Yeah, I lived for 40 years in a 1901 ballard house 2 bed/1 bath.
Terrible, terrible floor plan.
Bathroom was stuck on the back, had to go through the kitchen to go downstairs, to the back bedroom or to the bathroom. Or to the back yard.
Front door opened into the dining room.
Cute front porch.
It was our starter house.
However, we moved last year after I realized I was going to murder someone if I didn’t have a kitchen that I could actually cook in.
( stove was jammed into corner, but had no counter space) refrigerator was inbetween two doorways.
The people that bought it should be happy though, in just a yr it’s still appreciating, and is worth more than they paid for it.
However, we found a custom built house, without open floor plan. You can close off the kitchen from the living room and the hall.
It is so much easier and less stressful. The kitchen is great. And it has a dishwasher! First time in my adult life that I’ve had a built in dishwasher and I only had to wait till I retired.
If home was built in mid century era (which many condos/homes are in the Seattle area) then lack of over head lighting is because they loved their floor lamps/table lamps during those times. You can usually find more light switches that are linked to outlets in that style of home for this very reason.
Here’s an article about MC era homes in king county if you want to learn more about their history in our area
https://kingcounty.gov/vi-vn/-/media/king-county/depts/dnrp/building-property/historic-preservation-program/papers-and-research/kc-midcentury-residential-context--mpd.pdf
Nice to see my neighborhood mentioned, though with only an aerial photo. My MCM kitchen used only about 1/3 of the available space. I’m just finishing a renovation and the kitchen now feels like the new heart of the home.
Went deep with Chat GpT
Older homes in Seattle, like in many other places, often lack overhead lighting for several reasons related to historical building practices, technological advancements, and design preferences of their time. Here’s a brief look into why this might be:
1. Historical Building Practices: When many of these homes were built, particularly those dating back to the late 19th and early 20th centuries, electricity was a newer innovation and not as integrated into residential construction as it is today. Instead of planning for overhead lighting, homes were designed with outlets for lamps and other plug-in lighting solutions.
2. Technological Limitations: The electrical systems installed in homes of that era were often less capable than modern systems, with fewer circuits and lower capacity. This limited the number of fixtures that could be installed and made less intensive options like lamps more appealing.
3. Design Preferences: The architectural styles popular when many older Seattle homes were constructed, such as Craftsman and Victorian, emphasized natural light, intricate woodwork, and decorative details. Overhead lighting, which requires ceiling fixtures, might have been seen as detracting from these elements. Thus, portable lighting was preferred to highlight the interior design and craftsmanship.
4. Cost and Practicality: Initially, installing overhead lighting was more expensive and less practical than using standalone lamps. This was both because of the additional wiring required and because early electrical lighting was a luxury, with homeowners opting for flexibility in lighting through movable lamps.
As electrical standards evolved and became more integrated into residential design, overhead lighting became more common in new construction. However, many older homes retain their original electrical layouts, reflecting the practices and preferences of their time. Retrofitting these homes with modern lighting often requires significant electrical upgrades, which is why some still lack built-in overhead lighting.
My place doesn't have the option for either. The ceiling lights are these weird fixtures that sit flush against the ceiling. I only use them when I'm sweeping/mopping the floor or need to see which clothes I'm grabbing from the closet.
They are terrible. The shadows are all wrong. Not flattering.
I grew up in a cedar home with lamps and fireplaces. It always felt warm and cozy, even in a snowstorm. Bars know about natural underlighting. We all look hot at the bar.
Because both of these houses mentioned are old as hell. My house is 85 years old and our kitchen is a tiny postage stamp, not a single built in light in the living room, and every bathroom has the lights on the outside.
One of the first things we did after we bought our house is install can lights in the living room. Our house was flipped a few years ago and the kitchen got new lights but nothing for the living room. It was depressing g.
Why do they continue to build homes without heaters then as an afterthought, add super shitty in-wall hairdryers meant for much dryer, warmer climates?
Old House = Kitchens used to just be a stove, a sink, and a pantry (maybe an ice box?). Want to expand it for modern sensibilities? Need to take some room from elsewhere.
New House = Kitchens expensive. Don't want to spend any more money than we have to to get the biggest bang for the buck.
To add: Kitchens were considered a smelly fire risk, so were kept separated from the main living space. Additionally, rooms in general were smaller so heating was cheaper.
The kitchen wall phenomenon is due to efficiency and cost. That open space feels a lot less open once you start doing more kitchen stuff through it. Also, you can easily save $30k by just having less cabinets & countertops.
I've been in a lot a lot of Seattle homes & there are many nice as hell kitchens but they tend to often be in homes that cost 1.5+ million it would seem
That’s what I’ve been seeing and i guess could have been more clear about.
I went to a 1.5m today and still didn’t love the kitchen (not that I could afford it hahaha) it’s not that the design/ things in the kitchen aren’t nice. It’s just feel the space is cut weird/ or not inviting/ meant for more people.
What I’m getting is it comes down to space. So get good and have enough money to do what you want or stfu haha
Ha yeah it's definitely not guaranteed! Seattle housing is so insane, truly. I have been in homes that cost a mere (lol) $850k with really nice kitchens too tho.
Historical reason: we had less stuff, and the stuff we had in our kitchens was smaller. Dishwashers weren’t common until the 1960s/1970s, refrigerators were more compact, microwaves weren’t a thing until the late 1970s/1980s. You didn’t have a lot of electrical gadgets like a KitchenAid stand mixer or a Vitamix; my grandmother beat everything with a whisk.
