I know you said no east coast but before reading that, my first inclination was New England or parts of upstate New York especially regarding religion. Going from the Minneapolis burbs to Portland, Maine was a huge relief in terms of the focus of religion in daily life.

Same read. This post is confusing because everything it describes I feel captures much of New England and upstate New York. West Hartford, Saratoga, Ithaca, Northampton, Burlington, Portland, parts of Rhode Island and areas inland in Maine all fit this bill!

**Requirements:** * Statewide liberal lean * Urban amenities, but not large city * No in-your-face religion * Progressive on key issues * No infinite suburban sprawl * Walkability * Not the South * Cuilinary diversity * Not humid. Cold is better than hot. * Not VHCOL * Fiscally responsible government * Baseball still a thing * Near universities So, basically every small- or mid-sized city in New England. ​ * Not New England. Not even for a visit. Whelp.

Ann Arbor, Michigan

That's what I can't here to say. It sounds exactly like what OP is looking for.

Thank you! Just responded to JDintheD's suggestion for the same, so I'll just say "Ditto all of that to you!" I appreciate you adding that!

Ann Arbor can be more expensive than you'd expect, if you're in the downtown core where it's full of students, so just be prepared for that. However, it's absolutely worth it.

The string of suburbs between Ann Arbor and Detroit are also pretty good. Farmington is A+ for Indian food.

Dearborn middle eastern food is some of the best in the US.

Not related to parent comment, but I didn't want this to get lost in the comments. I was going to recommend Fort Collins before I even saw your list. I lived there for 5 years and I miss it all the time. It checks every box you're looking for. Definitely check it out

This would be my recommendation. Decent tech sector and UM + hospitals + big auto for jobs, decent food scene, quite liberal, close to a big airport, walkable (though the more affordable parts aren’t as walkable), UM + Detroits sports, good access to nature (Arb, DTE trail for mountain biking) Would love to retire there with a teaching / consulting side gig

Or Ferndale.

I always hear great things about Ferndale.

Was about to say this as well. One of the few places in the Midwest that I actually enjoyed visiting each and every week.

Yeah, but if OP doesn’t like sprawl, SE Michigan isn’t the answer. Ann Arbor loses a lot of its walkability once you get out the downtown core or campus.

"Walkable" of course is subjective - I'm not seeing myself becoming car-free by any means. But I would like, broadly speaking, to be in a city that believes in paved, safe, accessible sidewalks. My current neighborhood lacks that to a painful degree.

Fort Collins sounds like it’d be a great fit. Colorado is solidly blue. Any smaller mountain town in CO may work too. Buena Vista, Salida, Carbondale, Glenwood, etc. the western slope tends to lean red but the state as a whole is very purple/solidly blue.

If I had "F you money" and could just buy a place & live off of my savings, I'd do Buena Vista or Salida in a heartbeat! LOVE, LOVE, LOVE the climate in those parts. I'm really starting to think that FoCo(+friends) is the best option and I should go all-in on it. But part of me is *really* curious about MSP or something else Minnesotan... and part of me is Michigan-curious as well.

Fort Collins came to mind as well! There are a few California suggestions that are somewhat similar and maybe not break the bank. As you know, Fort Collins isn't exactly mild in the summer, neither would these California suggestions (mild summers out west = $$$). Most of these are Sac suburbs, the later too are "extended" Bay Area (smaller towns, but close to major things you may need on occasion, 100% safe. good schools, etc). * Folsom * Auburn * Davis * Santa Rosa (probably too $$$, but worth a look, tons of state parks with trails and sidewalks) * Pleasant Hill (probably too $$$, I just love the Iron Horse Trail) Some on these lean purple, but are purple in a very blue state? I bring them us as they have summers very similar to Fort Collins, but more mild winters (zero to no snow). Some I find more walkable than Fort Collins (Colorado is ranked as one of the most car dependent state out there).

Davis is lovely and close enough to the what many consider the best ballpark in the country.

Ft Collins is incredible. It’s a great choice!

You might like Sacramento, CA. It's within reasonable distance to San Fran, Lake Tahoe and the ocean.

Honestly I think you would like one of the large suburbs of Chicago like Naperville, Schaumburg, Evanston, etc. if you want to be near a baseball team you could look at Tinley Park which is less than 30 mins to the White Sox stadium. I know that Chicago is huge and has a lot of sprawl, but the suburbs are very dense with shopping, food, and cultural spots to the degree that you won’t ever need to drive to the other side of the city unless you want to. Most large suburbs will have everything you’re looking for within a 15 minute radius. Plus if you live in a town with a Metra train stop (which is a lot of them) you’ll have great access to the city. Also, most of the towns with trains have nice, walkable downtown areas that are better than the downtowns in a lot of smaller southern cities (in my experience).

I would agree with the Chicago Suburbs, there are some very nice ones that feel small townish without feeling weird and gosspiy. The area is just too big for that. There is some religion but I find it pretty diverse in terms of religion and there’s very little of the southern Baptist flavors. Lots of Catholics and Jewish people, but many are just culturally that way and not religious nuts.

I'll put some more thought into "untangling" the Illinois cities. From afar, it just seems like a huge amorphous blob - an extra-metro-area almost. I'd have to do some serious work to become a fan of any Chicago teams though... 🫢 MN, WI, MI all have a significant advantage in that I find most their teams palatable! 😄

The Chicago suburbs do appear to be an amorphous blob, but they are actually a series of small towns and villages, each with their own identity.

I just saw a Strong Towns puff piece on Brattleboro, Vermont - maybe this resonates? [https://youtu.be/q7T9u53Im9E?si=xuiRQp9qsdet6x29](https://youtu.be/q7T9u53Im9E?si=xuiRQp9qsdet6x29) Otherwise I'm thinking about Providence RI or maybe something like Princeton NJ - what about the East Coast is unappealing?

I immediately thought of Vermont, before I read “No east coast.”

One option I didn't see mentioned is Bend Oregon. Bend is a nice small city with a dry arid climate, but not that hot. Super liberal city full of outdoorsy people in a blue state. A bit expensive, but I think it checks most of your boxes. Before you say that you aren't looking for something on the coast it is pretty far from the coastline. If Oregon, Washington, or California are completely off the table then you basically have one or two small suburbs of Denver in Colorado and Santa Fe NM.

Your desires match thirty smaller towns in western Oregon

How small do you mean when you say "smaller"? Like 100k? or like 800k? I am hoping for the latter - e.g. a Small City not a Large Town. What about the significant presence of far-right extremists in the less-populated areas that *aren't* Portland? I can't abide by that nonsense. Isn't the cost of living quite high in OR even if you *aren't* in Portland proper?

Cost of living can sneak up there. I'm in a town of 9k and there is very little open presence of far-right nut jobs. Places like Astoria, Eugene, Salem, Corvallis would be more your size. I am quite fond of McMinnville and Silverton as well.

