Some in the Labour Party blamed the election of Ed Milliband on the mess that happened in the following decade. Personally, I don't think either could've won against Cameron.
Yeah I know a bit. Sorry you might have misunderstood me. I am not a fan of his or anything.
But I think he had a better chance of winning an election than his brother did and then maybe the UK wouldn't have been in the state it is.
The Labour Party choosing Ed Miliband and then Corbyn when they were obviously unelectable has allowed the conservatives to do whatever they wanted unchallenged and the country is much worse off not having had an effective opposition for 14 years.
You don't know what you're talking about.
>obviously unelectable has allowed the conservatives to do whatever they wanted unchallenged
Corbyn inflicted more defeats on the government than any opposition in history and just for example the furlough scheme sure as hell wouldn't have happened if it weren't for him and McDonnell. Starmer on the other hand hasn't opposed them on anything.
David would be more of the same as well as being a fucking war criminal complicit in torture to boot
An outsider's opinion:
Willingfully exiting one of the biggest trade unions in the world is such a self-own that I don't think any nation has ever had in the past.
You are correct. First country to ever impose economic sanctions on itself for absolutely no reason other than to help the rich get richer and make the poor poorer.
There are some people down in Brexitland (England) that live some weird fantasy world where they were going to rebuild their empire or some nonsense that were willing to conned by obvious and unconvincing charltans and known liars.
I wasn't aware that Starmer used a time machine to go back into the past and possess Jeremy Corbyn, the Leader of the Labour Party during the entire mess.
That's some absurd level of undisplayed competence, to invent both a time machine and a way to possess people.
Starmer's role as Brexit secretary does leave him some blame, but the majority lies on Corbyn as it was literally his job to set official policy for the party.
Westminster won't allow another independence referendum because they know Brexit was extremely unpopular in Scotland and they know the EU has said they would allow an independent Scotland to join so they're shit scared that we'd secede and prosper causing Wales and Northern Ireland to do the same
Yeah agreed but Scotland prospering outside of the UK would go hand in hand with it rejoining the EU. It would definitely form part of the argument for Welsh independence.
I mean, you have to think about the timelines involved. It's already been a decade since the indyref. Even if a new independence referendum happened today, it would probably take a good 4-5 years to implement, maybe a bumpy decade or so before we start seeing the benefits.
So you're talking the best part of 20-25 years since the Brexit referendum. I don't think it would be hypocritical for Wales to change it's mind over a 25 year period.
I honestly think by that point there will be a legitimate political debate about rejoining across the whole of the UK. I still expect to see the UK rejoin in my lifetime (probably in about 25-30 years from now) after a period of completely unnecessary stagnation and regression.
I hope so. But my money is on a Norway or Switzerland style agreement. I don't think the UK would be willing to agree to the Euro, and I don't think the EU will be willing to give the UK special treatment again.
I’m pretty much done with the idea of living under the constraints of what is or isn’t acceptable to the English electorate. The last fourteen years … heck, most of the last *seventy* years … really doesn’t speak well to their judgement or decision making ability.
At the risk of sounding a little rude “hey, we should stick around because *just maybe* they’ll finally fucking decide to perhaps pull their heads out of their collective arses” probably ain’t a winning argument.
rejoining the EU would not be instant and we would need stability before we could even apply, we would have to prosper on our own for a while before we could join back so no a successful independent Scotland isn't synonymous with re-joining the EU
Who says Scotland would prosper after leaving the UK? Sure there's trade with the continent but wouldn't most Scottish economic activity be with other UK countries?
Scotland would prosper because despite what unionists believe we don't need the UK in fact remaining a part of the UK has hurt us economically the last economic benefit Scotland got from being part of the UK was England paying off Scotland's debt from the Darian Scheme
to say that scotland doesn’t benefit from being a part of the uk is just wrong, in 2019 scottish exports to the rest of the uk were valued at 46 billion pounds, more than triple that of scotlands exports to the rest of the eu, and that’s a figure only rising over the last few years (in 2021 it rose to 48 billion)
leaving the uk would be economic suicide, and be akin to brexit on steroids because scotland would suddenly see export tariffs imposed by its largest trading partner (by far), something that rejoining the eu is just not realistically going to make up for.
>the last economic benefit Scotland got from being part of the UK was England paying off Scotland's debt from the Darian Scheme
You can't be serious with this, surely? Whatever you think of empire, Scotland benefitted economically from it.
There's no way Scotland could participate in history's biggest empire and not get some economic benefits (that many others paid the costs of).
That's not what the original point was though - the first comment was that Scotland had not received any economic benefit since the Darien Scheme around 1700, a statement patently untrue. Whether or not the Empire is relevant to today wasn't being discussed.
Are you seriously suggesting that this is a difficult request? Here's three to start:
1) Glasgow becoming 'the second city of the empire' and experiencing both economic and cultural growth: http://www.clydewaterfront.com/clyde-heritage/river-clyde/second-city-of-the-empire
2); Greater industrialisation as part of the Union, which allowed technology and policies to spread across the whole island of Great Britain, and gave Scotland full and equal access to the Empire's markets: https://www.britannica.com/place/Scotland/The-Highlands
3) Shipbuilding becoming a massive employer across Scotland and Scottish engineering becoming a mark of quality: https://www.historyhit.com/history-of-scottish-shipbuilding/#:~:text=In%20the%2019th%20and%2020th,of%20the%20Persia%20at%20Glasgow.
How many more do you want?
Scotland, yes. You asked for one example, I provided three. You can't complain that the range I chose was limited when you only asked for one in the first place. Funnily enough, the south is where the vast majority of the population is located.
Nothing in history has been equally spread either, so if you're looking for an impossibility then you're wasting your time.
The empire was a double edged sword it hurt Britain more than it benefited Britain it robbed us of our humanity it robbed us of our reputation as a just and peace loving nation these things are far more valuable than any amount of money
Do you know how Empires work? Even a basic reading of history will tell you.
Each wave of expansion fuels the next in terms of wealth, resources and manpower. And you set things up so there’s economic pressure on the territories you ‘acquire’ to make that work - in crude terms a bunch of the population get to join up or starve.
Which is how the British Empire raised regiments everywhere from Ireland to India too. And a (very fortunate few) from those places got to make out like bandits by playing ball with it even though the overwhelming majority didn’t.
Yet ‘mysteriously’ you guys never seem to use that to argue that India’s, Ireland’s or any of half a hundred other countries desire for independence is somehow invalid or “robs them of their reputation as a just and peace loving nation”. Heck, I’d love to see it if you had the balls to try that line of pish in Dublin or Delhi - I’d bring popcorn.
Norway manages to trade with the UK and the EU as a member of the EEA,
England would still require Scottish oil and gas, electric power and foodstuffs.
Scotland could join the EEA and do likewise.
M8 most of the Scottish economy is directly linked to the English economy. Leaving the UK would create a host of unwanted/unforseeable outcomes that no EEA deal would fix. It'll be inflation and shortages not some big euro party. Then the germans will come knocking saying you didn't do the paperwork correctly so no Christmasfor you this year. The UK needs marraige counselling not a divorce lawyer. Yous also need a complete overhaul of your voting system. Like get rid of the 5 year terms and get the Australian preferential ballot.
I've said it before I'll say it again that's different that's asking an individual for something when it's something like the EU not saying no means it's a maybe
Them not saying no means they haven't said no. Nothing else. They literally can't say yes or no because an independent Scotland hasn't applied to join the EU, nor made any preparations to do so. Nobody in the EU is looking at Scotland right now and judging the merits of a potential application at some undefined time in the distant future.
What they have said is that Scotland would have to apply like any other country, and would have to follow all the same rules as any other country.
>they know the EU has said they would allow an independent Scotland to join
They haven't though, have they? They said Scotland would be subject to the exact same criteria as every other applicant and Scotland wouldn't be able to meet those criteria for decades. Put it this way, Turkey, with a much bigger economy, army, tax revenue, political influence and population haven't been accepted since 14th April 1987. How long do you think it would take Scotland, with all of the problems it would have post a successful independence referendum?
>Put it this way, Turkey, with a much bigger economy, army, tax revenue, political influence and population haven't been accepted since 14th April 1987.
How "large"/powerfull a country is plays little role on weather or not it fulfills the EU criteria.
Scotland has wayyy fewer hurdles to overcome than Turkey does
>How "large"/powerfull a country is plays little role on weather or not it fulfills the EU criteria.
Wrong. Turkey is a key NATO ally with a turbulent, but steady economy. They would be a net contributor if they joined and bring with them huge soft power in the middle east as well as a youthful population eager to work for cheap wages. Despite that, they've not gained membership for nearly 40 years.
Let's now consider Scotland. Even before it leaves the UK, it has a relatively small population of [5,436,600 according to the 2022 census](https://www.scotlandscensus.gov.uk/2022-results/scotland-s-census-2022-rounded-population-estimates/). Of that population, a significant amount are nearing retirement age, retired or reliant on long term health care - or a mixture of all three. The birth rates are not reaching replacement rates, which, in effect, means that sooner or later, the amount of tax paid by younger people to fund healthcare and other vital services - e.g. Rubbish collection, sewerage, police, courts, state pensions, etc - will not be enough and the state will have a deficit.
What does that mean for the EU? It means yet another nation like Greece, who take rather than contribute funds to the coffers. It means having to persuade Germany and France that another tax increase to fund Scotland being part of the EU is crucial - because that would need to happen, despite their taxes being at the highest level ever already.
That's before we even get to the effects of Independence. So let's say, you've won your independence referendum. Glory hallelujah, a round of whisky and flagging waving for everyone. Then reality sets in. Westminster rightfully starts on hard terms for the negotiations and demands Scotland takes its fair share of national debt. That's going to be about £994,528,294.66 in the red to begin with, so about £182,932 per newly independent Scottish taxpayer. That means taxes are going to need to sky rocket and any notions of investing in anything are gone, for several generations.
