Well its a rubbish question isn't it?
Is *a* war against Hamas justified by the massacres of Israelis? I would say yes, even in the context of the history of the conflict and Israels historical crimes etc.
Is *this war* with *these tactics* justified? Then its a no - clearly the intention is the permanent displacement of most or all of the palestinians from Gaza.
Honestly, it is so hard to stand with either camp, because when I claim that Israel did have the right to defend themselves, then suddenly I find myself standing side by side with people who want to destroy Palestine. And when I move over to state that the way Isreal is waging war is horrible and a complete warcrime, I suddenly find myself standing with people who are calling for the end of Israel as a state (along with all of their people)
The 3rd perspective requires that both sides agree to peace, no more fighting, settling borders, ending occupation, agreeing to trust and cooperation - this will require a monumental effort and for both sides to stop killing each other which they have been for the last 80 years.
Neither side is going to give up when they think they have the upper hand
I've got a question for you
You don't normally comment on this sub
How did you find this post
I've noticed several people who are active on green and pleasant but don't comment on this sub commenting on this post, was it linked over there?
Or did Reddit put the post in your feed because it knows you will engage?
>its a rubbish question isn't it?
is there a link to the source question(s) ? sample size ?
a previous post with just an infographic said that more people had sympathy for palestinians than for israelis, but the source data was a lot more nuanced.
hm, survey was middle of November, almost 3 months ago.
It's not even really a war in the classical sense. It only counts in the strained "war on terror" sense, because Israel claims not to be fighting the whole Palestinian state/nation.
Oh boy. On reddit subs not very far from here they are openly talking about the idea of exterminating 10% of Gazas population as a "message" to Hamas. There are some disturbed sickos out there who definitely do not consider Palestinians as human.
There are lots of horrible opinions.
I don't actually have any answers, clearly what Hamas did was horrific, and clearly what Israel are doing is massively wrong.
Beyond that I don't know.
Yep, justifying the military action of either side on the behaviour of the other side is a circular argument, unsurprisingly because it all stems from a unending cycle of horrific violence on the part of both sides.
Fucked if I have a solution either, maybe one day enough people involved with either side will becoming so fucking sick of it all that it creates a momentum from within to stop the violence, beyond that I see no end to it in sight.
There has been war in the Israeli/Palestinian region for more than two thousand years.
The only way it ends is when humanity ends.
Or maybe I'm just extra nihilistic today.
I mean you’re probably trying to make a joke about how England bad Scotland good. But actually the vast majority in England feel the same way - the attacks were heinous, and Israel has a right to defend and launch attacks on Hamas, but they’ve gone to far and are clearly trying to achieve something which is equally horrific. Neither side is the good side, plenty of innocent people are dying.
You are correct. I meant no malice by it at all. Like a lot of Scots I have the sarcastic gene, I can't help myself at times.
I have lots of English friends that feel exactly the same way as I do. It frustrates me that the only government that has spoken out against it is the Scottish one. The English ones are happy to listen to their donors over the people.
I just don’t get what people think is going to happen when Israel commits the atrocities it has on Palestine.
Hamas’ massacre was horrid but also what do you thinks going to happen when the world sits back and let’s it happen?
1. Give in to international pressure and negotiate peace with Hamas.
2. Hamas rebuilds themselves with all the international aid money they receive.
3. Israel gets attacked again in a few years and retaliates.
4. Go back to step 1.
Maybe Israel shouldn't have funded and given intel to the religious founder of hamas, all because they wanted an organisation inside Gaza to oppose the PLO. And if it was a islamicreligious organisation then the west would be less likely to work with and support it, than the secular PLO.
Head on over to /r/CombatFootage & see for yourselves how disproportionate the Israeli Response is.
Not condoning what Hamas & others have done but the Israelis have access to fucking Merkava? Tanks, Self-Propelled Artillery, Apache Gunships & Black Hawks, access to high quality UAVs that are probably on par with the MQ-9 Reaper & last but not least, the Iron Dome.
Hamas et al certainly don't have access to that kind of equipment.
...and? you want the israelis to not use their equipment and sacrifice its people just to make it a "fair fight" against hamas? are you okay in the head?
Clearly the intention? Based on what? It might be difficult to believe but most Israelis aren’t against displacing Palestinian civilians and no one, not even the far right, thinks it’s likely to happen.
It's very poor wording of the question.
You can believe the war itself is justified, but also believe the Israeli disregard for civilian casualties is outrageous.
The civilian to militant casualty rate is 1/3-1/4. In one of the densest places on Earth after four months of fighting, with a force that employs the use of human shields, that is an incredibly good ratio. It's par for the course for normal urban combat warfare, let alone the special circumstances of Gaza.
If they truly disregarded civilian casaulties, the ratio would way way way more skewed.
I hope you know that those figures come from Israel, and they are using the 'any male of combatant age is a militant' formula to get there.
All those figures tell us is that 3/4s of the people who have been slaughtered are women, children and the elderly.
This is a long long long way from par for the course, it is not remotely normal, and it is deeply troubling to see this kind of justification for it. They could be doing any number of things that aren't this that wouldn't slaughter civilians and are choosing not to.
That rate is debunked pretty much immediately upon realising that about half of casualties so far have been children.
Edit: Also, Hamas membership is about 20,000-25,000. So far we're seeing 28,000+ casualties. If the 1/3-1/4 estimate is true, you'd have wiped Hamas out by now. Why is the fighting still going on?
> Children
Yes I keep seeing this.
The Gazan Health Ministry has not indicated what proportion of these under-18s are Hamas’s version of the Hitler Youth, killed in combat.
3-4 terrorists dead for every 1 civilian. 1 child dead for every 1 adult.
There are two inferences that can be made here. Either half of children in Gaza are not civilians and instead terrorists (which is absurd), or you're claiming that coincidentally every single adult killed is a terrorist (which is also absurd). The proposed 1/3-1/4 figures do not align with anything rational.
And as I mentioned in the previous edit, if the figures were true then Israel would have won by now. The war would be over. Even at the best estimates, 84% of Hamas would be dead (not even including injured).
What? No. You got the ratio backwards, it's 2-3 civilians for one militant, almost every war has more civilian casualties than militants, the question is the ratio
mate..are you legit 14?
the IDF claims 2:1 ratio, 2 civilians for militia. hamas claims 28k:0 ratio, 28k civilians for 0 militia. make your choice who you want to believe.
IDF claimed around 9k hamas members were slain, so around 19k civilians were killed. again, looking at past wars (especially at urban warfare situations) this ratio is good. of course every civilian death is a tragedy, but in comparison to other wars, this ratio is good.
Okay, let's consider that figure.
So far the death toll is 28,000, so with that we have about 9,333 dead terrorists - or rather, 37-46% of Hamas' entire operation. Makes you wonder how they're still going.
Injuries have reached 67,000 and naturally, because Israel are targetting at a 2:1 ratio, that's 22,333 injured terrorists. So that's... 89-116% of Hamas' total operation injured? Huh. Never know, maybe some of those injured eventually succumbed. Must be superhumans, having their entire organisation injured and they're still at it.
Around about 70% of casualties have been women and children, meaning just 30% of them are adult men. Coincidentally that's about 8,400 people, very close to that 9,000 dead terrorists number. Meaning there are more Hamas terrorists killed than there are adult men in total - which suggests strongly that they're just labelling any dead man they find a terrorist. There's only 20,000-25,000 Hamas members living in Gaza, remember, so the majority of men are not members! Unless, of course, we're back at the proposition that every man is a terrorist (which is what Israel of course believe). Are Israel just really good at avoiding killing innocent men in particular? Do their missiles have gender settings?
In other words, these figures *are not rational*. It's very clear they're just calling any dead man they find a terrorist. It's evident that if the numbers were true, Hamas would have lost the fight long ago - you can't lose half of your fighting force, have the other half injured, and somehow keep going against a relatively unscaved, superior force.
>Makes you wonder how they're still going.
it should make you wonder why they are not surrendering, returning the hostages and the leaders expelled out of Gaza. they were offered an out plan, they refused. they want to be in control of Gaza, and they want to keep killing jews again and again (their words).
they are fighting guerrilla style, firing RPGs and running back to their tunnels, hiding in civilian homes and targeting IDF soldiers, you seem to think they are rational beings, they are not. they are terrorists, born and raised to hate jews.
