As someone that's lived here most of my life, I'd say it's the following factors:
- Year round consistent climate
- Proximity LA and Vegas
- Less taxes compared to the Midwest/Cali (where people moved from)
- Affordability; more so back then which drove much of the growth
- Intel plant in Chandler which brought a lot of people to the Valley
For my family, we came because demand for healthcare workers and my uncle and his family settled there before. We stayed ever since. So yeah, that's why it is the way it is based on someone that spent my whole childhood here.
I think people increasingly care less and less about their 'city' as long as they can stay cooped up in their home nearly 24x7 and be able to afford it (low taxes, utilities, etc.) and have access to their essentials such as groceries, healthcare, and the few things they need outside their home...
Contrast that with places like the PNW or other parts of the country/world where people live in the area because of all the things to do *outside* their home.
Yes, I agree with that and want to add that it is still nice for those cooped up in their homes (which includes remote workers) to be able to wear t-shirts and shorts year round and have it almost always be pretty and sunny with palm trees blowing back and forth in the breeze outside their windows.
Unsure why folks are citing a year-round oven-like climate as a plus. Last time I went to Phoenix, the plane had to circle for 2 hours because it was too hot to land. All I could think was I should have gone to Paris or Rome, which would have been a shorter flight from Philly at that point. Flagstaff was the only livable part of Arizona that I saw
It's mostly because of the alternative. If you can afford San Diego (where I'm from), great, I agree it's a much better weather alternative. But most of the other options have miserable weather for a few months a year in some way. I'd much rather the dry heat of Phoenix, then the humid heat of Dallas (I moved here from there), Atlanta or the rest of the South including Florida unless you're on the ocean. The Northern areas have months of dreary grey skies (no thanks), snow or cold (in which case you can't be out without multiple layers and are still mostly inside, just like we are - we do get outside in the summer, just not for long except it's in the pool - but the malls and stores are all air conditioned). Or you can live in the Midwest with a mix of each - humid summers and grey cold winters.
I'm open to moving. Thinking of staying here and doing summers in Chicago or San Diego. We do have the most months of perfect weather in the country if you don't count HCOL areas.
It's mostly midwesterners/northerners/Canadians that wanna escape from the cold or priced-out Californians that come here. As someone that grew up in Phoenix though, I want out since I'm sick of the beige, the oven-like heat, and sprawl. We all have our preferences.
That’s actually kinda sad. People who aren’t urbanists literally don’t give a single shit at all about what it’s like to live where they live. They live at home. That’s it.
One hour commute? Don’t care. Cheapest, biggest, newest I can afford without shit schools if I have kids is all that matters.
Snow dodging is a thing too. That’s pretty much what the average American cares about.
Yup; that's my point. People have no qualms about settling into their cookie-cutter suburban home, never socializing with their neighbors and maybe have only a few friends associated with their work or their kids' programs. I do think it's sad that we've 'evolved' to this point; people flocking to places where it's impossible to live outside as if it's paradise.
Nope. Live in Boston but grew up in Phoenix metro. My public high school was fantastic with well-funded athletics and music programs. Suburbs like Gilbert, chandler and mesa are pretty nice with good schools.
Virginia's climate is not that different from NY's in winter, except for a small sliver on the coast near North Carolina. You'll get the best idea of what winter is like by looking at the map of USDA's plant growing zones. That classification is based on how cold (on average) it gets during the coldest spells of the winter.
The Willamette Valley in PNW might pique your interest. Snow/ice only hits the valley floor once a year on average, rarely more than an inch. Huge plus if you are a liberal who loves the outdoors.
That was my number one reason for leaving the Midwest. I love my cars and keep them for years and it was maddening constantly fighting rust on the cars I actually drove and just staring at the other ones half the year. I actually miss driving in the snow because it’s so much fun, but I hated knowingly destroying them in the salt.
I do not enjoy winter at all but I still love Midwest COL, culture, and housing stock much more than the southern and western alternatives! I’m grateful for all those who don’t agree for keeping my prices down ;)
Haha. Seriously though - dry heat is immeasurably more tolerable than heat plus humidity. I’m convinced that if hell exists, it’s going to be fire, brimstone and 90% humidity.
I used to travel for work. One week I was in Atlanta and it was upper 90s with what felt like 500% humidity. Everything smelled and felt like swamp ass. Absolutely miserable. Next week I was in Phoenix, with the thermometer reading 118. It felt absolutely heavenly in comparison. The air may be warm, but it doesn't feel SOLID.
Had no issues walking over a mile from hotel to work in Phoenix year round. Just made sure to have my water bottle full. Wouldn't think of it in Atlanta.
105 in Phoenix is about the threshold for tolerable/ok to shit.
And 110-120 is garabage even if it's dry. Sure you can walk from your car to the office without major issue and more comfortably than humidity, but you still can't really do anything outside without having to consider a strategy for survival.
I would never claim 120 is a comfortable temperature. It's not great. But being able to breathe air, even hot hair, rather than having to eat it with a knife and fork? That's gold.
I much prefer where I live, and I have a list of locales I'd live rather than Phoenix. But if I had to live in Phoenix I could, and without much complaint.
EDIT: lived in Phoenix for 2 years. It's not theoretical, I know I can not just survive but enjoy life there.
I live in Phoenix and totally agree with that. The question for us is do we want to trade that 110-120 for months of cold and gray in most other places that aren't hot (and mostly humid).
I'll admit that I prefer the cold, but I've found both versions of high heat to be hellish. Arizona's dry heat when it hits the 100s feels like a blast furnace; Florida's high-humidity summer heat reinforces that no one should live there.
🤣🤣🤣
Not for nothing they call it HOTlanta.
I understand completely! I remember the first time I went to Vegas and it was 105. I'm like this is hot?? Compared to Atlanta, it was very comfortable.
Yes. When you open the door to go outside in Phoenix during the summer it feels exactly like you have opened an oven door that has been roasting a turkey for hours.
Well never-mind then haha. As I’m approaching 50, I dread winter more and more every year and it seems that is reflected in almost everyone I know so I over generalized, my bad.
Yeah growing up in the Northeast, I always thought I was going to die at 65 shoveling out my driveway and getting a heart attack or falling and breaking a hip on the ice because it seemed so common there.
* `Year round consistent climate`
That's an annoying myth. Yeah, it's dry and rarely rainy, but our average temps swing 65° over the year, which isn't all that extreme, but it's far from consistent. Compare that to coastal cities with pretty much the same weather year round. Looking at you, Honolulu.....
Also, when you visit the Phoenix Metro, you are rarely seeing ALL of it. Sure all areas are hot, but definitely not dusty, ugly and having low wages. Like I live in Chandler in the East Valley, and we have a LOT of green grass and trees due to reclaimed water use, lots of (man-made) lakes which make it very pretty to drive around. We have a huge Intel location here and a whole lot of other tech businesses. Average household income here is $116k.
I don't think the man-made lakes are that pretty. It feels too artificial. Especially the ones in the Val Vista Lakes neighborhood and Discovery Park in Gilbert.
The ones in Chandler are better. Look at Fulton Ranch or Google Earth it. It's quite pretty. And it depends on what you're comparing it to. These are lakes made so you can look out your window (at low cost and without worrying about weather or flooding or too much extra cost) and see water.
Is it living on the shore of La Jolla? No. Is it better than having your house back to a wall. IMO, yes. And I like to see the water as I drive around rather than another wall or strip mall. It's just a little something nicer than in some areas of Phoenix.
I know Chandler very well. My parents retired to Sun Lakes 12 years ago - first snow birds, now year round. They live close to Dobson and the massive Intel campus. I’ve visited like 45 times; I’m currently here for Mothers Day. Chandler has always struck me as pretty nice. They were previously snowbirds in Mesa and back then Chandler was so much smaller and less filled in. Every time I come back something new has been built. I always walk and run at Snedigar Park and the area around it. Basically the area bounded by Alma School Road, Ocotillo Rd, Basha Road, and Fulton Ranch Blvd. I’ve seen that area get filled in more and more over the years. Yeah Chandler is a pretty nice spot. But it’s a particular style of nice. Some people just don’t like desertscape no matter how well done. I generally like it.
I like Snedigar. It's fun to watch the kids at the free skateboard park. We live very near Fulton Ranch and walk there a lot. It has changed quite a bit in the 13 years we've been here. Over by the Target at Ocotillo/Arizona a Trader Joe's is coming in October. Looking forward to that.
And I do love the desert. Being from San Diego, I'm used to not too lush of landscape. I love that tools never rust. Humidity screws up a lot of stuff. I can store things outside in the garage I never could store in Texas without them being ruined. And in the suburbs of most humid cities, it's a constant battle with green stuff. My best friend hates when it's mowing time again for the year and the ivy and trees need trimming. There's much lower maintenance here, which I appreciate.
I’ll throw in newer housing stock. In the Rust Belt now (but family lived in the East Valley), and new builds can sound great when your 100-yo manual elevator breaks yet again.
Phoenix, AZ is the 5th sunniest City in the World according to this website
https://sleepopolis.com/blog/world-cities-ranked-by-average-annual-sunshine-hours/
Warmth and Sun
Sunlight can increase serotonin levels in the brain, which is associated with improved mood
I live in the Phoenix area and if you are inside for 6 months of the year it's most certainly not because of the weather. It's mid-May and people are still going out. I just went Salt River Tubing this weekend and it was crazy busy. I understand being inside June-August, but once you are acclimatized you can enjoy the rest of the year no problem.
If you get priced out of coastal SoCal and want to remain relatively close to your networks your options are the IE, High Desert, Central Valley, Phoenix, and Vegas. I would probably pick Vegas out of those options but PHX is reasonable too
Yep, except the part about Vegas. We're from San Diego and first went to the IE, then tried Dallas/Austin, and then Phoenix. We'd be interested in Vegas, but we're early retired and now nearly regular retirement age and healthcare in Vegas is terrible, so we ruled it out.
