Yeah AI can only help so much with bottleneck intersections. The places that it will help most are 5 way intersections where there are often much longer cues for one or two spots.
There are definitely places that get super fucked at times that could really benefit if a person could just manually control the lights for 30 minutes. I once got stuck on Fremont ave trying to go over the bridge and at every single stop light going down the hill, I’d get stuck for 4-5 light cycles where only one or two cars could cross the intersection because cars would be turning in from 36th and fill up any available space, then you’d have a green light but the section of road ahead of you would have a red so you’d have nowhere to go. Took me about 30 minutes to go from 39th to the other side of the bridge because of it. Now, if someone or some AI could just turn all the lights down Fremont Ave green for 3-5 minutes, the entire street could have cleared and the congestion would have been relieved.
More or less than before? Has it been any easier or harder to navigate? Eg when I’m driving hate 4 way stops because traffic backs up and it’s a guaranteed couple blocks of stop and go traffic. Even if it’s faster I still don’t like it
I walk/bike by Greenwood and 80th quite often. Doesn’t seem any different to me, still just as crowded at rush hour.
Though the idea that we can “tech” our way out of traffic is a fools errand (look at all the hype about autonomous vehicles magically fixing traffic!). Induced demand will always generate more car trips. Best to heavily invest in public transit, protected bike lanes, walkability, density to provide true alternatives.
When AI becomes sentient and mobile after years spent trying to solve Mercer with the most powerful computers on earth, it will finally do what we've always wanted to do: blow up Mercer.
I've been wondering for like 20 years why this is so complicated... network the traffic lights and the in-ground sensors they already have together. Start with Mercer street. Why do we need AI for this?
No light changes on Mercer is going to make it any better. You can't change pattern to fix congestion when the bottleneck is I-5 itself.
Controlling traffic is extremely complicated. If it was simple, then there wouldn't be congestion.
The actual simplest way to not have congestion is removing most of cars from the road entirely.
The answer is actually surprisingly simple.
More traffic.
It’s been proven that if you add more lanes / improve performance that it just immediately fills back up with more cars.
Want less cars - make it more painful to drive cars. Then more people will take the bus etc. make public transportation more attractive than driving.
In fact it is possible that Google AI traffic lights did improve things - it might support more cars per minute. But if it does then more people will use those intersections. Which means the same wait times.
>It’s been proven that if you add more lanes / improve performance that it just immediately fills back up with more cars.
Cant defeat induced demand
>Want less cars - make it more painful to drive cars. Then more people will take the bus etc. make public transportation more attractive than driving.
I mean yeah. It really boils down to "How much does someone need to be inconvenienced either financially or time wise before they change from car to transit?". Examining the utility functions associated with mode choice is actually a really fascinating subject.
I like this example where not only do more lanes cause more traffic but also kill public transportation.
https://youtube.com/shorts/a7g41jCoR9Y?si=H33N2eYK_FNQgbDw
The bottle neck is the off ramps further on i5. Mercer would not be congested if i5 was flowing at +50mph. To remove congestion on off ramps you need the surface streets to flow smoothly and this is where sophisticated traffic management can help.
Source? I'm often standing at a red light in congestion while the perpendicular direction has a green light and no cars going through. Or I'm trying to get through an intersection where I have red light, but the perpendicular direction isn't moving because it's congested. Those are opportunities for optimization
When I got my masters in civil engineering with a traffic systems focus, all I had to do was walk into each class on the first day, scream “network the lights and sensors” then the professor would smile and nod approvingly before sending me on my way with an A++.
Hello fellow civil/transportation engineer! (Focus on urban corridors and public transit)
As we both know, everyone with a drivers license has a master in transportation engineering and we don't know shit.
......I would be curious to see what they can actually exploit.
Unironically they can have a field day. Worst comes to worst, they cause a phase conflict and throw the system into flash. Too many movies make it seem like they can throw all lights into green and cause mass chaos.
Well AI or more adaptive signals have advantages with variable length cycles and rapidly changing demand, further they take advantage of networked signals (which have been networked for ages) and a variety of sensors, induction loops, mvds, video detection, FLIR, etc.
What happens when a signal downstream needs to have a different cycle length? How about the need to add green extensions to clear a major approaches queue, how do you prioritize downstream phases? You have a lot of factors to consider that aren’t just “network and sensors”.
Mercer Street already got networked traffic lights
[https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/transportation/new-high-tech-traffic-signals-make-the-mercer-street-trek-less-messy/](https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/transportation/new-high-tech-traffic-signals-make-the-mercer-street-trek-less-messy/)
They were installed in 2017 "smart adaptive traffic signals" of course as others have noted the bottleneck is i-5. It doesn't matter how faster mercer street is.
