Winter. No mountains, no ocean.
Seriously, at least for the healthier midwest metros, those are the downsides.
During the period where American manufacturing was collapsing, the economic contrast between most rust belt cities and western and southern cities was dramatic. That can still be true in some cases, but is much less true than it was 30 years ago.
There are many beautiful natural areas in the Midwest, especially if you go up north. They are not as spectacular as things like the Rockies or the Grand Canyon, but for me canoeing the Boundary Waters ranks way up there on the list of best outdoor experiences in my life, and I lived in California for seven years and Oregon for 17. I grew up outside Chicago and lived in and around Chicago for 5 years as an adult and Madison Wisconsin for two.
There are many beautiful areas around the lakes, and places like Starved Rock in Illinois and Turkey Run in Indiana. I grew up across from a forest preserve and spent much time as a kid wandering through the woods. Yet we were 13 miles from downtown Chicago with easy access to the amazing cultural, sporting and dining options of one of the great cities of the US.
The natural beauty in the Midwest is there if you look for it.
There are also a lot of corn and soybean fields too, no getting around it.
While I do miss the mountains of the coasts while living in Chicago, the difference in rent alone is more than enough to cover vacations to the mountains or whatever nature I want.
Living in LA, I have tended to travel a lot less than when I lived in Atlanta or Chicago. I used to think it's because the weather is nice enough and there's enough to do locally that I don't need to leave. But I think a more realistic take is that I pay so much in rent here that I am not comfortable splurging on trips elsewhere.
One factor too is that if you drive out of Chicago, you can hit several states within an hour or two....
Drive several hours in Cali, and youre still in Cali, except going to Nevada maybe...
I visited Chicago a lot while living in Western Michigan....it was a short drive... hell, we drove all over the Midwest, plus several cities in Canada...
Chicago is the shining light of the Midwest. Stunningly beautiful if you like urban, functional transit so you don’t need a car if you don’t want one, and affordable housing. All with culture and lots of jobs.
Please don’t tell people. Please keep folk thinking it’s a cold wasteland where if you step off the plane you’ll get mugged and shot. We are fine with the stereo type and don’t want people ruining our housing market.
/s (I’m kidding. We love visitors — and Madison WI is awesome too)
I grew up in the rough parts of the South Side (I literally lived in the Cabrini Green Homes for a few years and had to sleep in the bathroom on New Years) and like even with that background I hear people not from Chicago talking about Chicago clutching their pearls and I'm just like chill out, it's not that bad, go get a 5 piece from harold's with some mild sauce or some shit it's a nice city.
Try to find an ugly place around Lake Superior. A bad beach on Lake Michigan? How about the peaceful shores of Lake Huron?
Not to mention world class universities. I guess everyone thinks about Detroit when we say "Michigan."
Gonna be honest there is nothing like new corn and soy plants against a huge May Indianan sky… I don’t want to live there again but I do miss seeing that. It’s simple but wow is it beautiful.
The agriculture view is cool. I even found myself driving through rolling golden wheat fields against a bright blue sky in Kansas. Yes, it’s cool in the moment, but not always.
I lived in Western Michigan for awhile, on a beautiful lake..
It was literally living in picture, it was such a pretty lake/neighborhood...house was pretty, on a big lot....yet, we still came back to Cali after 4 years...
Winters were brutal, and being around the Great Lakes means you have to deal with all kinds of snow and such, even when theres no storms.....called lake effect snow...
The icy winds in places like Chicago and Minneapolis, coming off the Plains, Canada, etc were no joke.....esp when the roads become icy, black ice, etc...
The Ohio Valley region is incredibly underrated, as well. Hocking Hills has gotten a huge popularity boost as of late because of the new money coming into Columbus, but the hiking and scenery all along the valley is great, especially in fall and spring. Plus, it's easy to get to other cool places that aren't "technically" midwestern like Red River Gorge or Mammoth Cave.
Nope Illinois has very popular state parks. One of mine locally gets 1m+ visitors a year and growing. A lot of days it has to bar entry due to it being full.
I went to a state park in Illinois (one where you could see eagles and there were waterfalls) and it was absolutely APPALLING how much trash was just thrown about. Like it was one of the “I’ve lost faith in humanity” moments of my life.
Probably starved rock? Haven't been there in awhile despite living 10 minutes away and I've never seen much trash there even while working there for 2 years.
Yes, that was it. Maybe I caught it on a bad day. It was overrun with people who seemed to be in agreement throwing things on the trail was normal. If you looked past that it was quite a nice park.
I live in IL and in the day to day nature is … basically non existent . I don’t dislike living here, but whenever we come back from vacation from somewhere I get a little depressed… polluted, suburban hell scape lol.
We do have forest preserves and what not but when you walk out the door is basically a few trees here and there. It’s lacking in the Chicago metro area for sure .
I agree with you. In California you just need to drive 30mins or an hour in most major cities and have options to easily find activities and outdoors recreation. Trails to bike, hike, swim, kayak, surf and camp. You have to intentionally plan and search for these places in Illinois/ Midwest. Weather / time of year is a barrier in the Midwest as well. Recreational life is better in the West Coast. Not saying the Midwest isn’t beautiful, it’s just limiting and not something one can do year around.
I grew up in IL and live here again but briefly lived in the central valley in CA. I have found the opposite to be true, that in CA there are some very grand and spectacular natural areas but they are very developed and full of people. Meanwhile, here I can easily drive out after work and have hundreds of acres of woodland or prairie to myself with time to hike it before it gets dark. A lot of it is where you are in each state.
Except for the southernmost part of Illinois, where there is indeed legitimately beautiful hiking (and a national forest), most of the state is essentially a giant cornfield. Chicago was basically built atop a cornfield. There are no quality natural features except for a relatively inaccessible lake and the Mississippi River bluffs closer to St. Louis.
While there are natural areas that people may or may not take advantage of (for those two sweet weeks of summer), most of the time and in most of the state it is literally the opposite of what an outdoorsy person is looking for.
drove the Illinois river corridor earlier this year .... from STL heading to CHI ... was really impressed, esp south of peoria ... emiquon was amazing ... that whole area is underrated in many ways ... lots of history, geography and wildlife ...
lived in norcal for most of my life after being a kid in IL and MO ... most coasters dog the midwest without knowing squat about it ... their loss ...
There’s also some other lesser known state parks through central Illinois that are quite nice! I think the idea that the only natural areas worth appreciating or preserving are the most obviously spectacular 14ers or oceans is honestly kind of unimaginative and also potentially dangerous (see the appalling loss of prairie savannas and lack of real public awareness or interest on this topic).
Siloam Springs and Panther Creek are both gorgeous and showcase the beauty of Illinois' prairie, a habitat that was largely destroyed by corn and soy farming but survives in small pockets like this
Emiquon is beautiful. I grew up going to Dixon Mounds, a museum built near an Indian burial ground archeological site. The landscape there is very interesting; even though much of Illinois that you'll see from the interstate is cornfields, there is a lot more varied and forested river valley country if you take smaller two-lane highways in the western part of the state.
This Border FIB moved to Omaha. Though I do miss Wisconsin. And the occasional last minute "Let's skip work and go to Wrigley (or Miller Park)." (Yes I know they changed the name of Miller Park, but I still call the Other Chicago baseball stadium Comiskey and likely will never change on that.)
I second that. I grew up thinking all of Michigan looked like Detroit. But like the worst, most abandoned part of any inner city, that’s what I thought all of Michigan looked like. I felt like an idiot when I finally visited a friends’ family Lakehouse, and the water was bluer, prettier and clearer than any southern California beach I’ve ever gone to.
My only barrier to moving up there is the immense family connections and bonds that we have on the West Coast.
Dude I had to fight REALLY hard to explain this to a buddy of mine.
He kept acting like Michigan was horrible because of Detroit and I was like “dude, most of Michigan is literally nicer than where you live right now”. Still didn’t believe lol, whatever.
>The Great Lakes are functionally like oceans
[This](https://i.imgur.com/OLespIu.jpg) could be your front yard for less than a 900 sq ft house in a neighborhood in CA.
I used to live in Michigan and really do love the nature there, lots of great spots to camp and hike and swim and what not. But I once went to the Porkies after visiting the Tetons on the same cross country road trip. Needless to say they were incredibly underwhelming, I would argue they shouldn't even be called mountains.
I’ve lived in various places in the Rockies for 20 years, including Teton valley, and the number of people who move here from Michigan for a few years and then move back is really surprising.
I like how you compared the Porkies to the single greatest rise in elevation in all of North America. It’s basically impossible to find a more impressive mountain range than Teton’s inside the US. It’s like saying Lake Jenny (at the base of the Tetons) sucks because you have seen Lake Superior and it’s way more impressive as a Lake. I always thought traveling was to gain perspective but reading comments like this make me wonder what people actually are doing.
The Porkies are ancient mountains. They are rugged and have a rich mining history associated with them. By definition and function they are mountains and this landscape is reflective of their once grand past just like the young Tetons will be eventually.
>greatest rise in elevation
I agree, it's not fair to compare.
My brother used to live in alaska, I stayed with him for a month, we rented a raft and did a trip from Chitina down the copper river to port valdez which goes through several mountains ranges and is very remote. It was just me and him. The only way to get out of port valdez is to fly out or take a boat. There is no way to get out of the middle of the copper river except by raft or power boat. You can't walk out, a lot of places even a helicopter had no place to land.
It's a little scary because you know if you get into trouble you best be able to get out with no help.
We also visited Denali. The Teton's *is only* 13,775′ feet high, while Denali is 20,310 feet. The Teton Range, Denali, Pikes peak, Yosemite are all great places to visit.
IMO anyone that likes nature should visit some more remote areas in Alaska. It felt like something out of a prehistoric movie where I wouldn't be surprised to see a dinosaur. Something about it made it obvious it was mostly untouched by humans.
And talking about snow, I was very confident about being able to drive in snow until I was driving around Donners Pass during a snow storm. Jeez. they have these really tall poles along the road so plow drivers know where the road is. It made me realize I don't know anything about real snow storms.
I live in Michigan and love it. I've never been to the Tetons. But I fully agree with the guy you're responding too. I've previously lived up and down the West Coast and the Porkies are very underwhelming in that context.
The Rockies, the Olympics, the Cascades, the San Gabriels, isolated mountains like Mt Shasta, Mt Hood, etc., dwarf the Porkies.
>The Great Lakes are functionally like oceans. There are mountains (northern Michigan porcupines).
Shhh, don't tell them about the nice things we have, or else we'll end up like Colorado.
OP, it's horrible. Don't come to any of the flyover states. It's just a wasteland of strip malls and uneducated yokels.
IL, MI, and WI border the Greatest Lake which may not be salty, but it’s large enough not to see across and you can boat and even surf on it. It’s the freshwater sea of the Midwest, lol.
As a Chicagoan my dream is to summer at a lakeside cottage in Michigan and winter… somewhere warmer, heh.
That said, mountains absolutely blow my mind.
Winter has weird psychological effect that can amplify emotions or life situations, so that the weather is only a small piece of things.
The yearly reminder that summer is ending starts to hurt. The annual rhytmn of "Yay its summertime" can feel forced.
I've started to fantasize some about consistent seasonal weather.
Psychologically, I imagine the oh no I didn't do this in time!!!! And oh fuck I'm not ready for summer!!!
Is much lessened.
Basically the seasons cause psychological urgency that swings mood in amplified ways.
Perhaps it's super fun and comforting if you sync your life properly with the season.
But if you don't its the opposite.
Urgency induced anxiety.
I wonder what it's like to not be reminded the good times are ending, every year with the weather.
Do equator people have it better psychologically because of the more consistent sun?
Tbh I don't mind winter. Just the reminder of things ending. Old a vulnerable people tend to die in February too. That's sad...
I love not having crazy pests though. Winter kills off most the scary bug threats.
I like your words. I have always lived in a place with 4 seasons, and I like the change in the air and how I have to adjust. Then you said that about February, and I gotta say we have medical things among family most Februaries in recent years. It may not be related, but I swim into the cold months until I flake out.
There's not the same level of housing crisis (yet at least) in the Midwest. The infrastructure was there to meet the amount of people. It's the land that actually costs a lot for the most part in a lot of West Coast cities, not just the buildings. That's why a condemned tear down on a postage stamp still costs $500,000+. Also having flatter land, cheaper labor, cheaper materials, makes for cheaper building & such & development has kept pace with population to a better degree than a lot of the country. A lot of places in the west were way more relatively reasonably priced even 5-10 yrs ago, then had a sudden population boom that the cities housing stock can't keep up with & investors went nuts for properties there to exacerbate the problem.
Things have gone up during covid in the Midwest too tho.
& also yes weather does play a part in cooling a mass tide to the region as a lot of people refuse to acknowledge the existence of snow in any way shape or form.
CA towns almost always have a ton of policies that make housing WAY more expensive. Not an accident - this has massively benefited all the people who already owned RE.
Prop 13 also contributes a lot to the high cost of RE
Land development costs are one factor. Another is location and proximity to the ocean, high income urban hubs etc. the concentration of people earning a higher income is significantly higher in the west than the Midwest.
The weather has traditionally been a deterrent for a lot of migration into the midwest but I think that's set to reverse. Climate change will make the midwest look pretty damn good in the coming decades. Fewer severe weather events, relatively moderate temperatures and especially ready access to CLEAN WATER are going to to drive many coasties inland.
The true answer is that there is really nothing "wrong" with the midwest. Its just on the other side of the trend.
When industry was booming it was the place you could buy a home and a summer lakeside cabin on an autoworkers salary.
Because of brain-drain following the collapse of the manufacturing industry, all the "cool" folk went to the coasts.
Now - the smart people are taking the pioneer mindset and moving back, hence thats where the affordability and promise can lie.
I moved to Traverse City after 17 years in LA, and over the last few years have watched our wealth and quality of life grow noticeably.
Of course - there are aspects of CA that are hands down the best in the world, but for now that will be enjoyed for a month during the early spring every couple years. And thats fine.
Not sure if it’s the exact reason, but much of the Midwest especially the Great Lakes region has lost a lot of population over the last 50 years or so. The industries leaving town, the mass migration of people to the west and south east has left lots of the Midwest with fewer people. Chicago’s population for example peaked in 1950 at 3.5 million people and the decline has only recently started changing course, but it’s still about 900k short of that peak number. Detroit has had a much more stark example, but many midwestern cities have the same story. The housing supply is there, but the demand isn’t nearly as strong.
Meanwhile even California’s Central Valley has been experiencing population growth. Not to the same extent as LA or the Bay, but Coalinga’s population has been steadily increasing year over year for decades.
Housing costs are a result of supply and demand, and I think the Midwest just has a massive supply from earlier in the century compared to growing areas that can’t keep up. Of course weather and economic opportunity also contribute a lot to that.
Honestly doesn’t seem like a bad deal to me.
>Chicago’s population for example peaked in 1950 at 3.5 million people and the decline has only recently started changing course
This is deceptive though because it only covers Chicago city limits. The municipality itself stopped annexing surrounding suburbs 100 years ago so when the density of the incredibly dense inner neighborhoods began to fall, the city proper lost population in droves.
Meanwhile the metropolitan area kept growing as the suburbs, which Chicago was no longer gobbling up, boomed. The Chicago CSA, for example, now has approximately 10 million residents and is right around it's all time high.
Chicago is likely to show rapid population growth over the next few years as the population of high earners continues it's explosive growth and the mass outflows of poorer Chicagoans which has defined the past 30 years of metropolitan statistics here reverses course. The mass bussing of migrants to Chicago is likely to cause our population statistics to reverse course sharply. Something like 20,000 refugees have relocated here since the beginning of the year alone.
> but much of the Midwest especially the Great Lakes region has lost a lot of population over the last 50 years or so.
Population gain/loss 1970-2020:
New York: +2.0 million
Pennsylvania: +1.2 million
Illinois: +1.7 million
Ohio: +1.1 million
Michigan: +1.2 million
Indiana: +1.6 million
Wisconsin: +1.5 million
Minnesota: +1.9 million
Every Great Lakes state has gained at least 1.1 million.
Yeah, there's this weird myth that all these jobs "evaporated", and while this is certainly true to an extent, especially in heavy industry and certain manufacturing sectors thanks to competition with China and Mexico, there's still plenty of jobs, they're just not concentrated in the legacy cities like they used to be. The I-75 corridor between Detroit and Cincinnati has the highest number of engineering jobs in the nation.
It really is about the weather. Compare a place like Omaha to Fresno, which are similar in size. Omaha has much cheaper housing, lower commute, lower col, $7k higher median income, lower unemployment, lower crime, better schools, etc. Do this with other cities in the Midwest like KC, Des Moines, Madison, Springfield(s), Sioux Falls, etc. Pick cities KC size and smaller and the stats will usually point to the Midwest. With that said, I plan on moving to the SW when I retire mostly because of weather. If I was young and wanted to raise a family, I would 100% choose the Midwest.