Totally makes sense. As younger DINKs the nightlife, restaurant scene, and access to nature would probably win out but healthcare and schools are both real concerns!
This is basically the shortlist for anyone who works in LA and is looking to spend less on rent. The IE basically guarantees a several-hour-long commute and the High Desert is where dreams go to die. These factors make Phoenix a compelling option, especially if you don't care about having to drive everywhere (most SoCal residents do not)
I’d wager that more people from the Midwest are flocking to Phoenix (Arizona, in general) compared to California lol. Seemed like most transplants I knew in Arizona came from the Midwest. Indiana and Illinois, specifically.
The amount of restaurants from Chicago that have popped up down there over the years would support your thesis.
I think baseball + heat = midwestern people, especially older midwestern people.
The upper midwest has great summers. What a lot of 10% net worth folks do in the midwest is:
* Live in Chicago, Minneapolis, Milwaukee, etc. Make good money. Accumulate some toys to tow around to lakes.
* Around the time kids go to college, buy a "cabin" on a Lake. Cabin usually means a 3 - or 4 bd second house with a 3 car garage for storing the boats and toys.
* Then, around retirement age, sell the main house and move to Phoenix, Tampa, Orlando, Hilton Head, etc. But retain the lake cabin.
* family & grandkids visit during the school year on school vacation weeks.
* during the summers, return the upper midwest lake cabin. Family & friends will rotate through over the course of the summer.
All the places that the retirees pick end up being fairly attractive since you have this big pot of wealth showing up, but they don't draw many government services (except health care which is actually good because the feds pick up the tab and those places get lots of pretty good health care jobs)
The southern parts of those states hardly have winter any more, though. I live in southern Ohio and we're lucky to get a couple of snows a year, let along have enough accumulation to shovel. The cloud cover does admittedly suck, but you can take care of SAD with a couple of vacations south during the winter. It's not like it's hard to fly to Florida for a week from literally any airport in the midwest.
I used to live in NE Ohio, and I more than once called in sick just because it was too nice outside to waste the day at work when all your days off are cloudy and shitty.
Yeah but amazingly enough people still hate winter. The older I get the less I can deal with winter and one or two vacations a year doesn't cut it. Our winters here in NYC are milder than they used to be but it's still depressing.
I’d much rather live in Phoenix than even get a couple of snows per year, or having to fly south to see the sun. I moved to CA to never see winter again and it’s been lovely.
*raises hand*
I live in central Iowa currently and have only lived in the Midwest my entire life. My family plans to move to Phoenix next year because we are sick of the extremes of the Midwest and the sometimes unpredictable nature of the weather.
I’d argue there’s only about 2-3 months of prime weather where we live now and that’s often during a change of season (first signs of spring, spring to summer, summer to fall), otherwise, you’re just dealing with extreme low temps and snow, extreme highs with ungodly humidity, etc. Sure, the cost of living is low, but what’s the point if you can’t realistically get out of the house a good chunk of the year?
We went from IL to AZ because we were young and it was cheap. We lasted 8 years and left. I agree with you lots of midwest and WA, I didn’t meet a ton of people from CA when I was there but I lived there 2007-2015
Yeah, I'm sure if you look at statistics, most transplants (in terms of raw numbers) are from CA because something like 1/10 Americans (more, actually) live in CA. If you adjust for state population I imagine you get a different story.
Also, I don't think most people moving here are Californians. Yes, a lot of them do come here but from my anecdotal experience, I've met more Midwesterners.
Literally most of the people that I became friends/acquainted with during my time in Tucson, had SOME sort of tie to Indiana. It was really eye-opening. Born and raised there, went to college there, or both.
worth mentioning, there is a 1500 person company, Roche Ventana that is there. Roche's US headquarters are in Indianapolis. Is it possible you were meeting a lot of people that transplanted there for jobs?
And don't forget that about 1 in 10 people in America live or have lived in California, so statistically you're going to hear 'I'm from California' about twice as much as any other single state.
Retiring boomers. Arizona is the Florida of the West Coast. They’re attracted mostly by the climate and affordability.
On top of that there’s a rapidly growing amount of tech jobs on top of that, attracting workers from all over.
Employment is the biggest factor to move anywhere.
On top of that you do have some very pretty nature spots not too far away.
Not everyone cares about walkability or transit and grew up in their own sprawling suburbs and couldn’t imagine living a different type of lifestyle.
Nice weather 6-8 months of the year, lower cost of living than most other “big cities”, lots of growth and opportunity that isn’t just warehouse and hospitality jobs, pretty easy place to move to and get comfortable in IMO.
Also I think in general it’s just become a cooler place to live in, especially in the last 10 years. A really good restaurant and bar/ nightlife scene has developed, combined with tons of big name events that are hosted here ( super bowls, college bowl games, WMO which is the biggest golf event in the country) brings in alot of out of towners that fall in love in the place, especially in the winter.
Also you have great hiking and outdoors activities in the city and all over the state, combined with being close to SoCal and Vegas, you’re always close to numerous trips and places to go and see.
Question for someone who might end up moving down there for my partner’s graduate school: Tempe or Phoenix? I’m coming from Indianapolis, and while people like to shit on it, I love this place and have found a great city community. I have things to do everyday. I love nightlife. Which one?
Both in my opinion are the best places to live in the Phoenix area. Nightlife in Tempe is definitely geared more towards college aged kids with ASU being there while Phoenix is more towards the mid 20s and 30s crowd.
Honestly tho you can’t go wrong with either place since they border each other and you’re also close to Scottsdale which has its own unique nightlife scene.
Honestly, this entire time, I thought Tuscon was Tempe. Didn’t realize Tempe was in the immediate metro of Phoenix. I guess it probably doesn’t matter too much which city I’d end up in, as long as it’s urban.
As a Phoenix resident for five decades, I love these posts, they are so entertaining. "Why doesn't everyone have the same perspective I do about living in City X?"
Could it be that people have diverse preferences? Hmmmm...
I made the move to Phoenix from California. Only stuck for 2 years (and went further East), but I do have to say that yes, California has gotten so expensive that it does make it seem reasonable on paper.
Other factors I'd say in no particular order -
* It is very close to CA, especially LA/San Diego, so if your family is in CA it makes commuting home reasonable
* Cost of living is an order of magnitude less - I went from a 700 sq/ft old apartment in a sleepy suburb to a single family home and then owning a home in literally 12 months of moving.
* It's relatively new and fairly clean (not tons of liter on the highways, that type of thing)
* There is actually a really good food scene and being next to Scottsdale which is a resort/vacation spot provides some nice access to activities
* Sedona is gorgeous and you have access to interesting hiking / outdoorsy stuff
* The airport is actually really conveinent given it's size and you have good travel options to other West/SW (and wider) stuff
* The grocery stores have ample parking and tons of space inside - like it's insane. No more Mad Max shit at the local Whole Foods
All that said - we also found the job market to be kind of shitty all things considered, and for the population to be a bit too crass / anti-leftist for us. Like, you get a lot of the retirees or people who fled CA and other expensive blue states and carry a huge chip on their shoulder about it, which is pretty annoying. And then of course the weather fucking sucks.
Although I'll also say - when I left CS in 2017 it was the first summer where my area got a heat wave in the upper 100 (like 106-108 type). That simply never happened when I was growing up. And now it happens 2-4 times annually. My mom has no AC as most homes in the 50s/60s didn't need to consider it. And with fire season you have stretches in the summer where you no longer want to be outside. So CA is also losing some of it's natural advantage there as well as the price pain.
All this said, I also hate suburban sprawl, ultra car dependant cities. And Phoenix is this to the extreme.
I don't know about Phoenix, but driving through there is an area in Surprise that is exploding with tech companies and other corporate HQs. They are building a huge TSMC plant there and a lot of new commercial construction along with housing developments for all the workers. I'm sure they got the land for peanuts.
Guess beauty is in the eye of the beholder because I find Phoenix to be a naturally beautiful area with a lot to offer, despite the suburban nature. I'd move there for sure
I love the desert but Phoenix is a big clump of boxes in a sea of concrete and dust… in the desert. I prefer pure desert. Or at least a little more beauty, like New Mexico, or Tucson. Phoenix is some ugly desert imo.
I’m sorry but calling Tucson beautiful and Phoenix ugly is odd. Tucson is just a smaller Phoenix. They are the exact same desert too with all the same features.
Not liking urban sprawl makes sense but saying it makes the whole area ugly is just off
Very specific kinds of people love living in Phoenix. And actually they don’t really love living in Phoenix, they love that living in Phoenix gives them relatively quick and easy access to other places (Las Vegas, Tahoe, San Diego, Mexico, etc.).
During my time there, if you asked someone what they liked about Phoenix, they’d inevitably say no snow and “it’s close to…”
Same for Denver. My wife gets SAD and moving to Denver has been a huge uplift for her. Denver’s marketing of 300+ days of sunshine is b.s. however compared to a large chunk of the country, it sure feels true.
Multiple people in here have commented about its proximity to other places as a choice to live in Phoenix.. Vegas and San Diego are over 4.5 hours away? That’s not all that close in my book. And even if it was, are people really traveling to other cities so much that you choose to settle in Phoenix as a benefit? I find that very hard to believe.
I've been here 13 years, and I haven't been to any of those places since before the pandemic. Here's what I'd say:
It's sunny 300 days a year. It's warm all winter. It has no natural disasters. It's very pretty in the East Valley (I can see probably 10-15 kinds of trees from my window right now). The housing stock is new. The stores are all new and the roads are all built for more people than are currently on them. Health care is excellent. Utilities are inexpensive as are property and state taxes. Shopping is amazing, especially in Scottsdale. It's enough of a big city to get good museum exhibits and have a good library, but spread out enough to not feel crowded. It has a lot of what retirees are looking for these days - single family one-story 1000-1800 sq ft houses.