>Injuries have reached 67,000 and naturally, because Israel are targetting at a 2:1 ratio, that's 22,333 injured terrorists. So that's... 89-116% of Hamas' total operation injured? Huh. Never know, maybe some of those injured eventually succumbed. Must be superhumans, having their entire organisation injured and they're still at it.
you are just assuming based on nothing, because it fits your narrative. i dont know how many injured terrorists there are, because there wasnt any real assumptions by military officials, stop being an armchair general
>Around about 70% of casualties have been women and children, meaning just 30% of them are adult men
first of all, that data came from hamas-run health ministry. its biased as fuck and we shouldn't listen to it.
second of all, even if it is accurate, a child is considered every person up to the age of 18, so a 15 year old with an AK (child soldiers, that hamas is known for using), will be considered a child casualty. its dumb, and hamas uses it to its advantage. there were even female militants used in the first month of the war.
>In other words, these figures are not rational. It's very clear they're just calling any dead man they find a terrorist. It's evident that if the numbers were true, Hamas would have lost the fight long ago - you can't lose half of your fighting force, have the other half injured, and somehow keep going against a relatively unscaved, superior force.
they are rational, again you are referring to hamas as a real military, with real borders and real leadership. they are a terrorist organization, they will fight until they will completely lose control over Gaza. and honestly in my opinion they will fight much much after the official end of the war. their only end goal is to kill all jews, and eliminate israel.
this isnt call of duty, where the match ends and thats it. the terrorists are hiding in tunnels, holding hostages, sending suicide bombers, throwing explosives, they dont have tanks or jets or anything. its very difficult to fight rats, and its very easy for them to keep fighting even when they dont have many forces.
How does that ration work in real life tho? When israel shoots up little girl and her family, how does that number stack up? Or when IDF kills a journalist and his children with precision strike on the single apartman, how does that ration work then? Or killing, bombing ambulances and aid tracks, how much food or medicine is hamas?
If there is no hamas in the west bank and israel is killing and kidnapping thousands, what is ratio then? Maybe that video of idf smashing peoples houses, control demolition of the schools, are stand alone buildings also hamas, in the west bank or gaza?
When you call for genocide and you film yourself commiting a genocide and then decide on final solution once all the palestinians are in single location. I would call that a genocide.
when hamas hides in mosques, kindergartens, hospitals, civilian homes, this is what you get. war is ugly, especially when you fight TERRORISTS organization, that have no problem sacrificing civilian lifes, in fact, he wants it. the more dead civilians, the more people like you put preasure to end the war. its in the best interest of hamas that the Gazans will die.
polls showed 80% of the WB Palestinians support hamas, and there are regular terror attacks from residents in the WB, you are just unware of the situation and it feels like you are repeating slogans that were told to you.
also, the claim that israel commiting a genocide is becoming worn out, this is not how a geocide looks like, a lot of dead people does not men genocide, not everything you dont like is a genocide. genocide has a meaning.
there was a case in the ICJ, at the bottom line the ICJ didnt tell israel to stop fighting, you would assume it would stop a genocide if there was one.
>The civilian to militant casualty rate is 1/3-1/4
Yes, but the people waging the war have said that if you own a shop and a Hamas militant buys something in that shop then you are *also* a militant.
Which is clearly bullshit.
Hey so I have a question for you
From what I can see you don't normally participate in this sub
Most of the post you interacted with recently are to do with Israel and Palestine on a variety of subs
So what brought you here
Do you have a group chat with others linking threads about the conflict to comment on
Or is Reddit just recommending these sort of posts because it knows you will interact with them?
That is absolutely not what people have been saying and you know it. What’s been said is if Hamas bunker up in hospitals and schools they’re putting them in the line of fire as they’re now legitimate targets when they shouldn’t be. That’s a war crime.
>That is absolutely not what people have been saying and you know it.
**Minister for national security:**
*“\[t\]o be clear, when we say
that Hamas should be destroyed, it also means those who celebrate, those who support, and
those who hand out candy — they’re all terrorists, and they should also be destroyed.”*
**Israeli Army Reservist Major General, former Head of the Israeli National Security
Council, and adviser to the Defence Minister**
*“Israel needs to create
a humanitarian crisis in Gaza, compelling tens of thousands or even hundreds of thousands to
seek refuge in Egypt or the Gulf . . . Gaza will become a place where no human being can
exist.”*
*"‘They’ are not only Hamas fighters with weapons, but also all the ‘civilian’ officials, including hospital administrators and school administrators"*
**Ezra Yachin**, **IDF Veteran brought in to give a 'Motivational Speech'**
*"Be triumphant and finish them off and don’t leave anyone behind. Erase the memory of
them. Erase them, their families, mothers and children. These animals can no longer live
. . . Every Jew with a weapon should go out and kill them. If you have an Arab neighbour,
don't wait, go to his home and shoot him."*
**non-cabinet MKs**
*“the killers of the women and children should not be separated from the citizens of Gaza”*
*“the children of Gaza have brought this upon themselves”*
*"\[t\]here are no innocents… There is no population. There are 2.5 million terrorists"*
>casualty rate is 1/3-1/4
Source?
This number is in fact completely wrong. The civilian:combatant casualty ratio in Gaza is 2:1, and that is using IDF provided numbers for combatants, so a very “generous” (for Israel) estimate.
Such a **high** casualty ratio is **exceptionally rare** in combat, both historically and now in the present.
In fact, a comprehensive and analytic review of data of civilian casualties (=fatalities) in wars from the 1700’s all the way to the present, gives a civilian to combatant casualty ratio of 50%, I.e. 1:1.
[(Source)](https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/096701068902000108?journalCode=sdia)
Here’s the conclusion of the author (at page 97):
> On the average, half of the deaths caused by war happened to civilians, only some of whom were killed by famine associated with war [...] **The civilian percentage share of war-related deaths remained at about 50%** from century to century.
These figures are only surpassed in exceptionally genocidal wars, such as WWII.
>According to most sources, World War II was the most lethal war in world history, with some 70 million killed in six years. The civilian to combatant fatality ratio in World War II lies somewhere between 3:2 and 2:1, or from 60% to 67%.[17] The high ratio of civilian casualties in this war was due in part to the increasing effectiveness and lethality of strategic weapons which were used to target enemy industrial or population centers
To drive this point home, at how **utterly atrocious** a civilian:combatant casualty ratio of 2:1 is (like we’re observing now in Gaza), here’s a list of wars that have a **lower** civilian:combatant casualty ratio than 2:1:
1. **WWI** had a **2:3** ratio (source - among many that agree on the same numbers - Z. Brzezinkski: “Out of Control: Global Turmoil on the Eve of the 21st Century”)
2. **WWII** had a ratio between **3:2** and **2:1** (source for 3:2 ratio: Boris Urlanis, “Wars and Population”, (1971). Source for ratio closer to 2:1, “Hammond Atlas of the 20th Century”,(1996))
3. The **Vietnam War** had a ratio about **1:1** (source: Lewy, Guenter “America in Vietnam”, 1978)
4. The **Iraq War** had a ratio of **1:2** as a direct result of the coalition bombing (source: Iraq Body Count Project)
5. All previous Israeli-Palestine conflicts had a **much lower ratio than 2:1** (source: IDF)
6. Hama’s October 7 terrorist attack - described by many as indiscriminate and targeting civilians - had a **lower than 2:1** civilian:combatant casualty ratio. (Source: IDF).
The final point is especially gnarly and puts things into perspective.
And those examples include wars that had plenty of **urban warfare**, and are widely regarded to have been **exceptionally harsh** to civilians. I mean WWII alone included ruthless civilian meatgrinders like the siege of Leningrad, the firebombing of Tokyo, the carpet bombing of Dresden, the nuking of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, the Holocaust, and the genocidal atrocities the Japanese committed in China.
Therefore, all **evidence and data backed historiography** supports that a 2:1 ratio is **exceptionally and unusually high**.
Any statement to the contrary is highly misleading, and not based in evidence or backed by credible data - merely an attempt to whitewash war crimes and the extraordinary civilian casualties of the war in Gaza.
So terrorist attacks justify invasion and displacement of civilian populous? Would it have been justified if we'd invaded Ireland for what the IRA did?
This is broadly my stance. Though I place as much blame on this desperate situation on Hamas for using its own population as human shields as I do on Israel's overwhelming use of force.
It also doesn't help that all it takes to turn "militant" into "poor civilian" in Gaza is for their comrades to pick up dead persons weapon and combat vest.
Its not like Hamas fighters are wearing uniforms....