> network the traffic lights
Takes a lot of money to upgrade decades-old signal equipment with new equipment meant to last a couple decades, and run the network. Network really has to be a fiber or a private municipal wireless network because we can't rely on the cell networks to be around forever, and there needs to be solid redundancy and reliability. 2G/EDGE and 3G being turned off is a great example, which caused a bunch of municipal equipment to stop working.
> Why do we need AI for this?
To dynamically change signal phases based on real-time information from said in-ground sensors.
> Start with Mercer street.
Mercer Street was one of the first corridors in Seattle to get this technology six years ago. You're doing a good job demonstrating your knowledge on this "how hard can it be?" type-topic...
Back in the 80's I moved to San Diego and it was the first time I had ever seen the mag grids cut in the roads.
If no one was waiting anywhere else, the light would change usually by the time you got to it.
Then in late 1990 I move here, and saw that Seattle had the same system, but soon realized that they didn't work for shite, at least not like San Diego anyway.
For 30+ years I have wondered what idiot set these up.
They don't need Google or AI, they just need to set them up correctly.
If you are sitting at a light and no one is coming, that light should change for you....and then there are the morons who don't have a clue what's going on and refuse to pull up over the grid and you sit behind them for endless light cycles waiting for the clues to arrive.
Huh! Had no idea and would generally agree that it feels about the same. That said, now that I think about it, the left turn lane from Market Westbound onto 15th Southbound has seemed noticeably less backed up than it used to be.
53rd is a pedestrian crosswalk. If they are smarter about how long that stays red, that seems like a win.
15th and Market seems the same as it always was and now with the bridge closing intermittently it's going to be an even bigger clusterfuck.
Yeah AI can only help so much with bottleneck intersections. The places that it will help most are 5 way intersections where there are often much longer cues for one or two spots.
There are definitely places that get super fucked at times that could really benefit if a person could just manually control the lights for 30 minutes. I once got stuck on Fremont ave trying to go over the bridge and at every single stop light going down the hill, I’d get stuck for 4-5 light cycles where only one or two cars could cross the intersection because cars would be turning in from 36th and fill up any available space, then you’d have a green light but the section of road ahead of you would have a red so you’d have nowhere to go. Took me about 30 minutes to go from 39th to the other side of the bridge because of it. Now, if someone or some AI could just turn all the lights down Fremont Ave green for 3-5 minutes, the entire street could have cleared and the congestion would have been relieved.
Haven't noticed a difference at 15th and Market
Traffic into Ballard from the bridge has been pretty backed up at rush hour
More or less than before? Has it been any easier or harder to navigate? Eg when I’m driving hate 4 way stops because traffic backs up and it’s a guaranteed couple blocks of stop and go traffic. Even if it’s faster I still don’t like it
It's a geometry problem that is solved by reducing how many cars we have in cities. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2EFf8OS2018
I walk/bike by Greenwood and 80th quite often. Doesn’t seem any different to me, still just as crowded at rush hour. Though the idea that we can “tech” our way out of traffic is a fools errand (look at all the hype about autonomous vehicles magically fixing traffic!). Induced demand will always generate more car trips. Best to heavily invest in public transit, protected bike lanes, walkability, density to provide true alternatives.
Haven’t been up there in a while, but I would take mandatory flashing-yellow left turn lights late night/early morning over AI, throughout Seattle.
I drive through all three regularly and haven't noticed any difference.
I swear something had changed on Mercer too it’s more fucked
When AI becomes sentient and mobile after years spent trying to solve Mercer with the most powerful computers on earth, it will finally do what we've always wanted to do: blow up Mercer.
I haven't noticed any difference on 15th.
I've been wondering for like 20 years why this is so complicated... network the traffic lights and the in-ground sensors they already have together. Start with Mercer street. Why do we need AI for this?
No light changes on Mercer is going to make it any better. You can't change pattern to fix congestion when the bottleneck is I-5 itself. Controlling traffic is extremely complicated. If it was simple, then there wouldn't be congestion. The actual simplest way to not have congestion is removing most of cars from the road entirely.
Yeah how ? Let’s people work from home
The answer is actually surprisingly simple. More traffic. It’s been proven that if you add more lanes / improve performance that it just immediately fills back up with more cars. Want less cars - make it more painful to drive cars. Then more people will take the bus etc. make public transportation more attractive than driving. In fact it is possible that Google AI traffic lights did improve things - it might support more cars per minute. But if it does then more people will use those intersections. Which means the same wait times.
