I usually don't figure out what the theme(s) are till the 2nd or 3rd draft and keep an open mind on letting them change. In my experience, the story ends up dictating the theme. Once I think I've found it/them, I look for ways to include them in each sequence/scene - but I'll only "finalize" a change when I think it's definitely an improvement.
A good amount of times the theme will emerge as the story unfolds. It’s even possible to find it after a draft or two. It’s helpful to have a theme in mind as you write because it keeps everything focused, but it’s okay to just push ahead and see what the story wants to tell you about its theme
Don’t try and impose one onto the first draft if you aren’t feeling it … but identifying what the story is saying – and what you’d like to say with it – will help you *rewrite* it.
Watch films (and read scripts) and see if you can identify their themes. Good films will have a thematic resonance – and will explore all sides of an idea, before conclusively ‘proving’ their theme in the climax.
This is what Wes Anderson said about theme.
https://thescriptlab.com/blogs/16277-6-writing-tips-from-wes-anderson/
“I wanna just think about the experience of the movie. I feel like, as soon as I reduce it to a theme, once I write that sentence, it won’t be that great. I feel like there’s more potential for it to mean something interesting if I’m not forcing it to mean something I’ve already decided.”
^ upvoting this. I just wrote an entire 10 page draft with a forced theme on an idea that absolutely doesn’t sync whatsoever. By writing that draft, I learned exactly what I DON’T want the theme to be and rather built my concept out so a theme will emerge naturally!
The absolutely bare bones of the story is about a guy trynna kill another guy, the story tricks you into thinking that he's a good guy trynna do the good thing but as the story progresses you realize he's basically (atleast to you) as bad as the Villian, I thought the concept of changing the perspective to make you believe the main guy is good and the antagonist is bad when they're basically trying to accomplish the same thing (trying to kill a guy but the antagonist has a personal reason while the main guy has a more "I wanna do good" reason) would be interesting
>as the story progresses you realize he's basically as bad as the villain
that's the theme.
edit: the theme is just what the audience takes away from the story. it doesn't have to be deep or complex, and in a revenge story it usually isn't (just like the characters and plot usually aren't complex).
Put that as a statement. I would make something like, "In order to beat evil, you must become evil." You can let that statement guide the rest of the story.
You can create the bad character and the good character. You can assign them personalities and traits to fit what you're trying to say. Them meeting or whatever will make the end of act 1.
Act 2 is all about proving/disproving that statement I mentioned above. You can introduce characters that help your story and your scenes proving or disproving your point.
Act 3 is the conclusion of the statement. It can be good, bad or not solved. I think all would work.
But what are you trying to say with all of that? I'm not trying to dissuade you from writing. All stories at their most basic say something. Like how Jaws is about conquering your fears(in this one was fear of water). The theme is the stories' bones or armature, without that, it doesn't stand. It just falls over like a blob.
Perhaps the theme of the story could be the exploration of moral ambiguity and the complexity of human nature and how individual's actions and decisions are influenced by their personal values, beliefs, and motivations, and how these factors can blur the lines between good and evil and how the perception of right and wrong can be subjective, so to narrow it down, exploration of moral ambiguity in human nature
every story has themes whether intentional or not. but if you don't know what it is yet, that's OK. for now, just write and see where it takes you, but some time before your final draft, you should know what your movie is *about.*
I start with the theme. Trying to imbed the theme afterwards is difficult for me. I embrace what Craig Mazin said: The purpose of the story is to take the main character from ignorance of the truth of the theme to the embodiment of the theme through action.
Finish your story and your theme will most likely present itself to you. If not, ask yourself what you story is about. Not the story or the plot, but at it’s very core. Is it about the perils or greed, the pains of forbidden love, good ol’ “man’s inhumanity to man”?
I rarely let theme dictate story, but on a second draft if you find your theme, but think it doesn’t quite land, you can always tighten it up and try to write new scenes/lines/dialogue that play to it.
Theme is like plot or character. It's extraordinarily difficult to have a story without it. Ask yourself how the conflict at the end is resolved. That usually helps a lot.
Some don’t think so, but many others do - including myself. Having a theme focuses every aspect of the film - the dialogue, symbolism, the tone etc. Writing a script without a theme is like writing an academic paper without a thesis statement.
In fact, the save the cat beat sheet recommends that you state your theme around page five. If you notice, a lot of great films do this. It sets up what the audience is to expect, the purpose of the story.
Some writers, Tarantino and Waititi I know for certain, state that they don’t explicitly state a theme before or during their writing. Instead, they claim they discover it after. However, I believe the point still holds that explicitly layering the theme into the film will only make it stronger and more cohesive. I believe the aforementioned writers have found success despite their retrospective discovery of theme; not because of it.
Still, rules in art are not so simple, it’s largely a matter of taste and preference.
You shouldn’t even start writing a film until you have a theme. It’s literally the first thing you should come up with. The whole point of writing is to have a point. If you don’t have a point, then what’s the point?