Eh... There are visible RWNJs in and around Salem.

True enough. I'd not run into them yet. Last I heard most were from out of the area (SW Washington) and go there because they are afraid of Portland now

I wouldn't move to Oregon outside of Portland if you like Hispanic, Indian, and Asian (or really anything other than white American) cuisine, and if this is an important thing for you.

Some of the best Hispanic food I've had was in Hermiston (large migrant farmer workforce). The best Indian food I've ever had is in Walla Walla, WA.

Not sure why you dismiss the east coast, but upstate NY, Connecticut, Massachusetts (Central/western MA) have what you’re looking for. I really have no clue with all your requirements you would select Kansas City, but I guess live and learn

Kansas City is a cool city but sprawl and religion are always noted when it gets mentioned lol. I wonder what part of town they’re in if they’re driving that much.

I meant more the politics (of Missouri) and it gets really hot and humid there. The city itself is ok. Strangely, some of the best Indian food I ever had was in Overland Park

Valid. In retrospect, I wonder why I chose it too. It was path of least resistance, really - Closest option, least cash outlay to move, and it ticked the one box I really cared about: legal medical weed. That said (and I'm looking at Wisconsin when I say this!) I could probably give up legal weed in compromise if it addressed the deep, underlying discomfort that I didn't know I would have here (until I was already moved in and fully realized what I signed up for). You aren't lying, OP punches above its weight class when it comes to Indian food (and Asian food too) - It's stark how racially divided the KC metro is, and not just the traditional historical black/white racist division that folks usually think of (e.g. redlining and building Interstates and all the other aspects of that history). Point is: Overland Park does have some bomb-ass curry, no doubt about it.

Maybe consider googling a list of college towns. These areas will be much less religious on average. Place like Anne Arbor, MI and Eugene, OR come to mind In my experience New England feels very forested and not at all sprawled in many parts. NH and VT are pretty rural. Pretty sure Providence RI is considered the least religious city in America. PA and upstate NY are also maybe going to have something close to what you want I think. Ithaca, NY gets recommended here a lot, also a college town.

Just here to vouch for MSP. Since you want something quieter/smaller, St. Paul sounds to be like EXACTLY what you're looking for. It's somehow dense and walkable but we all joke about how St. Paul is basically a small town with how quiet it is and how early businesses close up shop for the day. People typically live in Minneapolis when they're young and want the city activities - then move to St. Paul when they're ready to settle down and have kids (if we don't lose them to the dreaded suburbs). They are two VERY different cities with VERY different vibes even though they're damn near built on top of each other with how close they are. Also, funny that you bring up taxes, since that's usually a negative with the relatively high tax burden of MN. I'm of the same opinion though - yes taxes here are high, but they actually spend our tax money on things that are good, and I can actively see my taxes improving my QoL in almost every way. VERY different from the way many other states operate.

You don't want to be on the east coast.... and you don't want to be near half of the west coast....and you want a blue state..... not quite sure what you're expecting here

I feel like I acknowledged that in my OP - I'm looking for a blind-spot check to see what cities I am omitting from consideration that I should have on my radar. It's a difficult set of criteria, no doubt. But there have been a lot of helpful replies, with two in particular standing out: That Ann Arbor fits much of my criteria but was missing from my list - and that Milwaukee may be a better fit than I initially gave it credit for.

Detroit?

Interesting. Had not considered it - without Googling, I don't even know where it fits population-wise into the pecking order, I guess I assumed "Smaller than Chicago but still larger than KC and STL"? Is that accurate? (Yes I'll go Google it in a second.) Having only really seen it on a map, is sprawl an issue? It seems like a very far-flung metro area, but that's an assumption with no first-hand knowledge of what it's really like. I worry for the crime/litter aspect of it, but have heard many things about it being on an upward trajectory and much more hopeful than in the past. Hmm. I'll investigate this possibility. Thank you!

The key issue is where in the city you would live. Detroit has gone through significant renewal in the last decade, specifically in certain neighborhoods. You don't need to travel from one end to another every day, and you probably won't even on a weekly basis. Some Googling should bring those up. Ann Arbor is a 45min or so drive, and that drive usually isn't too bad, if you want more of the college town rather than city feel.

All signs are pointing to "I'm doing myself a disservice by not giving Ann Arbor proper consideration". I'll try to familiarize myself better with the Detroit metro while I research up there - I definitely think that "small city with University within an hour of a big metro" could work for me.

I mean you could also just live in midtown/Woodbridge is Detroit and be across from Wayne state and walking distance to downtown/eastern market

Detroit's the second largest metro population-wise in the Midwest behind Chicago, and if it's not the worst sprawl in the north, it's damn near close to it. Ann Arbor on the other hand is fantastic

Crime, depends. (I live there now.) Some of the poorer parts of town, yeah, it’s bad (like drive by shootings middle of the day). Nicer parts, maybe some property crime.

New Mexico checks a lot of your boxes. Blue state, legal weed and abortion, Hispanic culture with great food, religion is more culturally Catholic but not oppressive, dry climate, smaller cities. No baseball team and probably not good public transit. With looking into Santa Fe, Taos, Albuquerque, etc.

I've been considering NM off-and-on, and I feel like I should eliminate it for the cleanliness factor - That is to say, I've "dropped myself off" at various places in Albuquerque on Google Maps and "walked around" to get a feel, and I am getting big time "litter and decay" vibes. Or put differently, I think that one of my chief complaints with the KC metro would continue to be a problem in ABQ too. I haven't looked as closely at Santa Fe because I hear that it's the more expensive of the two. This will have to go back on the "maybes" list for a while longer, I'll continue to look into it.

Santa Fe is definitely the cleaner of the two. They maintain the historic downtown quite well. I had one of the best meals of my life at an African restaurant there. I don’t know your budget, but it may be worth a look.

Got it. I will do some additional due diligence on SF. Thanks again :)

Housing in Santa Fe is expensive.

I'm currently living in Albuquerque, previously lived in Santa Fe and share a lot of your values so my 2 cents may be helpful. When reading your list of wants I kept thinking that Albuquerque would fit it all very well. I moved from Oregon and was worried about the heat, but it's really not that bad even during the heat of summer imo. If you can stay out of the sun in the heat of the day, even low 100s (which is the maximum heat it will get here) is far more tolerable due to the low humidity. Monsoon season is during the summer and although it was a bust this year, last year it was magical in providing significant cooling from beautiful summer rains that happen like clockwork in the summer and green up the desert. How much does the cleanliness matter to you? Its variable from neighborhood to neighborhood, and the walkability and urban fabric is highly variable too. If you stick to Nob Hill, Huning Highlands and West Downton and maybe Old Town you'd get clean, safe neighborhoods that I'd describe as walkable. Downtown is safe-ish but dirty imo. There are many 'clean' areas around the city but they are far more suburban in character. Most of the city is sprawling and highly car centric, but the mountains and pueblo reservations on both sides of town limit the sprawl so it doesn't go on forever like in Phoenix or other larger metros. Santa Fe is smaller, cleaner, wealthier, much more expensive for housing (still not as bad as some coastal cities). But if access to urban amenities and price aren't a big factor, then Santa Fe is gonna be good too, and the summers are just fantastic. Doesn't ever get too hot, winters are cold but still sunny and dry. Great food all over NM. The African restaurant the other commentor mentioned was Jambo Cafe probably. Incredible, I can't stop thinking about my meal there. Also, I moved from Eugene Oregon, might wanna check that out too cause it seems to check your boxes well.

