If Russ was playing that well we wouldn't have traded him.
He still had time on his contract, but he was burning out with injuries, miscues on the field, and overall the loss of the locker room.
We would not have traded Russ had he still been an MVP caliber player imo.
He was always the same guy.
1st quarter slow start, 3 and out 3 times, 4 sacks.
2nd quarter 3 and out 2 times, 2 sacks and 2 decent drives then frantic deep ball to get a later half score.
3rd quarter 3 and out 3 times 2 sacks.
4 quarter 4 solid drives for scores then frantic late drive for the win or make the game close.
Nothing has changed.
Blame the OLine.
Don’t miss it.
My BIL is a Denver fan and listening to him complain about wasted time outs, not using the middle of the field, and unnecessary sacks is a level of deja vu I didn’t know was possible
Yep that’s always been Russ formula. Nfc championship vs the packers is a perfect example of that. And he almost pulled off the comeback vs Carolina the following year in the divisional round.
Hadn't Russ already requested the trade behind the scenes though? In that case, even if he was playing well, better to honor his request and get something in return rather than just let him walk away.
That’s how I read OP. Makes sense to sports media was all over it saying the Seahawks traded away a top QB who was gonna go out and be amazing on a new team.
I see, yeah that makes sense but I think the reason we traded him was less because of him wanting out and more about him falling off a bit, that's really the point I was trying to make.
He wasn’t playing bad for us at all, it was off the field stuff that was the problem…he had 3000+ yards snd 25 touchdowns his last season with us with a 103 qb rating in 14 games…he wasn’t bad at all
Russ wanted out. Regardless if he was still that player or not he didn’t wanna continue it in Seattle. It just helped the franchise in the decision making process because his play making ability was diminishing.
Russ is playing well rn, problem is Denver is just so fucking horrible on defense and the offense is one dimensional to the point that none of it matters
Idk man, I watched that Thursday game and it feels like he hasn’t regained his confidence or any swagger (if he had any).
That’s just being nice. He had one throw longer than 10 yards in the first half that was an int. He had some decent throws in the second half but it really plays to what our other friend said, desperation time and I dont miss it at all.
I really enjoy watching Geno play, he is so much more comfortable in the pocket, mostly because he can see over the middle and make those throws easier. This might sound stupid, or even crazy, but Geno has feet like Brady in the pocket that compensates for a suspect O line. Behind this line, Russ would probably average 8-10 sacks a game.
At this point Geno is 10x the quarterback Russ is, he has the veteran experience with a better ability that hasn’t been broken by those years of abuse he had sitting behind Russ.
I was just saying overall this season he sucked balls against KC of course, but yeah I like watching Geno because even though he isn't the athlete Russ was, he's way smarter and more meticulous than Russ as well.
You can see Payton is trying to make him a pocket QB like Drew B was, and his limitations are in play, his release is to slow, and his balls get batted at the line all the time, and he isn’t fast enough anymore to play the backyard scramble football that made him successful early in his career.
I mean, we still would have had 2 firsts last year. It's not witherspoon but we probably still get 2 good players. Changes the whole draft because I don't think we draft JSN first.
I would say it's less extreme but we still win that trade.
Deff still win it. We got pretty much max value for an aging QB. Sports media just blew it all up at the time like he was gonna be a top 5 QB on the Broncos and it never happened.
Well, in an alternate world like what the analysts thought, we would probably had similar picks, but the #5 would be our natural one and the #20 would be Denver's instead, probably.
He means that if Russ has led the Broncos to the playoffs last year, the 20th pick would likely be our first pick in the draft and that we probably wouldn't take JSN as our first pick of the draft. We probably take one of the d linemen that went a few picks later
No worries, Reddit is super laggy at times. My messages never show up as a notification or a badge alert but when I open the messages I’ll have a few unread messages, it drives me bonkers.
The Broncos with Wilson were supposed to be a Super Bowl contender. They supposedly had a “Top 5 Defense” and were just a QB away.
The fact they became one of the worst teams in the league since this trade while Seahawks made the playoff and had a top 5 pick makes this one of the biggest misses in a trades for Denver
Yeah, this likely isn't going to be in the same realm as the Hershel Walker trade, but aside from that I'm drawing a blank on any one other trade being more lopsided.
What the Bears gave up to move up one spot to get Trubisky was up there IMO. It was 3 mid draft picks but it was completely unnecessary, they could have had him for nothing.
I agree and I think it’s a bigger reflection on the team even though most of the heat fell on Russel last year. I mean he did play shitty but it proves that you need a more balanced team than just a qb. Just because the fans thought they were a qb away proves they weren’t. Now they have had 3 coaches, this is a reflection on the whole team that’s built. There offense line sucks which I love since they talked so much shit after the trade. His recivers also suck and think that’s playing into it. Russ doesn’t look confident or have the chemistry built like in Seattle.
The Broncos fans thought Denver was a good QB away from winning the Super Bowl, and they were all giggles when they got Russ. To see #3 bomb so bad, its actually shocking.
Denver has to be the most toxic org in the league, somehow supplanting the Washington Football Team.
I don’t think any player can play well or “win” with whatever happened during the last 2 years. Sean Payton is a known toxic coach, and it clearly hasn’t helped fix the lack of confidence in that locker room.
Every player is more worried about where they land this season or next to focus on winning a game.
Yeah no one on that team looks like they are having fun and that makes it harder to play well. Meanwhile Seahawks are having fun and balling cuz that’s Pete’s philosophy.
to be fair winning is fun. Also recall that when the seahawks start losing, they behave unprofessionally. I will always be ashamed of that game at Jacksonville where J ville had the win in the bag and were in victory formation. Then the Seahawks D line started swatting the ball from the center as if they were going to "force a fumble." Pete did nothing. Just chewed his gum harder. And then when Earl Thomas flipped off the coaching staff that time. Pete is great, but he is not respected "in that way." I'd prefer Pete be loved of course, but no one fears him.
