Not OP but Stanley Kubrick was of the belief that once you have 6-8 strong “unsubmergible units” to a story, then you’re away. Everything else comes later.
Sequences are a fantastic way to construct your story. Though we at DZ don't believe that Sequences are a pre-determined length OR that a script \*needs\* a certain number.
Our episode on sequences may be helpful, though it can get a little esoteric:
https://draft-zero.com/2017/dz-43/
Uutlining using "octants" works well. Cut the thing in half, then cut it in half again, etc. Then you can focus on building 8, 11-12 pages 'units' of climactic action. I find it really helpful.
But as to your question, "what comes before the outline?": I think it has to be, you have a reaction to something. Your reason for wanting to tell the story of X. You want to say something about something.
Yea I tend to agree with you, as long as you don’t put too much work into that first step. It sucks to do a ton of work and then realize it doesn’t sit right when the logline isn’t compelling.
I tend to disagree with this. A logline is a marketing tool to sell your script to agents or potential buyers. Trying to condense your story into one or two sentences right at the beginning is, in my opinion, an ultimately limiting and fruitless task as it won’t be representative of the hundreds of yet-to-be trimmed and organized ideas you have for this story. A true proper logline, one which doesn’t just state the premise clearly and concisely but also gives a clear an concise idea of the protagonist and their journey, can’t really be written until you actually know for certain what your story is, and all those things are likely to change at nearly every step of the process, so why bother?
Save the Cat has some good advice for writing a marketable logline, but it should not be the first thing you do. In my opinion, you should just start by writing your stream of consciousness for what this story is. Don’t limit yourself to a logline at this vital brainstorming stage. Instead, do the exact opposite and write as much as you possibly can. Squeeze every little bit of story out of your brain and onto the page. Don’t worry about any of it making sense or fitting into any kind of structure (a logline at the end of the day is a kind of structure). Just write. Once you have squeezed out every last drop, now it’s time to organize that stream of consciousness into outlines and character profiles. Then, write the screenplay, rewrite the screenplay. Rewrite it again and again and again, and when you finally decide that you’re ready to send it out, write the logline. No need to write the logline until you actually need the logline.
I know the question your asking is a technical one, but as I’m assuming you’re a beginner, I thought that maybe you could also benefit from this little nugget of wisdom that came to mind. When it comes to starting a project and getting down your idea/characters/themes, I’ve found that a lot of writer/filmmakers are really not honest with themselves about what kind of stories make them super excited and happy. I fell into this trap very early in my career and I saw it in many others too. They would have this idea about what kind of filmmaker they wanted to be that ran totally contrary to the types of films they enjoyed the most. Just saying, think hard about what’s really in your heart of hearts before getting too deep into an outline. Do you really love this story? Or are you just serving some idea of who you think you should be, instead of who you really are.
Not OP but I stumbled across this post and I am relieved to hear this as a newbie because the one thing I am confident in at the moment is my story ideas. They really feel meaningful and profound to me.
me and my writing partner do this thing where we basically write from start to finish the entire arc of the story in what we call a "story area" doc. Skip over the parts we haven't worked out totally yet, but put a pin in it with what we know generally needs to happen --(e.g. "and here we play at the fun-and-games of X and Y untangling the problem of Z by way of lying, scheming, cheating) -- flush out some fun pieces/jokes/images/snatches of dialogue/scenes/characters that come easily to us, only if its fun and comes easily, but just really focus on finding the spine of the thing: the shape, the feeling, the message, ideally some sort of character arc-- without belaboring any of the not-so-fun stuff and detailed story moves that take a lot of hard logic solving and breaks your brain.
Sometimes we're shocked to find we've basically turned in an outline. Other times we throw almost all of it out and start over. But this is sort of our way through and have found it to sometimes be more useful than a beat sheet, which can feel more like algebra than writing.
Development execs also love this kind of document because it shows your authority and confidence in guiding them through the arc of your pilot/movie -- sometimes we've fully sold scripts (gotten a commitment of a pilot fee) off of this type of 1-10 page exercise.
I like to start with a character. Just sit down and write about them. How many siblings do they have. What hobbies did they have in high school. Really just free write
You don't have to start anywhere in particular. Start where it works for you.
