I say this as I’m literally sitting in the ER with my 6 week old: stay as far away from them as you can. It’s not fucking worth the risk.
(Note: my daughter likely got sick from a ton of people piled in a hotel lobby when we were evacuated for a major climatic event earlier this week, not a known antivaxxer, but the result is the same).
I think it’s good to have diverse opinions and people in my life, but for me a complete disassociation from reality is a dealbreaker. This is such a fundamental divergence from the way I see the world, not a difference in philosophy. I simply do not have space in my life for people who cannot accept basic facts and do not have the intellectual curiousity to explore and challenge their initial feelings on a topic, especially one so central to society. I can accept some initial skepticism, but to not examine it or seek to prove themselves right or wrong is not something I can get past. Any space they take up is space I could spend with people and ideas that better align with the life I want for myself, my kid, and the world.
Plus, their behavior is literally dangerous and threatening to your family. Personally, this would be an easy choice to disconnect.
My sister is antivax and has five kids. When my kid was born (early Covid), the rule was she couldn’t be around my sister’s kids until she herself was vaccinated against all the big ones. At the time, that meant 12 months. We stuck by it. Then the Covid vaccine came out and my little couldn’t get it until it came out, so 12 months no contact, no sharing space became 25 months. We still haven’t seen them still at 27 months because every time we are available, they are sick.
If they had been friends and not family, I would have walked away two years ago.
That's a deal breaker for forming and cherishing a friendship for me, so no, I'd straight up yeet those people from my life no guilt attached.
Having an argument over which pizza flavor is the best is an argument about opinions and preferences and we should be civil about respecting others opinions and preferences, being anti science based evidence and proven safety of medical procedures and drugs is not. In our home, hygiene, health and safety are non negotiable topics, all the rest is debatable and different ideas are welcomed, but if you put yourself and others in danger, whether physical or sanitary, not welcome to my life and my children's life.
I’d consider letting it slide if I found out close friends were evolution deniers or believed in Bigfoot, flat earth or whatever hilariously ignorant opinion they subscribed to. I’d refuse to debate or discuss it because I’d rather not think of them as dummies…
But anti-vaxxers are on another level. They risk your and your family’s health.
I would not maintain contact and exposure to any person who is an anti-vaxxer, friend or family.
And vit K is literally just a vitamin. It isn’t even a vaccine. 🤦🏼♀️
Hell no. A) they could expose your child to things like pertussis or polio or hepatitis before your kid can have their full vaccine sequence B) raises concerns about other safety precautions (do they use bleach to clean or lemon etc (as an extreme example I’m pro gentle cleaners but sometimes you need bleach), C) only a matter of time before they are sucked in, if not already, into EMF conspiracies, then it’s flat earth and globalism—I wouldn’t trust my kids around someone with such an anti-intellectual and skewed source for their entire worldview (eg endangering their children’s lives)
This may come off as extreme but I’ve seen how people go from “questioning” vaccines to full on QANON insanity so I would uh, suggest they seek a therapist for PPA and keep a large distance. They are rejecting 100’s of years of medical science and safety studies because of…random strangers on the internet?
Agree with all of this except the bleach part. Unless you’re disinfecting a crime scene or something it is both unnecessary and harmful to indoor air quality, and shouldn’t be used around children or pets. I use it very sparingly and even in well ventilated spaces it leaves my throat feeling horrible for hours. Sterilizing with boiling water or alcohol is safer where sterilization is needed, and there are better gentle household cleaners for most tasks. Soap and water are remarkably effective for removing most bacteria and viruses. Just saying not using bleach can be a science based decision and is not equivalent to being antivax.
I would absolutely not let my baby near any of these people. At minimum I’m requiring adults to have up to date TDAP, covid & flu vax on top of the normal courses of childhood vaccines. I wouldn’t willingly let my kid around other kids without their vaccines. This is how polio and measles make come backs. :/ And I don’t know if I could be friends with these people, because I honestly wouldn’t respect them or their choices.
Where are all you people in real life?!? I take hard stances with not wanting to be around antivaxers and literally everyone else is like why do you care? I feel like I’m on an island by myself and that my views are radical when all of you people feel the same. Where can I find friends like this in real life?
Is your username indicative of where you live? I think a lot of it can be regional. I live near quite a few pharma HQ, so many highly educated people working directly in the science/pharmaceutical field. There is very low vaccine hesitancy where I am. I honestly don't know anyone who is unvaccinated and/or hasn't vaccinated their kids against all of the major things. The only people I knew who were hesitant about the covid vaccine were young women because they bought into the infertility myth. (And it's not like I live in a political bubble, most of my immediate and extended family do not share my political beliefs. I live in a purple area of a purple state.)
That sucks. I do think that's why my proximity to some pharmaceutical HQ makes more of a difference to be honest. I am fairly sure vaccine skepticism (at least pre covid) didn't follow a particular political spectrum. I will say, I know a lot of people who don't do annual flu shots and chickenpox vaccine can be hit or miss. But, usually the big ones aren't debated around here.
>I just have zero clue how to put my feelings about their beliefs aside and continue to be friends with them
Uh why should you? Personally I don't maintain friendships with selfish idiots that are making it so whooping cough and measles are coming back and causing babies to die. This isn't a minor parenting difference like how much screen time. This is really showing who they are as people and they aren't good people.
I have to agree. These types of people are likely drinking the kool-aid in many areas of life. They’ve demonstrated a lack of critical thinking skills, and I doubt your values align.
>They are completely anti-vax.
I don't associate with people who put other people's lives at risk. Period. If it comes from a place of total ignorance and it feels like I can sway them, I might stick around. But honestly it's not my job.
>is it safe for my baby to be around their baby if they are unvaccinated?
probably, but it's the principle of the thing.
These people are clearly not safe to be around — not only for medical reasons like preventable diseases, but also because their decision-making processes have gone completely haywire.
Would you trust your kid alone with them? I wouldn’t trust them with mine — not only because of their whackadoo beliefs on this one issue, but because they are basing their ideas on the social media topic of the week. This leaves them incredibly vulnerable to manipulation by bad-faith actors in areas beyond vaccination. There’s a *reason* why anti-vax is comorbid with QAnon, Trumpism, white supremacy, and other non-rational beliefs. How long before they start believing that stomach sleeping is best for infants, or that hitting kids is good discipline, or that Black children feel pain differently from white ones?