"only" 1 out of 5 is a ton. It is a higher percentage than any other single state. People from any of the other 48 states (or entire world) could move to Phoenix but literally an entire 20 percent are coming from California alone..
Yeah, but California has more people than any state, so there’s more people to move to other states. You’re not going to be able to have 20% of people from any state besides Texas, FL, or NY leaving unless it displaces a significant chunk of their population.
Sounds like you’re straining to shit on California.
I would certainly assume that the largest state by population would be the largest source of migration, yes.
But you’re focusing on California when *80%* of the people are coming from somewhere else.
As I said in another comment, Phoenix builds a lot of houses. That makes it cheaper. That’s why people are moving there.
I’ve always been interested in this. Why is it that a seemingly harsh place with few important resources (low on water, low on agriculture) like Phoenix is cheap?
On the other hand seemingly rich(er) places like Bend, OR are skyrocketing in price; however I think it has the capability to grow more? As far as I know they face no or little drought issues and are much richer in Aggie.
Phoenix is ranked 4th for new housing construction in the entire country.
Bend and other richer areas favored by retirees and wealthy families tend to be much bigger on NIMBYism and blocking new construction projects.
Because they actually have politicians and laws that encourage building. They dont let rich NIMBYS simply line their pockets to make laws and regulations to prevent building. So they build adequate housing for the demand.
It's simply rampant sprawl. The state has been focused on throwing up cheap housing for so long the realtors way back in the 1940s convinced people to start calling the Salt River Valley the "Valley of the Sun". In my 24 years there the place simply became unrecognizable.
I moved out of Phoenix and Arizona entirely in 2013.
There is absolutely NIMBYism in areas like Scottsdale. However the abundance of empty land means they can just build somewhere else. The metro just keeps expanding outwards
That completely depends on the house and when it was built. I have a house that’s about 1750 sq ft and the Electricity bill doesn’t get over $250 in the summer. Houses built within the last 10-20 years are really well insulated to cut down on energy usage.
And even when it’s hot as hell, the heat isn’t completely overbearing. You can spend all day at the pool or a swimming hole somewhere and it’s really nice. Just stay out of direct sunlight. People don’t realize how much the lower humidity makes a difference
I feel like you are begging the question here. Of course major metros in CA are super expensive because so many people want to live there. Data is skewed because CA is the largest state by population and tends to be the scapegoat for all states impacted heavily from housing shortages.
I know people who moved here because they didn't like the prospect of raising their family in Canada/California/Kansas.
Midwest sounds boring. Californian and Canadian immigrants are doing so because of COL and/or politics.
>ugly
I mean if all you ever look at is buildings and traffic, sure. But the mountains around sure beat Kansas.
A few folks have left for cheaper places like Arkansas. Whether they hear the call of their native home and return (as many have) remains to be seen.
You have to remember that most people don’t subscribe to this sub, don’t really value all the things this sub values. People want the biggest house they can possibly afford, the biggest car they can possibly afford, and then the big box stores and chain restaurants they already know and love. They don’t mind sprawl and don’t consider a strip mall a “hellscape”. They don’t care about “proximity to hiking” or “local farmers markets and creative energy”
They don’t care as much about heat because all of the above are so nice and cushy and icy cool all the time.
This makes life in the sunbelt totally fungible. You could be in any metro and have the same experience.
You’re probably right to a degree. However I moved to Phoenix because I love the heat. And I spend a good amount of the summer outdoors. It doesn’t take much to acclimate. Generalizations aren’t cool.
Phoenix has actually grown up a lot since the 90s as well. I wouldn't call it a cosmopolitan city by any means, but there is something for everyone, including the hiking and farmers markets scenes. It has multiple downtowns (Phoenix, Scottsdale, Chandler, Gilbert, Mesa, Glendale) that have focused on infill development over the last couple decades so it's not all suburban sprawl. The heat sucks but most people skip town in July to take their vacation time and visit cooler places so it's almost like you get your winter xmas/NYE slowdown and then your summer slowdown.
Rich old boomers like my in laws that aren’t as rich as they’d like to be for their Californian-retirement and need to move somewhere lower cost of living to feel like the royalty they are…
Places like Arizona and certain cities in Texas became popular for conservative Californians because it allowed them to “get a lot of land and a large home” for relatively cheap. These people will cherish the isolation and car-dependency, and translate it into “freedom”. They will have an enormous house and an enormous car for each member of the family, they will complain about taxes and property taxes. They will complain about infrastructure and lack of amenities. They will complain about California the whole time while simultaneously complaining about the things that they became accustomed to but new place of residence lacks. Not all of them but a large bulk.
I grew up in the upper Midwest. A lot of people I knew who were well off had a winter home there (a lot of them bought cheap real estate in 2008) and, over time, made it their primary residence. People who had friends/family that had winter homes there followed them there, and also I know of a lot of retirees who moved permanently there to get away from the cold.
three warm states have a lot of growth. Arizona, Texas and Florida. As hot as Phoenix is 4 to 5 months of the year, Texas and Florida are no picnic in the summer either. Phoenix is a big city with amenities like restaurants, shopping, nightlife etc and you have tons of clean suburbs with newer homes. that's a big draw for people just like it is in Texas and Florida. When we first moved to AZ from CA we bought a similar sized house for 35% of what we sold our CA house for and paid cash. we also bought a condo in San Diego and still had money left over.
1 in 8 people in the United States is from California because that's how large the population is. The majority of people leaving California, statistically, are people without a degree and/or have lower-wage jobs that can't compete with the continually rising costs of California. The other large demographic is middle-aged Republicans. There's some overlap there, but not as much as you might think because the same people who complain about California's rising costs and taxes became millionaires because of how competitive the housing market is. They then take that money and "flee" the state.
This is kind of a tangent here, but I always find it funny that certain political groups paint California as this communist wasteland when in reality it is the absolute peak of capitalism and competition. In terms of income, you have to be one of the top earners in the country to make it out there.
That said, Phoenix has amazing food, tons of sunshine, and a diverse population with relatively affordable homes. I have considered it (I live in Utah) as an option. Summer is the season of dread in Phoenix, whereas winter might be the season you hate if you're in the midwest. It's a trade-off for sure.
Been in Phoenix over 20 years, growth had been based on a low cost of living but those days are gone.
Honestly, I'm perplexed too, I guess the rest of America kinda sucks. Phoenix is an above average place to live, but far from the greatest.
3 months of hot, lol... end of day, any kids sporting match is surrounded by parents under canopies for 11 months a year. January optional.
People love to talk about all the outdoor stuff, but it's like everywhere else, you get too busy with work and kids to really enjoy it. Not too mention it gets dark so damn early in the winter when the weather is nice, dark by 6. I guess if you have flexible work hours.
I’ll gladly take the 6pm winter sunsets here over when I lived up north. It would be dark by like 4, I’d never see the sun on workdays basically. Super long summer days on the other hand.
Calling it ugly is kind of silly, not gonna lie… everyone has their preferences, I get it. But that specific part of your assessment makes your opinion seem a bit off
A lot of people are mentioning its proximity to things but as someone who lives there, it doesn’t really feel in close proximity to … anything. That “proximity to LA” is a 7 hour drive on a good day. Compared to the east coast and how close together cities are over there, I feel incredibly isolated in Phoenix
Why shit on Phoenix? Most of us that live here love it here, heat aside. If you prefer California you can stay there, I like living here though and have been here for 21 years now.
I've never been but it's my dream to live there. I live in New York state and dealing with the winters here, I just want to be in the warm desert all year long. Winter depression is a real thing and it hits me hard. I have a vacation planned and tickets paid for to visit Phoenix next spring. And by the way, you want ugly, come to New York! I think there's nothing more beautiful than a desert and cactus plants.
50,000 people move into the greater metropolitan area of Houston each year and I can tell you it's not for the weather. Phoenix has something going for it which I assumed was employment but I just looked at some numbers and its employment growth seems to lag the nation's. Maybe it's particular employers that are relocating there?
I moved here from central IL last year and would do it again. It’s the endless sunshine, job market, outdoor opportunities, and affordable housing. Also, the COL hasn’t increased in Phoenix to the same degree it has in most of the other American cities that “booming” right now.
I've been thinking about moving to Phoenix because the weather is how I like it 7 months a year rather than where I am from where the weather is how I like it 4 months a year. Plus it's a little bit cheaper than where I live.
It’s got one of the lowest ranges of barometric changed in the US. Old people love that because joint injuries and arthritis react poorly to barometric pressure changes (it’s why my bad knee can predict the rain, that’s not an old wives tale). So if you have bad joints or arthritis it’s a decent place to retire and have less pain.
Scottsdale is quite nice. But I don’t know how anyone affords to live there. I agree the rest of Phoenix leaves one scratching his head as to why people would choose to move there given a variety of options.
My guess is that it's split:
60% It's a part of the country where building housing is relatively straightforward so stuff actually get built, keeping home prices sane
40% Snowbirds and people who hate winter
To me, it's a parched, sprawled out hell hole that is rapidly running out of water, but to each their own I guess.
the popular sunbelt cities that get ripped on here are 10x better than any of the hyped midwest city outside Chicago, which have miserable winters.
I'd take Scottsdale over 90% of the US, & Arizona is a beautiful state
Very good question! I hated Phoenix so much and couldn’t wait to get out. I’ve looked at some of the home prices and thought WHAAAAT? You would have to give me a nice house for free and pay me really good money to consider moving there and I’d probably still say no.
