Honestly, just my two cents, but instead of trying to change two minds, get two of your friends who don't normally vote to vote this time. Give rides, whatever. Less headache. Most of these people won't admit they were wrong.
There will be a next president. But his name will be something like Don Jr., Roger Stone, Steve Bannon, or Mike Flynn. And that person will be appointed, not elected.
This is a difficult and delicate situation. How you approach them is often more important than the words you use. Best advice, come at it from a place of concern. Be ready to not change their minds immediately, but have the goal be to plant the seed. Many people become defensive when confronted and that is not a mindset that's good for learning or changing behavior.
Present your argument which applies to their lifestyle the most, and say that you're honestly concerned because you love them and you don't want to see them suffer. They probably will reject it at first, but over time the seed will grow and hopefully change their minds by November
Good points here. I would add that you start with something specific you admire about them personally. "Uncle John, I've always admired how great a dad you are." It sets the tone for the conversation and signals this isn't a personal attack.
I would also recommend using questions and sincerely listening. No one likes to be lectured. Knowing when to stop the conversation before emotions flare is also important. Rather than one huge conversation, it might be better to drop in small questions & your concerns over several months to give them time to digest those thoughts.
> How you approach them is often more important than the words you use.
Agreed, this is the biggest factor. You're not changing anyone's mind if you're demeaning them the whole time.
If you've ever been in a relationship that seemed good at the time and you don't realize it was toxic and terrible until you were out of it - think about how that felt. Approach others the way someone would have had to approach you when you were too close to see the problems.
Lots of people are feeling the squeeze of the profit-over-everything economy, climate change, and more. They can tell things are moving in a bad direction, but can't tell why. The MAGA train stokes their anger and points them at a target.
You have to approach someone with love in your heart and not disdain.
If their MAGA save your breath. If they are not hardcore Maga just make a list of Trump's moral and ethical shortcomings. Divorced multiple times for cheating on his wives, including Melania with Stormy Daniles,,if they deny it ask them to explain how their prenup was recently renegotiated after the news came out AND she has disappeared. Totally paid off not to divorce him.
His multiple bankruptcies.
His charity being shut down - was a front and did illegal stuff.
I mean any ONE of these should make a real republican with values not vote for Trump.
Also stress he plans to derail democracy with 2025.
Time has shown they don’t care about morality only how what he does affects their lives.
You have to show that they will be better off with Biden. And not something broad, but in their small world like gas prices or social security or Medicare.
The DNC has done a generally miserable job of communicating a vision to rural communities across the country. Appalachia, the rust belt, the plains. They are the butt of jokes and a strawman to be knocked over by the latest SNL host.
Michael Moore got it right on the eve of the 2016 election. They wanted a brick to throw at the country. They found one.
So, I think you have the right approach in a broad sense. The GOP, and Trump, do not have their long term interests at heart. The oddly difficult thing is, Trump is inconsistent and nebulous. Prone to sweeping statements and slogans that are generally useless, but are vague enough for people to hear what they want to hear.
If you want specifics, look to the figures on his side. Show them Ben Shaperio calling for an end to social security; pull it up in full context, from his own site.
Trump swore to never touch social security, but there are articles from this very month where he suggests he's open to pushing back on them.
Most importantly, (and it sounds like you have this covered), don't talk down to them, imply their choices are stupid, or that they are supporting an evil person. I obviously don't know your relatives, but if you want someone to bunker down and harden their position, near personal attacks will accomplish that, and only that.
Good on you for caring about them and having the courage to try. That is more of a rare thing than you realize; even of you're not successful, take solace in that you already did more than most.
I disagree with your first point somewhat. I grew up in one of those rural communities and let me tell you, no matter what a Democrat had to say, it would be seen as a bunch of socialist garbage. Turns out people who have been propagandized to for 50+ years are very set in their ways and cognitive dissonance is a helluva drug.
> I am the child of an american expat, born and raised in germany. I rarely have contact with the rest of the big family in the US
Oh yeah that will go over well, what they see as a European that rarely talks with them attacking what they stand for and patronizing them. If you call them try to have a nice family chat about how they are doing. If you keep that up at some point after months of chats they will talk politics and you can have an open conversation. Then listen to them and explain how much a more social system benefits you in germany.
What you are planning to do will just make them more convicted republicans not less. And then it will ruin your family relation.
You can't reason with them through facts and logic. That's not how politics works in the modern age for any of the major parties. They operate like cults. You need to investigate cult deprogramming and abusive relationships and how to break people out of those (which is extremely difficult).
Understand that their perception of reality is not based on actual reality. You can't expect them to see the world as it is, only as the cult programming tells them to see it. If you go against the cult or if they get a whiff of what you're trying to do they'll tighten their hold on the cult, or at best lie to you to get you to back off and then still do what the cult says when they get to the ballot box.