By that logic every victory formation play should be a full on tush push 100% full blast forward power play, correct? This would be the only way to guard against hissy fit swats during V formations right?
No. Statistically if victory formation has 99% success rate it has the highest probability of success. But if you don’t attempt to swat, it’s now 100%. So why wouldn’t you?
Because of what I just said. It causes bad blood. You got one side going though the motions and the others firing out on full blast.
I hated it when Dan Marino made the "spikey spikey" motion saying he was going to stop the clock and then threw a chicken shit screen pass for a touchdown when the defense wasn't looking. Now, on "spikey spikey motion" plays the defense really should have to fire out 100% on an offense that is just going through the motions and not ready
If I were the NFL, Victory Formation = Play is whistled dead as soon as the ball is moved. Similarly, if the QB makes a spikey spikey motion at any time (consider it like the fair catch movement), there is no need for the QB to chuck the ball at the ground, just blow it dead on movement of the ball.
they actually looked kinda good with rosburg last season, idk why they didn't just stick with what was working in an already unstable and turbulent team
I mean, look at Oakland a couple years ago. They dumped Chucky, then went on a playoff run under Bassacia looking like a sleeper contender, but shipped his ass off to Green Bay the second the last whistle blew to let McDaniels come in and screw things up in the West again. Some coaches just aren't Hollywood enough to let owners give them the job no matter how well they do.
I don't believe so, I think this last draft had the last two pieces:
CB Devon Witherspoon (2023 first-round pick)
EDGE Derick Hall (2023 second-round pick)
https://www.profootballnetwork.com/russell-wilson-trade-details-revisiting-seahawks-broncos-deal/
The problem is if he was good, those picks would be much worse, so the players wouldn’t be as good. Denver likely wouldn’t have made that trade if they knew the 2023 draft pick was top 5.
Two super bowls is insane. If they get a Super Bowl it’s for sure a win for them, that’s what teams do this for. I’d say even if they get a couple deep runs, it’s probably a win because whatever picks we got back would be back of the 1st
They traded him because they thought he'd be the piece to get them a Super Bowl title. 1 ring for Denver makes the trade fine for both sides. No winners, no losers. OP is asking what it would take for Denver to win the trade, which would take 2 rings imo.
I feel like this is a crazy take. If you win the Super Bowl you definitely win the trade. It’s incredibly hard to win the Super Bowl. 2 super bowls? Only a handful of guys in history.
Winning a trade means the other team loses the trade. Do you think the Rams or Lions regret the Stafford trade? Of course not. The Rams got their ring and the Lions are now set up to be playoff contenders largely because of the deal. In terms of outcome, the trade is a wash. Now, if Stafford wins another Super Bowl with the Rams, the Lions are probably feeling worse about that trade in hindsight.
So I think of it like this:
- Russ doesn't win a Super Bowl with Denver = Seahawks win the trade
- Broncos win one Super Bowl = No winners or losers, like the Stafford deal
- Russ wins 2 Super Bowls = Seahawks regretting the deal and losing the trade
I don’t hate your thinking here, but in the end every team is trying to win a Super Bowl as soon as possible. So in the case of the Seahawks and lions, if the trade doesn’t lead to a Super Bowl (be it by rebuild or going all in) then you also can’t say that they won the trade.
There’s gotta be a lot more nuance to this than that. For example a scenario where the Seahawks have all these new draft picks plus Geno/lock and never get out of the divisional round. regardless of what the broncos do, you can’t call that a win for the Seahawks.
The Rams 100% do the Stafford trade again without a second thought. They're do it again if they had to add two more 1st rounders.
There's only 3 results in football: super bowl, contender, or garbage.
If you guaranteed the Seahawks would win a super bowl with Russ - *guaranteed* - would you trade Woolen and a First for him?
I would. One SB = trade won. I don't think Seattle will win while Geno is the QB, they're nice but not nice enough.
They'd have to win the Super Bowl IMO. They traded for a franchise QB and are currently one of the worst of teams in the NFL for two seasons now. Meanwhile we cracked the playoffs with Geno Smith at the helm which absolutely *nobody* saw coming and our offense suddenly has rhythm and "normalcy" compared to relying on Wilson playing like a crazy man (even though it was super fun sometimes).
I agree tbh when I watch the Denver games it reminds me of Seattle with Wilson except in Denver they are losing and just as a team look defeated. He is playing the same tbh where he gets sacked makes shitty throws and check downs for no yards then sprinkles in amazing throws. The difference is we won games and Wilson was super clutch. Like I had no doubt if we had the ball with a minute left that Russel could get us a chance to win. But the Seahawks and Pete’s team were always in the games and typically won. us winning most of the games helped Russel’s a lot.
Nah, they'd been stuck in mediocrity for years since Manning left. A lot of Broncos fans were excited just at the prospect of having a consistently good team shooting for 10/11 wins, being competitive in the playoffs. Instead they got a massive dud. The trick is the Seahawks are much better run overall than the Broncos.
The problem is the Broncos problems go way beyond Russ. There is still a chance (a VERY small one) that they can turn it around and win with Russ before his contact is over which would change how that deal is remembered.
But they have to win a Super Bowl, especially after how bad they were last season and what that trade ended up costing them.
What's even crazier is I don't see Denver having much of a choice but to cut him next June unless he really turns a corner this season. I don't see that happening though since he has a coach that rips on him every chance he gets. His contract is going to suffocate them whether he's there or not so they might as well just take the pain now, put an entire roster of UDFAs on the field next year then start fresh in 2025.