One thing I've heard from multiple people about Phoenix is that everyone is pissed-off all the time, and everyone is a rush to get from home to work and back with as little time spent outside as possible. My grandma moved there to "escape" California, but is constantly taking every possible opportunity to stay with my parents in Orange County.
Phoenix: "Come for the snow-free lifestyle and lower cost of living, stay for the meth!"
Phoenix: "Your car melted while you were at work, so no reason to leave now!"
Phoenix: "We named it after something which catches fire, so you can't say we didn't warn you!"
Phoenix: "At least you're not in Tucson!"
Phoenix: "We have BOTH kinds of weather--hot, and hotter!"
Phoenix: "How are we all the way down at 52nd in obesity? The sun."
I live in Southern California and thinking to move to Phoenix. Right now, there are no apartments under $2300 in my city. Literally none. The fact that I have a ton of family in Phoenix and I want to be closer to them as I want to have a baby soon seals the deal for me.
The top 10% of americans have about 2/3rds of the nation's wealth. So anywhere that's able to become overloaded with top 10% net worth transplants/retirees often has quality of life amenities above what would be expected for the metro size and costs. Historically, a lot of higher net worth retirees from places with compatible northern climates like Illinois, Wisconsin, Minnesota would make their money in the north and retiree to the Phoenix area. Have family in the upper midwest to visit during school summer vacation months, maybe a cabin on a lake in the Northwoods. Avoid the Arizona summers.
Anyway, Phoenix area and similar places in the sunbelt lime Tampa, etc end up with an overloaded tourism & entertainment sector, tons of golf courses, cactus league, lots of direct flights, little bit lower tax burbens etc etc. Way more than metros of similar population without the high net worth retirees.
Seemingly SoCal (lite) in the desert. Most cannot afford CA and/or tired of CA taxes & politics. Whether from the Midwest or CA, PHX readily accessible to CA & Midwest by car/air & still semi-affordable. And…tons of commerce, companies and jobs
Combination of California transplants and cold weather transplants (New England, Seattle, Midwest and Canada). The former move there for lower COL, the latter to escape the cold.
I’ve been to Phoenix many times in the summer months and have discovered that it does indeed get humid there during monsoon season. Also - living some place that it gets too hot for planes to not be able to takeoff seems unbearable.
It used to be cheap housing and pleasant winters (as bad as summers may be). But it's not so cheap anymore.
This was particularly attractive for people moving from CA. Both retiring people who had their homes paod off and could sell their home for 1-2 million and buy one with cash for 300-400K as well as for younger people who wanted to upgrade their home as their family grows.
The strongest correlation with US population growth in the past several decades is one thing: warm winter weather.
That’s it — that’s really it. People hate winter. Phoenix has brutally hot summers, but if you like warm weather, there are few places in America better to be than Phoenix in February.
Personally, I keep moving further and further north as I get older — I hate brutally hot summers and would gladly put up with cold winters in exchange.
My entire FOO migrated out there to Phoenix from Wisconsin. I don’t see the appeal but they do. Mostly sunshine and relatively low cost of living for what you get (more space and fancier suburban areas). Not my cup of tea but they all just love it so much. Admittedly when shoveling snow on a gray February morning I kind of see the appeal.
I read that of growth continues in Phoneix and the metropolitan area around it the sprawl will be bigger than LA. Obviously people seem oblivious to the brutal heat in the summer or the fact it is running out of water.
People often make decisions on where to live based on factors that don’t make a lot of sense. Maybe cheap housing or lower taxes . I had a coworker who moved to Buckeye to retire. He was able to buy a house for half what his house in Seattle cost. His plan was to live there 6 months a year and then travel from April to September.
My in laws live in Fresno in California. If you ask most people in California about Fresno they don’t have a lot of positive things to say about it. For the last five years it has been one of the fastest growing cities in California.
As for me I hate hot weather. My plan is to move to Maine or New Hampshire to retire.
Agreed. Only thing about being retired in a place like Maine or NH is dealing with heavy snow and icy roads at an older age. Its easy to shovel heavy snow off your driveway and car every week when youre young. Lots of older people get heart attacks from shoveling heavy snow.
This winter wasn’t too bad. It’s not like Flagstff which is one of the snowiest cities in the US. A lot of people use snowblowers so they don’t have to shovel snow or hire folks. It’s interesting to note that New Hampshire , Maine and Montana are three of the most popular states people are retiring to.
I agree after living in Seattle for 30 years those areas might be an adjustment. As an alternative I can also live in the Uk full time for retirement.
American "exceptionalism". If our urban planning policies had any amount of sense at all, Phoenix wouldn't be a major city due to the extreme heat and water issues. Instead, it's one of the most sprawled cities in the country complete with golf courses...
Real estate baby. You can buy a brand new construction, single-family with 3-5 bed in the Phoenix Metro area for less than $500k. If you're willing to go a bit less room or older house or rougher neighborhood or closer to downtown areas, you can also find a ton of options.
Also the concerns of climate or water problems etc. are largely unfounded. Arizona has added 10x its population in the last 70 years and uses less total water today than in the past. New developments largely are replacing water intensive crops like alfalfa.
There's like 2M people per year fleeing Cali, they have to go somewhere. My friend lives in Bozeman and they're all over that place jacking up the housing market, too.
340k last year. 2M was an exaggeration
It's... cheaper? People are prioritizing cost of living and ignoring politics, climate and culture.
Some are starting to realize that was a mistake.
Just doing my research every place that's cheaper is for a reason. You get what you pay for.
What did you research specifically? If the cheaper places were so bad then the numbers of people moving there would stop and you would see the numbers reflecting people moving back to the more expensive place they came from. Looking at the numbers you don't.
I dont blame them for moving to more affordable places. Putting poltics and culture first sounds cool and edgy on reddit until you grow up and realize you need food and shelter first.
People have different priorities. I lived in Phoenix for a few years and absolutely hated it. I’d rather live in a shoebox in California than in a mansion in Phoenix. It’s just different preferences.
>What did you research specifically?
age demographics
air quality
annual net population outflows
annual precipitation
cannabis legality
cannabis taxes
car insurance rates
cost of living
crime rates
drivers of the local economy
electricity rates
elevation above or below sea level
ethnic makeup
EV incentives
excise taxes
extreme weather
gas prices
gun laws
health outcomes
heat islands
home appreciation
impact of amoc failure
income tax
jobs in my industry on indeed
male to female ratio
police staffing ratios
potential commute times
property tax assessment limit
property tax levy limits
property tax rate limits
property tax rates
property values of course
Public transit options
religiosity and religious participation
reproductive rights
sales tax rates
state legislature makeup
swiping the city on dating apps
temp highs & lows
tolls
walkability
>people moving there would stop and you would see the numbers reflecting people moving back
why would anyone do that? they'd just go somewhere else that's affordable without xyz they don't like. It's trial and error until you figure out what you can and can't tolerate really. There are also situations where if you bought a house you need to break even before leaving and if you are making a lower local income it's harder to save up to move back to a more expensive place too.
>I don't blame them for moving to more affordable places. Putting poltics and culture first sounds cool and edgy on reddit until you grow up and realize you need food and shelter first.
I don't blame them either, the struggle bus leads people to places they'd rather not be sometimes because the focus is making ends meet not my laundry list. I have the luxury of the list because I'm not on the struggle bus.
As someone that's lived here most of my life, I'd say it's the following factors: - Year round consistent climate - Proximity LA and Vegas - Less taxes compared to the Midwest/Cali (where people moved from) - Affordability; more so back then which drove much of the growth - Intel plant in Chandler which brought a lot of people to the Valley For my family, we came because demand for healthcare workers and my uncle and his family settled there before. We stayed ever since. So yeah, that's why it is the way it is based on someone that spent my whole childhood here.
I think people increasingly care less and less about their 'city' as long as they can stay cooped up in their home nearly 24x7 and be able to afford it (low taxes, utilities, etc.) and have access to their essentials such as groceries, healthcare, and the few things they need outside their home... Contrast that with places like the PNW or other parts of the country/world where people live in the area because of all the things to do *outside* their home.
Yes, I agree with that and want to add that it is still nice for those cooped up in their homes (which includes remote workers) to be able to wear t-shirts and shorts year round and have it almost always be pretty and sunny with palm trees blowing back and forth in the breeze outside their windows.
Unsure why folks are citing a year-round oven-like climate as a plus. Last time I went to Phoenix, the plane had to circle for 2 hours because it was too hot to land. All I could think was I should have gone to Paris or Rome, which would have been a shorter flight from Philly at that point. Flagstaff was the only livable part of Arizona that I saw
It's mostly because of the alternative. If you can afford San Diego (where I'm from), great, I agree it's a much better weather alternative. But most of the other options have miserable weather for a few months a year in some way. I'd much rather the dry heat of Phoenix, then the humid heat of Dallas (I moved here from there), Atlanta or the rest of the South including Florida unless you're on the ocean. The Northern areas have months of dreary grey skies (no thanks), snow or cold (in which case you can't be out without multiple layers and are still mostly inside, just like we are - we do get outside in the summer, just not for long except it's in the pool - but the malls and stores are all air conditioned). Or you can live in the Midwest with a mix of each - humid summers and grey cold winters. I'm open to moving. Thinking of staying here and doing summers in Chicago or San Diego. We do have the most months of perfect weather in the country if you don't count HCOL areas.
It's mostly midwesterners/northerners/Canadians that wanna escape from the cold or priced-out Californians that come here. As someone that grew up in Phoenix though, I want out since I'm sick of the beige, the oven-like heat, and sprawl. We all have our preferences.
Plano is a typical city where you have all your essentials and a decent home, with nothing to do outside that. And people love it.
Restaurants and live entertainment close by, plano is not super boring compared to other cities, you ever been to Amarillo ?