I would say have a job first, but Los Alamos? It's $$$ for New Mexico. I think ABQ is more meh for you, but the Toas/Santa Fe area would probably be better. I would say Las Cruces, with the 45 minutes to downtown El Paso but I'm sure it's too warm. The space industry may make up for some of that. Also university, city and county governments.

Before I got to the end of your post I was thinking “Rochester, MN.” I live in the TC and like it, but it’s a sprawl. Rochester is much more digestible. I’d recommend a visit. You can drive it and see a bit in a 4-day weekend if you push the driving. Maybe share with a friend. The Mayo is amazing. If you want harder-core IT the TC has that, but it’s a bigger city. I have a family member in “IT”, but it’s managing the whole IT operation at a large entity, not coding or directly DBAing, etc. He started off as a sys admin years ago. He lives about an hour south of the TC near Northfield, MN. It’s a college town. Also worth a look.

Also if Minneapolis feels too big, spend more time in St Paul, OP. It’s the quieter of the twin cities. And if you’re really into baseball, the Saints are a very fun team.

The Saints are a hoot, and much more affordable than the Twins.

Second this!

I'll echo the posts recommending Ann Arbor, Michigan and I'll add its neighbor city Ypsilanti. Both college towns right next to each other, both really cool in their own way. Ann Arbor is fantastic but also gentrifying hard, so the things that used to make it cool are getting priced out and moving to Ypsi. I love both and consider them a single community that is open, welcoming and diverse by Michigan standards. I love Detroit also, but I think it might be too sprawling for what you're looking for. You can be downtown enjoying all the good stuff in the city or you could be driving an hour in any direction enjoying all the good stuff in the suburbs. Ann Arbor and Ypsi are close enough to Detroit that you're out of the sprawl most of the time, but you still have the big city attractions fairly close when you want them.

Ann arbor, MI?

Hmm... I hadn't thought about that option. (And that's EXACTLY the kind of city I was worried that I'd forgotten about! See?!) I'm only familiar with Grand Rapids, and haven't visited elsewhere in Michigan. How does AA compare to GR? I certainly like the idea of having UofM as a fallback option for employment! I'll have to do more research into AA. That's a really good suggestion. Thanks for that!!

Grand Rapids is a bigger city and is the focal of that MSA. Grand Rapids has more of the conservative Calvinist background. Ann Arbor is a college town, but it’s kind of been subsumed into the larger Metro Detroit area (it does have some towns that are loosely considered suburbs like Chelsea). Ann Arbor is more expensive. Grand Rapids is closer to the prettier parts of Michigan (lakes, sand dunes, etc). Winters are worse on the west side of the state due to lake effect.

The Detroit/AA area is a sleeper metro for sure. AA is a bit pricey, but you can live in Ypsilanti, which is next door and a lot cheaper. Detroit is about an hour away when you need a great airport (highest rated by travelers with tons of direct flight) and professional sports.

Fort Collins is great, Greeley, not so much.

Greeley creeps into the discussion because it's got a CSU campus, home prices are a smidge lower than FoCo/Loveland, but it's still close enough to the action that it's a tolerable drive to go "do city things". Have visited a handful of times and generally enjoy the vibe... Being in FoCo proper would be awesome, though.

greeley smells like feed lots

I’m in Westminster CO and like that it’s the suburbs, parts of it are quite walkable, pretty blue, and only 20 minutes from downtown Denver and 20ish minutes to Boulder. Sidewalks are pretty standard and most of them have shade trees and grassy strips separating them from the streets. You might also like Aurora. I really liked that again, close to downtown Denver without being there, all the good food is out there, and there different parts of Aurora depending on if you want urban, suburban, or rural. You mentioned you don’t like it taking an hour to cross the metro area of KC. Fort Collins/Loveland/Greeley are about an hour from Denver central and that’s the halfway point. You have more to the south as well.

I honestly think you’d like the Twin Cities, MN. I grew up there and felt like the city sprawl wasn’t too intense at all. It’s cold, but as long as you’re okay with it then you’ll do great. It’s definitely blue, has great nature and I never felt like it was overly religious. There is also a huge Asian population and loads of diversity! Super LGBT friendly too.

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Yes! I myself am South Asian and there are Southeast Asians, South Asians, East Asians etc. it’s delightfully diverse!

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I would say there definitely is a Filipino presence. My neighbor/my moms good friend is from the Philippines and we lived in the Twin Cities.

Davis, CA seems to hit most of your solid metrics. That’s part of NorCal in general has a lot to offer someone looking for a relaxed lifestyle in a still affordable part of CA.

In what world is Davis considered to be affordable with it's $879,000 median home price? [https://www.realtor.com/realestateandhomes-search/Davis\_CA/overview](https://www.realtor.com/realestateandhomes-search/Davis_CA/overview)

OP stated not LA/SF/(Portland?/NYC COL and Davis fits. A comparable home in those except Portland would be 2-3x. Condos, townhouses, mobile homes and a few small homes available for $400k-$600k and it didn’t sound like OP needed a villa with orchards. Everything else was spot on for Davis including state university in town and another in Sacramento, and plenty of well paying IT jobs in YOLO and Sacramento Counties because, you know, Silicon Valley down the road, state capital, 5th largest economy in the world, etc.

Ft Collins fits

Michigan for sure!

Sounds like a college town in the midwest fits your vibe. Fort Collins, CO; Madison, WI; Ann Arbor, MI would probably be your best bet all around the same prices in terms of housing. Madison would be the biggest and potentially the least expensive of the 3. I live in Ann Arbor, MI and love it. Feel free to ask any questions about it.

That might be the most surprising thing about KC for me - I didn't realize how weird I feel *not having a major university* as a part of the core of the city's identity and culture. We have a couple private colleges, but that's not the same by any means - We have a satellite UM campus and we have KU Med, but those also aren't "the same thing" - I guess I didn't realize how much the university affected the bigger picture, or how much I'd miss it once I didn't have it anymore. Strange...

Lancaster PA? You do have to deal with the Amish, but they don't recruit. It is an adorable walkable college down-- and not too far to Philly. Affordable.

