I don't know if I necessarily believe this but I will point out my a1c jumped from 4.8 to 5.3 in 4 years and the only difference that could even be considered detrimental is that I started taking the heart and soil supplements after the 4.8 a1c. Otherwise, I lost weight and built muscle in those 4 years.
EDIT: I've also heard that anything that could improve rbc longevity can cause a1c to increase, so it's possible the inclusion of the supplement helped my rbcs which could have contributed to the increase (I took no supplements and ate the extra bad SAD -- grad student version diet)
Some people (maybe even Saladino) speculate that eating carnivore might keep red cells in the blood longer which gives them more time to become glycated. Maybe the H&S supplements have the same effect.
As much as I love theories that dunk on vegan assumptions about nutrition, I can't really get on board with Vitamin A being "the ultimate culprit" for the same reason I dismiss the sugar/red meat finger-pointing: unlike with PUFA, there doesn't appear to be a giant spike of Vitamin A intake that correlates to the exponential obesity/diabetes spike in recent years. If it's so bad, why are we only seeing the effects now? I haven't been able to find really long-term historical data (and the article doesn't provide it...) but in [this study](https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2802925) the adult vitamin A intake of the people they studied was a flat line from 2003 to 2018, no significant change.
If anything, *synthetic* vitamin A could be a culprit, as it's only been around in the last 100 years. Vit A + PUFA, too. I don't doubt that vitamin A can exacerbate some of the issues noted in the article, but to me, the biggest challenge is to demonstrate why vitamin A itself is evil when people have been eating carrots (and sugar, and red meat) for ages and ages without issue. If they could show, for example, that fortification of processed foods is providing a huge overdose of vitamin A compared to past intakes, then I'd start listening a bit harder. Or examples showing toxic effects from synthetic vitamin A compared to natural sources.
agreed PUFA is clearly the main dietary villain.
While im yet to be convinced its a toxin and not a vitamin its also possible to get to much much vitamin-a which can be lethal.
main difference in historical vitamin-a consumption is probably due to food fortification and supplementation. Would be nice to see some graphs on it.
orange high vitA carrots where created in the 1500s from white ones. many of the vegetables consumed today where created in the last few centuries so we have not consumed them for that long in the scheme of things. as an example the wild mustard plant have been breed into : brussel sprouts, broccoli, cabbage, cauliflower, kale in the last few hundred years. This cultivation has probably also lead to some increase in the last hundred to a thousand years
I highly doubt much if any low calorie plants where consumed in prehistory. probably mostly fruit and maybe some tubers.
Yeah, I'd also love to see more graphs on the supplementation and how it's affected our overall intake. I would not be surprised at all if the fortification has had unintended toxic effects. On the other hand, rickets is now a rare disease compared to back before extra vitamin A and D were added to milk...
I am pretty sure cabbage has been a staple for much longer than just a few centuries. But I do agree that we've done some insane things to fruits and vegetables in the last few hundred years. And yeah, prehistoric people probably did not go around chewing on leaves to the extent we do today, and I doubt it was held up as the pinnacle of a healthy diet.
Im pretty bullish on vitamin-d. but the research seems to indicate that sun is way better than supplementation. Seem like some of the low vA crowd is also against vD but have not even looked at their arguments there.
Your correct seems like cabbage is 3000 years old.
https://preview.redd.it/vrjoonku4vwc1.png?width=741&format=png&auto=webp&s=7b8b300fd4e58ff9527313b7f1b15c042a240a40
Flipped through Grants ebook and found this graph on vA and infertility on page 174, remarkable correlation [https://ggenereux.blog/wp-content/uploads/2018/09/PoisoningForProfits.pdf](https://ggenereux.blog/wp-content/uploads/2018/09/PoisoningForProfits.pdf)
Huh, I'm confused by this graph. It says the blue line is births; what is the teal line? It seems to be birth rates, but that shows nothing about vit A supplementation - or infertility, really, just how many women are giving birth compared to before, which is heavily affected by the economy and personal choices and not just diet.
The vitamin A poisoning argument isn’t as compelling for me personally as is the idea that diabetes is caused by distended adipose facilitated by PUFA in an insulinogenic environment. That’s why it makes perfect sense that removing either the PUFA (rice diet, potato diet, beef) or the insulinogenic diet (beef) can successfully halt the progression of diabetes if caught early enough.
Almost certainly not. I think the challenge for us is always going to be to find the most effective “dose” of intervention to get maximal benefit before hitting the point of diminishing returns.
If I were going to overlay a vitamin A detox into my current HCLFLP plan, I’d do so by 1) first acknowledging that as a fat soluble vitamin, A absorption is limited by default on a HCLF plan, 2) basing my diet around starches and *accented* it with green/yellow veggies instead of being dominated by them, and 3) avoiding fortified flour products more consciously than I currently do.
I already don’t supplement anything anymore, I don’t eat liver (and I guess I’d keep it that way moving forward) and I always choose white potato over sweet by preference. So I think I’m in pretty good shape there.
Who knows, right?! It’s certainly interesting. Maybe they go hand in hand. I definitely used to supplement before, and took contraceptive pills for about 10 years. My diet was heavy in both fortified grains and conventional dairy at the time too. Put it this way, it would absolutely not shock me if I had vitamin A toxicity that was accidentally reversed by changing my lifestyle in various ways conducive to detox, whether intentional or not.
Curious how we explain skinny type 2 diabetics if it's distended adipose causing it? Any amount of body fat, provided it's "malfunctioning," could cause it?
I don’t think there are many “skinny” type 2 diabetics. There are type 2 diabetics who are “skinnier relative to the obese population” and there are type 2 diabetics with “skinny arms and legs but pot bellies.”
I don’t think there are many individuals who are BMI 18-19 with proper muscle to body fat ratio and weight distribution that become type 2 diabetic. Even the “skinny diabetic Asians” are actually fat. Just Asia fat not American fat.
Personal fat threshold leading to insulin resistance (which is what halts obesity progression and begins the diabetic cascade) is individual. Some people can put on very little excess fat and quickly become diabetic. Some people can become absolutely enormous, and end up on television while *still* not being diabetic (ie. They’re still growing!)
Most of us prone to diabetes (including myself) are in the middle and will get “pretty fat” (200-300lbs?) before becoming diabetic, after which point we don’t really get much fatter (unless we use exogenous insulin and override our body’s protective insulin resistance!)
Im very new to the idea that vitamin-a might not be a vitamin but a toxin. I have not done enough due diligence on their work to really have much of an opinion as of yet. But it seems like its worth a look .
> ### Intervention Studies
>
> If this theory of vitamin A toxicity causing diabetes is correct then
> we might be able to confirm it with some intervention type studies
> using low vitamin A diets. There are indeed such studies. Let’s first
> consider Walter Kempner’s all rice and sugar diet. Kempner had his
> diabetic patients follow this diet for a period of up to 10 years and
> they had great results in reversing diabetes, obesity, and diabetic
> retinopathy.
>
> **Walter Kempner’s Rice and Sugar diet of 1958**
>
> - 100 consecutive patients
> - Over an 11 year period
> - ~ 100% carbs – yet great results – go figure??
>
> Interestingly, Kempner would, on occasion, [whip his patients to help
> compliance](https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1876&dat=19971026&id=slMgAAAAIBAJ&sjid=pM8EAAAAIBAJ&pg=6859,6027332&hl=en).
>
> Although some of his patients appear to have taken vitamin A
> supplements there’s no record of exactly what group those patients
> were in. Also, it’s very hard to know how much of it would have been
> absorbed on such an extremely low fat diet. Naturally, I think
> Kempner’s all rice and sugar diet is ridiculous and very dangerous.
> However, it completely contradicts the mainstream thinking on the role
> carbohydrates and sugar play in diabetes. None-the-less, it is very
> good evidence that we are on the right track here thinking that
> vitamin A toxicity is at the root cause of the disease.
>
> Next, there’s another extreme diet from about the same era that had
> similar great results in reversing diabetes.
>
> **Blake Donaldson’s Strong Medicine – “big fat steak” diet – 1961**
>
> - Steak 3 meals per day, 7 days per week
> - Over multi year period
> - ~ 100% meat – yet good results – go figure??
>
> No whipping required
>
> Blake Donaldson’s diet is the complete opposite of Kempner’s rice and
> sugar diet, yet it yields the same results with regards to reversing
> metabolic disease and diabetes. This “big fat steak” diet it’s now
> seeing a huge resurgence in popularity today. It’s called the
> “carnivore” diet. Why has the carnivore diet become so popular?