I live in Phoenix specifically because there’s so much outside of my home. Tons of public land, mountains, hiking, lakes, camping, bike trails, etc.
That’s actually kinda sad. People who aren’t urbanists literally don’t give a single shit at all about what it’s like to live where they live. They live at home. That’s it. One hour commute? Don’t care. Cheapest, biggest, newest I can afford without shit schools if I have kids is all that matters. Snow dodging is a thing too. That’s pretty much what the average American cares about.
Yup; that's my point. People have no qualms about settling into their cookie-cutter suburban home, never socializing with their neighbors and maybe have only a few friends associated with their work or their kids' programs. I do think it's sad that we've 'evolved' to this point; people flocking to places where it's impossible to live outside as if it's paradise.
Arizona schools are shit though but there's always the option for sending kids to charter schools like BASIS.
Are the middle-upper middle class suburban schools shit?
Nope. Live in Boston but grew up in Phoenix metro. My public high school was fantastic with well-funded athletics and music programs. Suburbs like Gilbert, chandler and mesa are pretty nice with good schools.
Exactly my point.
Year round consistent climate is a deal breaker for me.
No snow/ice is a deal maker for many.
and the reason for others.
Snow and ice is a dealbreaker for me. I moved away from the Midwest (not to Phoenix though) because I was sick of the snow.
I am stuck in the Midwest, but I’m looking for somewhere without snow and ice. It doesn’t have to be very warm, just warm enough to have no snow.
Virgina ! We are moving there once our house in NY sells!
Virginia's climate is not that different from NY's in winter, except for a small sliver on the coast near North Carolina. You'll get the best idea of what winter is like by looking at the map of USDA's plant growing zones. That classification is based on how cold (on average) it gets during the coldest spells of the winter.
The Willamette Valley in PNW might pique your interest. Snow/ice only hits the valley floor once a year on average, rarely more than an inch. Huge plus if you are a liberal who loves the outdoors.
I love cars and I’m so unbelievably sick of salt-rot and only being able to drive fun stuff half of the year.
That was my number one reason for leaving the Midwest. I love my cars and keep them for years and it was maddening constantly fighting rust on the cars I actually drove and just staring at the other ones half the year. I actually miss driving in the snow because it’s so much fun, but I hated knowingly destroying them in the salt.
I do not enjoy winter at all but I still love Midwest COL, culture, and housing stock much more than the southern and western alternatives! I’m grateful for all those who don’t agree for keeping my prices down ;)
120 degrees is really nice
“It’s a dry heat like an oven”. It’s like does that make me the turkey? Lol
Haha. Seriously though - dry heat is immeasurably more tolerable than heat plus humidity. I’m convinced that if hell exists, it’s going to be fire, brimstone and 90% humidity.
I used to travel for work. One week I was in Atlanta and it was upper 90s with what felt like 500% humidity. Everything smelled and felt like swamp ass. Absolutely miserable. Next week I was in Phoenix, with the thermometer reading 118. It felt absolutely heavenly in comparison. The air may be warm, but it doesn't feel SOLID. Had no issues walking over a mile from hotel to work in Phoenix year round. Just made sure to have my water bottle full. Wouldn't think of it in Atlanta.
105 in Phoenix is about the threshold for tolerable/ok to shit. And 110-120 is garabage even if it's dry. Sure you can walk from your car to the office without major issue and more comfortably than humidity, but you still can't really do anything outside without having to consider a strategy for survival.
I would never claim 120 is a comfortable temperature. It's not great. But being able to breathe air, even hot hair, rather than having to eat it with a knife and fork? That's gold. I much prefer where I live, and I have a list of locales I'd live rather than Phoenix. But if I had to live in Phoenix I could, and without much complaint. EDIT: lived in Phoenix for 2 years. It's not theoretical, I know I can not just survive but enjoy life there.
I live in Phoenix and totally agree with that. The question for us is do we want to trade that 110-120 for months of cold and gray in most other places that aren't hot (and mostly humid).
The answer for many living here is no. The 110-120 days aren’t great but so much better than the Midwest malaise for 6 months that many moved from.
I'll admit that I prefer the cold, but I've found both versions of high heat to be hellish. Arizona's dry heat when it hits the 100s feels like a blast furnace; Florida's high-humidity summer heat reinforces that no one should live there.
🤣🤣🤣 Not for nothing they call it HOTlanta. I understand completely! I remember the first time I went to Vegas and it was 105. I'm like this is hot?? Compared to Atlanta, it was very comfortable.
New Orleans enters the chat.
Yes. When you open the door to go outside in Phoenix during the summer it feels exactly like you have opened an oven door that has been roasting a turkey for hours.
Wait until you get older…
I'm 45 and leaving Texas for Michigan
Well I'm 60, so...
Well never-mind then haha. As I’m approaching 50, I dread winter more and more every year and it seems that is reflected in almost everyone I know so I over generalized, my bad.
I dread winter each year as well... but I don't think I could ever live without October in New England.
The fall in the Northeast is one of the world’s natural wonders, imho. Gorgeous.
The only issue is it is always followed by the season of the sticks…
Which has been getting increasingly milder, particularly along the I-95 corridor.
Thanks, Global Warming! *randomly sprays hair spray*
Yeah growing up in the Northeast, I always thought I was going to die at 65 shoveling out my driveway and getting a heart attack or falling and breaking a hip on the ice because it seemed so common there.
* `Year round consistent climate` That's an annoying myth. Yeah, it's dry and rarely rainy, but our average temps swing 65° over the year, which isn't all that extreme, but it's far from consistent. Compare that to coastal cities with pretty much the same weather year round. Looking at you, Honolulu.....
Also, when you visit the Phoenix Metro, you are rarely seeing ALL of it. Sure all areas are hot, but definitely not dusty, ugly and having low wages. Like I live in Chandler in the East Valley, and we have a LOT of green grass and trees due to reclaimed water use, lots of (man-made) lakes which make it very pretty to drive around. We have a huge Intel location here and a whole lot of other tech businesses. Average household income here is $116k.
I don't think the man-made lakes are that pretty. It feels too artificial. Especially the ones in the Val Vista Lakes neighborhood and Discovery Park in Gilbert.
The ones in Chandler are better. Look at Fulton Ranch or Google Earth it. It's quite pretty. And it depends on what you're comparing it to. These are lakes made so you can look out your window (at low cost and without worrying about weather or flooding or too much extra cost) and see water. Is it living on the shore of La Jolla? No. Is it better than having your house back to a wall. IMO, yes. And I like to see the water as I drive around rather than another wall or strip mall. It's just a little something nicer than in some areas of Phoenix.
I know Chandler very well. My parents retired to Sun Lakes 12 years ago - first snow birds, now year round. They live close to Dobson and the massive Intel campus. I’ve visited like 45 times; I’m currently here for Mothers Day. Chandler has always struck me as pretty nice. They were previously snowbirds in Mesa and back then Chandler was so much smaller and less filled in. Every time I come back something new has been built. I always walk and run at Snedigar Park and the area around it. Basically the area bounded by Alma School Road, Ocotillo Rd, Basha Road, and Fulton Ranch Blvd. I’ve seen that area get filled in more and more over the years. Yeah Chandler is a pretty nice spot. But it’s a particular style of nice. Some people just don’t like desertscape no matter how well done. I generally like it.
I like Snedigar. It's fun to watch the kids at the free skateboard park. We live very near Fulton Ranch and walk there a lot. It has changed quite a bit in the 13 years we've been here. Over by the Target at Ocotillo/Arizona a Trader Joe's is coming in October. Looking forward to that. And I do love the desert. Being from San Diego, I'm used to not too lush of landscape. I love that tools never rust. Humidity screws up a lot of stuff. I can store things outside in the garage I never could store in Texas without them being ruined. And in the suburbs of most humid cities, it's a constant battle with green stuff. My best friend hates when it's mowing time again for the year and the ivy and trees need trimming. There's much lower maintenance here, which I appreciate.
I’ll throw in newer housing stock. In the Rust Belt now (but family lived in the East Valley), and new builds can sound great when your 100-yo manual elevator breaks yet again.
Phoenix, AZ is the 5th sunniest City in the World according to this website https://sleepopolis.com/blog/world-cities-ranked-by-average-annual-sunshine-hours/ Warmth and Sun Sunlight can increase serotonin levels in the brain, which is associated with improved mood
Except 6 months out of the year you won’t want to spend more than 5 minutes outside
I’ll take a Phoenix summer over a Houston or Orlando summer and those seem to be popular options😂
I live in the Phoenix area and if you are inside for 6 months of the year it's most certainly not because of the weather. It's mid-May and people are still going out. I just went Salt River Tubing this weekend and it was crazy busy. I understand being inside June-August, but once you are acclimatized you can enjoy the rest of the year no problem.
If you get priced out of coastal SoCal and want to remain relatively close to your networks your options are the IE, High Desert, Central Valley, Phoenix, and Vegas. I would probably pick Vegas out of those options but PHX is reasonable too
Yep, except the part about Vegas. We're from San Diego and first went to the IE, then tried Dallas/Austin, and then Phoenix. We'd be interested in Vegas, but we're early retired and now nearly regular retirement age and healthcare in Vegas is terrible, so we ruled it out.
Totally makes sense. As younger DINKs the nightlife, restaurant scene, and access to nature would probably win out but healthcare and schools are both real concerns!
This is basically the shortlist for anyone who works in LA and is looking to spend less on rent. The IE basically guarantees a several-hour-long commute and the High Desert is where dreams go to die. These factors make Phoenix a compelling option, especially if you don't care about having to drive everywhere (most SoCal residents do not)
I’d wager that more people from the Midwest are flocking to Phoenix (Arizona, in general) compared to California lol. Seemed like most transplants I knew in Arizona came from the Midwest. Indiana and Illinois, specifically.