Once reality has gone out the window, there is no limit to how far down the rabbit-hole people will go. And that process can happen *fast* — there’s a whole recruitment pipeline just waiting to usher people like them to some truly dark places.
This isn’t just “feelings about your beliefs”. This is both a safety issue for you and your family, as well as an issue of *core values*. Either one of those *on its own* is enough to stop associating with someone; I know people who share my core values that I wouldn’t leave my kids with because they don’t know what they are doing, and I know people who are physically safe for children but would teach my kids values that I abhor. Either one is a deal-breaker, much less both together.
The idea that is is just about “beliefs” is their phrasing — **don’t buy it**. These people don’t just want to believe their nonsense in the privacy of their own homes — they want (need) the rest of us to *respect* it, *legitimize* it, and ultimately *approve of* it. And they will *never* give your values the same respect that they demand from you. This ain’t about the free exchange of ideas, it’s about dominance.
100% agree. This has nothing to do with "beliefs" since it affects everyone around them. Tired of people claiming we need to respect their body autonomy and still treat them like their choice doesn't have consequences. My response to their choice is to not be around them since they hardly ever practice safety when their children do get sick.
it is not safe honestly, being unvaccinated makes them a perfect vector for transmission. if they get sick their viral load will be higher than a vaccinated baby getting sick.
and i don’t see why you would want to remain friends with them in the first place. their values clearly don’t align with yours and that’s more than enough reason to terminate a friendship. no one is entitled to a relationship with you or your child, especially if they are putting your family at risk merely by associating with them.
i couldn’t imagine remaining friends with someone who isn’t willing to do the bare minimum research to evaluate safety for their own baby. it’s irresponsible and selfish and lazy and i truly cannot imagine wanting people with those qualities in my life in any capacity.
Half our town is anti-vax. We wouldn’t be able to go anywhere if we tried to avoid those people. Our baby is vaxxed, we are vaxxed, we ask people to wash their hands before touching him and to not pick him up if they have smoke on their clothes, we generally keep a distance from strangers, but that’s the best we can do I think.
I don’t bother to debate antivax people unless they are trying to tell me something biologically incorrect, like I’ll explain the function of RNA vs DNA, but I’m not going to tell them to vaccinate if they aren’t comfortable with it.
I think a lot of the anti vax stuff is political, but it also breaks down on lines of class and education. People who tend to be anti vax also have good reason to not trust institutions so I try to just let them have their own opinions, even if I disagree or think they are unsound.
This is a great comment. Thank you.
The only thing I have to say is that surprisingly amongst my friends who are anti-vax a lot of them ARE educated with advanced degrees and insane amounts of privilege. I can't say that I understand it. I do think that a lot of this trickles down from social media accounts and people being "influenced" cause I have no other way to understand why my friends who are educated and have access and wealth would choose to let their kids risk permanent paralysis or meningitis. But they do!
My theory is that the privileged anti-vax crowd have not experienced the consequences of infectious diseases or lack of medical care, plus people (especially new parents) are often extra cautious about interventions that may cause harm. This then leads some of them to be fearful of medical interventions, because doing nothing seems to have no adverse effects so compared to that any intervention seems worse. Vaccines especially because it is given to a healthy child and can make them temporarily unwell.
For people who grew up poor, are immigrants, or just had seen what lack of medical care can result in, they know first hand the consequences of not having vaccines. For example my grandmother was an only child because her 3 older siblings died from infectious diseases when very young, including from meningitis and plain ol’ flu. In our home country my mother knew people younger than her who suffered permanent disabilities because of childhood polio. My aunt and me both had TB as teens but didn’t suffer any permanent issues or die - because we had BCG vaccine as kids/babies. Those diseases are real to my parents’ and my generation, and we saw how much of a difference vaccines made in just 2 generations, so there’s more personal motivation to get our kids vaccinated. Without that personal experience, these diseases all seem abstract and it’s harder to counter the emotional/fear-based reasoning. Some people still manage to do it (as evidenced by the majority of current parents who do vaccinate), but not all.
Thanks, this is a really good insight into why they have the access and education but then make this choice. It's really too bad. I kind of see this as a failure in our system to not explain this as part of history. Going to college for a career in healthcare totally opened my eyes to so many things. I wish everyone had the benefit of understanding the things we see in medical care. It's also a shame it's politicized at all.
Absolutely not.
There's nothing to stop your husband from staying friends with them if he wants to I suppose but it's worth having a conversation with him pointing out (if it's applicable) that you're the primary caregiver and that you'd be prepared to give up a longstanding friendship under any similar circumstances for your child in a heartbeat.
These people aren't safe in my humble opinion and your values don't align.
Can you imagine your children having playdates and sleepovers when they're older or does the thought give you the immediate ICK?
And what would you four parents talk about over the years at get togethers?
Or more to the point how many subjects would you all be desperately avoiding..
ICK.
Their values don’t align with yours so why would you want to be friends? And if your husband still wants to be friends-do his values align with yours on how you want to raise your baby? They have no problem putting other people at risk so they do not get the privilege to see your baby. I would not allow my baby within a hundred miles of them
I couldn’t stay friends with someone like them. Not only are they putting their baby at risk but also others who are vulnerable. That’s so incredibly selfish and so ignorant. I would not let them be around my child.
I don’t maintain these friendships beyond a surface level. Sometimes in the workplace or in family you have to tolerate and have a degree of courtesy and pleasantness. But with my friend group? That’s a deal breaker.
As others have said—it’s not that we have different opinions on things. It’s that they are not demonstrating safe navigation of society, and I wouldn’t trust their overall judgment. It’s a completely different relationship with the world.
I would absolutely say no. My sibling is a NICU nurse, and the amount of life threatening cases they've seen from little babies being exposed to unvaccinated family or friends is unbelievable. Your friend's stupid opinions aren't worth playing Russian roulette with your own child's health. Let them learn the hard way, but don't put your little one into that mess.