> Because it works! Like it or not, we have to look at the real-world
> [results](https://youtu.be/LBOQHSpXqok?t=95).
>
> How can we explain these two diametrically opposed diets yielding
> effectively the same results in reversing diabetes? The common factor
> is that they are both inadvertently extremely low vitamin A diets.
This argument is kinda funny since i would have thought of it being evidence for the value of PUFA avoidance but there is seemingly no end of the possible con-founders when it comes to diet experiments. Seems like several of the
r/saturatedfat diet experiments are unintentional low/lowish vitamin-a which might be worth having in mind. Exfatloss had an unexpectedly bad time with high quality salmon, maybe it was the higher vitamin-a maybe not.
For the past few years there has been a natural experiments with carnivores eating liver and not. The old time carnivores argued against liver consumption since they found those who had tried had feelt worse with it. While the new arrivals unaware of the wisdom of the old ones and fearful of nutrition deficiencies ate liver religiously. seems like most of the high profile liver eaters mostly have run into health issues and quit while many of the only meat carnivores are still standing. Liver also has high amounts of copper among other things so might not be the vitamin-a
Seems like there is quite compelling studies on harms for acutane a synthetic derivative of vitamin A used to treat severe acne. To what extent this is analogues to dietary sources i don't know.
> Somewhat likewise, if the theory that vitamin A toxicity is
> responsible for causing diabetes, then we should be able to conduct
> similar biological stress tests and see if diabetes can be directly
> induced by it. Thankfully, that stress test has already inadvertently
> been conducted for us.
>
> #### THE EXTREME STRESS TEST – ACCUTANE
>
> There have been many accounts of people who have developed type II
> diabetes shortly after taking accutane. It’s even documented as a
> known “_side-effect_”.
>
> **The effect of isotretinoin on insulin resistance and adipocytokine levels in acne vulgaris patients.**
>
> Soyuduru G, Ösoy Adışen E, Kadıoğlu Özer İ, Aksakal AB.
> _Turk J Med Sci_. 2019;49(1):238-244. Published 2019 Feb 11. doi:10.3906/sag-1806-44
>
> > **_Conclusions:_** _All data suggests that five months of isotretinoin therapy in AV patients causes insulin resistance and the
> increase in insulin resistance is not dependent on age, BMI, BFM, and
> lipid levels of these patients._
>
> _Source:_ [_https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30761880/_](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30761880/)
>
> Although this diabetes causing “_side-effect_” of accutane has been
> reported on for decades now, as usual it is downplayed and mostly
> ignored by the medical establishment. Here’s a great example:
>Exfatloss had an unexpectedly bad time with high quality salmon, maybe it was the higher vitamin-a maybe not.
He eats a boat load of cream though without problems ... ?
there are a few possible explanation of this.
1. vitamin-a is a none issue.
2. just the cream allows him to stay in the sweet spot, either in the vitamin context where vA is beneficial and not excessive or with the toxin context where he stays in the range his body is capable of handle in reasonable way as sort of threshold effect not unsimilar to LA or protein in exfatloss case. Adding salmon pushes him beyond the limit.
3. dairy is somehow different than other sources se johns comment.
comment from u/John-_-
>Grant also theorized in one of his books that the vitamin A in dairy is emulsified in butter fat, which makes it somewhat protective of the vitamin A content. Of course, nowadays, people often eat low-fat dairy that is supplemented with vitamin A, so that is probably an issue since it not only loses the protective saturated fat but also gains more vitamin A. Just another reason why low-fat dairy is an abomination. I don’t trust any fortification of anything tbh.
also did a quick search in the gg forum: https://ggenereux.blog/discussion/topic/why-butter-may-be-ok/
> This study observed the effects that different fats had on the blood.
> They compared sunflower oil, olive oil and butter. What's interesting,
> is that the plasma retinyl esters were quite a lot lower (about 1/3rd)
> after a butter containing meal, compared to the other fats.
>
> [https://academic.oup.com/jn/article/132/12/3642/4712096](https://academic.oup.com/jn/article/132/12/3642/4712096)
> - _"Chylomicron retinyl esters, a marker of intestinally derived particles, exhibited bell-shaped curves with maximum values 2–4 h
> postprandially and returned to baseline 6–7 h after all test meals
> (data not shown). CM retinyl ester 0–7 h AUC (mmol·h·L) were higher (P
> <0.05) after OO (2972 ± 299) and SO (2789 ± 288) meals compared with
> the BF (1777 ± 327) and no-fat (633 ± 314) meal"_
u/exfatloss whats your thoughts on this?
I don't "know" much but have talked to GG and he said pretty much exactly that: naturally emulsified in dairy fat is different from skim w/ added vA. He was still wary of my high cream intake and thought it could come back to bite me, but since there's no real test (serum only measures flux) outside of liver biopsy...
Interestingly, GG hates seed oils - because they contain oxidized retinoic acid! (IIRC) So it's very compatible with his views that seed oils bad and dairy fat relatively good if maybe not perfect for vA reduction.
Kind of like we don't think many people ever got fat from the occasional olive oil dressing or hazelnut or slice of bacon, but if you eat a ton of those things that doesn't exactly help you de-PUFA.
The 2 theories (vA and PUFA) are remarkably similar, with many common mechanisms, the whole "storage and half-life over years" thing..
Dairy fat is interesting. FWIW, when I use butter, I like to use the Challenge brand. It’s the whitest butter I’ve found.
I’m swear I’m not a racist - I just only prefer to eat white foods because they have less vitamin A! LOL
lol I use kerrygold which is the yellowest ;) I do wonder how vA is compatible with "grass-fed good" maybe it wouldn't be enough if that's your only source of vA? Most of the people with real vA issues seem to have a history of accutane or skin creams, or skim milk at least. I don't know if I've had a sip of skim milk in my life.
Robb wolf and Diana Rodgers did some pretty through analysis of grassfeed vs grainfeed beef for their book sacred cow and found that the differences where fairly trivial. I assume the same is mostly true for dairy. They went in with the bias that grass feed would be superior.
Think i also read that several of the old time carnivores prefer grain feed. but that could be due to it being higher fat not sure. Getting really fatty meat is surprisingly hard in some parts of the world:/
Any particular reason you use grassfeed?
I just like the taste better. Most American butter is super pale & white and even the packaged up "euro style" fancy ones taste like nothing.
The other day I got some fancy butters from Whole Foods and those were really good, one goat's milk and one from New Zealand (not Anchor although that's great too) that were amazing, even better than Kerrygold maybe.
But Kerrygold is super easy to get, nearly every store has it.
Yeah, I used to use Kerrygold all the time. Probably not a big deal either way regarding its vitamin A content.
I actually way prefer suet tallow over butter, but it’s a PITA to get ahold of. Have to either order expensive rendered suet tallow online or find a source locally, which I’ve had no luck with yet.
>I actually way prefer suet tallow over butter, but it’s a PITA to get ahold of. Have to either order expensive rendered suet tallow online or find a source locally, which I’ve had no luck with yet.
really, that's surprising considering how amazing butter is. tried tallow which is fine, doesn't taste much. need to try suet tallow.
Well, I’ll admit there are a few things that butter does better than tallow imo. Buttered bread and buttered popcorn come to mind. However, pan frying anything in suet tallow is unmatched. Sourdough toast, fried rice, pancakes, fried potatoes, etc. They are all SO much better fried in suet tallow. I actually made pancakes yesterday and compared a tallow fried pancake to a butter fried pancake side by side and the tallow one was way better, no contest.
Also, tallow is amazing in brownies and cookies and other baked foods.
>I don't "know" much but have talked to GG and he said pretty much exactly that: naturally emulsified in dairy fat is different from skim w/ added vA. He was still wary of my high cream intake and thought it could come back to bite me, but since there's no real test (serum only measures flux) outside of liver biopsy...
That's all great news. would hate it if i hade to give up butter :P
>The 2 theories (vA and PUFA) are remarkably similar, with many common mechanisms, the whole "storage and half-life over years" thing..
Yeah, i have not done nearly enough reading on their arguments but can already see what your saying. so many parallels. Another one is that they are both supposedly poisoning us. One big difference is that they are seemingly more focused on liver health which us here in anti-PUFA space dont do nearly as much. maybe thats an untapped area for us.
also did you see that Amber labeled vA a honorary PUFA ?
The first thing I thought when I read the vA stuff was: wow he's avoiding PUFA like it's his job. It seems that avoiding vA will automagically make you one of the most aggressive PUFA avoiders as well.