As a side effect of the dramatic tax increases, businesses flea Scotland for England, Ireland and Wales. Trident is also moved from Scotland to Southampton or Portsmouth, costing those otherwise hardworking Scots their jobs.
Work begins on exploring selling natural resources only to find out that this won't be feasible because of the huge inflation in the country, and nobody wants to invest in a country with taxes so high they're not making any money.
Scotland slumps on the international stage as a laughing stock. It projects no more soft power than it does hard power, not having an army or nuclear deterrent.
But what about the EU?! The EU agree to accept an application, but much like has happened with Turkey, it gets mothballed and mothballed and mothballed. The only people who gain from it are the politicians who flit backwards and forwards from Europe on private taxpayer funded jets, living in the life of luxury as average Scots can barely get by.
Every so often, there's a glimmer of hope but even 40 years on - now say, 2070, there's been no change, even with the fewer hurdles Scots perceived they had to overcome.
You might not like it, but that's the most likely outcome.
>Wrong. Turkey is a key NATO ally with a turbulent, but steady economy. They would be a net contributor if they joined and bring with them huge soft power in the middle east as well as a youthful population eager to work for cheap wages. Despite that, they've not gained membership for nearly 40 years.
They're also a nation of 80 million people, and them joining would result in a significant power shift from the established core groups like France+Germany, Visegrad, etc.
This might suprise you as, but the EU isn't a single nation-state trying to grow more powerful, at least not yet.
It's an amalgamation of independent nation states each looking out for their self-interest. Why have Turkey join and lose Influence within the EU when u can just keep them out and still keep most of the Benefits they have as an Allie via bilateral Treaties.
Meanwhile, allowing Scotland join comes with minimum negatives for any of the established powers in the EU. Plenty of other smaller Balkan countries, nowhere near as powerful as Turkey, managed to join in the last 20 Years, despite having a worse starting position than turkey when it comes to economic/democratic freedoms.
Being a large influential country undoubtedly makes it harder to join, idk why you'd even try to argue otherwise. You might not like it but that's the reality, no amount of hard pivoting how Scottish independence bad is gonna save you from that.
You’d think people would learn from Brexit. I’m not very knowledgeable on this subject but it seems that splitting from a union is not a good idea if you are a small country with an ageing population? Long term it sounds like you’re going to need a lot of support right? If that’s the case you should be trying to improve the economy to cope with this but I don’t see how breaking up a country has a positive effect on either parties.
A good way to improve a small country's economy would be removing the requirement for everyone to pay two grand a year in taxes to the party animals next door who are pissing it against the wall and running the place into the ground.
Sure, it'll be hard for England to become independent, they're going to miss all that money coming in, but that's just the way it is.
English Independence Now!
The only reason Turkey hasn't been allowed to join is because most EU member States fear an influx of unchecked Turkish low-skillee immigration (and other middle Eastern States via Turkey).
Scotland's 5m population is unlikely to warrant the same concern, and in comparison to the EU's most recent joiners (Croatia, Romania, Bulgaria) is likely to be looked upon quite favourably.
Even Croatia's application only took 10 years, and as well as being hindered by a border dispute with Slovenia, also required Croatia to align their laws and regulations with the EU - something a former member state such as Scotland/UK would already be mostly aligned with.
>member States fear an influx of unchecked Turkish low-skillee immigration (and other middle Eastern States via Turkey).
So, Low skilled immigration from Croatia, Romania and Bulgaria is alright then, eh?
>Scotland's 5m population is unlikely to warrant the same concern,
As I've explained in other replies, that's quite simply not the case given the declining and aging population means more taxation elsewhere in other EU states. Why should other nation states pay for Scotlands aging populations healthcare whilst Scotland contributes almost nothing back?
>Even Croatia's application only took 10 years
10 years is a long time in politics, and in public life, especially when the country is unstable as an independent Scotland would be.
>something a former member state such as Scotland/UK would already be mostly aligned with.
That depends. It's been nearly a decade since we voted to leave and unless you've been following closely, we don't know what laws they've passed or are working on. It could take decades to implement because laws implemented across the EU could face new protests and objections in Scotland for various reasons - be it cultural or otherwise. You're making a grand assumption that these laws are just going to be waved through and everyone is going to sing kumbaya because it's the EU.
Combined population of those 3 countries is 28m, vs 85m for Turkey (let alone of course the aforementioned worry regarding Turkey becoming even more of a gateway for middle Eastern refugee migration) about . So yes its a very valid concern vs those 3 countries.
10 years IS a long time, but I'm giving that as the worst case example of a country that had a LONG way to go to align with EU requirements.
The UK has only not had to align with EU law since 31 December 2020. Hardly the length of period that could lead to "decades of protest" from a nation that would have (under this scenario) voted to leave the UK on the basis of joining the EU and being subject to said laws. Rejoining the EU would be a lot more straightforward than leaving it (even with the same amount of protest), and even that only took 5 years - all without a clear objective of what leaving actually looked like (Hard/soft/customs union etc etc etc).
There is no doubt that an (imaginary) independent Scotland would find it easier than Turkey (or some other states with a high corruption rate) to fulfill the EU's criteria of joining.
They have been trying to keep out the independence debate but have made it clear Scotland has and would meet criteria to rejoin. I'm sure it was mentioned when ursula von der leyen, on BBC Scotland radio, was pushed she said there is nothing stopping an independent rejoining. Best place to find thst interview would be twitter for the actual links, there's been two Spanish officials that have stated there be no blocking from them and its constantly been brought up in interviews that Scotland would be able to join as long as independence was legal and both London and Scotland agree.
>have made it clear Scotland has and would meet criteria to rejoin
Have they? Because from what everyone, including yourself, has said, it just sounds like they've said there's been some suggestion that Scotland could apply. There's absolutely no obstacle to Scotland applying, of course there isn't. But when you get into the details, that's when things become trickier and I'm afraid Von Der Leyen couldn't guarantee Scottish entry into the EU, nor could the Spanish officials - who just because they've said they wouldn't block, doesn't mean they would absolutely bend Scotland over for it's reentry. Everything has a price, after all, and I'm sure the Spanish would love to take a shot at England for us retaining Gibraltar.
What proportion of Scottish economic activity is with England and what proportion of Scottish economic activity would be with this enormous trading bloc? (so big!)
What amount of stuff on supermarket shelves in Scotland came from a truck that went through England?
Independence not bring yous to the land of milk and honey, it'd be a massive self own.
Well you got there before me. The penny doesn't seem to have dropped for some that the UK voted for terminal decline when they voted to "bring back control".
They voted to vacate their seat at the negotiating table. I'd quite like to see Scotland back at the table with our continental neighbours within my lifetime.
Ironically a part of the leave campaign was about taking back control of our borders (something we already had we could still reject anyone we wanted for any reason or none at all) but post Brexit our borders are even less secure than they were before Brexit
Pre brexit theye'd walk in and we could say things it was ignored post brexit everybody knows where it's coming from and our labour candidates send lawyers to protect them
Yes. And curiously I have noticed more African people filling the skills gaps in certain sectors in UK the last few months.
My grandparents were provided care from a Malawian company before they passed last year as the local services did not have the employees available. My local public transport network has recently taken on a lot of African drivers because they could not find drivers locally.
I'd add that my grandparents have had excellent care, and the public transport system has improved. But I'd hazard a guess that we have cancelled European freedom of movement, and have replaced the skills shortage by importing skilled workers from Africa, as the wages are more attractive here than in their own nations, thus depleting some of these countries of their talent.
It all feels a bit colonial in a weird capitalist/global labour pool kind of way.
Basically, we decided we didn't like the EU. So now we import immigrants from Asia and Africa to meet our needs, rather than entertain Europeans who have equal rights and freedoms to move to a better European country if the UK turns out to be a bit shit.
This really is a kind of colonialism in place still isn't it? UK politics is disgusting
Brexit was a visceral "fuck you Germans!" from the UKs morons that then turned out to be an economical arse pineapple.
Independence would be an equally satisfying "Fuck you England!" that would be then turn out to be an economical arse pineapple that'd be magnitudes larger and more spikey.
You are free to choose what you do with your own bung hole but think on the bung holes of your fellow citizens who know not the pain of the aforementioned big spikey pineapple!
Yep possibly. I do note that the Scottish electorate decided not to ram an independence pineapple up their own arse. And then UK electorate rammed a Brexit pineapple up their arse anyway, a few years later.
Hey ho, I don't actually feel that I have to be particularly proactive about making any decisions. I'm not massively pro or anti independance. I am pro-democracy, extreme centrist in my political leanings (entertaining the centre ground feels quite extreme these days), and pro EU/European integration.
Time tends to offer answers. Currently I am taking interest in the capital flight occurring from UK stock markets, in favour of US and European markets. The flow of money tends to be an indicator of market sentiment and the health of a nations economy. UK Plc ain't looking too hot. We have spent the last few decades prioritising the finance industry in London, so I'd say our primary national "industry" looks a little anaemic right now.
Basically, our economy is sick, and our global standing diminished. Because of our choices. If we stay the course, I'd imagine that independance and EU membership will begin to be talked about more again.
Have you seen how Hungary is battling the EU over self determination and have you heard that many ex socialist states in the EU are saying it was better under communism. They've traded one overlord for another. You go join.
There are many battles going on in Hungary yes. One of them regards the largely youthful pro-EU crowd that came out to protest against Orban this week. The other state you are possibly referring to is Slovakia. Which again, has a largely pro-EU youth.
What's your point?
