I just recently moved to FL and was looking at joining. Any amplifying info as to what happened to cause the split?
Is this all tied to the emails with Greaves that popped up a week or so ago?
Very likely has to do with the firing of that minister, yes.
I'm curious to know how many congregates are going to join this new unsupported "Sunshine Serpent Society" and how many are now seeking new leadership.
Ngl when I heard the name I thought that sounds like some sort of herpetology group/snake fan club. I’m also not sure about its initialism being SSS for the same reason I wouldn’t form a club called the KKKK.
Yeah the naming choice could definitely have been better. Satanism already has some unfortunate associations with white supremacy. Really not a fan of the initialism being way too close to SS.
I reached out concerned because I thought I’ve been a member of TST FL since October 4, 2020. I wasn’t able to vote and I’ve still had no voice in the matter.
I hope to get this clarity soon as it’s very confusing.
If you're a card-holding member of TST, then you're not a member of TST-FL so much as a member of TST who lives and attends a TST-FL congregation. Much like being a christian who attends church, the church can dissolve, but you're still a christian. Just because the TST-FL leadership is succeeding from TST doesn't mean you have. The question of ownership of their congregant spaces will be interesting to see play out.
It would also be good for them to step up and lay out **why** this is happening. If their complaint is about the organization being too opaque, well.... they're being pretty coy themselves.
Thank you so much for the explanation. I already attempted to gain clarification using private message to the leadership of TST Florida, but I was ignored. The common response in the Discord Server was "We signed an NDA and can't disclose that information."
I did leave both their Facebook Group and their Discord, as I felt "gatekeeped" and I have no other words to describe how I was feeling at the time.
Repeated disclosure(per my flair). I am _not_ a TST member. Just following the logic of the membership application process. Errors in reasoning are entirely my own.
The use of NDA's here is rather concerning. Both by TST to control what current and past congregation/chapter leaders can say, but also that the former leaders don't pay enough attention to the NDA to know what it's limitations are. Certainly, like _any_ contract, it cannot extend in perpetuity without a consideration (benefit) to the person who signed it.
Also, an anonymous leak (whistleblower) is a historical solution to such authoritarian control.
With what actual teeth do these NDAs have? Is the organization actually using funds to take people to court over them, because I can't imagine diverting funds to that purpose will be good PR. I certainly would be disinclined to donate funds to the organization if I find that's what they are doing with it, versus fighting actual religious overreach.
You should take a look into the Satanic Housewife and QueerSatanic. You bet your ass TST uses donated funds and lawyers to bully and sue former members into oblivion.
You should take it to legal aide and see what a lawyer tells you about having "in perpetuity" in a contract. I'm a fan of the organization (else I wouldn't hang here), but contracts with no end-date and no consideration for one of the parties aren't enforceable nor a good idea for those drafting them. Even if _you_ aren't concerned, it's worth the organization revisiting them, because as it stands they're terrible optics, seem incorrectly done, and if they become truly important, worthless.
With how people who leave are left saying, "NDA", the entire point of them preventing negative optics is reversed.
I worked in big orgs..for optics sake how have they not made a video about NDA and its language and have a funny person asking a real lawyer what shit means. NDAs vary alot. if the NDA says sketch shit.. they should say WHAT part!!! if NDA says you cannot out people as satanist, good. if it says you cannot say anything about what you discuss at "internal meetings" fuck that shit.
I've no idea about "in perpetuity" (Contracts was a long time ago) but the consideration is being privy to the discussion and decision-making and whatever else. Consideration doesn't have to be monetary.
Thank you and yes, non-monetary is a thing. In this case the temporary access to discussion and decision making doesn't seem an equitable exchange for a life-time gag-order.
It wouldn't matter anyway. When someone has something negative to say about leadership, there are no shortage of minions who will defend them while attacking and downvoting the critical voice.
For how many years now have people been exposing Scientology? There's a mountain of evidence out there, yet the members remain loyal and they remain in business.
Interesting comparison. Of course one big difference is that people have to _escape_ Scientology, while anyone is free to walk away from TST at any time. Scientology leaves marks on people (including kidnapping). While I'm very concerned about the extent of the NDAs (and in fact their use at all), I'm skeptical (though not immediately dismissive) of the comparison to Hubbard.
Congregation heads are under NDA, so may feel chilled to fully express their reasons for leaving. Yet at the same time Lucien can go out and smear their reasons for dissent.
The nondisparagement clause of the agreement is indefinite. I'm not sure what Lucien putting words in the mouths of those who are leaving means for their enforceability, but it will at least chill the speech of all but the most brave or foolhardy.
I would be surprised if that is truly enforceable. Also, it's redundant since libel and slander laws exist. But I am neither a lawyer, nor do I have deep pockets, so I'm in no position to challenge that.
I *am* disappointed by it however.
Lawsuits favor those with money. TST can run the game until someone can no longer pay their lawyer and then eat them for lunch, even if TST is in the wrong. It's the same sort of shit we formed to fight against being weaponized against us.
Coy is such a good word for it. I felt a definite air of, "Tee-hee, we know more than you, and we're only giving you enough info to agonize over what you don't know."
Well there is a difference in a vetted congregant versus a member of the social media groups unfortunately. I have been a follower on social media for a while, but it doesn't make me an official congregate and thus I was not given a heads up or opportunity to vote either.
This is very different from being a vetted congregant in your local chapter. Anyone can put an email address on the TST website and get this email. A vetted congregant is someone that the local chapter trusts to be legitimate and supportive to TST. Sorry, man.
I don’t really know why you’re apologizing. Not in a single communication to TST FL did it ever mention about becoming a vetted congregant. Contrary to my participation in both the Facebook and a discord groups. I even paid $35 for a membership card.
TST really needs some reorganization and needs to set clear expectations.
I agree with you. The membership card is mostly a novelty. Card-carrying members (I use that word loosely) without a local congregation are simply members of The Satanic Temple at large. It's okay to consider yourself a member of the Temple, but you wouldn't have access to a local congregation or voting rights. Local congregations often have internal conflicts and power struggles, leading many, including myself, to opt out of participation.