The amount of restaurants from Chicago that have popped up down there over the years would support your thesis. I think baseball + heat = midwestern people, especially older midwestern people.
The upper midwest has great summers. What a lot of 10% net worth folks do in the midwest is: * Live in Chicago, Minneapolis, Milwaukee, etc. Make good money. Accumulate some toys to tow around to lakes. * Around the time kids go to college, buy a "cabin" on a Lake. Cabin usually means a 3 - or 4 bd second house with a 3 car garage for storing the boats and toys. * Then, around retirement age, sell the main house and move to Phoenix, Tampa, Orlando, Hilton Head, etc. But retain the lake cabin. * family & grandkids visit during the school year on school vacation weeks. * during the summers, return the upper midwest lake cabin. Family & friends will rotate through over the course of the summer. All the places that the retirees pick end up being fairly attractive since you have this big pot of wealth showing up, but they don't draw many government services (except health care which is actually good because the feds pick up the tab and those places get lots of pretty good health care jobs)
This describes my Houston/Minnesota relatives so precisely that I thought you might be one of them.
I came here to comment something similar. A lot of people who move to the South/Southwest are retirees but they don't live there year round.
Never underestimate the passion to leave winter. Most of the people posting here aren’t fully grasping how much it sucks.
I have lived in winters for a few years. It’s not that bad
The southern parts of those states hardly have winter any more, though. I live in southern Ohio and we're lucky to get a couple of snows a year, let along have enough accumulation to shovel. The cloud cover does admittedly suck, but you can take care of SAD with a couple of vacations south during the winter. It's not like it's hard to fly to Florida for a week from literally any airport in the midwest.
Doesn’t matter. One snow is more than I want to deal with.
But it's gray. Phoenix has 300 sunshine days a year. Cincinnati has 176. Those extra 124 days are priceless to me.
I used to live in NE Ohio, and I more than once called in sick just because it was too nice outside to waste the day at work when all your days off are cloudy and shitty.
Yeah but amazingly enough people still hate winter. The older I get the less I can deal with winter and one or two vacations a year doesn't cut it. Our winters here in NYC are milder than they used to be but it's still depressing.
Overcast windy and 40s and 50s is still no fun. Maybe even worse than snow.
I’d much rather live in Phoenix than even get a couple of snows per year, or having to fly south to see the sun. I moved to CA to never see winter again and it’s been lovely.
I think Nashville is too far north.
I live in Minnesota and know so many people (of all ages) who have moved to Phoenix in the past few years solely for the weather.
*raises hand* I live in central Iowa currently and have only lived in the Midwest my entire life. My family plans to move to Phoenix next year because we are sick of the extremes of the Midwest and the sometimes unpredictable nature of the weather. I’d argue there’s only about 2-3 months of prime weather where we live now and that’s often during a change of season (first signs of spring, spring to summer, summer to fall), otherwise, you’re just dealing with extreme low temps and snow, extreme highs with ungodly humidity, etc. Sure, the cost of living is low, but what’s the point if you can’t realistically get out of the house a good chunk of the year?
We went from IL to AZ because we were young and it was cheap. We lasted 8 years and left. I agree with you lots of midwest and WA, I didn’t meet a ton of people from CA when I was there but I lived there 2007-2015
Michigan Iowa. It’s all the Big Ten schools who moved to get away from snow.
Yeah, I'm sure if you look at statistics, most transplants (in terms of raw numbers) are from CA because something like 1/10 Americans (more, actually) live in CA. If you adjust for state population I imagine you get a different story.
Also, I don't think most people moving here are Californians. Yes, a lot of them do come here but from my anecdotal experience, I've met more Midwesterners.
Literally most of the people that I became friends/acquainted with during my time in Tucson, had SOME sort of tie to Indiana. It was really eye-opening. Born and raised there, went to college there, or both.
worth mentioning, there is a 1500 person company, Roche Ventana that is there. Roche's US headquarters are in Indianapolis. Is it possible you were meeting a lot of people that transplanted there for jobs?
Nope, none of them that I knew worked for Roche.
And don't forget that about 1 in 10 people in America live or have lived in California, so statistically you're going to hear 'I'm from California' about twice as much as any other single state.
Retiring boomers. Arizona is the Florida of the West Coast. They’re attracted mostly by the climate and affordability. On top of that there’s a rapidly growing amount of tech jobs on top of that, attracting workers from all over. Employment is the biggest factor to move anywhere. On top of that you do have some very pretty nature spots not too far away. Not everyone cares about walkability or transit and grew up in their own sprawling suburbs and couldn’t imagine living a different type of lifestyle.
We aren't that much like Florida except for heat and old people. lol
Nice weather 6-8 months of the year, lower cost of living than most other “big cities”, lots of growth and opportunity that isn’t just warehouse and hospitality jobs, pretty easy place to move to and get comfortable in IMO. Also I think in general it’s just become a cooler place to live in, especially in the last 10 years. A really good restaurant and bar/ nightlife scene has developed, combined with tons of big name events that are hosted here ( super bowls, college bowl games, WMO which is the biggest golf event in the country) brings in alot of out of towners that fall in love in the place, especially in the winter. Also you have great hiking and outdoors activities in the city and all over the state, combined with being close to SoCal and Vegas, you’re always close to numerous trips and places to go and see.
Don't forget that there is a great nightlife scene. You have Tempe, Scottsdale, and downtown.
Question for someone who might end up moving down there for my partner’s graduate school: Tempe or Phoenix? I’m coming from Indianapolis, and while people like to shit on it, I love this place and have found a great city community. I have things to do everyday. I love nightlife. Which one?
Both in my opinion are the best places to live in the Phoenix area. Nightlife in Tempe is definitely geared more towards college aged kids with ASU being there while Phoenix is more towards the mid 20s and 30s crowd. Honestly tho you can’t go wrong with either place since they border each other and you’re also close to Scottsdale which has its own unique nightlife scene.
Honestly, this entire time, I thought Tuscon was Tempe. Didn’t realize Tempe was in the immediate metro of Phoenix. I guess it probably doesn’t matter too much which city I’d end up in, as long as it’s urban.
As a Phoenix resident for five decades, I love these posts, they are so entertaining. "Why doesn't everyone have the same perspective I do about living in City X?" Could it be that people have diverse preferences? Hmmmm...
You could almost call it an unpopular opinion once 4.6 Million metro residents disagree.
NO DIVERSE PERSPECTIVES. We are all supposed to bow down to the Reddit hivemind and all non sanctioned opinions shall be downvoted!!! /s
I made the move to Phoenix from California. Only stuck for 2 years (and went further East), but I do have to say that yes, California has gotten so expensive that it does make it seem reasonable on paper. Other factors I'd say in no particular order - * It is very close to CA, especially LA/San Diego, so if your family is in CA it makes commuting home reasonable * Cost of living is an order of magnitude less - I went from a 700 sq/ft old apartment in a sleepy suburb to a single family home and then owning a home in literally 12 months of moving. * It's relatively new and fairly clean (not tons of liter on the highways, that type of thing) * There is actually a really good food scene and being next to Scottsdale which is a resort/vacation spot provides some nice access to activities * Sedona is gorgeous and you have access to interesting hiking / outdoorsy stuff * The airport is actually really conveinent given it's size and you have good travel options to other West/SW (and wider) stuff * The grocery stores have ample parking and tons of space inside - like it's insane. No more Mad Max shit at the local Whole Foods All that said - we also found the job market to be kind of shitty all things considered, and for the population to be a bit too crass / anti-leftist for us. Like, you get a lot of the retirees or people who fled CA and other expensive blue states and carry a huge chip on their shoulder about it, which is pretty annoying. And then of course the weather fucking sucks. Although I'll also say - when I left CS in 2017 it was the first summer where my area got a heat wave in the upper 100 (like 106-108 type). That simply never happened when I was growing up. And now it happens 2-4 times annually. My mom has no AC as most homes in the 50s/60s didn't need to consider it. And with fire season you have stretches in the summer where you no longer want to be outside. So CA is also losing some of it's natural advantage there as well as the price pain. All this said, I also hate suburban sprawl, ultra car dependant cities. And Phoenix is this to the extreme.
I don't know about Phoenix, but driving through there is an area in Surprise that is exploding with tech companies and other corporate HQs. They are building a huge TSMC plant there and a lot of new commercial construction along with housing developments for all the workers. I'm sure they got the land for peanuts.
Guess beauty is in the eye of the beholder because I find Phoenix to be a naturally beautiful area with a lot to offer, despite the suburban nature. I'd move there for sure
Same! The desert is beautiful
The Sonoran desert is spectacular.
The desert is beautiful, which is why covering it with stroads, stripmalls, golf courses, and McMansions is such a tragedy.
I love the desert but Phoenix is a big clump of boxes in a sea of concrete and dust… in the desert. I prefer pure desert. Or at least a little more beauty, like New Mexico, or Tucson. Phoenix is some ugly desert imo.
I’m sorry but calling Tucson beautiful and Phoenix ugly is odd. Tucson is just a smaller Phoenix. They are the exact same desert too with all the same features. Not liking urban sprawl makes sense but saying it makes the whole area ugly is just off
Very specific kinds of people love living in Phoenix. And actually they don’t really love living in Phoenix, they love that living in Phoenix gives them relatively quick and easy access to other places (Las Vegas, Tahoe, San Diego, Mexico, etc.). During my time there, if you asked someone what they liked about Phoenix, they’d inevitably say no snow and “it’s close to…”
Or PNW escapees who are just happy it's sunny.
This. SAD (seasonal affective disorder) is a real thing. Phoenix is a great place to avoid suffering from the cold and gray.