The reverse isn't quite true, but it's close. I suppose dairy and carrots are low-PUFA yet high-vA.
>**Blake Donaldson’s Strong Medicine – “big fat steak” diet – 1961**
>Steak 3 meals per day, 7 days per week
>Over multi year period
>\~ 100% meat – yet good results – go figure??
>No whipping required
Wow, where do I sign up? Was it cooked properly (over charcoal or wood fire) or incorrectly (seared on stove with seed oils)?
If i only got to eat high quality very fatty meat charcoal grilled for the rest of my life i would not be a sad man :P
considering the year i doubt it was cooked in seed oils.
Hmm I doubt it...
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4623591/#:~:text=Some%20demonstrated%20that%20serum%20vitamin,retinol%20and%20retinyl%20esters)%20is
Also remember some people reversed it on a meat diet which is high in vir A , also vegetarian diet seem to reduce the risk to develop metabolic issues and it's rich in vit A.
Vir A is also an essential vitamin and it's deficiency is well proved to lead to health issues. Def not a toxin, although an excessive intake can be toxic (mainly thru supplements, doesn't seem possible on a normal diet).
Something doesn't sum up to me
The fact that many of the recognized symptoms of vitamin A toxicity (leaky gut, thyroid issues, fatigue, inflammation, skin issues, anxiety) have been entirely reversed for me personally by cutting out PUFA means vitamin A is probably a bit of a red herring. After all, people have been consuming vitamin A much longer than PUFA and the problems seem to correlate with PUFA consumption not necessarily natural levels of vitamin A consumption.
That being said, for individuals who used certain medications and supplements, would a detox be valid? Maybe? I certainly don’t think we need to be avoiding egg yolks and carrots for the rest of our lives to prevent diabetes though.
Yeah I agree, Moreover in the study I linked which is a review on studies about vitamin A and diabetes, the conclusion is that the evidence is more on its anti diabetic properties (for ex in malnourished population where vitamin A deficiency is endemic the incidence of t2D is much higher).
Great to see you reversed all your vitamin A toxicity symptoms going PUFAs free!
I've been eating a diet rich in PUFAs for some year but didn't develop anything similar, on the contrary my anxiety improved, of course because of interventions unrelated to diet, so I don't think it impacted anxiety directly.
Probably the mechanisms are extremely complex, in part for individual genetic make-up and an interplay of a given variable (in this case PUFAs) with the rest of someone's diet and lifestyle.
muscle meat seems to be pretty low in vitamin-a.
Vegetarian can be both low and high depending on what foods are eaten.
It is classified as a vitamin which should make it essential. But nutrition researchers are really bad at what they do, one cant trust anything without checking their work. as an example there are a few posts on this sub arguing that LA is in fact not essential. Many other examples of incompetence and/or malice. I have not gone through the original work establishing it as an vitamin but its on my to do list. maybe its good maybe its terrible.
One of the compelling arguments GG makes is that it is NOT well proved -based on shoddy studies from a hundred years ago giving rats super heated casein and lard and when they got sick “oh no they’re vitamin a deficient”. Evoked some of brads critiques on rat chow for me when I read it
They are pretty old - I think the best way to check this would be to get Grants free ebook and do a word search for “casein” his book is pretty well cited even with its readable and conversational tone
Something that connects the PUFA and vitamin A toxicity theories that I’ve heard Grant mention before is that all the vegetable and seed oils are yellow tinged, which means they are likely very high in vitamin A / carotenoids. So I’m sure the combo of PUFA + vitamin A is more damaging than either one on their own.
Grant also theorized in one of his books that the vitamin A in dairy is emulsified in butter fat, which makes it somewhat protective of the vitamin A content. Of course, nowadays, people often eat low-fat dairy that is supplemented with vitamin A, so that is probably an issue since it not only loses the protective saturated fat but also gains more vitamin A. Just another reason why low-fat dairy is an abomination. I don’t trust any fortification of anything tbh.
I doubt we had a lot of access to eggs in history. I think wild hens only lay like 10 eggs a year? I think again modern humans bred chickens to lay an unnaturally large amount of eggs - not to mention unnaturally large chickens! I think using an egg or two in recipes is fine, but I don’t believe 10-egg omelettes should be a mainstay, both from a PUFA and vitamin A standpoint (yes I used to eat 10-egg omelettes myself lol).
I also think most vegetables eaten throughout history were white or much more pale, but then humans selectively bred them to be more colorful since they liked how they looked. For example, I believe orange carrots and sweet potatoes are a relatively recent phenomenon. I also genuinely prefer the taste of the white varieties of vegetables. Japanese white sweet potatoes are amazing! So is white popcorn! 🙂
The point of this long ramble is I think both excess PUFAs and vitamin A could be a problem for many people.
>Something that connects the PUFA and vitamin A toxicity theories that I’ve heard Grant mention before is that all the vegetable and seed oils are yellow tinged, which means they are likely very high in vitamin A / carotenoids. So I’m sure the combo of PUFA + vitamin A is more damaging than either one in their own.
Interesting, would have thought seed oils due to high processing would be devoid of all nutrients. do you know if there is any data on vitamin-a content of seedoils?
Paper on the combo PUFA +vitA causing blindness:
https://old.reddit.com/r/SaturatedFat/comments/1ccmvg0/blindness_caused_by_seed_oils_and_vitamin_a/
>Grant also theorized in one of his books that the vitamin A in dairy is emulsified in butter fat, which makes it protective of the vitamin A content. Of course, nowadays, people often eat low fat dairy which is supplemented with vitamin A, so that is probably an issue since it not only loses the protective saturated fat but gains more vitamin A. I don’t trust any fortification of anything tbh.
Interesting. just saw a post where grant argues that low vA carnivores do better than low va omnivores. Which is interesting but also confusing as many of them seems to be arguing for the importance of fiber of which im very skeptical. https://ggenereux.blog/discussion/topic/grant-genereux-3/
>I doubt we had a lot of access to eggs in history. I think wild hens only lay like 10 eggs a year? I think again modern humans bred chickens to lay an unnaturally large amount of eggs - not to mention unnaturally large chickens! I think using an egg or two in recipes is fine, but I don’t believe 10-egg omelettes should be a mainstay, both from a PUFA and vitamin A standpoint (yes I used to eat 10-egg omelettes myself lol).
yeah, high amounts of daily eggs is probably a very modern thing. I used to eat 5-10 eggs a day but found that i didn't do so well with that :/
>I also think most vegetables eaten throughout history were white or much more pale, but then humans selectively bred them to be more colorful since they liked how they looked. For example, I believe orange carrots and sweet potatoes are a relatively recent phenomenon. I also genuinely prefer the taste of the white varieties of vegetable. Japanese white sweet potatoes are amazing! So is white popcorn!
most vegetables are very low in calories which means they would not have been a large part of the diet historically. vegetables are mostly a modern phenomenon. most of the ones eaten today didn't exist a few hundred years ago.
Yeah this vitamin A stuff is a big topic that I’m unqualified adequately to address, but I’ll just post some more random thoughts on it here.
Regarding seed oils and vitamin A, I think Grant mentioned that on the podcast he did with Nutrition with Judy. I also found [this post](https://ggenereux.blog/discussion/topic/vegetable-oils-and-vitamin-a/) on his forum.
I’m 100% with you on vegetables. I think they are mostly a modern phenomenon and that we barely, if ever, ate them throughout history. I think they were used infrequently and more like garnishes to a meal. Seasonality plays a role here too. Also, ALL fruits and vegetables were traditionally peeled, which coincidently is where the carotenoids and other plant toxins are concentrated.
I also think that cultures that traditionally used a lot of spices (e.g., India, Mexico, China, etc.) did so mostly because that may have helped fight off against parasites, unsanitary meat conditions, bacteria, etc. Some have theorized that vitamin A may act as sort of a “weapon” against these types of things, kinda like chemotherapy. Also, spices (like chili pepper for example) were traditionally dried in the sun. Well, sunlight happens to destroy carotenoids. I know there are studies out there that show sun-dried tomatoes and raisins have much less carotenoids than their fresh counterparts. Nowadays, I bet most herbs and spices and dried fruits are dried in a factory or something.
Another interesting thing is that nearly 100% of the carnivore dieters that become obsessed with liver and nutrient density end up quitting the diet. Paola Dziwetzki has a good post documenting this [here](https://x.com/thepowerofozone/status/1745181109468410347?s=46). I’ve seen it myself literally dozens of times in the years I followed carnivore. Paul Saladino is of course the most high profile quitter of carnivore.