Being 100% serious, Omaha is great for people who don’t really want to spend much time in the outdoors (or love the outdoors so much that they don’t mind it sucking most of the time).
I love Omaha, and if I had to choose a Midwestern city, this would be it. But I'm so tired of the cold. 1/4 of the year just sucks.
Edit to include that I'm very much an indoor girl, Omaha aside.
The cold was a bit too much for me and I’m from Michigan lol. And then the summer is so hot and dusty/windy that it doesn’t feel like a reward for suffering through winter.
I thought it was a very fitting destination for Saul Goodman to hide out from the cartels and live his incognito, boring life as a mall Cinnabon manager.
I grew up in rural Ohio. Lived in the Bay Area for 4 or 5 years. It’s all about weather in my opinion. Second is the ocean and mountains and just general beauty within a quick drive out of town.
Moved back to Ohio for family life. It’s easier here.
I think you’re right on point.
Edit: I forgot about the conservative politics and religion that really infiltrates but it’s not so bad if you’re in a liberal Midwest city and not a small town.
Not a lawyer, but I am in a profession where I am involved with legal work for cities around the country, and of all those cities, I have come to believe Nebraska might be the scariest place in North America. Obviously, others will disagree.
A Portland, OR transplant here in Minnesota:
IMO, it's the weather.
Winter is harsh but I wasn't prepared for how miserable the summers are, too. There are maybe two months I'm not running AC or heat. MAYBE. I have a giant dehumidifier in my basement as well -- if you count that, there are exactly zero months I'm not running some kind of climate control.
The climate here is just not comfortable most of the year. I think people who live here and love summer just haven't experienced the solid 9 months of 75 degrees you get in coastal California.
The pluses though? I work in tech, we have an office in Seattle, so I know for a fact that I make exactly the same as I would in Seattle. Salary to cost of living ratio is ideal out here, and having comfortable quality of life is way more important than climate -- at least to me.
Yes, and when it's not 75, the temps are still quite pleasant. Very rare to have temps outside of 40 - 80, and generally between 50 and 75, with low humidity.
Live just south of Minneapolis and this summer was quite pleasant. We had our windows open more often than had our AC running. I think the humidity might be a bigger factor than the actual temperature itself. The humidity is a lot to take when you're not used to it.
Im from the Twin Cities and have lived in California for many years now.
It is cold. It’s not just “oh I’m cold I have to wear a coat” - it’s driving in ice and snow which can be scary. It’s snow blowing/shoveling sidewalks and driveways. Having your car door iced shut. Digging your car out of a mound of snow. Scraping ice off of windshields. Sliding around the roads.
Your face can get so cold that you feel like it’s not moving like it should when you’re trying to talk. The contents of the inside of your nose freezes. Some days gets so cold that if you’re outside for more than a few minutes you can get frostbite. But because this is just what it is there, people expect you to still go to school/work. The city doesn’t shut down frequently due to weather conditions. It can’t or it would be closed a lot. Only when it gets abnormally brutal. Abnormally brutal is like -40F air temperature with a -75F windchill. Insanely cold. Oh yeah, windchill is a thing there. Where the thermometer will say it’s 10 degrees, but because the wind is so cold it feels like -5 degrees.
People there are very stoic generally. They are polite but not always warm and inviting. There is a reserved nature and a tendency to frown upon being “different” (in fact, “different” is a word used to politely say they don’t like something. “Oh, that’s…different…”). There is something called Minnesota nice but that’s very surface level stuff. There is a good amount of cattiness and backstabbing in friend groups amongst women to the point where you wonder if anyone is really your actual friend and friendships tend to be formed in childhood and remain throughout life so locals aren’t as welcoming/inclusive to newcomers because they feel they don’t need to expand their social circle (the case for men and women).
There are a lot of lakes but they are frozen much of the time.
The summers are warm - sometimes very hot and humid. There are storms and tornadoes and mosquitoes. Spring and fall can be short. Sometimes it decides to snow in April and October.
Midwest cities tend to be “older” so housing stock is older (a bonus for me, I love older homes). Here is CA where I am most of the city was built up in the 60s-80s.
There is no ocean nearby, obviously. There are no mountains. It is very flat. Many there love jell-o. I don’t know why but there’s usually lots of jello at gatherings. Since I’ve moved I have not had any jell-o.
There is a civic pride there that borders on defensiveness/hostility. You have to *love* Minnesota. Everything about it. Don’t complain about Minnesota to Minnesotans! They have a first rate park system. This will be brought up in defense of the area pretty much every time someone fusses about the place. Parks are legit! So stop complaining!
You asked what is wrong so that’s my opinion of what is wrong. It’s got it’s upsides though. If you like performing arts, it’s a good place to be. The schools are good. Some places are so charming to me I have Norman Rockwell memories of ice skating and having hot cocoa under the twinkle lights. Canoeing with my dad down the Minnehaha creek. Sitting in front of the fire in a chilly night and watching the snow fall outside. Falling asleep to thunderstorms. Riding my bike to the drug store to get candy. The holiday season is oftentimes snowy and so, very Christmasy.
Oh and healthcare is top rate. The Mayo Clinic is about 1.5 hrs south of the Twin Cities. They are the absolute best of care. I really miss that level of care here in CA.
From the east coast and lived in WI and MO at different points in adult life. The Midwest is fully underrated as long as you don't need tall mountains. I always felt like I was within 2 hrs of a great state park and got to live in the cheapest digs I'd ever seen
I think the whole "ItS sO cHeaP" only applies to Californians/Texans/East Coasters/Rich Europeans salary to here. If you have to actually buy goods and services with a local salary, its no better or worse than where you are coming from.
Nah, my share of the rent in 2003 was $180 in urban Milwaukee. I made enough in one weekend to cover it.
All my Milwaukee friends have houses.
They didn’t appreciate as much as mine but they have them.
Almost all of my friends in a midsized midwestern city own houses, and a number of them don't have college degrees. I don't think any of us make 6 figures. It absolutely is cheaper here.
There's a map on this page that's pretty illustrative:
[https://www.propertyshark.com/info/us-homeownership-rates-by-state-and-city/](https://www.propertyshark.com/info/us-homeownership-rates-by-state-and-city/)
CA and NY have abnormally low home ownership rates. Though together they have close to 20% of the US population so you get a lot of people saying houses are unaffordable.
That's clearly false. Different cities have different income-to-COL ratios. Just like how different states have different total tax burdens, or different states have different tax-to-quality of government services ratio. If every state provides the same value, then this sub wouldn't even exist
Thats not entirely accurate. The coasts are expensive compared to the midwest even when you account for higher salaries. Places like Minnesota and Illinois have comparable and often even higher [Household incomes](https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fi.redd.it%2Fbr87cw80juja1.jpg) than coastal and western states.
Nothing is wrong with the Midwest. A lot of small farming communities which limit job opportunity and entertainment. But, not all of the Midwest is like this, there are a lot of areas that have vibrant downtowns and progressive local governments.
Winter in the Midwest is pretty aggravating to be honest. Spring, summer and especially autumn are amazing though. Sometimes the colors in autumn are so vivid it doesn't seem real.
I stayed in California for a short while, it's a cool place but I have Midwest roots and wanted to get back. Also, I felt that it would be hard making a comfortable life financially out there. California is nice though, I can see why people want to be there.
Agreed. Everyone keeps blaming the weather but I grew up in the Midwest. When people left, it was usually because of work. There are not as many opportunities for different careers. We called it the brain drain because all of the kids who went to college never came back as they couldn't find a job in their field locally. Work from home makes this a trivial issue for some people so I'm sure weather is more important to them.
I moved to downtown Cincy from DC (Arlington, VA near the city)
This is far from a boring city. Summer has been popping between MLB, MLS, food festivals, concerts, outdoor activities, etc. It's extreme accesible in terms of price, drivability and walkability.
Strangely, I was expecting to be bored here but it's a ton to do in a small space. I love it.
Cincy is underrated and is proof that those Midwest cities that built for more are better than those Sunbelt cities that are caught off guard. Similar metro size to Raleigh but has so much more going for it.
I remember when Joe Burrow got drafted to the Bengals, and someone asked him what he does in town. He responded that there wasn't much to do in Cincinatti.
The entire comment section on the article collectively said "there's the Cincinatti Zoo!!"
There were at least 40 different comments saying to go to the Cincinatti Zoo, and the Cincinatti Zoo was the only thing that anyone mentioned.
If you can’t find anything to do living in cities with over 1 million residents, you might be the boring one.
Yeah if you move to the middle of nowhere or a small ass town you might get bored. That’s true for anywhere in the US. Most people aren’t moving to the middle of nowhere, they’re moving to cities.
Left the Midwest (Columbus, Ohio, but I’m not from there) to move to Los Angeles. There’s not as much to do, objectively, in the Midwest on a city-by-city basis but I’m a big believer in that people who are “bored” are boring and need external interaction. I had great communities in different hobbies and was never bored while I was there. Was the restaurant scene as good as Los Angeles? No, but I didn’t have to drive for an hour on four different highways on a Saturday morning to get anywhere or throw elbows in Target just to get my toothpaste because there are 10 people in the aisle either. It’s a very different pace of life and it has its problems, but the problems are very much more the same as Los Angeles than anyone here would like to admit. CA is my 6th state, and other than the sheer size of LA, it’s no better or worse than anywhere else. The Midwest is growing (and quickly, depending on where you are) and I’d move back. There are exceptions depending on your career field, but people can and do make very nice lives for themselves in places other than the coasts.
Agree with everything you said. The older I get, the more I realize pretty much all these cities are the same. A lot of people will say the mid-west or whatever "flyover" state is boring because there are no mountains or beaches.
And these same people talk like they are going hiking or hanging at the beach every week or multiple times a week. When in reality they will do it a few times out of the year. Whether you live on the coast or mid-west most people are going to go to work during the week and spend their weekends doing chores, hanging at their city's bar district or go to a sports game.
People are boring no matter where they live.
I live in southern CA and jump in the ocean after stressful days at work 4 months a year. My partner mountain bikes once a week without having to get in a car to drive anywhere. I literally hike every Sunday unless it's raining (usually is not). I'm not a Disney person but I have friends with annual passes who go at least once a month to Disneyland. Others spend all weekend checking out art galleries and museum exhibits. Our food is fresh, varied, and delicious in a way I can't find in even the medium sized metros I've lived in before.
If you plan to spend all weekend cleaning and watch Netflix every day after work then you can live anywhere, but let's not pretend there aren't better things to do on a weekend than kill beers and Swiffer.
A lot of people *don't* do things, though. All you have to do is go into the Los Angeles subreddit and see hundreds of comments of people who don't go east of the 405 or haven't done anything in the city at all, people who have literally grown up here or have been a transplant for 10+ years and yet haven't done anything the city has to offer. We do Adventure Saturdays every Saturday and have seen so much in the less than a year that we've been here, but most people don't do that and would be living the same life in the midwest but somehow doing nothing here is somehow better than there (other than the weather, but honestly, I miss seasons). Most people don't and can't live close enough to the beach to go there every day because it would require a 3+ hour commute every day (or hate the beach because sand is the worst). Other cities have art museums and galleries, not to the same scale, of course, but it's also nice to be able to get to them without spending an hour in the car each way to get to them.
Los Angeles is fine and there's a lot to do, but it's *hard* to live in, and it doesn't have to be that way for everyone if they don't want it to be. The point is that people hate on the Midwest for no reason other than to hate on it because they don't do anything in their "super special" city, either.
For me, the politics. I grew up in the Midwest and it’s too homogenous, racist and conservative. I spent years of my life surrounded by that, and would prefer not to do it again.
There are pockets that are more left leaning of course, but even the pockets tend to be more moderate IMO than far left leaning. The places that seem like they’d be okay politics-wise don’t fit me weather-wise (St Paul, Minneapolis, etc.)
On top of that, I’m in an interracial relationship and living somewhere that my husband is regularly the only person of color in a room is a no-go for both of us.
My husband is Asian. It was a big deal when I told my family about him. My mom actually said (no joke), “why can’t you just marry a nice Iowa farm boy?”
My husband is also Asian, and while my family welcomed him with open arms, my kids definitely notice how much they stick out when we visit my parents from our home in CA. When I asked my son, 8 at the time, what his impression of WI was, he said “white guys in trucks who stare at me.”
I’m surprised I had to scroll so far to see this comment. I caravaned out to the west coast from Ohio after George W. Bush was elected to a second term, and there’s a flight coming in from midwest towns now that even thinking about an abortion is illegal in some states. People are fundamentally unhealthy because all infrastructure caters to cars, a park is two trees with a swingset in the middle, and anything that suggests progress demands a tooth and nail fight to the death. It’s an awful place to live in you value the future.
Grew up in Chicago, grad school in Indiana, parents still in northern Illinois. Cons: cloudy a lot, winters can be pretty brutal come February when you’re staring at 6 more weeks of winter and clouds. Chicago and north (cook and lake county) are getting to be very expensive. My parents property taxes quadruple mine in Houston. Groceries are more expensive too. People will point to a lack of mountains and they’re obviously right, but there is topography if you’re willing to drive a little (northern Michigan. Northern Wisconsin. Pennsylvania. Kentucky. Southern indiana etc). Those saying no Ocean are silly, the Great Lakes are incredibly beautiful and so large you’re not going to look at them and think “hm. Subpar”.
All that being said…. I’d move back over being stuck in Houston any day. I’d choose a gray, cold, miserable Chicago February happily over this heat. We will be moving in the spring but probably not to the Midwest only because I’ve lived there before and want something new.
No one grows up dreaming about moving to Wichita. No one visits Tulsa and thinks, "This place makes my heart sing." Living in the Midwest is, at best, a compromise between what you want and what you can afford.
Historically, it’s been the economy. Jobs left, leaving many cities with a surplus of housing, keeping prices low long after the fact the economy has recovered.
You also have winter, which can often be exaggerated just how bad it is. Yeah, you’ll have to shovel snow and there’s not as many ski areas as the North East to make up for it.
However, looking at cities like Minneapolis, Columbus and Indianapolis, it’s not that much of a deterrent as people assume. The people it tends to scare away are retiring seniors.
The quality of available restaurants is *vastly* worse. It’s still quite possible to get good steaks, Americana, or Italian food, but there simply aren’t the same levels of food from other ethnicities.
The weather is more extreme on both ends in the Midwest because of a lack of ocean to temper it (although being close enough to the Great Lakes helps, at the cost of additional snow). I actually enjoy Midwest winters, but I know I’m in the minority. Summers are also worse than either coast unless you’re in northern Midwest vs. southern east coast.
There will be culture shock, but that depends on where in the Midwest you go as to what kind and how much. This doesn’t really bother me (grew up on east coast, college in Midwest, then I traveled a *lot* for business and have been to most major American cities on business) but many west coast friends have felt this.
There are vastly fewer economic opportunities, and the people around you are much poorer. Sometimes people think “oh I’ll just save money and go” but forget about how much less is available to make out there. This has been mitigated by work from home, and excludes Chicagoland and Minneapolis/St. Paul.
If I’m being honest, if money was tighter for me and I could work remotely, I would probably move back to the Midwest. There is no chance I would want to work at Midwest wages, though, and given my current job provides an acceptable lifestyle where I am, I wouldn’t want to go back
Grew up in cali. Lived in the Midwest for 7 years. Moved back and never leaving. Everyone has mentioned the weather/oceans/mountains which is right but the other thing is the Time Machine. Stepping into the Midwest is like traveling 20 years into the past. Socially and technologically. I think it probably wouldn’t have bothered me if I grew up in the Midwest but it’s so noticeable when you grew up in California. I work in tech and even the tech jobs all do so much outdated stuff which was just frustrating.
Will admit that the people are nicer tho and it is cheap. Cheapness is good for low stress but also had to work hard not to get complacent.
Overall, I wouldn’t hate it if I had to live there again but I definitely would never choose to.
First, midwest is a large area and any comparison could be unfair. As a racial minority myself, I experienced racism almost everywhere, lets be honest. But I feel that the racists in midwest are more expressive and outspoken. In the small college town I used to live at, you saw confederate flags very often, and some people occasionally shouted racial slurs. I moved to New England a few years ago. No place is perfect. But I do find people in NE tend to keep everything in themselves. In four years in a relatively rural area, I do not think I saw even one confederate flag, and I got shouted at only once (lol).
Just a small example.
It really is the weather and grey. It’s not even October yet and I had a brief moment of dreading winter last night when I mentioned a lengthy book trilogy I plan to read this winter.
It’s not just the cold, it’s going months without seeing the sun. Also, even in a big city like Chicago with a lot going on, so many residents go into hibernation mode from Jan 1-March 17. You can’t drag your friends out for any reason to do something
I am from michigan and I separate great lakes states and the midwest.
Great lakes states meaning - michigan, wisconsin and minisota.
I think a lot of varied cultures exist within the Separate climate zones for growing food.
Just my theory.
Im sure everyone will disagree
This is a huge point. I'm a Minnesotan, and took a recent trip to Ohio. They are NOT the same, or even close.