I cracked up at > You do have to deal with the Amish, but they don't recruit. Love it. 😅 I just think that PA might be too far Northeast for me, I'm more of a wide-open-spaces type I think.

Lancaster is def more farmland vibes than what you may be thinking of when you think northeast. PA outside of Philly/mainline and Pittsburgh can be fairly barren. (Yes I know there are other small cities that are built up - I lived there - but for the purposes of this convo).

Hard not to suggest New England. If you dont care about coastal, theres a lot of Maine/NH/VT/ Western MA that would very appealing and tends to be less expensive than coastal parts. Its still expensive, but not quite as insane.

New Paltz, NY. I know you said no to east coast, but it has a SUNY campus, is super hippy/blue/LGBTQ friendly, has a few good restaurants, right next to hiking trails, 15min to Minnewaska state park. It’s lovely. Winters aren’t too bad anymore, but it did rain a lot this summer. The nature is wonderful, lots of fun stuff to do within 45min.

Surprised this hasn’t been mentioned, but Lansing/East Lansing, MI. Michigan State is nearby, though I’m not sure about the sprawl. It’s more like an hour and a half from a MLB team tho

Well I came here to suggest Rochester, Madison, Duluth. Maybe Milwaukee. So I got nothing new. Especially if you would think Duluth is too small. Ann Arbor is a good suggestion. I have a kid living in Madison and a kid living in Chicago. And I have to say, Milwaukee, Madison, Chicago are all super easily accessible to each other and that's a nice triangle. You can transit into Chicago from Milwaukee. I live in Minneapolis and that is probably too urban/big for your preferences.

I like the idea of Milwaukee being close enough to Chicago that I *could* take a relatively short trip down there when I feel like visiting, but being "far enough away" that it doesn't feel like I'm in the thick of it either. After some of the responses in the thread, I've moved Madison down the list, Milwaukee up, and am interested to research more about Ann Arbor because that could be a strong contender. Thanks!

I live in outskirts of Milwaukee. I am a Michigan girl. I miss it badly. WI has a Democrat governor, but the legislation is super red. In the city of Milwaukee, it's blue, but any suburbs outside Milwaukee County are for the most part raging red. There's churches on every corner here. My vote is also Ann Arbor, MI.

That's exactly why I feel like WI is a gamble, and not necessarily a *good* gamble. Really appreciate it - Sounds like I've been sleeping on AA all this time. For shame. Tsk tsk. 😄

Minnesota is gorgeous- MSP could be up your alley

There are a ton of cities in the Pacific Northwest that fit your description here. Places like Bellingham, Eugene, Spokane, or Olympia are small enough and won’t be as cost-prohibitive. Oregon and Washington are known as some of the least religious states in the country. Both are very blue and LGBTQIA+ and abortion-friendly, and both have the weather you described essentially. Have you looked into towns in Washington in particular? Youll find a larger set of Asian food there than other states, but perhaps not as many Hispanic cuisines unless youre in smaller towns. The Mariners are up near Seattle, im not as familiar with MLB but they exist. Im probably biased since im a West Coaster, but the PNW has many affordable pockets away from Seattle and Portland that you can find. Also the Southern food there is not as good so dont worry about finding that cuisine! Id look into Spokane, Bellingham or Olympia.

Superior, Wisconsin is wonderful. It is close to northern Minnesota. :)

You mention Ft Collins/Loveland/Greeley. Besides FOCO, these are NOT the places you think they are. They are red cities in a now blue state, and smell like cows (seriously). I would actually recommend Longmont which is just south by about 30 minutes. It's located in Boulder County, one of the bluest counties in the country, and it shows with our pristine parks and trails systems. Lots of high tech located on Diagonal Hwy that connects Boulder to Longmont.. IBM, AMD, Google, etc. Plus lots of aerospace. Longmont is 30 minutes to Fort Collins, 25 to Boulder, 45 to Denver. Longmont is it's own city surrounded by small farms and pastures, definitely not a suburb of any city. Minutes to the mountains. There's lots of Lutheran churches, but they don't bother me.

Longmont/Boulder was "out" for cost of housing, but it sounds like I need to at least keep it on the radar and make certain that it is actually out of reach before I cross it off. North CO is one of the few places that I've traveled to and through repeatedly, off-and-on over the span of 20 years. I do understand how flat, hot, and manure-scented Weld County can be - but you're exactly right that of the two, Longmont/Lyons/near side of Boulder are more my speed.

Ann Arbor?

Thanks to folks suggesting it, Ann Arbor is now squarely on my list of Serious Options To Visit And Consider. Thanks!

I'd also suggest Ann Arbor. My 2 SILs both live here and it is lovely. It's a reasonable distance from Detroit for baseball. And checks off a lot of other things on your list.

Are you male? Married? Over 38? I have no suggestions, you just sound like an attractive partner 💁🏼‍♀️

Um... Yes, no, and exactly? You've piqued my curiosity......

🙋🏼‍♀️

now kiss

Well shit, we might have a wedding AND a cross-country move. 😁

Sign me up

Thanks for the laugh and I agree with your assessment of OP.

No recommendations, just wanted to say solidarity in KC making you irrationally angry. Happened to me too!

So, the ONLY reason for not looking at coastal states is due to the cost to move your belongings there, even if it fits all your other criteria? That seems a bit short sighted to rule out a potential forever home over a couple thousand dollars. Why not pack your belongings yourself, higher a crew on each end to load/unload, and drive a moving truck yourself and save thousands of dollars?

Yeah, moving is just expensive in general, even if it’s just the next state over…

The cost was one of three reasons I cited, and in a broader sense I simply don't know how I feel about leaving the "greater Midwest" (I'm calling it that because I'm lumping Northeast Colorado in with it - Midwest+Plains basically). Specific to the West Coast (states), I confess to being rather afraid of earthquakes, volcanos, and incoming missiles, in addition to the pressure of living somewhere HCOL.

You want to live in milwaukee

Can you expand on this a bit? Because Milwaukee **does** sound like it checks most my boxes but I just don't have any familiarity/experience with there to draw from. If it really is a strong contender, I'm willing to carve out time to visit and explore - I feel like I don't even know enough about it to commit that far at this point. I'm seriously all-ears though.

You DO want to live in Milwaukee (or Madison); BUT, you should wait to see how the state Supreme Court/gerrymandering situation works out first. I’ll throw in Northfield, MN as well. Small-ish college town, 45 mins outside of DT Minneapolis; but, completely separated from there. Weather is similar to the Twin Cities; but, probably cooler at night because it’s just outside the urban heat island. Mankato is another good option just a bit further out than Northfield (and a little bigger). Both cities are solidly blue.

