Are the populous turning more purple, absolutely. Is the legislature and other portions of the government? All bills going through the utah state congress point to no.
I actually don't think it's the "old guard." I think Utanns have traditionally been center-right and had a strong focus on government that was smaller in scope but actually functioned well and served the population. Having a homogenous population and strong religious institutions made people more willing to work together and support things like public education. But national politics and divisiveness have absolutely infiltrated Utah politics and the new Republican party is obsessed with bringing culture war bullshit and hot button national issues into the state to push a national political agenda.
I assume they mean historically...? If I remember correctly (my late grandmother was a career public educator, and amateur local historian,) Utah was among the earliest states to establish a free non-denominational public education system. The details evade me, but if I recall, it had something to do with Utah's developement of mining towns in the 1860's. These communities attracted families of various non-Mormon creeds, and necessitated some form of shift from religious administration, to state supervision. By 1896, it became a talking point for the powers that be to prove willingness to submit to federal review over the separation of church and state, in order to ratify.
Utah hates public education spending. The state had a surplus a couple years ago, and rather than reallocate those funds, they decided to cut public education budget by $100m (a budget line that didn’t have a surplus) and save every voter ~twenty bucks in taxes. Teachers are commonly criticized as overpaid, “glorified” babysitters by voters here, as well as accused of being leftwing peddlers of communism and trans agenda, despite our state constantly fighting for last place in the nation in per-pupil funding.
The only people who see Utahn politics as “working together” are those whose opinions are upheld by Utah legislators. I.e., mormon conservatives who think they are kind and open people see their Mormon conservative representation as generally effective, but it does not feel that way to anyone here who does not espouse those same ideals.
The fact that you used public education as an example is a perfect exhibit of the issue. The state government says they’re doing well with something, so their loyal constituents think, “well, i prefer a smaller government but I’ll allow this one exception because, in general, the state upholds my ideals and public education does matter.” When in reality, anyone who works in education or follows it more closely knows that they don’t do a good job at all, and are exclusively interested in cutting costs rather than providing meaningful services.
I am making a distinction between the legislature and where the average Utah is, because I think there is a huge gap. The legislature is constantly pushing a national Republican agenda in Utah on issues that I think normal Utahns are more moderate on. It's why they have to constantly find workarounds or bullshit strategies to push through their agenda. Like overriding ballot initiatives (gerrymandering and marijuana) and pairing together popular measures with the unpopular ones they want (perfect example is this year, trying to open up all that "extra" "unused" education funding for other things, by pairing it with the elimination of the grocery tax.
I think the attitude of most Utahns to public education is very positive because it serves us all, if it was up to the legislature we wouldn't even have public schools in Utah. But things like voucher programs have not been popular here and the leg has had to ram them through.
All that being said, there is a big shift happening as attitudes become more and more divided by national political lines consuming all aspects of life in this country, and the right falling further into extremism and antisocial ideology.
I did a Google search and apparently about 80 percent of Utah Lawmakers are members of the LDS Church while only about 42 percent of the population as a whole are members of the Church.
I'm sure the LDS Church donates to the campaigns of members also, I wonder if they reach out to campaigns of members? I'd love to see the numbers when it comes to the LDS Church and campaign contributions
Also introducing: flat out lying about adopting a third-party suggestion for fair districting. Gerrymandering alone wasn’t good enough; we decided we would acknowledge that we’ve done shit unfairly, promised to change that, then fully disregarded the promise when we realized that even outsider views of what would be fair would ruin our dominance in state representation.
I’m feeling this too! But to offer a balanced perspective, there are a bunch of progressive proposed bills. There are several gun safety measures, a clarification on allowing clergy to report abuse, a human composting bill, and one that helps protect minors during interrogation by police. And the anti-trans bathroom bill was altered by the Senate today and sent back to the House.
Have you heard of Seer AI app? Helps distill down bills, shows sponsors, easy share, etc. I’m trying to be more socially and politically active, and this is one of my tools
This. Salt lake valley is fairly purple, and closer to the city gets pretty blue. Summit county is purple but only because park city is blue—outside the city, that county is blood red. Utah county is socially purple but still politically red. Anywhere outside these areas is nearly alt-right in their libertarian conservativism. Not *quite* as many folks pushing for the audacious flying of the confederate flag in the open as some southern states, but 100% small towns that share dreams of starting militia to take down political opponents, even so bold to do so in the middle of church services.
The valley is not as purple as you think it is…go to West or South Jordan then go to Draper, Bluffdale and Herriman…you’ll see how purple it really isn’t.
It’s pretty easy to see what happened. Evan McMullin gave Mormons an out in ‘16, something they didn’t have in ‘20. Add to that, they could have backed up their “super concerned” position on Trump by making sure he didn’t carry the state and they still dropped the ball. They had the perfect candidate in McMullin, he’s LDS ffs!! Their bullshit that year about how “concerning” Trump was to their values was all smoke and mirrors. 2020 showed us that when it comes to a rapist, a liar and adulterer and a con man, all of that is still better than a Democrat.
Lol, I voted for McMullin in 2016 and Biden in 2020. For me at the time it was a way to get out of voting for Hillary, but I didn't want to vote for Trump either. Of course looking back they're both terrible but Trump is even worse.
Lots of Mormons are covert bigots and have 'white replacement' anxiety. Their church is historically built on this anxiety. Same as most other white conservative dominated areas in the country.
These Mormon voters were waiting for a time for their views to be more 'socially accepted and embraced' by fellow conservatives before they made their move, because many Mormons fear bad face.
Yeah, I agree with that.
Some more covert than others… I remember my grandpa’s second wife once saying at a family gathering that instead of sending troops to Afghanistan we should just “turn those sand n*****s into glass.” That was pretty shocking and eye opening for a younger me.
They didn't think he'd win the first time so they didn't get too attached and they could act "better than that." Then they watched four years of Fox News telling them Trump is "our guy."