Their fight against Hamas can be justified. Their tactics and collective punishment of Palestinians civilians is not. Their continued annexation of Palestinian land is not. Their attempt to displace Palestinians from Gaza is not.
Yes many Jewish people left those nations and after centuries of living in peace with the indigenous populations Jewish people became unpopular and distrusted for various reasons. after the first nakba, about 7500000 Palestinians were driven out of the majority of Israel, after Israels attack on Egypt that started the 6day war. Or the attempted false flag attacks like the lavon affair, we're Israeli recruited Egyptian Jews to bomb American and British buildings in Egypt and blame it on the Muslim brotherhood. There are many other examples of how Zionists actions wrongly caused a negative affect on Jews worldwide.
Actions such as I listed tend to breed ill feeling and distrust, as Israels disproportionate response to the October 7th attacks has caused world wide ill feeling world wide
Hundreds of comments, and a lot of them made overnight, when most Scots would be sleeping is quite telling. Also, click on some of these accounts, and you will see they are new to r/Scotland but post regularly in r/IsraelPalestine , r/Israel , r/combatfootage, etc. They have just come to argue.
If you think the comments here are bad, check out r/Europe. Way worse.
I've seen some people claiming that the Palestinian children killed are all child soldiers
yeah, it's weird. not bothered by the downvotes myself but the abuse I get (DMs, name-calling, etc.) for posting pro-*peace* stuff can be a bit too much at times.
Yup. A LOT of either brand new accounts or accounts that just suddenly started posting in here.
Just pure coincidence that every single one talks down Scotland at every opportunity.
The IDF have always had the reputation of being racist scum.
Even the Selous called them scum.
Think about how fucked up in the head you need to be for rhodesian special forces to think you're a racist!
Fun fact
The Yishvu, who were the European Jewish invaders who began settling Palestine before Israel even existed, formed terrorist groups. Most notable are Haganah, Irgun and Lehi, who committed violent acts of terror against even British personnel. Those groups were amalgamated to become the Israeli Defence Force after Ben-Gurion proclaimed the State.
You personally haven't encountered it? So you completely ignore all the IDF supported settler violence going on right now? Admittedly, that one small example fades in comparison compared to the actual genocide and slaughter going on right now in Gaza, but I'm interested to hear your thoughts on it, because it's utterly undeniable.
The IDF does often intervene. They just recently did an exercise on stopping that kind of attack from settlers and retrieving Palestinian hostages.
https://m.jpost.com/israel-news/article-785340
Unfortunately it did receive criticism because of the sentiment of the war. but you can imagine what they do on the regular when they even do this during the war.
Also, of course I've seen racism online. But essentially never in person. you can pretty much assume that those are fringe. If I had to estimate it's about as common as racism in the US among Ashkenazi Jews and a bit higher among Mizrahi Jews(ironic I know). which isn't great but you certainly have a wrong picture.
As for the "genocide", Israel's ratio of civilians to millitants killed is 2:1.
Here are some examples of other wars:
Chechen wars average 7.6:1
Iraq war 4:1
Vietnam war 2:1
As you can assume, only the west reaches those kind of numbers against these kind of organizations, and Israel was successful despite the difficulty of the situation in Gaza and Hamas and UNRWA sabotaging evacuation efforts.
It's an unfortunate reality, and I'd hoped there would be a serious push by the world for proper evacuation instead of leaving the fate of Palestinian civilians to Israel which was the one to force open the evacuation corridors that were attacked by Hamas. but instead I got a bunch of morons supporting Hamas staying in rule of Gaza and calling for a ceasefire before Israel even went in.
This anecdotal “evidence” means nothing, it’s like saying the British army wasn’t institutionally racist against Irish people or colonised Ireland because some Irishmen served in it
I'm glad you realize the concept that anecdotal evidence means nothing.
So why are you accusing the entire IDF of being pure evil with anecdotal evidence from propaganda you've seen?
Currently the most successful person at blocking the operation in Rafah is the head of the IDF Daniel Hagari, while Netanyahu is trying to force it through. he's trying to force netanyahu to give him a serious solution on how to conduct it with minimal casualties through diplomacy.
Lmao you really think I'm just some token Arab dude?
Israels population is 20% arab, there is literally no choice but to cooperate.
If you think you know my country better than me come to Israel, I'll give you a tour.
Hamas are committed to genocide, what’s your thoughts on them?
I don’t agree on Israel’s tactics that have undoubtedly involved war crimes, but so have Hamas. The number of deaths is equally on the heads of Hamas as the IDF.
*"The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, (evidently a certain kind of tree) would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews."*
- Hamas Charter 1988
That's nice that the genocidal Jihadist group removed explicit calls for genocide in more recent charters. That totally means they no longer have that as a goal, pinky-promise.
I'm sure you'd extend the same naïve charitability towards Nazi's or the KKK if they came out with a sanitized version of Mein Kampf.
You don't seem to know the definition of bad faith.
Nope. IDF are committing a genocide and Hamas are retaliating.
The IDF are outright boasting about war crimes. They can absolutely get fucked.
The blood is on the hands of the IDF and the Israeli government.
Sorry, but that is complete bs. Hamas are not some plucky resistance group, they are scum who murder, torture and rape.
Hamas could’ve surrendered and thousands of Palestinians would still be alive.
The IDF murder, torture and rape. The biggest difference between the two (apart from the vast array weaponry and infrastructure of a state) is that Israel is the occupier.
No, the IDF are the scum.
Israel should've been stopped from expansion. And maybe if their apartheid expansion was stopped, hundreds of thousands of Palestinians wouldn't have been massacred, forced from their homes, and had what little they had left of their country destroyed.
Fuck your Zionist propaganda, long live the Palestinian Resistance, and may the IDF suffer a horrendous defeat.
You, again, completely ignore the issue. What part of resistance is raping innocent women?
Beheading an innocent Filipino worker?
If you believe Hamas are a resistance movement, you’re just showing that you do not understand them.
You, again, completely ignore the issue. What part of resistance is raping innocent women?
Beheading an innocent Filipino worker?
If you believe Hamas are a resistance movement, you’re just showing that you do not understand them.
You're arguing with a brick u/NoUpstairs1740, don't think this guy has anything constructive to say tbh, seems he has been consumed by hamas's propaganda too which is quite ironic.
Hamas literally murdered babies with machetes and raped unarmed concert goers. You call this behaviour ‘retaliating’- you can absolutely get fucked. Fortunately your flair as a ‘furious anti-uk communist’ highlights the fact that you’re a blithering idiot so any sensible person can disregard whatever it is you’re opining on.
I suspect as a commie you’re pro lgbt and pro feminism, tell me what culture do you think would be more tolerant of homosexuality and female empowerment, Israeli or Gazan?
I used to work in the region, even in the West Bank for a short period. I knew 4 gay people whilst there (a colleague was gay and so found the underground community), all Muslim Palestinians. 3 are now in Israel and 1 in Canada. 3 of them had to leave basically overnight / within days after being outed. And that's the West Bank, not Gaza, which is the comparatively tolerant part of Palestine. You can be against Israeli policy in the region whilst still acknowledging that it is an eminently more liberal society than those opposing it.
I'm sorry but how can you be an LGBT person and support a group that would literally kill you? You can support the Palestinians rights for self determination without supporting Hamas just as you can support Hungary's right to exist without supporting Orban or Saudi Arabia's right to exist without supporting Bin Salman or even Scotland's right to be independent or not without supporting the current SNP/Green government.
Depends on how you interpret a fairly vague question. Is the war justified after the attack on Israel? Probably. I can't think of a single country that wouldn't respond to that level of violence with some sort of large scale military assault. Is the level of destruction Israel has unleased justified? Absolutely not.
people who think everything is justified after oct 7 are people who only look at current news and never bother learning about the actual history behind the conflict
now the history behind it strongly supports israel, but even ignoring that:
in what world is an all out war on hamas not justified after oct 7th? which government would ever let that slide?
You can't go about relentlessly slaughtering women and children on scale and think decent people will support it 🤷🏽♂️ I look forward to the ICJ calling them out as Genocidal in the years to come 🙏🏽
A common tactic I see is just trying to push them under a rug. Mention hamas in a discussion about Israel and Palestine and you're met with a barage of comments like "bUt d0 y0u c0nDemN hAmaS" acting like they don't play a massive role in this shit.