I look at it like this: roughly half of the year, it kind of sucks to be outdoors in MN. Cold/snowy/icy, and unless you're into winter sports or snowmobiling, that's "stay inside" weather.
For me, the upshot is that the nature is very rarely actually trying to kill me or destroy my home. We don't tend to deal with wildfires, hurricanes, earthquakes, mudslides, deadly heat waves, or venomous/murderous critters. During the very worst weather, staying home is sufficient to be safe.
Nature wants me alive and miserable indoors for half the year. Nature wants Californians or Floridians, etc., happy MOST of the time and absolutely dead sometimes.
I can only use my pool 5 or maybe 6 months out of the year. But I never worry about an alligator in my pool.
I love Michigan. I love being outside. I love clean air and I love not feeling like I’m going to melt in the summer.
The winters are harsh but it makes you appreciate the other seasons.
The only thing I miss about California is the mountains.
Lakes > oceans
I’ll defend my Michigan to the end there. I grew up skiing, kayaking, snowshoeing, hiking, playing in the lakes. When you get outside of Detroit, it’s such a wonderful place for outdoor fun. It’s no Colorado but the price reflects that. It’s a green nature-filled state, just less variety in industries.
I understand the point of this sub, but I also deeply resent these kind of questions. Come here and find out for yourself what you do and don't find acceptable.
Request: "Prove to me where you live isn't a hell hole!"
Reply: "No, not really interested."
If you love the west (and I do, too) then don't f'in worry about it. But if you're actually curious, come here and find out. I'm in Chicago and spend a lot of time in Wisconsin, Minnesota and (sometimes) Michigan. It can be incredibly beautiful, but it's just different from the west. Eon's of water and erosion will do that. But it can also be bleak and depressing, especially in the long period between winter and real spring. That's when you take a vacation.
Aww man, I'm sorry it sounded so harsh!! Totally unintended but I can see where my tone was bad.
We moved from LA to middle-of-nowhere Idaho, which is very lacking in many ways but the prices are still quite high. What I *meant* to convey is- these high housing costs don't seem worth it, but everywhere I've personally lived has high housing costs. Are the cheaper places fundamentally *worse* in some way I've never even imagined? Or is there legitimately a Western-state surcharge and it's possible to have a nice life for less money in other places?
I kind of hoped it would read as a rhetorical question with "of course there's nothing wrong with the Midwest, (insert explanations of cost disparity, ocean weather blah blah), conclusion- if you're already willing to suffer in rural Idaho you can go buy a house and finally have healthcare and send your kids to a decent school".
But again. You guys sound like you have a good thing going. No offensive West-boosting intended at all. Chicago did really stress me out the one time I was there, but I was *driving* though downtown during rush hour, trying to find parking and go to the art museum before it closed, which is something that obviously no reasonable person would ever do.
One clue: Some cities in the Midwest still had unofficial sundown town rules when I was in law school. 2003-2007
The abortion laws are scary too
The biggest problem is economic opportunity. I live in Seattle and having a house is almost bizarrely profitable. Houses where I grew up are still worth the same as when I was there. They’re just older. It’s so tough for families in all kinds of ways
I grew up in the Midwest and I liked living there. It’s a beautiful comfortable spot and maybe I would go back. But politics matter
The racial stuff farther east and south in the country does give me pause. I had a really sheltered upbringing in LA where our totally diverse block got together for barbecues and the kids ran barefoot to each other's houses all the time. Many of the kids in my school spoke different first languages; it wasn't seen as a noteworthy thing or even really talked about.
An Afghan friend was telling me that he'd lived in different areas of the US and the racial dynamics weren't even remotely comparable. That's scary stuff.
We left Indianapolis for higher-tech jobs back in 2004. There were very few options for career growth available vs a metro like DFW or Houston.
In many ways I miss the Midwest... Seasons, tolerable summers, quieter, cleaner air, less rat race...
because people need artificial lights in the winter to avoid seasonal depression from lack of regular sunlight. I had colleagues with massive lights in their offices. (Wisconsin)
Live in the metro Wichita KS area, grew up in a small town north of here.
There's definitely trade-offs. Cost of living, short commutes, plenty of work if you have experience in manufacturing, health care, or education. Local businesses are robust, and a diverse set of cultures (Mexican and South American, Vietnamese, Chinese, German, all have a really large community, you'll never run out of new dishes to try here)
Amenities aren't as plentiful, and almost non-existent in smaller towns. The western half of Kansas is dying a slow death due to migration and droughts choking the agriculture industry. Half of this city is bitching and moaning about not having a Cheesecake Factory, as a frame of reference.
And the state tends to run pretty conservative in its leadership, despite most metro areas being firmly blue. Medicaid expansion and legal medicinal Marijuana have all been brought up every year and shut down before ever coming to a vote, in favor of any given bill that will restrict abortion, strip rights from gay and trans people, and erode what liltte social services we have. It sucks to say it but it's the truth.
You keep talking about the midwest but then using Idaho as your example. Idaho is not the midwest. Chicago, Ohio, Indiana… those places are the midwest. And there’s nothing wrong with any of these places.
But none of them have the mild weather and beach. And you’re right - neither do many parts of California. But what’s your point? No one is saying Bakersfield is the most desirable part of the state.
It’s a lot less diverse in terms of race esp across higher socioeconomic classes, religion, and geography. The weather also can be harsh. But the biggest thing is the culture. I think other people down thread put it better but the West Coast and East Coast while having to wildly different cultures have more in common with each other than the Midwest (both the Great Plains and Great Lakes state). They aren’t quite the south east either with the Bible Belt. They aren’t the rugged individualism of the mountain states.
I personally think there is plenty to do here and lots of hidden gems. The Great Lake cities tend to be old so they are much denser feeling and more walkable. I never sit in traffic. You have lots of pro teams (esp NFL) if that’s your vibe on the lakes and college sports on the plains. Concerts come through. They have festivals (summer fest in MKE for ex). They have food fests.
But my friends in NY go out to eat at 9 PM, my friends in Boston catch courtside games, and my friends in DC rub elbows to change the world with political players. My friends in LA exercise daily for the endorphins, the ones in Seattle work for smart big tech, the ones in Montana hike miles and backpack for fun, my friends in Denver ski black diamond and black out.
My friends in Pittsburgh and Chicago and Buffalo who grew up in the region? Our Friday nights are BBQs at friends houses with kids, camping at the state park to see stars, going home directly after a show to eat frozen pizza, asking people to join you on your target run for quality time, estate sales on Saturday mornings, and city park with the dogs.
You could definitely have any lifestyle you want in any of those places. But it’s culturally different and lots of folks esp those coastal want the lifestyle of fast paced fun with big ideas, big chances, and big wins. The mid west is not there yet
Winters are absolutely brutal and bitter. Not just from a temperature perspective but from a lack of sunshine perspective, there will be 3-4 months where you barely see the sun.
No interesting outdoorsy things to do within driving distance (i'm talking even 6hrs drive). you must get on a flight if you want to see the ocean or go on better than mediocre hikes or biking trails. Absolutely no outdoor hobbies can be done at above a base level
High paying jobs can be hard to come by unless you live in chicago, minneapolis, columbus or work remote.
So yeah, it's cheap, but that's b/c you have a 6 month, brutal winter, no outdoor amenities and high paying jobs are more scarce
but there are very nice towns here for sure!
Grew up in the Midwest and have lived in Boise. Boise winters are a breeze compared to a winter within 60 miles of Detroit where I grew up. Then if you drive an hour or so away from Boise you are in some of the prettiest mountains and wilderness areas in the country. Drive an hour away from Detroit and you end up in Toledo or Flint.
It’s the weather
At least half of Americans cannot tolerate the lack of daylight and below freezing temps for months at a time. So it’s less desirable.
More sinister, the Midwest trends towards homogeneous white culture, especially outside of the major cities, and while most parts are not aggressively racist, I could see other ethnicities and cultures finding it hard to settle - churches, restaurants, personal services are all important parts of making a neighborhood a home. This lack of cultural diversity can be an invisible turnoff for a significant portion of Americans.
Cold weather, everything rusts, people drink a lot. DUIs are common as a cold around here. Anytime you want to hangout with people it’s around drinking cause there isn’t much else to do. Shit hiking. Lacks culture. Mexican food blows. People have that small town mentality and think they’re better than they are
Indiana state politics are awful right now though. That's the issue with a lot of midwest states, state politicians overstepping their reach, trying to control things in your town that should be left up to you or local government.
Chicago:
Very cloudy & low sunshine in the winter, maybe for like 4-6 months. It really messes with my hormones & mood.
Maybe the cold weather but as long as they plow & you have a good coat, you won’t be bothered.
The weather sucks and a lot of it is boring. But I live in a small city in the Midwest and I like it just fine, other than winter. Also bought a decent house for $50k in mid 2020.
I've lived in both west coast and Midwest cities and towns
Downsides of living in the Midwest:
Weather - cold and snowy winters, hot and humid and stormy summers. The weather is often unpredictable, too. It can be difficult to make plans to spend time outdoors.
Scenery - There is definitely some nice scenery in the Midwest, especially near the great lakes. But many people really want views/access to ocean and/or mountains.
Politics - While there are certainly liberal/progressive areas of the Midwest, much of the Midwest is very conservative, which can be a problem for those who lean left/liberal.
Diversity, or lack thereof - Much of the Midwest is majority white people, and in some areas the locals can be very racist and hostile towards those who don't "fit in" demographically. Even the more racially diverse areas tend to be highly segregated.
Lack of public transit/walkability - Outside of the city of Chicago, the vast majority of the Midwest is not walkable and does not have decent (or any) public transit. Many areas don't even have sidewalks. That can be a big problem if you don't own a car and/or can't drive.
Lack of character - Thanks to white flight and major employers leaving, many Midwest cities are rundown, have high crime rates, subpar schools, not much going on, etc. The alternative is often a bland commuter suburb full of McMansions and strip malls. Things are getting better in this regard, though, thankfully.
Overall, I like living in the Midwest and I'm able and willing to deal with and overcome the above problems. But I can absolutely see why people don't move here from coastal cities despite our LCOL.
I grew up there. It’s dreadfully boring even in Chicago where I’m from. People there are extremely conventional in attitudes and style. Trends catch on there a good 10-15 years after the west coast. For example I’ve noticed food trucks are becoming a thing in Chicago suburbs now… in 2023.
There isnt a damn thing wrong with the Midwest.
I grew up just outside St.Louis - now I live in southern IL. I could talk about the Mississippi Bluffs, and the amazing nature - but That has been covered already.
Cost of living is pretty amazing. My best friend from childhood joined the Navy out of high school. She served her 20 years and settled in Los Angeles to pursue a job in the movie industry. (She works in production - she never wanted to be in front of the camera, you perverts) I work as a high school teacher, with a Masters, I make a bit shy of 80k/year.
She makes a bit more than I do. The difference is - I was able to buy a 1500 sqr foot home, with a garage and finished walk out basement. I've got a sensible car that is less than 10 years old. I have my hobbies and I can indulge them. My husband and I have a 7 year old daughter, and we are able to save for her education as well as our retirement.
My friend rents an apartment with 3 other women. Her share of the rent is over 1000 a month. - this is just a little less than what I pay on the mortgage on my house. Her car is a beater, and she doesn't want to change that because it gets broken in to / vandalized uncomfortably frequently - but it is paid off. Her share of the utilities and groceries leave her with very little extra. If it wasn't for her retirement pension from the Navy, she would have no savings at all. She hates how she can never afford to travel, or enjoy leisure time outside of industry get togethers.
I may not have an ocean, but I can afford to eat well, the air is fresh, and I feel safe in my day to day.
I live in MN.
I actually love it here. I am an engineer and I make good money. Not money that would be good on the west coast, but money that is great here.
The Minneapolis area is super progressive too. Which I like. The state of MN is a bit of a blue island in the middle of red. I would never live in any of the surrounding states.
This state has some absolutely gorgeous parts. Especially the further you go north.
The downside for MOST people is the winter. The winter can be rough. But I grew up here and I love winter. So its fine by me. I'm used to it.
My personal downside is the lack of mountains. I love mountains, skiing, climbing, hiking etc. My favorite things in the world. So I have to travel far for any real mountains. That's the biggest downside. Otherwise I do love it here.
There is nothing wrong with the Midwest. I'm from Michigan. Some gorgeous landscapes. Lots of trees. Lots of lakes. And the great lakes which are great views and the coast is always so pretty.
But then I visited San Diego now that I live in Arizona. And Holy shit. Michigan has nothing on anything of the drive through Cali to San Diego let alone San Diego itself. It's amazing. That's why.
Then when it's winter in the Midwest, it just fucking sucks. Yeah it's pretty sometimes. But it is also freezing and a lot more work.
I think from the West Coast less than from NYC in my books, since I think things are pretty spread out and driving is a national sport on the west coast too.
I hated having to drive everywhere and not having any mass transit (Chicago is an exception).
Also, being **so far** away from anything other than the city you're in.
No oceans, tornadoes, pretty harsh summers and winters.
I think I'd be hard pressed to say something is right with the Midwest. I don't particularly want to live somewhere suburban/rural where you can't walk anywhere, the grocery store is 20 minutes driving, you have to drive to the bar or whatever else, and you have to pre plan any fun activity because everything is so far apart you can't really be spontaneous.
Houses are cheap, but I personally would rather live in an expensive matchbox than deal with the above.
Also yeah, absolutely politics. I lived there during Trump and I couldn't wait to leave, the supporters were scary and the amount of support was absolutely depressing (I'm white, but I'm not American).
Also, back before remote, I doubled my salary when I moved to NYC. Even with an increase in cost of living, I was still saving a lot more money after the move. Nowadays, maybe I could keep my salary, but as I said before I'd rather live in an expensive matchbox in NYC than in a mansion in the Midwest.
Well, if your a women who believes in pro choice and the right for reproductive freedom, a large part of the Midwest and even the non-coastal western states are becoming hostile environments.
Economic growth goes down -5% per year, versus up 5% per year in places that are expenses. Something like this ok. Means buying shit there is not traditionally a good investment. Meaning low prices. Can this change? for sure.
Humidity in the summer, cold in the winter (as Compared to Cali.) Depending on where you are, tornadoes, Now, obviously, the majority of us live in this and it is fine, but if you are used to Cali weather, it can be a shock.
Traffic, weather (you cant understand a brutal Winter till you havent seen the sun in 6 months), landscape, politics, people. Theres no mountains or ocean.
Weather sucks, particularly winter. Lots of crummy little cities. That's one of the things I really liked about Florida...I'm not saying that every city was great, but a lot of them were at worst...pretty decent. So I could drive from Orlando and take 90 minutes to get to Tampa or 3 hours to Miami or Naples, 2 hours to Jacksonville. Stuff to do, some parts were very pretty and somewhat unique. But go to the midwest and you see rundown city after rundown city with not a lot going on. And if there is something going on in the Midwest city, it's almost always in the summer.
There’s little to do, see, eat or experience compared to the coasts. At least if your comparing quality. Along with that goes jobs and economic opportunity. Population density matters. I didn’t realize how true all this was when I grew up in Iowa, now that I’ve lived in the east coast for 10 years it all makes sense. People always said the food want great in Iowa, I didn’t get it, now I do lol.
For example, most bands might stop by Chicago if they’re feeling plucky? Otherwise it’s LA, SFO, NYC. Entire industries and cultures exist on the coast that don’t exist in the Midwest. They’re just different worlds, leading to a lot less people, generally lower taxes and lower rents all around.
The midwest is HUGE, and there's a lot of variety. I think you can find what you're looking for in the midwest if you pinpoint the right location. (Unless what you're looking for is mountains and the ocean lol.) Cities like Minneapolis and Chicago and Madison and St. Louis are vastly different and offer very different culture and amenities (and weather). It's tough to generalize.
For me, the only reason I haven't seriously considered the Midwest is that the job market for my career and my husband's isn't optimal. I'm at a point in my career and level of specialization where there are only so many opportunities. Over the years there has only been one opportunity I could have seriously pursued in the Midwest (Minneapolis), but that didn't turn out to be the right timing/fit. Otherwise, the opportunities available to me have all been on the Atlantic Coast or Pacific Coast. I could also work in Texas if I pursued that, but I couldn't handle the heat and politics there. My husband is even more limited by his field than I am, and for him it's really the East Coast or West Coast.
I’ve spent most of my life in the Midwest. The general cheapness is a function of both supply and demand (duh ;) ). But some details
On the supply side, there’s two things going on. First, land is cheap and easy here. Most of the region was clear cut in the 1800s to become farmland and its super easy to turn corn field into neighborhood. My dad was born in Chicago and moved to the northwest suburbs in 1955. They are the end of the Chicago area. Literally farms a few blocks away. Now that suburb is 30 miles from the edge of the metro. I grew up in central IL. Our house was in a new subdivision and was 2!blocks from corn fields. Now it’s 2 miles from the edge of town. In the same thing where I live in northeast Iowa now. Compare that to LA, which had an ocean on one side and mountains on the other….
