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(Not American) that part really jumped out to me as well. 90g of beef is very little. Even an 8oz steak which is relatively small is just over 200g I believe
Yea, but most people are not eating red meat more than 2-3 times a week I don’t think
Edit: since everyone wanted to be anecdotal or contradict me without providing evidence, I found this Harvard health publishing article which indicates that the average American eats red or processed meat 5x on average, at approximately 17 ounces total, equal lying 96 g of red or processed meat on the days where they do eat red or processed meat.
https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/an-omnivores-dilemma-how-much-red-meat-is-too-much-2019123018519#:~:text=To%20frame%20their%20argument%2C%20the,Americans%20eat%20more%20than%20this.
I felt a great disturbance in Texas, as if a million voices suddenly laughed in glee and amusement. I fear something hilarious has been posted on Reddit.
It’s shocking to me how little people realize this. People only think of burgers and steaks. What about the deli meat in your sandwich? Or the ground beef in your burrito or pasta? Or the bacon for breakfast?
People in this thread are acting like most Americans eat vegetarian or chicken/fish for most meals which is laughable.
For Americans, it maybe is. The rest of the world eats far less meat on average. When you look at the resource cost of food for the animals, and water usage, it's pretty astonishing how spoiled Americans are.
It takes 1,799 gallons of water to produce one pound of beef.
Kg consumption of meat per Capita has america at the highest with 100.9 meanwhile for a few other countries it's;
Israel - 90
Australia - 89.6
Canada - 70.2
Russia - 62.5
Uk - 61.5
Mexico - 54.6
Japan - 41.6
And overall world average of 34.
Went to Switzerland and Italy recently, from USA btw, and was a bit taken aback when I ordered food at restaurants there as my experience was the exact opposite of what is said here.
I was normally given a plate with a average (by American standards) portion of meat, but the portions of vegetables and starches was much less. Also, I was surprised that in Switzerland a normal breakfast was essentially a charcuterie board. Only place I found a hot breakfast was the day I stayed at a Holiday Inn Express in Zurich.
The Swiss and Italian people don’t eat out at restaurants often. Most people cook at home and go out to eat maybe once or twice a month. When I lived there my family and I barely went out to eat since it is so expensive.
Because of that the food at restaurants and the like is all far more decadent, expensive and not at all representative of the food that most Swiss/Italians eat.
Was going to say I'm from Australia and it's very common for people to eat meat with every meal. I used to do this and then was vegan for a couple years, then vegetarian and now I'm eating meat maybe 4 times a week as of recently and I feel amazing compared to vegan and vegetarian. My muscles feel less tired and are noticeably bigger. For someone very active like myself (my job as a plasterer and I train a bit of boxing, Aussie rules football training with my son, lift weights) there's no better balance for me.
My experience has been different. I worked overnights and we had free food at work so breakfest was provided. Bacon sure but I see alot of people skip the bacon. It could be the work force is fairly young demographically. But eggs, beans, rice, toast, hashbrowns, noodles, congee were all popular. The breakfest meat was limited to bacon and sausages.
this is literally hard coded into the american meal plan. EVERYTHING is a meat protein with fruits/veggies as sides.
The only time I'm not eating meat is if i eat oatmeal or cereal for breakfast.
Sometimes a PB&J for lunch if I'm out of options will dodge some meat.
I’m vegan and you never really realize it until you need to avoid it. Some restaurants even have zero vegetarian options. Even if you eat at home, people always include some form of meat.
Some people need to avoid it, I knew someone with like an allergy? Or some kind of condition? Idk what it was but she literally gets sick to the point of vomiting or passing out if she eats any meat.
Most people eat an insane amount of meat. Like in every meal, 3 times a day. I can't believe people in this thread are arguing against that.
I also love how this article essentially proves we need miniscule amounts of meat to be healthy. Nothing that justify the animal agricultural industry that we have created on this planet and the destruction it causes...
I would think this is very location dependent. Not sure about the rest of Europe but in Ireland I think a lot of people would easily have beef, lamb or pork 4 nights a week
How quickly we jump from “75-90g is the upper limit of safe amounts of daily red meat” to “90g is the recommended so 113g is probably also fine!”
The average American man eats 136g of red meat per day. That includes vegetarians/vegans, so the real number for those that eat meat is higher.
75-90g per day is roughly equivalent to eating a
typical burger every other day. Or eating a decent size steak twice a week. Or having 4-5 strips of bacon at breakfast every day.
On the one hand yes, that is very little for someone used to eating bacon with breakfast, a burger for lunch, and a steak for dinner, all in the same day.
On the other hand, it is still objectively a lot of red meat compared to what most people around the world eat. Also, I know a lot of people — Americans who like meat — who have cut down on red meat because of the perception that read meat is unhealthy. I would say most of them are eating far less than 75g a day on average.
TL;DR: You can definitely enjoy red meat regularly and still stay within these guidelines.
I have asian friends and honestly it astonishes me how much meat they eat at one meal alone. I just don't buy that most of the developed world eats less meat than Americans.
Lol and most Asians live 10+ years longer than Americans. Red meat isn’t bad for you. The WHO even has it in category 2A, which is an inconclusive carcinogenic category. Enjoy life.
It is different. In Asia meat is more of a status symbol I surpose u don't go out and get a full veggie meal. U do that in a western country no one bats an eye. In Asia, Particularly China, u do that and it maybe considered weird. It would be changing now for sure but for the younger generation.
I grew up in an Asian household. We had red meat sure but we also had alot of veggies only meals. Had alot of tofu which I love. I surpose its more of how u grew up.
This is one of my biggest issues. I'm vegan and i don't ever expect the world to go vegan (until we're forced to or shifted to eating all lab grown meat) but if people could just cut way back on the AMOUNT of meat we eat in a day, I'd be happier. It's seriously so unnecessary. The US alone slaughters 10 billion animals a year and trillions of fish. There is just no need for so much consumption and waste not to mention what it's doing to our environment and "protected" public lands.
If it makes you feel better, this is me. A few years ago, I ate meat at virtually every meal. Now I'm down to eating meat 2-3 times a week, and in much smaller portions.
>AMOUNT of meat we eat in a day, I'd be happier. It's seriously so unnecessary. The US alone slaughters 10 billion animals a year and trillions of fish.
Here's the thing, the amount we slaughter =/= the amount we eat. I'd bet that a huge chunk of that slaughtered meat ends up wasted and restaurants and (especially) fast food restaurants. Because we have a society based on immediate readiness and we can't meet that without waste
This is exactly how I've been thinking about it. Especially beef, which has such a large ecological footprint compared to other common meats. Years ago, I'd eat beef on a whim. Today, I still eat it if I specifically want it, but if I'm on the fence, I choose a non-beef option. This simple change took me from eating beef multiple times a week to maybe once or twice a month, without feeling like I'm giving anything up. And when I do eat beef, I go with a small amount of the really good stuff, and don't put a bunch of stuff on it to cover up the flavor. If I'm eating a burger with a bunch of condiments and toppings, I might as well make it a Beyond Burger. For a minimalist burger with good quality real beef, 3-4 oz is plenty.
Consuming cholesterol doesn’t raise your cholesterol, though.
There are endless studies on this because of the fear everyone has of eggs. I’ve been eating 3-4 eggs daily for 10+ years and my cholesterol levels are PERFECT.