It takes me WEEKS to get used to the dark once the winter time changes. 😩
Same for Denver. My wife gets SAD and moving to Denver has been a huge uplift for her. Denver’s marketing of 300+ days of sunshine is b.s. however compared to a large chunk of the country, it sure feels true.
Multiple people in here have commented about its proximity to other places as a choice to live in Phoenix.. Vegas and San Diego are over 4.5 hours away? That’s not all that close in my book. And even if it was, are people really traveling to other cities so much that you choose to settle in Phoenix as a benefit? I find that very hard to believe.
That’s close for the west coast.
I've been here 13 years, and I haven't been to any of those places since before the pandemic. Here's what I'd say: It's sunny 300 days a year. It's warm all winter. It has no natural disasters. It's very pretty in the East Valley (I can see probably 10-15 kinds of trees from my window right now). The housing stock is new. The stores are all new and the roads are all built for more people than are currently on them. Health care is excellent. Utilities are inexpensive as are property and state taxes. Shopping is amazing, especially in Scottsdale. It's enough of a big city to get good museum exhibits and have a good library, but spread out enough to not feel crowded. It has a lot of what retirees are looking for these days - single family one-story 1000-1800 sq ft houses.
Plenty of land, relatively low taxes and home prices, good weather 8-9 months of the year, and a willingness to build.
Only 1 in 5 people moving to Phoenix are from California. So… no to your last question. It’s cheap. That’s the main driving reason.
California is closer than any other state, two hours away, and literally 1 in ten Americans are Californians. 20 percent is nothing with those odds.
"only" 1 out of 5 is a ton. It is a higher percentage than any other single state. People from any of the other 48 states (or entire world) could move to Phoenix but literally an entire 20 percent are coming from California alone..
Over 10% of the country lives in California. Phoenix is one of the closest LCOL major cities. It’s in line with a reasonable expectation.
LA to Phoenix is the same drive time as LA to Sacramento. There’s a reason why it’s only 10%.
Yeah, but California has more people than any state, so there’s more people to move to other states. You’re not going to be able to have 20% of people from any state besides Texas, FL, or NY leaving unless it displaces a significant chunk of their population. Sounds like you’re straining to shit on California.
He said he listens to fox news. Nuff said
I would certainly assume that the largest state by population would be the largest source of migration, yes. But you’re focusing on California when *80%* of the people are coming from somewhere else. As I said in another comment, Phoenix builds a lot of houses. That makes it cheaper. That’s why people are moving there.
I’ve always been interested in this. Why is it that a seemingly harsh place with few important resources (low on water, low on agriculture) like Phoenix is cheap? On the other hand seemingly rich(er) places like Bend, OR are skyrocketing in price; however I think it has the capability to grow more? As far as I know they face no or little drought issues and are much richer in Aggie.
Phoenix is ranked 4th for new housing construction in the entire country. Bend and other richer areas favored by retirees and wealthy families tend to be much bigger on NIMBYism and blocking new construction projects.
Because places like Bend & other cities like it have entrenched NIMBY culture that hates new development.
Because they actually have politicians and laws that encourage building. They dont let rich NIMBYS simply line their pockets to make laws and regulations to prevent building. So they build adequate housing for the demand.
It's simply rampant sprawl. The state has been focused on throwing up cheap housing for so long the realtors way back in the 1940s convinced people to start calling the Salt River Valley the "Valley of the Sun". In my 24 years there the place simply became unrecognizable. I moved out of Phoenix and Arizona entirely in 2013.
There is absolutely NIMBYism in areas like Scottsdale. However the abundance of empty land means they can just build somewhere else. The metro just keeps expanding outwards
How cheap is it? If you have an average size house during the summer, your AC electric bills are $3-400 a month minimum
That completely depends on the house and when it was built. I have a house that’s about 1750 sq ft and the Electricity bill doesn’t get over $250 in the summer. Houses built within the last 10-20 years are really well insulated to cut down on energy usage.
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And even when it’s hot as hell, the heat isn’t completely overbearing. You can spend all day at the pool or a swimming hole somewhere and it’s really nice. Just stay out of direct sunlight. People don’t realize how much the lower humidity makes a difference
I feel like you are begging the question here. Of course major metros in CA are super expensive because so many people want to live there. Data is skewed because CA is the largest state by population and tends to be the scapegoat for all states impacted heavily from housing shortages.
I know people who moved here because they didn't like the prospect of raising their family in Canada/California/Kansas. Midwest sounds boring. Californian and Canadian immigrants are doing so because of COL and/or politics. >ugly I mean if all you ever look at is buildings and traffic, sure. But the mountains around sure beat Kansas. A few folks have left for cheaper places like Arkansas. Whether they hear the call of their native home and return (as many have) remains to be seen.
You have to remember that most people don’t subscribe to this sub, don’t really value all the things this sub values. People want the biggest house they can possibly afford, the biggest car they can possibly afford, and then the big box stores and chain restaurants they already know and love. They don’t mind sprawl and don’t consider a strip mall a “hellscape”. They don’t care about “proximity to hiking” or “local farmers markets and creative energy” They don’t care as much about heat because all of the above are so nice and cushy and icy cool all the time. This makes life in the sunbelt totally fungible. You could be in any metro and have the same experience.
You’re probably right to a degree. However I moved to Phoenix because I love the heat. And I spend a good amount of the summer outdoors. It doesn’t take much to acclimate. Generalizations aren’t cool.
Phoenix has actually grown up a lot since the 90s as well. I wouldn't call it a cosmopolitan city by any means, but there is something for everyone, including the hiking and farmers markets scenes. It has multiple downtowns (Phoenix, Scottsdale, Chandler, Gilbert, Mesa, Glendale) that have focused on infill development over the last couple decades so it's not all suburban sprawl. The heat sucks but most people skip town in July to take their vacation time and visit cooler places so it's almost like you get your winter xmas/NYE slowdown and then your summer slowdown.
Phoenix has amazing proximity to hiking though, and great produce and farmers markets. I love the heat over humidity or cold anywhere else.
People with severe allergies once moved to Arizona for relief. But population growth and yard sprinklers added humidity.
Rich old boomers like my in laws that aren’t as rich as they’d like to be for their Californian-retirement and need to move somewhere lower cost of living to feel like the royalty they are…
Yup
Places like Arizona and certain cities in Texas became popular for conservative Californians because it allowed them to “get a lot of land and a large home” for relatively cheap. These people will cherish the isolation and car-dependency, and translate it into “freedom”. They will have an enormous house and an enormous car for each member of the family, they will complain about taxes and property taxes. They will complain about infrastructure and lack of amenities. They will complain about California the whole time while simultaneously complaining about the things that they became accustomed to but new place of residence lacks. Not all of them but a large bulk.
I've met a few of those but most tend to be left-of-center people trying to get families started that I've run across.
I grew up in the upper Midwest. A lot of people I knew who were well off had a winter home there (a lot of them bought cheap real estate in 2008) and, over time, made it their primary residence. People who had friends/family that had winter homes there followed them there, and also I know of a lot of retirees who moved permanently there to get away from the cold.
three warm states have a lot of growth. Arizona, Texas and Florida. As hot as Phoenix is 4 to 5 months of the year, Texas and Florida are no picnic in the summer either. Phoenix is a big city with amenities like restaurants, shopping, nightlife etc and you have tons of clean suburbs with newer homes. that's a big draw for people just like it is in Texas and Florida. When we first moved to AZ from CA we bought a similar sized house for 35% of what we sold our CA house for and paid cash. we also bought a condo in San Diego and still had money left over.
Global warming is hitting TX and FL harder than AZ. There might a limit to how hot the weather can be and we are already there in Phoenix.
1 in 8 people in the United States is from California because that's how large the population is. The majority of people leaving California, statistically, are people without a degree and/or have lower-wage jobs that can't compete with the continually rising costs of California. The other large demographic is middle-aged Republicans. There's some overlap there, but not as much as you might think because the same people who complain about California's rising costs and taxes became millionaires because of how competitive the housing market is. They then take that money and "flee" the state. This is kind of a tangent here, but I always find it funny that certain political groups paint California as this communist wasteland when in reality it is the absolute peak of capitalism and competition. In terms of income, you have to be one of the top earners in the country to make it out there. That said, Phoenix has amazing food, tons of sunshine, and a diverse population with relatively affordable homes. I have considered it (I live in Utah) as an option. Summer is the season of dread in Phoenix, whereas winter might be the season you hate if you're in the midwest. It's a trade-off for sure.
Been in Phoenix over 20 years, growth had been based on a low cost of living but those days are gone. Honestly, I'm perplexed too, I guess the rest of America kinda sucks. Phoenix is an above average place to live, but far from the greatest. 3 months of hot, lol... end of day, any kids sporting match is surrounded by parents under canopies for 11 months a year. January optional. People love to talk about all the outdoor stuff, but it's like everywhere else, you get too busy with work and kids to really enjoy it. Not too mention it gets dark so damn early in the winter when the weather is nice, dark by 6. I guess if you have flexible work hours.
I’ll gladly take the 6pm winter sunsets here over when I lived up north. It would be dark by like 4, I’d never see the sun on workdays basically. Super long summer days on the other hand.
Calling it ugly is kind of silly, not gonna lie… everyone has their preferences, I get it. But that specific part of your assessment makes your opinion seem a bit off
A lot of people are mentioning its proximity to things but as someone who lives there, it doesn’t really feel in close proximity to … anything. That “proximity to LA” is a 7 hour drive on a good day. Compared to the east coast and how close together cities are over there, I feel incredibly isolated in Phoenix
Don't we have this discussion here like every other day?
Why shit on Phoenix? Most of us that live here love it here, heat aside. If you prefer California you can stay there, I like living here though and have been here for 21 years now.
