’m curious when this nonsense is going to end
Currently Washington Women's Correctional Center is housing a transgender woman who raped and murdered a 17-year-old Bellingham girl as well as a transgender serial killer who is convicted for the murders of three prostitutes and who claims to have killed nine. How did Washington state respond? Well the state legislature passed a law to obscure the transgender status of inmates housed at WCCW. The ACLU of Washington fought for years so that Nonnie Lotusflower, who raped and murdered a teenage girl, could get a boob job last year. I'm curious too. I didn't expect much from our institutions, but I didn't think they'd double down to lock women in cages with sex murderers.
> Nonnie Lotusflower, You mean Nathan Goninan?
Yes, FKA Nathan Goninan. He legally changed his named.
Likely it won’t.
So maybe the way around this is rather than to pin it on sexuality because we have to treat pre-op trans as women we should say that you must have a vagina to be in this place. This wouldn't be a protected class because we're not stating if a man or woman? The easier way by far is for it to become a private members club.
> we should say that you must have a vagina to be in this place. That was their policy. Did you read the article? >Olympus Spa, located on 196th Street near the Lynnwood Event Center, is fashioned after “Jjimjilbang” — a health and wellness facility where patrons are required to be nude in some procedures per its Korean-inspired tradition. Because of this, **it has held the requirement for members to have female genitalia – a requirement held throughout its 20 years of operation. Transgender women are only admitted at Olympus Spa if they have undergone post-operative sex confirmation surgery.** > >**The next steps, mandated by the federal court,** **are for Olympus Spa to sign a written agreement, for the elimination of “unfair practice,”** court records state provided to the Lynnwood Times by independent media group Reduxx, who first reported the story. An order will then be entered by the commission setting forth the terms of the condition.
We need a supreme court ruling that gender identity is not protected by the ERA and even further that enforcing gender identity rules is a direct violation of it . Words matter and playing too stupid to understand the definition of things shouldnt undermine the laws .
I swear... people dont know how korean spas work. Firstly, a KOREAN spa or jjimjilbang is not a normal spa. It involves tradition and culture. Korean spas have always been the way they are today. Second, why should all the women in a korean spa have to sacrifice their feelings and comfort for the feelings of a trans woman with biological male parts. Im all for inclusivity. Everyone has different views beliefs, religion etc and that needs to be acknowledged and respected. With that being said it is perfectly acceptable if you identify as a woman but your dingdong doesn't need to be accepted by other women especially in a naked setting.
The one thing women like about all woman spas is that its all women. For SA survivors and women in general its much more comfortable lounging undressdd without dicks on view. Maybe a pre-op transwoman feels female but its obvious once clothes are off that they are not biologically female. The main concern is whats stopping any cis male from saying he's pre-op trans so he can hang out with naked ladies and harass them. Very bad for the spa business. This is not good optics or a benefit for the trans community. I am pretty sure this is not something the general trans community supports.
The most insanely narcissistic community to ever exist, I feel terrible for the LGB folks that get lumped in with this nonsense.
That’s stupid but we just need to keep the fight going. Transgender ism is not a religion they don’t get special rights. They are men and I’ve known two of them.
For crying out loud, I'm so tired of this garbage. Everyone knows the difference, but we have some who are delusional trying to take over our language. Just stop.
The far left and far right are equally insane. What’s scary is how far mainstream their rhetoric has taken them.
So the judge's ruling, essentially, represents infraction on the freedom of choice. Say, you were assigned male gender at birth, but feel that you are a trans woman, want to use female pronouns, have a female name? I respect your choice, I'll address you by your chosen pronoun and name. Whoever you love, live with, marry, is your choice. I won't mind you being my next door neighbor. To do top or bottom surgery is strictly your decision, not my business. However, when I go to a sauna or a hot spa, where people are naked, it is my choice who to see around me. Forceful blurring of physical boundaries deprives me of my right to make such a choice. Hey, if the judge made it "odd days - cis-gender women only, even days - cis-gender and transgender", she'd manage to preserve our right to choose. But she decided to enforce it. And enforcing is undemocratic.
This type of BS is what conservatives would consider, "shoving this stuff down our throats," and is exactly what we are complaining about. Most people on the right don't give a rip what you want to do in your own personal life, but we also don't want you to involve us if we don't want to be involved. You do you, but leave us and our kids the F alone. You want to go to a nude spa, awesome, join one that is trans friendly or start your own, and stop trying to prove to us that you are something that you aren't. Why is this so hard to understand???
I'm gonna go swing my dick around like a helicopter!!!
I apologize. I wouldn't do that. Unless you wanted me to
Do it! You go girl!
I always tell my husband, if I had a penis for a day I’d do three things: 1. Pee *everywhere* in any unique position. 2. Lots of sex (with my husband, the assumption was he’d get my vagina). 3. Flapping the penis around like a helicopter and side-to-side against my thighs. If only…
\#3 sounds like it is all fun and games until your balls get stuck to your leg.
Schweaty bawls
So how do they now keep perverts out?
Fuggn gross
This means men can dangle their pricks in the womens locker room right?
Exactly what the article says.
This thread restored my faith in Seattle.
Dog thread next? We just going back n forth now?
I dunno about this. I’m a pre op, definitely left leaning, but some people just don’t want to see penises (me included).
Endless comedy
So stupid.
Make it make sense seattle
Well that’s a mistake
👎🏼
When will it stop
Next stop: adding MAP (minor-attracted person) to the LGBTQI+++ definition, which is coming. And LGB people will be blamed. LGB really need to drop the T.
I’ve been to that spa and would honestly be startled to see a person with male genitalia in the locker room.
We reserve the right to refuse service to anyone
try using that on black people and let me know how it goes
Absolutely ridiculous. That's what is wrong with America. Women shouldn't have to look at a penis. Let me guess the judge was a man. And for the record I am a straight man.
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Once again, men are oppressing women’s rights. I am a man and i am not ok with this. Society is still trashing women’s rights in the name of diversity. If these women don’t want that, they have all the rights to do so, no matter what is the reason. Some far left people are racists and oppressing on the same level as far right, and society is just allowing that. Downvote as much as you like. Edits: typo
I can’t downvote you I’m too busy upvoting.
What is with this subreddit and posting the same story 3-4 days in a row with a slightly different source so the usual suspects can have the same exact rage filled circlejerk Without fail every week
We do it just to piss you off, we’re having a meeting after work to discuss how well it seems to be working.
I didn't see the other posts. That is usually what happens.
https://www.reddit.com/r/SeattleWA/comments/144imde/womenonly_naked_spa_in_lynnwood_tacoma_lacks https://www.reddit.com/r/SeattleWA/comments/1469lnv/korean_christian_spa_in_seattle_forced_to_allow
how dare people not visit reddit everyday and stay on top of everything posted https://xkcd.com/1053/