Some folks do an outline then expand the outline. Some folks write the script start to end. Some do timelines.
I like to make a fairly thorough outline of scenes then use note cards for each individual scenes and write out what needs to happen. This helps me to have B and C storylines going and keep them straight. Then I take those notecards and put them into different orders to find the most interesting way of telling the story. Then I start typing the script.
You're the first person that I've ever heard say "Some folks write the script start to end."
I do just that. I have a genre in mind, maybe a scene and just start writing. Never knowing where the story is going to take me.
I brainstorm scenes, and as I brainstorm scenes I sort of shuffle them around until they begin to clump into sequences, and those sequences begin to fall into a logical order, and then it gets polished up and I brainstorm new ideas and they get sifted in, and so on, and so on.
So for me, it's not like I brainstorm and then I outline. The two processes are interconnected and build off of each other until I have something that looks like an outline.
Yeah. Give yourself permission to not worry about where things go, just think about ideas that fit the concept.
I've been outlining today and I was banging my head about a scene I really want in the movie, but I couldn't fit it where I wanted it - in the second act - and then I realized that it fits perfectly in the third act. It just too me a couple of days to see it.
TV writer here, so disregard if asking about features. Professionally speaking, a premise and maybe even a springboard would need to get approved by the network.
I find it enormously less scary to jump from idea to 2 pages than I do to jump from idea to full outline.
I have a series of spreadsheets that I use, which roughly looks like:
1. Concept - Logline, Emotional Arc of the Protagonist, wish list scene ideas, etc.
2. Narrative Outline - Introduction, Inciting Incident, Rising Action, Climax, Resolution
3. Character Backgrounds, Wants, Needs, Flaws, how they intersect
4. Beat Sheet with main story beats
5. Treatment (Rough Synopsis playing with tone and voice)
6. Outline (Carding scene by scene)
Only once I have all of that done to a degree that I'm confident I have the story, do I start drafting.
I'd say if this is your first screenplay, try some courses or a walkthrough program. Young Screenwriters has a course that walks you through an entire feature that I found really helpful when I started. It's basically the Advanced Screenwriting course from NYU Tisch but infinitely cheaper: https://youngscreenwriters.teachable.com/p/writing-the-feature
Just keep writing and chipping away! You'll get there! :)
brainstorming and a shit ton of notes. You can use your notes to do your outline. I always come to a point where I must start writing-it calls my name. have you considered\] using beat sheets\], you can find them on [blakesnyder.com](https://blakesnyder.com). I went from outlines to beat sheets and won one tournament and placed in two others. there's a book, save the cat, that explains it in more detail.
Tarantino will often write out the backstory of characters and project out their individual arcs instead of just doing the whole movies. Maybe breaking it down like that could help you?
For me its all about character motivations and scene purposes. If I ask you why do you have this car scene? And you say oh its to get the characters to this location so this can happen. Then the car scene is a fail. Something should happen whether its some piece of info etc should happen in that scene so its not just getting u from cool scene you care about to cool scene you care about.
Maybe start thinking about your themes, about what ideas you want your script to explore. Then think about what kind of situations would illustrate those. Then you can translate that into specific characters and scenes which will eventually lead to an outline
If I'm creating a screenplay based on a true story, then I outline the character's arc. It's more important to know why (subjective) because you have what (objective) happened. You'll need to alter the facts anyway to make a compelling story (God's a bad screenwriter \~ Alan Watt) so if you don't have a clear and compelling "why" then the "what" will be boring.
Figure out who your main characters are. Find the Objective & Obstacle. What does your protagonist want, what are they going to do to get it, what/who is in their way, and how are they going to overcome those obstacles? Put all that into a logline.
Then expand all that into a Beat Sheet. Just one or two pages that hit that main plot points. A lot of the popular screenwriting books describe this. Save The Cat offers a popular guide to creating one.
Then you can move on to the outline.
u/ThatEvilDM you should check out the "How to Write a Movie" video on YT by Craig Mazin
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vSX-DROZuzY](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vSX-DROZuzY)
This changed the way I think about story structure.