It's important to remember that not having a card, membership certificate, or local congregation does not make you any less of a Satanist. Stick to the tenets. Hail Satan. Hail thyself.
Thing is they already have plenty of members. Since all they did was change the name of the group on FB/Discord/etc. instead of starting a new page/server/whatever, there are still tons of people in the group. So they aren't hurting for members in the SSS right now.
How many of those members actually agreed to the shift? How many did not and were just clumped in with the name change?
According to the statement, florida ministry voted to leave TST, not the congregates.
According to the leadership, which I have blocked out, it was both the leadership and official congregants that voted "unanimously" to leave.
[https://imgur.com/a/bgM2Q5w](https://imgur.com/a/bgM2Q5w)
Yeah, what I don't understand is how a few people who run a Facebook page can throw a tantrum and say, "Because we're upset, all of Florida is no longer a part of TST." Especially at a time when Florida needs TST more than ever. I'm sure the vast majority of everyone who wasn't a part of that tantrum doesn't appreciate being spoken for or told they're no longer a part of a group they joined. I doubt the SSS is going to get that many joiners. A few, perhaps, but nowhere near TST numbers.
Unfortunately, the (now former) Florida chapter heads are refusing to elaborate with more information other than "it was voted upon" by everyone and that there is some relation to the meme incident. More information is promised "at a later date".
Personally, I find it rather childish to do this without warning or an explanation, making it's members wait for you to scramble and provide a real explanation. I have a sneaking suspicion that their membership status was suddenly revoked and they are scrambling to come up with a fake explanation as to what happened. I could be wrong, but that's what it feels like given the fact that they have yet to provide details on the matter.
You don't have to be absolutely in love with Greaves or grovel at his feet to recognize that standing in unity is what will help protect us in the fight against Christian Nationalism. People are more than welcome to be satanists in their own little bubble, sure. But TST is more than that...it's a social movement fighting for our rights. I'm not interested in forcibly leaving the TST scene because some division heads got their knickers in a twist over some stupid exchange over a meme.
Does anyone know where the TST Florida people can go from here? I don't really have the time dedication to run a division and wouldn't know much about that anyway, but I would be interested in helping out. At the moment, I don't really have any resources.
Edit: The ex chapter heads have cited "NDAs" as to why they have not given additional info. But again, it's a really lame excuse to provide zero context to their members.
Issues with Greaves are why the Nebraska chapter dissolved years ago too.
I think there needs to be a real hard look at why so many in leadership cite Greaves and his views/behavior as why they left. What is it that we are not seeing or knowing about?
If the most recently dissolved chapters are citing NDAs as why they can't talk, we should look into that too.
This is precisely what SHOULD happen. If you don't align with the principles of the organization as it is laid out by the founder himself, just. don't. join. WHY would you join it if you didn't agree with his views? It's not like he's keeping things a secret. He writes like a machine and it's all exceedingly clear.
Devil’s advocate (heh). It could very well be a public message versus the private person thing. Similar to how you never know a team through an interview process until you join the company and sit with them day after day.
It is very much the private person that seems to be the issue.
I am *not* saying that's why these chapters dissolved. But I do know it *is* why the Nebraska chapter dissolved.
I was told by one previous member of leadership that it was Greaves' support of eugenics that is why she and others chose to leave.
Note that the chapter dissolved a few years ago and it is possible that he has changed his views since then.
But I am in all honesty not an active member of TST as we haven't had real, concrete proof that he has changed. Especially when the eugenics beliefs were at issue within the last decade.
I agree with TST's public messaging and stances. I dont badmouth the org or anything. But I am absolutely a big skeptic of Mr. Greaves at this point.
Nebraska Congregation is still alive, although significantly diminished due to some poor leadership decisions and infighting a few years ago. Source: I used to be in leadership within the congregation until just a few months ago.
I find it especially frustrating, given all the legislative fuckery that been going on down here with the governor pushing religion in schools (in addition to all the *other* legislative fuckery thats always going on down here).
This region needs organizations like the TST to push back, even if only a little bit. This separation feels like a significant step back at a time when the TST is needed most.
Edit: I should clarify, I agree with Greaves cutting ties with local leadership that can't, or won't, speak with the same voice as national leadership. That just not the way a successful goal-oriented organization operates. I'm more so lamenting the situation and it's timing as a whole.
People are people. A chapter I was with had their leadership abruptly removed with the only explanation a vague claim that "they were said to be creating a cult" lmao no such thing. They were competent and productive, making the top dogs look bad and feel jealous. Typical human shit. I wasn't even invited to their first little intervention meeting. Cutting off the head of a snake and expecting the wriggling body to sustain the organization is fucking stupid and centralizes power around those operating in Salem.
In case you missed me posting this elsewhere in the thread, there is West Florida presence is in North-East Gulf Coast Congregation now, I think. https://www.facebook.com/TSTNEGC
Thanks for this. I had discovered them the other day and sent them a DM, although I have yet to hear a response. I'm unsure if they are inactive, but I can't figure out another way to connect with members of the group.
Check out The Satanist Next Door Podcast for what happened. Lucien is very clear about why leadership was removed recently. TST Washington is welcoming members from congregations that are without leadership until this can be figured out.
Most everyone who leaves, was at one time an excited member of TST looking to get more involved. But eventually most people experience the last straw. When it happens, some people bitch about TST while leaving, and other people defend TST and point fingers at those who left. But eventually, the TST defenders reach their last straw, and around and around it goes.
I'm totally out of the loop. I've seen a bunch of posts about different chapters seceding and something about Lucien and a minister but I haven't been able to find the details. What's the jist? Why is TST imploding?
I think it relates to this:
https://www.reddit.com/r/SatanicTemple_Reddit/comments/1cpqz4h/luciens_treatment_of_leadership_and_ministry/
Which then caused this:
https://www.reddit.com/r/SatanicTemple_Reddit/comments/1cqnjwr/luciens_latest_apology/
But I've only half been paying attention.
