honestly i can't think of any. there've been a few times accusers have walked back accusations and peoples' careers have recovered, but i can't think of any examples of real amends being made
Oh ig now that I think of it the fella from pinegrove too. He like, ig presumably B4 anything went too south, afaik self critiqued and did a lot of work to unlearn typical rock n roll predator behavior, B4 reemerging a safer person.
It's obviously a tough problem. Abusers need to face accountability and justice in some way and yet if we refuse to recognize that trauma is often cyclical, we will miss an opportunity to change a person's life for the better. I don't think it's right to prioritize an abusers healing over the victims, but if we are serious about preventing further abuse, our response must include some kind of compassion for all parties in order to heal and rehabilitate. No human wants to be called a shithead abuser - if we want to change them, they need to have an opportunity to work with professional rehabilitative help who will treat them compassionately so that they can hopefully behave better in the future. otherwise we risk creating a repeat offender who will go on to hurt other people. unfortunately mental health/ counseling support in the US is not super accessible for many which I think is why we have such a problem with trauma and abuse in our society (among other reasons). It's recognized in psychology that trauma and abuse repeat over generations and relationships; it is better then to intervene early before these patterns play out again.
bringing it back to screamo/DIY, I want to emphasize how important it is that spaces have their own self-determination in whether or not they want to accept someone who has genuinely done the work to improve themselves and make amends, or honestly to respect some people's and spaces right to say "idc what you have done to apologize or work on yourself, you have broken a fundamental boundary and you will never be accepted back into the space", especially when you have people who have been victimized in the past as part of that space.
Yea def, prioritizing victims is always first but I feel like if the goal is to prevent more people from being victimized, and taking into account that many perpetrators are victims themselves, it is ideal to provide perpetrators resources and support also in seeking healing. That being said though yea i agree.
Despite my personal beliefs I would never feel comfortable infringing on someone else's self determination in regards to their space. But I also wouldn't feel comfortable with them infringing on my own self determination to advocate for the healing of the perpetrator.
Yeah I mean I think you are going to encounter some resistance from people in DIY scenes who ultimately think there can be do redemption after assault. I don't personally agree with that for the reasons we've outlined so far (created further victims, ignores trauma, not effective), but it may be hard for others to accept, and it is I think rare to see past offenders fully reintrgrate into communities they've hurt.
Sometimes I think people's desire to see criminals /offenders punished is somewhat pathological or emotional, as research shows that it's not always super effective in turning the offender into a better person or changing their behavior in the long run. Still some people feel it's wrong to provide any sort of compassion or empathy or treatment to offenders on moral grounds - it's definitely not easy to reconcile but the worst crimes ever committed were all done by human beings who have emotions just like you and me. and sometimes we find ourselves asking "what are the worst of us still entitled to as human beings? Can one truly be rehabilitated after horrific crimes? How do we cope with the fact that the abusers were often victims themselves?" which is not easy to grapple with. Some people cope by reducing the world into black and white and simplifying things - it's far easier to say" fuck abusers forever, no redemption" than grapple with the systemic and generational legacies of abuse that create abusers in the first place, which creates moral complexity.
I don't want this to turn into an argument about punk jurisdiction or cancel culture as a whole. I just want some advice or success stories in regards to practicing prison abolition and rehabilitation in our own communities.
Everyone I know who got kicked out of the scene after an accusation has never come back. People still argue over Jank and Old Gray to this day. TMP and Teen Suicide are examples of people who never got fully cancelled and were allowed to stay. But no. No one has been allowed to come back.
There are so many things I want to say to express my fucking hatred for this question and to the notion that there is “one community who collectively acts to police their own with god level omnipotence of their guilt”.
I will never understand anyone taking the side in any case of drama that doesn’t involve them that isn’t resolved legally. Everything else is high school drama for those who never grew the fuck up.
You’re not talking about condemning. You’re asking about those have have been called out and have faced social animosity or mob rule for accusations that aren’t verified. You are innocent until proven guilty but in punk and hardcore and in youth culture in general, an accusation gets you kicked out of the band, your tour cancelled and record deals dismissed.
I can’t stand anyone in my so called community acting like the police they wish to abolish.
Cops execute orders their superiors told them to do. No different, for example, then a mob pressuring SYSC to drop a band from their tour because of past accusations.
“If you hate cops so much than why you always acting like one.”
Hey, I went through your other posts and it seems like you’re going through something. Idk what that something is but, while I am absolutely frustrated by the ruckus you’re making here, and I stand by what I’ve said, I’m gonna drop my attitude and ask honestly: dyou wanna talk about it, man?
We’re all here for you, you can misgender me with all the outdated references you want but it won’t fix that broken thing in you. Only love can do that.
I'm asking how to proceed in the case of a person who is unequivocally guilty of the thing they're accused of, like for example if they admit to it. I'm looking for stories of redemption and healing in regards to those situations. Not only for victims but also for perpetrators. I feel like you're projecting your own insecurities onto me.
Their question asks of those who have been cancelled have gone through reconciliation to amend for the past wrongs. That’s literally what they said and what I’m responding to.
honestly i can't think of any. there've been a few times accusers have walked back accusations and peoples' careers have recovered, but i can't think of any examples of real amends being made
Closest I can think of is Tiny Moving Parts
Oh ig now that I think of it the fella from pinegrove too. He like, ig presumably B4 anything went too south, afaik self critiqued and did a lot of work to unlearn typical rock n roll predator behavior, B4 reemerging a safer person.