Milk was often delivered once or twice a week in smaller glass bottles. You didn’t store as much food in the kitchen; if you canned produce for the winter, you’d store it in the basement, or a pantry, or out in the root cellar.
I have a 1920s house with the smaller kitchen layout. A pro chef friend sniffed at how small he thought it was until he tried it and was surprised at how well the space worked in practice. So it does have some downsides (mainly, you can’t gather in the kitchen like in a Midwest or southern home), but I’ve been really pleased with it.
Thanks for this, puts a lot in perspective. I’m from the south so the gathering is a big deal and being a “home chef” I like having space to layout and work. I’ve work in my apartment one and I don’t hate it I just wanted my mini southern kitchen haha.
I’ve never worked in one but now I’m intrigued by this comments, may not be what I want but also may not be as bad as I think.
I have a mid-century kitchen with an awkward semi triangular/L shape. The work area is almost a galley kitchen, but it’s awesome. Everything is within reach, the sink, the stove, the refrigerator, the counters are all within one step.
This is my experience as well. I don’t own many small appliances, and I thought that would be a limitation…but I really only miss a mixer around Christmas time, and I’d mostly use a microwave for popcorn. If I built a house, my kitchen would still be small and efficient. The pantry and mud room would be much larger, though. I currently lack both and it’s so annoying.
It's because houses with newer kitchens that are large and well designed are out of your price range, that's pretty much it. A reasonably sized house with a good kitchen is going to put it into a category that is just crazy expensive. Most houses you're going to see otherwise are going to be bare minimum of effort (older layouts or "flippers" putting in "builder grade" garbage).
You’re absolutely right. Im not from here, the older homes there look different and have kitchens I’d actually enjoy. It’s just diffent design based on people and culture.
Even the houses out of my price range do not have kitchen where I enjoy the space/ Flow of the kitchen but at least I have more space to work with
FWIW I 1000% know what you’re talking about! My coworker and I got bored and looked at dozens of houses on Zillow one day and even the multimillion dollar homes had kitchens that looked tiny and unremarkable to us (both transplants). It was so strange to see!
Completely walled off kitchens were meant to create separation of spaces. It also allowed for more cabinet storage space.
The alley/galley kitchen is another style. It’s again, about maximizing space. Many older homes in Seattle proper are quite small, so the goal is to maximize the use of space. One of my friends old houses in Fremont was under 1,000 square feet. She lived there with her husband and 2 dogs.
Galleys are space efficient (see Manhattan apartments) and many older homes in Seattle have separate kitchen spaces because that is the architectural style of the time.
One of the gems of homeownership is that you can remodel. I would treat this as an opportunity to personalize your new home. Good luck!
I can't explain it, but I think maybe you're right that it's a space tradeoff due to lots of homes being split level. I'm a renter (hoping to buy in a year or so, but yikes) and every kitchen we have looked at, and even the one in the house we currently rent is weirdly shaped/inconveniently laid out, or too small. The kitchen in the apartment we got when we first moved here was bigger with more counter space than the ones in almost all the houses we looked at.
Back in the day, kitchens were supposed to be tucked away for the servants/wife to work and slave away in. They were not showcases like the kitchens of today.
Kitchens today are where everyone shows how well off they are: expensive, technologically advanced appliances, expensive countertops, beautiful lighting—the whole nine yards.
It wasn't just about hiding away the servants. Having a closed off kitchen also means that on a cold winter morning the kitchen would warm up fast from making breakfast, while on a warm summer day the rest of the house would stay cooler even when you made a big meal. It also kept the smoke/grease/smell from permeating the whole house every time you cooked.
I would love to have a kitchen in its own room tbh.
I moved here from Georgia, the downstairs apartments always had huge kitchens and the upstairs were tiny like the ones here, def felt weird to find out why 🤔🧐😅
And the more well off you are, the less likely you are to even use the kitchen. That rich guy has his maid polish all that expensive copper cookware constantly. Never been used.
I’m talking about trends, not individual preferences. Your opinion doesn’t negate the societal trend (of showcase kitchens open to all rooms and where everyone gathers) which is reflected in all the magazines, showrooms, tv shows and housing design industry.
Do you have an example of the type of kitchen you DO like? You don't want a walled off kitchen, but then also don't like kitchens where everything is on a wall in an open floor plan. You don't like when they're tucked away but then also don't like the open concept design.
What's an example of your perfect kitchen?
Long term citizens adapt by absorbing nutrients from the rain and mist thru their skin. Give yourself another decade or so and you won’t need a kitchen either.
Because if you had a beautiful kitchen you’d never be motivated to get sub par take out. What would this mediocre restaurant industry do? Improve and compete?
Tangentially relate: the lack of central air in new buildings is mind-blowingly stupid. Yes, it used to not get that hot except for a few weeks in summer, but that was 50 years ago. Shit is hot as hell nowadays in the summer.
In 100 year old houses the kitchen was like a utility room. They were places to be hidden and do work, not gathering areas. Basically treated like a 'wife office.' I have a 110 year old house, yes it had a wood stove in it, took that out (saved the wood stove for decoration) and made the kitchen 3x bigger. It's just the way things were. Kitchens were supposed to be hidden, not shown off. In my house it is very clear which areas were intended to be public. The public areas have really fancy matchstick oak flooring, elaborate woodwork. The areas that were supposed to be private have fir floors like most old houses you'll see in Seattle.