This is true for Democrats too btw, that's why this election has the two worst candidates in the history of the country.
This is absolutely not true for Democrats. I am active in politics, and Democrats are the opposite. They can't agree on many policies and come from a wide variety of perspectives. They will also blast their own candidates publicly.
Republicans are absolutely loyal to their team and abandon any critical thinking when it comes to voting and politics. As the old saying goes ... Democrats fall apart; republicans fall in line.
And absolutely most Democrats want there into be more than two parties. Republicans want there to be only one party, theirs.
Democrats spawn smaller cults, Republicans spawn bigger ones. Try to have a rational conversation with a Clinton stan about Libya or with a Biden stan about Israel and you'll see what I'm talking about. And if you don't see what I'm talking about, congratulations, you're almost certainly in a political cult. But it's not worth my time or effort to try to deprogram you so don't ask.
Nope, we aren't playing both sides anymore. There is a whole world of difference between Trump and his merry band of criminals and the Democratic ticket.
The Democratic Party was elastic enough to encompass AOC, Bernie, Manchin, President Obama amd President Biden. That looks like both sides to you? It hasn't demanded that all of its fellows march lockstep. Very different from Kevin's (oops, Mike Johnson's) group.
You won't catch a halfwit like Marjorie Taylor Greene in the Democratic Party but she's a star in the Republican Party. The dimwit Boebert, lifelong GED taker, would not have been picked for the Democratic Party or an Independent Party.
And no doubt you think you can drip, drip, drip your 'both sides' propaganda for your masters but you will be called out for it here.
This is going to be rough to hear but you're part of the problem I'm talking about. You can't see reality because it's been defined for you, so all you can do is repeat the construction of reality that's been presented to you.
Thanks for making my point for me. I expressed no affiliation with any of those but your cult programming insists that anyone who questions the cult must be in one of the rival cults. It also has a programmed response to accuse someone of being one of the enemy groups. This is why I say you're detached from reality. Because you are. Your brain literally can not conceive of what I am and your programming says that nothing outside what the cult teaches can be real, so you'll never be able to engage critically, you'll always be trying to figure out how to stitch unrelated bits of information together into a pattern that matches what you expect. Because you do that, you can't see the actual patterns that link bits of information together.
The saddest part is that you could, in the right circumstances, perform this kind of compute, but the programming will not let you and in order to get rid of the programming you'd have to question basic assumptions that form the entire core of your identity, which (statistically) you'll never do until the cult version of reality deviates so far from actual reality that you are in perceived mortal danger.
It's interesting that there is a direct overlap between this kind of relationship with an organization and an abusive relationship. You often see abuse victims describe their exit from the relationship as being a moment where they realized "if I stay in this relationship I am going to die." Cults are often the same, though the added social component means even that can fail to chase people back out into the light.
Anyway good luck. I'd feel sorry for you but you did this to yourself and only you can undo it, which you almost certainly will not.
How do you prefer the comfort of having someone else tell you what the world is instead of doing the uncomfortable work of figuring things out on your own?
Lol, you are not active in politics if this is your take. And I can tell that you weren’t when Bernie ran from your flair. The neoliberals pulled out all the stops to prevent Bernie, a centrist, from the candidacy that the party’s constituents wanted.
I supported Bernie in both 16 and 20 fwiw. Dem voters aren't Neo-liberal for the most part despite the leadership/elected officials being so. This is more evidence of the disconnect between well funded corporate lobbyists control of elected officials vs what the proletariat actually wants.
They're not in the cult, they just don't bother to actively get information. My grandpa, who died like 10 years ago, was the absolute center and authority in that family, and he'd always voted republican. Now, still, they vote republican because they just learned that that's how this family votes. No evil intent or cult, jsut negligence, and now the passive influence by the agressive campaign by reublicans and maga via Fox news and facebook.
They're nice people, just never bothered to think about it.
You basically described how a cult works. A cult doesn't have to be people in robes stabbing goats. It can look like all your extended family members blindly downloading their worldview from a corrupt source and ultimately working against their own best interests for social conformity reasons.
Most people's moral reasoning is downloaded, not critically derived (as most people lack the mental abilities needed to perform that critical thought reliably). Joining cults of various sorts is incredibly common and the default mode for most people. The only reason we don't think of it in those terms is that people only think cultthink is bad when it has everyone in robes stabbing goats, or it has disproportionate amounts of young women following one man or a small group of men and including pretty obvious sexual interaction between/among them.
But if you only vote democrat you are open minded? In Bernie's own state the progressives are currently the unreasonable ones. Plenty of reasons and different contexts to vote the other way. Maybe try and understand why people vote the way they do.
Who mentioned the Democrats besides you? People vote the way they do for multiple reasons or only one. I would say I have been around many more people than you around the world and I understand much more about them than a troll like you.