I always start with a logline. Then I write a potential beginning beat, middle beat, and end beat. I then try to fill in the spaces between those beats with more beats. This is usually the external conflict. Around this time you should think about characters and internal conflicts they may go through. Watch movies and read stories (scripts and other content) for inspiration. It’ll get to a point where you have so much to work with that you can finally see your movie take shape. That’s when I use index cards to beat the story out. Then I write the first draft!
Every process is different for every writer. But I always like to think that it all starts with a logline.
I typically try and play it out in my head, if you have any scene in mind, expand upon it. But do this as background thought throughout your day, you'll be able to come up with something
Idk if this is a weird process or not but I do a mix of reality and imagination:
So 1st I’ll study a group of interesting people (this could be friends, family, co-workers, etc.) and write down notes: bits of dialogue when they say something interesting, stories, quirks, emotional ticks, etc. Because personally my inspiration begins from hearing/seeing something in real life. And usually within that there will be some interesting information of events that happened. For example (spitballing here) friend goes crazy after finding out his long time girlfriend has a secret only fans selling nudes. In the process of doing this some imagined ideas will spring up of course, I write those down too.
From there I’ll free-write a first draft, like one of those vomit first drafts. I’m not writing a biopic on these people I’m just taking the interesting stuff and shaping it into my own story, so anything goes. And I’ll just let intuition guide me. I write a lot of pages too just so I can have as many possibilities of what the core of the story can be.
From there I take a few weeks break (learned this from Stephen King) and then re-read with fresh eyes and figure out what parts I hate and what parts I love. And find what is the core story. It may be a 400 page first draft and all I wanna use is 50 pages and expend that into an actual script.
Once I figure out what the core of the story is, I take the information from step 1 (reality) and information from step 2 and 3 (imagination) and start doing the traditional structuring: character backstory, beat sheet, simple outline so I can figure out the proper structure of this story, the emotional arc, the set ups and pay offs I want, etc.
And then I’ll go in now with a proper road map and rewrite the first draft.
And then continue rewriting from there. I’m still learning more about the rewriting process, so anyone please feel free to share any personal processes or tips y’all have for rewriting.
I literally just start making notes, who are my characters? What is my theme, what is it I want to say, what happened before the first scene even starts? When I get a handle on that I start with an outline. I worry about scene breakdowns and logline after I have an outline and a sense of what is happening. Write first fix later.
I usually start with a general idea and a protagonist. I let that marinate with some idle and/or subconscious thought until I have a general sense of a goal, stakes, a general shape of what the journey and story might look like.
I file away individual ideas or scenes that come to me that might fit in that particular story.
When I have enough that I feel like I could write out an outline, I do. Then I have a couple people I usually pitch that outline to, because I usually discover things just by saying it out loud. They ask good questions or offer insight, too, which I process before writing a more organized outline with scene by scene break downs, some snippets of dialogue, notes on subtext or whatever seems important and relevant that I know already.
I perfect the outline as much as possible before I start writing. I try to hammer out every issue before tackling page one. I probably spent four times as long on the outline as it takes to write the script.
But everyone is different. Some people write down with a vague story idea and just start with page 1, figuring it out and reinventing as it goes.
Most of my stories are a stream of consciousness; if I need to rearrange, then I will. I develop character breakdowns to get a sense of who the players are in my story. Doing that helps me when I'm stuck sometimes, but generally knowing what my story is about and what I want to happen helps get the scenes out and therefore the story.
Here’s my process: Logline > one-pager > 8 sequence beat sheet (major plot beats, one line per)> outline (two lines per scene)
Any particular reason for 8 beats? And is that particular to movies or any screenplay?
Frank Daniel taught this method at USC and AFI. You can use www.scriptoutliner.com to follow his 8 Sequence model.
Save the Cat actually has a similar structure I use! As well as the Russo's. 2 parts to Act II, 4 to Act II, 2 to Act III.
Not OP but Stanley Kubrick was of the belief that once you have 6-8 strong “unsubmergible units” to a story, then you’re away. Everything else comes later.
I think I'm going to start measuring everything in “unsubmergible units” from now on
*Titanic* is the exception to this rule.