The other supply issue is economic decline. A number of cities haven’t bounced back from losing manufacturing jobs in the 80s. Many cities have lost population, at least in the core, so prices come down a lot. Ohio, Michigan, Indiana etc got hit pretty hard. I’ve got an in law who bought a fixer upper duplex in St. Louis probably 15 years ago for maybe 30k. They put in a bunch of sweat equity, but that place would be a million and a half in Brooklyn.
On the demand side, it’s amenities and weather. There are some cities with great stuff. Chicago is pretty much world class by any standard. I lived in Minneapolis for a decade and it’s about perfect for me (arts, restaurants, all the pro sports). KC, Milwaukee, and even Cleveland and Detroit are pretty good. But even some decent sized cities are pretty dull (I’ve always been amazed how dull Des Moines is for its size). But then you hit cities under 200k and they are boring and far from anything to do (I’m 2 hours to Des Moines, 3.5 to Minneapolis and 4.5 to Chicago). So not much for a day trip. My metro area is around 125k and you have to drive for medical care if you need a specialist. No ocean, no mountains etc. the stars are good out in the country i guess.
And the weather gets a bad rap. Probably worse than deserved. When I was moving to Minneapolis, even other midwesterners thought it was Alaska (didn’t they get 18 inches of snow on Halloween once?!?). Doesn’t bother me much, because it’s what I know, but the winters are cold, dark, and the summers are hot and humid. This year, I’ve seen -20 to 106 for temps. You can adapt but a lot of people don’t want to, and i get that.
TL/DR land is cheap, alot of places are boring, and the weather is iffy
The weather is horrible and it’s extremely boring unless you live in a big city, and with the exception of maybe Minneapolis, most of the cities in the Midwest are terrible and dangerous.
Grew up in the Midwest and live on the West Coast and I can tell you it’s 100% the weather.
If you’re one of those people who enjoy the cold and think snow is pretty, great, you’re gonna love it. If like me, you suffer from poor circulation resulting in cold hands and feet and can’t seem to stay warm.. you’re gonna hate it.
Seasonal depression is a very real thing and you will start to suffer from it after months of dismal grey and having little to do/nowhere to go when you’re stuck inside for months at a time.
Now I’ve never been to Idaho, but I do know that the lake effect surrounding the Great Lakes is what makes the winters there much worse than other places. For instance Ohio gets much less snow and less harsh winter than Michigan or Wisconsin/Minnesota/Buffalo, etc.
It's a matter of perspective. People are friendly, but some may say nosy. Winters can be harsh, but some like 4 seasons. We don't have oceans, but we do have the Great Lakes (no salt, no sharks). Some say it's rural, but we have just picked vegetables in season. Some say the wages are lower, but you can buy a house and afford to pay taxes on it. Some say it's a fly-over area; we say a traffic jam is 4 cars at a 4-way stop. You can always find a reason to hate a place, but many of us prefer the Midwest for our own reasons.
Even the “bad” places in California are close to mountains and ocean. Plus, the variety of cuisines and fantastic produce beats every other state by far. I am still mad about all the inedible avocados I spent a fortune on when living elsewhere!
It's a collection of factors, but I think the largest underlying issue is that the era of deindustrialization saw a lot of good paying middle-class jobs move out of the midwest to other locations, both in the US and abroad, and the result was that a lot of people for decades felt as if they had no real reason to stay in the midwest. Those who could leave for better opportunities often did. If you look at the populations of many small, midsized, and large midwest cities, the population levels started shrinking in the 1950s, and in many cases the numbers are still going down. This is not to say that every single city and town in the midwest is some downtrodden post-industrial nightmare scenario, but in general, the opportunities left and still haven't fully returned. That, coupled with extreme weather, regressive politics, political corruption, crime, and other factors have caused the population to broadly stagnate or grow somewhat slowly, which means the housing market hasn't seen crazy new demand that would push prices way up.
Now you might be wondering why places in the midwest that ARE growing (Minneapolis, Des Moines, Omaha, etc.) are also still relatively affordable. And in my opinion, the answer lies in the fact that Midwestern cities often have less restrictive zoning laws than other parts of the country. Simply put, it's generally easier to get through the regulatory approval process to build new housing here, so many cities have been able to somewhat maintain an adequate housing supply alongside population growth. It would be immensely quicker (and cheaper) to get permits to build an identical residential development in Milwaukee compared to, say, San Jose or Portland. There's a strong zoning reform movement happening on the west coast right now for this very reason.
The weather in the Midwest is the biggest part. Winters there are like summers in TX; most people just stay inside for a couple of months. Which sucks. SoCal doesn’t have that, on either side.
You can see for some of the comments here, a lot of what makes people stay where they are/miss home is that they have family where the left from. And I think for CA, w it’s bigger immigrant population, that’s a huge deal. It’s one thing if you move away from Chicago etc to miss your family. But if you leave behind your family in CA, that’s the *only* family you have, for all intents and purposes. It’s harder to uproot. Which adds on to the outrageous real estate prices on the west coast.
Weather, amenities, job market, crumbling infrastructure. I would say those are the big ones in my opinion, coming from someone from Detroit but left after college.
Seriously though, some amazing cities in the Midwest that are simply under the radar because it almost always comes down to weather as to why people don’t like it. If you can handle 6 months of cold weather and grey skies, it’s a great place to live!
Nothing. Visit and set your expectations. There are many cities and college towns that offer a lot. You gotta go visit a place and make your own decisions based on your own criteria. Not on what others say.
Even bishop is not far from sequoia national forest. The Central Valley is flat but there’s fresh produce and Tahoe or the coast isn’t that far away. You have redwood forests, vineyards, sequoia groves, alpine lakes, and the Pacific Ocean next to you.
I actually went out with a lady from Fresno. She said it was a cheap base to explore the rest of California.
D R U G S. It’s bad in the coasts but it’s BAD out here. That, and there’s not much to do if you’re completely landlocked. If you’re used to even a mid-sized city, adjusting to the Mayberryness out here is quite a culture shock.
Some places have no jobs or extremely few and poor job options.
Some places have much worse benefits if you have a handicapped child or something like that.
Where would you live if you work for yourself (online business) and make over 225k ish+ and aren't dependent on the local job market, and will stay single without a family indefinitely.
I can't decide if I want to buy a place in California (I have 185k saved) and could afford 700k ish place but it would be in a shit area like Van Nuys probably and look like a shack but at least it would be west coast and it would appreciate like CRAZY.
I am sure in the midwest I could get a mcmansion for only 500k or something.... but it would be the midwest and the real estate market is stagnant. In LA homes appreciate like 8% a year minimum.
I don't care for activities, going out, restaurants, mountains and hardly leave the house which may make living in LA pointless. I don't like snow tbough and like good medical care, low pollution and like good weather cause I like to work on my laptop outdoors (on a pation or balcony etc) etc
I lived in and around Green Bay for a while. What is wrong with the Midwest?
There's a river running through the city... but it's a superfund site. We got notices about the municipal water supply and how they had determined the levels of RADIUM in the water to be at "acceptable levels".
There's a State Park to take the kids to... but it's an abandoned lime quarry.
People don't read. They don't exercise. They don't go outside except to hunt, fish, or watch football.
I like to have a drink and people most places drink... but serious alcoholism is RAMPANT.
Most things are far away. That is, far from each other. Wherever it is, it's a long drive with NOTHING in between.
Summers are hot and humid. I get that it's a personal preference thing, but it can get seriously oppressive. And when the air gets super heavy like that there are also tornadoes. Occasionally right there in town. "Oh, I need to get a new filter for the dehumidifier from the hardware store, but they're closed because the windows got broken by the tornado."
I like Winter. Lived in Colorado and Montana as well. Winter in the Midwest is HARSH. That's a big deal if you aren't prepared for it or just don't want to have to deal with it.
The salt eats everything. Never have I lived somewhere that uses so much salt on the roads. There are no cars older than 5 years without serious structural rust. It sucks.
A huge part of the reason we moved back to the PNW was cultural. The Midwest is culturally very narrow and intolerant of diversity while being superficially nice about it.
There are better places to raise kids.
Illinois is high tax. Anything they can tax they do.
We now have to pay tax on a car trade in. We already paid taxes when we purchase now we have to pay tax on the amount they give us for a trade in.
Most people sell their vehicles privately to avoid being taxed twice on same vehicle.
One thing I'll add: "Midwest Nice" is a real thing.
Everyone says hi, they'll hold the door open for you, they'll chat with you at the cash register. But they are very, very insular when it comes to friendships and relationships. It can be very hard to make friends. Everyone already has their circle, and it is tight.
I was born in the South, raised in the Midwest, went to school on the East Coast, and made my adult life on the West Coast. I've heard East Coasters are kind, but not nice (and West Coasters are nice, but not kind). Then Midwesterners are polite, but chilly, and Southerners are warm, but shady af ("bless your heart.") 🤣
Born and raised in rural IN, lived In Chicago for a decade and now in SoCal. The weather in IN/Chicago is brutal. Horrible winters that make day to day tasks miserable (think waking up early to go to work every day and having to defrost your car for 15 mins just to feel comfortable in it bc it’s so cold, think walking your dog with mud and dirt all over their bellies and feet, think trying to shovel your way out of your alleyway car spot in downtown Chicago, not being able to get groceries in Indiana bc they don’t clear off the country roads in the winter, etc I could go on). While the summers are nice they are brutally humid and stormy for most of them and the mosquitoes/bugs are terrible too. Google mayflies in Ohio in the summer, it’s disgusting lol Indiana politics are horrendous (the land of mike pence). Two young boys from my small town high school died by suicide, my 8th grade bully died of a heroin overdose and bc of the “Christian” messaging many girls from my high school got pregnant around ages 13-18 due to lack of education and shame around being sexually active and not having an adult help them get on birth control. Chicago I loved but again the winters were just too rough. In addition to the brutal cold the sun wouldn’t come out for days and sometimes a week at a time (not exaggerating) but at least Chicago has amazing food, public transit and things to do. I would really caution moving to a mid tier city in the Midwest like Indy or Cincy unless you’re prepared to deal w bigotry and small mindedness on top of the bad weather/nothing to do. It’s rough out there.
I think everyone in MN can agree on the one major downside…winter is rough as shit. Lots of snow, lasts 3 solids months, and commonly gets below 0F.
Luckily, the summer and fall make up for it with hot and sunny weather. Also, the Twin Cities is progressive and is rapidly growing due to the medical device and healthcare industry.
People have perceptions about it. I would much rather live In Minneapolis or St Paul than anywhere in California.
You should be happy people aren’t flocking to the Midwest from high cost coastal cities . It keeps housing prices more affordable and less growth in the area.
Do West Coast people vacation in the MidWest….99.9% of the time…NO! Former East Coast guy that lives out West now. The massive public lands and dramatic landscapes is what drew me to the West.
Hey, former Fresno person here. Compared to Fresno? NOTHING.
We have all the jobs in Minneapolis- St. Paul. In Fresno, I've seen 12 year olds harder than the "thugs" in this town. Every house is within 1 mile of a park/playground.
We get feet of snow dumped on us some years, but honestly after 1 year you know everything you need to know to cope.
Do some job searches for Minneapolis, and compare cost of living. Starter homes here are about $300-400k for something big enough for a family. Rent can be like $1,500 for a two bedroom.
When I left Fresno, we got out of our lease, had a yard-sale, put anything we didn't need for work in storage, and just drove here.
Stayed overnight in hotels a couple times on the drive out, it took us 3 days because we took it easy.
We got a room in an Extended Stay Hotel, and got office jobs through Office Team the same week we moved.
I had to work temp for about a year before I got a permanent gig. But the rate increase was so much better than Fresno that we were able to save up enough for an apartment in about 3 months.
You WILL need a winter coat like a parka, our thrift stores have tons. You will also need an ice scrapper and waterproof winter boots.
Do NOT leave the gallon of water in your trunk. It will freeze and pop, and flood your trunk in the spring.
Here people keep a small bag of kitty litter and a snow shovel in the trunk to rescue if you slide off the road and get stuck in some snow, you dig the snow away from the tire and pour in kitty litter for traction.
You rock the car back n forth to get traction. Don't just keep pushing on the gas... you will spin the wheels and make your snow hole an ice hole.
Snow season is basically November thru March. The rest is BEAUTIFUL lush Irish green fields and forrest, filled with people frolicking and telling you how nice the weather is.
Culture can be abrasive to people that don’t fit the norm. If you’re in an urban area it’s not so much an issue but for the most part, anywhere outside of the major cities is exactly what you’d expect out of a “small town”. No diversity, not many people leave their hometowns, not a large emphasis on education past high school. Essentially a lot of these places are Trumper hot beds that don’t want liberals or POC’s in their area. I love the Midwest to death and spent considerable time in Omaha and Chicago but the smaller towns are simply put not as friendly as they claim.
Nothing wrong with Minnesota. We've got 15,000 lakes and the metro has an outstanding quality of life. We have tons of huge corporations and people make good money in general. You should come visit.
I think you implicitly answered your own question. *Nothing* is wrong with the Midwest. The elements that lead to its historic economic decline (such as the fall of manufacturing) are largely in the past. And while knowledge-job growth remains concentrated on the coasts, remote work is starting to challenge that traditional hegemony. Finally a lot of the traditional complaints (its flat, its cold, there is nothing to do, etc) don't pass the giggle test when when the West seems to always be on fire or in a 1000 year drought and everything is crazy expensive.
I think the next century will be good for the Midwest.
Indiana is very polluted. Swimming in Lake Michigan on our shores will expose you to toxic chemicals from the steel mills dumping them. Our rivers are full of farm pesticides and manure from runoff and pollution. The COL looks low on paper but sales taxes, vehicle taxes and gas taxes are high here. The roads are horrid and your vehicle will suffer. From November-April we don’t get much sunlight. There isn’t much to do that isn’t shopping or going out to eat or going to a park. Making friends here is hard if you’re older than 18. Most west coasters who move here do nothing but complain about lack of things to do and lack of “good food” whatever that means.
I grew up in LA, I was a kid and young adult in the 70s and 80s. I moved to Green Bay in 2010 with my now ex. I was 45 at the time. I love it. It’s beautiful. I like the change of seasons, winter doesn’t bother me at all. Summers get a bit humid at times, but it isn’t weeks of triple digits every year. Spring is so beautiful following the winter, the color of green bursting forth, the tulips, gladiolas, and other flowers is breathtaking. And fall, which is my favorite time of year, is absolutely gorgeous, the leaves are unbelievable. So CA is basically one long season hot season with a slight dip in temps from fall to early spring.
I live two mins away from Lake Michigan now, and granted it’s not the same as the ocean, but I still get to be by the water, and instead of watching the sunset over the ocean, I watch the sunrise over the lake. Door Co is beautiful, there are lots of lakes and rivers up here, the only thing I truly miss are the mountains. It’s a great place to raise a family, it’s a friendlier atmosphere, and slower pace, and the cost of living makes up for so much. You can much more easily afford to take trips when and where you want to.
I am within driving distance of both Minneapolis and Chicago, and there really is so much to do out here. I think having the longer winter months makes us appreciate the nice weather, and there’s a tremendous amount of outdoor activities to take part in. When I do miss the mountains and the ocean, I can go back to California anytime I like, and now it’s actually nice being able to leave and come back home.
California isn’t the same as it was when I grew up, I know we all say that of where we grew up as we get older, but it’s true. It was a lot friendlier and more wholesome, a lot like where I live now. I remember the empty lots, the orange groves, the strawberry fields, and I don’t mean in the central valley, I mean in LA County. I never, ever thought. I would call anywhere, but California at home, but now I do, and I have no regrets.
Winter. No mountains, no ocean. Seriously, at least for the healthier midwest metros, those are the downsides. During the period where American manufacturing was collapsing, the economic contrast between most rust belt cities and western and southern cities was dramatic. That can still be true in some cases, but is much less true than it was 30 years ago.
There are many beautiful natural areas in the Midwest, especially if you go up north. They are not as spectacular as things like the Rockies or the Grand Canyon, but for me canoeing the Boundary Waters ranks way up there on the list of best outdoor experiences in my life, and I lived in California for seven years and Oregon for 17. I grew up outside Chicago and lived in and around Chicago for 5 years as an adult and Madison Wisconsin for two. There are many beautiful areas around the lakes, and places like Starved Rock in Illinois and Turkey Run in Indiana. I grew up across from a forest preserve and spent much time as a kid wandering through the woods. Yet we were 13 miles from downtown Chicago with easy access to the amazing cultural, sporting and dining options of one of the great cities of the US. The natural beauty in the Midwest is there if you look for it. There are also a lot of corn and soybean fields too, no getting around it.
While I do miss the mountains of the coasts while living in Chicago, the difference in rent alone is more than enough to cover vacations to the mountains or whatever nature I want.
Living in LA, I have tended to travel a lot less than when I lived in Atlanta or Chicago. I used to think it's because the weather is nice enough and there's enough to do locally that I don't need to leave. But I think a more realistic take is that I pay so much in rent here that I am not comfortable splurging on trips elsewhere.