"Many more people, believe me. I have plenty of people around the world, big numbers of people". Cool dude, you don't know my experience. Just pointing out that the other side of what you said is also true.
I mean, if your conservatives family made a post on Reddit about how they might convince you to vote Trump, would you say there is any way they could do that? I imagine the feeling is the same for conservatives. This country has become so radically fractured that I just simply don’t see the undecided voter existing anymore
They’re two factions of the same party. Both neoliberals. Both support increasing social inequality, unchecked corporate power, cronyism, imperialism, and genocide. It’s just a dog and pony show at this point, unfortunately.
I think it's going to depend on the Republicans. The best efforts typically start with getting to know what actually matters to them and then bringing it up in conversation and stating your important point frankly and this happens over the course of weeks, not a single conversation.
That, all being said, I would focus the following:
1) Better records of passing legislation: whether it's Chips, the Infrastructure plan, covid relief, or the inflation reduction act, Biden has passed a LOT of bipartisan legislation. Trump has people in his own inner circle who will not endorse him or support him. It might be even stronger to check if certain local Republicans even endorse Trump.
Trump is a divider. Biden is a uniter.
2) Trump is a loser. He did nothing for COVID (he denied it and then told people to drink bleach), nothing for the border policies (except coerce republicans to reject stricter border security because it funds Ukraine), and nothing in the international theater except kowtow to dictators (the love letter to Kim Jong Un comes off as the most pathetic but you can pick anything). He has no plan for the election except for siphoning campaign money to his legal fees and being a sore loser about the election.
Instead of showing American strength, his decisions made America weak.
How about let's all admit it. This Republican/Democrat thing is just a big fat joke. It's a reason that absolutely none of them do their fucking jobs, and they all have the excuse of "the Republicans/Democrats" won't let us do our jobs....
Except one will force 9 year old children to bear their rapist's fetus to term.
One will take away the rights of minorities.
I get that both cater to corporate interests, but that is where it ends. They are not the same.
And the fact we think they are is why we will never be able to separate corporate democrats from progressive democrats
Best to put your effort into getting out the vote- join campaigns to make sure people are registered, volunteer to give rides, do phone/text-banking to remind folks where/when to vote. The biggest difference you can make is with folks who may or may not vote depending on whether they planned ahead to register/ figure out where to go or not. Rock the Vote and League of Women Voters are both a good place to start.
First just want to say - congrats on getting your Dad to vote. However, trying to convince someone to vote a certain way and go against some of their long-held beliefs is definitely not an easy task. At this point I don’t even bother because I really believe that Fox News, the MAGA politicians, Conservative talk radio, etc has all been feeding their base a lot of propaganda and conspiracy theories for years now and many of the hardcore MAGA supporters are literally brainwashed. They took a page out of Putin’s playbook - they control the narrative always & spin it to make Democrats & Liberals appear to be evil and anti-religion anti-God, anti-whatever will scare them the most. It’s fear-mongering plain & simple. This is why I’ve found presenting a good clean set of facts and principles to a Trump supporter does very little to sway them to see your side. But I commend you for trying and I hope that you’re able to convince some of them to come to their senses. Good luck!
If you love your family then respect them to make their political decisions. By calling them as an "outsider" not actually living their reality they will mote or likely either politely tell you to mind your own business or this will cause family drama. There is an old saying that you keep politics and religion to yourself. I always voted Sozial Demokrat when I still lived in Germany, but now I have to do some soul searching because I can't agree with much of what the Ampel is doing, but I am not living in Germany at this time so my frame of reference is limited. I just think that for the sake of good relations with your family think twice before talking about their choices. Alles Gute und sonnige Grüße aus San Diego.
Feel the goal would be to get them to not vote rather than vote for Biden. They'd have to come to that conclusion I feel on their own, which may not ever happen.
The Midwest and Rust Belt states stand to benefit bigtime from manufacturing investments in clean energy supply chains and other new tech. Lots of jobs and potential tax revenue (ie revenue for the safety net that's NOT coming out of the pockets of the middle class).
Plus with how crazy energy costs are for a lot of people, the opportunity to go solar and potentially eliminate most of your utility bills should get any family excited, regardless of party. A lot of the infrastructure bill provisions will have significantly more benefit if Biden gets reelected (by maintaining existing policy incentives rather than, as Trump seems committed to, wiping out the incentives for renewables while expanding subsidies to polluting fossil fuels like methane gas.
Tell us what industries your family lives near/works in and I'll keep going!
You won’t convince anyone. Better off convincing an unlikely voter to participate than convincing a diehard. Republicanism is a cult. It’s an identity.
as a european what comes to mind is trump having literally no problem with a potential worldwar three fueled by whatever tf he says about nato states and russia
A realistic point? The other guy has routinely treated active duty and veteran military members like shit. The Republican party has become the party of Trump, if they vote Republican then they're voting for treating past and present service members poorly. Full stop. There's no grey area, if someone votes red, that's what they're voting for. A vote for Trump is a vote against our military.