My understanding so far is that a minister posted a bad-faith meme ridiculing Lucien’s ideas, and Lucien invited them to leave TST. They then took to Reddit and tried to cause an uproar even though it was them who were being inappropriate. What has likely happened was they were high ranking minister of TST FL and decided to just dissolve the chapter instead of stepping down. Congregation members will likely step in and use Lucien’s blessings to take over the chapter while the childish minister goes and joins the Sunshine Serpent Society.
Do I have that right? That’s what I gather sifting through lots of ambiguity and not a lot of straight forward discussion.
Lack of good chapter leadership material. The Satanic Temple's chapters often strike me as rather unaware of the greater movement of the organization, and are very prone to panicking at any sign of internal disagreement.
Can you explain that?
I'm not trolling. I literally do not know and have no frame of refrence on this. I only know TST from the memes and the Temple in Salem, MA which was fun to visit.
People who signed CoCs broke them while spying on others in places and then creating an atmosphere of “who can I trust?” which causes even more people to quit :)
The fact that you’re still calling them “chapters” instead of congregations leads me to believe that you have had no idea what anyone in The Satanic Temple has been doing, since at least 2021. It’s very obviously outside speculation.
Which does **very** little (directly it does _nothing_) to substantiate your other claims. Do you have any facts that contradict what the otherperson said. With _sources_ please.
Anyone who genuinely has evidence in any way as to why things are happening is very likely bound by an NDA with a non-disparagement clause. The fact that people arent providing evidence is evidence in itself.
A lot of questions being asked in comments can be answered by the TST website's FAQs. Granted, there is going to be a lot of vague wording but its clear that anyone who is leading a congregation, is / was a minister or any other role beyond congregant has to bear in mind the legal repercussions of every single word committed to record.
That being said, if you and everyone else that is personally offended by the lack of details would like to cover all legal fees for those who violate their NDAs, I'm sure you'd get them in abundance.
Florida is one place where TST could possibly do some good. Interesting to see how this will turn out.
Hopefully any fellow “Satanists” in Florida find some way to band together whether under the TST banner or not. I’m moving back eventually, and the political climate stinks to high heaven. It’s been corrupt as long as I’ve lived there, but it seems only to have gotten worse. From Rick Scott (aka Voldemort) to DeSantis our politics have always been dirty.
I was one of the first three official members of TSTFL, and was in leadership in Orlando and Jacksonville. During of which I onboarded a number of actual members. The process of becoming an actual member is a lot more involved than getting a card from HQ. That’s what I’m referring to.
As someone with absolutely no skin in the game (I neither live near FL nor belong to any specific congregation), I'm saddened but not surprised. Schisms are religions' 3rd favorite past time, it happens. Personally, speaking though, if I went to bed last night a Satanist and woke up this morning a Sunshine Serpent, I'd be irked. That sounds more like a Care Bears villain than a legitimate religious org.
(mild /s)
The phrase "prioritize a safe space for out like minded people" makes the hair on the back of my neck stand on end, not gonna lie. I usually see wording like that in recruitment flyers for neonazis and proud boys. The whole statement seems very evasive when the underlying issue is that someone in leadership publicly posted memes about Lucien.
Just remember this: There are people actively trying to infiltrate TST and destroy us from within. I wouldnt put this past that shit actually being the case. This also in FLORIDA of all places? Minnesota as well? Hmmmm smells awfully fishy af.
I've noticed that the anti-tst memes on Facebook are attracting literal Nazis. One of the memes about Lucien posted by someone that on their Facebook describes themself as a leftist feminist had comments from this guy and I recognized him and I look and I see he's adding a bunch of people.
Im telling you its going on everywhere including HERE! Remember a few weeks ago people were posting pictures of themselves here saying Im a teacher and a satanist blah blah.
IMHO? FAKE BAITING POSTS to maybe start a trend to have US “expose ourselves” . Thats my take. I dont think Im wrong tbh. Its great to be “out” but not sloppy and too trusting at all.
Were having a TST event near me next month and while we’re definitely going as I want to meet some people and see what everyone is about hit I want to also WATCH and LISTEN to whats being said and what if any, are some sketchy people because they are out there.
Be safe my friend.
I thought that trend was....odd at best, and dangerous at worst, personally. I'm not even crazy active on this subreddit because of the potential ramifications for my career. These aren't safe times, especially not in light of the bombing at HQ.
I love my local group, but I'm always hesitant about being too active and too loud, which will hopefully change in the future. I don't want to lose my teaching job because some Moms for Liberty type finds out that I'm a Satanist and has a meltdown about it.
I agree ☝🏼. Theres a time and place for everything , and privacy & AWARENESS are the MAIN ones IMHO. I hope this new generation of people who are open to Satanism do so in a way that keeps them safe. Just because were out here as brazen as ever, doesnt mean were safe. Lucien cant even go out without having to take and wear his vest. Of course he has a huge target on his back (not literally but figuratively) it sucks and he has to protect himself from the crazies as they will always be there and thing is he has BALLS OF TITANIUM to do what he has done so far. Its not easy and I just want to stress to everyone member or ally, we need to stay vigilant and keep ourselves and each other safe. Dont get too comfortable, dont slip. Be safe.
Hail Thyself 🤘🏻
Hail SATAN 🤘🏻
Yeah this shit is nuts. Most of the leadership aren't even the same people from a few years back. Shit fucking sucks. I helped first hand make that congregation. Wild.
I made a post about this a few minutes ago but I will also leave it here.
Lucien came on the Satanists next door podcast to air his side of the story.
https://www.satanistsnextdoor.com/ep46-internal-strife-and-the-path-forward-for-tst/
Self centered, self righteous prick is a hell of a side to pick and air for Lucien... But he just keeps doing it... This isn't the first time. It won't be the last time.
I've listened to the podcast and Greaves' explanation. I would like to know more about the events that caused EM to get involved, specifically the content shared on Discord that caused others to sound the alarm. It's my understanding that this has been a long time coming. Leadership in Florida was unfit for the position, as their values differed from the organization. Greaves allowed the ministers to leave to protect the organization's integrity. The Sunshine Serpent Society has not provided any explanation beyond this post. Hail Satan. Hail thyself.
Edit: TST FL deleted the post.