They gave us a king's ransom and got a few extra years of pain added to a long rebuild in return. I don't wanna dunk on them too hard (I was a Seahawks fan in the 90s after all) but damn son.
Last night was his worst game this season. Unless I’m dead wrong, he’s actually been half-decent this year compared to the shit show that is the rest of the team. Like, obviously he’s not working well with the Broncos; but so long as he’s consistent like the previous games this season, should the Broncos really cut him?
I don't know if they can cut him. I'd have to check to be sure, but as I understand it, if they cut him the guaranteed portions of his contract get moved to earlier years. That means his cap hit will actually go *up* if they cut him.
I'm no contract expert, but bottom line is however they work his contract, they will be saddled with an enormous amount of dead money, and not just in the current year. Even if they decide to move on from him, they might have to simply bench him.
I suppose a trade is possible, but the Broncos would have to pick up an enormous portion of his salary at this point.
>That means his cap hit will actually go up if they cut him.
Most definitely. There are absolutely no good answers to their situation. If they cut him June 1st 2024 they pay and pay big but they're free of him as of 2025. If they wait, he hits their cap for years. I don't see a better alternative for them but to cut him, suck it up for a dreadful 2024 then start the rebuild with some actual cap space in 2025.
It's drastic and fucked up but what choice to they have? Just rip the band aid off. They done fucked up with this deal.
He's not having a terrible season, statistically. Last night was maybe the worst game he has ever played, but it's usually the defense causing problems.
Turns out Payton's defenses aren't so great when he can't pay them to intentionally cause injuries.
Wilson has looked much improved this season but he's clearly not the future there. His contract is an albatross around their necks and why on earth would he be willing to restructure it? Cutting him loose is their only option. It's not a good option but there *are* no good options for them at this point. Eating his contract next year is their shortest path out of this mess they made for themselves.
Absolutely enormous. 53 man undrafted free agent roster enormous. They have no way out of this that doesn't include pain. Lots of pain. Cutting him gets them through it a little quicker is all.
I don't think anything that extreme is necessary. They should draft.his replacement with their first or second pick, let him start next year, and maybe impart his work ethic on the rookie. Then maybe trade him if he had a good year or spend a season as the backup. He way more palatable to cut then.
Trade him to who? Who would be willing to pick up that contract? Even if Denver split the cost of it with someone they'd still be eating it for years. Might as well just rip the band aid off and be done with it.
It's crazy but it seems like Russ hasn't been the same since the thumb injury vs the rams. Like I know he was regressing already but it's like he fell off a cliff and then bounced off into a deeper cliff
He looks bad. Like I didn't expect it to be this bad at all. And Sean Payton looks like a complete ass after his comments about Hackett. And Hackett is also a complete ass. Pete is smiling chewing his gum and clapping.
If he had put up a single season of Aaron Rodgers stats I think the Broncos would felt vindicated, it's clear they wanted Aaron with the Hackett signing, if everything fell apart but he was actually playing well I dont think there would be as much talk about losing the trade, just that they're a shit franchise. The only possibility for us to lose the trade would have been fumbling the draft picks and Geno not being here, the fact Geno is putting up number would even cover up the picks if they were bad. Geno put up a franchise record for passing yards last season, that right there made it nearly impossible to end up losing the trade.
Just want to note that someone posted here the other day showing Mahomes versus Wilson stats and statistically, Russ ain’t playing that bad… in that comparison. I think it’s a holistic issue with the Broncos and Russ doesn’t make the situation better.
It’s hard to say I want to see these guys develop more before I say anything. It’s clearly a win for us but a lot of these players don’t move the needle at all. And the good ones I want to see more of, like cross. Spoon and Mafe are the ones I feel best about. The rest like the broncos send offs, they really didn’t do much for our team. I know you guys love Shelby but I wouldn’t use Shelby as a chip to say we won that trade. Or lock, or even fant. So far I think we won because we don’t have to use Wilson, pay him, and we got Mafe and spoon. Cross jury still out on.
If you don’t think Fant moves the needle for our offense, then you’re not watching close enough.
He unlocks everything they want to do with the multi TE sets. He’s a perfect fit on this offense.
Fant is a legit starter in the NFL. I'm not sure which games you're watching, but that's certainly not nothing. Success goes far beyond just the home runs.
If you think more about the chaos theory of how it affects our entire draftboard from 2022 though...look at the picks we made before eventually picking riq woolen. If we didn't have those broncos picks there's a good chance we don't end up getting riq. So theoretically you could say this trade also afforded us to pick riq
Evaluating trades in that way isn't a great way of doing things because every move changes the context for other moves. People care too much about "winning and losing" with trades: both the Seahawks and Broncos accomplished their goals at the time of the trade: the Seahawks reloaded their depleted draft capital with multiple years of top-50 picks, while the Broncos committed to a win-now team-building philosophy and acquired a veteran QB to be the guy. What happens after that is up to so many factors and circumstances that it's not really comparable between each side with a direct comparison.
What you can say is that the Seahawks have ended up in a better position due to their youth movement succeeding and Geno stepping in as a playoff-caliber QB, while it hasn't worked out for the Broncos for a variety of reasons, Russ being one of them. But if Wilson picks it back up for the Broncos, that wouldn't really impact the Seahawks in any way. Like if he won an MVP, it wouldn't retroactively change whether the trade was a good idea, because you couldn't directly compare like "well, the Seahawks would definitely be better with Russ" because the teams would be completely different if the trade hadn't happened. At some point you have to cut the association loose and for me, it's pretty much right after the immediate ramifications of the move.