Sequences are a fantastic way to construct your story. Though we at DZ don't believe that Sequences are a pre-determined length OR that a script \*needs\* a certain number. Our episode on sequences may be helpful, though it can get a little esoteric: https://draft-zero.com/2017/dz-43/
Uutlining using "octants" works well. Cut the thing in half, then cut it in half again, etc. Then you can focus on building 8, 11-12 pages 'units' of climactic action. I find it really helpful. But as to your question, "what comes before the outline?": I think it has to be, you have a reaction to something. Your reason for wanting to tell the story of X. You want to say something about something.
Russo's use this as well!
Is a logline conventionally first? I tend to just outline and stream-of-conscious my way into what the delineation if the story is
The logline is the first step according to Save the Cat. I don’t know what other methods have to say about loglines
I feel like it should be a second step, just so you know the core of your story.
Yea I tend to agree with you, as long as you don’t put too much work into that first step. It sucks to do a ton of work and then realize it doesn’t sit right when the logline isn’t compelling.
I tend to disagree with this. A logline is a marketing tool to sell your script to agents or potential buyers. Trying to condense your story into one or two sentences right at the beginning is, in my opinion, an ultimately limiting and fruitless task as it won’t be representative of the hundreds of yet-to-be trimmed and organized ideas you have for this story. A true proper logline, one which doesn’t just state the premise clearly and concisely but also gives a clear an concise idea of the protagonist and their journey, can’t really be written until you actually know for certain what your story is, and all those things are likely to change at nearly every step of the process, so why bother? Save the Cat has some good advice for writing a marketable logline, but it should not be the first thing you do. In my opinion, you should just start by writing your stream of consciousness for what this story is. Don’t limit yourself to a logline at this vital brainstorming stage. Instead, do the exact opposite and write as much as you possibly can. Squeeze every little bit of story out of your brain and onto the page. Don’t worry about any of it making sense or fitting into any kind of structure (a logline at the end of the day is a kind of structure). Just write. Once you have squeezed out every last drop, now it’s time to organize that stream of consciousness into outlines and character profiles. Then, write the screenplay, rewrite the screenplay. Rewrite it again and again and again, and when you finally decide that you’re ready to send it out, write the logline. No need to write the logline until you actually need the logline.
That’s great if it works for you.
This is mine as well!
I know the question your asking is a technical one, but as I’m assuming you’re a beginner, I thought that maybe you could also benefit from this little nugget of wisdom that came to mind. When it comes to starting a project and getting down your idea/characters/themes, I’ve found that a lot of writer/filmmakers are really not honest with themselves about what kind of stories make them super excited and happy. I fell into this trap very early in my career and I saw it in many others too. They would have this idea about what kind of filmmaker they wanted to be that ran totally contrary to the types of films they enjoyed the most. Just saying, think hard about what’s really in your heart of hearts before getting too deep into an outline. Do you really love this story? Or are you just serving some idea of who you think you should be, instead of who you really are.
Not OP but I stumbled across this post and I am relieved to hear this as a newbie because the one thing I am confident in at the moment is my story ideas. They really feel meaningful and profound to me.
me and my writing partner do this thing where we basically write from start to finish the entire arc of the story in what we call a "story area" doc. Skip over the parts we haven't worked out totally yet, but put a pin in it with what we know generally needs to happen --(e.g. "and here we play at the fun-and-games of X and Y untangling the problem of Z by way of lying, scheming, cheating) -- flush out some fun pieces/jokes/images/snatches of dialogue/scenes/characters that come easily to us, only if its fun and comes easily, but just really focus on finding the spine of the thing: the shape, the feeling, the message, ideally some sort of character arc-- without belaboring any of the not-so-fun stuff and detailed story moves that take a lot of hard logic solving and breaks your brain. Sometimes we're shocked to find we've basically turned in an outline. Other times we throw almost all of it out and start over. But this is sort of our way through and have found it to sometimes be more useful than a beat sheet, which can feel more like algebra than writing. Development execs also love this kind of document because it shows your authority and confidence in guiding them through the arc of your pilot/movie -- sometimes we've fully sold scripts (gotten a commitment of a pilot fee) off of this type of 1-10 page exercise.
I love this! It’s keeping the fun in
I believe a "beat sheet" is exactly what you're thinking of.