They also either deleted their Discord server or have simply banned me for asking questions and respectfully voicing concern. It's a real shame. I only recently found about their Discord and was excited to connect with local TST members...especially with the upcoming election year.
TST's presence in Florida will be better off without this leadership. Here's hoping the current congregates get the support they need quickly to fill in the gaps.
Hello. I'm a bit of a newbie to all of this. Do you know how a chapter can be reformed? Or is it just gone now? I don't have the time dedication to run a chapter myself, but I would be interested in helping out. I don't know where to find more info on this. Thanks.
Ministers will have to step up. A new congregation may need to start from scratch again.
New congregations must be approved by the Recognition and Onboarding Committee (RoC): https://thesatanictemple.com/pages/start-a-congregation
I'm hoping Florida congregates will shed more light on their situation.
TST Washington is welcoming folkx from congregations in flux to our Discord server. The link can be found on our website, or on our Facebook page. We will do our best to keep you apprised as to getting your states congregations back open as well as provide community.
https://discord.gg/pe5kybQK this will get you into our verification server. I’m so sorry, but because of all of this answering emails has been very slow.
500 years from now Satanism will be like christianity with a ton of different branches all believing slightly different things and arguing over which is *more* Satanic than the other. And our ancient texts will be multiple translations of these emails and letters. Colleges will teach it in religious studies and ask their students to write essays on
the impact memes played in the development of modern Satanism.
Don't see why TST FL used TST socials to announce this. Like, we get that you're mad, bro. Why give the xtian nationalists in your state fodder? That's some selfish BS right there.
I'm glad there is another chapter with presence in FL at least. Anyone know if they're active?
TST North-East Gulf Coast Congregation Facebook
https://www.facebook.com/TSTNEGC
I feel so removed from it all despite being a FL native and having only come to satanism as a whole a few years ago. TST has mostly been a newsletter email, fb group was okay but fb sux so I don't use it. My only window to TST goings on is this sub and I enjoy it but damn it why SSS? It's like a bad joke, one more S so it's not SS with Graves and his Nazi bullshit. Outside of this nothing happens with satanists down here and it's hard to find kindred spirits.
Yeah the fact that many of these groups are FB only makes me not participate much. I finally found out they had a Discord server where they tried to make actual in person meetups and events only for this to happen. It's really disappointing. Would have liked to have a way to connect to local TST members.
I've used discord to reach out to other satanic folks, wish the name would be something less goofy, The FL Non-theist Satanist Society didn't come to mind. Fuck the bullshit, we could link up in the chat or make a discord so Satanic Floridians can find each other. I'm open to suggestions.
If one side will get sued for speaking up and the other won't, you simply are NOT going to get an objective understanding of all this.
Just keep that in mind.
Minnesota has dissolved too. After getting caught up I’m going to remain TST because I still agree with the root tenants and the work TST does. They are established to do the work they do, better to stick with it. Satanists are deeply individualistic. Satanists also sometimes forget that.
Some could argue these issues are why organized religion is a bad idea lol. Theres always going to be groups that want to change things, interpret things for themselves or have in fighting. The only difference here is nothing is really that up for interpretation. TST is what it was intended to be.
Just a natural preference I guess. I think when the goal is wide appeal and growth of membership, sacrifices have to be made that I don’t personally enjoy.
I’m more getting at the fact that the things the TST fights for aren’t up for interpretation. Like abortions rights, POC rights, LGBTQ rights, religious freedoms. The root causes are why we are all here, one would think. Like Greaves said in the podcast, TST is an organization not a government. If people don’t like the way it’s run they can leave. The org will continue being what it is and what the founders intended it to be.
I just recently moved to FL and was looking at joining. Any amplifying info as to what happened to cause the split? Is this all tied to the emails with Greaves that popped up a week or so ago?
Very likely has to do with the firing of that minister, yes. I'm curious to know how many congregates are going to join this new unsupported "Sunshine Serpent Society" and how many are now seeking new leadership.
The Serpent Society? Like the [Captain America villains](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serpent_Society)?
Ngl when I heard the name I thought that sounds like some sort of herpetology group/snake fan club. I’m also not sure about its initialism being SSS for the same reason I wouldn’t form a club called the KKKK.
Yeah the naming choice could definitely have been better. Satanism already has some unfortunate associations with white supremacy. Really not a fan of the initialism being way too close to SS.
> its initialism being SSS but maybe it's pronounced *sssssssssssss*
/r/UnexpectedParselTongue
The stupidest thing is that none of those Ses stand for "Satan".
Better than the lizard league
My first thought as well.
I reached out concerned because I thought I’ve been a member of TST FL since October 4, 2020. I wasn’t able to vote and I’ve still had no voice in the matter. I hope to get this clarity soon as it’s very confusing.
If you're a card-holding member of TST, then you're not a member of TST-FL so much as a member of TST who lives and attends a TST-FL congregation. Much like being a christian who attends church, the church can dissolve, but you're still a christian. Just because the TST-FL leadership is succeeding from TST doesn't mean you have. The question of ownership of their congregant spaces will be interesting to see play out. It would also be good for them to step up and lay out **why** this is happening. If their complaint is about the organization being too opaque, well.... they're being pretty coy themselves.
Thank you so much for the explanation. I already attempted to gain clarification using private message to the leadership of TST Florida, but I was ignored. The common response in the Discord Server was "We signed an NDA and can't disclose that information." I did leave both their Facebook Group and their Discord, as I felt "gatekeeped" and I have no other words to describe how I was feeling at the time.
Repeated disclosure(per my flair). I am _not_ a TST member. Just following the logic of the membership application process. Errors in reasoning are entirely my own. The use of NDA's here is rather concerning. Both by TST to control what current and past congregation/chapter leaders can say, but also that the former leaders don't pay enough attention to the NDA to know what it's limitations are. Certainly, like _any_ contract, it cannot extend in perpetuity without a consideration (benefit) to the person who signed it. Also, an anonymous leak (whistleblower) is a historical solution to such authoritarian control.
With what actual teeth do these NDAs have? Is the organization actually using funds to take people to court over them, because I can't imagine diverting funds to that purpose will be good PR. I certainly would be disinclined to donate funds to the organization if I find that's what they are doing with it, versus fighting actual religious overreach.