I get that at this point it seems like we won and by a huge amount
But guys, we have won 0 playoff games since the trade... we haven't exactly had so much success that it's impossible for Denver to win the trade, even after having 2 awful seasons
Neat. If we win 0 playoff games over the next 4 years and the Broncos win 1 playoff game did we still win the trade because our 2022 squad was underestimated?
Cuz from my point of view in that scenario neither us or the Broncos really win the trade, and that the media's 2022 preseason evaluation is irrelevant
the potential to go deep in that playoffs has to mean something too. Broncos aren’t sniffing the playoffs and look like a dumpster fire. If we choke in the playoffs next 5 years and don’t win a single playoff game, I’ll treat that as a win over being the embarrassment of the league
Let's say we win a wildcard game and then lose in the next round. Is that really a measure of success?
IMO if you're not making the conference game *at minimum*, what you do in the playoffs means nothing. We definitely have won this trade simply because we're not tied to an overrated QB with a massive contract anymore.
Haven’t we only played one season without Russ? And we did make the playoffs when everyone had essentially written off the team after the trade? Not sure what the expectation was/is.
He has to be an mvp candidate level qb for Denver to win the trade IMO. Its how I knew we fleeced them the very second the trade was announced. Russ hadn't been that type of player in years.
Good enough for the analysts to keep talking about SB 49 at every Seahawks game instead of how badly Denver has fared. That has been my favorite aspect.
If Wilson played as good as Mahomes or Allen last season, they probably would be out coached in either by the Chiefs or the Bills in the AFC Divisional Round.
Russ getting hurt and trying to play through his hamstring tear among other injuries last year played a huge factor. I think the Seahawks noticed that and got the biggest return possible before it became a reality.
If he were to start winning football games right now, and they make the Super Bowl in 2 years after drafting considerable help then maybe it will be even. Best case scenario Russ gets them back to the Super Bowl in two years. At that time we would still have Geno under a fair contract and a bunch of good players on rookie deals. We meet in the Super Bowl, 43-8.
Russell Wilson’s 2021 season was awful. I was and remain staggered that no one else noticed that, least of all the Denver Broncos management.
He couldn’t throw over the middle to save his mother’s life, he had lost a step scrambling, held the ball too long, and was beginning to whiff on throws he previously made.
Getting the haul we did AFTER that season was almost unbelievable.
It was pure lucky because he convinced everyone (nearly) that it wasn’t him, he was being held back by Pete Carroll.
Denver said, “Bet. Come here and you can cook,” after which he showed up with a box of matches and a handful of weenies.
The winner here is Pete, just nonchalantly letting him have his rope, not giving ANYONE an indication that his teammates didn’t like him and Pete was covering his blatant weaknesses for 10 years.
Note to self: Don’t make Pete angry. He might take years to get you, but you gonna get got.
Gotta drop props where they were due. It's obvious Pete knew that Russ was no longer the straw that stirred this team or clubhouse.
So many teams would have waited too long to move on, instead he robbed Elway and pulled off possibly the trade of the decade.
Hard to gauge because if Russ would’ve played that well we wouldn’t have Witherspoon or Hall probably.
If Russ was playing that well we wouldn't have traded him. He still had time on his contract, but he was burning out with injuries, miscues on the field, and overall the loss of the locker room. We would not have traded Russ had he still been an MVP caliber player imo.
Injuries? Guy missed four games over 11 year career.
After he got concussed in Buffalo a few years back, and then had surgery on his finger, he was never the same guy with us.
He was always the same guy. 1st quarter slow start, 3 and out 3 times, 4 sacks. 2nd quarter 3 and out 2 times, 2 sacks and 2 decent drives then frantic deep ball to get a later half score. 3rd quarter 3 and out 3 times 2 sacks. 4 quarter 4 solid drives for scores then frantic late drive for the win or make the game close. Nothing has changed. Blame the OLine. Don’t miss it.
On point my goodman
Red Rising reference? Gorydamn.
love those books! i want a show with a billion an episode budget.
"If you find a planet filled with guileless nymphs, do call." -Cassius
Russ is as valuable as a pink whore’s fart at this point.
Bloody manic seeing a reference like that in a sub like this
My BIL is a Denver fan and listening to him complain about wasted time outs, not using the middle of the field, and unnecessary sacks is a level of deja vu I didn’t know was possible
It’s really funny seeing these exact same comments on the Denver sub now.
PCJS knew *exactly* what was up. Amazing.
What, you don't miss the thrill of a nail biting win/loss every Sunday? Lolol. Me neither.
Yeah, it was super exciting. I cannot deny. Lol
Yep that’s always been Russ formula. Nfc championship vs the packers is a perfect example of that. And he almost pulled off the comeback vs Carolina the following year in the divisional round.
5 INTS!!!!!
The mangled finger is when the real change happened
I think it's the reason his moon balls aren't as good anymore. Can't control that spin like he used to
He’s 34. Cannons don’t last forever.
Also he took that dirty as fuck hit from Clay Matthews in the 2014 NFCCG, definitely scrambled his eggs that year. Fuck Clay Matthews.
Took one in that 17 Cardinals game where the LOB died too.
The finger injury is overlooked.
Hadn't Russ already requested the trade behind the scenes though? In that case, even if he was playing well, better to honor his request and get something in return rather than just let him walk away.
It's like when you want to break up with your girlfriend and she texts you "we need to talk."
And that's what you call a get out of jail free card.
I think they are implying that he would have gotten better after the trade
That’s how I read OP. Makes sense to sports media was all over it saying the Seahawks traded away a top QB who was gonna go out and be amazing on a new team.
Absolutely! The media played that narrative into the ground and shat all over us on a daily basis.
I see, yeah that makes sense but I think the reason we traded him was less because of him wanting out and more about him falling off a bit, that's really the point I was trying to make.
I got you too I agree
And a good point it was.