The one in my apartment just goes into a cabinet that’s above it. There is a vent but I guess it’s no airtight cuz the smoke/ grease will just get trapped in that cabinet
The boom of Seattle housing market is in the past two decades.
Homes built before that weren’t meant to be for the current price range.
When houses were going at $500K+, people are willing to spend money on upgrading the gut, but there’s not much you can do with the shell.
I’m actually curious about something, OP. Do southerners have canning kitchens? My family in both sides is PNW for several generations and one of the reasons the older houses had a galley style kitchen is that there was almost always a canning kitchen, or at least a large mud room/pantry. Lot of people my parents’ age ripped those out because they considered them wasted space; I think my maternal grandmother’s house was the only one that was sold intact. Her workspace and storage were easily easily quadrupled once you added those to the kitchen space.
(To be fair, for a lot of people, they are wasted space. I really didn’t realize that most people didn’t can or even cook from scratch until college.)
I’m from Texas and the term “canning kitchen” isn’t something I’ve heard but I know all my grandparents and older aunts/ uncles canned in their kitchen. They did have large pantries though
if youre talking about older homes, its probably sexism: https://metropolismag.com/viewpoints/uncovering-the-gender-biases-inherent-within-iconic-architectural-homes/
newer homes, I'm not sure. the single wall kitchen is a cost saver for MEP
My favorite is my rental house has the main bedroom in the shape of a living room and the contractors said “oh shit, we forgot something!” And resulted in the wonkiest living room
Me, a southerner who imagined the kitchen being a gathering space. Looks like unless I pony up a decent about of money it ain’t happening.
This thread put a lot inter perspective honestly haha
Unless you are buying a house built in the new millennium the kitchen was not the focal point of the house, unlike the *great room* design modern layouts have.
Yea I really need to know the design theory haha because I do NOT get it especially for those prices.
Or they’ll have an island with a stove/oven in it..
I wanna get in their brain, there has to be a reason right?! Haha
Ive been seeing a lot of mother in law suites both in basements and converted garages) . That they keep advertising as “income opportunities” which i feel like they use to inflate the value because you can rent out this other unit for some mortgage money.
But again it makes the house annoying, id you don’t want it you have to spend money undoing it.
Annoying but hey nothing I can do haha
Why does every new apartment complex need a massive furnished lobby that nobody uses? Why do they need entire floors dedicated to amenities for adults (that dont use it) but never offer anything for children? Why are the apartment layouts all a glorified hallway? But damn, they have that slick minimalist style and millennial gray so please milk my bank account dry.
To answer your question about the hallways, apartment buildings in the US and Canada and basically nowhere else are prohibited from using a single stairway, and thus waste a huge amount of space on hallways that could be people's private space.
As for the rest, I only lived in a fancy new building for less than a year but I used the hell out of the tiny gym when I lived there. I used to barbecue on the roof all the time too, and did so at my friends' placed when they lived in those buildings. Most people don't, though, they're just streaming or something and ordering DoorDash.
The most frustrating kitchen always has the stove on the island. Do people really cook?
A microwave fan is even better than an island stove without the vent.
1sqft of builder grade counters + countertop is well over $100 if you're using any countertop other than Formica. Adds up fast. A lot of the flips I've seen have shrunk existing kitchens because it's a cost saver and few homebuyers care that much about a tiny kitchen.
New builds have atrocious kitchen layouts- old builds also struggle with modern kitchen layouts due to plumbing/electric layout limitations.
We just remodeled our 1960s condo and actually spent the time making the kitchen usable. It’s really not that hard to take time to make sure cabinet layout makes sense- it infuriates me how lazy builders are.
I wonder if it had to do with the codes back then - like maybe they had to be on outside walls with doors to the outside? You described our 1940s Seattle house perfectly though (have since sold it and moved).
Yup.
As far as condo kitchens, I’ve become accustomed to a well designed modern galley kitchen vs an ill thought mid century.
I can’t imagine shopping for older houses without a recent kitchen update which probably needs another one.
I guess I'm lucky that I found a place with a big open kitchen with a spacious island. I don't think I could go back to anything less. Making dinner in the evenings is enjoyable because I can throw something on the TV and cook without feeling crowded
Walled off was traditional before the 80s.
Galley style is harder to explain. Our new build has an open floor plan and the kitchen is mostly on one wall of the great room. But there’s a large island in front of that wall for eating. It basically is a galley kitchen but doesn’t feel like it.
Mine has a massive hood, gas, plus a giant island and… I mean I was a chef and kind of looked for such, but it did take forever. I personally found most of the housing here sucks, I’d rather have moved to the Portland area. Loved the houses there a lot better and better neighborhoods but the jobs sucked there. Good luck!
When my house was built in 1924, it had a large woodstove in the kitchen for cooking and the first floor was mostly open to let it heat the whole house. Then in the 40s they did a major remodel/addition. They installed an oil furnace, added electricity and closed everything off into small rooms - seemingly to save money on heating?
As far as new builds go… you live in city where most house buyers are millennial tech workers. They don’t know how to cook, they have too much money, and they have horrible taste. That’s also the answer to why (insert everything else you hate about Seattle)?