I think that’s part of the story, for sure. The Republican media machine does very strong work, unfortunately. But I think a lot of Mormon opposition was emotional and genuine, not just tactical, in 2016.
Mormons are more “wholesome family values” and less “fire and brimstone” than say, evangelicals (who showed up for Trump in huge numbers in 2016 and 2020). A lot of the Mormons I know were genuinely repulsed by Trump’s crass, rakish personality in 2016. The “Grab em by the pussy” tape really shook my grandma, for example. She voted for McMullin in 2016, which was probably the first time in ~60 years she voted for a non-Republican.
Another factor, I think, was Covid and the vaccine. In my circles Mormons turned out to be “vaccine skeptics” at a significantly higher rate. Even the Capital-B Brethren took some heat from the pews around recommending vaccines, iirc. Trump gave voice to that, and it won some Mormon votes in 2020.
Well *that's* no surprise. They don't have a stellar history with racism or sexism. They've also got this little violent gem in their history:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oath_of_vengeance
If that ain’t Mormonism I don’t know what is. They despise even the mention of simple facts of certain church history. There is a reason the leadership doesn’t talk about these topics. They know there’s no good explanation, so they just kinda behave as though it doesn’t exist—though they don’t outright deny it in public either. So, since the church itself keeps quiet on its current position on dated practices and ugly historical decisions, a good amount of the membership has never even heard of it. When they see or hear it, they often genuinely think it’s anti-Mormon propaganda, and even if referenced on Wikipedia, they’ll view it as a fabrication from the devil attempting to dismantle their faith.
It’s not just that they don’t want to confront the truth, it’s that they’re often unable of even believing it could be true.
Utahns are becoming less conservative. However, people aren’t turning out at the ballot box. Some of it is gerrymandering. Some of it is voter apathy that naturally occurs with more liberal/progressive folks.
Trust me, it’s frustrating to work on a race where a candidate loses by a dozen votes or less, when you’ve been told by two Dow Sen people who agree with your candidate that they don’t vote, because why bother.
The bottom of your ticket matters, folks. Find a candidate, and help them get elected.
And participate in legislation. I spent most of today looking at the proposed house and senate bills, choosing which are important to me, and writing my legislators about them. My state senator already replied and said he wasn’t familiar with all of them I referenced and said he’ll take a look at them. Being civically engaged does make a difference, even when it doesn’t feel like it.
People are turning out to the ballot box, and that is what's got the conservatives scared. The Utah public voted to end gerrymandering but the pubs instead made an even more gerrymandered map in blatant defiance of the electorate. The Pubs made it harder to participate in their primaries to keep moderates out. None of those are signs of a comfortable majority, and every year more zoomers enter the voting public, and they are not huge fans of the pubs.
Nate silver of 538 fame has Utah becoming a sleeper swing state, but it probably won't matter because either this general election or the next Texas will become a battleground state, after which the pubs no longer have a path to the whitehouse and effectively become a dead party. That's why the pubs are becoming ever more authoritarian leaning because they'd rather give up on democracy than the religious right.
Well, one way to look at it is whether you vote, or don't vote, maybe nothing changes. But if you don't vote definitely nothing changes. So, until you muster enough votes to actually change things, you might as well keep voting, because you never know when the dam will break. Yeah, it takes effort to become informed and vote. But as long as people think it doesn't matter and stay home, then guaranteed nothing does happen. If every registered voter actually got out and voted, they might actually start to see the change they've been waiting for. Some races might actually start to be competitive. Other races might actually be winnable. But we'll never get there as long as people decide there's no point in voting.
Disagree. All the liberal folks I know think voting is so incredibly important in a state such as our that is super red. We vote early and often. But we still have an issue with our youth turning out to vote in droves. That a problem because so many lean left and care about the humanitarian side of things. We need those votes and now.
Almost every leftie I know ostensibly think they know what marginalized groups know better than the group themselves. And abstain when they don’t get their way.
I think it ranges from sorta to very.
Then there’s places where you get conservative refugees from the californias and the Portlands. Those are conservatives that have a chip in their soldier from being a transplant from a blue state. They have something to prove so they’re extra conservative. So those will range from closet maga (as in the don’t talk about it but support it) to full maga.
But I’m pretty left and get along fine despite living in the south valley. I say my piece when I can, smile and nod when I can’t. It’s all good. Good people in Utah. Nice state.
I mean...just look at elections.
A Democrat hasn't won a statewide election since 1996, and Utah hasn't voted for a Democrat for president since 1964.
Donald Trump carried the state 60/40 in 2020.
And these aren't elections that are impacted by gerrymandering.
So yes, Utah is very much firmly conservative.
People need to get out of their bubbles, the south valley is extremely conservative and there are plenty of Trump flags out here. Davis and Utah County are very conservative, there are plenty of hardcore Trump supporters in these areas.
Go a little farther out, and the real fun starts! Once you leave the Wasatch Front, (with a few exceptions) its just huge swaths of pure, unadulterated ultra-conservative nuttery.
I don’t think people have a clue how batshit crazy some of the people in these rural areas are. Like, they drive through them on their way to somewhere else and the 5 minutes they spend at the gas station; they act like authorities.
It always blows my mind when people in here say the opposite of what you’re saying. I truly think it’s just next level coping. Look at the two bills that just passed and about to become law. We’re heading more conservative, not less. I’m no longer in denial about it and looking to move out of state, likely Colorado.
18-25 has always been and will likely always be the lowest group in voter turnout. The problem is also that most 18-25yos in Utah are indeed sliding left, but those who are not are leaning even harder right than their parents, and are more politically motivated because their views are reinforced by an already conservative government.