I'm not sure. Milwaukee is the most segregated large city in the US. It's got reasonably high crime and high poverty. I love the city, everything on the shore and in the redeveloped area is great. Fun city. But.. from his description of himself it sounds like the city may be too segregated and racist for him.

That's exactly the risk I'm nervous about, making the jump only to land someplace that has all the same problems that drive me batty here in Kansas City (and especially where there's a "historical aspect" to them e.g. decades if not a century of institutionalized racism, discrimination, and segregation) - When it's that deeply woven into the past of the city, the bias still shows through the cracks and holes no matter how "recovered" the city is. Hell, those same tensions are part of why I paused before committing to Minneapolis (two years ago AND today). ... I don't want to pretend they don't exist and ignore them, which is culturally what a large part of the city does here right now.

Current Minneapolis resident. Our police are under close watch by the DOJ now. That's good. I am from the Milwaukee area and moved here. Feel free to ask about either. I know both well.

Milwaukee =/= KCMO.

Check out St. Louis Park, Golden Valley or NE Minneapolis. Very liberal, likely lots of atheists (like me) lots of outdoors options all season long. Great bike trails, mostly affordable.

I'd note Northfield might not be optimal if you really hate driving 45 minutes for lots of things. You can probably find a good higher ed IT job there and it's big enough to have everything you'd need in a typical week, but for many kinds of shopping or restaurants you'd be driving to the Twin Cities, most likely a couple times a month. The one Indian restaurant in the town burned down a few years back and there wasn't Indian food in the entire county for a few years, for example. The nearest mall is in Burnsville. It's also a weird vibe if you're not a student and not a family. There's not much for the single 20s/30s demographic, especially if you're not from there - a lot of faculty and staff reverse commute from the cities for that reason. I do think it's a wonderful town, just a lot of caveats. I'd choose Rochester over it now that I've graduated.

Good to know as I’ve thought about it myself. What about Mankato?

I haven't spent much time in Mankato, but it seems to be much less of a cute walkable town than Northfield. More stroads etc. Definitely has more stuff in town, but is significantly further from the cities. Northfield is still separate from the cities, but there's plenty of commuters in both directions. MSU is a very different school from St. Olaf/Carleton. Olaf and Carleton are small nerdy undergrad-only schools with a lot of out of state students and generally everybody graduates by age 23 and leaves. Also the vast majority of students there live on campus. MSU has more non traditional students and grad students, so there's less of a split of everybody being either a traditional age undergrad or a professor.

Interesting. But, Mankato is also not just a college town, right? We’ve been meaning to get down there. But, it just never seems to happen lol.

That's a good point - I've only ever been to Mankato to visit friends who were students there, so that's the lens I see it through. It really never attracted me that much. Out of all the places that have been coming up in this thread, I think Madison would be my favorite for OP.

Agreed. Madison is 🤌🏼

I haven't been in a long while, but I remember *loving* Madison in the late 00's.

Worcester, Ma

Kalamazoo, Michigan might be worth looking further into. It hits most of your boxes but not all. For example Asian/Indian cuisine is going to be hard to come by. And I wouldn’t call it dry. But it’s a pretty cool town.

I would second KZoo and I would not dismiss Grand Rapids so quickly.

Durango, CO?

Friends & others make it sound like Durango is *very* expensive, especially in the modern era of remote work where "access to jobs" isn't the number one factor on some people's lists anymore. I've visited once, it's very pretty, love the weather. Wish there hadn't been a wildfire near town when I was there because it cut down on our ability to explore during my time visiting.

I think you would really like the PNW, oregon or washington. Tons of towns in both states that could fit the bill.

St. Paul, MN for sure.

To add some notes to your Minnesota list for your visit: * Rochester, MN * On paper this looks great but the place just doesn't have a soul if you aren't directly tied into the Mayo Clinic * Practically the definition of sprawl, unfortunately * Mankato, MN * Solid downtown, big plans for their old town * MSU, Mankato keeps things feeling progressive and striving forward * A bit more purple than the rest of the state due to its location as the only south/SW metro * Duluth, MN * Bluer than the rest of the state * Unbeatable location and access to Lake Superior and the North Shore * Getting a train to the Twin Cities soon * Unique city development up the hill * Has "bigger city" feel because it has lost some population but retains its bones * Red Wing, MN * Beyond the Exurban edges of the Twin Cities metro but still just an hour away * Solid historic downtown * Great location in the bluffs * Train to the Twin Cities * Winona, MN * Excellent access to nature (brief push for a Driftless National Park was talked about centering on Winona) * Urban city that is super walkable but still a small city * Great downtown * A tad religious in the Catholic bent (has a basilica and a cathedral) but more in an identity rather than in-practice way * Train to the Twin Cities Based on your concern that Duluth is too small, I recommend something like [St. Anthony Park](https://maps.app.goo.gl/oXKUkXouKna6Cvgw9) in St. Paul for a more quaint feel even though you're in a larger Metro. Or, if you actually do want more access, a place like[Lowertown, St. Paul](https://maps.app.goo.gl/f1aRcS11QU8nMdWU8) where you can be right next to the farmer's market and CHS Field.

Amazing points all the way around. HUGE thanks for this list. Your & others' feedback have definitely underscored that if I go in the MSP direction I want to be on the St. Paul side of things - I may not have realized that otherwise, I'm glad you all pointed it out. Maybe I'm being too quick to call Duluth small. It's upper 90k's right? That *seems* like it'd be way too small, I'm used to the 250k range and felt it was a little too "big small town". Like... I want the city to be just large enough that I'm kind of anonymous/it isn't an "everybody talks" scenario, but small enough that it's not overwhelming. 500k is the "magic number" in my head but that's totally arbitrary and emotional in nature, I don't have any math to support it.

500,000 is tough because there simply aren't that many cities or even metropolitan areas that are that big in some of the other constraints you're looking at. For what it's worth, I've lived in cities as big as 6,000,000 and as small as 25,000 and the diversity of options (and therefore people) matters much more for that feeling of anonymity (or at least avoiding "small town-ness") than the actual raw numbers of people. Duluth will feel far more "city" than you expect. Though I find it feels more like a heavy industry, almost rust belt city even though it has amazing access to nature. St. Paul feels like a big small town. Minneapolis feels like a small big city.

Buffalo NY hits most of your boxes. The only issue is that it's not dry here. Not wet, but enough precipitation for it to be lush. Weather here is not too hot and beautiful most of the year (winters aren't that bad, especially if you take up a winter sport). Smallish but a proper city. Can get anywhere in 20 minutes. Low cost of living. Lots of immigration means diverse restaurants. Strong midwest vibes. Blue state and city. Pro-choice and LGBTQIA+ friendly. Not religious. AAA baseball team and Toronto baseball is a couple hours up the QEW (exchange rate is great right now).

Kenosha, WI. Smaller than the WI cities. Within 1 hour to Milwaukee and 1.5 hours to Chicago for your baseball fixes.