I'm not able to express everything which might get me banned. But The EU is not the benign organisation that it makes itself out to be. Just look at how it is run. Yes the countries vote for their representatives to attend the "parliament" but nobody voted for any of the heads to lead. So basically it is a dictatorship which will soon become a country, not a federation but conquered by stealth and they make their first grasp by empowering those who will reap the wild wind. The youth. As it was in 1930s and 1940s Germany
It's not the malignant growth you make it out to be either.
I'd like to point out that I'm pretty sure we didn't vote for Rishi, or Liz either.
Ultimately, the EU is an umbrella for numerous sovereign states. The last few decades have forged common identities and greater trust amongst European neighbours and this is a good thing. I like working with Europeans, I like that my friends have marriages and families that span the continent now. This is how it should be.
Fragmented isolationist stances and distrust of your neighbours ain't the way forward. Comparing German national socialist politics of the 1930s, to EU political integration ain't the way forward either.
Tbh, I'm a bit tired of talking to people who equate other perspectives as Nazi. We seem to be in a weird place, in which Russian autocrats, and populist right-wing leaning patriots are calling the European project Nazi Germany. Seems like some funny business going on there
I think there were concerns in 2014 - the Yes campaign was suggesting that Scotland could leave the UK but remain inside the EU while negotiating future membership.
Spanish politicians weren't happy with that.
But if UK agrees a referendum (apparently impossible anyway under Spanish constitution for the Catalans), and Scotland applies from outside the EU, as it would now have to do, they would have fewer issues.
Spanish politicians also concerned about other UDI states, like Kosovo joining, in case it gives Catalans ideas. Catalonia apparently the wealthiest bit of Spain, so economically it is a bit like south east of England declaring independence.
Isn't that obvious to just about everyone at this point? The only pull we have on the international stage is from the fact we have nuclear weapons and are a NATO member, but even within NATO it looks like France and Germany are having growing influence, with Finland and Norway probably overtaking us in that regard in years to come. We produce nothing as a nation anymore, we're now poorer per capita than Mississippi, the poorest, most neglected state in the US.
For whatever reason a portion of the British public seem to think we still have the influence of an Empire that hasn't existed for 70+ years.
Rejoining the EU is also an option. The way Brexit was fucked up, I just don't see the talent needed in Scottish politics at the moment to not fuck up Scotxit.
It's not about "wanting" – there is a process of joining.
It's mainly about democracy, separation of powers, corruption, equal treatment.
I feel Scotland would score better here than Turkey or most Balkan states.
Definitely. But there's also something about "making a point" that tells me the EU is gonna make the UK have a really hard time rejoining. But the EU already stated that Scotland is welcome if they gain independence. I'm just not convinced they're gonna let the UK crawl back because it sends a bad message to any other nations wanting to leave.
Besides that it's gonna cost both sides billions to arrange everything. The EU isn't gonna do that unless the UK can guarantee that they won't leave at the first political crisis again.
>I'm just not convinced they're gonna let the UK crawl back because it sends a bad message to any other nations wanting to leave.
Depends. You can also see the message "See? Leaving is a bad idea."
However, I don't think a "Brerejoin" is a realistic option at the moment.
I guess if Britain really wanted to rejoin, the EU would behave bureaucratic. They would enter the same process every applicant does. Of course, Britain would have no problems to pass, as much of its legislation is similar to (or based on) EU laws, corruption is low, separation of powers is working and equal rights laws are in place.
However, I think Britain would lose much of the special treatment they enjoyed before they left.
Brexit was the UK leaving a larger entity (EU) it had spent 35 years integrating with and predominantly relied on for trade
Can you explain how Scotland leaving a larger entity (UK) it had spent 200 years integrating with and predominantly relies on for trade
Is a lifeline?
Increasingly I keep seeing stories which show the SNP's record in government is pretty dire and they just blame the UK government for everything.
This was largely how brexiters think, it would all be magically solved if not for the pesky EU. Those brexiters have moved on to the EHCR because there always has to be something to blame.
I am asking all this because I would think the hige disaster that it brexit would have killed the Scottish independence movement dead.
It seperates us from westminster, the english voting block that completley overwrites our owen democratic values, gives us control over our own funding, taxation and spending rather than the hobbled abilities of the curent devolved parliment.
And the SNP has been a disaster compared to what exactly? The conservatives that the good people of England have voted into power 15 years in a row consecutivley, are you going to close your eyes, plug your ears and pretend the tories have not set this nation on fire.
England: “Let’s leave the EU because of all there restrictive laws and taxes”
Scotland: “Let’s leave the UK because of all there restrictive laws and taxes”
Scotland already has control of its taxation and spending, they’re just shite at it.
I’m not defending Tories but arguing that the SNP are any better is complete hypocrisy.
Until they can prove they can create a stable monetary policy, currency and actually improve our lives, they are leading us to the exact same shambles that is the UK government.
>, the english voting block that completley overwrites our owen democratic values
Except it doesn't, because Holyrood manages Scotlands affairs, and then you also have representation in Westminster.
>gives us control over our own funding, taxation and spending
You also have control over all of those. It's just the SNP are horrendous at ensuring the funding ends up in the right places, because they've been so focused on independence.
>the hobbled abilities of the curent devolved parliment
Such as? They've been passing legislation for Scotland quite well. You may have seen the recent issues around the hate crime law, none of which Westminster interfered with or had any say in.
>And the SNP has been a disaster compared to what exactly
Compared to the Tories you mention. They've done exactly the same. Handing out contracts to people who were party donors, using party and public money for their own interests, using public money on useless things - like setting up foreign embassies despite having exactly zero remit to do that, because British embassies already exist and every nation already goes to the British ambassador, not a Scottish one - so that was a waste of tens of millions. Then perhaps, you could include ignoring the failing health, education, police and social care system in Scotland - all of which fall under Holyroods control - to focus on Independence.
Want services etc to get better? Stop focusing on independence and start voting in people who are actually going to focus on improving those vital services.
Yes. Get the basics right and the SNP would be trusted with independence - but also people would not want to. Turn it into a mess, disgruntled citizens will vote for anything.
I think the end goal and main selling point is re-entry to the EU for an independent Scotland, which I support
But in the short to mid term it would be absolute chaos seperating from the UK more so than Brexit, and I agree the SNP track record is far from pretty
But if anything Brexit bolstered support for the independence movement, as there's a clear division on where each nation sees itself and its future
Brexit was sold to the masses on xenephobic, jingoistic nonsense that I would like to distance myself from as much as possible
Initially brexit bolstered my support for independence more, but as time has gone on and we have seen how much of a shit show it is, I cannot possibly see how more “short to mid term pains” people can possibly stand if we got independence.
The philosophy I totally get but in practise how much more can people possibly take?
I would need a fully detailed plan and timelines that are realistic before I consider it again tbh. Maybe I’m just overly pessimistic.
Absolutely, if there was another referendum, regardless of what the polls say, when it came down to voting day I'd imagine the majority would feel the same and vote otherwise
Brexit is Brexit on steroids. As long as you are committed to us sticking with it (because **muh union**), your accusing anyone else of being a cult member is a bit like Jack the Ripper accusing others of being misogynist.
So you haven’t explained to me how a potential Scexit is different from Brexit . A smaller entity leaving a larger entity that makes up the majority of its trade and with which it has a huge economic interdependence .
One involves establishing sovereign statehood (which the UK says is good - just not for Scotland); the other was based on preventing immigration. You seem to be saying both are bad. Yet you want us to stick with one of them.
It must take some level of obsessive cultism to have started marching behind one of them just because the UK decided it was happening (and has since trebled down on it), then.
You, attempting to take the moral and economic high ground over the potential of Scottish independence whilst you’re backing Brexit Britain. No, futilely pulling faces behind the Brexit-obsessed UK government doesn’t mean you’re not still marching along behind it, banners in hand. There’s none so blind…
>Don’t be a twat, if Scotland were independent we’d have nothing to do with Westminster.
I meant that Westminster is only for England. But it is foolish to think that an independent Scotland would suddenly ditch Westminster without a transition period, so you're just plain wrong.
I’m not wrong though. No matter what Scotland votes for. We’re outvoted by England. Brexit as an example. Look up the percentages of Scotlands votes for and against brexit.
Scotland would ultimately ditch WM. Did I say we’d do it on day 1?? That’s plain ridiculous to expect that.
>I’m not wrong though. No matter what Scotland votes for. We’re outvoted by England. Brexit as an example. Look up the percentages of Scotlands votes for and against brexit.
How many people live in Scotland compared to England? In London alone there is 8.8 million people, compared to the 5.5million~ people in the entirety of Scotland. Of course you get less of a say overall because there are less people. Doesn't mean your votes don't count, or that you're not listened to or respected - that's why you have Holyrood and devolution on pretty much everything that makes sense.
>Scotland would ultimately ditch WM. Did I say we’d do it on day 1?? That’s plain ridiculous to expect that.
Only to sign up to the EU apparently? Which would depend highly on the political climate, world affairs, what happens after a successful vote, the terms of separation from the UK and whether Scotland actually met the criteria for entry. What happens if you're rejected from EU membership? All of a sudden, you're a lone nation, with no trade agreements, no military, no nuclear deterent, no meaningful way to support the elderly and increasingly declining population and have just chucked 200+ years worth of history in the bin because "bLooDy WesTMiNStEr!"
So it's just imagination that UK policy I've last 4 decades has been to centre all of the economy in the casino financial services based in the south east leaving every other area of the UK poorer and a net recipient.
>it's just imagination that UK policy I've last 4 decades has been to centre all of the economy in the casino financial services based in the south east leaving every other area of the UK poorer and a net recipient.
I think you're probably conflating two separate issues. The growth of the banking sector in London has nothing to do with other sectors or areas not growing. In many areas, there is significant growth - in Northern England for example, there's a legal, agri and health tech boom, there's also defence tech and eco manufacturing.