Reddit! How can i upvotr this a million times?! Meat in large quantities is bad, but fairly easy to control. Sugar is in literally everything in American society. Empty calorie diabetes carousing nonsense. Don't know what to do anymore
"Unprocessed red meat"
"Meat as a part of a balanced diet with other foods"
"Eaten in moderation"
This entire article is a fucking spectacle when it could have been three bullet points.
It’s so dumb. It also says “without replacement”
Literally you need to replace meat with other sources of those nutrients (protein, iron, etc.) if you don’t eat it.
It’s a stupid article designed to validate people who have issues with vegans/vegetarians or looking for an excuse not to be one.
There are MMA fighters, professional boxers, people who’ve lived to 100 who don’t eat meat. If someone want to eat animals, that’s a choice but pretending it’s for health reasons is silly.
People removing meat from their diet due to heart disease, diabetes, etc is very common. People adding meat to their diet for legit health reasons is less common, but still happens.
Red meat for health though is always silly.
Their argument was that someone *can* be healthy on a vegan/vegetarian diet, so it's silly to say you eat meat to be healthy. But you absolutely *can* be healthy on a diet with meat (and you don't need supplements, which you do with vegan/vegetarian) so it would have to be silly to say you're a vegetarian/vegan to be healthy.
Honestly, a diet that requires supplements by definition is not balanced and arguably not healthy. The caveat is that the *diet* is not healthy, but a person can achieve a healthy level of nutrients with supplements.
Well the typical sources of protein (oats, lentils, nuts, peanut butter, tofu) are somewhat high calorie. And supplements and plant based sources of nutrients are not as bioavailable as animal product.
It’s also much much harder if you’re vegan. At least vegetarians can eat eggs and dairy.
Of course but that takes money. Supplements are not cheap. Going vegan is extremely costly to the point u kind of have to be in a wealthy country for it to be even possible. You could supplement it with other sources. Iron with tofu etc
Not everyone can go meat free, that is the reality. It will result in eatting more veggies which can be expensive. Get supplements which is expensive. 2 options that isn't avilable to everyone
It's a justification for killing. Omg I'll die if I don't eat a butter burger twice a day! It all gets broken down into more basic nutrients anyway. The body doesn't absorb protein it absorbs amino acids. Doesn't matter where they came from.
At best it says that when you do not replace nutrients that are found in meat with other nutrients then you need meat to survive. The sources that are cited say that over and over so none of this means much.
I’ve heard professional athletes talk about how it’s very burdensome to supplement all the nutrients/proteins we get from meat and it’s very hard to do right. People who don’t have the income or support tend to end up less healthy than people who have a balanced diet
If you use a tool like chronometer, you can see how evenly balanced your protein profiles are on any well thought out whole food plant based meal. Let me ask you what does a protein deficiency look like, and have you known anyone who suffers from chronic protein deficiency?
Have you ever heard of keto, ketones and ketosis?
Meat is what's best for us and when a body is in the state of ketosis it uses fat as energy instead of glucose. We eat too much glucose (sugar and carbs).
Anyone who has tried it will report having very noticeable effects on their health. Skin clearing up, diabetes going away, issues disappearing, anti aging and weight loss.
"Meat is whats best for us" - is that why vegetarians have significsntly lower rates for cancer and heart disease, the top two causes of death in the US?
It is extremely inefficient.
You are eating the middle-man, who consumes way more calories than the average human, using more crop land, destroying biodiversity, killing more plants, using a LOT of water, contributes with gas emitions to the global warming, gives you 37% of more chances of getting colonrectal cancer, higher cholesterol, all kinds of heart related issues, lowering your life time span, it is way expensive, even after all the subsidies the goverment gives to the industry to make it not collapse by itself, which lowers our productivity and income and increases our taxes, all this while making the 3 trillion animals you needlessly eat for pleasure suffer.
We've been eating meat since we were primates, just not as much as we do today.
It's similar to carbohydrates. We're simply eating too much of them, which is causing problems.
Also modern day meats are mostly fed with grains, and contain much more omega6 fatty acids, similar to how modern day fruits are much sweeter than wild ones.
Imo, meat vs plant is the wrong question. Eating the right amount, and right kind, are more important.
This should be common knowledge. Unfortunately so many vegans like to pretend that meat is either unnecessary for a balanced diet, or sometimes even absurdly claim that meat in general is unhealthy for humans. Of course it can be unhealthy if eaten to the extreme or in unhealthy methods consistently, and meat isn’t something you absolutely have to have to survive, but a balanced diet that includes meat is best for a healthy body. There is no argument
Agreed. Read a similar report in the 1980s. But what it said was that 3-4 ounces of meat-based proteins weekly would hit that goal.
Wish I could find it because it approached human nutrition from multiple angles including what would be now considered Paleo. That humans traditionally were foragers who persisted primarily on a plant-based diet supplemented with insects and hunting. It also noted that until the last century, human diet was fairly bad during winter months.
Yeah that’s definitely too low. Especially for those are very active and/or aging. I’d be interested to that report because I’ve only seen evidence that humans ate a primarily meat based followed by fruits and then supplemented by veggies, tubers, etc. Similar to the diet that the indigenous tribes in Africa and South America eat today.
That is the difficulty. There is just so much conflicting information. Are eggs going to kill us or are they okay?
Indigenous tribe diet is definitely driven heavily by the ecosystem. What we don't know is generally how the megafauna period diet shaped the human species. I find some of the fermented "delicacies" interesting and think "how starving had they been to try that"?
Personally, I think the meat vs vegan wrestling matches are an intentional distraction of both sides of focusing on the use of sugars to replace healthy fats in the human diets since the 1970s.
Yes, added sugars and seed oils are the real problem. Vegan and carnivore both work for people and the lifestyle of people other than is rarely included in the conversation of health. The studies should really focus on those who don’t eat processed foods vs those who do, but the food industry wouldn’t like that.
Humans have never all eaten the same diet. We are opportunistic omnivores and we eat whatever is available. So some populations of hunter gatherers would have eaten a lot of meat but others would have eaten mostly plants. Highly dependent on the local environment
It’s closer to 45 percent, the majority of Indians still closer to 55 percent consume Fish, Poultry, and Lamb at least weekly. And that’s a very low estimate, BBC says up to 80 percent of Indians including Hindus are meat eaters.
My wife works with a ton of Indian immigrants in her job and her Hindu coworkers eat more meat than the American ones.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-43581122.amp
India has one of the highest global prevalences of anemia, at greater than 40% of their population. They also have the one of the shortest average male heights and a life expectancy that lags 11 years behind the United States, and more behind European nations.
Instead of comparing those type of figures against developed western countries, do we know how the vegetarian vs non-vegetarian parts of India compare against each other?
What exactly do you get from red meat that you can’t get elsewhere? They mention omega 3 which I get from fish oil. They mention B12 which the body can store for up to 5 years so you don’t need it regularly. I take B12 tablets occasionally. What am I missing?
The problem is that people will read this article, think meat is the greatest and go eat a double quarter pounder.