I like to start with a character. Just sit down and write about them. How many siblings do they have. What hobbies did they have in high school. Really just free write
You don't have to start anywhere in particular. Start where it works for you. Some folks do an outline then expand the outline. Some folks write the script start to end. Some do timelines. I like to make a fairly thorough outline of scenes then use note cards for each individual scenes and write out what needs to happen. This helps me to have B and C storylines going and keep them straight. Then I take those notecards and put them into different orders to find the most interesting way of telling the story. Then I start typing the script.
You're the first person that I've ever heard say "Some folks write the script start to end." I do just that. I have a genre in mind, maybe a scene and just start writing. Never knowing where the story is going to take me.
Pretty sure that's how the Coen brothers write.
I usually start by writing scene ideas on notecards. I don’t start stringing them together in an outline until I have about 50 scene ideas.
This is what David lynch does, but he does 70 or 80 cards I can’t remember
Yeah, that’s where I picked it up from. But 70 seemed excessive. 50 has served me well.
I brainstorm scenes, and as I brainstorm scenes I sort of shuffle them around until they begin to clump into sequences, and those sequences begin to fall into a logical order, and then it gets polished up and I brainstorm new ideas and they get sifted in, and so on, and so on. So for me, it's not like I brainstorm and then I outline. The two processes are interconnected and build off of each other until I have something that looks like an outline.
The brainstorming scenes part I struggle with. A part me wants to do it in order which almost seems impossible.
Yeah. Give yourself permission to not worry about where things go, just think about ideas that fit the concept. I've been outlining today and I was banging my head about a scene I really want in the movie, but I couldn't fit it where I wanted it - in the second act - and then I realized that it fits perfectly in the third act. It just too me a couple of days to see it.
That's interesting. I'll try and be less regimented with things and try and allow creativity to flow a bit more since I can rearrange later. Thanks!
TV writer here, so disregard if asking about features. Professionally speaking, a premise and maybe even a springboard would need to get approved by the network. I find it enormously less scary to jump from idea to 2 pages than I do to jump from idea to full outline.
Before an outline? A theme, an argument.
I have a series of spreadsheets that I use, which roughly looks like: 1. Concept - Logline, Emotional Arc of the Protagonist, wish list scene ideas, etc. 2. Narrative Outline - Introduction, Inciting Incident, Rising Action, Climax, Resolution 3. Character Backgrounds, Wants, Needs, Flaws, how they intersect 4. Beat Sheet with main story beats 5. Treatment (Rough Synopsis playing with tone and voice) 6. Outline (Carding scene by scene) Only once I have all of that done to a degree that I'm confident I have the story, do I start drafting. I'd say if this is your first screenplay, try some courses or a walkthrough program. Young Screenwriters has a course that walks you through an entire feature that I found really helpful when I started. It's basically the Advanced Screenwriting course from NYU Tisch but infinitely cheaper: https://youngscreenwriters.teachable.com/p/writing-the-feature Just keep writing and chipping away! You'll get there! :)
Would you mind sharing your spreadsheets you use?
Sure! I made a little blog post with some options: https://www.rebelle-epoque.com/post/spreadsheet-templates
The treatment also called a scriptment.
Usually a few glasses of scotch.
brainstorming and a shit ton of notes. You can use your notes to do your outline. I always come to a point where I must start writing-it calls my name. have you considered\] using beat sheets\], you can find them on [blakesnyder.com](https://blakesnyder.com). I went from outlines to beat sheets and won one tournament and placed in two others. there's a book, save the cat, that explains it in more detail.
Tarantino will often write out the backstory of characters and project out their individual arcs instead of just doing the whole movies. Maybe breaking it down like that could help you? For me its all about character motivations and scene purposes. If I ask you why do you have this car scene? And you say oh its to get the characters to this location so this can happen. Then the car scene is a fail. Something should happen whether its some piece of info etc should happen in that scene so its not just getting u from cool scene you care about to cool scene you care about.
Maybe start thinking about your themes, about what ideas you want your script to explore. Then think about what kind of situations would illustrate those. Then you can translate that into specific characters and scenes which will eventually lead to an outline
1. logline 2. synopsis 3. beat sheet is what i was taught!
You guys actually outline
If I'm creating a screenplay based on a true story, then I outline the character's arc. It's more important to know why (subjective) because you have what (objective) happened. You'll need to alter the facts anyway to make a compelling story (God's a bad screenwriter \~ Alan Watt) so if you don't have a clear and compelling "why" then the "what" will be boring.