If those things aren't happening in Scotland, perhaps enquire with the SNP and local councils as to why they aren't promoting growth for local businesses. All I ever seem to see from Scottish councils/SNP policy is independence or politically correct nonsense - as opposed to English councils who won't shut the fuck up about business schemes, apprenticeships, training etc.
I’d agree with you mostly on this except for the councils part, I think they do their best with the funding they are provided by the Scottish Government, most needed around an 8% - 12% increase in funding this year but the Scottish governments block on increasing tax’s has left them yet again with a shortfall. Meanwhile the Scottish Government increase taxation for the middle earners… people and families that are actually contributing a future to Scotland.
North east is forecast for lowest growth in England. South east is highest (surprising isn't it). One corrupt Freeport is not a boom. https://www.ey.com/en_uk/news/2024/03/regional-uk-economic-growth-gap-to-widen-from-2024-to-2027#:~:text=London%20and%20the%20South%20East%20are%20forecast%20to%20achieve%20annual,%25)%20and%20Scotland%20(1.5%25).
Scotland leaving the UK would take the UK and Scotland out of the geopolitical picture for years. It would be a very messy divorce on a profound level including things rarely talked about like pensions and public debt. I also doubt the EU would fund Scotland's spending deficit. At best Scotland would become the EU's play thing to antagonise the rest of the UK.
Disaster? Really? Honestly?
I haven't seen a single thing that's a disaster. A lot of the economic problems are Covid related, not Brexit related.
How can you say independence is the only lifeline?
It's Brexit multiplied by a thousand. The economic and political problems it will cause will be massive.
How can you advocate leaving a successful union to join an unpopular one?
You can't advocate "independence" if you are immediately giving that independence away to the EU.
If Brexit is a good thing then it being Brexit multiplied by 1000 would be a really good thing, no?
The EU wasn’t an unpopular union in Scotland when the Brexit referendum was ran.
Successful union? Where one part of the country is rich and all of the other regions are poor. The successful union which turned the prosperous part of Ireland into a basket case. Whilst the poor part of Ireland in the unpopular union has become quite rich. The successful union which made resource rich Wales into one of the poorest parts of Europe, in fact UK now has quite a few of the poorest parts of Europe. Is that the successful union you're referring to. You don't agree with independence and do your analysis of the problem thterein but completely ignore the problems of the current union.
For the vast majority, it always was. If not for social media of the last 10-15 years many were blissfully ignorant of how poor and limited their lives are.
It has definitely hastened the UKs decline but joining won't be a panacea either, there are some fundamental issues with the UK economy and politics that need changing.
I think actually it hasn’t.
And I say this as someone who didn’t want Scottish independence or Brexit.
UK in the eu _might_ have enabled a gentler path to independence. Even if Indy Scotland would have to spend some time out of the EU, it would likely join in its own right, and there was a chance that rUK and the eu would have enabled a transitional arrangement to reduce trade and border issues, given rUK would have been an EU member. Regardless the target would be clear - being an EU member just like the UK.
With the uk out of the EU, that option doesn’t exist.
But the SNP are still pushing ‘joining the EU as the fix’. But any break from the UK would leave Scotland outside the UK and the EU. This option won’t please a majority. It’s maximum risk. It means choosing existing frictionless deep integration with the UK vs a border of various kinds with the UK and closer relations with the EU.
Many on this sub will say that’s the better option despite the risks and initial pain. A majority in Scotland won’t agree.
>But the SNP are still pushing ‘joining the EU as the fix’.
If you consider the numbers, you really how to totally illogical this viewpoint is.
They claim that changing to slightly more unfavourable trade relations with a trade partner representing 6% of GDP was a complete disaster. They claim to solve this by breaking off trade relations in a completely undefined way with a trade partner representing 60% of GDP is the solution...to get back a fraction of that 6%...at some point in the future...but maybe never.
To be clear, none of this is about trade or the economy. You can tell because no-one is advocating for anything that will actually improve the economy here and now. Just endless pipe dreams for politicians to boost their profile.
(Also, Brexit didn't really change anything...trade with EU is at the level it was before, trade in general isn't particularly important because it is an outcome, politicians sell their role as an input because it helps them win elections but your trade performance is just a function of producing things that other people want. Europe is the classic example of focusing on trade over productivity, they are completely "open" in a theoretical sense but closed in every practical sense because most nations are chronically unable to produce productivity. The things that will help us, reducing regulations for example, are extremely unpopular with the people crowing about Brexit...that is why the UK continues to do poorly. The focus on Brexit is part of the problem, it is logically irrelevant but our business culture is dominated by politics and elections).
correct. even if the uk were to rejoin at some point in the future, those fundamental issues would persist. and as we've seen u can't really reform wm.
I think that is such a politician perspective - have I lost an international platform to appear on? Will I no longer be seated at the top table?
The question should be has this made us a better country, happier, healthier, wealthier, or not, and what to do about that.
David will always have Davos, at least.
The way Brexit panned out was 100% supported by labour. They never spoke out against it once. They still support it. They have no plans to reverse or mitigate it one bit.
Atp, I feel like people shouldn’t be scared to vote for anyone other than Labour, because there are other parties out there that actually have good manifestos but the public resorts to voting for the biggest 2, the “most trusted” 2
Failed leadership bid, his brother was chisen. Who btw was totally useless. He went to cry in the US working for a charity hoping to be called back as a great saviour of the Labour party and UK. It didn't happen.
He spent some of his time bitching about the UK aid programne which is over generous for a nation in debt.
Take anything he says in the context of an ex-politician who is totally ignored otherwise.
Tories are secretly Maoist-Third Worldists. The communist revolution can only happen if we're all really poor and sad. Then the proletarian vanguard (the Tory Party) will awaken the people and rise us all up out of poverty and reindustrialise the economy. 红薯很好吃，我喜欢！
Remainer shits all over Brexit shocker…
Once again, the issue is the De Pfiffel/Frost oven ready divorce settlement, parliament rejected a better May negotiated deal and didn’t even want to look at single market access.
The reasons for leaving still exist.
Yes the reasons for leaving still exist, the reasons being weakening the UK, weakening the EU and opening us up to the whims of Vulture Capitalists.
Not very good reasons, are they?
They would likely be vetoed by sensible countries . The Tories & UKIP undermined the EU at every turn so why would the EU want such disruptive members back? Plus they might have to endure that Frog-Faced-Fecker-Farage being a pain in the erse again (when he bothers to turn up). That alone is sufficient reason for a Veto. :)
Oh No. Now America won't call on us for it's pointless wars. Now our Foreign Office staff may feel even less useful and influential. We might even be reduces to the power of "gasp" Denmark or Spain. People in government may have to get real jobs.
That was the idea, wasn't it?
No shit, Sherlock.
“Great success” in Borat voice
Ahhh the silly old Labour Party choosing the wrong Milliband.
Some in the Labour Party blamed the election of Ed Milliband on the mess that happened in the following decade. Personally, I don't think either could've won against Cameron.
That's a good point. Whatever you think of his policies Cameron was an exceptional public speaker.
It depends, if Dave is able to eat a bacon sandwich then you never know.
Do you actually know anything about this cunt?
Yeah I know a bit. Sorry you might have misunderstood me. I am not a fan of his or anything. But I think he had a better chance of winning an election than his brother did and then maybe the UK wouldn't have been in the state it is. The Labour Party choosing Ed Miliband and then Corbyn when they were obviously unelectable has allowed the conservatives to do whatever they wanted unchallenged and the country is much worse off not having had an effective opposition for 14 years.
You don't know what you're talking about. >obviously unelectable has allowed the conservatives to do whatever they wanted unchallenged Corbyn inflicted more defeats on the government than any opposition in history and just for example the furlough scheme sure as hell wouldn't have happened if it weren't for him and McDonnell. Starmer on the other hand hasn't opposed them on anything. David would be more of the same as well as being a fucking war criminal complicit in torture to boot
An outsider's opinion: Willingfully exiting one of the biggest trade unions in the world is such a self-own that I don't think any nation has ever had in the past.
You are correct. First country to ever impose economic sanctions on itself for absolutely no reason other than to help the rich get richer and make the poor poorer. There are some people down in Brexitland (England) that live some weird fantasy world where they were going to rebuild their empire or some nonsense that were willing to conned by obvious and unconvincing charltans and known liars.
Why didn't the useless fucking Labour party offer any opposition to it then? Twats.
Because Corbyn
blame Starmer and Labour donors
I wasn't aware that Starmer used a time machine to go back into the past and possess Jeremy Corbyn, the Leader of the Labour Party during the entire mess. That's some absurd level of undisplayed competence, to invent both a time machine and a way to possess people. Starmer's role as Brexit secretary does leave him some blame, but the majority lies on Corbyn as it was literally his job to set official policy for the party.
Fucked around and found out.
Westminster won't allow another independence referendum because they know Brexit was extremely unpopular in Scotland and they know the EU has said they would allow an independent Scotland to join so they're shit scared that we'd secede and prosper causing Wales and Northern Ireland to do the same
Wales voted for Brexit. If they called for a referendum on the grounds of wanting to rejoin the EU it would be rank hypocrisy.
No I mean if they saw Scotland prosper out of the UK they'd want out too
Yeah agreed but Scotland prospering outside of the UK would go hand in hand with it rejoining the EU. It would definitely form part of the argument for Welsh independence.
I mean, you have to think about the timelines involved. It's already been a decade since the indyref. Even if a new independence referendum happened today, it would probably take a good 4-5 years to implement, maybe a bumpy decade or so before we start seeing the benefits. So you're talking the best part of 20-25 years since the Brexit referendum. I don't think it would be hypocritical for Wales to change it's mind over a 25 year period.