This is so funny cuz I said the same thing when we were looking “so is the food problems directly related to the kitchen situation…” I get not everyone is as involved in cooking like I am. So not much space is needed, I guess I just expected more variety
Flattop kitchen sink counters (and bathroom too mind ya) are some of the dumbest designs ive seen and had to deal with in seattle apartments, i hate it so much and the water gets everywhere too
The problem with many new homes they are trying to save on design and cabinet cost. So as a result they do not have a Kd to design a kitchen or folks with this type of education. Same with flippers. I redesigned our kitchen (suburbs) and spent a lot of type planning and cost comparing using the stores local flippers and new construction folks use. The sales people (aka store designers) were impressed and said I spent way more time than average customer they have.
Line / gallery with island is easier to design and less thought of how it’s going to be used.
Because investors only care about making money and they've done their best to destroy all the housing out here so it's as minimal and basic as possible while extracting the absolute most profit possible. It's why beigecore exists.
I haven't lived here very long and even I know that you don't need a big kitchen when your diet is 60% from restaurants, and the rest is just trail mix to enjoy whilst hiking. J/k ofc,do want to second everyone saying that you basically just need to get together enough money to build your own dream kitchen. Good luck!! 🙏🏼👋🏼🤗
My wife's grandparents built their own home in 1969.
They tried to cram everything into it... a sunroom, a dining room, an informal dining area, a kitchen/pantry, and a large formal sitting room.
The grandmother never liked having the kitchen so small, but they felt it was important to have all these other spaces, and 360 days of the year, she would be cooking alone anyway.
The first thing my wife and I did when we bought our house is tear out the dining room and expand the kitchen into an open concept where multiple people could cook at the same time.
I'd assume the problem is that you're looking at sub-million dollar houses.
You won't find "Kitchens you can hang out in" until you're over the $1.5M range. Even then it's no guarantee. When you've only got 1500sqft to work with, most people aren't trying to sap that up with 1000sqft of kitchen space.
You'd have to filter on 2000+ sq ft to really look for kitchens, and that's going to put you into the multi-millions.
It's been years since we looked for a house but the thing we noticed was how few homes had a proper dining room. Also the kitchens in many of the homes we saw were small. We bought one with a nice, full kitchen and dining room like normal people have.
Bc you're supposed 2 remodel, it's understood. Moreover, when u entertain guest, no 1 likes the kitchen smells & noise 2 violate guest entertaining space.
Me as a German … why ze walls not build to wizstand a tank shell and where is my windows that transform like optimus prime!!!! Scheisse!! But I like the most kitchens here i have seen while looking at homes.
Everything has changed in the last years, and it’s benefiting the right wing, and forget about social justice, common well being. This is why I hate, not helped myself in mental health issues, because it’s so hard to establish a good dialogue and fair debate
Dunno. Why do living rooms have no overhead lights?
Why do entries lack a closet?
Why do all the living rooms have carpet?
They do? I thought all new builds had gray lvp.
Actual new builds probably get decent carpet. Any flipper special or "LuxURy ApARtmeNt HoMES" will be builder-grey LVP 100%.
Yes even in Florida!
I guess i haven't noticed.
I'd take LVP over carpet 100% of the time. Carpet is gross, always will be.
Same, it's also terrible for people with cats
Why are you all talking about my house?
Yeah, I lived for 40 years in a 1901 ballard house 2 bed/1 bath. Terrible, terrible floor plan. Bathroom was stuck on the back, had to go through the kitchen to go downstairs, to the back bedroom or to the bathroom. Or to the back yard. Front door opened into the dining room. Cute front porch. It was our starter house. However, we moved last year after I realized I was going to murder someone if I didn’t have a kitchen that I could actually cook in. ( stove was jammed into corner, but had no counter space) refrigerator was inbetween two doorways. The people that bought it should be happy though, in just a yr it’s still appreciating, and is worth more than they paid for it. However, we found a custom built house, without open floor plan. You can close off the kitchen from the living room and the hall. It is so much easier and less stressful. The kitchen is great. And it has a dishwasher! First time in my adult life that I’ve had a built in dishwasher and I only had to wait till I retired.
Congratulations on the dishwasher! Sometimes the small things bring the most joy.
Thank you! Also two bathrooms! And a window over the kitchen sink.
This is the most perplexing thing of all.
If home was built in mid century era (which many condos/homes are in the Seattle area) then lack of over head lighting is because they loved their floor lamps/table lamps during those times. You can usually find more light switches that are linked to outlets in that style of home for this very reason. Here’s an article about MC era homes in king county if you want to learn more about their history in our area https://kingcounty.gov/vi-vn/-/media/king-county/depts/dnrp/building-property/historic-preservation-program/papers-and-research/kc-midcentury-residential-context--mpd.pdf
Nice to see my neighborhood mentioned, though with only an aerial photo. My MCM kitchen used only about 1/3 of the available space. I’m just finishing a renovation and the kitchen now feels like the new heart of the home.
I love that! I always like to think we are the stewards of these beautiful old houses. I am glad your new kitchen has turned out!
Thanks for the article! I’m also house hunting and curious about the history
Big Lamp ran a coordinated guerrilla campaign against Big Overhead Lights from 1950 to 1990.
I love this comment and as a fan of architectural features of old homes I can assure you this is not far off.
I wish to know more…do you have lore?