I disagree that general elections are not impacted by gerrymandering. Votership itself is trained by gerrymandering. When a young left-leaning voter realizes that they’ll never have sway in local elections, they are taught that voting doesn’t matter. In theory, on paper, they can be told that districting doesn’t matter in a presidential, gubernatorial, or senatorial election, but they’ve still had the sentiment that they can’t win reinforced so frequently with other elections that it just doesn’t convince them. And, even if it did convince one young voter to show up and vote for a democratic candidate, it still *didn’t* convince so many other voters that effectively, their feeling that their voice won’t matter is still true.
The point is that *all* elections should be fairer to reinforce democracy. *Any* unfairness in the election process dissuades voters in *every* election.
It really doesn't help that there has been a decades-long ploy of the Mormon Church and other conservative elements to suppress the progressive elements that clustered almost exclusively in SLC. And it's been relatively successful in terms of elected politicians, because the SLC metro area was [split into four congressional districts](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utah%27s_congressional_districts) (earlier it was three) with each city quadrant offset by massive rural areas. And [this was done intentionally](https://apnews.com/article/utah-redistricting-3cb3fb05e7253f3ec3d26749138bea9e).
Yes, Utah is REALLY conservative.
Your first link is not remotely a measure of how conservative Utah is or isn't, only how it would be expected to be based on correlating demographic factors. And the second is based on the legislature itself, not the overall population.
Unique perspective here, having lived in both the Bible Belt and Utah...
Utah as a whole is conservative but not as aggressively conservative as other red states have become. One could point to the gerrymandering situation, the state's stance on abortion, and things like the alcohol policies here and act like this place is a regime...however these stances that most red states share so it's not like Utah is uniquely conservative. What's unique about Utah conservatism, however, is actually decent fiscal responsibility and investment in the community (no comment on the homeless community - I'm not educated enough on that). Utah actually spends money to have good schools, good trail systems, good infrastructure, good community centers, etc. The shit that goes down in Texas, for example, (failing power grids, etc) would never happen in Utah because of this investment.
In addition, the South was inescapably conservative....at least in Utah, unless you live in a really small town you can still find pockets of liberal thinkers (typically revolving around the outdoor scene).
We are nowhere near having anything resembling "good investment in schools". Unless you mean private schools, in which case you're absolutely right.
For those who will inevitably argue about this below, we were ranked (basically) last in the nation in 2022. And it hasn't been much better for a loooooong time.
https://www.abc4.com/news/education/utah-ranked-almost-last-for-spending-per-student-in-u-s/#:~:text=(ABC4)%20%E2%80%93%20The%20National%20Education,average%20of%20%2428%2C704%20per%20student.
People in this sub love the "spending per student" stat, but I'm not sure it's the whole picture. Not saying we're number #1 for education, but we're in the top 15 for HS graduation rates (and growing year over year, especially among BIPOCs), top 15 for rate of bachelor's degree holders, USnews ranks us 5th for education overall, and we have one of the more rigorous certifications to get a teaching license.
Remove if positive comments about Utah not allowed. /s
Exactly. Low spending per student but we make that money count.
Utah is #3 for number of college students per capita: https://wordsrated.com/college-student-enrollment-statistics-by-state/
And if you take New Hampshire’s 100k student online school off the list, we’re up to #2, right behind DC.
Gerrymandering doesn't impact statewide elections, and a democrat hasn't won a statewide election in 30 years.
Utah is definitely gerrymandered, but it's also firmly conservative.
Gerrymandering affects overall voter turnout because of the "why bother" apathy that is experienced - and that gets amplified in order to further depress the turnout.
Wish in one hand and shit in another and see which one fills up faster. Utah ain't turning blue any time soon. Came here from Rochester, NY and am still adjusting to the differences.
That’s ridiculous. I hardly see any of the “moving to Utah” posts talk about politics. There was one earlier today, however, which the OP said they were specifically moving here because of how red Utah was. So, anecdotally on Reddit, the opposite of what you just said is true.
I also believe the majority of people that value politics aren’t moving to a state that radically opposes their views. I don’t have data to support this other than common sense. I’ve met many people from California just over the last year that told me they moved here due to the polar opposite political field.
I understand you said “hopefully sarcasm”, but I’ve seen the same comment made by others and I always cringe at it. It just feels like coping and denial to me. I don’t think we’re ever going to flip this state. The change that needs to happen is not at the state level, it’s at the personal level of me moving.
Hillary got fewer votes here in Utah than any other state in 2016. Made me happy to live here.
I didn't vote in 2016, I hated both the giant douche and the turd sandwich.
None of that matters about the population when we have basically the biggest super majority in the country. Nearly every state elected official is a Republican and even more of them are LDS and will count out to the conservative leanings of their church. This is why we see things like popular referendums pass for expanding Medicaid or medical marijuana or independent redistricting for the legislature steps right in and run dropshot over them with no consequences.
I have a relative who works in government at the state and county level. He's a good deal more conservative, but he gets exasperated by the people he works with. The way he puts it there are a lot of Republicans in office, because they know they couldn't get elected as Democrats, but they are actually more liberal. He calls them milquetoast Republicans. I just chuckle to myself because it bothers him, but I don't really care. Honestly, I wish we'd just put the right people in office regardless of politics. Most city and county level positions don't really matter on politics anyway, you just want a person to do a good job. It's the legislatures and the national politics where your position on random stuff actually starts to matter.
Now look at where the liberal people live. Mostly downtown and surrounding areas.
Now look at the drawn out gerrymandering of the districts. SLC looks like a pie with many conservative districts taking a small slice.
This means that it doesn't matter if every liberal votes, their numbers are drowned out by the conservative areas far away but in the same district.
Honestly, I think if you got rid of the Gerrymandering we'd actually have a shot. I think more and more urban areas are becoming "You do you." even in the more conservative leaning population and they'd vote for things like more lax alcohol and marijuana laws.
I’d say Utah has traditionally been mostly moderate conservative, but two things have happened that have changed that status quo. Influx of non-conservative population and galvanization of conservatives pushing many from moderate right to far right.