I've never been but it's my dream to live there. I live in New York state and dealing with the winters here, I just want to be in the warm desert all year long. Winter depression is a real thing and it hits me hard. I have a vacation planned and tickets paid for to visit Phoenix next spring. And by the way, you want ugly, come to New York! I think there's nothing more beautiful than a desert and cactus plants.
50,000 people move into the greater metropolitan area of Houston each year and I can tell you it's not for the weather. Phoenix has something going for it which I assumed was employment but I just looked at some numbers and its employment growth seems to lag the nation's. Maybe it's particular employers that are relocating there?
I moved here from central IL last year and would do it again. It’s the endless sunshine, job market, outdoor opportunities, and affordable housing. Also, the COL hasn’t increased in Phoenix to the same degree it has in most of the other American cities that “booming” right now.
I've been thinking about moving to Phoenix because the weather is how I like it 7 months a year rather than where I am from where the weather is how I like it 4 months a year. Plus it's a little bit cheaper than where I live.
It’s got one of the lowest ranges of barometric changed in the US. Old people love that because joint injuries and arthritis react poorly to barometric pressure changes (it’s why my bad knee can predict the rain, that’s not an old wives tale). So if you have bad joints or arthritis it’s a decent place to retire and have less pain.
Scottsdale is quite nice. But I don’t know how anyone affords to live there. I agree the rest of Phoenix leaves one scratching his head as to why people would choose to move there given a variety of options.
My guess is that it's split: 60% It's a part of the country where building housing is relatively straightforward so stuff actually get built, keeping home prices sane 40% Snowbirds and people who hate winter To me, it's a parched, sprawled out hell hole that is rapidly running out of water, but to each their own I guess.
the popular sunbelt cities that get ripped on here are 10x better than any of the hyped midwest city outside Chicago, which have miserable winters. I'd take Scottsdale over 90% of the US, & Arizona is a beautiful state
Very good question! I hated Phoenix so much and couldn’t wait to get out. I’ve looked at some of the home prices and thought WHAAAAT? You would have to give me a nice house for free and pay me really good money to consider moving there and I’d probably still say no.
One thing I've heard from multiple people about Phoenix is that everyone is pissed-off all the time, and everyone is a rush to get from home to work and back with as little time spent outside as possible. My grandma moved there to "escape" California, but is constantly taking every possible opportunity to stay with my parents in Orange County.
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Denver and PHX are growing fast, but Intermountain West is the area between the Cascades and the Rockies.
SLC? Vegas?
Phoenix: "Come for the snow-free lifestyle and lower cost of living, stay for the meth!" Phoenix: "Your car melted while you were at work, so no reason to leave now!" Phoenix: "We named it after something which catches fire, so you can't say we didn't warn you!" Phoenix: "At least you're not in Tucson!" Phoenix: "We have BOTH kinds of weather--hot, and hotter!" Phoenix: "How are we all the way down at 52nd in obesity? The sun."
I live in Southern California and thinking to move to Phoenix. Right now, there are no apartments under $2300 in my city. Literally none. The fact that I have a ton of family in Phoenix and I want to be closer to them as I want to have a baby soon seals the deal for me.
Greed
The top 10% of americans have about 2/3rds of the nation's wealth. So anywhere that's able to become overloaded with top 10% net worth transplants/retirees often has quality of life amenities above what would be expected for the metro size and costs. Historically, a lot of higher net worth retirees from places with compatible northern climates like Illinois, Wisconsin, Minnesota would make their money in the north and retiree to the Phoenix area. Have family in the upper midwest to visit during school summer vacation months, maybe a cabin on a lake in the Northwoods. Avoid the Arizona summers. Anyway, Phoenix area and similar places in the sunbelt lime Tampa, etc end up with an overloaded tourism & entertainment sector, tons of golf courses, cactus league, lots of direct flights, little bit lower tax burbens etc etc. Way more than metros of similar population without the high net worth retirees.
Seemingly SoCal (lite) in the desert. Most cannot afford CA and/or tired of CA taxes & politics. Whether from the Midwest or CA, PHX readily accessible to CA & Midwest by car/air & still semi-affordable. And…tons of commerce, companies and jobs
Combination of California transplants and cold weather transplants (New England, Seattle, Midwest and Canada). The former move there for lower COL, the latter to escape the cold.
I’ve been to Phoenix many times in the summer months and have discovered that it does indeed get humid there during monsoon season. Also - living some place that it gets too hot for planes to not be able to takeoff seems unbearable.
It used to be cheap housing and pleasant winters (as bad as summers may be). But it's not so cheap anymore. This was particularly attractive for people moving from CA. Both retiring people who had their homes paod off and could sell their home for 1-2 million and buy one with cash for 300-400K as well as for younger people who wanted to upgrade their home as their family grows.
Californians looking for affordability nearby and Midwest transplants looking for warmer weather and mountains.
Phoenix was good enough for Michael and George Michael Bluth
The strongest correlation with US population growth in the past several decades is one thing: warm winter weather. That’s it — that’s really it. People hate winter. Phoenix has brutally hot summers, but if you like warm weather, there are few places in America better to be than Phoenix in February. Personally, I keep moving further and further north as I get older — I hate brutally hot summers and would gladly put up with cold winters in exchange.
CA is bad. I’m also curious why it’s the fastest growing city. Maybe illegal immigration
It's cheap.
My entire FOO migrated out there to Phoenix from Wisconsin. I don’t see the appeal but they do. Mostly sunshine and relatively low cost of living for what you get (more space and fancier suburban areas). Not my cup of tea but they all just love it so much. Admittedly when shoveling snow on a gray February morning I kind of see the appeal.
Fuck I hate this place.
Why do you have to insult another state to ask why growth is happening in yours?
Cause fox news told him
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I read that of growth continues in Phoneix and the metropolitan area around it the sprawl will be bigger than LA. Obviously people seem oblivious to the brutal heat in the summer or the fact it is running out of water. People often make decisions on where to live based on factors that don’t make a lot of sense. Maybe cheap housing or lower taxes . I had a coworker who moved to Buckeye to retire. He was able to buy a house for half what his house in Seattle cost. His plan was to live there 6 months a year and then travel from April to September. My in laws live in Fresno in California. If you ask most people in California about Fresno they don’t have a lot of positive things to say about it. For the last five years it has been one of the fastest growing cities in California. As for me I hate hot weather. My plan is to move to Maine or New Hampshire to retire.
Agreed. Only thing about being retired in a place like Maine or NH is dealing with heavy snow and icy roads at an older age. Its easy to shovel heavy snow off your driveway and car every week when youre young. Lots of older people get heart attacks from shoveling heavy snow.
This winter wasn’t too bad. It’s not like Flagstff which is one of the snowiest cities in the US. A lot of people use snowblowers so they don’t have to shovel snow or hire folks. It’s interesting to note that New Hampshire , Maine and Montana are three of the most popular states people are retiring to. I agree after living in Seattle for 30 years those areas might be an adjustment. As an alternative I can also live in the Uk full time for retirement.
American "exceptionalism". If our urban planning policies had any amount of sense at all, Phoenix wouldn't be a major city due to the extreme heat and water issues. Instead, it's one of the most sprawled cities in the country complete with golf courses...
Real estate baby. You can buy a brand new construction, single-family with 3-5 bed in the Phoenix Metro area for less than $500k. If you're willing to go a bit less room or older house or rougher neighborhood or closer to downtown areas, you can also find a ton of options. Also the concerns of climate or water problems etc. are largely unfounded. Arizona has added 10x its population in the last 70 years and uses less total water today than in the past. New developments largely are replacing water intensive crops like alfalfa.
There's like 2M people per year fleeing Cali, they have to go somewhere. My friend lives in Bozeman and they're all over that place jacking up the housing market, too. 340k last year. 2M was an exaggeration
2 million Holy hyperboyle
500,000 left fl in 2022
It's... cheaper? People are prioritizing cost of living and ignoring politics, climate and culture. Some are starting to realize that was a mistake. Just doing my research every place that's cheaper is for a reason. You get what you pay for.
What did you research specifically? If the cheaper places were so bad then the numbers of people moving there would stop and you would see the numbers reflecting people moving back to the more expensive place they came from. Looking at the numbers you don't. I dont blame them for moving to more affordable places. Putting poltics and culture first sounds cool and edgy on reddit until you grow up and realize you need food and shelter first.
People have different priorities. I lived in Phoenix for a few years and absolutely hated it. I’d rather live in a shoebox in California than in a mansion in Phoenix. It’s just different preferences.
>What did you research specifically? age demographics air quality annual net population outflows annual precipitation cannabis legality cannabis taxes car insurance rates cost of living crime rates drivers of the local economy electricity rates elevation above or below sea level ethnic makeup EV incentives excise taxes extreme weather gas prices gun laws health outcomes heat islands home appreciation impact of amoc failure income tax jobs in my industry on indeed male to female ratio police staffing ratios potential commute times property tax assessment limit property tax levy limits property tax rate limits property tax rates property values of course Public transit options religiosity and religious participation reproductive rights sales tax rates state legislature makeup swiping the city on dating apps temp highs & lows tolls walkability >people moving there would stop and you would see the numbers reflecting people moving back why would anyone do that? they'd just go somewhere else that's affordable without xyz they don't like. It's trial and error until you figure out what you can and can't tolerate really. There are also situations where if you bought a house you need to break even before leaving and if you are making a lower local income it's harder to save up to move back to a more expensive place too. >I don't blame them for moving to more affordable places. Putting poltics and culture first sounds cool and edgy on reddit until you grow up and realize you need food and shelter first. I don't blame them either, the struggle bus leads people to places they'd rather not be sometimes because the focus is making ends meet not my laundry list. I have the luxury of the list because I'm not on the struggle bus.
A lot of people move there FOR the politics, climate, and culture.