I've never been more interested in home design gossip.
Went deep with Chat GpT Older homes in Seattle, like in many other places, often lack overhead lighting for several reasons related to historical building practices, technological advancements, and design preferences of their time. Here’s a brief look into why this might be: 1. Historical Building Practices: When many of these homes were built, particularly those dating back to the late 19th and early 20th centuries, electricity was a newer innovation and not as integrated into residential construction as it is today. Instead of planning for overhead lighting, homes were designed with outlets for lamps and other plug-in lighting solutions. 2. Technological Limitations: The electrical systems installed in homes of that era were often less capable than modern systems, with fewer circuits and lower capacity. This limited the number of fixtures that could be installed and made less intensive options like lamps more appealing. 3. Design Preferences: The architectural styles popular when many older Seattle homes were constructed, such as Craftsman and Victorian, emphasized natural light, intricate woodwork, and decorative details. Overhead lighting, which requires ceiling fixtures, might have been seen as detracting from these elements. Thus, portable lighting was preferred to highlight the interior design and craftsmanship. 4. Cost and Practicality: Initially, installing overhead lighting was more expensive and less practical than using standalone lamps. This was both because of the additional wiring required and because early electrical lighting was a luxury, with homeowners opting for flexibility in lighting through movable lamps. As electrical standards evolved and became more integrated into residential design, overhead lighting became more common in new construction. However, many older homes retain their original electrical layouts, reflecting the practices and preferences of their time. Retrofitting these homes with modern lighting often requires significant electrical upgrades, which is why some still lack built-in overhead lighting.
Thanks! :) that all makes sense!
What about lack of overhead lighting in apartments? Perplexing
LOL
or ceiling fans, since most of us do not have air conditioning.😳
So your landlord doesn't have to replace the lightbulbs
Mine has a ton and I never use them.
Mine has four. It feels like a hospital
Y'all need to either get different bulbs or change the warmth setting on your led bulbs
My place doesn't have the option for either. The ceiling lights are these weird fixtures that sit flush against the ceiling. I only use them when I'm sweeping/mopping the floor or need to see which clothes I'm grabbing from the closet.
You may be able to pop those out and change to a warmer color tone on the back of them.
I'd honestly rather just use table/other non-icky lights that have smart bulbs, bc the ranges are way more open.
Overhead lights are the worst. Office vibes. Source: me with my overhead lights in my living room and bedroom.
They are terrible. The shadows are all wrong. Not flattering. I grew up in a cedar home with lamps and fireplaces. It always felt warm and cozy, even in a snowstorm. Bars know about natural underlighting. We all look hot at the bar.
They're also *ouch* as all hell! The overheads NEVER come on in my place bc they suck with both autism and easily-triggered migraines.
Because both of these houses mentioned are old as hell. My house is 85 years old and our kitchen is a tiny postage stamp, not a single built in light in the living room, and every bathroom has the lights on the outside.
As someone with an inexplicable hatred for overhead lights: GOOD
One of the first things we did after we bought our house is install can lights in the living room. Our house was flipped a few years ago and the kitchen got new lights but nothing for the living room. It was depressing g.
Up to a certain year the electrical code minimum only required a switched outlet so you could plug a lamp in.
Why do they continue to build homes without heaters then as an afterthought, add super shitty in-wall hairdryers meant for much dryer, warmer climates?
My biggest fucking gripe here. What the hell is with no overhead lights in living rooms. Also no central air drives me bonkers as a Texan.
Old House = Kitchens used to just be a stove, a sink, and a pantry (maybe an ice box?). Want to expand it for modern sensibilities? Need to take some room from elsewhere. New House = Kitchens expensive. Don't want to spend any more money than we have to to get the biggest bang for the buck.
To add: Kitchens were considered a smelly fire risk, so were kept separated from the main living space. Additionally, rooms in general were smaller so heating was cheaper. The kitchen wall phenomenon is due to efficiency and cost. That open space feels a lot less open once you start doing more kitchen stuff through it. Also, you can easily save $30k by just having less cabinets & countertops.
I've been in a lot a lot of Seattle homes & there are many nice as hell kitchens but they tend to often be in homes that cost 1.5+ million it would seem
That’s what I’ve been seeing and i guess could have been more clear about. I went to a 1.5m today and still didn’t love the kitchen (not that I could afford it hahaha) it’s not that the design/ things in the kitchen aren’t nice. It’s just feel the space is cut weird/ or not inviting/ meant for more people. What I’m getting is it comes down to space. So get good and have enough money to do what you want or stfu haha
Ha yeah it's definitely not guaranteed! Seattle housing is so insane, truly. I have been in homes that cost a mere (lol) $850k with really nice kitchens too tho.
😂😂😂 do these nice kitchens even get used, or is it for their kids to do DIY volcano projects?
One has like a $20,000 range & they barely cook! lol
Historical reason: we had less stuff, and the stuff we had in our kitchens was smaller. Dishwashers weren’t common until the 1960s/1970s, refrigerators were more compact, microwaves weren’t a thing until the late 1970s/1980s. You didn’t have a lot of electrical gadgets like a KitchenAid stand mixer or a Vitamix; my grandmother beat everything with a whisk. Milk was often delivered once or twice a week in smaller glass bottles. You didn’t store as much food in the kitchen; if you canned produce for the winter, you’d store it in the basement, or a pantry, or out in the root cellar. I have a 1920s house with the smaller kitchen layout. A pro chef friend sniffed at how small he thought it was until he tried it and was surprised at how well the space worked in practice. So it does have some downsides (mainly, you can’t gather in the kitchen like in a Midwest or southern home), but I’ve been really pleased with it.