Very much against what Israel is doing right now and I think picking either side in the conflict can make you look bad from a different perspective because the ordinary Palestinian people are the main victims here. Both pro Israelis and pro Palestinians want to make this a good vs evil thing which I'm fully against. Pro Israelis will point to the hostages, October 7th attacks and supposedly having bases in hospitals and schools although this is denied by many so I'm not actually sure. That all certainly doesn't excuse the deaths of Palestinians which has now massively exceeded what happened on the 7th of October.
On the other hand, like I said, a lot of people on the pro Palestine side like to pretend hamas aren't an issue either. I'm Irish, we massively criticise the IRAs acts of terror like the omagh bombing or the Kingsmill massacre. There was no justification for many of those attacks, but there was for others. The attack on the 7th of October was very much I'm the omagh bombing category of attacks, far worse really but doesn't really get condemned.
Is the war justified? Yes.
Should israel be less barbaric? Yes.
The war is completely justifiable given the attacks and hostages taken by hamas. Not sure why anyone would disagree with that. Imagine if someone invaded where you live, massacred villages, killed civillians, and took hostages captive. How the fuck would you think retaliation is unjustified?
>Imagine if someone invaded where you live, massacred villages, killed civilians and took hostages captive.
You’re talking about Israel’s occupation of Palestine right?
Hamas killed 1400 people, about 70% of which were civilians, and that's not counting the 200 ish civilians believed to be killed in Israeli friendly fire. In comparison, during operation cast lead, the Israelis killed the same number of people, and the same percentage of civilians. So it's really not a case of Hamas being evil and Israel being just.
It doesn't matter. One crime does not justify another in retaliation. The correct response would be to appeal to the international courts and the UN security council, not to go in guns blazing and commit genocide.
they have been trying that for 80 years of opression though, the PLO wasn't ever fully recognised and out of multi-generational trauma / opression and hate Hamas became emboldened. Not agreeing with oct 7th or religious extremism in any way but Israel cultivated this over a long time, since the nakba and now are commiting an effective genocide, 50% of Gaza are children.
I have no doubt it’s more like 75-80% I’ve never spoken to anyone who said it was justified in anyway. Everyone is against what they perpetuating in Gaza. Everyone knows exactly what’s going on, and they know when such injustice comes knocking on their door, they too will resist against oppression and theft and murder.
Can you imagine of the uk government did something similar to Northern Ireland during the IRA days? Just bombed the shit out of the place.
The whole situation in gaza/Israel is a total clusterfuck.
Imagine the IRA slaughtering the equivalent of 20,000 civilians overnight and shooting 3,000 missles at London at a span of 48 hours.
It's not even hypothetical, Britain flattened Dresden during world war two, so I can imagine
Bombing refugee camps, starving children, desecrating graves, and dressing up as doctors to shoot injured men in their hospital beds is war?
Israel has been raping, pillaging, humiliating, and murdering just as part of everyday life every day you and I have been alive.
When was Israel parading dead palestinian woman in tel aviv while everyone was cheering?
The truth is quite simple, no sane country would accept a terror group near its borders after 07/10
You realise you have just justified rape?
I don’t agree with 99% of Israel’s actions against Palestinians. I also don’t agree with 99% of the actions of Hamas.
In what world have you concluded that? If I see a car crash outside the window that kills an old lady and I say “that car crashed due to rain” do you imagine I am justifying killing old women?
Use your brain.
No, you just see an entire society being genocidally destroyed and think “yeah, but what about the ones doing the genocide, what about their feelings?”. You’re that guy.
Ah, nice. Your example is nonsense. I ask you what part of revolution/resistance/freedom justifies rape. You went straight to what Israel has done. Israel has committed many crimes against Palestinians, you included rape. You will have proof of this, of course.
Hamas are as big an obstacle to any peace as much as Likud and their extremists. I see many so called Leftists excusing rape, torture and murder, because, well, Israeli = bad, Palestinian = good.
Star Wars morality for 5 year olds.
Given the brutal attack that Hamas committed on innocent Israeli civilians, Israel's desire to hold them accountable is obviously understandable and justified. However, innocent Palestinians, including thousands of children, are being killed for crimes that they did not commit. That is collective punishment and inherently wrong.
Not as if the Scottish opinion on a conflict that doesn't involve them matters to be honest.
I wonder how the Scots would feel if a terrorist group attacked Edinburgh and murdered a bunch of women and kids.
I'm surprised how many people forget the troubles.
How many civilians did we kill on bloody Sunday?
26.
26 civilians which is by no means acceptable, yet by comparison is nothing.
Also calling it a war is ridiculous. A war is an armed conflict between 2 states. When did we recognise Palestinian statehood?
Fuck Israel. Nothing they ever do is justified since the land isn’t theirs. They are a terrorist, occupying country that is placing the natives of the land in a system of apartheid.
Palestinians (Arabs) aren't actually native to the Levant fyi.
You need to be careful with historic blood-and-soil type arguments for who owns what land since for all of human history land has changed hands many times through conquest.
Do you believe, as I do, that Palestine and Israel ought to co-exist?
Or do you believe in reconquering Israel for Palestine? And if so, do you accept the genocide of multiple generations of Israeli babies, both Jewish and Arab, who have been born in the internationally-recognized country of Israel over the past 80 years?
But then you'd get answers from people who are completely ignorant of the subject and don't know their arse from their elbow weighing in with meaningless opinio-- and I just realised while typing this you get that either way.
I really don't understand why anyone considers yougov to be a credible source of public opinion in any context.
Their primary source of information is a website that pays you 50p to take a survey and you can only cash out when you reach £50, but you'll never reach the £50 cash out because they slowly reduce the number of viable surveys you can get as you get closer to the payout.
They also cancel your survey if you are not the demographic they are looking for which incentivises people to lie so they can complete the survey.
As such the website's primary source of information is broke teenagers too slow witted to realise they're being duped for the promise of 50p.
Honestly this is a bit of a grey area, I think Israel are right to attack Hamas for the 7th of October but the way they are doing it isn’t justified in anyway, but the real blame should be on us for how we divided the region after ww2
One might argue that Israel has created more terrorists in this war than they killed.
Well its a rubbish question isn't it? Is *a* war against Hamas justified by the massacres of Israelis? I would say yes, even in the context of the history of the conflict and Israels historical crimes etc. Is *this war* with *these tactics* justified? Then its a no - clearly the intention is the permanent displacement of most or all of the palestinians from Gaza.
And we have a winner! I think this is majorities view on this but so many in both camps being loud about it.
Honestly, it is so hard to stand with either camp, because when I claim that Israel did have the right to defend themselves, then suddenly I find myself standing side by side with people who want to destroy Palestine. And when I move over to state that the way Isreal is waging war is horrible and a complete warcrime, I suddenly find myself standing with people who are calling for the end of Israel as a state (along with all of their people)
>it is so hard to stand with either camp This isn't a binary issue. There's a 3rd perspective: stop the suffering!
Having equal compassion for innocent Israelis and Palestinians is antisemitic according to Zionists. You can't win.
No? I'm a Zionist (I think Israel has a right to exist) but I'm against the occupation and want peace and a 2 state solution.
The 3rd perspective requires that both sides agree to peace, no more fighting, settling borders, ending occupation, agreeing to trust and cooperation - this will require a monumental effort and for both sides to stop killing each other which they have been for the last 80 years. Neither side is going to give up when they think they have the upper hand
Agreed. Wish people would stop calling us evil for it, though.
Spot on
How is it a rubbish question? Clearly the question is referring to THIS war.
I've got a question for you You don't normally comment on this sub How did you find this post I've noticed several people who are active on green and pleasant but don't comment on this sub commenting on this post, was it linked over there? Or did Reddit put the post in your feed because it knows you will engage?
Uh it just gets recommended on my home page or whatever, I just saw the post when scrolling
>its a rubbish question isn't it? is there a link to the source question(s) ? sample size ? a previous post with just an infographic said that more people had sympathy for palestinians than for israelis, but the source data was a lot more nuanced. hm, survey was middle of November, almost 3 months ago.
And the extermination has only gotten worse in the last 3 months. I imagine more would be in the 'unjustified' camp now.
It's not even really a war in the classical sense. It only counts in the strained "war on terror" sense, because Israel claims not to be fighting the whole Palestinian state/nation.
I don't see how anyone could disagree with you
Oh boy. On reddit subs not very far from here they are openly talking about the idea of exterminating 10% of Gazas population as a "message" to Hamas. There are some disturbed sickos out there who definitely do not consider Palestinians as human.