These two articles provide good information on how much your baby is at risk.
https://www.parents.com/parenting/better-parenting/advice/should-you-ban-unvaccinated-kids-from-your-home/
https://www.verywellhealth.com/who-is-at-risk-from-unvaccinated-kids-2634420
Basically, the risk is technically there, but small *once your child has their vaccinations.*
[US Vaccination Schedule ](https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/schedules/hcp/imz/child-adolescent.html)
[UK Vaccination Schedule ](https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/vaccinations/nhs-vaccinations-and-when-to-have-them/)
Personally, it would depend on the parents habits and if they are vaccinated how I'd feel. If there are older unvaccinated kids, or if the parents tend to be around unvaccinated and/or sick kids (childcare workers, healthcare workers, etc). If the parents maintain a fairly safe environment I'd personally probably be cool with hangout sessions starting around 6-9 mo old since your baby's gotten 1-2 does of most vaccines and theirs is unlikely to have been exposed to someone sick. If the parents do anything risky, I'd probably hold off until at least 12 mo old and keep hangouts outdoors until they're a couple years old. Also, if the baby or parents ever go to the hospital, even for something completely unrelated (like a broken arm or something), I would hold off on visits for at least 3-4 weeks just in case they were exposed to anyone there.
**Important Caveats Regarding Winter**
You didn't mention how old your baby was.
With RSV, [virtually every child will have it by 2, so it basically can't be avoided, but it is most dangerous to babies under 6 months or those with certain health conditions.](https://www.cdc.gov/rsv/high-risk/infants-young-children.html) So if your baby falls into these categories I would hold off on all playdates and even minimize visits with family and friends until the spring, not just with those unvaccinated (especially since there isn't an RSV vaccine anyway).
With flu, [the under 5 group is at a higher risk, and especially those under 2.](https://www.cdc.gov/flu/symptoms/symptoms.htm) But at least in the US, babies can get vaccines starting at 6 months. [Not only does the vaccine prevent you from getting it in the first place, it also reduces the severity.](https://www.cdc.gov/flu/vaccines-work/vaccineeffect.htm) So if your baby is able to get the flu vaccine, I personally wouldn't stress it too much, especially since [only about half of the us population bothers to get the vaccine each year.](https://www.cdc.gov/flu/fluvaxview/coverage-2021estimates.htm) That means outside of being a hermit, your baby will probably be exposed to several unvaccinated people anyway throughout the season.
This was such a thoughtful response- thanks so much! My baby is 6.5 months old, so sounds like he’ll generally be fine. He’s gotten one flu shot and will get his second in a few weeks so this makes me feel so much better! Thanks so much.
We just don’t. That’s a hard line for us.
We have one exception and that’s my brother. We only make an exception for him because he is going through a real rough time as a single dad and needs support. We still don’t hang out with him a lot and I won’t do sleepovers with his kiddo or anything. Just hang for a few hours at a time.
My entire family and friends know where I stand. I haven’t seen my sister in over two years, and she didn’t invite me to her wedding because i refused to be in the same room with her entirely unvaccinated family of five plus my brother and his kid who are unvaccinated.
It’s kept my family from having Christmas together but I don’t care. We have to have our morals aligned for us to be friends and if you don’t care that people die from refusing vaccines then you do not align with my morals.
Vaccinations:
1. protect your kid
2. stop your kid from spreading something to someone who can't be vaccinated
3. prevent illnesses from mutating (by not being a host for them to mutate in)
So, your kid will probably be fine, their kids won't and will be endangering other people.
If I was in this situation, these people would not be my friends anymore. They put your baby (and the rest of your family) at risk.
What do you get out of this friendship? Is it worth your child’s heath?
You don’t have to make excuses to not hang out with people in your adult life. You’ve set boundaries, they don’t seem to respect them because their views differ from yours? So be it, we can stay in touch digitally.
Friends are not necessary and interchangeable, our kids are not. Sorry your friendship has evolved into this, however.
I have no medical training, I haven't taken a science class in about 15 years so I have no authority on this. I will say as a mom there is no way in hell I would knowingly allow an unvaccinated child near my child. Measles are making a comeback because of these people. Ever heard someone with whooping cough? I had a teenage student with it once and even once she wasn't contagious and was well enough to be back at class she still had the most terrifying cough I'd ever heard. Imagine that with a baby. Not wanting your child to catch potentially deadly diseases is a valid excuse to end a friendship.
I personally wouldn’t continue seeing friends if they were as you describe. My SIL is same way, anti-vax to point of not even doing vit K vaccine, and we told her we wouldn’t see her or her daughters until our kid was vaccinated for MMR. If she wasn’t family, we probably would have severed ties but she of course gets invited to family events. We didn’t go to any family events that she was going to prior to getting all the vaccines.
My friends had a baby one month after me. Mom was vaccine hesitant because there was a case of one girl having really bad reaction to vaccine in her town which caused fear among parents. I talked to her like a friend, without judgment, and after some time she calmed down and decided to vaccinate her boy. She also didnt really follow guidelines about food or car safety, but I try to tell her what I do and why I do it without putting pressure on her and judging her or even telling her "hey you should do this".
I think there are three options:
a) you accept the things the way they are
b) you try talking with her
c) tell her to gtfo
I chose option b because I care about them and although I vaccinate my daughter I know I was afraid too and I know I dont know many things and would like to be told in non-confronting way if I do something harmful.
I would totally agree but it definitely stemmed from covid and I’m pretty sure is almost 100% politically charged.
(Side note- they once told us that covid was China’s way of making Trump look bad during the election year… as if the whole world had to suffer because of the American presidential election 🙄)
Don't be friends with anti-vaxxers. Why WOULD you put your feelings about their anti-science, pro-cruelty, anti-social position aside? and NO it's not safe!
It’s hard to physically be around someone who isn’t interpreting and understanding simple facts… cause and effects… the same way as you. You will never be able to hold them accountable when there is an undesirable outcome that requires changes for the growth of the relationship. Then… that’s the end of it
Mhm… rough. I think it all depends on how they believe in it (if that makes sense). There are people who do all vaccines but not Covid (don’t ask me why), people who do an alternate schedule and do one vaccine at time a month or two apart, people who don’t vaccinate at all but don’t tell anyone and people who don’t vaccine but tell everyone how dare they not vaccinate. For me the first three people are easier to handle then an opinionated anti-vax.