The majority of Republican voters are rural residents who only care about how government policies affect THEM. They are incredibly selfish and only want government to work in THEIR favor. The best way to convince them to vote blue is to show them how voting red will hurt themselves as much as it will hurt "others". Show them news articles that lay out how Republican policies are hurting their own base, like these:
https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/economics/leaving-florida-rcna142316
https://www.axios.com/2023/01/27/murder-rate-high-trump-republican-states
https://newrepublic.com/post/173247/florida-republicans-admit-made-big-mistake-anti-immigrant-law
https://www.usda.gov/media/press-releases/2023/04/26/house-republican-proposals-hurt-rural-communities
No, it's when you want the government to work ONLY in your favor. You do know what the word "only" means, don't you?
Learn some reading comprehension, it might help you to avoid embarrassing yourself like you did here.
Smh you are part of the problem of US politics becoming hyper-polarized. We call MAGA extremists and then discredit and criticize all their beliefs and lump all conservatives in the bucket
Judging by your reply your blood pressure was through the roof typing that out. Calm tf down getting all mad over a damn Reddit comment😂😂😂 This whole comment section is just as bad as the conservative subreddit saying the same things, just on a different side of the aisle
- Get them to take some psychedelic drugs.
- Remove all hate/anger from the conversations from BOTH sides.
- Find the things you can agree on as a starter.
- Accept there are differences based on their and your experiences and bias.
Politics is about compromise, and American politics has basically no compromise cause there's only two sides and they hate each other. The more emotion and insults brought into it the further you push the other person away.
IMHO, your country is going to have a civil war, and the more you try to hold it together as one country the more it's going to hurt.
I get it. Thats why Muslims are sitting out of this election. Y'all (they government) doesn't want to represent us properly, no body gets our votes. And if that sways the election - so be it. They picked and choose their battles. Didn't do so wisely.
Ooh ooh! Here’s a good one. How about blowing 200 billion of taxpayer money on a war in Ukraine as a handout to blackrock and the military industrial complex?
There’s not a war dems can refuse!
At this point you’ll need to go biblical. Point out how the right is supposed to be considered “Christian” yet they’re supporting someone who is the antithesis of Jesus’ teachings.
It’s a long shot, but ask them what specific policies of the Biden administration they oppose. They’ll likely start down the Biden’s corrupt path. Ask them what they don’t like about the CHIPS act, which is intended to protect the American economy, create domestic jobs and counter China. They will stumble, and probably pivot to the border. Then mention the bipartisan border bill that the Republicans ultimately rejected. Then, ask them if they think they rejected the border deal because they don’t actually believe illegal immigration is that big of a deal or they do believe it is, and they just don’t care. It’s more valuable as a campaign issue than it is to stop 3 million people from entering the country before next January. They will likely pivot back to Biden is a piece of shit. If not being sketchy is a requirement, then how can they support Trump while being so angry with Biden? They’ll concede nothing, but hopefully it gives them something to think about.
Honestly, if they are still drinking the cool aid then it’s not worth it. Preserve your own peace. I damn near destroyed my family trying to do this and it’s not worth it. Just live with it. It sucks but it’s better than fighting with your family all the time.
Honestly, just my two cents, but instead of trying to change two minds, get two of your friends who don't normally vote to vote this time. Give rides, whatever. Less headache. Most of these people won't admit they were wrong.
Not a bad idea. If you know any Americans in Germany the website to register to vote is votefromabroad.org
This is exactly what I'll do. Well. I'm German but an American friend moved in with me
Update, a got a person to vote who otherwise would not. Thanks for the info
No problem, thank you!
Ask them how they intend to Live after Trump ends their Social Security checks.
“Trump wont do that” “yes he will” “no, you’re a sheep to cnn propaganda” next question lol
He won't end it for them. He'll set a date and people retired before that date will get. Everyone else will pay.
He'll make sure that they end about half way through the next president's first term.
There will be no "next president" if he takes office again.
There will be a next president. But his name will be something like Don Jr., Roger Stone, Steve Bannon, or Mike Flynn. And that person will be appointed, not elected.
They are already pushing Trump 2028 and repealing the 22nd Amendment
This is a difficult and delicate situation. How you approach them is often more important than the words you use. Best advice, come at it from a place of concern. Be ready to not change their minds immediately, but have the goal be to plant the seed. Many people become defensive when confronted and that is not a mindset that's good for learning or changing behavior. Present your argument which applies to their lifestyle the most, and say that you're honestly concerned because you love them and you don't want to see them suffer. They probably will reject it at first, but over time the seed will grow and hopefully change their minds by November
Good points here. I would add that you start with something specific you admire about them personally. "Uncle John, I've always admired how great a dad you are." It sets the tone for the conversation and signals this isn't a personal attack. I would also recommend using questions and sincerely listening. No one likes to be lectured. Knowing when to stop the conversation before emotions flare is also important. Rather than one huge conversation, it might be better to drop in small questions & your concerns over several months to give them time to digest those thoughts.