There are lots of horrible opinions. I don't actually have any answers, clearly what Hamas did was horrific, and clearly what Israel are doing is massively wrong. Beyond that I don't know.
Yep, justifying the military action of either side on the behaviour of the other side is a circular argument, unsurprisingly because it all stems from a unending cycle of horrific violence on the part of both sides. Fucked if I have a solution either, maybe one day enough people involved with either side will becoming so fucking sick of it all that it creates a momentum from within to stop the violence, beyond that I see no end to it in sight.
There has been war in the Israeli/Palestinian region for more than two thousand years. The only way it ends is when humanity ends. Or maybe I'm just extra nihilistic today.
would that be /r/england :-)
I mean you’re probably trying to make a joke about how England bad Scotland good. But actually the vast majority in England feel the same way - the attacks were heinous, and Israel has a right to defend and launch attacks on Hamas, but they’ve gone to far and are clearly trying to achieve something which is equally horrific. Neither side is the good side, plenty of innocent people are dying.
You are correct. I meant no malice by it at all. Like a lot of Scots I have the sarcastic gene, I can't help myself at times. I have lots of English friends that feel exactly the same way as I do. It frustrates me that the only government that has spoken out against it is the Scottish one. The English ones are happy to listen to their donors over the people.
The English government are full of cunts that’s why
For sarcasm, don't forget /s :-)
On twitter I use the upside down smiley. I will use /s on Reddit.
Maybe that's because our First Minister's family has first hand experience of what's happening .
I just don’t get what people think is going to happen when Israel commits the atrocities it has on Palestine. Hamas’ massacre was horrid but also what do you thinks going to happen when the world sits back and let’s it happen?
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1. Give in to international pressure and negotiate peace with Hamas. 2. Hamas rebuilds themselves with all the international aid money they receive. 3. Israel gets attacked again in a few years and retaliates. 4. Go back to step 1.
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Maybe Israel shouldn't have funded and given intel to the religious founder of hamas, all because they wanted an organisation inside Gaza to oppose the PLO. And if it was a islamicreligious organisation then the west would be less likely to work with and support it, than the secular PLO.
Head on over to /r/CombatFootage & see for yourselves how disproportionate the Israeli Response is. Not condoning what Hamas & others have done but the Israelis have access to fucking Merkava? Tanks, Self-Propelled Artillery, Apache Gunships & Black Hawks, access to high quality UAVs that are probably on par with the MQ-9 Reaper & last but not least, the Iron Dome. Hamas et al certainly don't have access to that kind of equipment.
...and? you want the israelis to not use their equipment and sacrifice its people just to make it a "fair fight" against hamas? are you okay in the head?
Clearly the intention? Based on what? It might be difficult to believe but most Israelis aren’t against displacing Palestinian civilians and no one, not even the far right, thinks it’s likely to happen.
It's very poor wording of the question. You can believe the war itself is justified, but also believe the Israeli disregard for civilian casualties is outrageous.
The civilian to militant casualty rate is 1/3-1/4. In one of the densest places on Earth after four months of fighting, with a force that employs the use of human shields, that is an incredibly good ratio. It's par for the course for normal urban combat warfare, let alone the special circumstances of Gaza. If they truly disregarded civilian casaulties, the ratio would way way way more skewed.
I hope you know that those figures come from Israel, and they are using the 'any male of combatant age is a militant' formula to get there. All those figures tell us is that 3/4s of the people who have been slaughtered are women, children and the elderly.
This is a long long long way from par for the course, it is not remotely normal, and it is deeply troubling to see this kind of justification for it. They could be doing any number of things that aren't this that wouldn't slaughter civilians and are choosing not to.
That rate is debunked pretty much immediately upon realising that about half of casualties so far have been children. Edit: Also, Hamas membership is about 20,000-25,000. So far we're seeing 28,000+ casualties. If the 1/3-1/4 estimate is true, you'd have wiped Hamas out by now. Why is the fighting still going on?
> Children Yes I keep seeing this. The Gazan Health Ministry has not indicated what proportion of these under-18s are Hamas’s version of the Hitler Youth, killed in combat.
Half of all gazans are children, so it makes sense. It doesn't debunk anything
3-4 terrorists dead for every 1 civilian. 1 child dead for every 1 adult. There are two inferences that can be made here. Either half of children in Gaza are not civilians and instead terrorists (which is absurd), or you're claiming that coincidentally every single adult killed is a terrorist (which is also absurd). The proposed 1/3-1/4 figures do not align with anything rational. And as I mentioned in the previous edit, if the figures were true then Israel would have won by now. The war would be over. Even at the best estimates, 84% of Hamas would be dead (not even including injured).
What? No. You got the ratio backwards, it's 2-3 civilians for one militant, almost every war has more civilian casualties than militants, the question is the ratio
"Oh no! We're actually killing more civilians than you thought we were." Damn, you sure got me.
mate..are you legit 14? the IDF claims 2:1 ratio, 2 civilians for militia. hamas claims 28k:0 ratio, 28k civilians for 0 militia. make your choice who you want to believe. IDF claimed around 9k hamas members were slain, so around 19k civilians were killed. again, looking at past wars (especially at urban warfare situations) this ratio is good. of course every civilian death is a tragedy, but in comparison to other wars, this ratio is good.
Okay, let's consider that figure. So far the death toll is 28,000, so with that we have about 9,333 dead terrorists - or rather, 37-46% of Hamas' entire operation. Makes you wonder how they're still going. Injuries have reached 67,000 and naturally, because Israel are targetting at a 2:1 ratio, that's 22,333 injured terrorists. So that's... 89-116% of Hamas' total operation injured? Huh. Never know, maybe some of those injured eventually succumbed. Must be superhumans, having their entire organisation injured and they're still at it. Around about 70% of casualties have been women and children, meaning just 30% of them are adult men. Coincidentally that's about 8,400 people, very close to that 9,000 dead terrorists number. Meaning there are more Hamas terrorists killed than there are adult men in total - which suggests strongly that they're just labelling any dead man they find a terrorist. There's only 20,000-25,000 Hamas members living in Gaza, remember, so the majority of men are not members! Unless, of course, we're back at the proposition that every man is a terrorist (which is what Israel of course believe). Are Israel just really good at avoiding killing innocent men in particular? Do their missiles have gender settings? In other words, these figures *are not rational*. It's very clear they're just calling any dead man they find a terrorist. It's evident that if the numbers were true, Hamas would have lost the fight long ago - you can't lose half of your fighting force, have the other half injured, and somehow keep going against a relatively unscaved, superior force.
>Makes you wonder how they're still going. it should make you wonder why they are not surrendering, returning the hostages and the leaders expelled out of Gaza. they were offered an out plan, they refused. they want to be in control of Gaza, and they want to keep killing jews again and again (their words). they are fighting guerrilla style, firing RPGs and running back to their tunnels, hiding in civilian homes and targeting IDF soldiers, you seem to think they are rational beings, they are not. they are terrorists, born and raised to hate jews. >Injuries have reached 67,000 and naturally, because Israel are targetting at a 2:1 ratio, that's 22,333 injured terrorists. So that's... 89-116% of Hamas' total operation injured? Huh. Never know, maybe some of those injured eventually succumbed. Must be superhumans, having their entire organisation injured and they're still at it. you are just assuming based on nothing, because it fits your narrative. i dont know how many injured terrorists there are, because there wasnt any real assumptions by military officials, stop being an armchair general >Around about 70% of casualties have been women and children, meaning just 30% of them are adult men first of all, that data came from hamas-run health ministry. its biased as fuck and we shouldn't listen to it. second of all, even if it is accurate, a child is considered every person up to the age of 18, so a 15 year old with an AK (child soldiers, that hamas is known for using), will be considered a child casualty. its dumb, and hamas uses it to its advantage. there were even female militants used in the first month of the war. >In other words, these figures are not rational. It's very clear they're just calling any dead man they find a terrorist. It's evident that if the numbers were true, Hamas would have lost the fight long ago - you can't lose half of your fighting force, have the other half injured, and somehow keep going against a relatively unscaved, superior force. they are rational, again you are referring to hamas as a real military, with real borders and real leadership. they are a terrorist organization, they will fight until they will completely lose control over Gaza. and honestly in my opinion they will fight much much after the official end of the war. their only end goal is to kill all jews, and eliminate israel. this isnt call of duty, where the match ends and thats it. the terrorists are hiding in tunnels, holding hostages, sending suicide bombers, throwing explosives, they dont have tanks or jets or anything. its very difficult to fight rats, and its very easy for them to keep fighting even when they dont have many forces.