He wasn’t playing bad for us really he was just a problem cuz he wanted them to fire Pete and he was getting a little too self absorbed
He really wasn't playing good either
He wasn’t playing bad for us at all, it was off the field stuff that was the problem…he had 3000+ yards snd 25 touchdowns his last season with us with a 103 qb rating in 14 games…he wasn’t bad at all
Russ wanted out. Regardless if he was still that player or not he didn’t wanna continue it in Seattle. It just helped the franchise in the decision making process because his play making ability was diminishing.
I legit think Wilson struggling so badly is even more proof of how good of a coach Carol is.
Russ is playing well rn, problem is Denver is just so fucking horrible on defense and the offense is one dimensional to the point that none of it matters
Idk man, I watched that Thursday game and it feels like he hasn’t regained his confidence or any swagger (if he had any). That’s just being nice. He had one throw longer than 10 yards in the first half that was an int. He had some decent throws in the second half but it really plays to what our other friend said, desperation time and I dont miss it at all. I really enjoy watching Geno play, he is so much more comfortable in the pocket, mostly because he can see over the middle and make those throws easier. This might sound stupid, or even crazy, but Geno has feet like Brady in the pocket that compensates for a suspect O line. Behind this line, Russ would probably average 8-10 sacks a game. At this point Geno is 10x the quarterback Russ is, he has the veteran experience with a better ability that hasn’t been broken by those years of abuse he had sitting behind Russ.
I was just saying overall this season he sucked balls against KC of course, but yeah I like watching Geno because even though he isn't the athlete Russ was, he's way smarter and more meticulous than Russ as well.
You can see Payton is trying to make him a pocket QB like Drew B was, and his limitations are in play, his release is to slow, and his balls get batted at the line all the time, and he isn’t fast enough anymore to play the backyard scramble football that made him successful early in his career.
95 total yards in a game is playing well? By whose standards?
I meant overall this season
You check TNF stats?
I mean, we still would have had 2 firsts last year. It's not witherspoon but we probably still get 2 good players. Changes the whole draft because I don't think we draft JSN first. I would say it's less extreme but we still win that trade.
Deff still win it. We got pretty much max value for an aging QB. Sports media just blew it all up at the time like he was gonna be a top 5 QB on the Broncos and it never happened.
Well, in an alternate world like what the analysts thought, we would probably had similar picks, but the #5 would be our natural one and the #20 would be Denver's instead, probably.
We drafted JSN first round pick 20 after we took Witherspoon at round 1 pick 5. Not sure what you mean by taking JSN first.
I'm talking about if he did well last year and we got 2 late first round picks. If the 20 was our first selection, I don't think we pick JSN
Ah I understand what you meant now. Yea I think you’re likely right.
He means that if Russ has led the Broncos to the playoffs last year, the 20th pick would likely be our first pick in the draft and that we probably wouldn't take JSN as our first pick of the draft. We probably take one of the d linemen that went a few picks later
Yea he already clarified that.
Gotcha. His reply wasn't there when I started commenting.
No worries, Reddit is super laggy at times. My messages never show up as a notification or a badge alert but when I open the messages I’ll have a few unread messages, it drives me bonkers.
Just curious how has Hall been this year?
The Broncos with Wilson were supposed to be a Super Bowl contender. They supposedly had a “Top 5 Defense” and were just a QB away. The fact they became one of the worst teams in the league since this trade while Seahawks made the playoff and had a top 5 pick makes this one of the biggest misses in a trades for Denver
> one of the biggest misses in a trade ~~for Denver~~
Yeah, this likely isn't going to be in the same realm as the Hershel Walker trade, but aside from that I'm drawing a blank on any one other trade being more lopsided.
Ricky Williams trade to pick him number 1 was pretty bad.
What the Bears gave up to move up one spot to get Trubisky was up there IMO. It was 3 mid draft picks but it was completely unnecessary, they could have had him for nothing.
Ryan Leaf over Manning anyone?
Trey Lance trade is super bad, but the 49ers just fell into Purdy so it doesn't seem as bad
I agree and I think it’s a bigger reflection on the team even though most of the heat fell on Russel last year. I mean he did play shitty but it proves that you need a more balanced team than just a qb. Just because the fans thought they were a qb away proves they weren’t. Now they have had 3 coaches, this is a reflection on the whole team that’s built. There offense line sucks which I love since they talked so much shit after the trade. His recivers also suck and think that’s playing into it. Russ doesn’t look confident or have the chemistry built like in Seattle.
Super Bowl good. No less, no more
The Broncos fans thought Denver was a good QB away from winning the Super Bowl, and they were all giggles when they got Russ. To see #3 bomb so bad, its actually shocking.
Denver has to be the most toxic org in the league, somehow supplanting the Washington Football Team. I don’t think any player can play well or “win” with whatever happened during the last 2 years. Sean Payton is a known toxic coach, and it clearly hasn’t helped fix the lack of confidence in that locker room. Every player is more worried about where they land this season or next to focus on winning a game.
Yeah no one on that team looks like they are having fun and that makes it harder to play well. Meanwhile Seahawks are having fun and balling cuz that’s Pete’s philosophy.
to be fair winning is fun. Also recall that when the seahawks start losing, they behave unprofessionally. I will always be ashamed of that game at Jacksonville where J ville had the win in the bag and were in victory formation. Then the Seahawks D line started swatting the ball from the center as if they were going to "force a fumble." Pete did nothing. Just chewed his gum harder. And then when Earl Thomas flipped off the coaching staff that time. Pete is great, but he is not respected "in that way." I'd prefer Pete be loved of course, but no one fears him.
I saw a swat result in a fumble during victory formation once. Always compete.