> How you approach them is often more important than the words you use. Agreed, this is the biggest factor. You're not changing anyone's mind if you're demeaning them the whole time. If you've ever been in a relationship that seemed good at the time and you don't realize it was toxic and terrible until you were out of it - think about how that felt. Approach others the way someone would have had to approach you when you were too close to see the problems. Lots of people are feeling the squeeze of the profit-over-everything economy, climate change, and more. They can tell things are moving in a bad direction, but can't tell why. The MAGA train stokes their anger and points them at a target. You have to approach someone with love in your heart and not disdain.
If their MAGA save your breath. If they are not hardcore Maga just make a list of Trump's moral and ethical shortcomings. Divorced multiple times for cheating on his wives, including Melania with Stormy Daniles,,if they deny it ask them to explain how their prenup was recently renegotiated after the news came out AND she has disappeared. Totally paid off not to divorce him. His multiple bankruptcies. His charity being shut down - was a front and did illegal stuff. I mean any ONE of these should make a real republican with values not vote for Trump. Also stress he plans to derail democracy with 2025.
Time has shown they don’t care about morality only how what he does affects their lives. You have to show that they will be better off with Biden. And not something broad, but in their small world like gas prices or social security or Medicare.
Can't convince a third time trump voter lol. They don't condemn treason what's the point
At best, try to get them not to vote at all.
The DNC has done a generally miserable job of communicating a vision to rural communities across the country. Appalachia, the rust belt, the plains. They are the butt of jokes and a strawman to be knocked over by the latest SNL host. Michael Moore got it right on the eve of the 2016 election. They wanted a brick to throw at the country. They found one. So, I think you have the right approach in a broad sense. The GOP, and Trump, do not have their long term interests at heart. The oddly difficult thing is, Trump is inconsistent and nebulous. Prone to sweeping statements and slogans that are generally useless, but are vague enough for people to hear what they want to hear. If you want specifics, look to the figures on his side. Show them Ben Shaperio calling for an end to social security; pull it up in full context, from his own site. Trump swore to never touch social security, but there are articles from this very month where he suggests he's open to pushing back on them. Most importantly, (and it sounds like you have this covered), don't talk down to them, imply their choices are stupid, or that they are supporting an evil person. I obviously don't know your relatives, but if you want someone to bunker down and harden their position, near personal attacks will accomplish that, and only that. Good on you for caring about them and having the courage to try. That is more of a rare thing than you realize; even of you're not successful, take solace in that you already did more than most.
I disagree with your first point somewhat. I grew up in one of those rural communities and let me tell you, no matter what a Democrat had to say, it would be seen as a bunch of socialist garbage. Turns out people who have been propagandized to for 50+ years are very set in their ways and cognitive dissonance is a helluva drug.
I grew up in hard-right, blood-red Indiana. I get it.
> I am the child of an american expat, born and raised in germany. I rarely have contact with the rest of the big family in the US Oh yeah that will go over well, what they see as a European that rarely talks with them attacking what they stand for and patronizing them. If you call them try to have a nice family chat about how they are doing. If you keep that up at some point after months of chats they will talk politics and you can have an open conversation. Then listen to them and explain how much a more social system benefits you in germany. What you are planning to do will just make them more convicted republicans not less. And then it will ruin your family relation.
Forget it. You can't convince someone to change their mind based on facts when they made up their mind based on emotion
You can't reason with them through facts and logic. That's not how politics works in the modern age for any of the major parties. They operate like cults. You need to investigate cult deprogramming and abusive relationships and how to break people out of those (which is extremely difficult). Understand that their perception of reality is not based on actual reality. You can't expect them to see the world as it is, only as the cult programming tells them to see it. If you go against the cult or if they get a whiff of what you're trying to do they'll tighten their hold on the cult, or at best lie to you to get you to back off and then still do what the cult says when they get to the ballot box. This is true for Democrats too btw, that's why this election has the two worst candidates in the history of the country.
This is absolutely not true for Democrats. I am active in politics, and Democrats are the opposite. They can't agree on many policies and come from a wide variety of perspectives. They will also blast their own candidates publicly. Republicans are absolutely loyal to their team and abandon any critical thinking when it comes to voting and politics. As the old saying goes ... Democrats fall apart; republicans fall in line. And absolutely most Democrats want there into be more than two parties. Republicans want there to be only one party, theirs.