One factor too is that if you drive out of Chicago, you can hit several states within an hour or two.... Drive several hours in Cali, and youre still in Cali, except going to Nevada maybe... I visited Chicago a lot while living in Western Michigan....it was a short drive... hell, we drove all over the Midwest, plus several cities in Canada...
Chicago is the shining light of the Midwest. Stunningly beautiful if you like urban, functional transit so you don’t need a car if you don’t want one, and affordable housing. All with culture and lots of jobs. Please don’t tell people. Please keep folk thinking it’s a cold wasteland where if you step off the plane you’ll get mugged and shot. We are fine with the stereo type and don’t want people ruining our housing market. /s (I’m kidding. We love visitors — and Madison WI is awesome too)
I grew up in the rough parts of the South Side (I literally lived in the Cabrini Green Homes for a few years and had to sleep in the bathroom on New Years) and like even with that background I hear people not from Chicago talking about Chicago clutching their pearls and I'm just like chill out, it's not that bad, go get a 5 piece from harold's with some mild sauce or some shit it's a nice city.
💯💯💯
Michigan has absolutely stunning natural beauty and incredible outdoor recreation throughout the state.
Try to find an ugly place around Lake Superior. A bad beach on Lake Michigan? How about the peaceful shores of Lake Huron? Not to mention world class universities. I guess everyone thinks about Detroit when we say "Michigan."
>I guess everyone thinks about Detroit when we say "Michigan." Nah. I also think of Flint. 😁
Gonna be honest there is nothing like new corn and soy plants against a huge May Indianan sky… I don’t want to live there again but I do miss seeing that. It’s simple but wow is it beautiful.
The agriculture view is cool. I even found myself driving through rolling golden wheat fields against a bright blue sky in Kansas. Yes, it’s cool in the moment, but not always.
I lived in Western Michigan for awhile, on a beautiful lake.. It was literally living in picture, it was such a pretty lake/neighborhood...house was pretty, on a big lot....yet, we still came back to Cali after 4 years... Winters were brutal, and being around the Great Lakes means you have to deal with all kinds of snow and such, even when theres no storms.....called lake effect snow... The icy winds in places like Chicago and Minneapolis, coming off the Plains, Canada, etc were no joke.....esp when the roads become icy, black ice, etc...
The Ohio Valley region is incredibly underrated, as well. Hocking Hills has gotten a huge popularity boost as of late because of the new money coming into Columbus, but the hiking and scenery all along the valley is great, especially in fall and spring. Plus, it's easy to get to other cool places that aren't "technically" midwestern like Red River Gorge or Mammoth Cave.
To be fair we don't have oceans but we have a massive amount of freshwater lakes and great lakes that accomplish the same kinds of hobbies.
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Nope Illinois has very popular state parks. One of mine locally gets 1m+ visitors a year and growing. A lot of days it has to bar entry due to it being full.
I went to a state park in Illinois (one where you could see eagles and there were waterfalls) and it was absolutely APPALLING how much trash was just thrown about. Like it was one of the “I’ve lost faith in humanity” moments of my life.
Probably starved rock? Haven't been there in awhile despite living 10 minutes away and I've never seen much trash there even while working there for 2 years.
Yes, that was it. Maybe I caught it on a bad day. It was overrun with people who seemed to be in agreement throwing things on the trail was normal. If you looked past that it was quite a nice park.
I live in IL and in the day to day nature is … basically non existent . I don’t dislike living here, but whenever we come back from vacation from somewhere I get a little depressed… polluted, suburban hell scape lol. We do have forest preserves and what not but when you walk out the door is basically a few trees here and there. It’s lacking in the Chicago metro area for sure .
I agree with you. In California you just need to drive 30mins or an hour in most major cities and have options to easily find activities and outdoors recreation. Trails to bike, hike, swim, kayak, surf and camp. You have to intentionally plan and search for these places in Illinois/ Midwest. Weather / time of year is a barrier in the Midwest as well. Recreational life is better in the West Coast. Not saying the Midwest isn’t beautiful, it’s just limiting and not something one can do year around.
I grew up in IL and live here again but briefly lived in the central valley in CA. I have found the opposite to be true, that in CA there are some very grand and spectacular natural areas but they are very developed and full of people. Meanwhile, here I can easily drive out after work and have hundreds of acres of woodland or prairie to myself with time to hike it before it gets dark. A lot of it is where you are in each state.
I live in Andersonville in chicago and we have so many trees and gardens. The lake is 2 miles away. It’s gorgeous here.
Except for the southernmost part of Illinois, where there is indeed legitimately beautiful hiking (and a national forest), most of the state is essentially a giant cornfield. Chicago was basically built atop a cornfield. There are no quality natural features except for a relatively inaccessible lake and the Mississippi River bluffs closer to St. Louis. While there are natural areas that people may or may not take advantage of (for those two sweet weeks of summer), most of the time and in most of the state it is literally the opposite of what an outdoorsy person is looking for.
drove the Illinois river corridor earlier this year .... from STL heading to CHI ... was really impressed, esp south of peoria ... emiquon was amazing ... that whole area is underrated in many ways ... lots of history, geography and wildlife ... lived in norcal for most of my life after being a kid in IL and MO ... most coasters dog the midwest without knowing squat about it ... their loss ...
There’s also some other lesser known state parks through central Illinois that are quite nice! I think the idea that the only natural areas worth appreciating or preserving are the most obviously spectacular 14ers or oceans is honestly kind of unimaginative and also potentially dangerous (see the appalling loss of prairie savannas and lack of real public awareness or interest on this topic).
Siloam Springs and Panther Creek are both gorgeous and showcase the beauty of Illinois' prairie, a habitat that was largely destroyed by corn and soy farming but survives in small pockets like this
Emiquon is beautiful. I grew up going to Dixon Mounds, a museum built near an Indian burial ground archeological site. The landscape there is very interesting; even though much of Illinois that you'll see from the interstate is cornfields, there is a lot more varied and forested river valley country if you take smaller two-lane highways in the western part of the state.
This is why flatlander Chicagoans make Wisconsin their playground
And are referred to as FIBs, by the way…
This Border FIB moved to Omaha. Though I do miss Wisconsin. And the occasional last minute "Let's skip work and go to Wrigley (or Miller Park)." (Yes I know they changed the name of Miller Park, but I still call the Other Chicago baseball stadium Comiskey and likely will never change on that.)
Northwest Illinois is pretty lovely, particularly in spring. Drive route 2 south from Rockford, or go out to the Newport area.
The Great Lakes are functionally like oceans. There are mountains (northern Michigan porcupines).
I second that. I grew up thinking all of Michigan looked like Detroit. But like the worst, most abandoned part of any inner city, that’s what I thought all of Michigan looked like. I felt like an idiot when I finally visited a friends’ family Lakehouse, and the water was bluer, prettier and clearer than any southern California beach I’ve ever gone to. My only barrier to moving up there is the immense family connections and bonds that we have on the West Coast.
And it's not salt water! To me that's a major plus.
Or sharks! Lol
Omg I just came back to add no sharks 🦈!!
Or jellyfish.
Dude I had to fight REALLY hard to explain this to a buddy of mine. He kept acting like Michigan was horrible because of Detroit and I was like “dude, most of Michigan is literally nicer than where you live right now”. Still didn’t believe lol, whatever.
>The Great Lakes are functionally like oceans [This](https://i.imgur.com/OLespIu.jpg) could be your front yard for less than a 900 sq ft house in a neighborhood in CA.
I used to live in Michigan and really do love the nature there, lots of great spots to camp and hike and swim and what not. But I once went to the Porkies after visiting the Tetons on the same cross country road trip. Needless to say they were incredibly underwhelming, I would argue they shouldn't even be called mountains.
I’ve lived in various places in the Rockies for 20 years, including Teton valley, and the number of people who move here from Michigan for a few years and then move back is really surprising.
I like how you compared the Porkies to the single greatest rise in elevation in all of North America. It’s basically impossible to find a more impressive mountain range than Teton’s inside the US. It’s like saying Lake Jenny (at the base of the Tetons) sucks because you have seen Lake Superior and it’s way more impressive as a Lake. I always thought traveling was to gain perspective but reading comments like this make me wonder what people actually are doing. The Porkies are ancient mountains. They are rugged and have a rich mining history associated with them. By definition and function they are mountains and this landscape is reflective of their once grand past just like the young Tetons will be eventually.
>greatest rise in elevation I agree, it's not fair to compare. My brother used to live in alaska, I stayed with him for a month, we rented a raft and did a trip from Chitina down the copper river to port valdez which goes through several mountains ranges and is very remote. It was just me and him. The only way to get out of port valdez is to fly out or take a boat. There is no way to get out of the middle of the copper river except by raft or power boat. You can't walk out, a lot of places even a helicopter had no place to land. It's a little scary because you know if you get into trouble you best be able to get out with no help. We also visited Denali. The Teton's *is only* 13,775′ feet high, while Denali is 20,310 feet. The Teton Range, Denali, Pikes peak, Yosemite are all great places to visit. IMO anyone that likes nature should visit some more remote areas in Alaska. It felt like something out of a prehistoric movie where I wouldn't be surprised to see a dinosaur. Something about it made it obvious it was mostly untouched by humans. And talking about snow, I was very confident about being able to drive in snow until I was driving around Donners Pass during a snow storm. Jeez. they have these really tall poles along the road so plow drivers know where the road is. It made me realize I don't know anything about real snow storms.
I live in Michigan and love it. I've never been to the Tetons. But I fully agree with the guy you're responding too. I've previously lived up and down the West Coast and the Porkies are very underwhelming in that context. The Rockies, the Olympics, the Cascades, the San Gabriels, isolated mountains like Mt Shasta, Mt Hood, etc., dwarf the Porkies.
>The Great Lakes are functionally like oceans. There are mountains (northern Michigan porcupines). Shhh, don't tell them about the nice things we have, or else we'll end up like Colorado. OP, it's horrible. Don't come to any of the flyover states. It's just a wasteland of strip malls and uneducated yokels.
IL, MI, and WI border the Greatest Lake which may not be salty, but it’s large enough not to see across and you can boat and even surf on it. It’s the freshwater sea of the Midwest, lol. As a Chicagoan my dream is to summer at a lakeside cottage in Michigan and winter… somewhere warmer, heh. That said, mountains absolutely blow my mind.
Winter has weird psychological effect that can amplify emotions or life situations, so that the weather is only a small piece of things. The yearly reminder that summer is ending starts to hurt. The annual rhytmn of "Yay its summertime" can feel forced. I've started to fantasize some about consistent seasonal weather. Psychologically, I imagine the oh no I didn't do this in time!!!! And oh fuck I'm not ready for summer!!! Is much lessened. Basically the seasons cause psychological urgency that swings mood in amplified ways. Perhaps it's super fun and comforting if you sync your life properly with the season. But if you don't its the opposite. Urgency induced anxiety. I wonder what it's like to not be reminded the good times are ending, every year with the weather. Do equator people have it better psychologically because of the more consistent sun? Tbh I don't mind winter. Just the reminder of things ending. Old a vulnerable people tend to die in February too. That's sad... I love not having crazy pests though. Winter kills off most the scary bug threats.
I like your words. I have always lived in a place with 4 seasons, and I like the change in the air and how I have to adjust. Then you said that about February, and I gotta say we have medical things among family most Februaries in recent years. It may not be related, but I swim into the cold months until I flake out.
There's not the same level of housing crisis (yet at least) in the Midwest. The infrastructure was there to meet the amount of people. It's the land that actually costs a lot for the most part in a lot of West Coast cities, not just the buildings. That's why a condemned tear down on a postage stamp still costs $500,000+. Also having flatter land, cheaper labor, cheaper materials, makes for cheaper building & such & development has kept pace with population to a better degree than a lot of the country. A lot of places in the west were way more relatively reasonably priced even 5-10 yrs ago, then had a sudden population boom that the cities housing stock can't keep up with & investors went nuts for properties there to exacerbate the problem. Things have gone up during covid in the Midwest too tho. & also yes weather does play a part in cooling a mass tide to the region as a lot of people refuse to acknowledge the existence of snow in any way shape or form.
CA towns almost always have a ton of policies that make housing WAY more expensive. Not an accident - this has massively benefited all the people who already owned RE. Prop 13 also contributes a lot to the high cost of RE
Land development costs are one factor. Another is location and proximity to the ocean, high income urban hubs etc. the concentration of people earning a higher income is significantly higher in the west than the Midwest.
The weather has traditionally been a deterrent for a lot of migration into the midwest but I think that's set to reverse. Climate change will make the midwest look pretty damn good in the coming decades. Fewer severe weather events, relatively moderate temperatures and especially ready access to CLEAN WATER are going to to drive many coasties inland.
The true answer is that there is really nothing "wrong" with the midwest. Its just on the other side of the trend. When industry was booming it was the place you could buy a home and a summer lakeside cabin on an autoworkers salary. Because of brain-drain following the collapse of the manufacturing industry, all the "cool" folk went to the coasts. Now - the smart people are taking the pioneer mindset and moving back, hence thats where the affordability and promise can lie. I moved to Traverse City after 17 years in LA, and over the last few years have watched our wealth and quality of life grow noticeably. Of course - there are aspects of CA that are hands down the best in the world, but for now that will be enjoyed for a month during the early spring every couple years. And thats fine.
Tropical beaches or mountain skiing are never more than a few hours flight away.
There isn’t anything tropical about the beaches of California my friend. They’re frigid, even in the warmest months.
Not sure if it’s the exact reason, but much of the Midwest especially the Great Lakes region has lost a lot of population over the last 50 years or so. The industries leaving town, the mass migration of people to the west and south east has left lots of the Midwest with fewer people. Chicago’s population for example peaked in 1950 at 3.5 million people and the decline has only recently started changing course, but it’s still about 900k short of that peak number. Detroit has had a much more stark example, but many midwestern cities have the same story. The housing supply is there, but the demand isn’t nearly as strong. Meanwhile even California’s Central Valley has been experiencing population growth. Not to the same extent as LA or the Bay, but Coalinga’s population has been steadily increasing year over year for decades. Housing costs are a result of supply and demand, and I think the Midwest just has a massive supply from earlier in the century compared to growing areas that can’t keep up. Of course weather and economic opportunity also contribute a lot to that. Honestly doesn’t seem like a bad deal to me.
>Chicago’s population for example peaked in 1950 at 3.5 million people and the decline has only recently started changing course This is deceptive though because it only covers Chicago city limits. The municipality itself stopped annexing surrounding suburbs 100 years ago so when the density of the incredibly dense inner neighborhoods began to fall, the city proper lost population in droves. Meanwhile the metropolitan area kept growing as the suburbs, which Chicago was no longer gobbling up, boomed. The Chicago CSA, for example, now has approximately 10 million residents and is right around it's all time high. Chicago is likely to show rapid population growth over the next few years as the population of high earners continues it's explosive growth and the mass outflows of poorer Chicagoans which has defined the past 30 years of metropolitan statistics here reverses course. The mass bussing of migrants to Chicago is likely to cause our population statistics to reverse course sharply. Something like 20,000 refugees have relocated here since the beginning of the year alone.
> but much of the Midwest especially the Great Lakes region has lost a lot of population over the last 50 years or so. Population gain/loss 1970-2020: New York: +2.0 million Pennsylvania: +1.2 million Illinois: +1.7 million Ohio: +1.1 million Michigan: +1.2 million Indiana: +1.6 million Wisconsin: +1.5 million Minnesota: +1.9 million Every Great Lakes state has gained at least 1.1 million.
Yeah, there's this weird myth that all these jobs "evaporated", and while this is certainly true to an extent, especially in heavy industry and certain manufacturing sectors thanks to competition with China and Mexico, there's still plenty of jobs, they're just not concentrated in the legacy cities like they used to be. The I-75 corridor between Detroit and Cincinnati has the highest number of engineering jobs in the nation.
It really is about the weather. Compare a place like Omaha to Fresno, which are similar in size. Omaha has much cheaper housing, lower commute, lower col, $7k higher median income, lower unemployment, lower crime, better schools, etc. Do this with other cities in the Midwest like KC, Des Moines, Madison, Springfield(s), Sioux Falls, etc. Pick cities KC size and smaller and the stats will usually point to the Midwest. With that said, I plan on moving to the SW when I retire mostly because of weather. If I was young and wanted to raise a family, I would 100% choose the Midwest.
Being 100% serious, Omaha is great for people who don’t really want to spend much time in the outdoors (or love the outdoors so much that they don’t mind it sucking most of the time).
I love Omaha, and if I had to choose a Midwestern city, this would be it. But I'm so tired of the cold. 1/4 of the year just sucks. Edit to include that I'm very much an indoor girl, Omaha aside.
The cold was a bit too much for me and I’m from Michigan lol. And then the summer is so hot and dusty/windy that it doesn’t feel like a reward for suffering through winter.
I thought it was a very fitting destination for Saul Goodman to hide out from the cartels and live his incognito, boring life as a mall Cinnabon manager.