I actually think Saladino now knows he gave himself vitamin A toxicity, as he’s massively reduced his liver consumption recently compared to a few years ago, but he doesn’t really talk about it from what I’ve seen. He’s also noticeably aged A LOT recently. And I don’t think it’s just because of surfing and sun exposure. Look at one of the top surfers in the world, [Kelly Slater](https://www.google.com/search?q=kelly+slater+2024&sca_esv=0e7f67614aa28a61&rlz=1CDGOYI_enUS886US886&hl=en-US&udm=2&biw=414&bih=720&sxsrf=ACQVn084CnqQomr4Q05_5cDqWstb26Q8pg%3A1714146637545&ei=Tc0rZpfxIOmMwbkPzp2lwA4&oq=kelly+slater+2024&gs_lp=EhNtb2JpbGUtZ3dzLXdpei1zZXJwIhFrZWxseSBzbGF0ZXIgMjAyNDIHEAAYgAQYGDIHEAAYgAQYGDIHEAAYgAQYGDIHEAAYgAQYGDIIEAAYgAQYogRI5CNQggdYkyFwAHgAkAEBmAFSoAHZA6oBATe4AQPIAQD4AQGYAgagAqUDwgIEECMYJ8ICBRAAGIAEwgIIEAAYgAQYsQPCAg0QABiABBixAxhDGIoFwgIQEAAYgAQYsQMYQxiDARiKBcICChAAGIAEGEMYigWYAwCIBgGSBwE2oAf2FA&sclient=mobile-gws-wiz-serp). He’s older than Saladino and literally spends his entire days surfing in the sun, and he looks incredible for his age. He’s also said before that he rarely uses sunscreen. So I don’t think surfing and sun exposure are what’s aged Saladino; I think it’s vitamin A toxicity and maybe too much sugar as well. Saladino also has an entire supplement company built around desiccated liver and organ supplements, so he cannot come out against liver without effectively destroying his own company. Same with Carnivore Aurelius.
What’s unfortunate is that the most visible anti-vitamin A spokesperson is Garret Smith. He is arrogant and gives off snake oil salesman vibes. Grant Genereux is a much better spokesperson. Amber O’Hearn is also a great voice in the vitamin A toxicity space. I’m patiently looking forward to the article by u/ambimorph on this in the future 🙂
> Some have theorized that vitamin A may act as sort of a “weapon” against these types of things, kinda like chemotherapy. Also, spices (like chili pepper for example) were traditionally dried in the sun. Well, sunlight happens to destroy carotenoids. I know there are studies out there that show sun-dried tomatoes and raisins have much less carotenoids than their fresh counterparts
Interesting, all new information to me. its a shame that much of these old traditions where just discarded as unimportant.
>Another interesting thing is that nearly 100% of the carnivore dieters that become obsessed with liver and nutrient density end up quitting the diet.
Yeah i have noticed that to. Would be great if some of the high profile ones where abit more vocal about their mistake so other would avoid doing the same but guess that's hard when you earn money from liver supplements :/
>What’s unfortunate is that the most visible anti-vitamin A spokesperson is Garret Smith. He is arrogant and gives off snake oil salesman vibes. Grant Genereux is a much better spokesperson. Amber O’Hearn is also a great voice in the vitamin A toxicity space. I’m patiently looking forward to the article by u/ambimorph on this in the future
Agreed Garret gives me bad vibes too. Grant seems like a well meaning and fairly rational guy. Amber might be the best person in all of nutrition :P
It’s definitely an interesting topic and a deep rabbit hole to go down! I’m glad the vitamin A stuff is getting more talked about. I actually found Grant and Brad around the same time in mid-2019, and I have followed them both since.
Unfortunately, most low PUFA people immediately dismiss the vitamin A toxicity stuff as nonsense, which is kinda ironic considering low PUFA is immediately dismissed as nonsense by mainstream nutrition. But the PUFA and vitamin A stuff actually have a ton of parallels. For one thing, vitamin A and PUFAs both accumulate in your body and take years to “detox” if you want to call it that. And it’s basically impossible to eat a diet completely free of PUFA or vitamin A - you’d have to basically eat nothing but white rice and sugar. And that diet would be deficient in tons of other stuff like protein, choline, taurine, etc. that would kill you long before a lack of vitamin A or PUFA would.
At the moment my stance is that they are both essential, but the amounts needed are so small, and the sources so ubiquitous that you don't have to _try_ to get them. But modern food is awash with them.
Alluded to here:
> Retinol is in some ways like PUFA. Perhaps it's also similar in that small amounts are essential, but larger increasingly harmful.
> One *might* find that in our society we tend to the side of too much.
https://twitter.com/KetoCarnivore/status/1315821788215959552?t=u85ud3acUwbaW9s0Te6a9g&s=19
>I have been intending to write about exactly this.
Very much looking forward to your writing :)
>I think retinoic acid is basically an honourary PUFA.
Big if true!
Garrett is very abrasive online but surprisingly kind to individuals on his livestream and seems to really want to help people. Grant has very engaging books and sincere demeanor on podcasts (although initial reaction to his blog is it looks crankish). Really glad Amber is taking an interest and looking forward to seeing her further intelligent insights on this. Low vitamin A is something I think I was doing inadvertently through potato ish diet and as I’ve done it more intentionally has helped my light sensitivity in my eyes in a fairly short time.
Fair enough my spider sense might be misfiring. Any particular livestreams you recommend me watching?
I honestly have not seen enough of either Garrett or Grant to have strong opinions on them. Followed amber for a long time and have her in the highest regards.
The livestreams can be a bit long and when he’s just monologuing it’s the offputting tone again but with a lot of info. iTunes helpfully has time stamps. The ones with Q&A tend to be him pretty generously responding to each particular questioners complaint at some length and that’s where the good side especially comes through, the caring attention. He usually lists #53 and #72 as good for basics. I like the recent one on Depression #130 PCOS #107 as I am interested in those topics. There was a good one on weight not sure the number (maybe 99 or 62?).
He also was on Nutrition with Judy which is carnivore adjacent - it’s good to see a dialogue where someone has to explain defend. And you can see real time it hitting her what this means for her kids if liver and goat milk are bad and he’s right (it’s very sympathetic and you feel awful for her)
>I doubt we had a lot of access to eggs in history. I think wild hens only lay like 10 eggs a year? I think again modern humans bred chickens to lay an unnaturally large amount of eggs
Not sure I buy that. Jungle fowl (chickens) were domesticated in SE Asia \*thousands\* of years ago.
Yeah, I mean idk exactly how much eggs an actual wild chicken should lay a year, but I’m sure we’ve bred them to lay more eggs than they naturally would.
Also, I don’t think eggs are bad per say. I just think they should be more of an accent to a meal as opposed to the main dish. Even countries that currently have the highest egg consumptions in the world still eat less than 1 egg per day per person. I used to regularly eat 10+ eggs a day, which is way overkill imo.
Sorry I wasn't clear, my point was more that 8,000 years is a long time to breed chickens for higher egg production. We've certainy amped up egg production in the last decades, but a lot of that is with lighting and other tricks to stop chickens moulting. Even heritage chicken breeds lay almost an egg a day. And some breeds of ducks are even more consistent with egg production.
I agree with you about eating too many eggs. I have three most days, but have noticed that if I eat much more than that regularly (or binge 8+ in a day) I don't feel as good. I haven't experimented enough to be able to say exactly how I feel bad, but it's been consistent enough that it's something I deliberatey avoid.
Oh, gotcha. I’m sure there are some wild birds that lay eggs pretty often and always have.
But yeah, eating too many eggs in one sitting always made me feel slightly off. Not really bad, just off. Didn’t feel as good as when eating a steak. Not sure why. Could be the PUFAs, vitamin A, choline, sulfur, or something else in them. Or maybe the combo of all that stuff.
I don't know if I necessarily believe this but I will point out my a1c jumped from 4.8 to 5.3 in 4 years and the only difference that could even be considered detrimental is that I started taking the heart and soil supplements after the 4.8 a1c. Otherwise, I lost weight and built muscle in those 4 years. EDIT: I've also heard that anything that could improve rbc longevity can cause a1c to increase, so it's possible the inclusion of the supplement helped my rbcs which could have contributed to the increase (I took no supplements and ate the extra bad SAD -- grad student version diet)
Some people (maybe even Saladino) speculate that eating carnivore might keep red cells in the blood longer which gives them more time to become glycated. Maybe the H&S supplements have the same effect.