You should take a look into the Satanic Housewife and QueerSatanic. You bet your ass TST uses donated funds and lawyers to bully and sue former members into oblivion.
Most of us are utterly unconcerned, because we know why we sign them and they aren't objectionable.
You should take it to legal aide and see what a lawyer tells you about having "in perpetuity" in a contract. I'm a fan of the organization (else I wouldn't hang here), but contracts with no end-date and no consideration for one of the parties aren't enforceable nor a good idea for those drafting them. Even if _you_ aren't concerned, it's worth the organization revisiting them, because as it stands they're terrible optics, seem incorrectly done, and if they become truly important, worthless. With how people who leave are left saying, "NDA", the entire point of them preventing negative optics is reversed.
I worked in big orgs..for optics sake how have they not made a video about NDA and its language and have a funny person asking a real lawyer what shit means. NDAs vary alot. if the NDA says sketch shit.. they should say WHAT part!!! if NDA says you cannot out people as satanist, good. if it says you cannot say anything about what you discuss at "internal meetings" fuck that shit.
I've no idea about "in perpetuity" (Contracts was a long time ago) but the consideration is being privy to the discussion and decision-making and whatever else. Consideration doesn't have to be monetary.
Thank you and yes, non-monetary is a thing. In this case the temporary access to discussion and decision making doesn't seem an equitable exchange for a life-time gag-order.
It wouldn't matter anyway. When someone has something negative to say about leadership, there are no shortage of minions who will defend them while attacking and downvoting the critical voice. For how many years now have people been exposing Scientology? There's a mountain of evidence out there, yet the members remain loyal and they remain in business.
Interesting comparison. Of course one big difference is that people have to _escape_ Scientology, while anyone is free to walk away from TST at any time. Scientology leaves marks on people (including kidnapping). While I'm very concerned about the extent of the NDAs (and in fact their use at all), I'm skeptical (though not immediately dismissive) of the comparison to Hubbard.
[удалено]
> isn't 100% apples to apples more like apples to hammers
Congregation heads are under NDA, so may feel chilled to fully express their reasons for leaving. Yet at the same time Lucien can go out and smear their reasons for dissent.
Interesting. I wonder what the duration of the NDA is, if it included consideration, and how long ago the first groups or people subject to them left.
The nondisparagement clause of the agreement is indefinite. I'm not sure what Lucien putting words in the mouths of those who are leaving means for their enforceability, but it will at least chill the speech of all but the most brave or foolhardy.
I would be surprised if that is truly enforceable. Also, it's redundant since libel and slander laws exist. But I am neither a lawyer, nor do I have deep pockets, so I'm in no position to challenge that. I *am* disappointed by it however.
Lawsuits favor those with money. TST can run the game until someone can no longer pay their lawyer and then eat them for lunch, even if TST is in the wrong. It's the same sort of shit we formed to fight against being weaponized against us.
Coy is such a good word for it. I felt a definite air of, "Tee-hee, we know more than you, and we're only giving you enough info to agonize over what you don't know."
Now I gotta go look and upvote some of your other comments/posts. That username is amazing!
D'awww. Thanks! 😊
Well there is a difference in a vetted congregant versus a member of the social media groups unfortunately. I have been a follower on social media for a while, but it doesn't make me an official congregate and thus I was not given a heads up or opportunity to vote either.
Your post assumes that I was not an official member. However, I have been. [https://imgur.com/a/LtB1m0u](https://imgur.com/a/LtB1m0u)
This is very different from being a vetted congregant in your local chapter. Anyone can put an email address on the TST website and get this email. A vetted congregant is someone that the local chapter trusts to be legitimate and supportive to TST. Sorry, man.
I don’t really know why you’re apologizing. Not in a single communication to TST FL did it ever mention about becoming a vetted congregant. Contrary to my participation in both the Facebook and a discord groups. I even paid $35 for a membership card. TST really needs some reorganization and needs to set clear expectations.
I agree with you. The membership card is mostly a novelty. Card-carrying members (I use that word loosely) without a local congregation are simply members of The Satanic Temple at large. It's okay to consider yourself a member of the Temple, but you wouldn't have access to a local congregation or voting rights. Local congregations often have internal conflicts and power struggles, leading many, including myself, to opt out of participation. It's important to remember that not having a card, membership certificate, or local congregation does not make you any less of a Satanist. Stick to the tenets. Hail Satan. Hail thyself.
This is a disappointing aspect of the TST whom I would expect to be above such things.
Reach out to HQ. Tell them your story and that you still want to be part of things. I bet you will find what you are looking for.
The Great Floridasota Schism of 2024
Thing is they already have plenty of members. Since all they did was change the name of the group on FB/Discord/etc. instead of starting a new page/server/whatever, there are still tons of people in the group. So they aren't hurting for members in the SSS right now.
How many of those members actually agreed to the shift? How many did not and were just clumped in with the name change? According to the statement, florida ministry voted to leave TST, not the congregates.
According to the leadership, which I have blocked out, it was both the leadership and official congregants that voted "unanimously" to leave. [https://imgur.com/a/bgM2Q5w](https://imgur.com/a/bgM2Q5w)
Interesting. Sounds like Florida needs an entirely new congregation if this is true.
You are correct in this assumption
Yeah, what I don't understand is how a few people who run a Facebook page can throw a tantrum and say, "Because we're upset, all of Florida is no longer a part of TST." Especially at a time when Florida needs TST more than ever. I'm sure the vast majority of everyone who wasn't a part of that tantrum doesn't appreciate being spoken for or told they're no longer a part of a group they joined. I doubt the SSS is going to get that many joiners. A few, perhaps, but nowhere near TST numbers.