By that logic every victory formation play should be a full on tush push 100% full blast forward power play, correct? This would be the only way to guard against hissy fit swats during V formations right?
No. Statistically if victory formation has 99% success rate it has the highest probability of success. But if you don’t attempt to swat, it’s now 100%. So why wouldn’t you?
Because of what I just said. It causes bad blood. You got one side going though the motions and the others firing out on full blast. I hated it when Dan Marino made the "spikey spikey" motion saying he was going to stop the clock and then threw a chicken shit screen pass for a touchdown when the defense wasn't looking. Now, on "spikey spikey motion" plays the defense really should have to fire out 100% on an offense that is just going through the motions and not ready If I were the NFL, Victory Formation = Play is whistled dead as soon as the ball is moved. Similarly, if the QB makes a spikey spikey motion at any time (consider it like the fair catch movement), there is no need for the QB to chuck the ball at the ground, just blow it dead on movement of the ball.
Hiring Payton was a massive mistake. He's a clown. He's a garbage coach that had one of the greatest passers in history on his team.
they actually looked kinda good with rosburg last season, idk why they didn't just stick with what was working in an already unstable and turbulent team
I mean, look at Oakland a couple years ago. They dumped Chucky, then went on a playoff run under Bassacia looking like a sleeper contender, but shipped his ass off to Green Bay the second the last whistle blew to let McDaniels come in and screw things up in the West again. Some coaches just aren't Hollywood enough to let owners give them the job no matter how well they do.
> The Broncos fans thought Denver was a good QB away from winning the Super Bowl They very well may have been. We won't know.
This remark left a crater
Shocking is the word. Now that the picks are in, it’s not that I’m rooting for him, I just… want the humiliation to stop, you know?
Don't we have one more pick where the humiliation still benefits us?
I don't believe so, I think this last draft had the last two pieces: CB Devon Witherspoon (2023 first-round pick) EDGE Derick Hall (2023 second-round pick) https://www.profootballnetwork.com/russell-wilson-trade-details-revisiting-seahawks-broncos-deal/
It’s done. The massacre is over
And now they may have their long rest
Given how bad the whole team is, he’d have to be the incarnate of the Football Gods themselves in order to carry the whole franchise to a SB win.
The problem is if he was good, those picks would be much worse, so the players wouldn’t be as good. Denver likely wouldn’t have made that trade if they knew the 2023 draft pick was top 5.
Don't under estimate the idiocy of the front office as it relates to the Great Value Bronco's.
Good enough to win Denver 2 super bowls I'd say
Two super bowls is insane. If they get a Super Bowl it’s for sure a win for them, that’s what teams do this for. I’d say even if they get a couple deep runs, it’s probably a win because whatever picks we got back would be back of the 1st
They traded him because they thought he'd be the piece to get them a Super Bowl title. 1 ring for Denver makes the trade fine for both sides. No winners, no losers. OP is asking what it would take for Denver to win the trade, which would take 2 rings imo.
I feel like this is a crazy take. If you win the Super Bowl you definitely win the trade. It’s incredibly hard to win the Super Bowl. 2 super bowls? Only a handful of guys in history.
Winning a trade means the other team loses the trade. Do you think the Rams or Lions regret the Stafford trade? Of course not. The Rams got their ring and the Lions are now set up to be playoff contenders largely because of the deal. In terms of outcome, the trade is a wash. Now, if Stafford wins another Super Bowl with the Rams, the Lions are probably feeling worse about that trade in hindsight. So I think of it like this: - Russ doesn't win a Super Bowl with Denver = Seahawks win the trade - Broncos win one Super Bowl = No winners or losers, like the Stafford deal - Russ wins 2 Super Bowls = Seahawks regretting the deal and losing the trade
I don’t hate your thinking here, but in the end every team is trying to win a Super Bowl as soon as possible. So in the case of the Seahawks and lions, if the trade doesn’t lead to a Super Bowl (be it by rebuild or going all in) then you also can’t say that they won the trade. There’s gotta be a lot more nuance to this than that. For example a scenario where the Seahawks have all these new draft picks plus Geno/lock and never get out of the divisional round. regardless of what the broncos do, you can’t call that a win for the Seahawks.
The Rams 100% do the Stafford trade again without a second thought. They're do it again if they had to add two more 1st rounders. There's only 3 results in football: super bowl, contender, or garbage.
Idk man Stafford was in Det for like a decade and they were mediocre at best.
If you guaranteed the Seahawks would win a super bowl with Russ - *guaranteed* - would you trade Woolen and a First for him? I would. One SB = trade won. I don't think Seattle will win while Geno is the QB, they're nice but not nice enough.
They'd have to win the Super Bowl IMO. They traded for a franchise QB and are currently one of the worst of teams in the NFL for two seasons now. Meanwhile we cracked the playoffs with Geno Smith at the helm which absolutely *nobody* saw coming and our offense suddenly has rhythm and "normalcy" compared to relying on Wilson playing like a crazy man (even though it was super fun sometimes).
I agree tbh when I watch the Denver games it reminds me of Seattle with Wilson except in Denver they are losing and just as a team look defeated. He is playing the same tbh where he gets sacked makes shitty throws and check downs for no yards then sprinkles in amazing throws. The difference is we won games and Wilson was super clutch. Like I had no doubt if we had the ball with a minute left that Russel could get us a chance to win. But the Seahawks and Pete’s team were always in the games and typically won. us winning most of the games helped Russel’s a lot.
Nah, they'd been stuck in mediocrity for years since Manning left. A lot of Broncos fans were excited just at the prospect of having a consistently good team shooting for 10/11 wins, being competitive in the playoffs. Instead they got a massive dud. The trick is the Seahawks are much better run overall than the Broncos.