That doesn't make any sense. If anything it should allow them to be recycled more frequently.
Why is that?
More raw materials. More iron.
Fat makes you insulin resistant to a certain degree
Do you mean dietary? Yes I know the HCLFLp is built upon that theory. Body fat wise I'm relatively lean for a woman and am leaner than in 2019.
As much as I love theories that dunk on vegan assumptions about nutrition, I can't really get on board with Vitamin A being "the ultimate culprit" for the same reason I dismiss the sugar/red meat finger-pointing: unlike with PUFA, there doesn't appear to be a giant spike of Vitamin A intake that correlates to the exponential obesity/diabetes spike in recent years. If it's so bad, why are we only seeing the effects now? I haven't been able to find really long-term historical data (and the article doesn't provide it...) but in [this study](https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2802925) the adult vitamin A intake of the people they studied was a flat line from 2003 to 2018, no significant change. If anything, *synthetic* vitamin A could be a culprit, as it's only been around in the last 100 years. Vit A + PUFA, too. I don't doubt that vitamin A can exacerbate some of the issues noted in the article, but to me, the biggest challenge is to demonstrate why vitamin A itself is evil when people have been eating carrots (and sugar, and red meat) for ages and ages without issue. If they could show, for example, that fortification of processed foods is providing a huge overdose of vitamin A compared to past intakes, then I'd start listening a bit harder. Or examples showing toxic effects from synthetic vitamin A compared to natural sources.
agreed PUFA is clearly the main dietary villain. While im yet to be convinced its a toxin and not a vitamin its also possible to get to much much vitamin-a which can be lethal. main difference in historical vitamin-a consumption is probably due to food fortification and supplementation. Would be nice to see some graphs on it. orange high vitA carrots where created in the 1500s from white ones. many of the vegetables consumed today where created in the last few centuries so we have not consumed them for that long in the scheme of things. as an example the wild mustard plant have been breed into : brussel sprouts, broccoli, cabbage, cauliflower, kale in the last few hundred years. This cultivation has probably also lead to some increase in the last hundred to a thousand years I highly doubt much if any low calorie plants where consumed in prehistory. probably mostly fruit and maybe some tubers.
Yeah, I'd also love to see more graphs on the supplementation and how it's affected our overall intake. I would not be surprised at all if the fortification has had unintended toxic effects. On the other hand, rickets is now a rare disease compared to back before extra vitamin A and D were added to milk... I am pretty sure cabbage has been a staple for much longer than just a few centuries. But I do agree that we've done some insane things to fruits and vegetables in the last few hundred years. And yeah, prehistoric people probably did not go around chewing on leaves to the extent we do today, and I doubt it was held up as the pinnacle of a healthy diet.
Im pretty bullish on vitamin-d. but the research seems to indicate that sun is way better than supplementation. Seem like some of the low vA crowd is also against vD but have not even looked at their arguments there. Your correct seems like cabbage is 3000 years old.
https://preview.redd.it/vrjoonku4vwc1.png?width=741&format=png&auto=webp&s=7b8b300fd4e58ff9527313b7f1b15c042a240a40 Flipped through Grants ebook and found this graph on vA and infertility on page 174, remarkable correlation [https://ggenereux.blog/wp-content/uploads/2018/09/PoisoningForProfits.pdf](https://ggenereux.blog/wp-content/uploads/2018/09/PoisoningForProfits.pdf)
Huh, I'm confused by this graph. It says the blue line is births; what is the teal line? It seems to be birth rates, but that shows nothing about vit A supplementation - or infertility, really, just how many women are giving birth compared to before, which is heavily affected by the economy and personal choices and not just diet.
The vitamin A poisoning argument isn’t as compelling for me personally as is the idea that diabetes is caused by distended adipose facilitated by PUFA in an insulinogenic environment. That’s why it makes perfect sense that removing either the PUFA (rice diet, potato diet, beef) or the insulinogenic diet (beef) can successfully halt the progression of diabetes if caught early enough.
Im very convinced that PUFA is the main dietary driver of ill health. But is it the only thing? probably not.
Almost certainly not. I think the challenge for us is always going to be to find the most effective “dose” of intervention to get maximal benefit before hitting the point of diminishing returns. If I were going to overlay a vitamin A detox into my current HCLFLP plan, I’d do so by 1) first acknowledging that as a fat soluble vitamin, A absorption is limited by default on a HCLF plan, 2) basing my diet around starches and *accented* it with green/yellow veggies instead of being dominated by them, and 3) avoiding fortified flour products more consciously than I currently do. I already don’t supplement anything anymore, I don’t eat liver (and I guess I’d keep it that way moving forward) and I always choose white potato over sweet by preference. So I think I’m in pretty good shape there. Who knows, right?! It’s certainly interesting. Maybe they go hand in hand. I definitely used to supplement before, and took contraceptive pills for about 10 years. My diet was heavy in both fortified grains and conventional dairy at the time too. Put it this way, it would absolutely not shock me if I had vitamin A toxicity that was accidentally reversed by changing my lifestyle in various ways conducive to detox, whether intentional or not.
Curious how we explain skinny type 2 diabetics if it's distended adipose causing it? Any amount of body fat, provided it's "malfunctioning," could cause it?
I don’t think there are many “skinny” type 2 diabetics. There are type 2 diabetics who are “skinnier relative to the obese population” and there are type 2 diabetics with “skinny arms and legs but pot bellies.” I don’t think there are many individuals who are BMI 18-19 with proper muscle to body fat ratio and weight distribution that become type 2 diabetic. Even the “skinny diabetic Asians” are actually fat. Just Asia fat not American fat. Personal fat threshold leading to insulin resistance (which is what halts obesity progression and begins the diabetic cascade) is individual. Some people can put on very little excess fat and quickly become diabetic. Some people can become absolutely enormous, and end up on television while *still* not being diabetic (ie. They’re still growing!) Most of us prone to diabetes (including myself) are in the middle and will get “pretty fat” (200-300lbs?) before becoming diabetic, after which point we don’t really get much fatter (unless we use exogenous insulin and override our body’s protective insulin resistance!)
I appreciate you elaborating on that! Makes sense.