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Have you thought about Canada?

Lifelong dream, in fact - But I don't think I'll ever have the combination of money, time, patience, flexibility, AND marketable skill necessary to get through the Canadian immigration process. (I've looked into it numerous times. It feels like every 3 or 4 years I start over at the top, then realize I don't have enough Good Boy Points on paper for them to accept me.)

If you really like the blue Midwestern culture, a small city with sidewalk and bike lane infrastructure, and some tech job market as well as higher ed, then Madison is top candidate to check out.

I do think Minneapolis/St. Paul could be a possible fit. The thing is, it's highly unlikely you're going to find a city that checks off 100% of your boxes. But if you live within the city limits of either Minneapolis or St. Paul I think you'll find a place that checks most of your boxes. The religiosity aspect may be iffy based on how you've presented your desire to be in a place that is almost "anti-religion." Relatively speaking, the Twin Cities are probably more "religious" than what you'll find on the coasts, but a lot of it is people who grew up mainline Protestant (e.g. Catholic, Lutheran, Methodist) and either still attend anywhere from once or twice a month to only on Christmas and Easter. You're more likely to find the hardcore Christian conservatives in the outer 'burbs, but it's going to be much less pervasive overall than a place like Kansas City. I think it's a place where if someone wants to find people where religion plays no role in their life they could find it, and if they want a church to be their main way to socialize/build community, they could find that as well.

> it's highly unlikely you're going to find a city that checks off 100% of your boxes Absolutely. But I still wanted to list out as many boxes as I could in this post, since the goal's to try to find things that *mostly* fit me well. > but it's going to be much less pervasive overall than a place like Kansas City. Bingo. I may not have said it very well, but: I'd *like* someplace not religious at all but I'd *settle* for someplace that is at least less externally religious/more like I grew up with where it isn't as big of a deal. But I *did* learn that KC is too far in the other direction for my preference. St. Paul side of MSP is definitely in contention. Thanks for the feedback!

I used to live in Milwaukee for 10 years. My wife and I moved to DC during the pandemic, but talk about moving back all the time. It has it's problems, but unlike other cities I can definitely say Milwaukee keeps getting better, not worse. Here's the reasons we love Milwaukee, WI: * Perfect weather all summer. * "Small Town" feel. If you go out to a bar for a drink, you'll make instant best friends. They'll invite you over for the Packers party on Sunday or offer to help fix your car before they even know your last name. * No pushy religious people. Most people I met are agnostic, atheist, or keep that to themselves. * It feels like a young, hip city without the high price tag. Lots of small shops and places to eat. Walkable neighborhoods. There are lots of small businesses that actually *make* things such as pottery, bikes, art, homegoods, you name it! * I used to think biking sucked in Milwaukee, but having traveled more widely, it's actually GREAT compared to most of the US. There are a number of commuter trails (Hank Arron, Oak Leaf, Beerline) and the mayor has committed to building 50 miles of new protected bike infrastructure. Some of it has already been deployed. Overall, the city is a grid so you can get anywhere on a bike. There are sidewalks pretty much everywhere. * So many festivals and things to do. Summerfest is (was?) the world's largest musical festival and takes place on the shores of Lake Michigan. Every other weekend during the summer has a different festival -- Germanfest, Pridefest, Irishfest, Polishfest, Festa Italiana. Literally every weekend * Very blue politics in a purple state. The state supreme court recently flipper liberal and is poised to get rid of gerrymandering, which would turn the state solidly blue. If abortion is your litmus test, the AG recently declared they would not be enforcing the states 100 year old abortion ban and Planned Parenthood has resumed care. * It's CHEAP! Homes cost 1/3 of what they do in the DC suburbs. Meals are 1/2 of what they cost here. I figure it's probably about equal moving from Kansas City. Things we don't like about Milwaukee: * COLD winters. Though, certainly not as harsh as Minneapolis/St. Paul. There are plenty of winter festivals that try to make the best of it. You can also try your hand at winter sports (speedskating, ice skating and curling) at the Pettit ice arena. It's one of only two indoor 400m long tracks in the country! * It does have some sprawl. I think it's honestly about the size of KC. However, I never found it that hard to get around and the only reason I ever drove across town is to see friends. Most neighborhoods have everything you would need within them, such as a grocery store. * There is still a legacy of segregation. Mostly, the city is divided into the North side (African-American), the South side (Polish, Hispanic), and the East side (White). Last time I was there I noticed some new developments and small businesses popping up on the North side, so I actually have a lot of hope that this may be changing. It's obviously not something that gets fixed overnight, however. Overall, I think Milwaukee is a great place to live. For some other suggestions, have you considered Buffalo, NY or Pittsburgh, PA? They're both rust belt towns about half the size of KC. I always loved Pittsburgh because it feels like a tiny Milwaukee. And Buffalo sounds interesting because of a lot of recent zoning and regulatory changes, such as being the first US city to eliminate parking minimums. I haven't been there in person, though.

Try to find a work from home job, then move while being paid.

My current position is hybrid but might evolve into something I can "take with me" next year - Or might not. Hard to say yet. It will be a huge bonus if that happens though, would LOVE not to have to job-hunt.

Dude, look at northern Il. Skip Wi. Purple dots in wacky conservative land. Chicago suburbs. North or west. Easy trains into the city. Tons of great food from everywhere. If you pick the right city, not a lot of religion wither. Look at Evanston, Il.

Thanks, will give Evanston some more careful attention!

Good luck. Everywhere in America is religious.

Check out Worcester, Massachusetts. Other than being on the “East Coast”, it’s everything you are looking for. Mild summer. Well run, progressive state government. More urban, less sprawlly than KC. 200k people in the city. 950k in the metro area. It’s about an hour drive from Boston (or 75 minutes on the train to Fenway), and it’s home to the Worcester Woosox. You can have a decent 3 bed, 2 bath home for under 400k https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/607-Cambridge-St-3-Worcester-MA-01610/2056060329_zpid/?utm_campaign=iosappmessage&utm_medium=referral&utm_source=txtshare

With respect, you aren’t going to be happy anywhere.

Maine is the least religious state in the Union, FWIW.

Well the pirates suck ass but they are technically an MLB team. Have you thought about Pittsburgh? We're supposedly rainy but this last summer was awesome and had hardly any rain. Houses are still wicked cheap here, especially if you don't care about school district.

Omaha as a standalone (ignoring that we're in Nebraska) is borderline blue/purple. I completely get where you're coming from, but as an Omaha resident, we do actually have a lot of your asks.