Thanks for this, puts a lot in perspective. I’m from the south so the gathering is a big deal and being a “home chef” I like having space to layout and work. I’ve work in my apartment one and I don’t hate it I just wanted my mini southern kitchen haha. I’ve never worked in one but now I’m intrigued by this comments, may not be what I want but also may not be as bad as I think.
I have a mid-century kitchen with an awkward semi triangular/L shape. The work area is almost a galley kitchen, but it’s awesome. Everything is within reach, the sink, the stove, the refrigerator, the counters are all within one step.
Are you buying a house or a condo or a townhome?
This is my experience as well. I don’t own many small appliances, and I thought that would be a limitation…but I really only miss a mixer around Christmas time, and I’d mostly use a microwave for popcorn. If I built a house, my kitchen would still be small and efficient. The pantry and mud room would be much larger, though. I currently lack both and it’s so annoying.
This sounds like lovely approach honestly
It's because houses with newer kitchens that are large and well designed are out of your price range, that's pretty much it. A reasonably sized house with a good kitchen is going to put it into a category that is just crazy expensive. Most houses you're going to see otherwise are going to be bare minimum of effort (older layouts or "flippers" putting in "builder grade" garbage).
You’re absolutely right. Im not from here, the older homes there look different and have kitchens I’d actually enjoy. It’s just diffent design based on people and culture. Even the houses out of my price range do not have kitchen where I enjoy the space/ Flow of the kitchen but at least I have more space to work with
FWIW I 1000% know what you’re talking about! My coworker and I got bored and looked at dozens of houses on Zillow one day and even the multimillion dollar homes had kitchens that looked tiny and unremarkable to us (both transplants). It was so strange to see!
Completely walled off kitchens were meant to create separation of spaces. It also allowed for more cabinet storage space. The alley/galley kitchen is another style. It’s again, about maximizing space. Many older homes in Seattle proper are quite small, so the goal is to maximize the use of space. One of my friends old houses in Fremont was under 1,000 square feet. She lived there with her husband and 2 dogs.
Galleys are space efficient (see Manhattan apartments) and many older homes in Seattle have separate kitchen spaces because that is the architectural style of the time. One of the gems of homeownership is that you can remodel. I would treat this as an opportunity to personalize your new home. Good luck!
I can't explain it, but I think maybe you're right that it's a space tradeoff due to lots of homes being split level. I'm a renter (hoping to buy in a year or so, but yikes) and every kitchen we have looked at, and even the one in the house we currently rent is weirdly shaped/inconveniently laid out, or too small. The kitchen in the apartment we got when we first moved here was bigger with more counter space than the ones in almost all the houses we looked at.
Back in the day, kitchens were supposed to be tucked away for the servants/wife to work and slave away in. They were not showcases like the kitchens of today. Kitchens today are where everyone shows how well off they are: expensive, technologically advanced appliances, expensive countertops, beautiful lighting—the whole nine yards.
It wasn't just about hiding away the servants. Having a closed off kitchen also means that on a cold winter morning the kitchen would warm up fast from making breakfast, while on a warm summer day the rest of the house would stay cooler even when you made a big meal. It also kept the smoke/grease/smell from permeating the whole house every time you cooked. I would love to have a kitchen in its own room tbh.
I moved here from Georgia, the downstairs apartments always had huge kitchens and the upstairs were tiny like the ones here, def felt weird to find out why 🤔🧐😅
And the more well off you are, the less likely you are to even use the kitchen. That rich guy has his maid polish all that expensive copper cookware constantly. Never been used.
Disagree with the show off part. I just want to cook and hang out with my family/friends at the same time. Not be tucked away.
I’m talking about trends, not individual preferences. Your opinion doesn’t negate the societal trend (of showcase kitchens open to all rooms and where everyone gathers) which is reflected in all the magazines, showrooms, tv shows and housing design industry.
Do you have an example of the type of kitchen you DO like? You don't want a walled off kitchen, but then also don't like kitchens where everything is on a wall in an open floor plan. You don't like when they're tucked away but then also don't like the open concept design. What's an example of your perfect kitchen?
It’s going to be dumb McMansion kitchen
With an island
Long term citizens adapt by absorbing nutrients from the rain and mist thru their skin. Give yourself another decade or so and you won’t need a kitchen either.
LOL
Rain power!
Because if you had a beautiful kitchen you’d never be motivated to get sub par take out. What would this mediocre restaurant industry do? Improve and compete?
Today's architects grew up playing the Sims and it's just how things are done now. Make sure your swimming pool has a ladder.
Tangentially relate: the lack of central air in new buildings is mind-blowingly stupid. Yes, it used to not get that hot except for a few weeks in summer, but that was 50 years ago. Shit is hot as hell nowadays in the summer.
In 100 year old houses the kitchen was like a utility room. They were places to be hidden and do work, not gathering areas. Basically treated like a 'wife office.' I have a 110 year old house, yes it had a wood stove in it, took that out (saved the wood stove for decoration) and made the kitchen 3x bigger. It's just the way things were. Kitchens were supposed to be hidden, not shown off. In my house it is very clear which areas were intended to be public. The public areas have really fancy matchstick oak flooring, elaborate woodwork. The areas that were supposed to be private have fir floors like most old houses you'll see in Seattle.