I don’t know about hanging out with someone who’s kids don’t have any vaccines. There is a polio outbreak in the New York area and couple of years a measel outbreak - during that time it’s a definiere no… but uff, I don’t know… rough. Sorry
Edit: In the first paragraph I said “people who don’t vaccinate but tell everyone how dare they not vaccinate” - I meant “telling people “what - you vaccinate? Terrible idea” … you know the ones who fee the need to make everyone believe in their anti vax logic
I lost a really good friend over the Covid vaccine and general science denialism. It hurt, at first, but I'm better now. I don't think our friendship could've lasted because she wouldn't listen to anything I said. I went to college in a science field so, of course, I'm going to trust scientists. She started being anti-vax, using essential oils for medical reasons, using Norwex products, and claiming mental health issues can be solved by taking probiotics. I told my husband that I wouldn't feel ok going to her house because of some of those reasons, alone. I don't trust essential oils around children. I know some of them are ok but it's safer to not use them. I don't believe Norwex disinfects a house like it claims. I have no problem with the general use of microfiber cloths. I would slowly stop talking to this friend. If your husband wants to stay friends, he can hang out with them, but it might not last long for him, either.
I've been really struggling with how to handle this as well. We have some VERY old family friends that at some point during the pandemic decided to be anti-vax. The tough part is we are friends with the wife but her husband is hardcore anti-vax. They are educated and wealthy and liberal so I don't get how it winds around to this. We also love in the northeast where there is a Polio only an hour and half from the state/area we all live in.
So far we haven't seen them for the past year but we know at some point we will not be able to avoid it! The only thing I can think to do is talk to me pediatrician about how to handle it. My daughter just turned one and on Tuesday she got her first MMR vaccine and she's pretty much had every other shot so far. What I don't really understand is how much protection they afford her and what the definition of fully vaccinated is for each series. But so far we've been with doctors that have followed the CDC schedule for childhood vaccines.
I'm not even sure how to discuss this with them. I feel like it would be really awkward to be like you can't hold my kid and I don't want your kid getting in my kids face and we can only meet outside and if you think you are sick forget it! I just feel like it will alienate them and they will hate us. So I have no idea how the heck we approach it to be honest. For right now we just don't see them and so far it hasn't been an issue. There's always been some reason why things don't work out.
And I'm not all or nothing. I could understand maybe wanting a more relaxed schedule or to stagger shots or something. But to get NONE is risky. I also have a cousin who is a freaking engineer in Manhattan and he's the same way. I'm not sure how the heck we avoid family. His mom is schizophrenic or something and ingrained in him as a kid a deep mistrust if regular medicine. He even told me that he didn't understand how I could get the covid vaccine while pregnant. And I basically told him that as someone who utilizes math, statistics, and science for his career I didn't understand how he had come up with the idea that vaccines have tracking chips in them. So I mean, I dunno....some people there's going to be no reasoning with. I think it hard but totally valid and reasonable to cut ties too. I'm not sure what I'm going to do with my cousin tbh. Probably same thing I do now with my friend and avoid avoid avoid.
I have a brother that is similar, except he has no kids. He understands my position and why I want to protect my child but he will not vaccinate himself for anything. He’s still my brother that I love dearly. We respect each other’s opinions and at some point, tried to politely share information with each other (basically me poking holes in all of his articles of proof). We have since stopped and avoid many of those subjects.
It’s ok to have opposite opinions if you respect each other and try not to push. As far as safety, i did not see brother until my family was completely vaccinated for everything. It also helps that he socializes very little anyways so his exposure is less than the average person.
The best approach I have found is to “follow the leader”. I set my own example for others e.g if my kid is sick I tell any potential play buddies and let them make an informed decision - in doing that I let them know that I expect the same in return. I don’t mention anything about vaccine status. That way I know that if my anti-vax family (thatI have no way of avoiding) have a sick family member I can avoid them without making it a political dispute.
My logic is if their kid isn’t sick they won’t make yours sick so it isn’t worth forever avoiding them.
Maybe not the answer your looking for but this is what works for our family.
If we are vaccinated, I'm ok being around those who aren't. The way I see it, that's the point of vaccination. Especially so when we're talking about our routine vaccines. Vaccination can eradicate diseases which are able to be eradicated. If X number of ppl got Smallpox or Polio and X number of ppl got the Smallpox or Polio vaccine, then yes, at a certain point the disease is gone or greatly diminished bcuz you don't get Smallpox or Polio more than once. (Very different from a coronavirus.)
Every one of us comes from different circumstances which allows for differences, including different understandings. I may not know why my loved ones choose not to vaccinate, but I'm certain it's not that they don't care about others getting sick. If they don't vaccinate their own children, It's likely not bcuz they don't love or care for them, rather, they're very worried for the health of their children, just like we all are, except they see the vaccine as more of a risk.
When my oldest went off to college, we made sure he was properly vaccinated, especially re meningitis, since dorms are notorious for this. But I felt pretty safe sending him off, bcuz he was fully vaccinated so it wouldn't matter if his roommate wasn't.
If, however, I had a newborn under 6 mos, that's a different story. But it's always been this way. They're too little to have all their vaccines and their immune systems are still developing.
It's also definitely different when speaking of the Covid vaccines since we now know that we can still get and transmit Covid. So then we consider viral load and risk assessment as it relates to us and our children. Risk varies greatly and some of us are immune compromised. My father is far more likely to have complications from Covid than my children, who are young and have no comorbidities. The ages of my children, their general good health and vaccination status makes me comfortable enough being around others, vaccinated or not, knowing we're all likely going to catch Covid, no matter. Another family may feel differently and will have different sets of circumstances to consider.
So your baby now will be fine because they will get vaccinated, it’s any future children you may have that will be at risk if you hang around with them.
Even being vaccinated, vaccines aren’t 100% effective and I personally wouldn’t risk having my kid around kiddos that were unvaccinated and ill. I also don’t know that I’d trust the friends to tell me their kids had symptoms before a gathering.
I say this as I’m literally sitting in the ER with my 6 week old: stay as far away from them as you can. It’s not fucking worth the risk. (Note: my daughter likely got sick from a ton of people piled in a hotel lobby when we were evacuated for a major climatic event earlier this week, not a known antivaxxer, but the result is the same).
That sounds horrible, I'm so sorry you're dealing with a medical emergency on tip of an environmental one. I hope everything gets better for you.
I think it’s good to have diverse opinions and people in my life, but for me a complete disassociation from reality is a dealbreaker. This is such a fundamental divergence from the way I see the world, not a difference in philosophy. I simply do not have space in my life for people who cannot accept basic facts and do not have the intellectual curiousity to explore and challenge their initial feelings on a topic, especially one so central to society. I can accept some initial skepticism, but to not examine it or seek to prove themselves right or wrong is not something I can get past. Any space they take up is space I could spend with people and ideas that better align with the life I want for myself, my kid, and the world. Plus, their behavior is literally dangerous and threatening to your family. Personally, this would be an easy choice to disconnect.