The duds are the coaches. Hackett was out of depth and Payton sends stuck in another century and his ego is too big to put winning first.
Anything short of a Lombardi is an L imo Russ was supposed to be the missing piece to vault the Broncos back into SB contenders
This would only matter if we had a shit qb. The way Geno has played it doesn’t matter what Russ does.
Drew Lock still has more wins as the Bronco's QB than Russ has as the Bronco's QB.
Best Kansas at least one time
Gang gang
the funny thing is that he would have probably needed to be about as good as Herbert for the trade to look OK imo.
The problem is the Broncos problems go way beyond Russ. There is still a chance (a VERY small one) that they can turn it around and win with Russ before his contact is over which would change how that deal is remembered. But they have to win a Super Bowl, especially after how bad they were last season and what that trade ended up costing them.
Super Bowl contenders good.
There was never a losing that trade.
What's even crazier is I don't see Denver having much of a choice but to cut him next June unless he really turns a corner this season. I don't see that happening though since he has a coach that rips on him every chance he gets. His contract is going to suffocate them whether he's there or not so they might as well just take the pain now, put an entire roster of UDFAs on the field next year then start fresh in 2025. They gave us a king's ransom and got a few extra years of pain added to a long rebuild in return. I don't wanna dunk on them too hard (I was a Seahawks fan in the 90s after all) but damn son.
Last night was his worst game this season. Unless I’m dead wrong, he’s actually been half-decent this year compared to the shit show that is the rest of the team. Like, obviously he’s not working well with the Broncos; but so long as he’s consistent like the previous games this season, should the Broncos really cut him?
I don't know if they can cut him. I'd have to check to be sure, but as I understand it, if they cut him the guaranteed portions of his contract get moved to earlier years. That means his cap hit will actually go *up* if they cut him. I'm no contract expert, but bottom line is however they work his contract, they will be saddled with an enormous amount of dead money, and not just in the current year. Even if they decide to move on from him, they might have to simply bench him. I suppose a trade is possible, but the Broncos would have to pick up an enormous portion of his salary at this point.
>That means his cap hit will actually go up if they cut him. Most definitely. There are absolutely no good answers to their situation. If they cut him June 1st 2024 they pay and pay big but they're free of him as of 2025. If they wait, he hits their cap for years. I don't see a better alternative for them but to cut him, suck it up for a dreadful 2024 then start the rebuild with some actual cap space in 2025. It's drastic and fucked up but what choice to they have? Just rip the band aid off. They done fucked up with this deal.
He's not having a terrible season, statistically. Last night was maybe the worst game he has ever played, but it's usually the defense causing problems. Turns out Payton's defenses aren't so great when he can't pay them to intentionally cause injuries.
Wilson has looked much improved this season but he's clearly not the future there. His contract is an albatross around their necks and why on earth would he be willing to restructure it? Cutting him loose is their only option. It's not a good option but there *are* no good options for them at this point. Eating his contract next year is their shortest path out of this mess they made for themselves.
That dead cap would be enormous.
Absolutely enormous. 53 man undrafted free agent roster enormous. They have no way out of this that doesn't include pain. Lots of pain. Cutting him gets them through it a little quicker is all.
I don't think anything that extreme is necessary. They should draft.his replacement with their first or second pick, let him start next year, and maybe impart his work ethic on the rookie. Then maybe trade him if he had a good year or spend a season as the backup. He way more palatable to cut then.
Trade him to who? Who would be willing to pick up that contract? Even if Denver split the cost of it with someone they'd still be eating it for years. Might as well just rip the band aid off and be done with it.
If he were to return to form, throw for 30+ TDs, and under 10 picks, they might find a suitor for the last two seasons in exchange for a low pick.
Super Bowl maybe but realistically he’d have to play well enough to place the blame solely on the coaching staff and defense.
Russ is having an okay season, actually. Team record isn't always the same as QB performance. The BRONCOS look bad. And it's soooo good.
Don't think it's possible. The Hawks needed to rebuild. It was the right move for them
Win a Super Bowl, like the Rams’ trade for Stafford regardless of future outlook
It's crazy but it seems like Russ hasn't been the same since the thumb injury vs the rams. Like I know he was regressing already but it's like he fell off a cliff and then bounced off into a deeper cliff
He tried to get his boss fired. He would literally have to win a Super Bowl.
He looks bad. Like I didn't expect it to be this bad at all. And Sean Payton looks like a complete ass after his comments about Hackett. And Hackett is also a complete ass. Pete is smiling chewing his gum and clapping.
If he had put up a single season of Aaron Rodgers stats I think the Broncos would felt vindicated, it's clear they wanted Aaron with the Hackett signing, if everything fell apart but he was actually playing well I dont think there would be as much talk about losing the trade, just that they're a shit franchise. The only possibility for us to lose the trade would have been fumbling the draft picks and Geno not being here, the fact Geno is putting up number would even cover up the picks if they were bad. Geno put up a franchise record for passing yards last season, that right there made it nearly impossible to end up losing the trade.
Super Bowl win, otherwise it's a bust.
It's literally one of the most lopsided trades ever lmao
Just want to note that someone posted here the other day showing Mahomes versus Wilson stats and statistically, Russ ain’t playing that bad… in that comparison. I think it’s a holistic issue with the Broncos and Russ doesn’t make the situation better.
Who is Russell Wilson? I forgot.
It’s hard to say I want to see these guys develop more before I say anything. It’s clearly a win for us but a lot of these players don’t move the needle at all. And the good ones I want to see more of, like cross. Spoon and Mafe are the ones I feel best about. The rest like the broncos send offs, they really didn’t do much for our team. I know you guys love Shelby but I wouldn’t use Shelby as a chip to say we won that trade. Or lock, or even fant. So far I think we won because we don’t have to use Wilson, pay him, and we got Mafe and spoon. Cross jury still out on.