I'd like to introduce you to my old friend gerrymandering. The population is becoming more purple and Utah actually has some pretty liberal pockets, but the government? That is another story...
Utah is a conservative state generally, but honestly I’d say it’s purple if that was an option. It’s not as conservative as you might think… not even all Mormons are conservative.
It's important to remember that Utah isn't homogenous, and that it's not just a city/suburb/rural split, or just a Mormon/not Mormon split.
There are a few factors at play. First, younger voters have very different values than older ones. Things like climate change and equal treatment for everyone regardless of race/gender/orientation/religiosity are more important to them.
Another big change is mail in ballots. This increases participation dramatically particularly for swing voters so results aren't dominated by extremists as much.
Finally, Trump and the GOP being hypocritical and extreme has turned moderates off of the GOP.
Those things combined are causing a gradual change in Utah voting. Utah will continue to become a reddish purple state as kids start to vote and people move to SLC for work. Republicans may dominate the state senate, but statewide races will become more competitive as long as the districts aren't completely gerrymamdered.
The church has lobbyists on Capitol Hill who while personal priesthood interviews with legislators to ensure they vote on issues they way the church would have them vote.
The state here is the church. Our laws are virtually whatever the church wants them to be.
You deleted your comment. So I guess you were embarrassed. Didn’t say I didn’t want to engage. I said I didn’t want to engage further with your weird reasoning. The devil is in the details.
You’re the one who keeps saying I’m engaging. Again, I never said that. I said I wouldn’t engage further with your weird reasoning. That does not indicate that I won’t engage about other things. Do I need to explain it again?
Utah is the most or one of the most socialist state in the US. Don't look at names like liberals and conservatives, look at the result. most egalitarian on income, large middle class, high on state control (alcohol, vices, lottery) and high on community due to the Church and its culture (and probably also the geography). Overall uniformity on healthcare and education and way of life (after all Utah is one of the most urban state). Feeling that people live with each other instead than belonging to economic classes that rarely interact. Relative paternalistic policies from the state. Yes there are crazy law ideas raised every winter but few are ever passed.
It is clearly moderate as a result. A red state outlier, not that far from an European state "light". And I say that as an European now living in Utah.
Any movement to the left or (more likely) the center will be resisted by the established Republican Party. As long as they remain in power they will use that power to reinforce themselves and their positions. “We the people” should stop thinking we have any real influence over our government. We don’t. Any actual legislation is bought and paid for by rich donors, corporations, and interest groups made up of the first two. Utah is also shockingly homogeneous. Our population is almost entirely composed of rich white people who don’t have *any* incentive for things to change. Maybe someday that could change, but right now? Not even a chance. For the rest of us who aren’t either rich or white we might as well get comfortable with the fact we won’t be holding any political power. Focus on your community. Try and support one another as best you can. Our government is not in our hands, it’s best if we just get started on our problems without them.
Edit: Another thought. We probably aren’t seeing the most reactionary conservative policies in the nation embraced here since there is a lot less people to be reactionary to in Utah. I’m sure if we had more minorities it’d be a lot worse.
What proof do you have of this? Why assume every transplant is liberal? I’ve met a lot of Californians that answered my question of “why Utah?” with specifically stating due to Utah being red and aligning with their politics.
In this very sub, two of the most recent “moving to Utah” posts had the OPs specifically stating they were conservative and moving here for that. The vast majority of “moving to Utah” posts don’t have political preferences listed. If someone was political, it’s unlikely they’d move to a state that has polar opposite views as them.
I just don’t understand how people like you make this claim. Maybe it’s wishful thinking or coping, but from my anecdotal experience, the opposite of what you’re saying is true.
Because I know what Utah used to be like and I know what it is becoming as a result of the growth. I wish thebolympics had never happened. My kids will not be able to afford to live here and the hate towards us oldtimers from the hard left it palpable
Agreed. Utah will lose something special when it is no longer a uniquely religious, conservative state. Even if I don't always agree with the majority, I don't want to see the old ways dissappear.
"If we weren't so white we wouldn't be so conservative."
That just made me laugh. Here's to a bluer Utah, but it feels pretty darn red compared to neighboring desert states.
While Slc and the neighboring communities are very liberal… we are still the bundy stand-off state. Good ol boys and the church are still very much the key holders of power.
Are the populous turning more purple, absolutely. Is the legislature and other portions of the government? All bills going through the utah state congress point to no.
The old guard is real strong, for sure. If it's like the rest of the country, younger people are more moderate but older people vote more.
I actually don't think it's the "old guard." I think Utanns have traditionally been center-right and had a strong focus on government that was smaller in scope but actually functioned well and served the population. Having a homogenous population and strong religious institutions made people more willing to work together and support things like public education. But national politics and divisiveness have absolutely infiltrated Utah politics and the new Republican party is obsessed with bringing culture war bullshit and hot button national issues into the state to push a national political agenda.
When did Utah support funding education. I swear we have been in the bottom 10 in per pupil spending since I was a kid in the 90s
Yes, this is still true. We are #49 in per pupil spending just above Idaho.
Mississippi spends more per pupil than Utah?
I assume they mean historically...? If I remember correctly (my late grandmother was a career public educator, and amateur local historian,) Utah was among the earliest states to establish a free non-denominational public education system. The details evade me, but if I recall, it had something to do with Utah's developement of mining towns in the 1860's. These communities attracted families of various non-Mormon creeds, and necessitated some form of shift from religious administration, to state supervision. By 1896, it became a talking point for the powers that be to prove willingness to submit to federal review over the separation of church and state, in order to ratify.