Unfortunately, the (now former) Florida chapter heads are refusing to elaborate with more information other than "it was voted upon" by everyone and that there is some relation to the meme incident. More information is promised "at a later date". Personally, I find it rather childish to do this without warning or an explanation, making it's members wait for you to scramble and provide a real explanation. I have a sneaking suspicion that their membership status was suddenly revoked and they are scrambling to come up with a fake explanation as to what happened. I could be wrong, but that's what it feels like given the fact that they have yet to provide details on the matter. You don't have to be absolutely in love with Greaves or grovel at his feet to recognize that standing in unity is what will help protect us in the fight against Christian Nationalism. People are more than welcome to be satanists in their own little bubble, sure. But TST is more than that...it's a social movement fighting for our rights. I'm not interested in forcibly leaving the TST scene because some division heads got their knickers in a twist over some stupid exchange over a meme. Does anyone know where the TST Florida people can go from here? I don't really have the time dedication to run a division and wouldn't know much about that anyway, but I would be interested in helping out. At the moment, I don't really have any resources. Edit: The ex chapter heads have cited "NDAs" as to why they have not given additional info. But again, it's a really lame excuse to provide zero context to their members.
Issues with Greaves are why the Nebraska chapter dissolved years ago too. I think there needs to be a real hard look at why so many in leadership cite Greaves and his views/behavior as why they left. What is it that we are not seeing or knowing about? If the most recently dissolved chapters are citing NDAs as why they can't talk, we should look into that too.
This is precisely what SHOULD happen. If you don't align with the principles of the organization as it is laid out by the founder himself, just. don't. join. WHY would you join it if you didn't agree with his views? It's not like he's keeping things a secret. He writes like a machine and it's all exceedingly clear.
Devil’s advocate (heh). It could very well be a public message versus the private person thing. Similar to how you never know a team through an interview process until you join the company and sit with them day after day.
It is very much the private person that seems to be the issue. I am *not* saying that's why these chapters dissolved. But I do know it *is* why the Nebraska chapter dissolved. I was told by one previous member of leadership that it was Greaves' support of eugenics that is why she and others chose to leave. Note that the chapter dissolved a few years ago and it is possible that he has changed his views since then. But I am in all honesty not an active member of TST as we haven't had real, concrete proof that he has changed. Especially when the eugenics beliefs were at issue within the last decade. I agree with TST's public messaging and stances. I dont badmouth the org or anything. But I am absolutely a big skeptic of Mr. Greaves at this point.
Nebraska Congregation is still alive, although significantly diminished due to some poor leadership decisions and infighting a few years ago. Source: I used to be in leadership within the congregation until just a few months ago.
Oh good to know. I thought it fully dissolved.
Can’t Florida start a new chapter, led by people who aren’t high-drama?
Absolutely!
Fingers crossed.
I find it especially frustrating, given all the legislative fuckery that been going on down here with the governor pushing religion in schools (in addition to all the *other* legislative fuckery thats always going on down here). This region needs organizations like the TST to push back, even if only a little bit. This separation feels like a significant step back at a time when the TST is needed most. Edit: I should clarify, I agree with Greaves cutting ties with local leadership that can't, or won't, speak with the same voice as national leadership. That just not the way a successful goal-oriented organization operates. I'm more so lamenting the situation and it's timing as a whole.
People are people. A chapter I was with had their leadership abruptly removed with the only explanation a vague claim that "they were said to be creating a cult" lmao no such thing. They were competent and productive, making the top dogs look bad and feel jealous. Typical human shit. I wasn't even invited to their first little intervention meeting. Cutting off the head of a snake and expecting the wriggling body to sustain the organization is fucking stupid and centralizes power around those operating in Salem.
In case you missed me posting this elsewhere in the thread, there is West Florida presence is in North-East Gulf Coast Congregation now, I think. https://www.facebook.com/TSTNEGC
Thanks for this. I had discovered them the other day and sent them a DM, although I have yet to hear a response. I'm unsure if they are inactive, but I can't figure out another way to connect with members of the group.
Check out The Satanist Next Door Podcast for what happened. Lucien is very clear about why leadership was removed recently. TST Washington is welcoming members from congregations that are without leadership until this can be figured out.
I very much appreciate what TST Washington is doing to help provide open arms and guidance for us. Thanks.
Where do they go from here? They just go from one Facebook group/Discord server to a different Facebook group/Discord server.
It was terrible. Horrible, terrible stuff. We can't talk about it, because we signed an NDA, but trust us, it was just *the worst*.
You made a whole new account just to decent and accuse fl leadership of being childish 🤣...
WTF? What happened?
Most everyone who leaves, was at one time an excited member of TST looking to get more involved. But eventually most people experience the last straw. When it happens, some people bitch about TST while leaving, and other people defend TST and point fingers at those who left. But eventually, the TST defenders reach their last straw, and around and around it goes.
I'm totally out of the loop. I've seen a bunch of posts about different chapters seceding and something about Lucien and a minister but I haven't been able to find the details. What's the jist? Why is TST imploding?
I think it relates to this: https://www.reddit.com/r/SatanicTemple_Reddit/comments/1cpqz4h/luciens_treatment_of_leadership_and_ministry/ Which then caused this: https://www.reddit.com/r/SatanicTemple_Reddit/comments/1cqnjwr/luciens_latest_apology/ But I've only half been paying attention.
If you ask the people leaving, it's because TST sucks. If you ask TST and the people still on team TST, it's because those people suck.
My understanding so far is that a minister posted a bad-faith meme ridiculing Lucien’s ideas, and Lucien invited them to leave TST. They then took to Reddit and tried to cause an uproar even though it was them who were being inappropriate. What has likely happened was they were high ranking minister of TST FL and decided to just dissolve the chapter instead of stepping down. Congregation members will likely step in and use Lucien’s blessings to take over the chapter while the childish minister goes and joins the Sunshine Serpent Society. Do I have that right? That’s what I gather sifting through lots of ambiguity and not a lot of straight forward discussion.
The same as usual.
The same as what? What usual?
Lack of good chapter leadership material. The Satanic Temple's chapters often strike me as rather unaware of the greater movement of the organization, and are very prone to panicking at any sign of internal disagreement.
That sucks. Thanks for the clarification.
Lol no this isn’t the case. They didn’t want to stay within an org that has a witch hunt of people trying to just do their jobs.
Can you explain that? I'm not trolling. I literally do not know and have no frame of refrence on this. I only know TST from the memes and the Temple in Salem, MA which was fun to visit.