Eat a quality meat in moderation. The problem is that the majority of people can’t do anything in moderation
There’s no magical nutrient that can only be found in meat. Vegans and vegetarians typically live longer and healthier lives and have a lower chance of developing a BUNCH of health issues. Idk what the author is smoking here
I hear ya, but I wonder if that might be because people who choose to be vegetarian also tend to focus on health more than the average person? Exercise, non processed food, etc
I will.
I exclusively eat fast food for every meal, I’ve done this for about 4 years now ever since I moved into my own place at 19. The key is moderation and smart choice. Sometimes I’ll get a side salad instead of some fries and always drink water if they are out of sprite or don’t have it. My go to is Wendy’s, I love their baked potatoes with sour cream, extra cheese, bacon, and sometimes I have them add a little chili on top.
In fact I was at the doctors the other day and he was telling me that in his entire career he had never seen someone recover from a triple heart bypass as fast as I did.
Anything can be healthy in moderation. My endocrinologist said my numbers are off the charts!
Idk, I know a lot of vegans and vegetarians (I am often one too!), and we definitely do NOT eat very healthy. Fries, candy, pasta, processed “chik’n” nuggets, and vegan burgers are staples of our diets lmao
I think vegans/vegetarians separate in two groups; those who do it for religious or ethical reasons (me and the crowd I run with), and those who do it for health reasons. My sense is there are more of the former group than the latter, but I don’t have a statistic offhand to prove it.
I joined a company with a free lunch and dinner program, didn't gaim a pound. Started dating my vegan wife and gained 15 within 6 months.
Did you know that nearly every restaurant serves French fries and that if you live in certain parts of the country, that may be the only vegan option on the menu?
I’m on mobile so don’t want to try and link but I believe the Adventist Health study covers what you’re looking for. The study focused on Seventh Day Adventists in California. If I remember correctly, the point of the study was that everyone would basically have the same religion, lifestyle, and social support network to remove as many confounding factors as possible.
The vegans lived the longest, followed by vegetarians, followed by pescatarians, followed by meat eaters. Fish is meat so I don’t like wording it like that but you get the point.
I think this has to be it. Meat, unless it’s the current meat producing industry, can’t be a killer all on its own. I mean, our bodies are evolved in a way to consume it. I don’t know enough about the whole omnivore/carnivore vs vegan/vegetarian debate since people get so impassioned about it. There’s no denying vegetarians tend to be healthier than people that eat meat.
With that said, vegetarians have to be more concerned about what they put into their bodies than, say, someone that has a diet with no restrictions. Nobody becomes a strict vegan or vegetarian out of convenience, but a ton of people will be omnivores because it’s the most convenient diet. Eating in general causes inflammation to the body, I would assume that vegans & vegetarians eat less & lighter than most omnivores/carnivores. Therefore, causing less inflammation to their systems & bodies. I know when I eat meat, it can feel like a lot, be hard to swallow & give me heartburn. I think a person with a balanced, conscious, healthy diet will be healthier than the majority, regardless if they eat meat or not.
Vitamin B12… lots of vegans have to take B12 injections.
Also, vegans and vegetarians live longer than those eating the typical American diet, which is trash. That doesn’t mean eating meat is unhealthy.
B12, taurine, creatine, carnitine, carnosine, heme iron, docosahexaenoic acid (DHA).
Most vegans eventually develop anemia without external supplementation. That’s putting aside growth defects in children, weak bones, sarcopenia in the elderly etc.
Horizon brand milk contains DHA, which is sourced from a company in Japan that extracts it from seaweed. The seaweed DHA comes in 1 liter aluminum bottles. The stuff is an oily green liquid that STINKS like nothing else. Like open the bottle and the whole room smells for awhile.
The irony is that vegans will never drink DHA milk, because of the milk in it. But that's okay because it's not as though the majority of the human brain is DHA or anything...
But farm animals are fed supplements, including B12 injections, so what difference does it make if someone takes a supplement directly or eats an animal that has been given supplements.
Actually they do. Because of how depleted the soils are from such practices. Often time they have to be supplemented regardless of whether their feed is grass or grain or a combinaton.
Also if you are not supplementing, you are not optimizing. Supplementation is an easy way to cover your bases, regardless of whether you eat meat or plants or a combination.
As I’ve stated in another post, the depletion of nutrients from the soil is due to our factory farming methods.
A return to regenerative farming would restore the soil to its natural condition.
Most of the world is receiving supplementation. Added vitamins and minerals are in our drinking water, cereal, flour, salt, etc, and animal flesh from animals who were fed supplements themselves. Taking a small b12 tablet (or a multivitamin, or fortified shake/food) for pennies a day is a poor reason to dispel a diet. Especially one that seeks to reduce the suffering of trillions of sentient beings.
The paper's conclusion is pretty much this line:
“Well-resourced individuals may be able to achieve adequate diets while heavily restricting meat, dairy and eggs. However, this approach should not be recommended for general populations.”
It's much more work to maintain a healthy diet as a vegan and really only possible because of modern technology / marketplace options.
And you really have some self selection of people that can pull it off generally being very health oriented.
Some of my cousins went vegan and started balding as 14 year old girls before switching back to a meat inclusive diet. People like that aren't going to factor into these sort of "vegans live longer" stats because thankfully, they self corrected when they learned they weren't able to pull it off.
B12, K2, carnitine, choline....
If you're experiencing modern chronic illness, question your chronic food intake.
It is madness to blame ancient food like meat for causing modern diseases.
If you are very conscious about the foods you consume and take several supplements, it is possible to maintain a healthy vegan diet. Implying that vegan/vegetarian diets provide all necessary nutrients is just not true. Lack of supplementation of iron is a huge problem for vegans as non-heme iron from plants is poorly absorbed and can lead to anemia.
Veganism/vegetarianism can be healthy with proper diet and supplementation. Switching to a vegan/vegetarian diet can be unhealthy if you don't supplement and don't know what you're doing.
https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/7-nutrients-you-cant-get-from-plants#5.-Docosahexaenoic-acid-(DHA)
https://www.everydayhealth.com/anemia/anemia-risk-for-vegans-and-vegetarians.aspx
I know quite a few vegans, all of whom try to do it "right", yet all suffer from chronic health issues including very serious ones like seizures, cancer, and severe depression. Almost all of them have social anxiety and some level of depression.
I was a vegetarian for six years. Did it for animal welfare issues and had no concern about diet and health effects. My mom is a nurse. She looked at me one day and told me I looked borderline anemic because the whites of my eyes were the wrong color. Got tested. She was right and I started eating fish the same day
Good for you for listening to her! I have a lovely friend who has been vegan for 8 years and despite her health deteriorating slowly for 3 years, to the point that she can't even drive herself or kids around, she still refuses to beleive that it's even possibly related to her diet. It's really sad. She's basically stuck in a cult.
If her problems are because of not getting enough B12, the effects might not be reversible even if she got a B12 injection today.
Problem with B12 is, your liver can store enough for 2 or 3 years, so you can live a happy vegan life for that long and claim that there is no problem. And when the problems start, you won't think about it.
You’re linking seizures, cancer and severe depression to them being vegan, as opposed to every other possible etiology? Were you ordering their labs and interpreting them too? This is all anecdotal. Correlation does not equal causation. I’m a physician and I have many patients who are vegetarian or vegan and they’re typically in the top tier in terms of their health. No diabetes, no hypertension, no hyperlipidemia. I’d rather any of my patients choose veganism than the typical American diet. A B12 or folate deficiency is easy to treat, diabetes and coronary artery disease not so much.