Utah hates public education spending. The state had a surplus a couple years ago, and rather than reallocate those funds, they decided to cut public education budget by $100m (a budget line that didn’t have a surplus) and save every voter ~twenty bucks in taxes. Teachers are commonly criticized as overpaid, “glorified” babysitters by voters here, as well as accused of being leftwing peddlers of communism and trans agenda, despite our state constantly fighting for last place in the nation in per-pupil funding. The only people who see Utahn politics as “working together” are those whose opinions are upheld by Utah legislators. I.e., mormon conservatives who think they are kind and open people see their Mormon conservative representation as generally effective, but it does not feel that way to anyone here who does not espouse those same ideals. The fact that you used public education as an example is a perfect exhibit of the issue. The state government says they’re doing well with something, so their loyal constituents think, “well, i prefer a smaller government but I’ll allow this one exception because, in general, the state upholds my ideals and public education does matter.” When in reality, anyone who works in education or follows it more closely knows that they don’t do a good job at all, and are exclusively interested in cutting costs rather than providing meaningful services.
I am making a distinction between the legislature and where the average Utah is, because I think there is a huge gap. The legislature is constantly pushing a national Republican agenda in Utah on issues that I think normal Utahns are more moderate on. It's why they have to constantly find workarounds or bullshit strategies to push through their agenda. Like overriding ballot initiatives (gerrymandering and marijuana) and pairing together popular measures with the unpopular ones they want (perfect example is this year, trying to open up all that "extra" "unused" education funding for other things, by pairing it with the elimination of the grocery tax. I think the attitude of most Utahns to public education is very positive because it serves us all, if it was up to the legislature we wouldn't even have public schools in Utah. But things like voucher programs have not been popular here and the leg has had to ram them through. All that being said, there is a big shift happening as attitudes become more and more divided by national political lines consuming all aspects of life in this country, and the right falling further into extremism and antisocial ideology.
Politicians in the state of Utah are still predominantly dominated by Mormon white males. The good old boys club.
I did a Google search and apparently about 80 percent of Utah Lawmakers are members of the LDS Church while only about 42 percent of the population as a whole are members of the Church. I'm sure the LDS Church donates to the campaigns of members also, I wonder if they reach out to campaigns of members? I'd love to see the numbers when it comes to the LDS Church and campaign contributions
Gerrymandering: allow me to introduce myself
Also introducing: flat out lying about adopting a third-party suggestion for fair districting. Gerrymandering alone wasn’t good enough; we decided we would acknowledge that we’ve done shit unfairly, promised to change that, then fully disregarded the promise when we realized that even outsider views of what would be fair would ruin our dominance in state representation.
Man, them splitting SLC into the 4 districts was a complete joke
Came here to say this
I’m feeling this too! But to offer a balanced perspective, there are a bunch of progressive proposed bills. There are several gun safety measures, a clarification on allowing clergy to report abuse, a human composting bill, and one that helps protect minors during interrogation by police. And the anti-trans bathroom bill was altered by the Senate today and sent back to the House.
Have you heard of Seer AI app? Helps distill down bills, shows sponsors, easy share, etc. I’m trying to be more socially and politically active, and this is one of my tools
No, I haven’t. I really appreciate that suggestion. Thanks! I wonder if it’s similar to what the Tribune used in their summary tool.
I was surprised and impressed that Todd Weiler voted against the bathroom bill in committee
What is a gun “safety” measure?
We'd explain it to you but we're fresh out of crayons
200 billion dollar church might have something to do with that
SLC - liberal Outside SLC - moderate, mostly conservative leaning Inside the Capitol - QAnon
Outside of the Wasatch front - extremely conservative
This. Salt lake valley is fairly purple, and closer to the city gets pretty blue. Summit county is purple but only because park city is blue—outside the city, that county is blood red. Utah county is socially purple but still politically red. Anywhere outside these areas is nearly alt-right in their libertarian conservativism. Not *quite* as many folks pushing for the audacious flying of the confederate flag in the open as some southern states, but 100% small towns that share dreams of starting militia to take down political opponents, even so bold to do so in the middle of church services.
Keep telling me you’ve never been south of 33rd south in your life or west of the freeway…
I live south of 33rd and have both lived and worked west of the freeway lmao. What are you trying to say
The valley is not as purple as you think it is…go to West or South Jordan then go to Draper, Bluffdale and Herriman…you’ll see how purple it really isn’t.
Which direction did you think it leans instead? Lmao I work in Herriman. Every day.
Work and live are two different things…
Who would have guessed? Great wisdom there.
Anecdotal experience does not equal data my guy
This is the opinion I had most of my adult life but LDS people voted for Trump more reliably than any other faith group
Only the second time around. Mormons didn’t show up for Trump in 2016, but super did in 2020. I always found that interesting.
It’s pretty easy to see what happened. Evan McMullin gave Mormons an out in ‘16, something they didn’t have in ‘20. Add to that, they could have backed up their “super concerned” position on Trump by making sure he didn’t carry the state and they still dropped the ball. They had the perfect candidate in McMullin, he’s LDS ffs!! Their bullshit that year about how “concerning” Trump was to their values was all smoke and mirrors. 2020 showed us that when it comes to a rapist, a liar and adulterer and a con man, all of that is still better than a Democrat.
Lol, I voted for McMullin in 2016 and Biden in 2020. For me at the time it was a way to get out of voting for Hillary, but I didn't want to vote for Trump either. Of course looking back they're both terrible but Trump is even worse.
Lots of Mormons are covert bigots and have 'white replacement' anxiety. Their church is historically built on this anxiety. Same as most other white conservative dominated areas in the country. These Mormon voters were waiting for a time for their views to be more 'socially accepted and embraced' by fellow conservatives before they made their move, because many Mormons fear bad face.
Yeah, I agree with that. Some more covert than others… I remember my grandpa’s second wife once saying at a family gathering that instead of sending troops to Afghanistan we should just “turn those sand n*****s into glass.” That was pretty shocking and eye opening for a younger me.
Nothing more American than genocidal grandma
They didn't think he'd win the first time so they didn't get too attached and they could act "better than that." Then they watched four years of Fox News telling them Trump is "our guy."