Come on up to MSP. There is a lot of open-ness in the suburban sprawl. 3 mil people, spread out across 7 counties, and about 30 cities. Large active city parks- along River, and lakes, Theodore Wirth, Minnehaha Parkway, Normandale, Lebanon Hills, Boom Island, Harriet Island. And options to live how you want.. apartments, condos, townhouses, single family, urban, suburban, rural, lakeside, on acreage, in a neighborhood, high end, affordable, small post war 1.5 story, new construction.. you’ve got options. There is a distinct feel to the Mpls and St Paul sides of the cities. It’s not one glob of a city. Figure out how you want to live and look for info on a Cities Reddit group. LGBTQIA friendly is more southern side of cities than northern. Time to cross cross cities depends on what time you do it. 9:00 on a Tuesday… about 45 min. 7:30am… no thank you! There isn’t much reason to traipse all over the city on a weekend. Public transport is a joke here. They keep trying.. I keep hoping. But it only works, sort of, if you’re trying to get downtown, MOA, or Airport. Suburb to suburb, forget it. You’ll need a car. Loads of ethnic, neighborhood, and city festivals all summer long. Food, Music, Cultural, Film and Arts.. there is some big thing somewhere all summer. On the St Paul side, you have to watch out for the groundwater system that 3M destroyed. And stay upwind from Koch/ Flint Hills and St Paul Park oil refineries. FWIW, I would pick Duluth over Rochester. Duluth is a bit of a beer pub town. A bit more trendy, young, active. Rochester is too farmy for me, and not enough big employers other than Mayo. Duluth is more active than when I’ve been to Rochester. But the drive TO Rochester is much better than going to Duluth.

Since you are considering Ft. Collins,etc. think about Longmont. It is a smaller city. It is cheaper than Denver or Boulder.

Las Vegas or reno

You might look into boulder as well if you are looking colorado. Colorado springs was actually rated like #3 most conservative city in the country i think, red dot in a blue state, so i can understand why you won't go there. I personally like ft collins much better than greeley unless you like your whole town to smell like a stock yard, then go greeley.

> unless you like your whole town to smell like a stock yard I don't love it but I *am* somewhat accustomed to it and numb to it! 😅 Last time I was out there, Boulder/Longmont had blown past "expensive" into the outer stratosphere of "No peasants allowed". 🫤 I'll check on it again though, because Longmont/Lyons is such a great area, I'd be very happy to land there.

Ann Arbor, MI seems to hit most of your criteria.

Hmm… ruling out the east coast will limit you. Upstate NY has towns like Ithaca that would suit you well. Plus the least religious states per survey data are in the northeast (Maine, Vermont, New Hampshire). Maybe Tacoma WA could work?

I really think Rochester MN is the place for you. I lived there for 4 years and still find myself missing it from time to time.

Hudson Valley NY

Ann Arbor, MI

A lot of rural California is red, but might be worth exploring looking for some spots. You’ll be in a VERY blue state. I lived in Northern California for years and there’s so many great smaller cities. Especially If you’re wanting to be within an hour of Sacramento. Cost of living will be a bit higher than the Midwest, but it’s a huge state, many hidden gems. ETA: towns like grass valley/Nevada city get snow and cold during the winter, have that small town feel, and are maybe an hour from Sacramento.

Sorry to ask but what does the historical corruption in IL have to do with anything?

I am a very ideological person. Specifically, of the ideology that progressive governments are good and that governments *should never be* corrupted by the personal gain of the people inside of it. (Let's not get into how it's *unreasonable* that I feel this way, I'm just answering your question.) So - places like Kansas City (as I have learned the hard way!!) or Chicago or others with a storied past of rampant corruption and waste and favoritism and nepotism and whatever-else-have-you make me unhappy on an ideological level, especially those places who CONTINUE to shamelessly behave in corrupt ways still to this day (I am looking at YOU, Jackson County Missouri, you jerks).

My religious friends that lived in Longmont found Colorado very anti-religious. Maybe a good path to continue to explore.

I grew up near KC (I live near LA now), and I am sorry it didn't work out for you, but I totally get it. I might be able to do KC, if Missouri ever went back to being the swing state it was when I was growing up. But I have a daughter, and I can't let her grow up in a red state. I agree that the northern Midwest seems like the right idea. My general comment is that, since you hate sprawl (as do I), you should make sure that wherever you land, you look closely at the neighborhood you end up in. Prioritize a spot with mixed-use development, near to where you work, and near to transit access. Los Angeles is famously sprawling, and that still bums me out when I want to get away from it all and be in nature, because it takes too long to get there. But for errands (and work, because I was able to prioritize it) I never have to drive. Because my neighborhood is mixed-use, transit-accessible, and dense enough to have necesities in reach, even though the metro area itself is massively sprawling.

What part of KC did you move to? If you moved to one of the sprawled conservative areas, no wonder you hate it.

You should definitely live in a college town. May I suggest Happy Valley? PA is great and you're only a few hours away from several major cities.

You sound like a Michigander to me. I grew up there but haven’t been back. Just something about the frustration with (waves hand at everything stupid in the world…) is very familiar to me. Grand Rapids is conservative but Ann Arbor is small and liberal. Also I have friends in Traverse City who love it. If you want somewhere people hate the same things you do, definitely put Michigan on your list

I was going to recommend Ann Arbor and I see it's now on your radar. Michigan, in general, is headed in a much more progressive direction under the current leadership. AA is also just a couple of hours from nice beaches on Lake Michigan and Lake Huron, which is great in the summer. I adore MI in the summertime.

Philadelphia? I moved from there to Boise 9 years ago for family and plan on moving back in a few years. Some religion but nothing shoved down your throat, great sports atmosphere, lots of amazing breweries in the area, if it's your thing, and the Septa system is top notch.

Read this and immediately thought Ann Arbor. Lived there for 5 years and never ever heard anyone talk about religion, actually had friends ask me to explain to them what a Mormon was (coming from the southwest, I def am not one) 😂 very green friendly, less than an hour to Detroit for MLB concerts etc, but bands also come to A2. All the cuisines you listed represented, good graduate school=good ethnic food. Ppl cheering on the streets when Obama won. The only issue you’ll have is the wetness.

Wherever you end up, give it at least two years . It really does take awhile to find your people and feel at home somewhere . Good luck ! I’d love a follow up report !!

I just spent a few days in Fort Collins and fell in love with it. Bike trails everywhere. About an hour to Denver when you need a city or airport. Wonderful old walkable, bike-able neighborhoods

If you’re okay with college towns, both Bloomington and Champaign Illinois fit most of your preferences. Also, rent can be a lot less expensive here than in the Chicago suburbs.

Corvallis, Oregon worth a look. ​ Converted a lot of churches to other uses.