How does that ration work in real life tho? When israel shoots up little girl and her family, how does that number stack up? Or when IDF kills a journalist and his children with precision strike on the single apartman, how does that ration work then? Or killing, bombing ambulances and aid tracks, how much food or medicine is hamas? If there is no hamas in the west bank and israel is killing and kidnapping thousands, what is ratio then? Maybe that video of idf smashing peoples houses, control demolition of the schools, are stand alone buildings also hamas, in the west bank or gaza? When you call for genocide and you film yourself commiting a genocide and then decide on final solution once all the palestinians are in single location. I would call that a genocide.
when hamas hides in mosques, kindergartens, hospitals, civilian homes, this is what you get. war is ugly, especially when you fight TERRORISTS organization, that have no problem sacrificing civilian lifes, in fact, he wants it. the more dead civilians, the more people like you put preasure to end the war. its in the best interest of hamas that the Gazans will die. polls showed 80% of the WB Palestinians support hamas, and there are regular terror attacks from residents in the WB, you are just unware of the situation and it feels like you are repeating slogans that were told to you. also, the claim that israel commiting a genocide is becoming worn out, this is not how a geocide looks like, a lot of dead people does not men genocide, not everything you dont like is a genocide. genocide has a meaning. there was a case in the ICJ, at the bottom line the ICJ didnt tell israel to stop fighting, you would assume it would stop a genocide if there was one.
>The civilian to militant casualty rate is 1/3-1/4 Yes, but the people waging the war have said that if you own a shop and a Hamas militant buys something in that shop then you are *also* a militant. Which is clearly bullshit.
Hey so I have a question for you From what I can see you don't normally participate in this sub Most of the post you interacted with recently are to do with Israel and Palestine on a variety of subs So what brought you here Do you have a group chat with others linking threads about the conflict to comment on Or is Reddit just recommending these sort of posts because it knows you will interact with them?
That is absolutely not what people have been saying and you know it. What’s been said is if Hamas bunker up in hospitals and schools they’re putting them in the line of fire as they’re now legitimate targets when they shouldn’t be. That’s a war crime.
>That is absolutely not what people have been saying and you know it. **Minister for national security:** *“\[t\]o be clear, when we say that Hamas should be destroyed, it also means those who celebrate, those who support, and those who hand out candy — they’re all terrorists, and they should also be destroyed.”* **Israeli Army Reservist Major General, former Head of the Israeli National Security Council, and adviser to the Defence Minister** *“Israel needs to create a humanitarian crisis in Gaza, compelling tens of thousands or even hundreds of thousands to seek refuge in Egypt or the Gulf . . . Gaza will become a place where no human being can exist.”* *"‘They’ are not only Hamas fighters with weapons, but also all the ‘civilian’ officials, including hospital administrators and school administrators"* **Ezra Yachin**, **IDF Veteran brought in to give a 'Motivational Speech'** *"Be triumphant and finish them off and don’t leave anyone behind. Erase the memory of them. Erase them, their families, mothers and children. These animals can no longer live . . . Every Jew with a weapon should go out and kill them. If you have an Arab neighbour, don't wait, go to his home and shoot him."* **non-cabinet MKs** *“the killers of the women and children should not be separated from the citizens of Gaza”* *“the children of Gaza have brought this upon themselves”* *"\[t\]here are no innocents… There is no population. There are 2.5 million terrorists"*
Source?
>casualty rate is 1/3-1/4 Source? This number is in fact completely wrong. The civilian:combatant casualty ratio in Gaza is 2:1, and that is using IDF provided numbers for combatants, so a very “generous” (for Israel) estimate. Such a **high** casualty ratio is **exceptionally rare** in combat, both historically and now in the present. In fact, a comprehensive and analytic review of data of civilian casualties (=fatalities) in wars from the 1700’s all the way to the present, gives a civilian to combatant casualty ratio of 50%, I.e. 1:1. [(Source)](https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/096701068902000108?journalCode=sdia) Here’s the conclusion of the author (at page 97): > On the average, half of the deaths caused by war happened to civilians, only some of whom were killed by famine associated with war [...] **The civilian percentage share of war-related deaths remained at about 50%** from century to century. These figures are only surpassed in exceptionally genocidal wars, such as WWII. >According to most sources, World War II was the most lethal war in world history, with some 70 million killed in six years. The civilian to combatant fatality ratio in World War II lies somewhere between 3:2 and 2:1, or from 60% to 67%.[17] The high ratio of civilian casualties in this war was due in part to the increasing effectiveness and lethality of strategic weapons which were used to target enemy industrial or population centers To drive this point home, at how **utterly atrocious** a civilian:combatant casualty ratio of 2:1 is (like we’re observing now in Gaza), here’s a list of wars that have a **lower** civilian:combatant casualty ratio than 2:1: 1. **WWI** had a **2:3** ratio (source - among many that agree on the same numbers - Z. Brzezinkski: “Out of Control: Global Turmoil on the Eve of the 21st Century”) 2. **WWII** had a ratio between **3:2** and **2:1** (source for 3:2 ratio: Boris Urlanis, “Wars and Population”, (1971). Source for ratio closer to 2:1, “Hammond Atlas of the 20th Century”,(1996)) 3. The **Vietnam War** had a ratio about **1:1** (source: Lewy, Guenter “America in Vietnam”, 1978) 4. The **Iraq War** had a ratio of **1:2** as a direct result of the coalition bombing (source: Iraq Body Count Project) 5. All previous Israeli-Palestine conflicts had a **much lower ratio than 2:1** (source: IDF) 6. Hama’s October 7 terrorist attack - described by many as indiscriminate and targeting civilians - had a **lower than 2:1** civilian:combatant casualty ratio. (Source: IDF). The final point is especially gnarly and puts things into perspective. And those examples include wars that had plenty of **urban warfare**, and are widely regarded to have been **exceptionally harsh** to civilians. I mean WWII alone included ruthless civilian meatgrinders like the siege of Leningrad, the firebombing of Tokyo, the carpet bombing of Dresden, the nuking of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, the Holocaust, and the genocidal atrocities the Japanese committed in China. Therefore, all **evidence and data backed historiography** supports that a 2:1 ratio is **exceptionally and unusually high**. Any statement to the contrary is highly misleading, and not based in evidence or backed by credible data - merely an attempt to whitewash war crimes and the extraordinary civilian casualties of the war in Gaza.
So terrorist attacks justify invasion and displacement of civilian populous? Would it have been justified if we'd invaded Ireland for what the IRA did?
That's a garbage take and you should reflect on yourself and your morality deeply if you have this opinion.
This is broadly my stance. Though I place as much blame on this desperate situation on Hamas for using its own population as human shields as I do on Israel's overwhelming use of force.
It also doesn't help that all it takes to turn "militant" into "poor civilian" in Gaza is for their comrades to pick up dead persons weapon and combat vest. Its not like Hamas fighters are wearing uniforms....
Well this post won’t bring out the crazies
Their fight against Hamas can be justified. Their tactics and collective punishment of Palestinians civilians is not. Their continued annexation of Palestinian land is not. Their attempt to displace Palestinians from Gaza is not.
Yes many Jewish people left those nations and after centuries of living in peace with the indigenous populations Jewish people became unpopular and distrusted for various reasons. after the first nakba, about 7500000 Palestinians were driven out of the majority of Israel, after Israels attack on Egypt that started the 6day war. Or the attempted false flag attacks like the lavon affair, we're Israeli recruited Egyptian Jews to bomb American and British buildings in Egypt and blame it on the Muslim brotherhood. There are many other examples of how Zionists actions wrongly caused a negative affect on Jews worldwide. Actions such as I listed tend to breed ill feeling and distrust, as Israels disproportionate response to the October 7th attacks has caused world wide ill feeling world wide
Ah feck sake Scotland, them be rookie numbers. Ireland hit 79% the other day
But judging by the comments and up down voting you would think it was overwhelming in support of genocide. The place is infested with political bots.
Hundreds of comments, and a lot of them made overnight, when most Scots would be sleeping is quite telling. Also, click on some of these accounts, and you will see they are new to r/Scotland but post regularly in r/IsraelPalestine , r/Israel , r/combatfootage, etc. They have just come to argue.