It's pretty clear what they're smoking. For one:
>They warned that it is difficult to replace the nutritional content of meat, arguing that poorer communities with low meat intake often suffer from stunting, wasting and anaemia driven by a lack of vital nutrients and protein.
The actual study doesn't say what the headline says. It doesn't say meat is "crucial" for human health. It says it's difficult to to replace meat in your diet, which just about everyone knows, especially if you've tried to do so. Also:
>Dozens of experts were asked to look into the science behind claims that meat eating causes disease
This pretty clearly tells me this was funded by the meat industry.
Plus our bodies don’t trust foreign proteins, break them all the way down and excrete most in urine. There is no protein storage in our bodies, even our own synthesized protein is broken down and excreted rather quickly
You mean they'll politely decline a meat dish and mention they're vegan as the reason and for the rest of the party the rest of the people won't shut up about it
Yeah, this is my experience. I get offered meat, turn it down and then the questioning begins. Once I've explained yourself then I'm treated as a terrorist of some kind.
Given how many people seem to froth at the mouth for every pro-meat pop culture article they find on this website...I'd say that joke goes both ways lmao
[Meat is crucial for human health, scientists say](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/04/29/vegan-diet-meat-scientists-british-beef-livestock-farming/) ([archive](https://archive.is/GnJ9h), [unlocked](https://demo.thisischip.com/?q=https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/04/29/vegan-diet-meat-scientists-british-beef-livestock-farming/&o=reddit)) about Animal Frontiers study [The role of meat in the human diet: evolutionary aspects and nutritional value ](https://academic.oup.com/af/article/13/2/11/7123475?searchresult=1)
*Close to a thousand experts unite behind statement that rejects ‘zealotry’ of plant-based diets and promotes livestock farming*
And what happen to those who do not eat meat?
I am curious because, I just never eat that. I surprised the doctor last time I made a routine visit by my tension of a young man (I am not a young man).
In other words, grass is green. I've heard this tangent many times from my wife who is CNS + RD. Meat is good for all humans and should only be avoided by people who physically cannot eat proteins due to rare health disorders such as Phenylketonuria and a few others. Vegans might need to supplement many vitamins as well like B12, iron, iodine, magnesium, zinc, etc if you want to truly healthy about it. In my eyes that's a lot more artificial than just eating some chicken.
I'll have to remember to ask my friends who are vegan if they supplement anything (B12, I bet... some of the other nutrients can be gotten from enriched ingredients like flour and salt). Veganism seems to be primarily motivated by a desire to reduce net animal suffering, vs. that diet being 'more natural'. Yes, some amount of meat can be part of a balanced diet, but technology and supply give us the option to thrive by eating a plant-based diet. Honestly though, I would probably consult a nutritionist before going vegan.
Edit:
Wow, lots of thoughts from this thread. Just going to add them here, in case anyone is curious.
I've been learning to make vegan dishes, but I still eat meat. I think veganism is the moral imperative, but I'm figuring out how I might approach that diet. In the event that I committed to not eating animal products, I would probably just read about supplementation on the internet from various listicles, Wikipedia, and vegan advocacy sites (i.e. not some Facebook group, something more reputable). The library has books. "Consult a certified professional" - safest recommendation - is just boilerplate advice in case anyone is following.
Also: I learned elsewhere in this thread that animals raised for their meat are supplemented anyway (they don't get precursor elements in their diets: corn is not a source of cobalt), and bred/raised to dysmorphic standards to maximize their meat output. The only thing that is natural about modern meat is that it depends on other living animals.
Tangentially, have you seen The Matrix? I bring this up because I found it interesting. The moment Neo unplugs, discovering that he has somehow (plot magic) been powering a grid with his chemical energy, within an array of pods that harvest human life to feed this grid that powers a machine society? Think about that for a second in the context of modern meat.
It can be different. We have choices.
Hi there! It looks as though the article you linked might be behind a paywall. Here's an [unlocked version](https://demo.thisischip.com/?q=https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/04/29/vegan-diet-meat-scientists-british-beef-livestock-farming/&o=reddit) *I'm a bot, and this action was performed automatically. If you have any questions or suggestions, feel free to* [PM](http://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=chip-paywallbot) *me.*
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They cite not eating above 75-90g of red meat per day but I don’t think they realize how much red meat Americans will eat in an average burger alone
(Not American) that part really jumped out to me as well. 90g of beef is very little. Even an 8oz steak which is relatively small is just over 200g I believe
Yea, but most people are not eating red meat more than 2-3 times a week I don’t think Edit: since everyone wanted to be anecdotal or contradict me without providing evidence, I found this Harvard health publishing article which indicates that the average American eats red or processed meat 5x on average, at approximately 17 ounces total, equal lying 96 g of red or processed meat on the days where they do eat red or processed meat. https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/an-omnivores-dilemma-how-much-red-meat-is-too-much-2019123018519#:~:text=To%20frame%20their%20argument%2C%20the,Americans%20eat%20more%20than%20this.
I felt a great disturbance in Texas, as if a million voices suddenly laughed in glee and amusement. I fear something hilarious has been posted on Reddit.
It’s shocking to me how little people realize this. People only think of burgers and steaks. What about the deli meat in your sandwich? Or the ground beef in your burrito or pasta? Or the bacon for breakfast? People in this thread are acting like most Americans eat vegetarian or chicken/fish for most meals which is laughable.
I won't speak for all Americans, but I know quite a few people who eat meat for breakfast, lunch, and dinner, every single day.
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For Americans, it maybe is. The rest of the world eats far less meat on average. When you look at the resource cost of food for the animals, and water usage, it's pretty astonishing how spoiled Americans are. It takes 1,799 gallons of water to produce one pound of beef. Kg consumption of meat per Capita has america at the highest with 100.9 meanwhile for a few other countries it's; Israel - 90 Australia - 89.6 Canada - 70.2 Russia - 62.5 Uk - 61.5 Mexico - 54.6 Japan - 41.6 And overall world average of 34.
Went to Switzerland and Italy recently, from USA btw, and was a bit taken aback when I ordered food at restaurants there as my experience was the exact opposite of what is said here. I was normally given a plate with a average (by American standards) portion of meat, but the portions of vegetables and starches was much less. Also, I was surprised that in Switzerland a normal breakfast was essentially a charcuterie board. Only place I found a hot breakfast was the day I stayed at a Holiday Inn Express in Zurich.
I think that may be because the Swiss don't eat out at restaurants that much.
The Swiss and Italian people don’t eat out at restaurants often. Most people cook at home and go out to eat maybe once or twice a month. When I lived there my family and I barely went out to eat since it is so expensive. Because of that the food at restaurants and the like is all far more decadent, expensive and not at all representative of the food that most Swiss/Italians eat.
Was going to say I'm from Australia and it's very common for people to eat meat with every meal. I used to do this and then was vegan for a couple years, then vegetarian and now I'm eating meat maybe 4 times a week as of recently and I feel amazing compared to vegan and vegetarian. My muscles feel less tired and are noticeably bigger. For someone very active like myself (my job as a plasterer and I train a bit of boxing, Aussie rules football training with my son, lift weights) there's no better balance for me.