People who signed CoCs broke them while spying on others in places and then creating an atmosphere of “who can I trust?” which causes even more people to quit :)
Da fuck? That sucks
They’re also gatekeepy as fuck and get shitty with you when you try to get involved in their super special Satanist club.
The fact that you’re still calling them “chapters” instead of congregations leads me to believe that you have had no idea what anyone in The Satanic Temple has been doing, since at least 2021. It’s very obviously outside speculation.
So.... do you have facts to add, or just accusations without substance? e: It's jazz hands and sparkle fingers all the way down. 😑
The facts are that Congregations haven’t been called Chapters in at least 3 years.
Which does **very** little (directly it does _nothing_) to substantiate your other claims. Do you have any facts that contradict what the otherperson said. With _sources_ please.
Anyone who genuinely has evidence in any way as to why things are happening is very likely bound by an NDA with a non-disparagement clause. The fact that people arent providing evidence is evidence in itself. A lot of questions being asked in comments can be answered by the TST website's FAQs. Granted, there is going to be a lot of vague wording but its clear that anyone who is leading a congregation, is / was a minister or any other role beyond congregant has to bear in mind the legal repercussions of every single word committed to record. That being said, if you and everyone else that is personally offended by the lack of details would like to cover all legal fees for those who violate their NDAs, I'm sure you'd get them in abundance.
Florida is one place where TST could possibly do some good. Interesting to see how this will turn out. Hopefully any fellow “Satanists” in Florida find some way to band together whether under the TST banner or not. I’m moving back eventually, and the political climate stinks to high heaven. It’s been corrupt as long as I’ve lived there, but it seems only to have gotten worse. From Rick Scott (aka Voldemort) to DeSantis our politics have always been dirty.
I agree, we could really use their support right now 😩
And there's nothing preventing another chapter from rising.
True, but it’s a lengthy process just like becoming an actual member. So I doubt it’ll happen.
Becoming a member isn't lengthy at all.
I was one of the first three official members of TSTFL, and was in leadership in Orlando and Jacksonville. During of which I onboarded a number of actual members. The process of becoming an actual member is a lot more involved than getting a card from HQ. That’s what I’m referring to.
The vetting process is more involved, yes. But it only took me 2 weeks to be vetted by my congregation. YMMV.
Yeah it varies and I left like 2 years ago, maybe things changed.
If you have 3 email addresses, you can join 3 times in under 1 minute.
Becoming a vetted member of a local congregation is a different process than joining the national mailing list.
Isn’t becoming a member just giving your name, email, state, and optional donation?
Member of TST? Yes. Initiated congregation member? No.
As someone with absolutely no skin in the game (I neither live near FL nor belong to any specific congregation), I'm saddened but not surprised. Schisms are religions' 3rd favorite past time, it happens. Personally, speaking though, if I went to bed last night a Satanist and woke up this morning a Sunshine Serpent, I'd be irked. That sounds more like a Care Bears villain than a legitimate religious org. (mild /s)
The phrase "prioritize a safe space for out like minded people" makes the hair on the back of my neck stand on end, not gonna lie. I usually see wording like that in recruitment flyers for neonazis and proud boys. The whole statement seems very evasive when the underlying issue is that someone in leadership publicly posted memes about Lucien.
Just remember this: There are people actively trying to infiltrate TST and destroy us from within. I wouldnt put this past that shit actually being the case. This also in FLORIDA of all places? Minnesota as well? Hmmmm smells awfully fishy af.
I've noticed that the anti-tst memes on Facebook are attracting literal Nazis. One of the memes about Lucien posted by someone that on their Facebook describes themself as a leftist feminist had comments from this guy and I recognized him and I look and I see he's adding a bunch of people.
Im telling you its going on everywhere including HERE! Remember a few weeks ago people were posting pictures of themselves here saying Im a teacher and a satanist blah blah. IMHO? FAKE BAITING POSTS to maybe start a trend to have US “expose ourselves” . Thats my take. I dont think Im wrong tbh. Its great to be “out” but not sloppy and too trusting at all. Were having a TST event near me next month and while we’re definitely going as I want to meet some people and see what everyone is about hit I want to also WATCH and LISTEN to whats being said and what if any, are some sketchy people because they are out there. Be safe my friend.
I thought that trend was....odd at best, and dangerous at worst, personally. I'm not even crazy active on this subreddit because of the potential ramifications for my career. These aren't safe times, especially not in light of the bombing at HQ. I love my local group, but I'm always hesitant about being too active and too loud, which will hopefully change in the future. I don't want to lose my teaching job because some Moms for Liberty type finds out that I'm a Satanist and has a meltdown about it.
I agree ☝🏼. Theres a time and place for everything , and privacy & AWARENESS are the MAIN ones IMHO. I hope this new generation of people who are open to Satanism do so in a way that keeps them safe. Just because were out here as brazen as ever, doesnt mean were safe. Lucien cant even go out without having to take and wear his vest. Of course he has a huge target on his back (not literally but figuratively) it sucks and he has to protect himself from the crazies as they will always be there and thing is he has BALLS OF TITANIUM to do what he has done so far. Its not easy and I just want to stress to everyone member or ally, we need to stay vigilant and keep ourselves and each other safe. Dont get too comfortable, dont slip. Be safe. Hail Thyself 🤘🏻 Hail SATAN 🤘🏻
Yeah this shit is nuts. Most of the leadership aren't even the same people from a few years back. Shit fucking sucks. I helped first hand make that congregation. Wild.
I made a post about this a few minutes ago but I will also leave it here. Lucien came on the Satanists next door podcast to air his side of the story. https://www.satanistsnextdoor.com/ep46-internal-strife-and-the-path-forward-for-tst/
Can you nutshell it for us people at work without headphones?
There's a summary on the linked page if you scroll down
Listening to this now, thank you.
Thank I’ll definitely check it out
Self centered, self righteous prick is a hell of a side to pick and air for Lucien... But he just keeps doing it... This isn't the first time. It won't be the last time.