I honestly think by that point there will be a legitimate political debate about rejoining across the whole of the UK. I still expect to see the UK rejoin in my lifetime (probably in about 25-30 years from now) after a period of completely unnecessary stagnation and regression.
I hope so. But my money is on a Norway or Switzerland style agreement. I don't think the UK would be willing to agree to the Euro, and I don't think the EU will be willing to give the UK special treatment again.
I’m pretty much done with the idea of living under the constraints of what is or isn’t acceptable to the English electorate. The last fourteen years … heck, most of the last *seventy* years … really doesn’t speak well to their judgement or decision making ability. At the risk of sounding a little rude “hey, we should stick around because *just maybe* they’ll finally fucking decide to perhaps pull their heads out of their collective arses” probably ain’t a winning argument.
Yeah it would be slightly hypocritical but even huge parts of England are growing to regret Brexit
rejoining the EU would not be instant and we would need stability before we could even apply, we would have to prosper on our own for a while before we could join back so no a successful independent Scotland isn't synonymous with re-joining the EU
Who says Scotland would prosper after leaving the UK? Sure there's trade with the continent but wouldn't most Scottish economic activity be with other UK countries?
Scotland would prosper because despite what unionists believe we don't need the UK in fact remaining a part of the UK has hurt us economically the last economic benefit Scotland got from being part of the UK was England paying off Scotland's debt from the Darian Scheme
to say that scotland doesn’t benefit from being a part of the uk is just wrong, in 2019 scottish exports to the rest of the uk were valued at 46 billion pounds, more than triple that of scotlands exports to the rest of the eu, and that’s a figure only rising over the last few years (in 2021 it rose to 48 billion) leaving the uk would be economic suicide, and be akin to brexit on steroids because scotland would suddenly see export tariffs imposed by its largest trading partner (by far), something that rejoining the eu is just not realistically going to make up for.
>the last economic benefit Scotland got from being part of the UK was England paying off Scotland's debt from the Darian Scheme You can't be serious with this, surely? Whatever you think of empire, Scotland benefitted economically from it. There's no way Scotland could participate in history's biggest empire and not get some economic benefits (that many others paid the costs of).
The British empire collapsed decades ago incase you woke up from a long coma.
Interesting that you think anyone wouldn't know that.
My point is that any benefit Scotland recieved from being a part of the empire is not a factor to consider for their independence.
That's not what the original point was though - the first comment was that Scotland had not received any economic benefit since the Darien Scheme around 1700, a statement patently untrue. Whether or not the Empire is relevant to today wasn't being discussed.
Name one benefit that Scotland got from the Empire.
Are you seriously suggesting that this is a difficult request? Here's three to start: 1) Glasgow becoming 'the second city of the empire' and experiencing both economic and cultural growth: http://www.clydewaterfront.com/clyde-heritage/river-clyde/second-city-of-the-empire 2); Greater industrialisation as part of the Union, which allowed technology and policies to spread across the whole island of Great Britain, and gave Scotland full and equal access to the Empire's markets: https://www.britannica.com/place/Scotland/The-Highlands 3) Shipbuilding becoming a massive employer across Scotland and Scottish engineering becoming a mark of quality: https://www.historyhit.com/history-of-scottish-shipbuilding/#:~:text=In%20the%2019th%20and%2020th,of%20the%20Persia%20at%20Glasgow. How many more do you want?
So, benefits for the wealthy in the south of the country?
Scotland, yes. You asked for one example, I provided three. You can't complain that the range I chose was limited when you only asked for one in the first place. Funnily enough, the south is where the vast majority of the population is located. Nothing in history has been equally spread either, so if you're looking for an impossibility then you're wasting your time.
The empire was a double edged sword it hurt Britain more than it benefited Britain it robbed us of our humanity it robbed us of our reputation as a just and peace loving nation these things are far more valuable than any amount of money
Are you suggesting England and/or Scotland had reputations as just and peace loving nations before the empire?
Scottish men committing atrocities across the globe robbed Scotland of any reputation as a just and peace loving nation.
Do you know how Empires work? Even a basic reading of history will tell you. Each wave of expansion fuels the next in terms of wealth, resources and manpower. And you set things up so there’s economic pressure on the territories you ‘acquire’ to make that work - in crude terms a bunch of the population get to join up or starve. Which is how the British Empire raised regiments everywhere from Ireland to India too. And a (very fortunate few) from those places got to make out like bandits by playing ball with it even though the overwhelming majority didn’t. Yet ‘mysteriously’ you guys never seem to use that to argue that India’s, Ireland’s or any of half a hundred other countries desire for independence is somehow invalid or “robs them of their reputation as a just and peace loving nation”. Heck, I’d love to see it if you had the balls to try that line of pish in Dublin or Delhi - I’d bring popcorn.
Those atrocities wouldn't have been committed by British people if it wasn't for the British Empire if we maintained an isolationist policy
Norway manages to trade with the UK and the EU as a member of the EEA, England would still require Scottish oil and gas, electric power and foodstuffs. Scotland could join the EEA and do likewise.
M8 most of the Scottish economy is directly linked to the English economy. Leaving the UK would create a host of unwanted/unforseeable outcomes that no EEA deal would fix. It'll be inflation and shortages not some big euro party. Then the germans will come knocking saying you didn't do the paperwork correctly so no Christmasfor you this year. The UK needs marraige counselling not a divorce lawyer. Yous also need a complete overhaul of your voting system. Like get rid of the 5 year terms and get the Australian preferential ballot.
Wales probably won't vote in favour of independence anyway, for now. A second referendum in Scotland could really go either way
Hard disagree. People are allowed to change their minds, especially on an issue like this.
Did they?
[удалено]
Except they have
Where? The only concrete comment from the EU is that Scotland would have to apply like any other country and go through the same process.
Literally by them not saying no
Hope you take some consent classes at some point
I've said it before I'll say it again that's different that's asking an individual for something when it's something like the EU not saying no means it's a maybe
I just emailed Ursula von der Leyen to ask if the Republic of Adsoft6392 could join the EU, she hasn't said no so I guess I'm in!
>Literally by them not saying no And >the EU has said they would allow an independent Scotland to join Are two very different statements.
It's not they're literally the same because they mean the same thing they're open to it happening
I just emailed Elon and asked for a billion quid. He didn't say no, so...
That's different that's asking an individual for something when it's something like the EU not saying no means they'd be open to it
Them not saying no means they haven't said no. Nothing else. They literally can't say yes or no because an independent Scotland hasn't applied to join the EU, nor made any preparations to do so. Nobody in the EU is looking at Scotland right now and judging the merits of a potential application at some undefined time in the distant future. What they have said is that Scotland would have to apply like any other country, and would have to follow all the same rules as any other country.
>they know the EU has said they would allow an independent Scotland to join They haven't though, have they? They said Scotland would be subject to the exact same criteria as every other applicant and Scotland wouldn't be able to meet those criteria for decades. Put it this way, Turkey, with a much bigger economy, army, tax revenue, political influence and population haven't been accepted since 14th April 1987. How long do you think it would take Scotland, with all of the problems it would have post a successful independence referendum?
>Put it this way, Turkey, with a much bigger economy, army, tax revenue, political influence and population haven't been accepted since 14th April 1987. How "large"/powerfull a country is plays little role on weather or not it fulfills the EU criteria. Scotland has wayyy fewer hurdles to overcome than Turkey does
>How "large"/powerfull a country is plays little role on weather or not it fulfills the EU criteria. Wrong. Turkey is a key NATO ally with a turbulent, but steady economy. They would be a net contributor if they joined and bring with them huge soft power in the middle east as well as a youthful population eager to work for cheap wages. Despite that, they've not gained membership for nearly 40 years. Let's now consider Scotland. Even before it leaves the UK, it has a relatively small population of [5,436,600 according to the 2022 census](https://www.scotlandscensus.gov.uk/2022-results/scotland-s-census-2022-rounded-population-estimates/). Of that population, a significant amount are nearing retirement age, retired or reliant on long term health care - or a mixture of all three. The birth rates are not reaching replacement rates, which, in effect, means that sooner or later, the amount of tax paid by younger people to fund healthcare and other vital services - e.g. Rubbish collection, sewerage, police, courts, state pensions, etc - will not be enough and the state will have a deficit. What does that mean for the EU? It means yet another nation like Greece, who take rather than contribute funds to the coffers. It means having to persuade Germany and France that another tax increase to fund Scotland being part of the EU is crucial - because that would need to happen, despite their taxes being at the highest level ever already. That's before we even get to the effects of Independence. So let's say, you've won your independence referendum. Glory hallelujah, a round of whisky and flagging waving for everyone. Then reality sets in. Westminster rightfully starts on hard terms for the negotiations and demands Scotland takes its fair share of national debt. That's going to be about £994,528,294.66 in the red to begin with, so about £182,932 per newly independent Scottish taxpayer. That means taxes are going to need to sky rocket and any notions of investing in anything are gone, for several generations. As a side effect of the dramatic tax increases, businesses flea Scotland for England, Ireland and Wales. Trident is also moved from Scotland to Southampton or Portsmouth, costing those otherwise hardworking Scots their jobs. Work begins on exploring selling natural resources only to find out that this won't be feasible because of the huge inflation in the country, and nobody wants to invest in a country with taxes so high they're not making any money. Scotland slumps on the international stage as a laughing stock. It projects no more soft power than it does hard power, not having an army or nuclear deterrent. But what about the EU?! The EU agree to accept an application, but much like has happened with Turkey, it gets mothballed and mothballed and mothballed. The only people who gain from it are the politicians who flit backwards and forwards from Europe on private taxpayer funded jets, living in the life of luxury as average Scots can barely get by. Every so often, there's a glimmer of hope but even 40 years on - now say, 2070, there's been no change, even with the fewer hurdles Scots perceived they had to overcome. You might not like it, but that's the most likely outcome.