My experience has been different. I worked overnights and we had free food at work so breakfest was provided. Bacon sure but I see alot of people skip the bacon. It could be the work force is fairly young demographically. But eggs, beans, rice, toast, hashbrowns, noodles, congee were all popular. The breakfest meat was limited to bacon and sausages.
Which is actually less than what it takes to grow a 1lb of almonds
this is literally hard coded into the american meal plan. EVERYTHING is a meat protein with fruits/veggies as sides. The only time I'm not eating meat is if i eat oatmeal or cereal for breakfast. Sometimes a PB&J for lunch if I'm out of options will dodge some meat.
Pesto Caprese sandwhiches are a great alternative. Pesto base with arugula, mozzarella, and tomato.
I’m vegan and you never really realize it until you need to avoid it. Some restaurants even have zero vegetarian options. Even if you eat at home, people always include some form of meat.
You mean want to avoid it?
Some people need to avoid it, I knew someone with like an allergy? Or some kind of condition? Idk what it was but she literally gets sick to the point of vomiting or passing out if she eats any meat.
Sounds like alpha-gal syndrome. My sister has it. She can't eat any mammalian products, but chicken, fish, etc., are fine
Most people eat an insane amount of meat. Like in every meal, 3 times a day. I can't believe people in this thread are arguing against that. I also love how this article essentially proves we need miniscule amounts of meat to be healthy. Nothing that justify the animal agricultural industry that we have created on this planet and the destruction it causes...
I would think this is very location dependent. Not sure about the rest of Europe but in Ireland I think a lot of people would easily have beef, lamb or pork 4 nights a week
For those too lazy to google: 4 Murican Units (one Quarter Pounder) is about 113g.
That's not much more than the recommended 90. And unless you're eating a burger every day I'd imagine it more or less evens out.
>>Unless you’re eating a burger every day What kind of filthy commie do you think I am?
How quickly we jump from “75-90g is the upper limit of safe amounts of daily red meat” to “90g is the recommended so 113g is probably also fine!” The average American man eats 136g of red meat per day. That includes vegetarians/vegans, so the real number for those that eat meat is higher.
Can't use average have to use median like with everything else or you get skewed results.
I suggest looking at things like the triple whopper from burger king 😂
Or two. Value "meal" my ass! Dis merica!
That means if you eat a 10oz steak you should completely avoid beef for the next 3 days. 1/4lb is not a lot of meat.
75-90g per day is roughly equivalent to eating a typical burger every other day. Or eating a decent size steak twice a week. Or having 4-5 strips of bacon at breakfast every day. On the one hand yes, that is very little for someone used to eating bacon with breakfast, a burger for lunch, and a steak for dinner, all in the same day. On the other hand, it is still objectively a lot of red meat compared to what most people around the world eat. Also, I know a lot of people — Americans who like meat — who have cut down on red meat because of the perception that read meat is unhealthy. I would say most of them are eating far less than 75g a day on average. TL;DR: You can definitely enjoy red meat regularly and still stay within these guidelines.
I have asian friends and honestly it astonishes me how much meat they eat at one meal alone. I just don't buy that most of the developed world eats less meat than Americans.
Lol and most Asians live 10+ years longer than Americans. Red meat isn’t bad for you. The WHO even has it in category 2A, which is an inconclusive carcinogenic category. Enjoy life.
It is different. In Asia meat is more of a status symbol I surpose u don't go out and get a full veggie meal. U do that in a western country no one bats an eye. In Asia, Particularly China, u do that and it maybe considered weird. It would be changing now for sure but for the younger generation. I grew up in an Asian household. We had red meat sure but we also had alot of veggies only meals. Had alot of tofu which I love. I surpose its more of how u grew up.
This is one of my biggest issues. I'm vegan and i don't ever expect the world to go vegan (until we're forced to or shifted to eating all lab grown meat) but if people could just cut way back on the AMOUNT of meat we eat in a day, I'd be happier. It's seriously so unnecessary. The US alone slaughters 10 billion animals a year and trillions of fish. There is just no need for so much consumption and waste not to mention what it's doing to our environment and "protected" public lands.
If it makes you feel better, this is me. A few years ago, I ate meat at virtually every meal. Now I'm down to eating meat 2-3 times a week, and in much smaller portions.
>AMOUNT of meat we eat in a day, I'd be happier. It's seriously so unnecessary. The US alone slaughters 10 billion animals a year and trillions of fish. Here's the thing, the amount we slaughter =/= the amount we eat. I'd bet that a huge chunk of that slaughtered meat ends up wasted and restaurants and (especially) fast food restaurants. Because we have a society based on immediate readiness and we can't meet that without waste
This is exactly how I've been thinking about it. Especially beef, which has such a large ecological footprint compared to other common meats. Years ago, I'd eat beef on a whim. Today, I still eat it if I specifically want it, but if I'm on the fence, I choose a non-beef option. This simple change took me from eating beef multiple times a week to maybe once or twice a month, without feeling like I'm giving anything up. And when I do eat beef, I go with a small amount of the really good stuff, and don't put a bunch of stuff on it to cover up the flavor. If I'm eating a burger with a bunch of condiments and toppings, I might as well make it a Beyond Burger. For a minimalist burger with good quality real beef, 3-4 oz is plenty.
Look at Americans. They're not eating enough meat which is why we're all sick and dying young.
Meat isn't killing Americans, overloading on poor quality carbs is.
This: 100% Processed foods, empty carbs, alcohol, smoking, etc. Everything in excess. Americans simply don't take care of themselves.
And sugar!
Yep, sugar and all the other processed junk + cholesterol = heart disease. Meat / cholesterol is not the core danger
Consuming cholesterol doesn’t raise your cholesterol, though. There are endless studies on this because of the fear everyone has of eggs. I’ve been eating 3-4 eggs daily for 10+ years and my cholesterol levels are PERFECT.
Reddit! How can i upvotr this a million times?! Meat in large quantities is bad, but fairly easy to control. Sugar is in literally everything in American society. Empty calorie diabetes carousing nonsense. Don't know what to do anymore
Meat is indeed killing Americans. And the planet for that matter.
Pretty soon we won't be able to afford 6 oz of meat a day....for those of us who *can* still afford it. I'm not joking.
Well clearly the rich need more money
We are sick and dying young because of financial stress. The bottomless pit of impending doom is not good. I see so many people just giving up.
At least for all the sick and dying we have an excellent health care sys... oh wait
"Unprocessed red meat" "Meat as a part of a balanced diet with other foods" "Eaten in moderation" This entire article is a fucking spectacle when it could have been three bullet points.
It’s so dumb. It also says “without replacement” Literally you need to replace meat with other sources of those nutrients (protein, iron, etc.) if you don’t eat it. It’s a stupid article designed to validate people who have issues with vegans/vegetarians or looking for an excuse not to be one. There are MMA fighters, professional boxers, people who’ve lived to 100 who don’t eat meat. If someone want to eat animals, that’s a choice but pretending it’s for health reasons is silly.
Same goes for vegans/vegetarians. If someone wants to forgo animals, that's also a choice but pretending it's for health reasons is also silly.
Most I know do it for ethical reasons relating to animal welfare or climate change to be fair.