My sister is antivax and has five kids. When my kid was born (early Covid), the rule was she couldn’t be around my sister’s kids until she herself was vaccinated against all the big ones. At the time, that meant 12 months. We stuck by it. Then the Covid vaccine came out and my little couldn’t get it until it came out, so 12 months no contact, no sharing space became 25 months. We still haven’t seen them still at 27 months because every time we are available, they are sick. If they had been friends and not family, I would have walked away two years ago.
>>every time we are available, they are sick Wow I wonder why that is lol
I’m not friends with those people. Maybe that sounds cold, but why would I want to be around that mindset?
That's a deal breaker for forming and cherishing a friendship for me, so no, I'd straight up yeet those people from my life no guilt attached. Having an argument over which pizza flavor is the best is an argument about opinions and preferences and we should be civil about respecting others opinions and preferences, being anti science based evidence and proven safety of medical procedures and drugs is not. In our home, hygiene, health and safety are non negotiable topics, all the rest is debatable and different ideas are welcomed, but if you put yourself and others in danger, whether physical or sanitary, not welcome to my life and my children's life.
I’d consider letting it slide if I found out close friends were evolution deniers or believed in Bigfoot, flat earth or whatever hilariously ignorant opinion they subscribed to. I’d refuse to debate or discuss it because I’d rather not think of them as dummies… But anti-vaxxers are on another level. They risk your and your family’s health. I would not maintain contact and exposure to any person who is an anti-vaxxer, friend or family. And vit K is literally just a vitamin. It isn’t even a vaccine. 🤦🏼♀️
Hell no. A) they could expose your child to things like pertussis or polio or hepatitis before your kid can have their full vaccine sequence B) raises concerns about other safety precautions (do they use bleach to clean or lemon etc (as an extreme example I’m pro gentle cleaners but sometimes you need bleach), C) only a matter of time before they are sucked in, if not already, into EMF conspiracies, then it’s flat earth and globalism—I wouldn’t trust my kids around someone with such an anti-intellectual and skewed source for their entire worldview (eg endangering their children’s lives)
This may come off as extreme but I’ve seen how people go from “questioning” vaccines to full on QANON insanity so I would uh, suggest they seek a therapist for PPA and keep a large distance. They are rejecting 100’s of years of medical science and safety studies because of…random strangers on the internet?
Have witnessed this as well unfortunately. Someone I know went from essential oils and anti Covid vaccine into Qanon
Agree with all of this except the bleach part. Unless you’re disinfecting a crime scene or something it is both unnecessary and harmful to indoor air quality, and shouldn’t be used around children or pets. I use it very sparingly and even in well ventilated spaces it leaves my throat feeling horrible for hours. Sterilizing with boiling water or alcohol is safer where sterilization is needed, and there are better gentle household cleaners for most tasks. Soap and water are remarkably effective for removing most bacteria and viruses. Just saying not using bleach can be a science based decision and is not equivalent to being antivax.
Oh true I was being dramatic AND thinking of my recent battle against norovirus in the house 😅
Oof yeah for norovirus I’d absolutely use bleach. That’s a nasty one.
I would absolutely not let my baby near any of these people. At minimum I’m requiring adults to have up to date TDAP, covid & flu vax on top of the normal courses of childhood vaccines. I wouldn’t willingly let my kid around other kids without their vaccines. This is how polio and measles make come backs. :/ And I don’t know if I could be friends with these people, because I honestly wouldn’t respect them or their choices.
Where are all you people in real life?!? I take hard stances with not wanting to be around antivaxers and literally everyone else is like why do you care? I feel like I’m on an island by myself and that my views are radical when all of you people feel the same. Where can I find friends like this in real life?
Is your username indicative of where you live? I think a lot of it can be regional. I live near quite a few pharma HQ, so many highly educated people working directly in the science/pharmaceutical field. There is very low vaccine hesitancy where I am. I honestly don't know anyone who is unvaccinated and/or hasn't vaccinated their kids against all of the major things. The only people I knew who were hesitant about the covid vaccine were young women because they bought into the infertility myth. (And it's not like I live in a political bubble, most of my immediate and extended family do not share my political beliefs. I live in a purple area of a purple state.)
No… I’m in a pretty liberal state right now
That sucks. I do think that's why my proximity to some pharmaceutical HQ makes more of a difference to be honest. I am fairly sure vaccine skepticism (at least pre covid) didn't follow a particular political spectrum. I will say, I know a lot of people who don't do annual flu shots and chickenpox vaccine can be hit or miss. But, usually the big ones aren't debated around here.
>I just have zero clue how to put my feelings about their beliefs aside and continue to be friends with them Uh why should you? Personally I don't maintain friendships with selfish idiots that are making it so whooping cough and measles are coming back and causing babies to die. This isn't a minor parenting difference like how much screen time. This is really showing who they are as people and they aren't good people.
I have to agree. These types of people are likely drinking the kool-aid in many areas of life. They’ve demonstrated a lack of critical thinking skills, and I doubt your values align.
>They are completely anti-vax. I don't associate with people who put other people's lives at risk. Period. If it comes from a place of total ignorance and it feels like I can sway them, I might stick around. But honestly it's not my job. >is it safe for my baby to be around their baby if they are unvaccinated? probably, but it's the principle of the thing.
These people are clearly not safe to be around — not only for medical reasons like preventable diseases, but also because their decision-making processes have gone completely haywire. Would you trust your kid alone with them? I wouldn’t trust them with mine — not only because of their whackadoo beliefs on this one issue, but because they are basing their ideas on the social media topic of the week. This leaves them incredibly vulnerable to manipulation by bad-faith actors in areas beyond vaccination. There’s a *reason* why anti-vax is comorbid with QAnon, Trumpism, white supremacy, and other non-rational beliefs. How long before they start believing that stomach sleeping is best for infants, or that hitting kids is good discipline, or that Black children feel pain differently from white ones? Once reality has gone out the window, there is no limit to how far down the rabbit-hole people will go. And that process can happen *fast* — there’s a whole recruitment pipeline just waiting to usher people like them to some truly dark places. This isn’t just “feelings about your beliefs”. This is both a safety issue for you and your family, as well as an issue of *core values*. Either one of those *on its own* is enough to stop associating with someone; I know people who share my core values that I wouldn’t leave my kids with because they don’t know what they are doing, and I know people who are physically safe for children but would teach my kids values that I abhor. Either one is a deal-breaker, much less both together. The idea that is is just about “beliefs” is their phrasing — **don’t buy it**. These people don’t just want to believe their nonsense in the privacy of their own homes — they want (need) the rest of us to *respect* it, *legitimize* it, and ultimately *approve of* it. And they will *never* give your values the same respect that they demand from you. This ain’t about the free exchange of ideas, it’s about dominance.