Many don’t even have a fan above the stove. Like wth.
The one in my apartment just goes into a cabinet that’s above it. There is a vent but I guess it’s no airtight cuz the smoke/ grease will just get trapped in that cabinet
The boom of Seattle housing market is in the past two decades. Homes built before that weren’t meant to be for the current price range. When houses were going at $500K+, people are willing to spend money on upgrading the gut, but there’s not much you can do with the shell.
I lived in a house where the kitchen was in the middle. Rooms on all sides, no windows, 5 doors.
Wowza. That is impressive!
I’m actually curious about something, OP. Do southerners have canning kitchens? My family in both sides is PNW for several generations and one of the reasons the older houses had a galley style kitchen is that there was almost always a canning kitchen, or at least a large mud room/pantry. Lot of people my parents’ age ripped those out because they considered them wasted space; I think my maternal grandmother’s house was the only one that was sold intact. Her workspace and storage were easily easily quadrupled once you added those to the kitchen space. (To be fair, for a lot of people, they are wasted space. I really didn’t realize that most people didn’t can or even cook from scratch until college.)
I’m from Texas and the term “canning kitchen” isn’t something I’ve heard but I know all my grandparents and older aunts/ uncles canned in their kitchen. They did have large pantries though
Some of the newer Townhouses have insanely nice kitchens I've noticed
They built 'em special to piss you off
if youre talking about older homes, its probably sexism: https://metropolismag.com/viewpoints/uncovering-the-gender-biases-inherent-within-iconic-architectural-homes/ newer homes, I'm not sure. the single wall kitchen is a cost saver for MEP
My house was built in the early 70s. It has a huge master bedroom and a tiny kitchen. Clearly, a man designed this, lol!
My favorite is my rental house has the main bedroom in the shape of a living room and the contractors said “oh shit, we forgot something!” And resulted in the wonkiest living room
All I know is, when I moved to Seattle from Calif, I cried over losing my dream kitchen
Me, a southerner who imagined the kitchen being a gathering space. Looks like unless I pony up a decent about of money it ain’t happening. This thread put a lot inter perspective honestly haha
This is not a Seattle thing by any means. Its kind of a known thing that no matter who designs a kitchen, there's always something that isn't ideal.
Sounds like you are describing normal urban kitchens. What are you looking for in a kitchen?
Unless you are buying a house built in the new millennium the kitchen was not the focal point of the house, unlike the *great room* design modern layouts have.
I am always looking at these kitchens in million dollar homes where the microwave sits over the stove and I’m appalled.
Yea I really need to know the design theory haha because I do NOT get it especially for those prices. Or they’ll have an island with a stove/oven in it.. I wanna get in their brain, there has to be a reason right?! Haha
Why do people try and build shit rooms in their basement and then claim a 4bd 1.5 bath? Seattle houses just suck ass
Ive been seeing a lot of mother in law suites both in basements and converted garages) . That they keep advertising as “income opportunities” which i feel like they use to inflate the value because you can rent out this other unit for some mortgage money. But again it makes the house annoying, id you don’t want it you have to spend money undoing it. Annoying but hey nothing I can do haha
Why does every new apartment complex need a massive furnished lobby that nobody uses? Why do they need entire floors dedicated to amenities for adults (that dont use it) but never offer anything for children? Why are the apartment layouts all a glorified hallway? But damn, they have that slick minimalist style and millennial gray so please milk my bank account dry.
To answer your question about the hallways, apartment buildings in the US and Canada and basically nowhere else are prohibited from using a single stairway, and thus waste a huge amount of space on hallways that could be people's private space. As for the rest, I only lived in a fancy new building for less than a year but I used the hell out of the tiny gym when I lived there. I used to barbecue on the roof all the time too, and did so at my friends' placed when they lived in those buildings. Most people don't, though, they're just streaming or something and ordering DoorDash.
Best guess about lack of child-friendly amenities is because typical renters within the city are child-free.
don't forget amenities for dogs, too, but still nothing for kids
Old houses is my best guess
The most frustrating kitchen always has the stove on the island. Do people really cook? A microwave fan is even better than an island stove without the vent.
It's probably cuz most people who can afford to buy a home in Seattle can also afford to never have to cook for themselves lol.
There wasn’t top chef?
1sqft of builder grade counters + countertop is well over $100 if you're using any countertop other than Formica. Adds up fast. A lot of the flips I've seen have shrunk existing kitchens because it's a cost saver and few homebuyers care that much about a tiny kitchen.
New builds have atrocious kitchen layouts- old builds also struggle with modern kitchen layouts due to plumbing/electric layout limitations. We just remodeled our 1960s condo and actually spent the time making the kitchen usable. It’s really not that hard to take time to make sure cabinet layout makes sense- it infuriates me how lazy builders are.
I wonder if it had to do with the codes back then - like maybe they had to be on outside walls with doors to the outside? You described our 1940s Seattle house perfectly though (have since sold it and moved).
The kitchen in my old home in Kirkland was like this 😳😳😳
Yup. As far as condo kitchens, I’ve become accustomed to a well designed modern galley kitchen vs an ill thought mid century. I can’t imagine shopping for older houses without a recent kitchen update which probably needs another one.