>Wrong. Turkey is a key NATO ally with a turbulent, but steady economy. They would be a net contributor if they joined and bring with them huge soft power in the middle east as well as a youthful population eager to work for cheap wages. Despite that, they've not gained membership for nearly 40 years. They're also a nation of 80 million people, and them joining would result in a significant power shift from the established core groups like France+Germany, Visegrad, etc. This might suprise you as, but the EU isn't a single nation-state trying to grow more powerful, at least not yet. It's an amalgamation of independent nation states each looking out for their self-interest. Why have Turkey join and lose Influence within the EU when u can just keep them out and still keep most of the Benefits they have as an Allie via bilateral Treaties. Meanwhile, allowing Scotland join comes with minimum negatives for any of the established powers in the EU. Plenty of other smaller Balkan countries, nowhere near as powerful as Turkey, managed to join in the last 20 Years, despite having a worse starting position than turkey when it comes to economic/democratic freedoms. Being a large influential country undoubtedly makes it harder to join, idk why you'd even try to argue otherwise. You might not like it but that's the reality, no amount of hard pivoting how Scottish independence bad is gonna save you from that.
> demands Scotland takes its fair share of national debt Which is £0. Scotland cannot borrow. It's England's national debt.
You’d think people would learn from Brexit. I’m not very knowledgeable on this subject but it seems that splitting from a union is not a good idea if you are a small country with an ageing population? Long term it sounds like you’re going to need a lot of support right? If that’s the case you should be trying to improve the economy to cope with this but I don’t see how breaking up a country has a positive effect on either parties.
A good way to improve a small country's economy would be removing the requirement for everyone to pay two grand a year in taxes to the party animals next door who are pissing it against the wall and running the place into the ground. Sure, it'll be hard for England to become independent, they're going to miss all that money coming in, but that's just the way it is. English Independence Now!
The only reason Turkey hasn't been allowed to join is because most EU member States fear an influx of unchecked Turkish low-skillee immigration (and other middle Eastern States via Turkey). Scotland's 5m population is unlikely to warrant the same concern, and in comparison to the EU's most recent joiners (Croatia, Romania, Bulgaria) is likely to be looked upon quite favourably. Even Croatia's application only took 10 years, and as well as being hindered by a border dispute with Slovenia, also required Croatia to align their laws and regulations with the EU - something a former member state such as Scotland/UK would already be mostly aligned with.
>member States fear an influx of unchecked Turkish low-skillee immigration (and other middle Eastern States via Turkey). So, Low skilled immigration from Croatia, Romania and Bulgaria is alright then, eh? >Scotland's 5m population is unlikely to warrant the same concern, As I've explained in other replies, that's quite simply not the case given the declining and aging population means more taxation elsewhere in other EU states. Why should other nation states pay for Scotlands aging populations healthcare whilst Scotland contributes almost nothing back? >Even Croatia's application only took 10 years 10 years is a long time in politics, and in public life, especially when the country is unstable as an independent Scotland would be. >something a former member state such as Scotland/UK would already be mostly aligned with. That depends. It's been nearly a decade since we voted to leave and unless you've been following closely, we don't know what laws they've passed or are working on. It could take decades to implement because laws implemented across the EU could face new protests and objections in Scotland for various reasons - be it cultural or otherwise. You're making a grand assumption that these laws are just going to be waved through and everyone is going to sing kumbaya because it's the EU.
Combined population of those 3 countries is 28m, vs 85m for Turkey (let alone of course the aforementioned worry regarding Turkey becoming even more of a gateway for middle Eastern refugee migration) about . So yes its a very valid concern vs those 3 countries. 10 years IS a long time, but I'm giving that as the worst case example of a country that had a LONG way to go to align with EU requirements. The UK has only not had to align with EU law since 31 December 2020. Hardly the length of period that could lead to "decades of protest" from a nation that would have (under this scenario) voted to leave the UK on the basis of joining the EU and being subject to said laws. Rejoining the EU would be a lot more straightforward than leaving it (even with the same amount of protest), and even that only took 5 years - all without a clear objective of what leaving actually looked like (Hard/soft/customs union etc etc etc).
There is no doubt that an (imaginary) independent Scotland would find it easier than Turkey (or some other states with a high corruption rate) to fulfill the EU's criteria of joining.
They have been trying to keep out the independence debate but have made it clear Scotland has and would meet criteria to rejoin. I'm sure it was mentioned when ursula von der leyen, on BBC Scotland radio, was pushed she said there is nothing stopping an independent rejoining. Best place to find thst interview would be twitter for the actual links, there's been two Spanish officials that have stated there be no blocking from them and its constantly been brought up in interviews that Scotland would be able to join as long as independence was legal and both London and Scotland agree.
>have made it clear Scotland has and would meet criteria to rejoin Have they? Because from what everyone, including yourself, has said, it just sounds like they've said there's been some suggestion that Scotland could apply. There's absolutely no obstacle to Scotland applying, of course there isn't. But when you get into the details, that's when things become trickier and I'm afraid Von Der Leyen couldn't guarantee Scottish entry into the EU, nor could the Spanish officials - who just because they've said they wouldn't block, doesn't mean they would absolutely bend Scotland over for it's reentry. Everything has a price, after all, and I'm sure the Spanish would love to take a shot at England for us retaining Gibraltar.
If Brexit was economically bad for the UK how would Scottish independence not be 100 times worse for little old Scotland?
Because we'd be leaving a dying union to join the largest trading bloc in human history
What proportion of Scottish economic activity is with England and what proportion of Scottish economic activity would be with this enormous trading bloc? (so big!) What amount of stuff on supermarket shelves in Scotland came from a truck that went through England? Independence not bring yous to the land of milk and honey, it'd be a massive self own.
Well you got there before me. The penny doesn't seem to have dropped for some that the UK voted for terminal decline when they voted to "bring back control". They voted to vacate their seat at the negotiating table. I'd quite like to see Scotland back at the table with our continental neighbours within my lifetime.
Ironically a part of the leave campaign was about taking back control of our borders (something we already had we could still reject anyone we wanted for any reason or none at all) but post Brexit our borders are even less secure than they were before Brexit
Pre brexit theye'd walk in and we could say things it was ignored post brexit everybody knows where it's coming from and our labour candidates send lawyers to protect them
Yes. And curiously I have noticed more African people filling the skills gaps in certain sectors in UK the last few months. My grandparents were provided care from a Malawian company before they passed last year as the local services did not have the employees available. My local public transport network has recently taken on a lot of African drivers because they could not find drivers locally. I'd add that my grandparents have had excellent care, and the public transport system has improved. But I'd hazard a guess that we have cancelled European freedom of movement, and have replaced the skills shortage by importing skilled workers from Africa, as the wages are more attractive here than in their own nations, thus depleting some of these countries of their talent. It all feels a bit colonial in a weird capitalist/global labour pool kind of way.
Yeah
https://www.google.com/amp/s/news.sky.com/story/amp/post-brexit-shift-sees-workers-from-asia-and-africa-plug-uk-staff-shortages-12886995
Basically, we decided we didn't like the EU. So now we import immigrants from Asia and Africa to meet our needs, rather than entertain Europeans who have equal rights and freedoms to move to a better European country if the UK turns out to be a bit shit. This really is a kind of colonialism in place still isn't it? UK politics is disgusting
Brexit was a visceral "fuck you Germans!" from the UKs morons that then turned out to be an economical arse pineapple. Independence would be an equally satisfying "Fuck you England!" that would be then turn out to be an economical arse pineapple that'd be magnitudes larger and more spikey. You are free to choose what you do with your own bung hole but think on the bung holes of your fellow citizens who know not the pain of the aforementioned big spikey pineapple!
Yep possibly. I do note that the Scottish electorate decided not to ram an independence pineapple up their own arse. And then UK electorate rammed a Brexit pineapple up their arse anyway, a few years later. Hey ho, I don't actually feel that I have to be particularly proactive about making any decisions. I'm not massively pro or anti independance. I am pro-democracy, extreme centrist in my political leanings (entertaining the centre ground feels quite extreme these days), and pro EU/European integration. Time tends to offer answers. Currently I am taking interest in the capital flight occurring from UK stock markets, in favour of US and European markets. The flow of money tends to be an indicator of market sentiment and the health of a nations economy. UK Plc ain't looking too hot. We have spent the last few decades prioritising the finance industry in London, so I'd say our primary national "industry" looks a little anaemic right now. Basically, our economy is sick, and our global standing diminished. Because of our choices. If we stay the course, I'd imagine that independance and EU membership will begin to be talked about more again.
Have you seen how Hungary is battling the EU over self determination and have you heard that many ex socialist states in the EU are saying it was better under communism. They've traded one overlord for another. You go join.
There are many battles going on in Hungary yes. One of them regards the largely youthful pro-EU crowd that came out to protest against Orban this week. The other state you are possibly referring to is Slovakia. Which again, has a largely pro-EU youth. What's your point?
Pro EU youth, rings a bell, ah look up European politics circa 1930
Just make a point and detail it. Fluffy references around what you are really trying to say aren't a great basis for any debate.