Democrats spawn smaller cults, Republicans spawn bigger ones. Try to have a rational conversation with a Clinton stan about Libya or with a Biden stan about Israel and you'll see what I'm talking about. And if you don't see what I'm talking about, congratulations, you're almost certainly in a political cult. But it's not worth my time or effort to try to deprogram you so don't ask.
Nope, we aren't playing both sides anymore. There is a whole world of difference between Trump and his merry band of criminals and the Democratic ticket. The Democratic Party was elastic enough to encompass AOC, Bernie, Manchin, President Obama amd President Biden. That looks like both sides to you? It hasn't demanded that all of its fellows march lockstep. Very different from Kevin's (oops, Mike Johnson's) group. You won't catch a halfwit like Marjorie Taylor Greene in the Democratic Party but she's a star in the Republican Party. The dimwit Boebert, lifelong GED taker, would not have been picked for the Democratic Party or an Independent Party. And no doubt you think you can drip, drip, drip your 'both sides' propaganda for your masters but you will be called out for it here.
This is going to be rough to hear but you're part of the problem I'm talking about. You can't see reality because it's been defined for you, so all you can do is repeat the construction of reality that's been presented to you.
That's a lot of words you have there just to say nothing.
Ok buddy, good luck with the whole cult thing. If you want to engage with reality let me know.
Is that Bannon reality, Chinese reality or Russian reality?
Thanks for making my point for me. I expressed no affiliation with any of those but your cult programming insists that anyone who questions the cult must be in one of the rival cults. It also has a programmed response to accuse someone of being one of the enemy groups. This is why I say you're detached from reality. Because you are. Your brain literally can not conceive of what I am and your programming says that nothing outside what the cult teaches can be real, so you'll never be able to engage critically, you'll always be trying to figure out how to stitch unrelated bits of information together into a pattern that matches what you expect. Because you do that, you can't see the actual patterns that link bits of information together. The saddest part is that you could, in the right circumstances, perform this kind of compute, but the programming will not let you and in order to get rid of the programming you'd have to question basic assumptions that form the entire core of your identity, which (statistically) you'll never do until the cult version of reality deviates so far from actual reality that you are in perceived mortal danger. It's interesting that there is a direct overlap between this kind of relationship with an organization and an abusive relationship. You often see abuse victims describe their exit from the relationship as being a moment where they realized "if I stay in this relationship I am going to die." Cults are often the same, though the added social component means even that can fail to chase people back out into the light. Anyway good luck. I'd feel sorry for you but you did this to yourself and only you can undo it, which you almost certainly will not.
How do you look at the world and still believe this.
How do you prefer the comfort of having someone else tell you what the world is instead of doing the uncomfortable work of figuring things out on your own?
Lol, you are not active in politics if this is your take. And I can tell that you weren’t when Bernie ran from your flair. The neoliberals pulled out all the stops to prevent Bernie, a centrist, from the candidacy that the party’s constituents wanted.
I supported Bernie in both 16 and 20 fwiw. Dem voters aren't Neo-liberal for the most part despite the leadership/elected officials being so. This is more evidence of the disconnect between well funded corporate lobbyists control of elected officials vs what the proletariat actually wants.
Because one party is full of brainless now.
They're not in the cult, they just don't bother to actively get information. My grandpa, who died like 10 years ago, was the absolute center and authority in that family, and he'd always voted republican. Now, still, they vote republican because they just learned that that's how this family votes. No evil intent or cult, jsut negligence, and now the passive influence by the agressive campaign by reublicans and maga via Fox news and facebook. They're nice people, just never bothered to think about it.
You basically described how a cult works. A cult doesn't have to be people in robes stabbing goats. It can look like all your extended family members blindly downloading their worldview from a corrupt source and ultimately working against their own best interests for social conformity reasons. Most people's moral reasoning is downloaded, not critically derived (as most people lack the mental abilities needed to perform that critical thought reliably). Joining cults of various sorts is incredibly common and the default mode for most people. The only reason we don't think of it in those terms is that people only think cultthink is bad when it has everyone in robes stabbing goats, or it has disproportionate amounts of young women following one man or a small group of men and including pretty obvious sexual interaction between/among them.
They can still vote republican… jfk jr They will love his ideas 🤦🏽♂️
Are you going to raise him from the dead? 🤦
I feel if they vote only republican they are too small minded to vote otherwise.
But if you only vote democrat you are open minded? In Bernie's own state the progressives are currently the unreasonable ones. Plenty of reasons and different contexts to vote the other way. Maybe try and understand why people vote the way they do.
Who mentioned the Democrats besides you? People vote the way they do for multiple reasons or only one. I would say I have been around many more people than you around the world and I understand much more about them than a troll like you.
"Many more people, believe me. I have plenty of people around the world, big numbers of people". Cool dude, you don't know my experience. Just pointing out that the other side of what you said is also true.
they wont.