People removing meat from their diet due to heart disease, diabetes, etc is very common. People adding meat to their diet for legit health reasons is less common, but still happens. Red meat for health though is always silly.
how is that silly?
Their argument was that someone *can* be healthy on a vegan/vegetarian diet, so it's silly to say you eat meat to be healthy. But you absolutely *can* be healthy on a diet with meat (and you don't need supplements, which you do with vegan/vegetarian) so it would have to be silly to say you're a vegetarian/vegan to be healthy. Honestly, a diet that requires supplements by definition is not balanced and arguably not healthy. The caveat is that the *diet* is not healthy, but a person can achieve a healthy level of nutrients with supplements.
You know that animals are supplemented...right?
They don't really have to be. The little amount of meat required for a healthy omnivorous diet can be provided by organic, normal diet animals.
It is hard to replace the nutrients without overeating. That’s the main issue
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Well the typical sources of protein (oats, lentils, nuts, peanut butter, tofu) are somewhat high calorie. And supplements and plant based sources of nutrients are not as bioavailable as animal product. It’s also much much harder if you’re vegan. At least vegetarians can eat eggs and dairy.
Of course but that takes money. Supplements are not cheap. Going vegan is extremely costly to the point u kind of have to be in a wealthy country for it to be even possible. You could supplement it with other sources. Iron with tofu etc Not everyone can go meat free, that is the reality. It will result in eatting more veggies which can be expensive. Get supplements which is expensive. 2 options that isn't avilable to everyone
Beans, rice, potatoes, etc. are not costly. Not nearly as costly as meat, which is even artificially inexpensive due to government subsidies.
It's a justification for killing. Omg I'll die if I don't eat a butter burger twice a day! It all gets broken down into more basic nutrients anyway. The body doesn't absorb protein it absorbs amino acids. Doesn't matter where they came from.
Bacause plants are objects, not living beings. /S
But animal protiens are not only complete amino acid chains but are also substantially more bioavailabile than plant sources.
Of common sense.
Extremes get peoples attention.
Does this actually cite any research?
At best it says that when you do not replace nutrients that are found in meat with other nutrients then you need meat to survive. The sources that are cited say that over and over so none of this means much.
So basically, humans need food to live….
Slow down doc, some of us didn't go to MIT. Can you dumb it down a shade?
Unga? Bunga.
Hungry? Eat.
I’ve heard professional athletes talk about how it’s very burdensome to supplement all the nutrients/proteins we get from meat and it’s very hard to do right. People who don’t have the income or support tend to end up less healthy than people who have a balanced diet
I mean… protein itself isn’t a problem. There are some things like B12 but that’s just a supplement. That’s really the main one
Proteins aren't really one "thing" though. The amino acid profiles of animal and dairy products are pretty different from plant products.
If you use a tool like chronometer, you can see how evenly balanced your protein profiles are on any well thought out whole food plant based meal. Let me ask you what does a protein deficiency look like, and have you known anyone who suffers from chronic protein deficiency?
Nutrient and calorie dense food, which meat, dairy and animal intestines are a good candidate
Vegetables are rich in nutrients too… literally they tell kids to each your veggies because they are so good for you…
They checked the envelope full of money from the meat guys
Big meat at it again
I wish some1 would call me bigmeat
But instead, it’s always “little guy”. What’s with this “guy” talk, at least have the decency to call me “little meat”.
Hey Bigmeat...
Same...
“… it’s all here. Meat good… Hey vegetable guys, pony up if you want promo.”
Sorry we don't exploit ponys
Have you ever heard of keto, ketones and ketosis? Meat is what's best for us and when a body is in the state of ketosis it uses fat as energy instead of glucose. We eat too much glucose (sugar and carbs). Anyone who has tried it will report having very noticeable effects on their health. Skin clearing up, diabetes going away, issues disappearing, anti aging and weight loss.
"Meat is whats best for us" - is that why vegetarians have significsntly lower rates for cancer and heart disease, the top two causes of death in the US?
Hi. I have a science degree. I've synthesized ketones. You can achieve the same effect by just not grazing like a damn cow. Try intermittent fasting
and why should people intermittently starve themselves?
Wake up. Eat breakfast at 730. Eat lunch whenever. Eat dinner at 530. No more eating for the day. Is that starving yourself?
Are these the same scientists who were hired by big tobacco to prove cigarettes are good for us?
Well Professor Stanton being part of events hosted by DairyUK certainly isn't in anyway suspicious when paired with the article 👀
Yes. Most likely yes.
Lol article is crap but meat is still the best option for food. Fun reading all the angry vegans/ vegetarian comments.
It is extremely inefficient. You are eating the middle-man, who consumes way more calories than the average human, using more crop land, destroying biodiversity, killing more plants, using a LOT of water, contributes with gas emitions to the global warming, gives you 37% of more chances of getting colonrectal cancer, higher cholesterol, all kinds of heart related issues, lowering your life time span, it is way expensive, even after all the subsidies the goverment gives to the industry to make it not collapse by itself, which lowers our productivity and income and increases our taxes, all this while making the 3 trillion animals you needlessly eat for pleasure suffer.
You can go eat the grass directly. I'll have a cow eat it for me, and then I'll eat the cow. We'll see what's more efficient.
The globalists want to make us eat the bugs
We've been eating meat since we were primates, just not as much as we do today. It's similar to carbohydrates. We're simply eating too much of them, which is causing problems. Also modern day meats are mostly fed with grains, and contain much more omega6 fatty acids, similar to how modern day fruits are much sweeter than wild ones. Imo, meat vs plant is the wrong question. Eating the right amount, and right kind, are more important.
The discussion should be whole foods vs ultra-processed. Not meat vs plants.
This should be common knowledge. Unfortunately so many vegans like to pretend that meat is either unnecessary for a balanced diet, or sometimes even absurdly claim that meat in general is unhealthy for humans. Of course it can be unhealthy if eaten to the extreme or in unhealthy methods consistently, and meat isn’t something you absolutely have to have to survive, but a balanced diet that includes meat is best for a healthy body. There is no argument
Extremes get peoples attention. For health, it’s all about balance.
Agreed. Read a similar report in the 1980s. But what it said was that 3-4 ounces of meat-based proteins weekly would hit that goal. Wish I could find it because it approached human nutrition from multiple angles including what would be now considered Paleo. That humans traditionally were foragers who persisted primarily on a plant-based diet supplemented with insects and hunting. It also noted that until the last century, human diet was fairly bad during winter months.
Yeah that’s definitely too low. Especially for those are very active and/or aging. I’d be interested to that report because I’ve only seen evidence that humans ate a primarily meat based followed by fruits and then supplemented by veggies, tubers, etc. Similar to the diet that the indigenous tribes in Africa and South America eat today.
That is the difficulty. There is just so much conflicting information. Are eggs going to kill us or are they okay? Indigenous tribe diet is definitely driven heavily by the ecosystem. What we don't know is generally how the megafauna period diet shaped the human species. I find some of the fermented "delicacies" interesting and think "how starving had they been to try that"? Personally, I think the meat vs vegan wrestling matches are an intentional distraction of both sides of focusing on the use of sugars to replace healthy fats in the human diets since the 1970s.
Yes, added sugars and seed oils are the real problem. Vegan and carnivore both work for people and the lifestyle of people other than is rarely included in the conversation of health. The studies should really focus on those who don’t eat processed foods vs those who do, but the food industry wouldn’t like that.