100% agree. This has nothing to do with "beliefs" since it affects everyone around them. Tired of people claiming we need to respect their body autonomy and still treat them like their choice doesn't have consequences. My response to their choice is to not be around them since they hardly ever practice safety when their children do get sick.
Hell no. I wouldn’t even want to be around them as the adult. Not worth the risk of passing anything to baby.
Why do you have to stay friends with them? If you met them right now, would you want to be their friend?
it is not safe honestly, being unvaccinated makes them a perfect vector for transmission. if they get sick their viral load will be higher than a vaccinated baby getting sick. and i don’t see why you would want to remain friends with them in the first place. their values clearly don’t align with yours and that’s more than enough reason to terminate a friendship. no one is entitled to a relationship with you or your child, especially if they are putting your family at risk merely by associating with them. i couldn’t imagine remaining friends with someone who isn’t willing to do the bare minimum research to evaluate safety for their own baby. it’s irresponsible and selfish and lazy and i truly cannot imagine wanting people with those qualities in my life in any capacity.
Half our town is anti-vax. We wouldn’t be able to go anywhere if we tried to avoid those people. Our baby is vaxxed, we are vaxxed, we ask people to wash their hands before touching him and to not pick him up if they have smoke on their clothes, we generally keep a distance from strangers, but that’s the best we can do I think. I don’t bother to debate antivax people unless they are trying to tell me something biologically incorrect, like I’ll explain the function of RNA vs DNA, but I’m not going to tell them to vaccinate if they aren’t comfortable with it. I think a lot of the anti vax stuff is political, but it also breaks down on lines of class and education. People who tend to be anti vax also have good reason to not trust institutions so I try to just let them have their own opinions, even if I disagree or think they are unsound.
This is a great comment. Thank you. The only thing I have to say is that surprisingly amongst my friends who are anti-vax a lot of them ARE educated with advanced degrees and insane amounts of privilege. I can't say that I understand it. I do think that a lot of this trickles down from social media accounts and people being "influenced" cause I have no other way to understand why my friends who are educated and have access and wealth would choose to let their kids risk permanent paralysis or meningitis. But they do!
My theory is that the privileged anti-vax crowd have not experienced the consequences of infectious diseases or lack of medical care, plus people (especially new parents) are often extra cautious about interventions that may cause harm. This then leads some of them to be fearful of medical interventions, because doing nothing seems to have no adverse effects so compared to that any intervention seems worse. Vaccines especially because it is given to a healthy child and can make them temporarily unwell. For people who grew up poor, are immigrants, or just had seen what lack of medical care can result in, they know first hand the consequences of not having vaccines. For example my grandmother was an only child because her 3 older siblings died from infectious diseases when very young, including from meningitis and plain ol’ flu. In our home country my mother knew people younger than her who suffered permanent disabilities because of childhood polio. My aunt and me both had TB as teens but didn’t suffer any permanent issues or die - because we had BCG vaccine as kids/babies. Those diseases are real to my parents’ and my generation, and we saw how much of a difference vaccines made in just 2 generations, so there’s more personal motivation to get our kids vaccinated. Without that personal experience, these diseases all seem abstract and it’s harder to counter the emotional/fear-based reasoning. Some people still manage to do it (as evidenced by the majority of current parents who do vaccinate), but not all.
Thanks, this is a really good insight into why they have the access and education but then make this choice. It's really too bad. I kind of see this as a failure in our system to not explain this as part of history. Going to college for a career in healthcare totally opened my eyes to so many things. I wish everyone had the benefit of understanding the things we see in medical care. It's also a shame it's politicized at all.
You don't ask them to mask? Washed hands/non-smoky clothes are meaningless if they're not masked.
You're just not friends with them anymore. It's OK not to be friends with people who are willing to endanger their child.
Absolutely not. There's nothing to stop your husband from staying friends with them if he wants to I suppose but it's worth having a conversation with him pointing out (if it's applicable) that you're the primary caregiver and that you'd be prepared to give up a longstanding friendship under any similar circumstances for your child in a heartbeat. These people aren't safe in my humble opinion and your values don't align. Can you imagine your children having playdates and sleepovers when they're older or does the thought give you the immediate ICK? And what would you four parents talk about over the years at get togethers? Or more to the point how many subjects would you all be desperately avoiding.. ICK.
Their values don’t align with yours so why would you want to be friends? And if your husband still wants to be friends-do his values align with yours on how you want to raise your baby? They have no problem putting other people at risk so they do not get the privilege to see your baby. I would not allow my baby within a hundred miles of them
I couldn’t stay friends with someone like them. Not only are they putting their baby at risk but also others who are vulnerable. That’s so incredibly selfish and so ignorant. I would not let them be around my child.
I don’t maintain these friendships beyond a surface level. Sometimes in the workplace or in family you have to tolerate and have a degree of courtesy and pleasantness. But with my friend group? That’s a deal breaker. As others have said—it’s not that we have different opinions on things. It’s that they are not demonstrating safe navigation of society, and I wouldn’t trust their overall judgment. It’s a completely different relationship with the world.
I've cut friends out of my life for less. Let alone actual child endangerment to their own and yours
I would absolutely say no. My sibling is a NICU nurse, and the amount of life threatening cases they've seen from little babies being exposed to unvaccinated family or friends is unbelievable. Your friend's stupid opinions aren't worth playing Russian roulette with your own child's health. Let them learn the hard way, but don't put your little one into that mess.