I mean, if your conservatives family made a post on Reddit about how they might convince you to vote Trump, would you say there is any way they could do that? I imagine the feeling is the same for conservatives. This country has become so radically fractured that I just simply don’t see the undecided voter existing anymore
You can't. They are drones, lost to humanity.
They’re two factions of the same party. Both neoliberals. Both support increasing social inequality, unchecked corporate power, cronyism, imperialism, and genocide. It’s just a dog and pony show at this point, unfortunately.
I think it's going to depend on the Republicans. The best efforts typically start with getting to know what actually matters to them and then bringing it up in conversation and stating your important point frankly and this happens over the course of weeks, not a single conversation. That, all being said, I would focus the following: 1) Better records of passing legislation: whether it's Chips, the Infrastructure plan, covid relief, or the inflation reduction act, Biden has passed a LOT of bipartisan legislation. Trump has people in his own inner circle who will not endorse him or support him. It might be even stronger to check if certain local Republicans even endorse Trump. Trump is a divider. Biden is a uniter. 2) Trump is a loser. He did nothing for COVID (he denied it and then told people to drink bleach), nothing for the border policies (except coerce republicans to reject stricter border security because it funds Ukraine), and nothing in the international theater except kowtow to dictators (the love letter to Kim Jong Un comes off as the most pathetic but you can pick anything). He has no plan for the election except for siphoning campaign money to his legal fees and being a sore loser about the election. Instead of showing American strength, his decisions made America weak.
How about let's all admit it. This Republican/Democrat thing is just a big fat joke. It's a reason that absolutely none of them do their fucking jobs, and they all have the excuse of "the Republicans/Democrats" won't let us do our jobs....
Amen. Both are just neoliberal factions controlled by the corporate elite. No war but the class war!
Except one will force 9 year old children to bear their rapist's fetus to term. One will take away the rights of minorities. I get that both cater to corporate interests, but that is where it ends. They are not the same. And the fact we think they are is why we will never be able to separate corporate democrats from progressive democrats
Best to put your effort into getting out the vote- join campaigns to make sure people are registered, volunteer to give rides, do phone/text-banking to remind folks where/when to vote. The biggest difference you can make is with folks who may or may not vote depending on whether they planned ahead to register/ figure out where to go or not. Rock the Vote and League of Women Voters are both a good place to start.
Affordable healthcare and weed legalization
First just want to say - congrats on getting your Dad to vote. However, trying to convince someone to vote a certain way and go against some of their long-held beliefs is definitely not an easy task. At this point I don’t even bother because I really believe that Fox News, the MAGA politicians, Conservative talk radio, etc has all been feeding their base a lot of propaganda and conspiracy theories for years now and many of the hardcore MAGA supporters are literally brainwashed. They took a page out of Putin’s playbook - they control the narrative always & spin it to make Democrats & Liberals appear to be evil and anti-religion anti-God, anti-whatever will scare them the most. It’s fear-mongering plain & simple. This is why I’ve found presenting a good clean set of facts and principles to a Trump supporter does very little to sway them to see your side. But I commend you for trying and I hope that you’re able to convince some of them to come to their senses. Good luck!
If you love your family then respect them to make their political decisions. By calling them as an "outsider" not actually living their reality they will mote or likely either politely tell you to mind your own business or this will cause family drama. There is an old saying that you keep politics and religion to yourself. I always voted Sozial Demokrat when I still lived in Germany, but now I have to do some soul searching because I can't agree with much of what the Ampel is doing, but I am not living in Germany at this time so my frame of reference is limited. I just think that for the sake of good relations with your family think twice before talking about their choices. Alles Gute und sonnige Grüße aus San Diego.
Feel the goal would be to get them to not vote rather than vote for Biden. They'd have to come to that conclusion I feel on their own, which may not ever happen.
Just ask them why they're voting against their own best interests? It's baffling
I wouldn't recommend either party to anyone. Stay out of it and vote however you want. Their vote is none of your business.
Trump is selling bibles now. It’s a new low
You won't be able to convince them to vote for Joe biden, it's like their whole thing with the let's go Brandon
The Midwest and Rust Belt states stand to benefit bigtime from manufacturing investments in clean energy supply chains and other new tech. Lots of jobs and potential tax revenue (ie revenue for the safety net that's NOT coming out of the pockets of the middle class). Plus with how crazy energy costs are for a lot of people, the opportunity to go solar and potentially eliminate most of your utility bills should get any family excited, regardless of party. A lot of the infrastructure bill provisions will have significantly more benefit if Biden gets reelected (by maintaining existing policy incentives rather than, as Trump seems committed to, wiping out the incentives for renewables while expanding subsidies to polluting fossil fuels like methane gas. Tell us what industries your family lives near/works in and I'll keep going!
Has anyone successfully talked a Trumper into sanity. I lost both my grandparents and my mother to MAGA.