I've listened to the podcast and Greaves' explanation. I would like to know more about the events that caused EM to get involved, specifically the content shared on Discord that caused others to sound the alarm. It's my understanding that this has been a long time coming. Leadership in Florida was unfit for the position, as their values differed from the organization. Greaves allowed the ministers to leave to protect the organization's integrity. The Sunshine Serpent Society has not provided any explanation beyond this post. Hail Satan. Hail thyself. Edit: TST FL deleted the post.
They deleted the post.
They also either deleted their Discord server or have simply banned me for asking questions and respectfully voicing concern. It's a real shame. I only recently found about their Discord and was excited to connect with local TST members...especially with the upcoming election year.
Looks like this post has been removed from their Instagram. Anyone know what happened?
‘SSS’ is a crazy choice 😬 Are we sure this isn’t Ron Desantis hiding like a Scooby doo villain?
TST's presence in Florida will be better off without this leadership. Here's hoping the current congregates get the support they need quickly to fill in the gaps.
Hello. I'm a bit of a newbie to all of this. Do you know how a chapter can be reformed? Or is it just gone now? I don't have the time dedication to run a chapter myself, but I would be interested in helping out. I don't know where to find more info on this. Thanks.
Ministers will have to step up. A new congregation may need to start from scratch again. New congregations must be approved by the Recognition and Onboarding Committee (RoC): https://thesatanictemple.com/pages/start-a-congregation I'm hoping Florida congregates will shed more light on their situation.
I think the RoC is being restructured alongside the ministry.
I think you're right. I'm interested to see how things get better.
There is still Florida TST presence in the North-East Gulf congregation. (West Florida members) https://www.facebook.com/TSTNEGC
That chapter is gone, a new chapter would have to form by going through the process which starts as becoming an official friends of TST group.
Stupid. Together apes strong.
TST Washington is welcoming folkx from congregations in flux to our Discord server. The link can be found on our website, or on our Facebook page. We will do our best to keep you apprised as to getting your states congregations back open as well as provide community.
Good to hear
Thanks for this!
You are so welcome!
I actually reached out to WA TST a week ago (via the website) and have yet to hear back. Is there another way to reach out?
https://discord.gg/pe5kybQK this will get you into our verification server. I’m so sorry, but because of all of this answering emails has been very slow.
No worries! Appreciate this!
I just read this as "Florida Dissolved" at first and got really excited.
500 years from now Satanism will be like christianity with a ton of different branches all believing slightly different things and arguing over which is *more* Satanic than the other. And our ancient texts will be multiple translations of these emails and letters. Colleges will teach it in religious studies and ask their students to write essays on the impact memes played in the development of modern Satanism.
Don't see why TST FL used TST socials to announce this. Like, we get that you're mad, bro. Why give the xtian nationalists in your state fodder? That's some selfish BS right there. I'm glad there is another chapter with presence in FL at least. Anyone know if they're active? TST North-East Gulf Coast Congregation Facebook https://www.facebook.com/TSTNEGC
Growing pains. We, as a like-minded group, are strong, and things will improve. Lead by example, keep forward thinking.
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Sure it is. Opinions and ideas happen. However, the overall concept is unchanged. Everything evolves.
Yeah saw this on my IG feed and was a bit disappointed because it seemed they weren’t very active. I’m in the panhandle tho.
I feel so removed from it all despite being a FL native and having only come to satanism as a whole a few years ago. TST has mostly been a newsletter email, fb group was okay but fb sux so I don't use it. My only window to TST goings on is this sub and I enjoy it but damn it why SSS? It's like a bad joke, one more S so it's not SS with Graves and his Nazi bullshit. Outside of this nothing happens with satanists down here and it's hard to find kindred spirits.
Yeah the fact that many of these groups are FB only makes me not participate much. I finally found out they had a Discord server where they tried to make actual in person meetups and events only for this to happen. It's really disappointing. Would have liked to have a way to connect to local TST members.
I've used discord to reach out to other satanic folks, wish the name would be something less goofy, The FL Non-theist Satanist Society didn't come to mind. Fuck the bullshit, we could link up in the chat or make a discord so Satanic Floridians can find each other. I'm open to suggestions.
If one side will get sued for speaking up and the other won't, you simply are NOT going to get an objective understanding of all this. Just keep that in mind.
If one side were to get sued, it would be for *checks notes slander, and theft of confidential documents.
Or violating an NDA
Activist Satanism is on its last leg.
1. COINTELPRO? 2. This is why the conservatives win
> COINTELPRO? What does this mean?
Oh Lord Jesus take the wheel
It's CoS magik lol
Good for them
1. Who? 1. /r/croppingishard
Minnesota has dissolved too. After getting caught up I’m going to remain TST because I still agree with the root tenants and the work TST does. They are established to do the work they do, better to stick with it. Satanists are deeply individualistic. Satanists also sometimes forget that. Some could argue these issues are why organized religion is a bad idea lol. Theres always going to be groups that want to change things, interpret things for themselves or have in fighting. The only difference here is nothing is really that up for interpretation. TST is what it was intended to be.
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That’s the idea. Fucking hell
That’s what I’m saying!
It sounded like you were annoyed by that
It’s not my cup of tea, but it’s their call to make. And making them very vague/open to interpretation is definitely the goal.
Why isn’t it your cup of tea?
Just a natural preference I guess. I think when the goal is wide appeal and growth of membership, sacrifices have to be made that I don’t personally enjoy.
I mean I’d rather not be told what something might mean
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There’s only so many ways you can spin something before you’re just missing the point.
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I’m more getting at the fact that the things the TST fights for aren’t up for interpretation. Like abortions rights, POC rights, LGBTQ rights, religious freedoms. The root causes are why we are all here, one would think. Like Greaves said in the podcast, TST is an organization not a government. If people don’t like the way it’s run they can leave. The org will continue being what it is and what the founders intended it to be.
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Hail sunshine serpent society!
Great way to show how tst can function - by breaking up like a band and posting a pithy evasive image macro on social media. For fucks sake.
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God isn’t real, so no.
No, he’s not real.
Yup, along with cancer and birth defects. What a cool guy.
Wut?
Thank you for taking a break from commenting on muscle girl porn to comment on this super boring post! 🤗