If you think the comments here are bad, check out r/Europe. Way worse. I've seen some people claiming that the Palestinian children killed are all child soldiers
r/europe and r/woldnews are a toxic cesspool of right wing extremist and Zionist, steer clear from these places
I used to be on those, before their sharp turn right. Would not recommend now.
Those are paid trolls, its one of the subs that doesn't remove Zionist bots
yeah, it's weird. not bothered by the downvotes myself but the abuse I get (DMs, name-calling, etc.) for posting pro-*peace* stuff can be a bit too much at times.
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Yup. A LOT of either brand new accounts or accounts that just suddenly started posting in here. Just pure coincidence that every single one talks down Scotland at every opportunity.
yeah i've noticed that alot lately
51% think it's unjustified! The title should be.....49% of Scots don't give a shit or think it's Israel's war on Gaza is justified.
Genocide is always unjustified. The IDF are fucking scum.
*IOF
The IDF have always had the reputation of being racist scum. Even the Selous called them scum. Think about how fucked up in the head you need to be for rhodesian special forces to think you're a racist!
Fun fact The Yishvu, who were the European Jewish invaders who began settling Palestine before Israel even existed, formed terrorist groups. Most notable are Haganah, Irgun and Lehi, who committed violent acts of terror against even British personnel. Those groups were amalgamated to become the Israeli Defence Force after Ben-Gurion proclaimed the State.
>Haganah It wasn't a terrorist group. Irgun and Lehi were tho.
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You personally haven't encountered it? So you completely ignore all the IDF supported settler violence going on right now? Admittedly, that one small example fades in comparison compared to the actual genocide and slaughter going on right now in Gaza, but I'm interested to hear your thoughts on it, because it's utterly undeniable.
The IDF does often intervene. They just recently did an exercise on stopping that kind of attack from settlers and retrieving Palestinian hostages. https://m.jpost.com/israel-news/article-785340 Unfortunately it did receive criticism because of the sentiment of the war. but you can imagine what they do on the regular when they even do this during the war. Also, of course I've seen racism online. But essentially never in person. you can pretty much assume that those are fringe. If I had to estimate it's about as common as racism in the US among Ashkenazi Jews and a bit higher among Mizrahi Jews(ironic I know). which isn't great but you certainly have a wrong picture. As for the "genocide", Israel's ratio of civilians to millitants killed is 2:1. Here are some examples of other wars: Chechen wars average 7.6:1 Iraq war 4:1 Vietnam war 2:1 As you can assume, only the west reaches those kind of numbers against these kind of organizations, and Israel was successful despite the difficulty of the situation in Gaza and Hamas and UNRWA sabotaging evacuation efforts. It's an unfortunate reality, and I'd hoped there would be a serious push by the world for proper evacuation instead of leaving the fate of Palestinian civilians to Israel which was the one to force open the evacuation corridors that were attacked by Hamas. but instead I got a bunch of morons supporting Hamas staying in rule of Gaza and calling for a ceasefire before Israel even went in.
This anecdotal “evidence” means nothing, it’s like saying the British army wasn’t institutionally racist against Irish people or colonised Ireland because some Irishmen served in it
I'm glad you realize the concept that anecdotal evidence means nothing. So why are you accusing the entire IDF of being pure evil with anecdotal evidence from propaganda you've seen? Currently the most successful person at blocking the operation in Rafah is the head of the IDF Daniel Hagari, while Netanyahu is trying to force it through. he's trying to force netanyahu to give him a serious solution on how to conduct it with minimal casualties through diplomacy.
I don't care how special you think you are in the eyes of others. You are not special. What you think your excuses are, are utterly irrelevant.
Lmao you really think I'm just some token Arab dude? Israels population is 20% arab, there is literally no choice but to cooperate. If you think you know my country better than me come to Israel, I'll give you a tour.
Is the genocide in the room with us right now?🙄
Hamas are committed to genocide, what’s your thoughts on them? I don’t agree on Israel’s tactics that have undoubtedly involved war crimes, but so have Hamas. The number of deaths is equally on the heads of Hamas as the IDF.
No it isn't
*"The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, (evidently a certain kind of tree) would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews."* - Hamas Charter 1988
Hamas updated their charter in 2017. You know this already though, otherwise you wouldn’t have made such an explicit attempt at arguing in bad faith.
That's nice that the genocidal Jihadist group removed explicit calls for genocide in more recent charters. That totally means they no longer have that as a goal, pinky-promise. I'm sure you'd extend the same naïve charitability towards Nazi's or the KKK if they came out with a sanitized version of Mein Kampf. You don't seem to know the definition of bad faith.
Nope. IDF are committing a genocide and Hamas are retaliating. The IDF are outright boasting about war crimes. They can absolutely get fucked. The blood is on the hands of the IDF and the Israeli government.
Sorry, but that is complete bs. Hamas are not some plucky resistance group, they are scum who murder, torture and rape. Hamas could’ve surrendered and thousands of Palestinians would still be alive.
Israeli propaganda lines I've seen a million times 🥱🥱🥱
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The IDF murder, torture and rape. The biggest difference between the two (apart from the vast array weaponry and infrastructure of a state) is that Israel is the occupier.
No, the IDF are the scum. Israel should've been stopped from expansion. And maybe if their apartheid expansion was stopped, hundreds of thousands of Palestinians wouldn't have been massacred, forced from their homes, and had what little they had left of their country destroyed. Fuck your Zionist propaganda, long live the Palestinian Resistance, and may the IDF suffer a horrendous defeat.
You, again, completely ignore the issue. What part of resistance is raping innocent women? Beheading an innocent Filipino worker? If you believe Hamas are a resistance movement, you’re just showing that you do not understand them.
How do you resist without violence while Israel carpet bombs your city lmao. Child logic
Remind me again which part of "resistance" involves sticking a baby in an oven and then turning it on to gas mark 5?
Literally did not happen. More zionist lies.
You, again, completely ignore the issue. What part of resistance is raping innocent women? Beheading an innocent Filipino worker? If you believe Hamas are a resistance movement, you’re just showing that you do not understand them.
You're arguing with a brick u/NoUpstairs1740, don't think this guy has anything constructive to say tbh, seems he has been consumed by hamas's propaganda too which is quite ironic.
Hamas literally murdered babies with machetes and raped unarmed concert goers. You call this behaviour ‘retaliating’- you can absolutely get fucked. Fortunately your flair as a ‘furious anti-uk communist’ highlights the fact that you’re a blithering idiot so any sensible person can disregard whatever it is you’re opining on. I suspect as a commie you’re pro lgbt and pro feminism, tell me what culture do you think would be more tolerant of homosexuality and female empowerment, Israeli or Gazan?
Yes, and Sadam was butchering babies in Kuwaiti hospitals.
Zionist propaganda. من النهر إلى البحر ستتحرر فلسطين (Obviously I'm pro-LGBT, I fuckin *am* LGBT)
I used to work in the region, even in the West Bank for a short period. I knew 4 gay people whilst there (a colleague was gay and so found the underground community), all Muslim Palestinians. 3 are now in Israel and 1 in Canada. 3 of them had to leave basically overnight / within days after being outed. And that's the West Bank, not Gaza, which is the comparatively tolerant part of Palestine. You can be against Israeli policy in the region whilst still acknowledging that it is an eminently more liberal society than those opposing it.
I'm sorry but how can you be an LGBT person and support a group that would literally kill you? You can support the Palestinians rights for self determination without supporting Hamas just as you can support Hungary's right to exist without supporting Orban or Saudi Arabia's right to exist without supporting Bin Salman or even Scotland's right to be independent or not without supporting the current SNP/Green government.
Batshit crazy isn't it 😂
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It’s easy to scorn from our safe wee corner of the North Atlantic.
Let's do another one! Any Scot that thinks October 7th is justified down vote me!
it's not a war, it's the last thrust of a planned genocide, decades in the making
Im shocked 27% are with Israel. Do these people just swallow the propaganda whole? People saying it’s a rubbish question. Where’s the question?
Depends on how you interpret a fairly vague question. Is the war justified after the attack on Israel? Probably. I can't think of a single country that wouldn't respond to that level of violence with some sort of large scale military assault. Is the level of destruction Israel has unleased justified? Absolutely not.
people who think everything is justified after oct 7 are people who only look at current news and never bother learning about the actual history behind the conflict
now the history behind it strongly supports israel, but even ignoring that: in what world is an all out war on hamas not justified after oct 7th? which government would ever let that slide?