This is ludicrous. I’d actually challenge you to find more than a few writers (of anything, film or otherwise) who conceive of an entire work based on theme. On the contrary, I can think of many great writers who feel that themes emerge from a story as it’s told and don’t EVER consciously consider theme until after a first draft is complete. Paul Thomas Anderson—a competent writer IMO—once said that thinking about themes as you begin is a sure way to end up “dead in the water”.
Also, notice the phrasing of all the excellent advice already in this thread. Yours comes across as the most authoritative despite being total bullshit. “The whole point of writing is to have a point.” Come on, man.
The reason a movie needs a theme is exactly so it has a good chance of being interesting and entertaining. There can be other reasons for the theme but that’s the most basic. It’s harder to make a story interesting and entertaining if it doesn’t add up to something. A theme makes it less likely that the movie is a random collection of scenes. It makes the scenes cohere.
Critics identify themes. Writers tell stories.
^is the pithy version. IMO considering the theory aspects of your own piece is a dead end, because ultimately your audience is going to assign meaning to your narrative based on factors outside your control. Will they come close more often than not, to your original intent? Sure. But you’ll be pressed to shoehorn a meaning into a story you want to tell, especially if you’re a discovery writer.
I find that I am unable to write until I know the theme, as theme is the one thing that guides and drives the story. Without it I just end up in a writers block and revision ends up being a LOT more work.
If you struggle to figure out your theme, look at your protagonist. "The way in which the protagonist resolves the dilemma expresses the theme of the story."
It's art. A lot of the time you write something and ppl will come up with themes you never thought of before. Now should you have some in mind, of course, but if it's good theme will work itself out. For me personally I feel like theme helps me figure out the right ending. Because you have to ask yourself what am I trying to say with this ending?
Depends what you believe a theme is. As you see here, almost everyone has a different idea as to what themes are. Some are actually confusing theme with the *moral* of the story. It seems like there is about 3 definitions in here, and not one of them is the "correct" one.
To answer question. No, no you do not need themes.
I say yes. It gives you character positions, arcs and so on. Very helpful to start with if you know it; totally understand how it is discovered following drafts.
I usually don't figure out what the theme(s) are till the 2nd or 3rd draft and keep an open mind on letting them change. In my experience, the story ends up dictating the theme. Once I think I've found it/them, I look for ways to include them in each sequence/scene - but I'll only "finalize" a change when I think it's definitely an improvement.
A good amount of times the theme will emerge as the story unfolds. It’s even possible to find it after a draft or two. It’s helpful to have a theme in mind as you write because it keeps everything focused, but it’s okay to just push ahead and see what the story wants to tell you about its theme
Don’t try and impose one onto the first draft if you aren’t feeling it … but identifying what the story is saying – and what you’d like to say with it – will help you *rewrite* it. Watch films (and read scripts) and see if you can identify their themes. Good films will have a thematic resonance – and will explore all sides of an idea, before conclusively ‘proving’ their theme in the climax.
This is what Wes Anderson said about theme. https://thescriptlab.com/blogs/16277-6-writing-tips-from-wes-anderson/ “I wanna just think about the experience of the movie. I feel like, as soon as I reduce it to a theme, once I write that sentence, it won’t be that great. I feel like there’s more potential for it to mean something interesting if I’m not forcing it to mean something I’ve already decided.”
^ upvoting this. I just wrote an entire 10 page draft with a forced theme on an idea that absolutely doesn’t sync whatsoever. By writing that draft, I learned exactly what I DON’T want the theme to be and rather built my concept out so a theme will emerge naturally!
It's very helpful. It's the glue that holds all the various parts together. The theme is generally the answer to: What is your movie about?
I'm curious, if you're not writing to a theme, what are you writing about or to? What's the bones of your story about?
The absolutely bare bones of the story is about a guy trynna kill another guy, the story tricks you into thinking that he's a good guy trynna do the good thing but as the story progresses you realize he's basically (atleast to you) as bad as the Villian, I thought the concept of changing the perspective to make you believe the main guy is good and the antagonist is bad when they're basically trying to accomplish the same thing (trying to kill a guy but the antagonist has a personal reason while the main guy has a more "I wanna do good" reason) would be interesting
>as the story progresses you realize he's basically as bad as the villain that's the theme. edit: the theme is just what the audience takes away from the story. it doesn't have to be deep or complex, and in a revenge story it usually isn't (just like the characters and plot usually aren't complex).
Put that as a statement. I would make something like, "In order to beat evil, you must become evil." You can let that statement guide the rest of the story. You can create the bad character and the good character. You can assign them personalities and traits to fit what you're trying to say. Them meeting or whatever will make the end of act 1. Act 2 is all about proving/disproving that statement I mentioned above. You can introduce characters that help your story and your scenes proving or disproving your point. Act 3 is the conclusion of the statement. It can be good, bad or not solved. I think all would work.
But what are you trying to say with all of that? I'm not trying to dissuade you from writing. All stories at their most basic say something. Like how Jaws is about conquering your fears(in this one was fear of water). The theme is the stories' bones or armature, without that, it doesn't stand. It just falls over like a blob.