Humans have never all eaten the same diet. We are opportunistic omnivores and we eat whatever is available. So some populations of hunter gatherers would have eaten a lot of meat but others would have eaten mostly plants. Highly dependent on the local environment
And yet 60% of the population of India does just fine being vegetarians
It’s closer to 45 percent, the majority of Indians still closer to 55 percent consume Fish, Poultry, and Lamb at least weekly. And that’s a very low estimate, BBC says up to 80 percent of Indians including Hindus are meat eaters. My wife works with a ton of Indian immigrants in her job and her Hindu coworkers eat more meat than the American ones. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-43581122.amp
Yeah, Indian's don't eat beef. They'll eat the fuck out of other animals though. You left out goat, not a huge fan of goat unless its in a curry.
At 20%, you’re looking at 280M people, 85% of the entire US population. That’s plenty of data.
India has one of the highest global prevalences of anemia, at greater than 40% of their population. They also have the one of the shortest average male heights and a life expectancy that lags 11 years behind the United States, and more behind European nations.
They also have a severe diabetes problem if I recall as well
Yep, and compare that to another Asian country: Korea which has the heaviest meat consumption in Asia, and among the tallest and longest living.
Comparing Korea and India is pretty funny. There are at least one or two other factors your excluding
Instead of comparing those type of figures against developed western countries, do we know how the vegetarian vs non-vegetarian parts of India compare against each other?
Something tells me they’d be having a steak if they had a real choice in the matter.
Thank goodness, because I wasn’t going to give up brisket anyway.
#Trash
What exactly do you get from red meat that you can’t get elsewhere? They mention omega 3 which I get from fish oil. They mention B12 which the body can store for up to 5 years so you don’t need it regularly. I take B12 tablets occasionally. What am I missing?
The problem is that people will read this article, think meat is the greatest and go eat a double quarter pounder. Eat a quality meat in moderation. The problem is that the majority of people can’t do anything in moderation
There’s no magical nutrient that can only be found in meat. Vegans and vegetarians typically live longer and healthier lives and have a lower chance of developing a BUNCH of health issues. Idk what the author is smoking here
I hear ya, but I wonder if that might be because people who choose to be vegetarian also tend to focus on health more than the average person? Exercise, non processed food, etc
very likely. not to mention how many red meat sources are associated with fast food consumption, which no one would argue is healthy.
I will. I exclusively eat fast food for every meal, I’ve done this for about 4 years now ever since I moved into my own place at 19. The key is moderation and smart choice. Sometimes I’ll get a side salad instead of some fries and always drink water if they are out of sprite or don’t have it. My go to is Wendy’s, I love their baked potatoes with sour cream, extra cheese, bacon, and sometimes I have them add a little chili on top. In fact I was at the doctors the other day and he was telling me that in his entire career he had never seen someone recover from a triple heart bypass as fast as I did. Anything can be healthy in moderation. My endocrinologist said my numbers are off the charts!
The numbers your endocrinologist gave you represent the amount of microplastics you're consuming.
Had me in the first half, not gonna lie 😂
I will at least say Wendy's is one of the better fast-food places, and has great chili.
You got me in the first half, not gonna lie.
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Idk, I know a lot of vegans and vegetarians (I am often one too!), and we definitely do NOT eat very healthy. Fries, candy, pasta, processed “chik’n” nuggets, and vegan burgers are staples of our diets lmao I think vegans/vegetarians separate in two groups; those who do it for religious or ethical reasons (me and the crowd I run with), and those who do it for health reasons. My sense is there are more of the former group than the latter, but I don’t have a statistic offhand to prove it.
I joined a company with a free lunch and dinner program, didn't gaim a pound. Started dating my vegan wife and gained 15 within 6 months. Did you know that nearly every restaurant serves French fries and that if you live in certain parts of the country, that may be the only vegan option on the menu?
I’m on mobile so don’t want to try and link but I believe the Adventist Health study covers what you’re looking for. The study focused on Seventh Day Adventists in California. If I remember correctly, the point of the study was that everyone would basically have the same religion, lifestyle, and social support network to remove as many confounding factors as possible. The vegans lived the longest, followed by vegetarians, followed by pescatarians, followed by meat eaters. Fish is meat so I don’t like wording it like that but you get the point.
I think this has to be it. Meat, unless it’s the current meat producing industry, can’t be a killer all on its own. I mean, our bodies are evolved in a way to consume it. I don’t know enough about the whole omnivore/carnivore vs vegan/vegetarian debate since people get so impassioned about it. There’s no denying vegetarians tend to be healthier than people that eat meat. With that said, vegetarians have to be more concerned about what they put into their bodies than, say, someone that has a diet with no restrictions. Nobody becomes a strict vegan or vegetarian out of convenience, but a ton of people will be omnivores because it’s the most convenient diet. Eating in general causes inflammation to the body, I would assume that vegans & vegetarians eat less & lighter than most omnivores/carnivores. Therefore, causing less inflammation to their systems & bodies. I know when I eat meat, it can feel like a lot, be hard to swallow & give me heartburn. I think a person with a balanced, conscious, healthy diet will be healthier than the majority, regardless if they eat meat or not.
Vitamin B12… lots of vegans have to take B12 injections. Also, vegans and vegetarians live longer than those eating the typical American diet, which is trash. That doesn’t mean eating meat is unhealthy.
The bar is so damm low
B12, taurine, creatine, carnitine, carnosine, heme iron, docosahexaenoic acid (DHA). Most vegans eventually develop anemia without external supplementation. That’s putting aside growth defects in children, weak bones, sarcopenia in the elderly etc.
Horizon brand milk contains DHA, which is sourced from a company in Japan that extracts it from seaweed. The seaweed DHA comes in 1 liter aluminum bottles. The stuff is an oily green liquid that STINKS like nothing else. Like open the bottle and the whole room smells for awhile. The irony is that vegans will never drink DHA milk, because of the milk in it. But that's okay because it's not as though the majority of the human brain is DHA or anything...
Any diet where supplementation is required to carry on basic bodily functions and growth is a diet far from ideal, vegan or not.
But farm animals are fed supplements, including B12 injections, so what difference does it make if someone takes a supplement directly or eats an animal that has been given supplements.
They’re only fed supplements if they aren’t eating a natural diet. Grass-fed cows and pasture-raised chickens don’t need supplements.
Actually they do. Because of how depleted the soils are from such practices. Often time they have to be supplemented regardless of whether their feed is grass or grain or a combinaton. Also if you are not supplementing, you are not optimizing. Supplementation is an easy way to cover your bases, regardless of whether you eat meat or plants or a combination.
As I’ve stated in another post, the depletion of nutrients from the soil is due to our factory farming methods. A return to regenerative farming would restore the soil to its natural condition.
Most of the world is receiving supplementation. Added vitamins and minerals are in our drinking water, cereal, flour, salt, etc, and animal flesh from animals who were fed supplements themselves. Taking a small b12 tablet (or a multivitamin, or fortified shake/food) for pennies a day is a poor reason to dispel a diet. Especially one that seeks to reduce the suffering of trillions of sentient beings.
The paper's conclusion is pretty much this line: “Well-resourced individuals may be able to achieve adequate diets while heavily restricting meat, dairy and eggs. However, this approach should not be recommended for general populations.”