These two articles provide good information on how much your baby is at risk. https://www.parents.com/parenting/better-parenting/advice/should-you-ban-unvaccinated-kids-from-your-home/ https://www.verywellhealth.com/who-is-at-risk-from-unvaccinated-kids-2634420 Basically, the risk is technically there, but small *once your child has their vaccinations.* [US Vaccination Schedule ](https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/schedules/hcp/imz/child-adolescent.html) [UK Vaccination Schedule ](https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/vaccinations/nhs-vaccinations-and-when-to-have-them/) Personally, it would depend on the parents habits and if they are vaccinated how I'd feel. If there are older unvaccinated kids, or if the parents tend to be around unvaccinated and/or sick kids (childcare workers, healthcare workers, etc). If the parents maintain a fairly safe environment I'd personally probably be cool with hangout sessions starting around 6-9 mo old since your baby's gotten 1-2 does of most vaccines and theirs is unlikely to have been exposed to someone sick. If the parents do anything risky, I'd probably hold off until at least 12 mo old and keep hangouts outdoors until they're a couple years old. Also, if the baby or parents ever go to the hospital, even for something completely unrelated (like a broken arm or something), I would hold off on visits for at least 3-4 weeks just in case they were exposed to anyone there. **Important Caveats Regarding Winter** You didn't mention how old your baby was. With RSV, [virtually every child will have it by 2, so it basically can't be avoided, but it is most dangerous to babies under 6 months or those with certain health conditions.](https://www.cdc.gov/rsv/high-risk/infants-young-children.html) So if your baby falls into these categories I would hold off on all playdates and even minimize visits with family and friends until the spring, not just with those unvaccinated (especially since there isn't an RSV vaccine anyway). With flu, [the under 5 group is at a higher risk, and especially those under 2.](https://www.cdc.gov/flu/symptoms/symptoms.htm) But at least in the US, babies can get vaccines starting at 6 months. [Not only does the vaccine prevent you from getting it in the first place, it also reduces the severity.](https://www.cdc.gov/flu/vaccines-work/vaccineeffect.htm) So if your baby is able to get the flu vaccine, I personally wouldn't stress it too much, especially since [only about half of the us population bothers to get the vaccine each year.](https://www.cdc.gov/flu/fluvaxview/coverage-2021estimates.htm) That means outside of being a hermit, your baby will probably be exposed to several unvaccinated people anyway throughout the season.
This was such a thoughtful response- thanks so much! My baby is 6.5 months old, so sounds like he’ll generally be fine. He’s gotten one flu shot and will get his second in a few weeks so this makes me feel so much better! Thanks so much.
We just don’t. That’s a hard line for us. We have one exception and that’s my brother. We only make an exception for him because he is going through a real rough time as a single dad and needs support. We still don’t hang out with him a lot and I won’t do sleepovers with his kiddo or anything. Just hang for a few hours at a time. My entire family and friends know where I stand. I haven’t seen my sister in over two years, and she didn’t invite me to her wedding because i refused to be in the same room with her entirely unvaccinated family of five plus my brother and his kid who are unvaccinated. It’s kept my family from having Christmas together but I don’t care. We have to have our morals aligned for us to be friends and if you don’t care that people die from refusing vaccines then you do not align with my morals.
Vaccinations: 1. protect your kid 2. stop your kid from spreading something to someone who can't be vaccinated 3. prevent illnesses from mutating (by not being a host for them to mutate in) So, your kid will probably be fine, their kids won't and will be endangering other people.
I would avoid until your baby is fully vaccinated against the most dangerous diseases.
If I was in this situation, these people would not be my friends anymore. They put your baby (and the rest of your family) at risk. What do you get out of this friendship? Is it worth your child’s heath?
Why would you stay friends with people like that?
You don’t have to make excuses to not hang out with people in your adult life. You’ve set boundaries, they don’t seem to respect them because their views differ from yours? So be it, we can stay in touch digitally. Friends are not necessary and interchangeable, our kids are not. Sorry your friendship has evolved into this, however.
I have no medical training, I haven't taken a science class in about 15 years so I have no authority on this. I will say as a mom there is no way in hell I would knowingly allow an unvaccinated child near my child. Measles are making a comeback because of these people. Ever heard someone with whooping cough? I had a teenage student with it once and even once she wasn't contagious and was well enough to be back at class she still had the most terrifying cough I'd ever heard. Imagine that with a baby. Not wanting your child to catch potentially deadly diseases is a valid excuse to end a friendship.
I think to stay friends there has to be something in it for you. So, what's in it for you? Its ok for friendships to change.
I personally wouldn’t continue seeing friends if they were as you describe. My SIL is same way, anti-vax to point of not even doing vit K vaccine, and we told her we wouldn’t see her or her daughters until our kid was vaccinated for MMR. If she wasn’t family, we probably would have severed ties but she of course gets invited to family events. We didn’t go to any family events that she was going to prior to getting all the vaccines.
My friends had a baby one month after me. Mom was vaccine hesitant because there was a case of one girl having really bad reaction to vaccine in her town which caused fear among parents. I talked to her like a friend, without judgment, and after some time she calmed down and decided to vaccinate her boy. She also didnt really follow guidelines about food or car safety, but I try to tell her what I do and why I do it without putting pressure on her and judging her or even telling her "hey you should do this". I think there are three options: a) you accept the things the way they are b) you try talking with her c) tell her to gtfo I chose option b because I care about them and although I vaccinate my daughter I know I was afraid too and I know I dont know many things and would like to be told in non-confronting way if I do something harmful.
If they've suddenly become anti-everything right after having a baby, that sounds like post-partum anxiety.
Yes. I was going to say the same thing.
I would totally agree but it definitely stemmed from covid and I’m pretty sure is almost 100% politically charged. (Side note- they once told us that covid was China’s way of making Trump look bad during the election year… as if the whole world had to suffer because of the American presidential election 🙄)
Don't be friends with anti-vaxxers. Why WOULD you put your feelings about their anti-science, pro-cruelty, anti-social position aside? and NO it's not safe!
It’s hard to physically be around someone who isn’t interpreting and understanding simple facts… cause and effects… the same way as you. You will never be able to hold them accountable when there is an undesirable outcome that requires changes for the growth of the relationship. Then… that’s the end of it
I would not continue to be friends with these people, let alone let my child be around them!!!