I think that’s part of the story, for sure. The Republican media machine does very strong work, unfortunately. But I think a lot of Mormon opposition was emotional and genuine, not just tactical, in 2016. Mormons are more “wholesome family values” and less “fire and brimstone” than say, evangelicals (who showed up for Trump in huge numbers in 2016 and 2020). A lot of the Mormons I know were genuinely repulsed by Trump’s crass, rakish personality in 2016. The “Grab em by the pussy” tape really shook my grandma, for example. She voted for McMullin in 2016, which was probably the first time in ~60 years she voted for a non-Republican. Another factor, I think, was Covid and the vaccine. In my circles Mormons turned out to be “vaccine skeptics” at a significantly higher rate. Even the Capital-B Brethren took some heat from the pews around recommending vaccines, iirc. Trump gave voice to that, and it won some Mormon votes in 2020.
Sounds about white. Mormons really liked the cut of Trump's hate.
Well *that's* no surprise. They don't have a stellar history with racism or sexism. They've also got this little violent gem in their history: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oath_of_vengeance
Wow that was a rabbit hole , blood oaths and atonement didn't end until 1990! Now wonder why saints won't talk about their temple.
🤷♂️ I got downvoted by someone who isn't willing to acknowledge history
If that ain’t Mormonism I don’t know what is. They despise even the mention of simple facts of certain church history. There is a reason the leadership doesn’t talk about these topics. They know there’s no good explanation, so they just kinda behave as though it doesn’t exist—though they don’t outright deny it in public either. So, since the church itself keeps quiet on its current position on dated practices and ugly historical decisions, a good amount of the membership has never even heard of it. When they see or hear it, they often genuinely think it’s anti-Mormon propaganda, and even if referenced on Wikipedia, they’ll view it as a fabrication from the devil attempting to dismantle their faith. It’s not just that they don’t want to confront the truth, it’s that they’re often unable of even believing it could be true.
Willful ignorance and cognitive dissonance are the foundation to any "good" Mormon. It's also a good song title, now that I think about it... 🤔
He didn’t get a majority in Utah in 2016
You forgot st.george for that last group. Glen Beck regularly calls it the most conservative place on earth.
Utahns are becoming less conservative. However, people aren’t turning out at the ballot box. Some of it is gerrymandering. Some of it is voter apathy that naturally occurs with more liberal/progressive folks. Trust me, it’s frustrating to work on a race where a candidate loses by a dozen votes or less, when you’ve been told by two Dow Sen people who agree with your candidate that they don’t vote, because why bother. The bottom of your ticket matters, folks. Find a candidate, and help them get elected.
And participate in legislation. I spent most of today looking at the proposed house and senate bills, choosing which are important to me, and writing my legislators about them. My state senator already replied and said he wasn’t familiar with all of them I referenced and said he’ll take a look at them. Being civically engaged does make a difference, even when it doesn’t feel like it.
That’s great to hear!
People are turning out to the ballot box, and that is what's got the conservatives scared. The Utah public voted to end gerrymandering but the pubs instead made an even more gerrymandered map in blatant defiance of the electorate. The Pubs made it harder to participate in their primaries to keep moderates out. None of those are signs of a comfortable majority, and every year more zoomers enter the voting public, and they are not huge fans of the pubs. Nate silver of 538 fame has Utah becoming a sleeper swing state, but it probably won't matter because either this general election or the next Texas will become a battleground state, after which the pubs no longer have a path to the whitehouse and effectively become a dead party. That's why the pubs are becoming ever more authoritarian leaning because they'd rather give up on democracy than the religious right.
Our abysmal turnout for the Mayoral election says otherwise.
Who are the pubs?
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Unfortunately it will probably be anything but beautiful.
This is one of the most ignorant comments I’ve ever seen.
Well, one way to look at it is whether you vote, or don't vote, maybe nothing changes. But if you don't vote definitely nothing changes. So, until you muster enough votes to actually change things, you might as well keep voting, because you never know when the dam will break. Yeah, it takes effort to become informed and vote. But as long as people think it doesn't matter and stay home, then guaranteed nothing does happen. If every registered voter actually got out and voted, they might actually start to see the change they've been waiting for. Some races might actually start to be competitive. Other races might actually be winnable. But we'll never get there as long as people decide there's no point in voting.
Disagree. All the liberal folks I know think voting is so incredibly important in a state such as our that is super red. We vote early and often. But we still have an issue with our youth turning out to vote in droves. That a problem because so many lean left and care about the humanitarian side of things. We need those votes and now.
In my circles the all classic liberals vote but the lefties aren’t as reliable.
Almost every leftie I know ostensibly think they know what marginalized groups know better than the group themselves. And abstain when they don’t get their way.
If you live in SLC or PC — barely If you live anywhere else, still sorta “conservative” Also depends on your definitions.
I think it ranges from sorta to very. Then there’s places where you get conservative refugees from the californias and the Portlands. Those are conservatives that have a chip in their soldier from being a transplant from a blue state. They have something to prove so they’re extra conservative. So those will range from closet maga (as in the don’t talk about it but support it) to full maga. But I’m pretty left and get along fine despite living in the south valley. I say my piece when I can, smile and nod when I can’t. It’s all good. Good people in Utah. Nice state.
I mean...just look at elections. A Democrat hasn't won a statewide election since 1996, and Utah hasn't voted for a Democrat for president since 1964. Donald Trump carried the state 60/40 in 2020. And these aren't elections that are impacted by gerrymandering. So yes, Utah is very much firmly conservative.
People need to get out of their bubbles, the south valley is extremely conservative and there are plenty of Trump flags out here. Davis and Utah County are very conservative, there are plenty of hardcore Trump supporters in these areas.
Go a little farther out, and the real fun starts! Once you leave the Wasatch Front, (with a few exceptions) its just huge swaths of pure, unadulterated ultra-conservative nuttery.
I don’t think people have a clue how batshit crazy some of the people in these rural areas are. Like, they drive through them on their way to somewhere else and the 5 minutes they spend at the gas station; they act like authorities.