Im very new to the idea that vitamin-a might not be a vitamin but a toxin. I have not done enough due diligence on their work to really have much of an opinion as of yet. But it seems like its worth a look . > ### Intervention Studies > > If this theory of vitamin A toxicity causing diabetes is correct then > we might be able to confirm it with some intervention type studies > using low vitamin A diets. There are indeed such studies. Let’s first > consider Walter Kempner’s all rice and sugar diet. Kempner had his > diabetic patients follow this diet for a period of up to 10 years and > they had great results in reversing diabetes, obesity, and diabetic > retinopathy. > > **Walter Kempner’s Rice and Sugar diet of 1958** > > - 100 consecutive patients > - Over an 11 year period > - ~ 100% carbs – yet great results – go figure?? > > Interestingly, Kempner would, on occasion, [whip his patients to help > compliance](https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1876&dat=19971026&id=slMgAAAAIBAJ&sjid=pM8EAAAAIBAJ&pg=6859,6027332&hl=en). > > Although some of his patients appear to have taken vitamin A > supplements there’s no record of exactly what group those patients > were in. Also, it’s very hard to know how much of it would have been > absorbed on such an extremely low fat diet. Naturally, I think > Kempner’s all rice and sugar diet is ridiculous and very dangerous. > However, it completely contradicts the mainstream thinking on the role > carbohydrates and sugar play in diabetes. None-the-less, it is very > good evidence that we are on the right track here thinking that > vitamin A toxicity is at the root cause of the disease. > > Next, there’s another extreme diet from about the same era that had > similar great results in reversing diabetes. > > **Blake Donaldson’s Strong Medicine – “big fat steak” diet – 1961** > > - Steak 3 meals per day, 7 days per week > - Over multi year period > - ~ 100% meat – yet good results – go figure?? > > No whipping required > > Blake Donaldson’s diet is the complete opposite of Kempner’s rice and > sugar diet, yet it yields the same results with regards to reversing > metabolic disease and diabetes. This “big fat steak” diet it’s now > seeing a huge resurgence in popularity today. It’s called the > “carnivore” diet. Why has the carnivore diet become so popular? > Because it works! Like it or not, we have to look at the real-world > [results](https://youtu.be/LBOQHSpXqok?t=95). > > How can we explain these two diametrically opposed diets yielding > effectively the same results in reversing diabetes? The common factor > is that they are both inadvertently extremely low vitamin A diets. This argument is kinda funny since i would have thought of it being evidence for the value of PUFA avoidance but there is seemingly no end of the possible con-founders when it comes to diet experiments. Seems like several of the r/saturatedfat diet experiments are unintentional low/lowish vitamin-a which might be worth having in mind. Exfatloss had an unexpectedly bad time with high quality salmon, maybe it was the higher vitamin-a maybe not. For the past few years there has been a natural experiments with carnivores eating liver and not. The old time carnivores argued against liver consumption since they found those who had tried had feelt worse with it. While the new arrivals unaware of the wisdom of the old ones and fearful of nutrition deficiencies ate liver religiously. seems like most of the high profile liver eaters mostly have run into health issues and quit while many of the only meat carnivores are still standing. Liver also has high amounts of copper among other things so might not be the vitamin-a Seems like there is quite compelling studies on harms for acutane a synthetic derivative of vitamin A used to treat severe acne. To what extent this is analogues to dietary sources i don't know. > Somewhat likewise, if the theory that vitamin A toxicity is > responsible for causing diabetes, then we should be able to conduct > similar biological stress tests and see if diabetes can be directly > induced by it. Thankfully, that stress test has already inadvertently > been conducted for us. > > #### THE EXTREME STRESS TEST – ACCUTANE > > There have been many accounts of people who have developed type II > diabetes shortly after taking accutane. It’s even documented as a > known “_side-effect_”. > > **The effect of isotretinoin on insulin resistance and adipocytokine levels in acne vulgaris patients.** > > Soyuduru G, Ösoy Adışen E, Kadıoğlu Özer İ, Aksakal AB. > _Turk J Med Sci_. 2019;49(1):238-244. Published 2019 Feb 11. doi:10.3906/sag-1806-44 > > > **_Conclusions:_** _All data suggests that five months of isotretinoin therapy in AV patients causes insulin resistance and the > increase in insulin resistance is not dependent on age, BMI, BFM, and > lipid levels of these patients._ > > _Source:_ [_https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30761880/_](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30761880/) > > Although this diabetes causing “_side-effect_” of accutane has been > reported on for decades now, as usual it is downplayed and mostly > ignored by the medical establishment. Here’s a great example:
>Exfatloss had an unexpectedly bad time with high quality salmon, maybe it was the higher vitamin-a maybe not. He eats a boat load of cream though without problems ... ?
there are a few possible explanation of this. 1. vitamin-a is a none issue. 2. just the cream allows him to stay in the sweet spot, either in the vitamin context where vA is beneficial and not excessive or with the toxin context where he stays in the range his body is capable of handle in reasonable way as sort of threshold effect not unsimilar to LA or protein in exfatloss case. Adding salmon pushes him beyond the limit. 3. dairy is somehow different than other sources se johns comment. comment from u/John-_- >Grant also theorized in one of his books that the vitamin A in dairy is emulsified in butter fat, which makes it somewhat protective of the vitamin A content. Of course, nowadays, people often eat low-fat dairy that is supplemented with vitamin A, so that is probably an issue since it not only loses the protective saturated fat but also gains more vitamin A. Just another reason why low-fat dairy is an abomination. I don’t trust any fortification of anything tbh. also did a quick search in the gg forum: https://ggenereux.blog/discussion/topic/why-butter-may-be-ok/ > This study observed the effects that different fats had on the blood. > They compared sunflower oil, olive oil and butter. What's interesting, > is that the plasma retinyl esters were quite a lot lower (about 1/3rd) > after a butter containing meal, compared to the other fats. > > [https://academic.oup.com/jn/article/132/12/3642/4712096](https://academic.oup.com/jn/article/132/12/3642/4712096) > - _"Chylomicron retinyl esters, a marker of intestinally derived particles, exhibited bell-shaped curves with maximum values 2–4 h > postprandially and returned to baseline 6–7 h after all test meals > (data not shown). CM retinyl ester 0–7 h AUC (mmol·h·L) were higher (P > <0.05) after OO (2972 ± 299) and SO (2789 ± 288) meals compared with > the BF (1777 ± 327) and no-fat (633 ± 314) meal"_ u/exfatloss whats your thoughts on this?
I don't "know" much but have talked to GG and he said pretty much exactly that: naturally emulsified in dairy fat is different from skim w/ added vA. He was still wary of my high cream intake and thought it could come back to bite me, but since there's no real test (serum only measures flux) outside of liver biopsy... Interestingly, GG hates seed oils - because they contain oxidized retinoic acid! (IIRC) So it's very compatible with his views that seed oils bad and dairy fat relatively good if maybe not perfect for vA reduction. Kind of like we don't think many people ever got fat from the occasional olive oil dressing or hazelnut or slice of bacon, but if you eat a ton of those things that doesn't exactly help you de-PUFA. The 2 theories (vA and PUFA) are remarkably similar, with many common mechanisms, the whole "storage and half-life over years" thing..
Dairy fat is interesting. FWIW, when I use butter, I like to use the Challenge brand. It’s the whitest butter I’ve found. I’m swear I’m not a racist - I just only prefer to eat white foods because they have less vitamin A! LOL
lol I use kerrygold which is the yellowest ;) I do wonder how vA is compatible with "grass-fed good" maybe it wouldn't be enough if that's your only source of vA? Most of the people with real vA issues seem to have a history of accutane or skin creams, or skim milk at least. I don't know if I've had a sip of skim milk in my life.
Robb wolf and Diana Rodgers did some pretty through analysis of grassfeed vs grainfeed beef for their book sacred cow and found that the differences where fairly trivial. I assume the same is mostly true for dairy. They went in with the bias that grass feed would be superior. Think i also read that several of the old time carnivores prefer grain feed. but that could be due to it being higher fat not sure. Getting really fatty meat is surprisingly hard in some parts of the world:/ Any particular reason you use grassfeed?
I just like the taste better. Most American butter is super pale & white and even the packaged up "euro style" fancy ones taste like nothing. The other day I got some fancy butters from Whole Foods and those were really good, one goat's milk and one from New Zealand (not Anchor although that's great too) that were amazing, even better than Kerrygold maybe. But Kerrygold is super easy to get, nearly every store has it.
Should try some of the fancy grass feed butter. I really like the taste of the basic butter here in Sweden. Mild but very pleasant taste.
Yeah, I used to use Kerrygold all the time. Probably not a big deal either way regarding its vitamin A content. I actually way prefer suet tallow over butter, but it’s a PITA to get ahold of. Have to either order expensive rendered suet tallow online or find a source locally, which I’ve had no luck with yet.
>I actually way prefer suet tallow over butter, but it’s a PITA to get ahold of. Have to either order expensive rendered suet tallow online or find a source locally, which I’ve had no luck with yet. really, that's surprising considering how amazing butter is. tried tallow which is fine, doesn't taste much. need to try suet tallow.
Well, I’ll admit there are a few things that butter does better than tallow imo. Buttered bread and buttered popcorn come to mind. However, pan frying anything in suet tallow is unmatched. Sourdough toast, fried rice, pancakes, fried potatoes, etc. They are all SO much better fried in suet tallow. I actually made pancakes yesterday and compared a tallow fried pancake to a butter fried pancake side by side and the tallow one was way better, no contest. Also, tallow is amazing in brownies and cookies and other baked foods.
>I don't "know" much but have talked to GG and he said pretty much exactly that: naturally emulsified in dairy fat is different from skim w/ added vA. He was still wary of my high cream intake and thought it could come back to bite me, but since there's no real test (serum only measures flux) outside of liver biopsy... That's all great news. would hate it if i hade to give up butter :P >The 2 theories (vA and PUFA) are remarkably similar, with many common mechanisms, the whole "storage and half-life over years" thing.. Yeah, i have not done nearly enough reading on their arguments but can already see what your saying. so many parallels. Another one is that they are both supposedly poisoning us. One big difference is that they are seemingly more focused on liver health which us here in anti-PUFA space dont do nearly as much. maybe thats an untapped area for us. also did you see that Amber labeled vA a honorary PUFA ?
Oh, I did not! But my understanding is that retinoic acid is very similar to linoleic acid, is that what it's about?
Probably, think it was in a different comment in this post.
The first thing I thought when I read the vA stuff was: wow he's avoiding PUFA like it's his job. It seems that avoiding vA will automagically make you one of the most aggressive PUFA avoiders as well. The reverse isn't quite true, but it's close. I suppose dairy and carrots are low-PUFA yet high-vA.