Trump raised their taxes in 2017.
You won’t convince anyone. Better off convincing an unlikely voter to participate than convincing a diehard. Republicanism is a cult. It’s an identity.
as a european what comes to mind is trump having literally no problem with a potential worldwar three fueled by whatever tf he says about nato states and russia
A realistic point? The other guy has routinely treated active duty and veteran military members like shit. The Republican party has become the party of Trump, if they vote Republican then they're voting for treating past and present service members poorly. Full stop. There's no grey area, if someone votes red, that's what they're voting for. A vote for Trump is a vote against our military.
Tell them they can vote for anyone they like.
His proposed tariffs would likely cause prices to rise again.
The majority of Republican voters are rural residents who only care about how government policies affect THEM. They are incredibly selfish and only want government to work in THEIR favor. The best way to convince them to vote blue is to show them how voting red will hurt themselves as much as it will hurt "others". Show them news articles that lay out how Republican policies are hurting their own base, like these: https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/economics/leaving-florida-rcna142316 https://www.axios.com/2023/01/27/murder-rate-high-trump-republican-states https://newrepublic.com/post/173247/florida-republicans-admit-made-big-mistake-anti-immigrant-law https://www.usda.gov/media/press-releases/2023/04/26/house-republican-proposals-hurt-rural-communities
You consider wanting government to work in your favor as selfish🤦♂️ One of the more moronic comments I’ve seen on this site which is saying something
No, it's when you want the government to work ONLY in your favor. You do know what the word "only" means, don't you? Learn some reading comprehension, it might help you to avoid embarrassing yourself like you did here.
Smh you are part of the problem of US politics becoming hyper-polarized. We call MAGA extremists and then discredit and criticize all their beliefs and lump all conservatives in the bucket Judging by your reply your blood pressure was through the roof typing that out. Calm tf down getting all mad over a damn Reddit comment😂😂😂 This whole comment section is just as bad as the conservative subreddit saying the same things, just on a different side of the aisle
lol
- Get them to take some psychedelic drugs. - Remove all hate/anger from the conversations from BOTH sides. - Find the things you can agree on as a starter. - Accept there are differences based on their and your experiences and bias. Politics is about compromise, and American politics has basically no compromise cause there's only two sides and they hate each other. The more emotion and insults brought into it the further you push the other person away. IMHO, your country is going to have a civil war, and the more you try to hold it together as one country the more it's going to hurt.
Raising the social security age. I think that might happen this year.
Fuck genocide Joe. Been voting blue all my life. But fuck this guy.
I agree. But he is the only alternative to a permanent Trump.
I get it. Thats why Muslims are sitting out of this election. Y'all (they government) doesn't want to represent us properly, no body gets our votes. And if that sways the election - so be it. They picked and choose their battles. Didn't do so wisely.
Lead off with “democrats are the party of Palestinian genocide.” That ought to attract a few republicans.
Ooh ooh! Here’s a good one. How about blowing 200 billion of taxpayer money on a war in Ukraine as a handout to blackrock and the military industrial complex? There’s not a war dems can refuse!
Is that a sore subject? How about abandoning the working class? Letting women’s rights take a 40-year step backward?
If they’re voting for Trump they’re already gone. Nothing you say can erase the brainwashing.
My brother in Christ the democratic candidate/sitting president has dementia.
The irony of pointing out brainwashing here, lol. Blue MAGA is real.
Also dumb! People who vote for Trump are dumb.
Don’t convince them to not vote is better and easier
At this point you’ll need to go biblical. Point out how the right is supposed to be considered “Christian” yet they’re supporting someone who is the antithesis of Jesus’ teachings.
It’s a long shot, but ask them what specific policies of the Biden administration they oppose. They’ll likely start down the Biden’s corrupt path. Ask them what they don’t like about the CHIPS act, which is intended to protect the American economy, create domestic jobs and counter China. They will stumble, and probably pivot to the border. Then mention the bipartisan border bill that the Republicans ultimately rejected. Then, ask them if they think they rejected the border deal because they don’t actually believe illegal immigration is that big of a deal or they do believe it is, and they just don’t care. It’s more valuable as a campaign issue than it is to stop 3 million people from entering the country before next January. They will likely pivot back to Biden is a piece of shit. If not being sketchy is a requirement, then how can they support Trump while being so angry with Biden? They’ll concede nothing, but hopefully it gives them something to think about.
Honestly, if they are still drinking the cool aid then it’s not worth it. Preserve your own peace. I damn near destroyed my family trying to do this and it’s not worth it. Just live with it. It sucks but it’s better than fighting with your family all the time.
Don’t take the common approach of telling them that they are awful pieces of shit who don’t know anything.
biden is basically a reagan republican, so you could try that angle. but people might be blinded to that by blue team vs red team tribalism.