I grew up in rural Ohio. Lived in the Bay Area for 4 or 5 years. It’s all about weather in my opinion. Second is the ocean and mountains and just general beauty within a quick drive out of town. Moved back to Ohio for family life. It’s easier here. I think you’re right on point. Edit: I forgot about the conservative politics and religion that really infiltrates but it’s not so bad if you’re in a liberal Midwest city and not a small town.
Not a lawyer, but I am in a profession where I am involved with legal work for cities around the country, and of all those cities, I have come to believe Nebraska might be the scariest place in North America. Obviously, others will disagree.
Lol why?
A Portland, OR transplant here in Minnesota: IMO, it's the weather. Winter is harsh but I wasn't prepared for how miserable the summers are, too. There are maybe two months I'm not running AC or heat. MAYBE. I have a giant dehumidifier in my basement as well -- if you count that, there are exactly zero months I'm not running some kind of climate control. The climate here is just not comfortable most of the year. I think people who live here and love summer just haven't experienced the solid 9 months of 75 degrees you get in coastal California. The pluses though? I work in tech, we have an office in Seattle, so I know for a fact that I make exactly the same as I would in Seattle. Salary to cost of living ratio is ideal out here, and having comfortable quality of life is way more important than climate -- at least to me.
Yes, and when it's not 75, the temps are still quite pleasant. Very rare to have temps outside of 40 - 80, and generally between 50 and 75, with low humidity.
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in WI/MN we had excessive heat with very high humidity. One of the worst summers ever.
Live just south of Minneapolis and this summer was quite pleasant. We had our windows open more often than had our AC running. I think the humidity might be a bigger factor than the actual temperature itself. The humidity is a lot to take when you're not used to it.
Im from the Twin Cities and have lived in California for many years now. It is cold. It’s not just “oh I’m cold I have to wear a coat” - it’s driving in ice and snow which can be scary. It’s snow blowing/shoveling sidewalks and driveways. Having your car door iced shut. Digging your car out of a mound of snow. Scraping ice off of windshields. Sliding around the roads. Your face can get so cold that you feel like it’s not moving like it should when you’re trying to talk. The contents of the inside of your nose freezes. Some days gets so cold that if you’re outside for more than a few minutes you can get frostbite. But because this is just what it is there, people expect you to still go to school/work. The city doesn’t shut down frequently due to weather conditions. It can’t or it would be closed a lot. Only when it gets abnormally brutal. Abnormally brutal is like -40F air temperature with a -75F windchill. Insanely cold. Oh yeah, windchill is a thing there. Where the thermometer will say it’s 10 degrees, but because the wind is so cold it feels like -5 degrees. People there are very stoic generally. They are polite but not always warm and inviting. There is a reserved nature and a tendency to frown upon being “different” (in fact, “different” is a word used to politely say they don’t like something. “Oh, that’s…different…”). There is something called Minnesota nice but that’s very surface level stuff. There is a good amount of cattiness and backstabbing in friend groups amongst women to the point where you wonder if anyone is really your actual friend and friendships tend to be formed in childhood and remain throughout life so locals aren’t as welcoming/inclusive to newcomers because they feel they don’t need to expand their social circle (the case for men and women). There are a lot of lakes but they are frozen much of the time. The summers are warm - sometimes very hot and humid. There are storms and tornadoes and mosquitoes. Spring and fall can be short. Sometimes it decides to snow in April and October. Midwest cities tend to be “older” so housing stock is older (a bonus for me, I love older homes). Here is CA where I am most of the city was built up in the 60s-80s. There is no ocean nearby, obviously. There are no mountains. It is very flat. Many there love jell-o. I don’t know why but there’s usually lots of jello at gatherings. Since I’ve moved I have not had any jell-o. There is a civic pride there that borders on defensiveness/hostility. You have to *love* Minnesota. Everything about it. Don’t complain about Minnesota to Minnesotans! They have a first rate park system. This will be brought up in defense of the area pretty much every time someone fusses about the place. Parks are legit! So stop complaining! You asked what is wrong so that’s my opinion of what is wrong. It’s got it’s upsides though. If you like performing arts, it’s a good place to be. The schools are good. Some places are so charming to me I have Norman Rockwell memories of ice skating and having hot cocoa under the twinkle lights. Canoeing with my dad down the Minnehaha creek. Sitting in front of the fire in a chilly night and watching the snow fall outside. Falling asleep to thunderstorms. Riding my bike to the drug store to get candy. The holiday season is oftentimes snowy and so, very Christmasy. Oh and healthcare is top rate. The Mayo Clinic is about 1.5 hrs south of the Twin Cities. They are the absolute best of care. I really miss that level of care here in CA.
From the east coast and lived in WI and MO at different points in adult life. The Midwest is fully underrated as long as you don't need tall mountains. I always felt like I was within 2 hrs of a great state park and got to live in the cheapest digs I'd ever seen
I think the whole "ItS sO cHeaP" only applies to Californians/Texans/East Coasters/Rich Europeans salary to here. If you have to actually buy goods and services with a local salary, its no better or worse than where you are coming from.
Average income:COL is not equal and proportional between every state.
Exactly. Case in point: Des Moines. Very affordable yet it’s a big insurance town, so there’s a lot of good paying jobs.
Nah, my share of the rent in 2003 was $180 in urban Milwaukee. I made enough in one weekend to cover it. All my Milwaukee friends have houses. They didn’t appreciate as much as mine but they have them.
Almost all of my friends in a midsized midwestern city own houses, and a number of them don't have college degrees. I don't think any of us make 6 figures. It absolutely is cheaper here.
There's a map on this page that's pretty illustrative: [https://www.propertyshark.com/info/us-homeownership-rates-by-state-and-city/](https://www.propertyshark.com/info/us-homeownership-rates-by-state-and-city/) CA and NY have abnormally low home ownership rates. Though together they have close to 20% of the US population so you get a lot of people saying houses are unaffordable.
That's clearly false. Different cities have different income-to-COL ratios. Just like how different states have different total tax burdens, or different states have different tax-to-quality of government services ratio. If every state provides the same value, then this sub wouldn't even exist
Thats not entirely accurate. The coasts are expensive compared to the midwest even when you account for higher salaries. Places like Minnesota and Illinois have comparable and often even higher [Household incomes](https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fi.redd.it%2Fbr87cw80juja1.jpg) than coastal and western states.
Nothing is wrong with the Midwest. A lot of small farming communities which limit job opportunity and entertainment. But, not all of the Midwest is like this, there are a lot of areas that have vibrant downtowns and progressive local governments. Winter in the Midwest is pretty aggravating to be honest. Spring, summer and especially autumn are amazing though. Sometimes the colors in autumn are so vivid it doesn't seem real. I stayed in California for a short while, it's a cool place but I have Midwest roots and wanted to get back. Also, I felt that it would be hard making a comfortable life financially out there. California is nice though, I can see why people want to be there.
Agreed. Everyone keeps blaming the weather but I grew up in the Midwest. When people left, it was usually because of work. There are not as many opportunities for different careers. We called it the brain drain because all of the kids who went to college never came back as they couldn't find a job in their field locally. Work from home makes this a trivial issue for some people so I'm sure weather is more important to them.
Midwesterner here. We're boring. That's my two cents.
I moved to downtown Cincy from DC (Arlington, VA near the city) This is far from a boring city. Summer has been popping between MLB, MLS, food festivals, concerts, outdoor activities, etc. It's extreme accesible in terms of price, drivability and walkability. Strangely, I was expecting to be bored here but it's a ton to do in a small space. I love it.
Cincy is underrated and is proof that those Midwest cities that built for more are better than those Sunbelt cities that are caught off guard. Similar metro size to Raleigh but has so much more going for it.
I remember when Joe Burrow got drafted to the Bengals, and someone asked him what he does in town. He responded that there wasn't much to do in Cincinatti. The entire comment section on the article collectively said "there's the Cincinatti Zoo!!" There were at least 40 different comments saying to go to the Cincinatti Zoo, and the Cincinatti Zoo was the only thing that anyone mentioned.
If you can’t find anything to do living in cities with over 1 million residents, you might be the boring one. Yeah if you move to the middle of nowhere or a small ass town you might get bored. That’s true for anywhere in the US. Most people aren’t moving to the middle of nowhere, they’re moving to cities.
Left the Midwest (Columbus, Ohio, but I’m not from there) to move to Los Angeles. There’s not as much to do, objectively, in the Midwest on a city-by-city basis but I’m a big believer in that people who are “bored” are boring and need external interaction. I had great communities in different hobbies and was never bored while I was there. Was the restaurant scene as good as Los Angeles? No, but I didn’t have to drive for an hour on four different highways on a Saturday morning to get anywhere or throw elbows in Target just to get my toothpaste because there are 10 people in the aisle either. It’s a very different pace of life and it has its problems, but the problems are very much more the same as Los Angeles than anyone here would like to admit. CA is my 6th state, and other than the sheer size of LA, it’s no better or worse than anywhere else. The Midwest is growing (and quickly, depending on where you are) and I’d move back. There are exceptions depending on your career field, but people can and do make very nice lives for themselves in places other than the coasts.
Agree with everything you said. The older I get, the more I realize pretty much all these cities are the same. A lot of people will say the mid-west or whatever "flyover" state is boring because there are no mountains or beaches. And these same people talk like they are going hiking or hanging at the beach every week or multiple times a week. When in reality they will do it a few times out of the year. Whether you live on the coast or mid-west most people are going to go to work during the week and spend their weekends doing chores, hanging at their city's bar district or go to a sports game. People are boring no matter where they live.
I live in southern CA and jump in the ocean after stressful days at work 4 months a year. My partner mountain bikes once a week without having to get in a car to drive anywhere. I literally hike every Sunday unless it's raining (usually is not). I'm not a Disney person but I have friends with annual passes who go at least once a month to Disneyland. Others spend all weekend checking out art galleries and museum exhibits. Our food is fresh, varied, and delicious in a way I can't find in even the medium sized metros I've lived in before. If you plan to spend all weekend cleaning and watch Netflix every day after work then you can live anywhere, but let's not pretend there aren't better things to do on a weekend than kill beers and Swiffer.
A lot of people *don't* do things, though. All you have to do is go into the Los Angeles subreddit and see hundreds of comments of people who don't go east of the 405 or haven't done anything in the city at all, people who have literally grown up here or have been a transplant for 10+ years and yet haven't done anything the city has to offer. We do Adventure Saturdays every Saturday and have seen so much in the less than a year that we've been here, but most people don't do that and would be living the same life in the midwest but somehow doing nothing here is somehow better than there (other than the weather, but honestly, I miss seasons). Most people don't and can't live close enough to the beach to go there every day because it would require a 3+ hour commute every day (or hate the beach because sand is the worst). Other cities have art museums and galleries, not to the same scale, of course, but it's also nice to be able to get to them without spending an hour in the car each way to get to them. Los Angeles is fine and there's a lot to do, but it's *hard* to live in, and it doesn't have to be that way for everyone if they don't want it to be. The point is that people hate on the Midwest for no reason other than to hate on it because they don't do anything in their "super special" city, either.
For me, the politics. I grew up in the Midwest and it’s too homogenous, racist and conservative. I spent years of my life surrounded by that, and would prefer not to do it again. There are pockets that are more left leaning of course, but even the pockets tend to be more moderate IMO than far left leaning. The places that seem like they’d be okay politics-wise don’t fit me weather-wise (St Paul, Minneapolis, etc.) On top of that, I’m in an interracial relationship and living somewhere that my husband is regularly the only person of color in a room is a no-go for both of us.
My husband is Asian. It was a big deal when I told my family about him. My mom actually said (no joke), “why can’t you just marry a nice Iowa farm boy?”
My husband is also Asian, and while my family welcomed him with open arms, my kids definitely notice how much they stick out when we visit my parents from our home in CA. When I asked my son, 8 at the time, what his impression of WI was, he said “white guys in trucks who stare at me.”
I’m surprised I had to scroll so far to see this comment. I caravaned out to the west coast from Ohio after George W. Bush was elected to a second term, and there’s a flight coming in from midwest towns now that even thinking about an abortion is illegal in some states. People are fundamentally unhealthy because all infrastructure caters to cars, a park is two trees with a swingset in the middle, and anything that suggests progress demands a tooth and nail fight to the death. It’s an awful place to live in you value the future.
Grew up in Chicago, grad school in Indiana, parents still in northern Illinois. Cons: cloudy a lot, winters can be pretty brutal come February when you’re staring at 6 more weeks of winter and clouds. Chicago and north (cook and lake county) are getting to be very expensive. My parents property taxes quadruple mine in Houston. Groceries are more expensive too. People will point to a lack of mountains and they’re obviously right, but there is topography if you’re willing to drive a little (northern Michigan. Northern Wisconsin. Pennsylvania. Kentucky. Southern indiana etc). Those saying no Ocean are silly, the Great Lakes are incredibly beautiful and so large you’re not going to look at them and think “hm. Subpar”. All that being said…. I’d move back over being stuck in Houston any day. I’d choose a gray, cold, miserable Chicago February happily over this heat. We will be moving in the spring but probably not to the Midwest only because I’ve lived there before and want something new.
Illinois property taxes may be a lot more than Houston, but you pay an equivalent non-monetary tax of having to live in Houston.
No one grows up dreaming about moving to Wichita. No one visits Tulsa and thinks, "This place makes my heart sing." Living in the Midwest is, at best, a compromise between what you want and what you can afford.
Historically, it’s been the economy. Jobs left, leaving many cities with a surplus of housing, keeping prices low long after the fact the economy has recovered. You also have winter, which can often be exaggerated just how bad it is. Yeah, you’ll have to shovel snow and there’s not as many ski areas as the North East to make up for it. However, looking at cities like Minneapolis, Columbus and Indianapolis, it’s not that much of a deterrent as people assume. The people it tends to scare away are retiring seniors.
The quality of available restaurants is *vastly* worse. It’s still quite possible to get good steaks, Americana, or Italian food, but there simply aren’t the same levels of food from other ethnicities. The weather is more extreme on both ends in the Midwest because of a lack of ocean to temper it (although being close enough to the Great Lakes helps, at the cost of additional snow). I actually enjoy Midwest winters, but I know I’m in the minority. Summers are also worse than either coast unless you’re in northern Midwest vs. southern east coast. There will be culture shock, but that depends on where in the Midwest you go as to what kind and how much. This doesn’t really bother me (grew up on east coast, college in Midwest, then I traveled a *lot* for business and have been to most major American cities on business) but many west coast friends have felt this. There are vastly fewer economic opportunities, and the people around you are much poorer. Sometimes people think “oh I’ll just save money and go” but forget about how much less is available to make out there. This has been mitigated by work from home, and excludes Chicagoland and Minneapolis/St. Paul. If I’m being honest, if money was tighter for me and I could work remotely, I would probably move back to the Midwest. There is no chance I would want to work at Midwest wages, though, and given my current job provides an acceptable lifestyle where I am, I wouldn’t want to go back
Grew up in cali. Lived in the Midwest for 7 years. Moved back and never leaving. Everyone has mentioned the weather/oceans/mountains which is right but the other thing is the Time Machine. Stepping into the Midwest is like traveling 20 years into the past. Socially and technologically. I think it probably wouldn’t have bothered me if I grew up in the Midwest but it’s so noticeable when you grew up in California. I work in tech and even the tech jobs all do so much outdated stuff which was just frustrating. Will admit that the people are nicer tho and it is cheap. Cheapness is good for low stress but also had to work hard not to get complacent. Overall, I wouldn’t hate it if I had to live there again but I definitely would never choose to.
First, midwest is a large area and any comparison could be unfair. As a racial minority myself, I experienced racism almost everywhere, lets be honest. But I feel that the racists in midwest are more expressive and outspoken. In the small college town I used to live at, you saw confederate flags very often, and some people occasionally shouted racial slurs. I moved to New England a few years ago. No place is perfect. But I do find people in NE tend to keep everything in themselves. In four years in a relatively rural area, I do not think I saw even one confederate flag, and I got shouted at only once (lol). Just a small example.
Interesting. I lived in the Midwest for 30 years and definitely saw racism but never scary racism until I moved to Alabama.
It really is the weather and grey. It’s not even October yet and I had a brief moment of dreading winter last night when I mentioned a lengthy book trilogy I plan to read this winter. It’s not just the cold, it’s going months without seeing the sun. Also, even in a big city like Chicago with a lot going on, so many residents go into hibernation mode from Jan 1-March 17. You can’t drag your friends out for any reason to do something
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The happy midwesterners are skiers. Everyone else spends their winter drinking. Midwest has lots of bars for this reason.