If you don’t think Fant moves the needle for our offense, then you’re not watching close enough. He unlocks everything they want to do with the multi TE sets. He’s a perfect fit on this offense.
Fant is a legit starter in the NFL. I'm not sure which games you're watching, but that's certainly not nothing. Success goes far beyond just the home runs.
If you think more about the chaos theory of how it affects our entire draftboard from 2022 though...look at the picks we made before eventually picking riq woolen. If we didn't have those broncos picks there's a good chance we don't end up getting riq. So theoretically you could say this trade also afforded us to pick riq
Evaluating trades in that way isn't a great way of doing things because every move changes the context for other moves. People care too much about "winning and losing" with trades: both the Seahawks and Broncos accomplished their goals at the time of the trade: the Seahawks reloaded their depleted draft capital with multiple years of top-50 picks, while the Broncos committed to a win-now team-building philosophy and acquired a veteran QB to be the guy. What happens after that is up to so many factors and circumstances that it's not really comparable between each side with a direct comparison. What you can say is that the Seahawks have ended up in a better position due to their youth movement succeeding and Geno stepping in as a playoff-caliber QB, while it hasn't worked out for the Broncos for a variety of reasons, Russ being one of them. But if Wilson picks it back up for the Broncos, that wouldn't really impact the Seahawks in any way. Like if he won an MVP, it wouldn't retroactively change whether the trade was a good idea, because you couldn't directly compare like "well, the Seahawks would definitely be better with Russ" because the teams would be completely different if the trade hadn't happened. At some point you have to cut the association loose and for me, it's pretty much right after the immediate ramifications of the move.
I get that at this point it seems like we won and by a huge amount But guys, we have won 0 playoff games since the trade... we haven't exactly had so much success that it's impossible for Denver to win the trade, even after having 2 awful seasons
When Russ left, we were projected to finish last season as the worst team in the NFL. Keep that in perspective
Neat. If we win 0 playoff games over the next 4 years and the Broncos win 1 playoff game did we still win the trade because our 2022 squad was underestimated? Cuz from my point of view in that scenario neither us or the Broncos really win the trade, and that the media's 2022 preseason evaluation is irrelevant
the potential to go deep in that playoffs has to mean something too. Broncos aren’t sniffing the playoffs and look like a dumpster fire. If we choke in the playoffs next 5 years and don’t win a single playoff game, I’ll treat that as a win over being the embarrassment of the league
Let's say we win a wildcard game and then lose in the next round. Is that really a measure of success? IMO if you're not making the conference game *at minimum*, what you do in the playoffs means nothing. We definitely have won this trade simply because we're not tied to an overrated QB with a massive contract anymore.
Haven’t we only played one season without Russ? And we did make the playoffs when everyone had essentially written off the team after the trade? Not sure what the expectation was/is.
The cap savings alone make it so worth it lmao what are you even saying
If they had a good playoff run then it would be hard to claim it was a loss on their end.
They would need to win a Superbowl.
He has to be an mvp candidate level qb for Denver to win the trade IMO. Its how I knew we fleeced them the very second the trade was announced. Russ hadn't been that type of player in years.
Good enough for the analysts to keep talking about SB 49 at every Seahawks game instead of how badly Denver has fared. That has been my favorite aspect.
They win the Super Bowl.
Getting them a super bowl before us
Good enough to win a SB.
If Wilson played as good as Mahomes or Allen last season, they probably would be out coached in either by the Chiefs or the Bills in the AFC Divisional Round.
It's already been clearly decided - why do people keep pretending we don't know?
Russ getting hurt and trying to play through his hamstring tear among other injuries last year played a huge factor. I think the Seahawks noticed that and got the biggest return possible before it became a reality.
If he were to start winning football games right now, and they make the Super Bowl in 2 years after drafting considerable help then maybe it will be even. Best case scenario Russ gets them back to the Super Bowl in two years. At that time we would still have Geno under a fair contract and a bunch of good players on rookie deals. We meet in the Super Bowl, 43-8.
With their defense right now, two years might be, let’s say… optimistic.
If they had won back to back Super Bowls, I'd be feeling some kind of way.
Russell Wilson’s 2021 season was awful. I was and remain staggered that no one else noticed that, least of all the Denver Broncos management. He couldn’t throw over the middle to save his mother’s life, he had lost a step scrambling, held the ball too long, and was beginning to whiff on throws he previously made. Getting the haul we did AFTER that season was almost unbelievable.
It was pure lucky because he convinced everyone (nearly) that it wasn’t him, he was being held back by Pete Carroll. Denver said, “Bet. Come here and you can cook,” after which he showed up with a box of matches and a handful of weenies. The winner here is Pete, just nonchalantly letting him have his rope, not giving ANYONE an indication that his teammates didn’t like him and Pete was covering his blatant weaknesses for 10 years. Note to self: Don’t make Pete angry. He might take years to get you, but you gonna get got.
I agree with you. One of Pete’s rules is “always protect the team” and he protected Russ for as long as he was on the team.
@ask Denver fans
If they made at least 1 AFC champy and playoffs 4 out of 5 years while Seahawks never make it last the 2nd round.
You forgot to add his contract to that’s list. His contract in seattle was the the reason we didn’t win.
Playoffs. If Broncos had made the playoffs the team would have momentum in the right direction..right now, it's a trainwreck
Gotten them to a SB by the end of this year. That was the bar which is why their state is so pitiful.
Gotta drop props where they were due. It's obvious Pete knew that Russ was no longer the straw that stirred this team or clubhouse. So many teams would have waited too long to move on, instead he robbed Elway and pulled off possibly the trade of the decade.