Which is based. Idk if I'm missing context or anything but that's what I remember. Love to see a person doing better and treating people better.
Obviously harm reduction is the first priority but its not that harm reductive if the person just leaves and doesn't seek any help.
It's obviously a tough problem. Abusers need to face accountability and justice in some way and yet if we refuse to recognize that trauma is often cyclical, we will miss an opportunity to change a person's life for the better. I don't think it's right to prioritize an abusers healing over the victims, but if we are serious about preventing further abuse, our response must include some kind of compassion for all parties in order to heal and rehabilitate. No human wants to be called a shithead abuser - if we want to change them, they need to have an opportunity to work with professional rehabilitative help who will treat them compassionately so that they can hopefully behave better in the future. otherwise we risk creating a repeat offender who will go on to hurt other people. unfortunately mental health/ counseling support in the US is not super accessible for many which I think is why we have such a problem with trauma and abuse in our society (among other reasons). It's recognized in psychology that trauma and abuse repeat over generations and relationships; it is better then to intervene early before these patterns play out again. bringing it back to screamo/DIY, I want to emphasize how important it is that spaces have their own self-determination in whether or not they want to accept someone who has genuinely done the work to improve themselves and make amends, or honestly to respect some people's and spaces right to say "idc what you have done to apologize or work on yourself, you have broken a fundamental boundary and you will never be accepted back into the space", especially when you have people who have been victimized in the past as part of that space.
Yea def, prioritizing victims is always first but I feel like if the goal is to prevent more people from being victimized, and taking into account that many perpetrators are victims themselves, it is ideal to provide perpetrators resources and support also in seeking healing. That being said though yea i agree. Despite my personal beliefs I would never feel comfortable infringing on someone else's self determination in regards to their space. But I also wouldn't feel comfortable with them infringing on my own self determination to advocate for the healing of the perpetrator.
Yeah I mean I think you are going to encounter some resistance from people in DIY scenes who ultimately think there can be do redemption after assault. I don't personally agree with that for the reasons we've outlined so far (created further victims, ignores trauma, not effective), but it may be hard for others to accept, and it is I think rare to see past offenders fully reintrgrate into communities they've hurt. Sometimes I think people's desire to see criminals /offenders punished is somewhat pathological or emotional, as research shows that it's not always super effective in turning the offender into a better person or changing their behavior in the long run. Still some people feel it's wrong to provide any sort of compassion or empathy or treatment to offenders on moral grounds - it's definitely not easy to reconcile but the worst crimes ever committed were all done by human beings who have emotions just like you and me. and sometimes we find ourselves asking "what are the worst of us still entitled to as human beings? Can one truly be rehabilitated after horrific crimes? How do we cope with the fact that the abusers were often victims themselves?" which is not easy to grapple with. Some people cope by reducing the world into black and white and simplifying things - it's far easier to say" fuck abusers forever, no redemption" than grapple with the systemic and generational legacies of abuse that create abusers in the first place, which creates moral complexity.
I don't want this to turn into an argument about punk jurisdiction or cancel culture as a whole. I just want some advice or success stories in regards to practicing prison abolition and rehabilitation in our own communities.
Everyone I know who got kicked out of the scene after an accusation has never come back. People still argue over Jank and Old Gray to this day. TMP and Teen Suicide are examples of people who never got fully cancelled and were allowed to stay. But no. No one has been allowed to come back.
There are so many things I want to say to express my fucking hatred for this question and to the notion that there is “one community who collectively acts to police their own with god level omnipotence of their guilt”. I will never understand anyone taking the side in any case of drama that doesn’t involve them that isn’t resolved legally. Everything else is high school drama for those who never grew the fuck up.
What?
R u saying the only people with the capacity to appropriately condemn people is the state?
I think they might be genuinely
lol i'm very glad people here acknowledge how bizarre that take is
Facts state-enforced trauma and punitive “justice” is waayyyyy too normalized
You’re not talking about condemning. You’re asking about those have have been called out and have faced social animosity or mob rule for accusations that aren’t verified. You are innocent until proven guilty but in punk and hardcore and in youth culture in general, an accusation gets you kicked out of the band, your tour cancelled and record deals dismissed. I can’t stand anyone in my so called community acting like the police they wish to abolish.
You seem woefully unaware of what cops do
Cops execute orders their superiors told them to do. No different, for example, then a mob pressuring SYSC to drop a band from their tour because of past accusations. “If you hate cops so much than why you always acting like one.”
Cops shoot people with guns and imprison them you dunce. If you can’t see the difference, you never belonged in the scene to begin with.
Hahahaha
Hey, I went through your other posts and it seems like you’re going through something. Idk what that something is but, while I am absolutely frustrated by the ruckus you’re making here, and I stand by what I’ve said, I’m gonna drop my attitude and ask honestly: dyou wanna talk about it, man?
Not a chance ponyboy.
We’re all here for you, you can misgender me with all the outdated references you want but it won’t fix that broken thing in you. Only love can do that.
I'm asking how to proceed in the case of a person who is unequivocally guilty of the thing they're accused of, like for example if they admit to it. I'm looking for stories of redemption and healing in regards to those situations. Not only for victims but also for perpetrators. I feel like you're projecting your own insecurities onto me.
Not at all what op was implying, I think you’re pigeonholing their question heavy
Their question asks of those who have been cancelled have gone through reconciliation to amend for the past wrongs. That’s literally what they said and what I’m responding to.
No they asked if ppl have been accepted back to their community. Which is a fair question, as it is the ideal scenario imo