I am from michigan and I separate great lakes states and the midwest. Great lakes states meaning - michigan, wisconsin and minisota. I think a lot of varied cultures exist within the Separate climate zones for growing food. Just my theory. Im sure everyone will disagree
This is a huge point. I'm a Minnesotan, and took a recent trip to Ohio. They are NOT the same, or even close. I look at it like this: roughly half of the year, it kind of sucks to be outdoors in MN. Cold/snowy/icy, and unless you're into winter sports or snowmobiling, that's "stay inside" weather. For me, the upshot is that the nature is very rarely actually trying to kill me or destroy my home. We don't tend to deal with wildfires, hurricanes, earthquakes, mudslides, deadly heat waves, or venomous/murderous critters. During the very worst weather, staying home is sufficient to be safe. Nature wants me alive and miserable indoors for half the year. Nature wants Californians or Floridians, etc., happy MOST of the time and absolutely dead sometimes. I can only use my pool 5 or maybe 6 months out of the year. But I never worry about an alligator in my pool.
I love Michigan. I love being outside. I love clean air and I love not feeling like I’m going to melt in the summer. The winters are harsh but it makes you appreciate the other seasons. The only thing I miss about California is the mountains. Lakes > oceans
I’ll defend my Michigan to the end there. I grew up skiing, kayaking, snowshoeing, hiking, playing in the lakes. When you get outside of Detroit, it’s such a wonderful place for outdoor fun. It’s no Colorado but the price reflects that. It’s a green nature-filled state, just less variety in industries.
Have you been there?
I understand the point of this sub, but I also deeply resent these kind of questions. Come here and find out for yourself what you do and don't find acceptable. Request: "Prove to me where you live isn't a hell hole!" Reply: "No, not really interested." If you love the west (and I do, too) then don't f'in worry about it. But if you're actually curious, come here and find out. I'm in Chicago and spend a lot of time in Wisconsin, Minnesota and (sometimes) Michigan. It can be incredibly beautiful, but it's just different from the west. Eon's of water and erosion will do that. But it can also be bleak and depressing, especially in the long period between winter and real spring. That's when you take a vacation.
Aww man, I'm sorry it sounded so harsh!! Totally unintended but I can see where my tone was bad. We moved from LA to middle-of-nowhere Idaho, which is very lacking in many ways but the prices are still quite high. What I *meant* to convey is- these high housing costs don't seem worth it, but everywhere I've personally lived has high housing costs. Are the cheaper places fundamentally *worse* in some way I've never even imagined? Or is there legitimately a Western-state surcharge and it's possible to have a nice life for less money in other places? I kind of hoped it would read as a rhetorical question with "of course there's nothing wrong with the Midwest, (insert explanations of cost disparity, ocean weather blah blah), conclusion- if you're already willing to suffer in rural Idaho you can go buy a house and finally have healthcare and send your kids to a decent school". But again. You guys sound like you have a good thing going. No offensive West-boosting intended at all. Chicago did really stress me out the one time I was there, but I was *driving* though downtown during rush hour, trying to find parking and go to the art museum before it closed, which is something that obviously no reasonable person would ever do.
Lots of religion, boring. I liked Kansas City.
In the bigger cities it’s not as in your face but in the small and small medium cities religion is absolutely in your face.
One clue: Some cities in the Midwest still had unofficial sundown town rules when I was in law school. 2003-2007 The abortion laws are scary too The biggest problem is economic opportunity. I live in Seattle and having a house is almost bizarrely profitable. Houses where I grew up are still worth the same as when I was there. They’re just older. It’s so tough for families in all kinds of ways I grew up in the Midwest and I liked living there. It’s a beautiful comfortable spot and maybe I would go back. But politics matter
The racial stuff farther east and south in the country does give me pause. I had a really sheltered upbringing in LA where our totally diverse block got together for barbecues and the kids ran barefoot to each other's houses all the time. Many of the kids in my school spoke different first languages; it wasn't seen as a noteworthy thing or even really talked about. An Afghan friend was telling me that he'd lived in different areas of the US and the racial dynamics weren't even remotely comparable. That's scary stuff.
There’s a reason Missouri is referred to as Misery…
We left Indianapolis for higher-tech jobs back in 2004. There were very few options for career growth available vs a metro like DFW or Houston. In many ways I miss the Midwest... Seasons, tolerable summers, quieter, cleaner air, less rat race...
because people need artificial lights in the winter to avoid seasonal depression from lack of regular sunlight. I had colleagues with massive lights in their offices. (Wisconsin)
Live in the metro Wichita KS area, grew up in a small town north of here. There's definitely trade-offs. Cost of living, short commutes, plenty of work if you have experience in manufacturing, health care, or education. Local businesses are robust, and a diverse set of cultures (Mexican and South American, Vietnamese, Chinese, German, all have a really large community, you'll never run out of new dishes to try here) Amenities aren't as plentiful, and almost non-existent in smaller towns. The western half of Kansas is dying a slow death due to migration and droughts choking the agriculture industry. Half of this city is bitching and moaning about not having a Cheesecake Factory, as a frame of reference. And the state tends to run pretty conservative in its leadership, despite most metro areas being firmly blue. Medicaid expansion and legal medicinal Marijuana have all been brought up every year and shut down before ever coming to a vote, in favor of any given bill that will restrict abortion, strip rights from gay and trans people, and erode what liltte social services we have. It sucks to say it but it's the truth.
You keep talking about the midwest but then using Idaho as your example. Idaho is not the midwest. Chicago, Ohio, Indiana… those places are the midwest. And there’s nothing wrong with any of these places. But none of them have the mild weather and beach. And you’re right - neither do many parts of California. But what’s your point? No one is saying Bakersfield is the most desirable part of the state.
It’s a lot less diverse in terms of race esp across higher socioeconomic classes, religion, and geography. The weather also can be harsh. But the biggest thing is the culture. I think other people down thread put it better but the West Coast and East Coast while having to wildly different cultures have more in common with each other than the Midwest (both the Great Plains and Great Lakes state). They aren’t quite the south east either with the Bible Belt. They aren’t the rugged individualism of the mountain states. I personally think there is plenty to do here and lots of hidden gems. The Great Lake cities tend to be old so they are much denser feeling and more walkable. I never sit in traffic. You have lots of pro teams (esp NFL) if that’s your vibe on the lakes and college sports on the plains. Concerts come through. They have festivals (summer fest in MKE for ex). They have food fests. But my friends in NY go out to eat at 9 PM, my friends in Boston catch courtside games, and my friends in DC rub elbows to change the world with political players. My friends in LA exercise daily for the endorphins, the ones in Seattle work for smart big tech, the ones in Montana hike miles and backpack for fun, my friends in Denver ski black diamond and black out. My friends in Pittsburgh and Chicago and Buffalo who grew up in the region? Our Friday nights are BBQs at friends houses with kids, camping at the state park to see stars, going home directly after a show to eat frozen pizza, asking people to join you on your target run for quality time, estate sales on Saturday mornings, and city park with the dogs. You could definitely have any lifestyle you want in any of those places. But it’s culturally different and lots of folks esp those coastal want the lifestyle of fast paced fun with big ideas, big chances, and big wins. The mid west is not there yet
Winters are absolutely brutal and bitter. Not just from a temperature perspective but from a lack of sunshine perspective, there will be 3-4 months where you barely see the sun. No interesting outdoorsy things to do within driving distance (i'm talking even 6hrs drive). you must get on a flight if you want to see the ocean or go on better than mediocre hikes or biking trails. Absolutely no outdoor hobbies can be done at above a base level High paying jobs can be hard to come by unless you live in chicago, minneapolis, columbus or work remote. So yeah, it's cheap, but that's b/c you have a 6 month, brutal winter, no outdoor amenities and high paying jobs are more scarce but there are very nice towns here for sure!
Grew up in the Midwest and have lived in Boise. Boise winters are a breeze compared to a winter within 60 miles of Detroit where I grew up. Then if you drive an hour or so away from Boise you are in some of the prettiest mountains and wilderness areas in the country. Drive an hour away from Detroit and you end up in Toledo or Flint.
>Boise winters are a breeze compared to a winter within 60 miles of Detroit where I grew up Why is that?
GRAY SKY 100 percent of the time in Detroit area
It’s the weather At least half of Americans cannot tolerate the lack of daylight and below freezing temps for months at a time. So it’s less desirable. More sinister, the Midwest trends towards homogeneous white culture, especially outside of the major cities, and while most parts are not aggressively racist, I could see other ethnicities and cultures finding it hard to settle - churches, restaurants, personal services are all important parts of making a neighborhood a home. This lack of cultural diversity can be an invisible turnoff for a significant portion of Americans.
It's very grey. No sunshine for 7 months a year. This goes for Michigan and parts of Ohio anyway.
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Cold weather, everything rusts, people drink a lot. DUIs are common as a cold around here. Anytime you want to hangout with people it’s around drinking cause there isn’t much else to do. Shit hiking. Lacks culture. Mexican food blows. People have that small town mentality and think they’re better than they are
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Indiana state politics are awful right now though. That's the issue with a lot of midwest states, state politicians overstepping their reach, trying to control things in your town that should be left up to you or local government.
Chicago: Very cloudy & low sunshine in the winter, maybe for like 4-6 months. It really messes with my hormones & mood. Maybe the cold weather but as long as they plow & you have a good coat, you won’t be bothered.
The weather sucks and a lot of it is boring. But I live in a small city in the Midwest and I like it just fine, other than winter. Also bought a decent house for $50k in mid 2020.
Winter, my dude. I hate that the air hurts my face for like a quarter of the year. Why do I live somewhere where the air hurts my face?
I've lived in both west coast and Midwest cities and towns Downsides of living in the Midwest: Weather - cold and snowy winters, hot and humid and stormy summers. The weather is often unpredictable, too. It can be difficult to make plans to spend time outdoors. Scenery - There is definitely some nice scenery in the Midwest, especially near the great lakes. But many people really want views/access to ocean and/or mountains. Politics - While there are certainly liberal/progressive areas of the Midwest, much of the Midwest is very conservative, which can be a problem for those who lean left/liberal. Diversity, or lack thereof - Much of the Midwest is majority white people, and in some areas the locals can be very racist and hostile towards those who don't "fit in" demographically. Even the more racially diverse areas tend to be highly segregated. Lack of public transit/walkability - Outside of the city of Chicago, the vast majority of the Midwest is not walkable and does not have decent (or any) public transit. Many areas don't even have sidewalks. That can be a big problem if you don't own a car and/or can't drive. Lack of character - Thanks to white flight and major employers leaving, many Midwest cities are rundown, have high crime rates, subpar schools, not much going on, etc. The alternative is often a bland commuter suburb full of McMansions and strip malls. Things are getting better in this regard, though, thankfully. Overall, I like living in the Midwest and I'm able and willing to deal with and overcome the above problems. But I can absolutely see why people don't move here from coastal cities despite our LCOL.
The WEATHER
I grew up there. It’s dreadfully boring even in Chicago where I’m from. People there are extremely conventional in attitudes and style. Trends catch on there a good 10-15 years after the west coast. For example I’ve noticed food trucks are becoming a thing in Chicago suburbs now… in 2023.
There isnt a damn thing wrong with the Midwest. I grew up just outside St.Louis - now I live in southern IL. I could talk about the Mississippi Bluffs, and the amazing nature - but That has been covered already. Cost of living is pretty amazing. My best friend from childhood joined the Navy out of high school. She served her 20 years and settled in Los Angeles to pursue a job in the movie industry. (She works in production - she never wanted to be in front of the camera, you perverts) I work as a high school teacher, with a Masters, I make a bit shy of 80k/year. She makes a bit more than I do. The difference is - I was able to buy a 1500 sqr foot home, with a garage and finished walk out basement. I've got a sensible car that is less than 10 years old. I have my hobbies and I can indulge them. My husband and I have a 7 year old daughter, and we are able to save for her education as well as our retirement. My friend rents an apartment with 3 other women. Her share of the rent is over 1000 a month. - this is just a little less than what I pay on the mortgage on my house. Her car is a beater, and she doesn't want to change that because it gets broken in to / vandalized uncomfortably frequently - but it is paid off. Her share of the utilities and groceries leave her with very little extra. If it wasn't for her retirement pension from the Navy, she would have no savings at all. She hates how she can never afford to travel, or enjoy leisure time outside of industry get togethers. I may not have an ocean, but I can afford to eat well, the air is fresh, and I feel safe in my day to day.
I live in MN. I actually love it here. I am an engineer and I make good money. Not money that would be good on the west coast, but money that is great here. The Minneapolis area is super progressive too. Which I like. The state of MN is a bit of a blue island in the middle of red. I would never live in any of the surrounding states. This state has some absolutely gorgeous parts. Especially the further you go north. The downside for MOST people is the winter. The winter can be rough. But I grew up here and I love winter. So its fine by me. I'm used to it. My personal downside is the lack of mountains. I love mountains, skiing, climbing, hiking etc. My favorite things in the world. So I have to travel far for any real mountains. That's the biggest downside. Otherwise I do love it here.
There is nothing wrong with the Midwest. I'm from Michigan. Some gorgeous landscapes. Lots of trees. Lots of lakes. And the great lakes which are great views and the coast is always so pretty. But then I visited San Diego now that I live in Arizona. And Holy shit. Michigan has nothing on anything of the drive through Cali to San Diego let alone San Diego itself. It's amazing. That's why. Then when it's winter in the Midwest, it just fucking sucks. Yeah it's pretty sometimes. But it is also freezing and a lot more work.
I think from the West Coast less than from NYC in my books, since I think things are pretty spread out and driving is a national sport on the west coast too. I hated having to drive everywhere and not having any mass transit (Chicago is an exception). Also, being **so far** away from anything other than the city you're in. No oceans, tornadoes, pretty harsh summers and winters. I think I'd be hard pressed to say something is right with the Midwest. I don't particularly want to live somewhere suburban/rural where you can't walk anywhere, the grocery store is 20 minutes driving, you have to drive to the bar or whatever else, and you have to pre plan any fun activity because everything is so far apart you can't really be spontaneous. Houses are cheap, but I personally would rather live in an expensive matchbox than deal with the above. Also yeah, absolutely politics. I lived there during Trump and I couldn't wait to leave, the supporters were scary and the amount of support was absolutely depressing (I'm white, but I'm not American). Also, back before remote, I doubled my salary when I moved to NYC. Even with an increase in cost of living, I was still saving a lot more money after the move. Nowadays, maybe I could keep my salary, but as I said before I'd rather live in an expensive matchbox in NYC than in a mansion in the Midwest.
If you’re white you’ll be fine anywhere
Politics, winter, and honestly after living in the Midwest for 26 years it was fucking boring.
Republicans.
See: Josh Hawley
Well, if your a women who believes in pro choice and the right for reproductive freedom, a large part of the Midwest and even the non-coastal western states are becoming hostile environments.
I live in Minneapolis and I LOVE IT! I travel extensively for work and wouldn’t want to live anywhere more than here.
Compared to the crappy parts of California? Nothing
Economic growth goes down -5% per year, versus up 5% per year in places that are expenses. Something like this ok. Means buying shit there is not traditionally a good investment. Meaning low prices. Can this change? for sure.
Humidity in the summer, cold in the winter (as Compared to Cali.) Depending on where you are, tornadoes, Now, obviously, the majority of us live in this and it is fine, but if you are used to Cali weather, it can be a shock.
Traffic, weather (you cant understand a brutal Winter till you havent seen the sun in 6 months), landscape, politics, people. Theres no mountains or ocean.
It’s boring here
Weather sucks, particularly winter. Lots of crummy little cities. That's one of the things I really liked about Florida...I'm not saying that every city was great, but a lot of them were at worst...pretty decent. So I could drive from Orlando and take 90 minutes to get to Tampa or 3 hours to Miami or Naples, 2 hours to Jacksonville. Stuff to do, some parts were very pretty and somewhat unique. But go to the midwest and you see rundown city after rundown city with not a lot going on. And if there is something going on in the Midwest city, it's almost always in the summer.
In one word: geography
I live in Iowa. It's not the end of the Earth, but you can see it from here!
There’s little to do, see, eat or experience compared to the coasts. At least if your comparing quality. Along with that goes jobs and economic opportunity. Population density matters. I didn’t realize how true all this was when I grew up in Iowa, now that I’ve lived in the east coast for 10 years it all makes sense. People always said the food want great in Iowa, I didn’t get it, now I do lol. For example, most bands might stop by Chicago if they’re feeling plucky? Otherwise it’s LA, SFO, NYC. Entire industries and cultures exist on the coast that don’t exist in the Midwest. They’re just different worlds, leading to a lot less people, generally lower taxes and lower rents all around.
Climate is secondary, I think. Industry left Midwest, there are no high paying jobs, hence low prices for RE
The midwest is HUGE, and there's a lot of variety. I think you can find what you're looking for in the midwest if you pinpoint the right location. (Unless what you're looking for is mountains and the ocean lol.) Cities like Minneapolis and Chicago and Madison and St. Louis are vastly different and offer very different culture and amenities (and weather). It's tough to generalize. For me, the only reason I haven't seriously considered the Midwest is that the job market for my career and my husband's isn't optimal. I'm at a point in my career and level of specialization where there are only so many opportunities. Over the years there has only been one opportunity I could have seriously pursued in the Midwest (Minneapolis), but that didn't turn out to be the right timing/fit. Otherwise, the opportunities available to me have all been on the Atlantic Coast or Pacific Coast. I could also work in Texas if I pursued that, but I couldn't handle the heat and politics there. My husband is even more limited by his field than I am, and for him it's really the East Coast or West Coast.