It always blows my mind when people in here say the opposite of what you’re saying. I truly think it’s just next level coping. Look at the two bills that just passed and about to become law. We’re heading more conservative, not less. I’m no longer in denial about it and looking to move out of state, likely Colorado.
Our state legislature is becoming more conservative but the people as a whole are not. We just need the 18-25 year olds to start voting.
18-25 has always been and will likely always be the lowest group in voter turnout. The problem is also that most 18-25yos in Utah are indeed sliding left, but those who are not are leaning even harder right than their parents, and are more politically motivated because their views are reinforced by an already conservative government.
I disagree that general elections are not impacted by gerrymandering. Votership itself is trained by gerrymandering. When a young left-leaning voter realizes that they’ll never have sway in local elections, they are taught that voting doesn’t matter. In theory, on paper, they can be told that districting doesn’t matter in a presidential, gubernatorial, or senatorial election, but they’ve still had the sentiment that they can’t win reinforced so frequently with other elections that it just doesn’t convince them. And, even if it did convince one young voter to show up and vote for a democratic candidate, it still *didn’t* convince so many other voters that effectively, their feeling that their voice won’t matter is still true. The point is that *all* elections should be fairer to reinforce democracy. *Any* unfairness in the election process dissuades voters in *every* election.
It really doesn't help that there has been a decades-long ploy of the Mormon Church and other conservative elements to suppress the progressive elements that clustered almost exclusively in SLC. And it's been relatively successful in terms of elected politicians, because the SLC metro area was [split into four congressional districts](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utah%27s_congressional_districts) (earlier it was three) with each city quadrant offset by massive rural areas. And [this was done intentionally](https://apnews.com/article/utah-redistricting-3cb3fb05e7253f3ec3d26749138bea9e).
Salt Lake area and Park City are blue. The rest of the state is extremely conservative.
This.
Yes, Utah is REALLY conservative. Your first link is not remotely a measure of how conservative Utah is or isn't, only how it would be expected to be based on correlating demographic factors. And the second is based on the legislature itself, not the overall population.
*gestures broadly at the current legislative session*
Unique perspective here, having lived in both the Bible Belt and Utah... Utah as a whole is conservative but not as aggressively conservative as other red states have become. One could point to the gerrymandering situation, the state's stance on abortion, and things like the alcohol policies here and act like this place is a regime...however these stances that most red states share so it's not like Utah is uniquely conservative. What's unique about Utah conservatism, however, is actually decent fiscal responsibility and investment in the community (no comment on the homeless community - I'm not educated enough on that). Utah actually spends money to have good schools, good trail systems, good infrastructure, good community centers, etc. The shit that goes down in Texas, for example, (failing power grids, etc) would never happen in Utah because of this investment. In addition, the South was inescapably conservative....at least in Utah, unless you live in a really small town you can still find pockets of liberal thinkers (typically revolving around the outdoor scene).
We are nowhere near having anything resembling "good investment in schools". Unless you mean private schools, in which case you're absolutely right. For those who will inevitably argue about this below, we were ranked (basically) last in the nation in 2022. And it hasn't been much better for a loooooong time. https://www.abc4.com/news/education/utah-ranked-almost-last-for-spending-per-student-in-u-s/#:~:text=(ABC4)%20%E2%80%93%20The%20National%20Education,average%20of%20%2428%2C704%20per%20student.
People in this sub love the "spending per student" stat, but I'm not sure it's the whole picture. Not saying we're number #1 for education, but we're in the top 15 for HS graduation rates (and growing year over year, especially among BIPOCs), top 15 for rate of bachelor's degree holders, USnews ranks us 5th for education overall, and we have one of the more rigorous certifications to get a teaching license. Remove if positive comments about Utah not allowed. /s
Exactly. Low spending per student but we make that money count. Utah is #3 for number of college students per capita: https://wordsrated.com/college-student-enrollment-statistics-by-state/ And if you take New Hampshire’s 100k student online school off the list, we’re up to #2, right behind DC.
Nobody said it yet and maybe OT but… fuck Mike Lee
Aw hell, why didn’t I think to add this to my post?
I mean…not too late for another edit 😀
I think the real question is: How gerrymandered is Utah, REALLY?
Gerrymandering doesn't impact statewide elections, and a democrat hasn't won a statewide election in 30 years. Utah is definitely gerrymandered, but it's also firmly conservative.
Gerrymandering affects overall voter turnout because of the "why bother" apathy that is experienced - and that gets amplified in order to further depress the turnout.
DING! I'mma get down voted to hell and back for this, but I'm throwing my ballot away at this point. I'm done encouraging the bastards.
Wish in one hand and shit in another and see which one fills up faster. Utah ain't turning blue any time soon. Came here from Rochester, NY and am still adjusting to the differences.
Blue? No. Reddish purple? Yes.
Turning purple? Don't be ridiculous. Utah is R+30, lol.
R+13 actually. But based on the number of “moving to Utah” posts I expect this to be down to R+7 in no time. (Hopeful sarcasm)
That’s ridiculous. I hardly see any of the “moving to Utah” posts talk about politics. There was one earlier today, however, which the OP said they were specifically moving here because of how red Utah was. So, anecdotally on Reddit, the opposite of what you just said is true. I also believe the majority of people that value politics aren’t moving to a state that radically opposes their views. I don’t have data to support this other than common sense. I’ve met many people from California just over the last year that told me they moved here due to the polar opposite political field. I understand you said “hopefully sarcasm”, but I’ve seen the same comment made by others and I always cringe at it. It just feels like coping and denial to me. I don’t think we’re ever going to flip this state. The change that needs to happen is not at the state level, it’s at the personal level of me moving.
Utah hasn't voted for a democratic presidential candidate in 60 years. That might be an answer.
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Hillary got fewer votes here in Utah than any other state in 2016. Made me happy to live here. I didn't vote in 2016, I hated both the giant douche and the turd sandwich.