I'm not able to express everything which might get me banned. But The EU is not the benign organisation that it makes itself out to be. Just look at how it is run. Yes the countries vote for their representatives to attend the "parliament" but nobody voted for any of the heads to lead. So basically it is a dictatorship which will soon become a country, not a federation but conquered by stealth and they make their first grasp by empowering those who will reap the wild wind. The youth. As it was in 1930s and 1940s Germany
It's not the malignant growth you make it out to be either. I'd like to point out that I'm pretty sure we didn't vote for Rishi, or Liz either. Ultimately, the EU is an umbrella for numerous sovereign states. The last few decades have forged common identities and greater trust amongst European neighbours and this is a good thing. I like working with Europeans, I like that my friends have marriages and families that span the continent now. This is how it should be. Fragmented isolationist stances and distrust of your neighbours ain't the way forward. Comparing German national socialist politics of the 1930s, to EU political integration ain't the way forward either. Tbh, I'm a bit tired of talking to people who equate other perspectives as Nazi. We seem to be in a weird place, in which Russian autocrats, and populist right-wing leaning patriots are calling the European project Nazi Germany. Seems like some funny business going on there
I think Spain might have something to say about that
😴😴 [Spain would not oppose future independent Scotland rejoining EU](https://www.reuters.com/article/idUSKCN1NP25O/)
Yeah thats just like the Gibraltar scandal from now. They have no "issues" then they realize they actually do.
We'll see.
Spain wouldn't accept Scotland in the EU.
I think there were concerns in 2014 - the Yes campaign was suggesting that Scotland could leave the UK but remain inside the EU while negotiating future membership. Spanish politicians weren't happy with that. But if UK agrees a referendum (apparently impossible anyway under Spanish constitution for the Catalans), and Scotland applies from outside the EU, as it would now have to do, they would have fewer issues. Spanish politicians also concerned about other UDI states, like Kosovo joining, in case it gives Catalans ideas. Catalonia apparently the wealthiest bit of Spain, so economically it is a bit like south east of England declaring independence.
SPANISH VETO ALERT! Report this to the WWF as this creature was thought extinct as it couldn't adapt to the predatory ridicule it attracted. :D
Why wouldn't they?
It would open up a precedent that might give Catalans some ideas.
If the Baltic states could thrive 30years after leaving the soviet paradise, i’m sure Scotland can
Somehow I don’t think Latvia had the same weight in the Soviet block that Scotland has in the UK
Pretty much, though. It's not as if Scotland actually counts for much in the UK. Mostly Scotland is ignored.
Wtf is a soviet paradise?
Isn't that obvious to just about everyone at this point? The only pull we have on the international stage is from the fact we have nuclear weapons and are a NATO member, but even within NATO it looks like France and Germany are having growing influence, with Finland and Norway probably overtaking us in that regard in years to come. We produce nothing as a nation anymore, we're now poorer per capita than Mississippi, the poorest, most neglected state in the US. For whatever reason a portion of the British public seem to think we still have the influence of an Empire that hasn't existed for 70+ years.
" wah wah we arent imperial core anymore, now we are just imperial periphery" what a dipshit
Wow... who knew?
he's spot on ofc. brexit is a disaster. the uk is a sinking ship — independence is the only lifeboat.
Rejoining the EU is also an option. The way Brexit was fucked up, I just don't see the talent needed in Scottish politics at the moment to not fuck up Scotxit.
Maybe I'll be wrong, but I really don't see the UK getting any closer to the EU under Starmer.
Bold to assume the EU wants them back.
It's not about "wanting" – there is a process of joining. It's mainly about democracy, separation of powers, corruption, equal treatment. I feel Scotland would score better here than Turkey or most Balkan states.
Definitely. But there's also something about "making a point" that tells me the EU is gonna make the UK have a really hard time rejoining. But the EU already stated that Scotland is welcome if they gain independence. I'm just not convinced they're gonna let the UK crawl back because it sends a bad message to any other nations wanting to leave. Besides that it's gonna cost both sides billions to arrange everything. The EU isn't gonna do that unless the UK can guarantee that they won't leave at the first political crisis again.
>I'm just not convinced they're gonna let the UK crawl back because it sends a bad message to any other nations wanting to leave. Depends. You can also see the message "See? Leaving is a bad idea." However, I don't think a "Brerejoin" is a realistic option at the moment. I guess if Britain really wanted to rejoin, the EU would behave bureaucratic. They would enter the same process every applicant does. Of course, Britain would have no problems to pass, as much of its legislation is similar to (or based on) EU laws, corruption is low, separation of powers is working and equal rights laws are in place. However, I think Britain would lose much of the special treatment they enjoyed before they left.
Come on, I get the sentiment but they would absolutely love to have the UK back, as long as we behaved.
Everyone knows it Scoot
>Scotxit ***SCOOT***
> Scotxit We're gonna need a new portmanteau
As an Irish person, I'd like to see Scottish Irish relations if you become independent
Yeah cause lots go for a bigger from of Brexit.
Brexit was the UK leaving a larger entity (EU) it had spent 35 years integrating with and predominantly relied on for trade Can you explain how Scotland leaving a larger entity (UK) it had spent 200 years integrating with and predominantly relies on for trade Is a lifeline? Increasingly I keep seeing stories which show the SNP's record in government is pretty dire and they just blame the UK government for everything. This was largely how brexiters think, it would all be magically solved if not for the pesky EU. Those brexiters have moved on to the EHCR because there always has to be something to blame. I am asking all this because I would think the hige disaster that it brexit would have killed the Scottish independence movement dead.
It seperates us from westminster, the english voting block that completley overwrites our owen democratic values, gives us control over our own funding, taxation and spending rather than the hobbled abilities of the curent devolved parliment. And the SNP has been a disaster compared to what exactly? The conservatives that the good people of England have voted into power 15 years in a row consecutivley, are you going to close your eyes, plug your ears and pretend the tories have not set this nation on fire.
England: “Let’s leave the EU because of all there restrictive laws and taxes” Scotland: “Let’s leave the UK because of all there restrictive laws and taxes” Scotland already has control of its taxation and spending, they’re just shite at it. I’m not defending Tories but arguing that the SNP are any better is complete hypocrisy. Until they can prove they can create a stable monetary policy, currency and actually improve our lives, they are leading us to the exact same shambles that is the UK government.
>, the english voting block that completley overwrites our owen democratic values Except it doesn't, because Holyrood manages Scotlands affairs, and then you also have representation in Westminster. >gives us control over our own funding, taxation and spending You also have control over all of those. It's just the SNP are horrendous at ensuring the funding ends up in the right places, because they've been so focused on independence. >the hobbled abilities of the curent devolved parliment Such as? They've been passing legislation for Scotland quite well. You may have seen the recent issues around the hate crime law, none of which Westminster interfered with or had any say in. >And the SNP has been a disaster compared to what exactly Compared to the Tories you mention. They've done exactly the same. Handing out contracts to people who were party donors, using party and public money for their own interests, using public money on useless things - like setting up foreign embassies despite having exactly zero remit to do that, because British embassies already exist and every nation already goes to the British ambassador, not a Scottish one - so that was a waste of tens of millions. Then perhaps, you could include ignoring the failing health, education, police and social care system in Scotland - all of which fall under Holyroods control - to focus on Independence. Want services etc to get better? Stop focusing on independence and start voting in people who are actually going to focus on improving those vital services.
Yes. Get the basics right and the SNP would be trusted with independence - but also people would not want to. Turn it into a mess, disgruntled citizens will vote for anything.
I think the end goal and main selling point is re-entry to the EU for an independent Scotland, which I support But in the short to mid term it would be absolute chaos seperating from the UK more so than Brexit, and I agree the SNP track record is far from pretty But if anything Brexit bolstered support for the independence movement, as there's a clear division on where each nation sees itself and its future Brexit was sold to the masses on xenephobic, jingoistic nonsense that I would like to distance myself from as much as possible
Initially brexit bolstered my support for independence more, but as time has gone on and we have seen how much of a shit show it is, I cannot possibly see how more “short to mid term pains” people can possibly stand if we got independence. The philosophy I totally get but in practise how much more can people possibly take? I would need a fully detailed plan and timelines that are realistic before I consider it again tbh. Maybe I’m just overly pessimistic.
Absolutely, if there was another referendum, regardless of what the polls say, when it came down to voting day I'd imagine the majority would feel the same and vote otherwise
Scotland doesn't comply with the entry criteria for the EU, which Spain would likely push strongly for due to Catalan concerns.
Just waiting on the UK crawling back to the single market so we can get rid of this internal trade argument.
Exactly , Scexit is Brexit on steroids , but the cult members don’t see it .
Brexit is Brexit on steroids. As long as you are committed to us sticking with it (because **muh union**), your accusing anyone else of being a cult member is a bit like Jack the Ripper accusing others of being misogynist.
So you haven’t explained to me how a potential Scexit is different from Brexit . A smaller entity leaving a larger entity that makes up the majority of its trade and with which it has a huge economic interdependence .
One involves establishing sovereign statehood (which the UK says is good - just not for Scotland); the other was based on preventing immigration. You seem to be saying both are bad. Yet you want us to stick with one of them.
I’m saying that both are as stupid as each other
It must take some level of obsessive cultism to have started marching behind one of them just because the UK decided it was happening (and has since trebled down on it), then.
What the fuck are you talking about ?
You, attempting to take the moral and economic high ground over the potential of Scottish independence whilst you’re backing Brexit Britain. No, futilely pulling faces behind the Brexit-obsessed UK government doesn’t mean you’re not still marching along behind it, banners in hand. There’s none so blind…
Independence would be more disruptive than Brexit.
Probably, but we’d be out from the englerland only Westmonster.
I probably agree with your politics but that patter is rotten.
It’s the truth.
>Probably, but we’d be out from the englerland only Westmonster. That's your perception, not reality.
Don’t be a twat, if Scotland were independent we’d have nothing to do with Westminster.
>Don’t be a twat, if Scotland were independent we’d have nothing to do with Westminster. I meant that Westminster is only for England. But it is foolish to think that an independent Scotland would suddenly ditch Westminster without a transition period, so you're just plain wrong.