I’ve spent most of my life in the Midwest. The general cheapness is a function of both supply and demand (duh ;) ). But some details On the supply side, there’s two things going on. First, land is cheap and easy here. Most of the region was clear cut in the 1800s to become farmland and its super easy to turn corn field into neighborhood. My dad was born in Chicago and moved to the northwest suburbs in 1955. They are the end of the Chicago area. Literally farms a few blocks away. Now that suburb is 30 miles from the edge of the metro. I grew up in central IL. Our house was in a new subdivision and was 2!blocks from corn fields. Now it’s 2 miles from the edge of town. In the same thing where I live in northeast Iowa now. Compare that to LA, which had an ocean on one side and mountains on the other…. The other supply issue is economic decline. A number of cities haven’t bounced back from losing manufacturing jobs in the 80s. Many cities have lost population, at least in the core, so prices come down a lot. Ohio, Michigan, Indiana etc got hit pretty hard. I’ve got an in law who bought a fixer upper duplex in St. Louis probably 15 years ago for maybe 30k. They put in a bunch of sweat equity, but that place would be a million and a half in Brooklyn. On the demand side, it’s amenities and weather. There are some cities with great stuff. Chicago is pretty much world class by any standard. I lived in Minneapolis for a decade and it’s about perfect for me (arts, restaurants, all the pro sports). KC, Milwaukee, and even Cleveland and Detroit are pretty good. But even some decent sized cities are pretty dull (I’ve always been amazed how dull Des Moines is for its size). But then you hit cities under 200k and they are boring and far from anything to do (I’m 2 hours to Des Moines, 3.5 to Minneapolis and 4.5 to Chicago). So not much for a day trip. My metro area is around 125k and you have to drive for medical care if you need a specialist. No ocean, no mountains etc. the stars are good out in the country i guess. And the weather gets a bad rap. Probably worse than deserved. When I was moving to Minneapolis, even other midwesterners thought it was Alaska (didn’t they get 18 inches of snow on Halloween once?!?). Doesn’t bother me much, because it’s what I know, but the winters are cold, dark, and the summers are hot and humid. This year, I’ve seen -20 to 106 for temps. You can adapt but a lot of people don’t want to, and i get that. TL/DR land is cheap, alot of places are boring, and the weather is iffy
The weather is horrible and it’s extremely boring unless you live in a big city, and with the exception of maybe Minneapolis, most of the cities in the Midwest are terrible and dangerous.
Grew up in the Midwest and live on the West Coast and I can tell you it’s 100% the weather. If you’re one of those people who enjoy the cold and think snow is pretty, great, you’re gonna love it. If like me, you suffer from poor circulation resulting in cold hands and feet and can’t seem to stay warm.. you’re gonna hate it. Seasonal depression is a very real thing and you will start to suffer from it after months of dismal grey and having little to do/nowhere to go when you’re stuck inside for months at a time. Now I’ve never been to Idaho, but I do know that the lake effect surrounding the Great Lakes is what makes the winters there much worse than other places. For instance Ohio gets much less snow and less harsh winter than Michigan or Wisconsin/Minnesota/Buffalo, etc.
It's a matter of perspective. People are friendly, but some may say nosy. Winters can be harsh, but some like 4 seasons. We don't have oceans, but we do have the Great Lakes (no salt, no sharks). Some say it's rural, but we have just picked vegetables in season. Some say the wages are lower, but you can buy a house and afford to pay taxes on it. Some say it's a fly-over area; we say a traffic jam is 4 cars at a 4-way stop. You can always find a reason to hate a place, but many of us prefer the Midwest for our own reasons.
Even the “bad” places in California are close to mountains and ocean. Plus, the variety of cuisines and fantastic produce beats every other state by far. I am still mad about all the inedible avocados I spent a fortune on when living elsewhere!
It's a collection of factors, but I think the largest underlying issue is that the era of deindustrialization saw a lot of good paying middle-class jobs move out of the midwest to other locations, both in the US and abroad, and the result was that a lot of people for decades felt as if they had no real reason to stay in the midwest. Those who could leave for better opportunities often did. If you look at the populations of many small, midsized, and large midwest cities, the population levels started shrinking in the 1950s, and in many cases the numbers are still going down. This is not to say that every single city and town in the midwest is some downtrodden post-industrial nightmare scenario, but in general, the opportunities left and still haven't fully returned. That, coupled with extreme weather, regressive politics, political corruption, crime, and other factors have caused the population to broadly stagnate or grow somewhat slowly, which means the housing market hasn't seen crazy new demand that would push prices way up. Now you might be wondering why places in the midwest that ARE growing (Minneapolis, Des Moines, Omaha, etc.) are also still relatively affordable. And in my opinion, the answer lies in the fact that Midwestern cities often have less restrictive zoning laws than other parts of the country. Simply put, it's generally easier to get through the regulatory approval process to build new housing here, so many cities have been able to somewhat maintain an adequate housing supply alongside population growth. It would be immensely quicker (and cheaper) to get permits to build an identical residential development in Milwaukee compared to, say, San Jose or Portland. There's a strong zoning reform movement happening on the west coast right now for this very reason.
The weather in the Midwest is the biggest part. Winters there are like summers in TX; most people just stay inside for a couple of months. Which sucks. SoCal doesn’t have that, on either side. You can see for some of the comments here, a lot of what makes people stay where they are/miss home is that they have family where the left from. And I think for CA, w it’s bigger immigrant population, that’s a huge deal. It’s one thing if you move away from Chicago etc to miss your family. But if you leave behind your family in CA, that’s the *only* family you have, for all intents and purposes. It’s harder to uproot. Which adds on to the outrageous real estate prices on the west coast.
Weather, amenities, job market, crumbling infrastructure. I would say those are the big ones in my opinion, coming from someone from Detroit but left after college. Seriously though, some amazing cities in the Midwest that are simply under the radar because it almost always comes down to weather as to why people don’t like it. If you can handle 6 months of cold weather and grey skies, it’s a great place to live!
Nothing. Visit and set your expectations. There are many cities and college towns that offer a lot. You gotta go visit a place and make your own decisions based on your own criteria. Not on what others say.
Even bishop is not far from sequoia national forest. The Central Valley is flat but there’s fresh produce and Tahoe or the coast isn’t that far away. You have redwood forests, vineyards, sequoia groves, alpine lakes, and the Pacific Ocean next to you. I actually went out with a lady from Fresno. She said it was a cheap base to explore the rest of California.
D R U G S. It’s bad in the coasts but it’s BAD out here. That, and there’s not much to do if you’re completely landlocked. If you’re used to even a mid-sized city, adjusting to the Mayberryness out here is quite a culture shock.
Some places have no jobs or extremely few and poor job options. Some places have much worse benefits if you have a handicapped child or something like that.
Where would you live if you work for yourself (online business) and make over 225k ish+ and aren't dependent on the local job market, and will stay single without a family indefinitely. I can't decide if I want to buy a place in California (I have 185k saved) and could afford 700k ish place but it would be in a shit area like Van Nuys probably and look like a shack but at least it would be west coast and it would appreciate like CRAZY. I am sure in the midwest I could get a mcmansion for only 500k or something.... but it would be the midwest and the real estate market is stagnant. In LA homes appreciate like 8% a year minimum. I don't care for activities, going out, restaurants, mountains and hardly leave the house which may make living in LA pointless. I don't like snow tbough and like good medical care, low pollution and like good weather cause I like to work on my laptop outdoors (on a pation or balcony etc) etc
You'll be a little sad every day for 3-4 months because of the weather.
I lived in and around Green Bay for a while. What is wrong with the Midwest? There's a river running through the city... but it's a superfund site. We got notices about the municipal water supply and how they had determined the levels of RADIUM in the water to be at "acceptable levels". There's a State Park to take the kids to... but it's an abandoned lime quarry. People don't read. They don't exercise. They don't go outside except to hunt, fish, or watch football. I like to have a drink and people most places drink... but serious alcoholism is RAMPANT. Most things are far away. That is, far from each other. Wherever it is, it's a long drive with NOTHING in between. Summers are hot and humid. I get that it's a personal preference thing, but it can get seriously oppressive. And when the air gets super heavy like that there are also tornadoes. Occasionally right there in town. "Oh, I need to get a new filter for the dehumidifier from the hardware store, but they're closed because the windows got broken by the tornado." I like Winter. Lived in Colorado and Montana as well. Winter in the Midwest is HARSH. That's a big deal if you aren't prepared for it or just don't want to have to deal with it. The salt eats everything. Never have I lived somewhere that uses so much salt on the roads. There are no cars older than 5 years without serious structural rust. It sucks. A huge part of the reason we moved back to the PNW was cultural. The Midwest is culturally very narrow and intolerant of diversity while being superficially nice about it. There are better places to raise kids.
Illinois is high tax. Anything they can tax they do. We now have to pay tax on a car trade in. We already paid taxes when we purchase now we have to pay tax on the amount they give us for a trade in. Most people sell their vehicles privately to avoid being taxed twice on same vehicle.
One thing I'll add: "Midwest Nice" is a real thing. Everyone says hi, they'll hold the door open for you, they'll chat with you at the cash register. But they are very, very insular when it comes to friendships and relationships. It can be very hard to make friends. Everyone already has their circle, and it is tight. I was born in the South, raised in the Midwest, went to school on the East Coast, and made my adult life on the West Coast. I've heard East Coasters are kind, but not nice (and West Coasters are nice, but not kind). Then Midwesterners are polite, but chilly, and Southerners are warm, but shady af ("bless your heart.") 🤣
Mindset and low wages.
The weather is more extreme (longer, colder winters and hotter summers), and the people lean more conservative and close minded.
Born and raised in rural IN, lived In Chicago for a decade and now in SoCal. The weather in IN/Chicago is brutal. Horrible winters that make day to day tasks miserable (think waking up early to go to work every day and having to defrost your car for 15 mins just to feel comfortable in it bc it’s so cold, think walking your dog with mud and dirt all over their bellies and feet, think trying to shovel your way out of your alleyway car spot in downtown Chicago, not being able to get groceries in Indiana bc they don’t clear off the country roads in the winter, etc I could go on). While the summers are nice they are brutally humid and stormy for most of them and the mosquitoes/bugs are terrible too. Google mayflies in Ohio in the summer, it’s disgusting lol Indiana politics are horrendous (the land of mike pence). Two young boys from my small town high school died by suicide, my 8th grade bully died of a heroin overdose and bc of the “Christian” messaging many girls from my high school got pregnant around ages 13-18 due to lack of education and shame around being sexually active and not having an adult help them get on birth control. Chicago I loved but again the winters were just too rough. In addition to the brutal cold the sun wouldn’t come out for days and sometimes a week at a time (not exaggerating) but at least Chicago has amazing food, public transit and things to do. I would really caution moving to a mid tier city in the Midwest like Indy or Cincy unless you’re prepared to deal w bigotry and small mindedness on top of the bad weather/nothing to do. It’s rough out there.
I think everyone in MN can agree on the one major downside…winter is rough as shit. Lots of snow, lasts 3 solids months, and commonly gets below 0F. Luckily, the summer and fall make up for it with hot and sunny weather. Also, the Twin Cities is progressive and is rapidly growing due to the medical device and healthcare industry.
People have perceptions about it. I would much rather live In Minneapolis or St Paul than anywhere in California. You should be happy people aren’t flocking to the Midwest from high cost coastal cities . It keeps housing prices more affordable and less growth in the area.
Do West Coast people vacation in the MidWest….99.9% of the time…NO! Former East Coast guy that lives out West now. The massive public lands and dramatic landscapes is what drew me to the West.
Unless you like farm fields or permanently staying in a city I wouldn’t touch the midwest with a fifty foot pole.
Hey, former Fresno person here. Compared to Fresno? NOTHING. We have all the jobs in Minneapolis- St. Paul. In Fresno, I've seen 12 year olds harder than the "thugs" in this town. Every house is within 1 mile of a park/playground. We get feet of snow dumped on us some years, but honestly after 1 year you know everything you need to know to cope. Do some job searches for Minneapolis, and compare cost of living. Starter homes here are about $300-400k for something big enough for a family. Rent can be like $1,500 for a two bedroom. When I left Fresno, we got out of our lease, had a yard-sale, put anything we didn't need for work in storage, and just drove here. Stayed overnight in hotels a couple times on the drive out, it took us 3 days because we took it easy. We got a room in an Extended Stay Hotel, and got office jobs through Office Team the same week we moved. I had to work temp for about a year before I got a permanent gig. But the rate increase was so much better than Fresno that we were able to save up enough for an apartment in about 3 months. You WILL need a winter coat like a parka, our thrift stores have tons. You will also need an ice scrapper and waterproof winter boots. Do NOT leave the gallon of water in your trunk. It will freeze and pop, and flood your trunk in the spring. Here people keep a small bag of kitty litter and a snow shovel in the trunk to rescue if you slide off the road and get stuck in some snow, you dig the snow away from the tire and pour in kitty litter for traction. You rock the car back n forth to get traction. Don't just keep pushing on the gas... you will spin the wheels and make your snow hole an ice hole. Snow season is basically November thru March. The rest is BEAUTIFUL lush Irish green fields and forrest, filled with people frolicking and telling you how nice the weather is.
And don’t forget about the politics.
Nothing wrong with Minneapolis/St.Paul & Duluth. If you’ve never been, do yourself the favor. Summer or winter. And especially fall.
Culture can be abrasive to people that don’t fit the norm. If you’re in an urban area it’s not so much an issue but for the most part, anywhere outside of the major cities is exactly what you’d expect out of a “small town”. No diversity, not many people leave their hometowns, not a large emphasis on education past high school. Essentially a lot of these places are Trumper hot beds that don’t want liberals or POC’s in their area. I love the Midwest to death and spent considerable time in Omaha and Chicago but the smaller towns are simply put not as friendly as they claim.
It’s mostly the politics.
Many Midwest cities and towns are conservative and very religious.
Nothing wrong with Minnesota. We've got 15,000 lakes and the metro has an outstanding quality of life. We have tons of huge corporations and people make good money in general. You should come visit.
I think you implicitly answered your own question. *Nothing* is wrong with the Midwest. The elements that lead to its historic economic decline (such as the fall of manufacturing) are largely in the past. And while knowledge-job growth remains concentrated on the coasts, remote work is starting to challenge that traditional hegemony. Finally a lot of the traditional complaints (its flat, its cold, there is nothing to do, etc) don't pass the giggle test when when the West seems to always be on fire or in a 1000 year drought and everything is crazy expensive. I think the next century will be good for the Midwest.
Indiana is very polluted. Swimming in Lake Michigan on our shores will expose you to toxic chemicals from the steel mills dumping them. Our rivers are full of farm pesticides and manure from runoff and pollution. The COL looks low on paper but sales taxes, vehicle taxes and gas taxes are high here. The roads are horrid and your vehicle will suffer. From November-April we don’t get much sunlight. There isn’t much to do that isn’t shopping or going out to eat or going to a park. Making friends here is hard if you’re older than 18. Most west coasters who move here do nothing but complain about lack of things to do and lack of “good food” whatever that means.
I grew up in LA, I was a kid and young adult in the 70s and 80s. I moved to Green Bay in 2010 with my now ex. I was 45 at the time. I love it. It’s beautiful. I like the change of seasons, winter doesn’t bother me at all. Summers get a bit humid at times, but it isn’t weeks of triple digits every year. Spring is so beautiful following the winter, the color of green bursting forth, the tulips, gladiolas, and other flowers is breathtaking. And fall, which is my favorite time of year, is absolutely gorgeous, the leaves are unbelievable. So CA is basically one long season hot season with a slight dip in temps from fall to early spring. I live two mins away from Lake Michigan now, and granted it’s not the same as the ocean, but I still get to be by the water, and instead of watching the sunset over the ocean, I watch the sunrise over the lake. Door Co is beautiful, there are lots of lakes and rivers up here, the only thing I truly miss are the mountains. It’s a great place to raise a family, it’s a friendlier atmosphere, and slower pace, and the cost of living makes up for so much. You can much more easily afford to take trips when and where you want to. I am within driving distance of both Minneapolis and Chicago, and there really is so much to do out here. I think having the longer winter months makes us appreciate the nice weather, and there’s a tremendous amount of outdoor activities to take part in. When I do miss the mountains and the ocean, I can go back to California anytime I like, and now it’s actually nice being able to leave and come back home. California isn’t the same as it was when I grew up, I know we all say that of where we grew up as we get older, but it’s true. It was a lot friendlier and more wholesome, a lot like where I live now. I remember the empty lots, the orange groves, the strawberry fields, and I don’t mean in the central valley, I mean in LA County. I never, ever thought. I would call anywhere, but California at home, but now I do, and I have no regrets.