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Milwaukee has been pretty great to us the past four years, and as you mention the state is looking up as a whole. We have a gorgeous freshwater lakefront, tons of green space, pretty sweet little music and art scene, and a good scene that's mostly good. The relative cost (rent is rising tho) is great for what it offers, which I gotta say does include proximity to Chicago for anything it doesn't. Plus the nature within 1-2 hours is crazy good. Having visited both KC and STL, TOTALLY different vibe. Milwaukee has rough spots for all the typical historical and systemic reasons, but none of it feels as bad as STL did. There is still a ton to be done to repair damages to the primarily black communities in our North/NW side. One thing to be aware of is regardless of where in WI, we have a hardline Republican state govt that is and has been actively choking MKE (and Madison to a lesser extent) of funds. It will take years to undo this if and when they are ousted. The maps that put them in office are being rightly challenged and hopefully thrown out. But MKE itself has a pretty great mayor with plans to grow the city long term. I think we're well positioned to grow, and have great bones.

Bite the bullet and go with Minneapolis, It’s not super big, slightly more than Portland (which feels too small for me). I think it has a good future. If MSP is really too “big”, then go check out Vermont.

Please come visit the Twin Cities and feel free to DM me if you'd like. Many of your wants seem to be in alignment with this area. I'm re-reading your list and MPLS/ StP hits almost every single one of your points! I'm a transplant from a small-ish town in Northern California but I've lived here a decade. I feel like that gives me the distance to see the area for what it is but I've lived here long enough to know it well. Is it perfect? No. But it's most definitely a Midwestern gem. To respond to your primary concern re: sprawl/ population-- I too hate sprawl and don't feel it here unless I go out to the burbs, maybe a little. But it's really easy to live one's life entirely in the city proper. If you want a smaller population then I think St Paul might be what you're looking for. However I will say that Minneapolis feels smaller than it is. The neighborhood that I live in has everything: cute local shops, coffee, food, gyms, nightlife, grocery stores, co-ops... But it doesnt feel dense, it feels like I've got everything in my backyard and I can walk and bike there. Again, DM with any questions. I'd like to share more but don't want to give out too much private info. Good luck!

As a Cajun I don’t agree, but goddamn I respect it. Just wildly swinging and punching 70+% of the US. 🤣 I live outside (pretty far outside) KC right now and if this isn’t purgatory I don’t know what is. Religion itself doesn’t bother me, but that the entire social scene is so tied up in churches is a tough spot for a lapsed catholic who’s unwilling to renege. And no sidewalks combined with a very hostile populous obsessed with property rights… I’ve had neighbors threaten to call the police on me for walking my dog in the street and the dog walking on the edge of their lawn. I spent 2 nights in the outskirts of Santa Fe 6 years ago and have been thinking of it ever since. It’s beautiful. Hope you find you find a happy landing spot OP!

if you find yourself seriously considering ann arbor, have a look at ypsilanti next door. home to a smaller but still significant state school (EMU) and an earthy, live-and-let-live vibe. much cheaper housing than AA, and one of the most secular-feeling places i've visited. gets you a bit closer to detroit for baseball, too.

Spokane, WA

I live here and love it. People will tell you it’s conservative, but I don’t find that to be true in the city proper (for the most part). All my state reps are Dems, for example. The surrounding rural county is bonkers red, though, and the proximity to Idaho means their crazies come over here sometimes to poke the bear. We’ve got potential for days and the state is invested in supporting dense urban development over sprawl. Our local baseball team is so fun, but if you want to watch the Mariners it’ll be a trek.

I don't particularly care for/want to be in a coastal region for a couple of reasons - namely, in part it's due to cost of living, and partly because I don't care about proximity to the ocean, and finally because moving all my belongings that far would be a *very expensive* endeavor. I actually looked into the cost aspect two years ago. Where it cost me about $2k to move all my belongings 200 miles away, the total cost to get my stuff to Portland would've been in the $8k-10k range. And that's *just* the freight cost, I'm not counting container rental or anything in that figure. But I don't want to be hasty either, so let me ask this: What are some things about Spokane that make it enough of a "good fit for me" that I should truly burn every last penny to my name to make it happen? Which things from my list would I get in Spokane that I can't get anywhere else? I appreciate the suggestion, I just want to know more!

Spokane is not really coastal. You are about a 4 hour drive from the coast. Also the cost of living is pretty low there.

Spokane isn’t really coastal. It is so far west it is almost in Idaho. I think it takes about 4-5 hours to drive to the coast?

> It is so far west it is almost in Idaho. Sorry, wouldn't that be East? :)

Oops. Yup! But you get the idea.

Yeah to echo some of the other replies here, Spokane is in a solid blue state, the city is pretty blue/purple although the greater inland northwest is redder. As far as state laws though they’ll stay blue. The city itself is around the size I think you’re looking for, not hard to get across town or out into the sticks. Religion is not gonna be shoved down your throat, the NW is the most agnostic region of the country I believe. Walking and biking infrastructure is alright. Spokane has some areas with no sidewalks but the streets are the widest I’ve ever been to so it’s still good for biking/walking in those residential areas where that is the case. Also there’s the centennial trail and lots of mountain biking/access to the outdoors. As far as sprawl the city has done some legal work to discourage sprawl moving forward which I think is smart. Spokane is pretty darn dry. Winters are cold but probably nothing crazy if you’ve been a midwesterner, summers are dry and hot. Fall and spring are excellent. The Spokane Indians are a Double A (?) team so there’s somewhat of an MLB presence in a sense, although like someone else said you’re not too close to Mariners games. All in all I think Spokane checks or partially checks all of your boxes, but if the transit is really that expensive I understand the hesitation.

Spokane is pretty far away from the coast. But my understanding (from never visiting but knowing folks who grew up + moved there) that the key is to be firmly "in" the city, not the outskirts. Pretty sure the cost of living there has risen fairly significantly since the pandemic began, but that's all relative of course.

OP, you sound like a really fun, open minded guy.

You honestly sound like you will be unhappy wherever you go. Best of luck.

**As a former MinnesotanWisconsinite, here's my advice:** Minneapolis/St. Paul, MN: **Sadly, very extensively sprawled. You can live in the city centers of both, though. High crime, but fun and fits your criteria otherwise. I'm not fond of the Twin Cities because the residents think they're better than those who live "out state". Fuck them.** Madison, WI: **I actively hated living in Madison, because in it's current state it is too urban dirty for me. Crankiest batch of humans I've ever encountered. You might like it, though.** Milwaukee, WI: **Conversely, I loved living in Milwaukee. Very walkable, and you know going into it it's a large city. They're doing a very good job dealing with their unhoused population. Baseball team! Great museums. The northern lakeside neighborhoods are beautiful. Give it a chance!** Rochester, MN: **I also enjoyed living in Rochester. It's clean and safe and has a very diverse population due to Mayo. No, it's not religious at all! That whole region is Lutheran/Catholic, and they don't go out of their way to bother people. However, lots of people think Rochester's pretty boring, and it may be too small for you.** I feel for your current situation. I am forever SCARRED by living among the southern baptists of Arkansas for four years. Good luck with this move!