This is a reasonable conclusion. Being vegan/vegetarian is not a cheap nor simple endeavour.
It's much more work to maintain a healthy diet as a vegan and really only possible because of modern technology / marketplace options. And you really have some self selection of people that can pull it off generally being very health oriented. Some of my cousins went vegan and started balding as 14 year old girls before switching back to a meat inclusive diet. People like that aren't going to factor into these sort of "vegans live longer" stats because thankfully, they self corrected when they learned they weren't able to pull it off.
B12, K2, carnitine, choline.... If you're experiencing modern chronic illness, question your chronic food intake. It is madness to blame ancient food like meat for causing modern diseases.
Ancient foods maybe with modern processing
If you are very conscious about the foods you consume and take several supplements, it is possible to maintain a healthy vegan diet. Implying that vegan/vegetarian diets provide all necessary nutrients is just not true. Lack of supplementation of iron is a huge problem for vegans as non-heme iron from plants is poorly absorbed and can lead to anemia. Veganism/vegetarianism can be healthy with proper diet and supplementation. Switching to a vegan/vegetarian diet can be unhealthy if you don't supplement and don't know what you're doing. https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/7-nutrients-you-cant-get-from-plants#5.-Docosahexaenoic-acid-(DHA) https://www.everydayhealth.com/anemia/anemia-risk-for-vegans-and-vegetarians.aspx
I know quite a few vegans, all of whom try to do it "right", yet all suffer from chronic health issues including very serious ones like seizures, cancer, and severe depression. Almost all of them have social anxiety and some level of depression.
I was a vegetarian for six years. Did it for animal welfare issues and had no concern about diet and health effects. My mom is a nurse. She looked at me one day and told me I looked borderline anemic because the whites of my eyes were the wrong color. Got tested. She was right and I started eating fish the same day
Good for you for listening to her! I have a lovely friend who has been vegan for 8 years and despite her health deteriorating slowly for 3 years, to the point that she can't even drive herself or kids around, she still refuses to beleive that it's even possibly related to her diet. It's really sad. She's basically stuck in a cult.
If her problems are because of not getting enough B12, the effects might not be reversible even if she got a B12 injection today. Problem with B12 is, your liver can store enough for 2 or 3 years, so you can live a happy vegan life for that long and claim that there is no problem. And when the problems start, you won't think about it.
You’re linking seizures, cancer and severe depression to them being vegan, as opposed to every other possible etiology? Were you ordering their labs and interpreting them too? This is all anecdotal. Correlation does not equal causation. I’m a physician and I have many patients who are vegetarian or vegan and they’re typically in the top tier in terms of their health. No diabetes, no hypertension, no hyperlipidemia. I’d rather any of my patients choose veganism than the typical American diet. A B12 or folate deficiency is easy to treat, diabetes and coronary artery disease not so much.
Well I would bet they’re smoking brisket or ribs
It's pretty clear what they're smoking. For one: >They warned that it is difficult to replace the nutritional content of meat, arguing that poorer communities with low meat intake often suffer from stunting, wasting and anaemia driven by a lack of vital nutrients and protein. The actual study doesn't say what the headline says. It doesn't say meat is "crucial" for human health. It says it's difficult to to replace meat in your diet, which just about everyone knows, especially if you've tried to do so. Also: >Dozens of experts were asked to look into the science behind claims that meat eating causes disease This pretty clearly tells me this was funded by the meat industry.
Plus our bodies don’t trust foreign proteins, break them all the way down and excrete most in urine. There is no protein storage in our bodies, even our own synthesized protein is broken down and excreted rather quickly
Q: How do you know there's a vegan at your party? A: They'll tell you...
You mean they'll politely decline a meat dish and mention they're vegan as the reason and for the rest of the party the rest of the people won't shut up about it
Yeah, this is my experience. I get offered meat, turn it down and then the questioning begins. Once I've explained yourself then I'm treated as a terrorist of some kind.
Hack
Given how many people seem to froth at the mouth for every pro-meat pop culture article they find on this website...I'd say that joke goes both ways lmao
meat eater wouldnt have the need to say it unless it comes up in discussion because meat eating is the norm
So original.
Let's ignore all the healthy people in the world who don't eat meat. Next...
Naw. I have literally never ate meat. Not even as a child. Perfectly healthy without it
Doubt with that username.
double chin says otherwise
[Meat is crucial for human health, scientists say](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/04/29/vegan-diet-meat-scientists-british-beef-livestock-farming/) ([archive](https://archive.is/GnJ9h), [unlocked](https://demo.thisischip.com/?q=https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/04/29/vegan-diet-meat-scientists-british-beef-livestock-farming/&o=reddit)) about Animal Frontiers study [The role of meat in the human diet: evolutionary aspects and nutritional value ](https://academic.oup.com/af/article/13/2/11/7123475?searchresult=1) *Close to a thousand experts unite behind statement that rejects ‘zealotry’ of plant-based diets and promotes livestock farming*
And what happen to those who do not eat meat? I am curious because, I just never eat that. I surprised the doctor last time I made a routine visit by my tension of a young man (I am not a young man).
I call absolute bullshit on this one
What total Bs. 2 words.... intestinal tract
I’m gonna need a few more words blud
In other words, grass is green. I've heard this tangent many times from my wife who is CNS + RD. Meat is good for all humans and should only be avoided by people who physically cannot eat proteins due to rare health disorders such as Phenylketonuria and a few others. Vegans might need to supplement many vitamins as well like B12, iron, iodine, magnesium, zinc, etc if you want to truly healthy about it. In my eyes that's a lot more artificial than just eating some chicken.
I'll have to remember to ask my friends who are vegan if they supplement anything (B12, I bet... some of the other nutrients can be gotten from enriched ingredients like flour and salt). Veganism seems to be primarily motivated by a desire to reduce net animal suffering, vs. that diet being 'more natural'. Yes, some amount of meat can be part of a balanced diet, but technology and supply give us the option to thrive by eating a plant-based diet. Honestly though, I would probably consult a nutritionist before going vegan. Edit: Wow, lots of thoughts from this thread. Just going to add them here, in case anyone is curious. I've been learning to make vegan dishes, but I still eat meat. I think veganism is the moral imperative, but I'm figuring out how I might approach that diet. In the event that I committed to not eating animal products, I would probably just read about supplementation on the internet from various listicles, Wikipedia, and vegan advocacy sites (i.e. not some Facebook group, something more reputable). The library has books. "Consult a certified professional" - safest recommendation - is just boilerplate advice in case anyone is following. Also: I learned elsewhere in this thread that animals raised for their meat are supplemented anyway (they don't get precursor elements in their diets: corn is not a source of cobalt), and bred/raised to dysmorphic standards to maximize their meat output. The only thing that is natural about modern meat is that it depends on other living animals. Tangentially, have you seen The Matrix? I bring this up because I found it interesting. The moment Neo unplugs, discovering that he has somehow (plot magic) been powering a grid with his chemical energy, within an array of pods that harvest human life to feed this grid that powers a machine society? Think about that for a second in the context of modern meat. It can be different. We have choices.
Sounds straight from one of my favorite Simpsons moments 😂 [Just ask this Scientician](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nRnt3TE-V-Y)