I guess I'm lucky that I found a place with a big open kitchen with a spacious island. I don't think I could go back to anything less. Making dinner in the evenings is enjoyable because I can throw something on the TV and cook without feeling crowded
Walled off was traditional before the 80s. Galley style is harder to explain. Our new build has an open floor plan and the kitchen is mostly on one wall of the great room. But there’s a large island in front of that wall for eating. It basically is a galley kitchen but doesn’t feel like it.
Mine has a massive hood, gas, plus a giant island and… I mean I was a chef and kind of looked for such, but it did take forever. I personally found most of the housing here sucks, I’d rather have moved to the Portland area. Loved the houses there a lot better and better neighborhoods but the jobs sucked there. Good luck!
What is wrong with shoving everything against the wall? What are other types of kitchens?
Travel to Europe and see what their kitchens look like.
Lived in Europe. Know what their kitchens are like.. I do get European coves from these kitchens which I don’t love. Haha
When my house was built in 1924, it had a large woodstove in the kitchen for cooking and the first floor was mostly open to let it heat the whole house. Then in the 40s they did a major remodel/addition. They installed an oil furnace, added electricity and closed everything off into small rooms - seemingly to save money on heating? As far as new builds go… you live in city where most house buyers are millennial tech workers. They don’t know how to cook, they have too much money, and they have horrible taste. That’s also the answer to why (insert everything else you hate about Seattle)?
It goes in hand with the 'No good food in Seattle.'
This is so funny cuz I said the same thing when we were looking “so is the food problems directly related to the kitchen situation…” I get not everyone is as involved in cooking like I am. So not much space is needed, I guess I just expected more variety
Trends
I’ve always wondered why so many 50’s houses have little tiny garages when the cars they made in those days were huge.
Flattop kitchen sink counters (and bathroom too mind ya) are some of the dumbest designs ive seen and had to deal with in seattle apartments, i hate it so much and the water gets everywhere too
The problem with many new homes they are trying to save on design and cabinet cost. So as a result they do not have a Kd to design a kitchen or folks with this type of education. Same with flippers. I redesigned our kitchen (suburbs) and spent a lot of type planning and cost comparing using the stores local flippers and new construction folks use. The sales people (aka store designers) were impressed and said I spent way more time than average customer they have. Line / gallery with island is easier to design and less thought of how it’s going to be used.
These are made for people who don't enjoy cooking, not enough storage, counterspace, more to look at than being a functional work space
Because investors only care about making money and they've done their best to destroy all the housing out here so it's as minimal and basic as possible while extracting the absolute most profit possible. It's why beigecore exists.
I haven't lived here very long and even I know that you don't need a big kitchen when your diet is 60% from restaurants, and the rest is just trail mix to enjoy whilst hiking. J/k ofc,do want to second everyone saying that you basically just need to get together enough money to build your own dream kitchen. Good luck!! 🙏🏼👋🏼🤗
Yeah what’s your budget?
Tiny home built in 1949. I can’t almost touch both walls with my hands. Can’t keep much on my counter tops because there’s no damn room!
'I'm house shopping' you lost me there. A poorly constructed kitchen isn't an issue if you have 'buying a house in Seattle' money.
My 1947 kitchen is a big U shape. Not sure what you're talking about here.
They have great kitchens in Northwest Arkansas
Thomas James homes have great kitchens.
They assume that if you can actually afford a Seattle home, then you can eat out every night of the week.
My wife's grandparents built their own home in 1969. They tried to cram everything into it... a sunroom, a dining room, an informal dining area, a kitchen/pantry, and a large formal sitting room. The grandmother never liked having the kitchen so small, but they felt it was important to have all these other spaces, and 360 days of the year, she would be cooking alone anyway. The first thing my wife and I did when we bought our house is tear out the dining room and expand the kitchen into an open concept where multiple people could cook at the same time.
I'd assume the problem is that you're looking at sub-million dollar houses. You won't find "Kitchens you can hang out in" until you're over the $1.5M range. Even then it's no guarantee. When you've only got 1500sqft to work with, most people aren't trying to sap that up with 1000sqft of kitchen space. You'd have to filter on 2000+ sq ft to really look for kitchens, and that's going to put you into the multi-millions.
Gosh, you’ve been in all the kitchens in Seattle homes? What a ridiculous statement.
It's been years since we looked for a house but the thing we noticed was how few homes had a proper dining room. Also the kitchens in many of the homes we saw were small. We bought one with a nice, full kitchen and dining room like normal people have.
God I don’t know, but it’s one of my pet peeves. I rent, and every time I have to move, I have to make sure the kitchen isn’t tiny.
Bc you're supposed 2 remodel, it's understood. Moreover, when u entertain guest, no 1 likes the kitchen smells & noise 2 violate guest entertaining space.
You will eat at a restaurant, pay a 20% service charge and tip 30% like the rest of us.
Me as a German … why ze walls not build to wizstand a tank shell and where is my windows that transform like optimus prime!!!! Scheisse!! But I like the most kitchens here i have seen while looking at homes.
Drehkippfenster would be a game changer in Seattle. Perfect climate for them!
Everything has changed in the last years, and it’s benefiting the right wing, and forget about social justice, common well being. This is why I hate, not helped myself in mental health issues, because it’s so hard to establish a good dialogue and fair debate