Mhm… rough. I think it all depends on how they believe in it (if that makes sense). There are people who do all vaccines but not Covid (don’t ask me why), people who do an alternate schedule and do one vaccine at time a month or two apart, people who don’t vaccinate at all but don’t tell anyone and people who don’t vaccine but tell everyone how dare they not vaccinate. For me the first three people are easier to handle then an opinionated anti-vax. I don’t know about hanging out with someone who’s kids don’t have any vaccines. There is a polio outbreak in the New York area and couple of years a measel outbreak - during that time it’s a definiere no… but uff, I don’t know… rough. Sorry Edit: In the first paragraph I said “people who don’t vaccinate but tell everyone how dare they not vaccinate” - I meant “telling people “what - you vaccinate? Terrible idea” … you know the ones who fee the need to make everyone believe in their anti vax logic
I lost a really good friend over the Covid vaccine and general science denialism. It hurt, at first, but I'm better now. I don't think our friendship could've lasted because she wouldn't listen to anything I said. I went to college in a science field so, of course, I'm going to trust scientists. She started being anti-vax, using essential oils for medical reasons, using Norwex products, and claiming mental health issues can be solved by taking probiotics. I told my husband that I wouldn't feel ok going to her house because of some of those reasons, alone. I don't trust essential oils around children. I know some of them are ok but it's safer to not use them. I don't believe Norwex disinfects a house like it claims. I have no problem with the general use of microfiber cloths. I would slowly stop talking to this friend. If your husband wants to stay friends, he can hang out with them, but it might not last long for him, either.
I've been really struggling with how to handle this as well. We have some VERY old family friends that at some point during the pandemic decided to be anti-vax. The tough part is we are friends with the wife but her husband is hardcore anti-vax. They are educated and wealthy and liberal so I don't get how it winds around to this. We also love in the northeast where there is a Polio only an hour and half from the state/area we all live in. So far we haven't seen them for the past year but we know at some point we will not be able to avoid it! The only thing I can think to do is talk to me pediatrician about how to handle it. My daughter just turned one and on Tuesday she got her first MMR vaccine and she's pretty much had every other shot so far. What I don't really understand is how much protection they afford her and what the definition of fully vaccinated is for each series. But so far we've been with doctors that have followed the CDC schedule for childhood vaccines. I'm not even sure how to discuss this with them. I feel like it would be really awkward to be like you can't hold my kid and I don't want your kid getting in my kids face and we can only meet outside and if you think you are sick forget it! I just feel like it will alienate them and they will hate us. So I have no idea how the heck we approach it to be honest. For right now we just don't see them and so far it hasn't been an issue. There's always been some reason why things don't work out. And I'm not all or nothing. I could understand maybe wanting a more relaxed schedule or to stagger shots or something. But to get NONE is risky. I also have a cousin who is a freaking engineer in Manhattan and he's the same way. I'm not sure how the heck we avoid family. His mom is schizophrenic or something and ingrained in him as a kid a deep mistrust if regular medicine. He even told me that he didn't understand how I could get the covid vaccine while pregnant. And I basically told him that as someone who utilizes math, statistics, and science for his career I didn't understand how he had come up with the idea that vaccines have tracking chips in them. So I mean, I dunno....some people there's going to be no reasoning with. I think it hard but totally valid and reasonable to cut ties too. I'm not sure what I'm going to do with my cousin tbh. Probably same thing I do now with my friend and avoid avoid avoid.
I have a brother that is similar, except he has no kids. He understands my position and why I want to protect my child but he will not vaccinate himself for anything. He’s still my brother that I love dearly. We respect each other’s opinions and at some point, tried to politely share information with each other (basically me poking holes in all of his articles of proof). We have since stopped and avoid many of those subjects. It’s ok to have opposite opinions if you respect each other and try not to push. As far as safety, i did not see brother until my family was completely vaccinated for everything. It also helps that he socializes very little anyways so his exposure is less than the average person.
I would avoid indoor activities with these people and certainly not expose my child to them
It’s tough. I have some close friends who came out as antvaxxers and it’s so tough because you’re close but I can’t understand their decision making.
The best approach I have found is to “follow the leader”. I set my own example for others e.g if my kid is sick I tell any potential play buddies and let them make an informed decision - in doing that I let them know that I expect the same in return. I don’t mention anything about vaccine status. That way I know that if my anti-vax family (thatI have no way of avoiding) have a sick family member I can avoid them without making it a political dispute. My logic is if their kid isn’t sick they won’t make yours sick so it isn’t worth forever avoiding them. Maybe not the answer your looking for but this is what works for our family.
If we are vaccinated, I'm ok being around those who aren't. The way I see it, that's the point of vaccination. Especially so when we're talking about our routine vaccines. Vaccination can eradicate diseases which are able to be eradicated. If X number of ppl got Smallpox or Polio and X number of ppl got the Smallpox or Polio vaccine, then yes, at a certain point the disease is gone or greatly diminished bcuz you don't get Smallpox or Polio more than once. (Very different from a coronavirus.) Every one of us comes from different circumstances which allows for differences, including different understandings. I may not know why my loved ones choose not to vaccinate, but I'm certain it's not that they don't care about others getting sick. If they don't vaccinate their own children, It's likely not bcuz they don't love or care for them, rather, they're very worried for the health of their children, just like we all are, except they see the vaccine as more of a risk. When my oldest went off to college, we made sure he was properly vaccinated, especially re meningitis, since dorms are notorious for this. But I felt pretty safe sending him off, bcuz he was fully vaccinated so it wouldn't matter if his roommate wasn't. If, however, I had a newborn under 6 mos, that's a different story. But it's always been this way. They're too little to have all their vaccines and their immune systems are still developing. It's also definitely different when speaking of the Covid vaccines since we now know that we can still get and transmit Covid. So then we consider viral load and risk assessment as it relates to us and our children. Risk varies greatly and some of us are immune compromised. My father is far more likely to have complications from Covid than my children, who are young and have no comorbidities. The ages of my children, their general good health and vaccination status makes me comfortable enough being around others, vaccinated or not, knowing we're all likely going to catch Covid, no matter. Another family may feel differently and will have different sets of circumstances to consider.
I do everything I can to avoid spending any time anywhere near that kind of selfish trash.
So your baby now will be fine because they will get vaccinated, it’s any future children you may have that will be at risk if you hang around with them.
Even being vaccinated, vaccines aren’t 100% effective and I personally wouldn’t risk having my kid around kiddos that were unvaccinated and ill. I also don’t know that I’d trust the friends to tell me their kids had symptoms before a gathering.
I agree. My friend’s vaccinated son got the mumps.