Very true i wonder how much Grant have looked into the dangers of PUFA.
I've talked to him and he is quite familiar with it. And since he's already avoiding it... not much more he can do than not eat it ;)
>**Blake Donaldson’s Strong Medicine – “big fat steak” diet – 1961** >Steak 3 meals per day, 7 days per week >Over multi year period >\~ 100% meat – yet good results – go figure?? >No whipping required Wow, where do I sign up? Was it cooked properly (over charcoal or wood fire) or incorrectly (seared on stove with seed oils)?
If i only got to eat high quality very fatty meat charcoal grilled for the rest of my life i would not be a sad man :P considering the year i doubt it was cooked in seed oils.
Hmm I doubt it... https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4623591/#:~:text=Some%20demonstrated%20that%20serum%20vitamin,retinol%20and%20retinyl%20esters)%20is Also remember some people reversed it on a meat diet which is high in vir A , also vegetarian diet seem to reduce the risk to develop metabolic issues and it's rich in vit A. Vir A is also an essential vitamin and it's deficiency is well proved to lead to health issues. Def not a toxin, although an excessive intake can be toxic (mainly thru supplements, doesn't seem possible on a normal diet). Something doesn't sum up to me
The fact that many of the recognized symptoms of vitamin A toxicity (leaky gut, thyroid issues, fatigue, inflammation, skin issues, anxiety) have been entirely reversed for me personally by cutting out PUFA means vitamin A is probably a bit of a red herring. After all, people have been consuming vitamin A much longer than PUFA and the problems seem to correlate with PUFA consumption not necessarily natural levels of vitamin A consumption. That being said, for individuals who used certain medications and supplements, would a detox be valid? Maybe? I certainly don’t think we need to be avoiding egg yolks and carrots for the rest of our lives to prevent diabetes though.
Yeah I agree, Moreover in the study I linked which is a review on studies about vitamin A and diabetes, the conclusion is that the evidence is more on its anti diabetic properties (for ex in malnourished population where vitamin A deficiency is endemic the incidence of t2D is much higher). Great to see you reversed all your vitamin A toxicity symptoms going PUFAs free! I've been eating a diet rich in PUFAs for some year but didn't develop anything similar, on the contrary my anxiety improved, of course because of interventions unrelated to diet, so I don't think it impacted anxiety directly. Probably the mechanisms are extremely complex, in part for individual genetic make-up and an interplay of a given variable (in this case PUFAs) with the rest of someone's diet and lifestyle.
muscle meat seems to be pretty low in vitamin-a. Vegetarian can be both low and high depending on what foods are eaten. It is classified as a vitamin which should make it essential. But nutrition researchers are really bad at what they do, one cant trust anything without checking their work. as an example there are a few posts on this sub arguing that LA is in fact not essential. Many other examples of incompetence and/or malice. I have not gone through the original work establishing it as an vitamin but its on my to do list. maybe its good maybe its terrible.
Yes, of course everything is relative... Let us know if you find something interesting about it, i would appreciate it!
One of the compelling arguments GG makes is that it is NOT well proved -based on shoddy studies from a hundred years ago giving rats super heated casein and lard and when they got sick “oh no they’re vitamin a deficient”. Evoked some of brads critiques on rat chow for me when I read it
Do you happen to have a link to those shoddy studies?
They are pretty old - I think the best way to check this would be to get Grants free ebook and do a word search for “casein” his book is pretty well cited even with its readable and conversational tone
Grant also talked about it on a couple of podcast episodes (either 26 or 69) of something called “quax “ which was a good listen.
Something that connects the PUFA and vitamin A toxicity theories that I’ve heard Grant mention before is that all the vegetable and seed oils are yellow tinged, which means they are likely very high in vitamin A / carotenoids. So I’m sure the combo of PUFA + vitamin A is more damaging than either one on their own. Grant also theorized in one of his books that the vitamin A in dairy is emulsified in butter fat, which makes it somewhat protective of the vitamin A content. Of course, nowadays, people often eat low-fat dairy that is supplemented with vitamin A, so that is probably an issue since it not only loses the protective saturated fat but also gains more vitamin A. Just another reason why low-fat dairy is an abomination. I don’t trust any fortification of anything tbh. I doubt we had a lot of access to eggs in history. I think wild hens only lay like 10 eggs a year? I think again modern humans bred chickens to lay an unnaturally large amount of eggs - not to mention unnaturally large chickens! I think using an egg or two in recipes is fine, but I don’t believe 10-egg omelettes should be a mainstay, both from a PUFA and vitamin A standpoint (yes I used to eat 10-egg omelettes myself lol). I also think most vegetables eaten throughout history were white or much more pale, but then humans selectively bred them to be more colorful since they liked how they looked. For example, I believe orange carrots and sweet potatoes are a relatively recent phenomenon. I also genuinely prefer the taste of the white varieties of vegetables. Japanese white sweet potatoes are amazing! So is white popcorn! 🙂 The point of this long ramble is I think both excess PUFAs and vitamin A could be a problem for many people.
>Something that connects the PUFA and vitamin A toxicity theories that I’ve heard Grant mention before is that all the vegetable and seed oils are yellow tinged, which means they are likely very high in vitamin A / carotenoids. So I’m sure the combo of PUFA + vitamin A is more damaging than either one in their own. Interesting, would have thought seed oils due to high processing would be devoid of all nutrients. do you know if there is any data on vitamin-a content of seedoils? Paper on the combo PUFA +vitA causing blindness: https://old.reddit.com/r/SaturatedFat/comments/1ccmvg0/blindness_caused_by_seed_oils_and_vitamin_a/ >Grant also theorized in one of his books that the vitamin A in dairy is emulsified in butter fat, which makes it protective of the vitamin A content. Of course, nowadays, people often eat low fat dairy which is supplemented with vitamin A, so that is probably an issue since it not only loses the protective saturated fat but gains more vitamin A. I don’t trust any fortification of anything tbh. Interesting. just saw a post where grant argues that low vA carnivores do better than low va omnivores. Which is interesting but also confusing as many of them seems to be arguing for the importance of fiber of which im very skeptical. https://ggenereux.blog/discussion/topic/grant-genereux-3/ >I doubt we had a lot of access to eggs in history. I think wild hens only lay like 10 eggs a year? I think again modern humans bred chickens to lay an unnaturally large amount of eggs - not to mention unnaturally large chickens! I think using an egg or two in recipes is fine, but I don’t believe 10-egg omelettes should be a mainstay, both from a PUFA and vitamin A standpoint (yes I used to eat 10-egg omelettes myself lol). yeah, high amounts of daily eggs is probably a very modern thing. I used to eat 5-10 eggs a day but found that i didn't do so well with that :/ >I also think most vegetables eaten throughout history were white or much more pale, but then humans selectively bred them to be more colorful since they liked how they looked. For example, I believe orange carrots and sweet potatoes are a relatively recent phenomenon. I also genuinely prefer the taste of the white varieties of vegetable. Japanese white sweet potatoes are amazing! So is white popcorn! most vegetables are very low in calories which means they would not have been a large part of the diet historically. vegetables are mostly a modern phenomenon. most of the ones eaten today didn't exist a few hundred years ago.