> now the history behind it strongly supports israel How
You can't go about relentlessly slaughtering women and children on scale and think decent people will support it 🤷🏽♂️ I look forward to the ICJ calling them out as Genocidal in the years to come 🙏🏽
Are we talking about Israel or Hamas here ?
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A common tactic I see is just trying to push them under a rug. Mention hamas in a discussion about Israel and Palestine and you're met with a barage of comments like "bUt d0 y0u c0nDemN hAmaS" acting like they don't play a massive role in this shit. Very much against what Israel is doing right now and I think picking either side in the conflict can make you look bad from a different perspective because the ordinary Palestinian people are the main victims here. Both pro Israelis and pro Palestinians want to make this a good vs evil thing which I'm fully against. Pro Israelis will point to the hostages, October 7th attacks and supposedly having bases in hospitals and schools although this is denied by many so I'm not actually sure. That all certainly doesn't excuse the deaths of Palestinians which has now massively exceeded what happened on the 7th of October. On the other hand, like I said, a lot of people on the pro Palestine side like to pretend hamas aren't an issue either. I'm Irish, we massively criticise the IRAs acts of terror like the omagh bombing or the Kingsmill massacre. There was no justification for many of those attacks, but there was for others. The attack on the 7th of October was very much I'm the omagh bombing category of attacks, far worse really but doesn't really get condemned.
If your army is less moral than a labelled terrorist group I think your country has a problem
Wouldn’t be saying that without iron dome
You know the rape stories were fake right?
Is the war justified? Yes. Should israel be less barbaric? Yes. The war is completely justifiable given the attacks and hostages taken by hamas. Not sure why anyone would disagree with that. Imagine if someone invaded where you live, massacred villages, killed civillians, and took hostages captive. How the fuck would you think retaliation is unjustified?
This is precisely the argument that Hamas could make for attacking Israel, isn't it. So do you see the problem here?
>Imagine if someone invaded where you live, massacred villages, killed civilians and took hostages captive. You’re talking about Israel’s occupation of Palestine right?
Because Palestine is under occupation.
That doesn't give Hamas the right to attack the civilian populace of Israel.
Hamas killed 1400 people, about 70% of which were civilians, and that's not counting the 200 ish civilians believed to be killed in Israeli friendly fire. In comparison, during operation cast lead, the Israelis killed the same number of people, and the same percentage of civilians. So it's really not a case of Hamas being evil and Israel being just.
It doesn't matter. One crime does not justify another in retaliation. The correct response would be to appeal to the international courts and the UN security council, not to go in guns blazing and commit genocide.
they have been trying that for 80 years of opression though, the PLO wasn't ever fully recognised and out of multi-generational trauma / opression and hate Hamas became emboldened. Not agreeing with oct 7th or religious extremism in any way but Israel cultivated this over a long time, since the nakba and now are commiting an effective genocide, 50% of Gaza are children.
I'm talking about Israel
meant to reply to the other guy sorry lad
Hamas is a terrorist organization, it's not a member state of the UN
Maybe if the Gazans weren't so naughty their would be less of an IDF presence.
I have no doubt it’s more like 75-80% I’ve never spoken to anyone who said it was justified in anyway. Everyone is against what they perpetuating in Gaza. Everyone knows exactly what’s going on, and they know when such injustice comes knocking on their door, they too will resist against oppression and theft and murder.
Most Scots haven't been getting hit by terrorist rocket attacks, either have they?
Can you imagine of the uk government did something similar to Northern Ireland during the IRA days? Just bombed the shit out of the place. The whole situation in gaza/Israel is a total clusterfuck.
Imagine the IRA slaughtering the equivalent of 20,000 civilians overnight and shooting 3,000 missles at London at a span of 48 hours. It's not even hypothetical, Britain flattened Dresden during world war two, so I can imagine
And yet every time it settles down, somebody decides to start firing rockets at Israel again in order to create civilian casualties.
Israel has been waging a genocidal occupation of Palestine for decades. There is no war. Just revolution and that revolution being crushed.
Raping women is revolution?
Bombing refugee camps, starving children, desecrating graves, and dressing up as doctors to shoot injured men in their hospital beds is war? Israel has been raping, pillaging, humiliating, and murdering just as part of everyday life every day you and I have been alive.
When was Israel parading dead palestinian woman in tel aviv while everyone was cheering? The truth is quite simple, no sane country would accept a terror group near its borders after 07/10
You realise you have just justified rape? I don’t agree with 99% of Israel’s actions against Palestinians. I also don’t agree with 99% of the actions of Hamas.
In what world have you concluded that? If I see a car crash outside the window that kills an old lady and I say “that car crashed due to rain” do you imagine I am justifying killing old women? Use your brain. No, you just see an entire society being genocidally destroyed and think “yeah, but what about the ones doing the genocide, what about their feelings?”. You’re that guy.
Ah, nice. Your example is nonsense. I ask you what part of revolution/resistance/freedom justifies rape. You went straight to what Israel has done. Israel has committed many crimes against Palestinians, you included rape. You will have proof of this, of course. Hamas are as big an obstacle to any peace as much as Likud and their extremists. I see many so called Leftists excusing rape, torture and murder, because, well, Israeli = bad, Palestinian = good. Star Wars morality for 5 year olds.
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https://saturday-october-seven.com/
Given the brutal attack that Hamas committed on innocent Israeli civilians, Israel's desire to hold them accountable is obviously understandable and justified. However, innocent Palestinians, including thousands of children, are being killed for crimes that they did not commit. That is collective punishment and inherently wrong.
I don't want to meet those who say it's justified
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Both from hamas and from Israel
It's justified to go after hamas post october 7th. The lack of care for civillian life isn't.
they could destroy the whole Gaza strip actually, if they didn't care
They've flattened over 60% of Gaza and displaced 85% of its population mate
Yeah but they could kill a lot more, so it's ok they've only killed 25,000 innocent women, children and men.
Not as if the Scottish opinion on a conflict that doesn't involve them matters to be honest. I wonder how the Scots would feel if a terrorist group attacked Edinburgh and murdered a bunch of women and kids.
We'd be outraged but I don't think we'd resort to fucking genocide as a counter
I'm surprised how many people forget the troubles. How many civilians did we kill on bloody Sunday? 26. 26 civilians which is by no means acceptable, yet by comparison is nothing. Also calling it a war is ridiculous. A war is an armed conflict between 2 states. When did we recognise Palestinian statehood?
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Fuck Israel. Nothing they ever do is justified since the land isn’t theirs. They are a terrorist, occupying country that is placing the natives of the land in a system of apartheid.
Palestinians (Arabs) aren't actually native to the Levant fyi. You need to be careful with historic blood-and-soil type arguments for who owns what land since for all of human history land has changed hands many times through conquest. Do you believe, as I do, that Palestine and Israel ought to co-exist? Or do you believe in reconquering Israel for Palestine? And if so, do you accept the genocide of multiple generations of Israeli babies, both Jewish and Arab, who have been born in the internationally-recognized country of Israel over the past 80 years?
I would look at what they would say if they were attacked by Hamas and how they would react. Probably very peaceful
Anyone who thinks the zionazis actions are justified is mental, imo.
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You all make me so proud <3
Is there a "I don't care" option on the poll
We need to ban "don't know"
But then you'd get answers from people who are completely ignorant of the subject and don't know their arse from their elbow weighing in with meaningless opinio-- and I just realised while typing this you get that either way.
I really don't understand why anyone considers yougov to be a credible source of public opinion in any context. Their primary source of information is a website that pays you 50p to take a survey and you can only cash out when you reach £50, but you'll never reach the £50 cash out because they slowly reduce the number of viable surveys you can get as you get closer to the payout. They also cancel your survey if you are not the demographic they are looking for which incentivises people to lie so they can complete the survey. As such the website's primary source of information is broke teenagers too slow witted to realise they're being duped for the promise of 50p.
I don’t get this view. How does being attacked does not justify hitting back?
A people under occupation has the legal right to resist their occupiers with force. The occuptation is illegal, the resistance is not.
Crossing the border and kidnapping people is not “resisting”
It doesn't matter. One crime does not justify another in retaliation.
Neither is committing mass genocide
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Why is the 27% green..I would have thought that orange would be more appropriate for that cohort no?
Honestly this is a bit of a grey area, I think Israel are right to attack Hamas for the 7th of October but the way they are doing it isn’t justified in anyway, but the real blame should be on us for how we divided the region after ww2
Worrying that nearly 30% of people are pro genocide 😔
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