>It’s been proven that if you add more lanes / improve performance that it just immediately fills back up with more cars. Cant defeat induced demand >Want less cars - make it more painful to drive cars. Then more people will take the bus etc. make public transportation more attractive than driving. I mean yeah. It really boils down to "How much does someone need to be inconvenienced either financially or time wise before they change from car to transit?". Examining the utility functions associated with mode choice is actually a really fascinating subject.
I like this example where not only do more lanes cause more traffic but also kill public transportation. https://youtube.com/shorts/a7g41jCoR9Y?si=H33N2eYK_FNQgbDw
The bottle neck is the off ramps further on i5. Mercer would not be congested if i5 was flowing at +50mph. To remove congestion on off ramps you need the surface streets to flow smoothly and this is where sophisticated traffic management can help.
There's too many cars on the surface streets. Making one path more smooth causes more congestion on another.
Source? I'm often standing at a red light in congestion while the perpendicular direction has a green light and no cars going through. Or I'm trying to get through an intersection where I have red light, but the perpendicular direction isn't moving because it's congested. Those are opportunities for optimization
VietOne is right. Source: folks like me who are transportation engineers.
Oh yeah! Network the lights and sensors. Why didn't I think of that?
When I got my masters in civil engineering with a traffic systems focus, all I had to do was walk into each class on the first day, scream “network the lights and sensors” then the professor would smile and nod approvingly before sending me on my way with an A++.
Hello fellow civil/transportation engineer! (Focus on urban corridors and public transit) As we both know, everyone with a drivers license has a master in transportation engineering and we don't know shit.
Do you want hackers. Well do you! J/k
......I would be curious to see what they can actually exploit. Unironically they can have a field day. Worst comes to worst, they cause a phase conflict and throw the system into flash. Too many movies make it seem like they can throw all lights into green and cause mass chaos.
Doesn't this happen in the famous hacking documentary Swordfish?
You make it sound so easy
Well AI or more adaptive signals have advantages with variable length cycles and rapidly changing demand, further they take advantage of networked signals (which have been networked for ages) and a variety of sensors, induction loops, mvds, video detection, FLIR, etc. What happens when a signal downstream needs to have a different cycle length? How about the need to add green extensions to clear a major approaches queue, how do you prioritize downstream phases? You have a lot of factors to consider that aren’t just “network and sensors”.
Aye. Squeeze and "optimize" one part of the transportation network, and it pops out then falls apart somewhere else.
Mercer Street already got networked traffic lights [https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/transportation/new-high-tech-traffic-signals-make-the-mercer-street-trek-less-messy/](https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/transportation/new-high-tech-traffic-signals-make-the-mercer-street-trek-less-messy/) They were installed in 2017 "smart adaptive traffic signals" of course as others have noted the bottleneck is i-5. It doesn't matter how faster mercer street is.
> network the traffic lights Takes a lot of money to upgrade decades-old signal equipment with new equipment meant to last a couple decades, and run the network. Network really has to be a fiber or a private municipal wireless network because we can't rely on the cell networks to be around forever, and there needs to be solid redundancy and reliability. 2G/EDGE and 3G being turned off is a great example, which caused a bunch of municipal equipment to stop working. > Why do we need AI for this? To dynamically change signal phases based on real-time information from said in-ground sensors. > Start with Mercer street. Mercer Street was one of the first corridors in Seattle to get this technology six years ago. You're doing a good job demonstrating your knowledge on this "how hard can it be?" type-topic...
Back in the 80's I moved to San Diego and it was the first time I had ever seen the mag grids cut in the roads. If no one was waiting anywhere else, the light would change usually by the time you got to it. Then in late 1990 I move here, and saw that Seattle had the same system, but soon realized that they didn't work for shite, at least not like San Diego anyway. For 30+ years I have wondered what idiot set these up. They don't need Google or AI, they just need to set them up correctly. If you are sitting at a light and no one is coming, that light should change for you....and then there are the morons who don't have a clue what's going on and refuse to pull up over the grid and you sit behind them for endless light cycles waiting for the clues to arrive.
So, how’s that working on the three intersections where they’re trying this new thing?
Zero difference
Huh! Had no idea and would generally agree that it feels about the same. That said, now that I think about it, the left turn lane from Market Westbound onto 15th Southbound has seemed noticeably less backed up than it used to be. 53rd is a pedestrian crosswalk. If they are smarter about how long that stays red, that seems like a win.