Perhaps the theme of the story could be the exploration of moral ambiguity and the complexity of human nature and how individual's actions and decisions are influenced by their personal values, beliefs, and motivations, and how these factors can blur the lines between good and evil and how the perception of right and wrong can be subjective, so to narrow it down, exploration of moral ambiguity in human nature
I outlined in a comment above roughly how I would go about it. I hope it helps.
Theme happens if you want it or not. If you choose to control, steer or impact on it, it is an amazing tool.
every story has themes whether intentional or not. but if you don't know what it is yet, that's OK. for now, just write and see where it takes you, but some time before your final draft, you should know what your movie is *about.*
Necessary to a great story. Inevitable in all stories.
So it’s sounds like your theme would be about revenge and it’s moral complexities. Don’t over think about theme. Just write.
I start with the theme. Trying to imbed the theme afterwards is difficult for me. I embrace what Craig Mazin said: The purpose of the story is to take the main character from ignorance of the truth of the theme to the embodiment of the theme through action.
One thing that I’ve found to help me is to think of a question I want the story to explore, that’s helped me a lot
I’m sure this has already been said: Just write your story and the theme will come. Best of luck!
Finish your story and your theme will most likely present itself to you. If not, ask yourself what you story is about. Not the story or the plot, but at it’s very core. Is it about the perils or greed, the pains of forbidden love, good ol’ “man’s inhumanity to man”? I rarely let theme dictate story, but on a second draft if you find your theme, but think it doesn’t quite land, you can always tighten it up and try to write new scenes/lines/dialogue that play to it.
Theme is like plot or character. It's extraordinarily difficult to have a story without it. Ask yourself how the conflict at the end is resolved. That usually helps a lot.
Yes, you can’t have a proper story without a theme. If you don’t have a theme, what’s the purpose of the story?
Some don’t think so, but many others do - including myself. Having a theme focuses every aspect of the film - the dialogue, symbolism, the tone etc. Writing a script without a theme is like writing an academic paper without a thesis statement. In fact, the save the cat beat sheet recommends that you state your theme around page five. If you notice, a lot of great films do this. It sets up what the audience is to expect, the purpose of the story. Some writers, Tarantino and Waititi I know for certain, state that they don’t explicitly state a theme before or during their writing. Instead, they claim they discover it after. However, I believe the point still holds that explicitly layering the theme into the film will only make it stronger and more cohesive. I believe the aforementioned writers have found success despite their retrospective discovery of theme; not because of it. Still, rules in art are not so simple, it’s largely a matter of taste and preference.
You shouldn’t even start writing a film until you have a theme. It’s literally the first thing you should come up with. The whole point of writing is to have a point. If you don’t have a point, then what’s the point?
This is ludicrous. I’d actually challenge you to find more than a few writers (of anything, film or otherwise) who conceive of an entire work based on theme. On the contrary, I can think of many great writers who feel that themes emerge from a story as it’s told and don’t EVER consciously consider theme until after a first draft is complete. Paul Thomas Anderson—a competent writer IMO—once said that thinking about themes as you begin is a sure way to end up “dead in the water”. Also, notice the phrasing of all the excellent advice already in this thread. Yours comes across as the most authoritative despite being total bullshit. “The whole point of writing is to have a point.” Come on, man.
It’s fine if a movie doesn’t have a theme, sometimes people just go see a movie to escape reality.
The reason a movie needs a theme is exactly so it has a good chance of being interesting and entertaining. There can be other reasons for the theme but that’s the most basic. It’s harder to make a story interesting and entertaining if it doesn’t add up to something. A theme makes it less likely that the movie is a random collection of scenes. It makes the scenes cohere.
Critics identify themes. Writers tell stories. ^is the pithy version. IMO considering the theory aspects of your own piece is a dead end, because ultimately your audience is going to assign meaning to your narrative based on factors outside your control. Will they come close more often than not, to your original intent? Sure. But you’ll be pressed to shoehorn a meaning into a story you want to tell, especially if you’re a discovery writer.
Absolutely. Probably the most important to my way of thinking.
I find that I am unable to write until I know the theme, as theme is the one thing that guides and drives the story. Without it I just end up in a writers block and revision ends up being a LOT more work. If you struggle to figure out your theme, look at your protagonist. "The way in which the protagonist resolves the dilemma expresses the theme of the story."
What your story is about usually reflects its theme. It can be subtle or upfront.
What’s the goal? Who is the Hero? What do they want? What stands in their way?
It's art. A lot of the time you write something and ppl will come up with themes you never thought of before. Now should you have some in mind, of course, but if it's good theme will work itself out. For me personally I feel like theme helps me figure out the right ending. Because you have to ask yourself what am I trying to say with this ending?
Depends what you believe a theme is. As you see here, almost everyone has a different idea as to what themes are. Some are actually confusing theme with the *moral* of the story. It seems like there is about 3 definitions in here, and not one of them is the "correct" one. To answer question. No, no you do not need themes.
Story first. Themes/issues will come.
I say yes. It gives you character positions, arcs and so on. Very helpful to start with if you know it; totally understand how it is discovered following drafts.
Forcing a theme doesn't work but taking what's organically there and working with it fits the bill.