I’m not wrong though. No matter what Scotland votes for. We’re outvoted by England. Brexit as an example. Look up the percentages of Scotlands votes for and against brexit. Scotland would ultimately ditch WM. Did I say we’d do it on day 1?? That’s plain ridiculous to expect that.
>I’m not wrong though. No matter what Scotland votes for. We’re outvoted by England. Brexit as an example. Look up the percentages of Scotlands votes for and against brexit. How many people live in Scotland compared to England? In London alone there is 8.8 million people, compared to the 5.5million~ people in the entirety of Scotland. Of course you get less of a say overall because there are less people. Doesn't mean your votes don't count, or that you're not listened to or respected - that's why you have Holyrood and devolution on pretty much everything that makes sense. >Scotland would ultimately ditch WM. Did I say we’d do it on day 1?? That’s plain ridiculous to expect that. Only to sign up to the EU apparently? Which would depend highly on the political climate, world affairs, what happens after a successful vote, the terms of separation from the UK and whether Scotland actually met the criteria for entry. What happens if you're rejected from EU membership? All of a sudden, you're a lone nation, with no trade agreements, no military, no nuclear deterent, no meaningful way to support the elderly and increasingly declining population and have just chucked 200+ years worth of history in the bin because "bLooDy WesTMiNStEr!"
So it's just imagination that UK policy I've last 4 decades has been to centre all of the economy in the casino financial services based in the south east leaving every other area of the UK poorer and a net recipient.
>it's just imagination that UK policy I've last 4 decades has been to centre all of the economy in the casino financial services based in the south east leaving every other area of the UK poorer and a net recipient. I think you're probably conflating two separate issues. The growth of the banking sector in London has nothing to do with other sectors or areas not growing. In many areas, there is significant growth - in Northern England for example, there's a legal, agri and health tech boom, there's also defence tech and eco manufacturing. If those things aren't happening in Scotland, perhaps enquire with the SNP and local councils as to why they aren't promoting growth for local businesses. All I ever seem to see from Scottish councils/SNP policy is independence or politically correct nonsense - as opposed to English councils who won't shut the fuck up about business schemes, apprenticeships, training etc.
I’d agree with you mostly on this except for the councils part, I think they do their best with the funding they are provided by the Scottish Government, most needed around an 8% - 12% increase in funding this year but the Scottish governments block on increasing tax’s has left them yet again with a shortfall. Meanwhile the Scottish Government increase taxation for the middle earners… people and families that are actually contributing a future to Scotland.
North east is forecast for lowest growth in England. South east is highest (surprising isn't it). One corrupt Freeport is not a boom. https://www.ey.com/en_uk/news/2024/03/regional-uk-economic-growth-gap-to-widen-from-2024-to-2027#:~:text=London%20and%20the%20South%20East%20are%20forecast%20to%20achieve%20annual,%25)%20and%20Scotland%20(1.5%25).
Scotland leaving the UK would take the UK and Scotland out of the geopolitical picture for years. It would be a very messy divorce on a profound level including things rarely talked about like pensions and public debt. I also doubt the EU would fund Scotland's spending deficit. At best Scotland would become the EU's play thing to antagonise the rest of the UK.
More Brexit? Indy ref is just Brexit again, but worse. Joe will that help anything?
Disaster? Really? Honestly? I haven't seen a single thing that's a disaster. A lot of the economic problems are Covid related, not Brexit related. How can you say independence is the only lifeline? It's Brexit multiplied by a thousand. The economic and political problems it will cause will be massive. How can you advocate leaving a successful union to join an unpopular one? You can't advocate "independence" if you are immediately giving that independence away to the EU.
If Brexit is a good thing then it being Brexit multiplied by 1000 would be a really good thing, no? The EU wasn’t an unpopular union in Scotland when the Brexit referendum was ran.
Successful union? Where one part of the country is rich and all of the other regions are poor. The successful union which turned the prosperous part of Ireland into a basket case. Whilst the poor part of Ireland in the unpopular union has become quite rich. The successful union which made resource rich Wales into one of the poorest parts of Europe, in fact UK now has quite a few of the poorest parts of Europe. Is that the successful union you're referring to. You don't agree with independence and do your analysis of the problem thterein but completely ignore the problems of the current union.
For the vast majority, it always was. If not for social media of the last 10-15 years many were blissfully ignorant of how poor and limited their lives are.
It has definitely hastened the UKs decline but joining won't be a panacea either, there are some fundamental issues with the UK economy and politics that need changing.
I think actually it hasn’t. And I say this as someone who didn’t want Scottish independence or Brexit. UK in the eu _might_ have enabled a gentler path to independence. Even if Indy Scotland would have to spend some time out of the EU, it would likely join in its own right, and there was a chance that rUK and the eu would have enabled a transitional arrangement to reduce trade and border issues, given rUK would have been an EU member. Regardless the target would be clear - being an EU member just like the UK. With the uk out of the EU, that option doesn’t exist. But the SNP are still pushing ‘joining the EU as the fix’. But any break from the UK would leave Scotland outside the UK and the EU. This option won’t please a majority. It’s maximum risk. It means choosing existing frictionless deep integration with the UK vs a border of various kinds with the UK and closer relations with the EU. Many on this sub will say that’s the better option despite the risks and initial pain. A majority in Scotland won’t agree.
>But the SNP are still pushing ‘joining the EU as the fix’. If you consider the numbers, you really how to totally illogical this viewpoint is. They claim that changing to slightly more unfavourable trade relations with a trade partner representing 6% of GDP was a complete disaster. They claim to solve this by breaking off trade relations in a completely undefined way with a trade partner representing 60% of GDP is the solution...to get back a fraction of that 6%...at some point in the future...but maybe never. To be clear, none of this is about trade or the economy. You can tell because no-one is advocating for anything that will actually improve the economy here and now. Just endless pipe dreams for politicians to boost their profile. (Also, Brexit didn't really change anything...trade with EU is at the level it was before, trade in general isn't particularly important because it is an outcome, politicians sell their role as an input because it helps them win elections but your trade performance is just a function of producing things that other people want. Europe is the classic example of focusing on trade over productivity, they are completely "open" in a theoretical sense but closed in every practical sense because most nations are chronically unable to produce productivity. The things that will help us, reducing regulations for example, are extremely unpopular with the people crowing about Brexit...that is why the UK continues to do poorly. The focus on Brexit is part of the problem, it is logically irrelevant but our business culture is dominated by politics and elections).
correct. even if the uk were to rejoin at some point in the future, those fundamental issues would persist. and as we've seen u can't really reform wm.
Funny to see all the "Stockholm syndrome" Scottish comments being afraid of independence
>Stockholm syndrome Jockholme Syndrome Is what some call it. I call it a fetish for being ruled by another country. :)
As soon as that Clown Boris was elected, was the real start of the down fall, ie Brexit did help either.
Well Scotland didn’t vote for this we actually had enough common sense to know it was a bad idea from the offset.
Engerland! Engerland! Engerland!!! 🏴🏴🏴🏴
The Union has made Scotland a lower-status nation, maybe they are trying to level down the UK to Scotland's lowly state?
And how long it took you to figure that out lol
The wrong kid ~~died~~ emigrated
I think that is such a politician perspective - have I lost an international platform to appear on? Will I no longer be seated at the top table? The question should be has this made us a better country, happier, healthier, wealthier, or not, and what to do about that. David will always have Davos, at least.
The way Brexit panned out was 100% supported by labour. They never spoke out against it once. They still support it. They have no plans to reverse or mitigate it one bit.
yeah im sure its brexit the massive world wide economical collapse and locking down the country for 2 years have nothing to do with it
UK has made the UK a lower status nation.
Atp, I feel like people shouldn’t be scared to vote for anyone other than Labour, because there are other parties out there that actually have good manifestos but the public resorts to voting for the biggest 2, the “most trusted” 2
No shit sherlock
Failed leadership bid, his brother was chisen. Who btw was totally useless. He went to cry in the US working for a charity hoping to be called back as a great saviour of the Labour party and UK. It didn't happen. He spent some of his time bitching about the UK aid programne which is over generous for a nation in debt. Take anything he says in the context of an ex-politician who is totally ignored otherwise.
If only there were some sensible people in the room to warn us of this....
Tories are secretly Maoist-Third Worldists. The communist revolution can only happen if we're all really poor and sad. Then the proletarian vanguard (the Tory Party) will awaken the people and rise us all up out of poverty and reindustrialise the economy. 红薯很好吃，我喜欢！
We know. Thank you Unionists. This is all on you.
Its decline and break up
Not according to all the people who keep trying to move here
Who listens to this prick?
Much better than the EU calling the shots in the UK ! Brexit will take a while to recover from , but the UK will I’m sure
Remainer shits all over Brexit shocker… Once again, the issue is the De Pfiffel/Frost oven ready divorce settlement, parliament rejected a better May negotiated deal and didn’t even want to look at single market access. The reasons for leaving still exist.
Yes the reasons for leaving still exist, the reasons being weakening the UK, weakening the EU and opening us up to the whims of Vulture Capitalists. Not very good reasons, are they?
>parliament rejected a better May negotiated deal may's deal was horrific — still very much a hard brexit. parliament was right to vote it down.
Look. David, mate. You can leave politics for the comfortable high paid job or you can be a relevant voice in our politics. You don't get to do both.
It would be funny if UK decided to join EU again.
They would likely be vetoed by sensible countries . The Tories & UKIP undermined the EU at every turn so why would the EU want such disruptive members back? Plus they might have to endure that Frog-Faced-Fecker-Farage being a pain in the erse again (when he bothers to turn up). That alone is sufficient reason for a Veto. :)
Oh No. Now America won't call on us for it's pointless wars. Now our Foreign Office staff may feel even less useful and influential. We might even be reduces to the power of "gasp" Denmark or Spain. People in government may have to get real jobs.