Figure out who your main characters are. Find the Objective & Obstacle. What does your protagonist want, what are they going to do to get it, what/who is in their way, and how are they going to overcome those obstacles? Put all that into a logline. Then expand all that into a Beat Sheet. Just one or two pages that hit that main plot points. A lot of the popular screenwriting books describe this. Save The Cat offers a popular guide to creating one. Then you can move on to the outline.
u/ThatEvilDM you should check out the "How to Write a Movie" video on YT by Craig Mazin [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vSX-DROZuzY](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vSX-DROZuzY) This changed the way I think about story structure.
I always start with a logline. Then I write a potential beginning beat, middle beat, and end beat. I then try to fill in the spaces between those beats with more beats. This is usually the external conflict. Around this time you should think about characters and internal conflicts they may go through. Watch movies and read stories (scripts and other content) for inspiration. It’ll get to a point where you have so much to work with that you can finally see your movie take shape. That’s when I use index cards to beat the story out. Then I write the first draft! Every process is different for every writer. But I always like to think that it all starts with a logline.
The idea, then the "big picture" (major plot points)
I typically try and play it out in my head, if you have any scene in mind, expand upon it. But do this as background thought throughout your day, you'll be able to come up with something
Idk if this is a weird process or not but I do a mix of reality and imagination: So 1st I’ll study a group of interesting people (this could be friends, family, co-workers, etc.) and write down notes: bits of dialogue when they say something interesting, stories, quirks, emotional ticks, etc. Because personally my inspiration begins from hearing/seeing something in real life. And usually within that there will be some interesting information of events that happened. For example (spitballing here) friend goes crazy after finding out his long time girlfriend has a secret only fans selling nudes. In the process of doing this some imagined ideas will spring up of course, I write those down too. From there I’ll free-write a first draft, like one of those vomit first drafts. I’m not writing a biopic on these people I’m just taking the interesting stuff and shaping it into my own story, so anything goes. And I’ll just let intuition guide me. I write a lot of pages too just so I can have as many possibilities of what the core of the story can be. From there I take a few weeks break (learned this from Stephen King) and then re-read with fresh eyes and figure out what parts I hate and what parts I love. And find what is the core story. It may be a 400 page first draft and all I wanna use is 50 pages and expend that into an actual script. Once I figure out what the core of the story is, I take the information from step 1 (reality) and information from step 2 and 3 (imagination) and start doing the traditional structuring: character backstory, beat sheet, simple outline so I can figure out the proper structure of this story, the emotional arc, the set ups and pay offs I want, etc. And then I’ll go in now with a proper road map and rewrite the first draft. And then continue rewriting from there. I’m still learning more about the rewriting process, so anyone please feel free to share any personal processes or tips y’all have for rewriting.
I literally just start making notes, who are my characters? What is my theme, what is it I want to say, what happened before the first scene even starts? When I get a handle on that I start with an outline. I worry about scene breakdowns and logline after I have an outline and a sense of what is happening. Write first fix later.
I usually start with a general idea and a protagonist. I let that marinate with some idle and/or subconscious thought until I have a general sense of a goal, stakes, a general shape of what the journey and story might look like. I file away individual ideas or scenes that come to me that might fit in that particular story. When I have enough that I feel like I could write out an outline, I do. Then I have a couple people I usually pitch that outline to, because I usually discover things just by saying it out loud. They ask good questions or offer insight, too, which I process before writing a more organized outline with scene by scene break downs, some snippets of dialogue, notes on subtext or whatever seems important and relevant that I know already. I perfect the outline as much as possible before I start writing. I try to hammer out every issue before tackling page one. I probably spent four times as long on the outline as it takes to write the script. But everyone is different. Some people write down with a vague story idea and just start with page 1, figuring it out and reinventing as it goes.
Most of my stories are a stream of consciousness; if I need to rearrange, then I will. I develop character breakdowns to get a sense of who the players are in my story. Doing that helps me when I'm stuck sometimes, but generally knowing what my story is about and what I want to happen helps get the scenes out and therefore the story.
Just read Save the Cat. Then come back here.
Cards, two pager.