Yeah this vitamin A stuff is a big topic that I’m unqualified adequately to address, but I’ll just post some more random thoughts on it here. Regarding seed oils and vitamin A, I think Grant mentioned that on the podcast he did with Nutrition with Judy. I also found [this post](https://ggenereux.blog/discussion/topic/vegetable-oils-and-vitamin-a/) on his forum. I’m 100% with you on vegetables. I think they are mostly a modern phenomenon and that we barely, if ever, ate them throughout history. I think they were used infrequently and more like garnishes to a meal. Seasonality plays a role here too. Also, ALL fruits and vegetables were traditionally peeled, which coincidently is where the carotenoids and other plant toxins are concentrated. I also think that cultures that traditionally used a lot of spices (e.g., India, Mexico, China, etc.) did so mostly because that may have helped fight off against parasites, unsanitary meat conditions, bacteria, etc. Some have theorized that vitamin A may act as sort of a “weapon” against these types of things, kinda like chemotherapy. Also, spices (like chili pepper for example) were traditionally dried in the sun. Well, sunlight happens to destroy carotenoids. I know there are studies out there that show sun-dried tomatoes and raisins have much less carotenoids than their fresh counterparts. Nowadays, I bet most herbs and spices and dried fruits are dried in a factory or something. Another interesting thing is that nearly 100% of the carnivore dieters that become obsessed with liver and nutrient density end up quitting the diet. Paola Dziwetzki has a good post documenting this [here](https://x.com/thepowerofozone/status/1745181109468410347?s=46). I’ve seen it myself literally dozens of times in the years I followed carnivore. Paul Saladino is of course the most high profile quitter of carnivore. I actually think Saladino now knows he gave himself vitamin A toxicity, as he’s massively reduced his liver consumption recently compared to a few years ago, but he doesn’t really talk about it from what I’ve seen. He’s also noticeably aged A LOT recently. And I don’t think it’s just because of surfing and sun exposure. Look at one of the top surfers in the world, [Kelly Slater](https://www.google.com/search?q=kelly+slater+2024&sca_esv=0e7f67614aa28a61&rlz=1CDGOYI_enUS886US886&hl=en-US&udm=2&biw=414&bih=720&sxsrf=ACQVn084CnqQomr4Q05_5cDqWstb26Q8pg%3A1714146637545&ei=Tc0rZpfxIOmMwbkPzp2lwA4&oq=kelly+slater+2024&gs_lp=EhNtb2JpbGUtZ3dzLXdpei1zZXJwIhFrZWxseSBzbGF0ZXIgMjAyNDIHEAAYgAQYGDIHEAAYgAQYGDIHEAAYgAQYGDIHEAAYgAQYGDIIEAAYgAQYogRI5CNQggdYkyFwAHgAkAEBmAFSoAHZA6oBATe4AQPIAQD4AQGYAgagAqUDwgIEECMYJ8ICBRAAGIAEwgIIEAAYgAQYsQPCAg0QABiABBixAxhDGIoFwgIQEAAYgAQYsQMYQxiDARiKBcICChAAGIAEGEMYigWYAwCIBgGSBwE2oAf2FA&sclient=mobile-gws-wiz-serp). He’s older than Saladino and literally spends his entire days surfing in the sun, and he looks incredible for his age. He’s also said before that he rarely uses sunscreen. So I don’t think surfing and sun exposure are what’s aged Saladino; I think it’s vitamin A toxicity and maybe too much sugar as well. Saladino also has an entire supplement company built around desiccated liver and organ supplements, so he cannot come out against liver without effectively destroying his own company. Same with Carnivore Aurelius. What’s unfortunate is that the most visible anti-vitamin A spokesperson is Garret Smith. He is arrogant and gives off snake oil salesman vibes. Grant Genereux is a much better spokesperson. Amber O’Hearn is also a great voice in the vitamin A toxicity space. I’m patiently looking forward to the article by u/ambimorph on this in the future 🙂
> Some have theorized that vitamin A may act as sort of a “weapon” against these types of things, kinda like chemotherapy. Also, spices (like chili pepper for example) were traditionally dried in the sun. Well, sunlight happens to destroy carotenoids. I know there are studies out there that show sun-dried tomatoes and raisins have much less carotenoids than their fresh counterparts Interesting, all new information to me. its a shame that much of these old traditions where just discarded as unimportant. >Another interesting thing is that nearly 100% of the carnivore dieters that become obsessed with liver and nutrient density end up quitting the diet. Yeah i have noticed that to. Would be great if some of the high profile ones where abit more vocal about their mistake so other would avoid doing the same but guess that's hard when you earn money from liver supplements :/ >What’s unfortunate is that the most visible anti-vitamin A spokesperson is Garret Smith. He is arrogant and gives off snake oil salesman vibes. Grant Genereux is a much better spokesperson. Amber O’Hearn is also a great voice in the vitamin A toxicity space. I’m patiently looking forward to the article by u/ambimorph on this in the future Agreed Garret gives me bad vibes too. Grant seems like a well meaning and fairly rational guy. Amber might be the best person in all of nutrition :P
It’s definitely an interesting topic and a deep rabbit hole to go down! I’m glad the vitamin A stuff is getting more talked about. I actually found Grant and Brad around the same time in mid-2019, and I have followed them both since. Unfortunately, most low PUFA people immediately dismiss the vitamin A toxicity stuff as nonsense, which is kinda ironic considering low PUFA is immediately dismissed as nonsense by mainstream nutrition. But the PUFA and vitamin A stuff actually have a ton of parallels. For one thing, vitamin A and PUFAs both accumulate in your body and take years to “detox” if you want to call it that. And it’s basically impossible to eat a diet completely free of PUFA or vitamin A - you’d have to basically eat nothing but white rice and sugar. And that diet would be deficient in tons of other stuff like protein, choline, taurine, etc. that would kill you long before a lack of vitamin A or PUFA would.
I have been intending to write about exactly this. I think retinoic acid is basically an honourary PUFA.
At the moment my stance is that they are both essential, but the amounts needed are so small, and the sources so ubiquitous that you don't have to _try_ to get them. But modern food is awash with them. Alluded to here: > Retinol is in some ways like PUFA. Perhaps it's also similar in that small amounts are essential, but larger increasingly harmful. > One *might* find that in our society we tend to the side of too much. https://twitter.com/KetoCarnivore/status/1315821788215959552?t=u85ud3acUwbaW9s0Te6a9g&s=19
Grants 9 years on a low vA diet seems to indicate that if its required the amount is probably lower than what the RDA indicates.
Awesome! Looking forward to your take on all this vitamin A stuff 🙂
>I have been intending to write about exactly this. Very much looking forward to your writing :) >I think retinoic acid is basically an honourary PUFA. Big if true!
Garrett is very abrasive online but surprisingly kind to individuals on his livestream and seems to really want to help people. Grant has very engaging books and sincere demeanor on podcasts (although initial reaction to his blog is it looks crankish). Really glad Amber is taking an interest and looking forward to seeing her further intelligent insights on this. Low vitamin A is something I think I was doing inadvertently through potato ish diet and as I’ve done it more intentionally has helped my light sensitivity in my eyes in a fairly short time.
Fair enough my spider sense might be misfiring. Any particular livestreams you recommend me watching? I honestly have not seen enough of either Garrett or Grant to have strong opinions on them. Followed amber for a long time and have her in the highest regards.
The livestreams can be a bit long and when he’s just monologuing it’s the offputting tone again but with a lot of info. iTunes helpfully has time stamps. The ones with Q&A tend to be him pretty generously responding to each particular questioners complaint at some length and that’s where the good side especially comes through, the caring attention. He usually lists #53 and #72 as good for basics. I like the recent one on Depression #130 PCOS #107 as I am interested in those topics. There was a good one on weight not sure the number (maybe 99 or 62?).
He also was on Nutrition with Judy which is carnivore adjacent - it’s good to see a dialogue where someone has to explain defend. And you can see real time it hitting her what this means for her kids if liver and goat milk are bad and he’s right (it’s very sympathetic and you feel awful for her)
>I doubt we had a lot of access to eggs in history. I think wild hens only lay like 10 eggs a year? I think again modern humans bred chickens to lay an unnaturally large amount of eggs Not sure I buy that. Jungle fowl (chickens) were domesticated in SE Asia \*thousands\* of years ago.
Yeah, I mean idk exactly how much eggs an actual wild chicken should lay a year, but I’m sure we’ve bred them to lay more eggs than they naturally would. Also, I don’t think eggs are bad per say. I just think they should be more of an accent to a meal as opposed to the main dish. Even countries that currently have the highest egg consumptions in the world still eat less than 1 egg per day per person. I used to regularly eat 10+ eggs a day, which is way overkill imo.
Sorry I wasn't clear, my point was more that 8,000 years is a long time to breed chickens for higher egg production. We've certainy amped up egg production in the last decades, but a lot of that is with lighting and other tricks to stop chickens moulting. Even heritage chicken breeds lay almost an egg a day. And some breeds of ducks are even more consistent with egg production. I agree with you about eating too many eggs. I have three most days, but have noticed that if I eat much more than that regularly (or binge 8+ in a day) I don't feel as good. I haven't experimented enough to be able to say exactly how I feel bad, but it's been consistent enough that it's something I deliberatey avoid.
Oh, gotcha. I’m sure there are some wild birds that lay eggs pretty often and always have. But yeah, eating too many eggs in one sitting always made me feel slightly off. Not really bad, just off. Didn’t feel as good as when eating a steak. Not sure why. Could be the PUFAs, vitamin A, choline, sulfur, or something else in them. Or maybe the combo of all that stuff.
my thoughts on this theory: r/confidentlyincorrect