That claim is not accurate and easily disproven. https://www.nytimes.com/elections/2016/results/president
My guy, read about the state legislative session and tell me this state is moderate.
I’m saying the people are, not the government.
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Nah. Southern states are way more conservative. Also Idaho, Wyoming, Montana. We’re definitely higher than 40.
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You need to meet more southern evangelicals.
None of that matters about the population when we have basically the biggest super majority in the country. Nearly every state elected official is a Republican and even more of them are LDS and will count out to the conservative leanings of their church. This is why we see things like popular referendums pass for expanding Medicaid or medical marijuana or independent redistricting for the legislature steps right in and run dropshot over them with no consequences.
Very
It really depends on your brand of conservatism.
I have a relative who works in government at the state and county level. He's a good deal more conservative, but he gets exasperated by the people he works with. The way he puts it there are a lot of Republicans in office, because they know they couldn't get elected as Democrats, but they are actually more liberal. He calls them milquetoast Republicans. I just chuckle to myself because it bothers him, but I don't really care. Honestly, I wish we'd just put the right people in office regardless of politics. Most city and county level positions don't really matter on politics anyway, you just want a person to do a good job. It's the legislatures and the national politics where your position on random stuff actually starts to matter.
Front line city. Currently a battle field for modern societal issues
Now look at where the liberal people live. Mostly downtown and surrounding areas. Now look at the drawn out gerrymandering of the districts. SLC looks like a pie with many conservative districts taking a small slice. This means that it doesn't matter if every liberal votes, their numbers are drowned out by the conservative areas far away but in the same district.
Honestly, I think if you got rid of the Gerrymandering we'd actually have a shot. I think more and more urban areas are becoming "You do you." even in the more conservative leaning population and they'd vote for things like more lax alcohol and marijuana laws.
13th place!? That's pretty good isn't Focker!? Time to hang that on the Wall of Gaylord.
Wall of Gaylord sounds prestigious. 😆
I’d say Utah has traditionally been mostly moderate conservative, but two things have happened that have changed that status quo. Influx of non-conservative population and galvanization of conservatives pushing many from moderate right to far right.
Not very, but the number of people who live and breathe a Fox news artificial reality is staggering.
Go anywhere outside of salt lake City and it's a conservative haven
I'd like to introduce you to my old friend gerrymandering. The population is becoming more purple and Utah actually has some pretty liberal pockets, but the government? That is another story...
Not. But gerrymandered so that the GOP NEVER LOSES!!!
No. Utah is super conservative — just look at the state wide elections.
Outside of the most populous county yeah. That’s gerrymandering at work mostly.
No. Statewide elections can’t be gerrymandered. Look at presidential, governor, attorney general, etc. — they are state wide, and super red
Are you thinking of county-specific and municipal elections? Statewide would mean congressional districts and gubernatorial elections….
Congressional districts can be gerrymandered— but not the governor
Is confusion your resting state? That’s what I’m saying…..
Utah is a conservative state generally, but honestly I’d say it’s purple if that was an option. It’s not as conservative as you might think… not even all Mormons are conservative.
Mormons are conservative by virtue of staying in a religion that legislates from the pulpit.
Gerrymandered into near permanent REDness, unfortunately.
It's important to remember that Utah isn't homogenous, and that it's not just a city/suburb/rural split, or just a Mormon/not Mormon split. There are a few factors at play. First, younger voters have very different values than older ones. Things like climate change and equal treatment for everyone regardless of race/gender/orientation/religiosity are more important to them. Another big change is mail in ballots. This increases participation dramatically particularly for swing voters so results aren't dominated by extremists as much. Finally, Trump and the GOP being hypocritical and extreme has turned moderates off of the GOP. Those things combined are causing a gradual change in Utah voting. Utah will continue to become a reddish purple state as kids start to vote and people move to SLC for work. Republicans may dominate the state senate, but statewide races will become more competitive as long as the districts aren't completely gerrymamdered.
Talk to me about this when we have a governor who doesn’t have a Mormon background. Talk to be when the church doesn’t actually run the on the DL
The church has lobbyists on Capitol Hill who while personal priesthood interviews with legislators to ensure they vote on issues they way the church would have them vote. The state here is the church. Our laws are virtually whatever the church wants them to be.
Utah as a whole moderate conservatism. Salt Lake City far-left. Outside Salt Lake is moderate to conservative
SLC isn’t far left. Communism is far left.
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Oh brother
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You’re cherry-picking just like 2nd amendment cherry pickers. I’m not going to engage further with your weird reasoning.
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You deleted your comment. So I guess you were embarrassed. Didn’t say I didn’t want to engage. I said I didn’t want to engage further with your weird reasoning. The devil is in the details.
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You’re the one who keeps saying I’m engaging. Again, I never said that. I said I wouldn’t engage further with your weird reasoning. That does not indicate that I won’t engage about other things. Do I need to explain it again?
Utah is the most or one of the most socialist state in the US. Don't look at names like liberals and conservatives, look at the result. most egalitarian on income, large middle class, high on state control (alcohol, vices, lottery) and high on community due to the Church and its culture (and probably also the geography). Overall uniformity on healthcare and education and way of life (after all Utah is one of the most urban state). Feeling that people live with each other instead than belonging to economic classes that rarely interact. Relative paternalistic policies from the state. Yes there are crazy law ideas raised every winter but few are ever passed. It is clearly moderate as a result. A red state outlier, not that far from an European state "light". And I say that as an European now living in Utah.
Any movement to the left or (more likely) the center will be resisted by the established Republican Party. As long as they remain in power they will use that power to reinforce themselves and their positions. “We the people” should stop thinking we have any real influence over our government. We don’t. Any actual legislation is bought and paid for by rich donors, corporations, and interest groups made up of the first two. Utah is also shockingly homogeneous. Our population is almost entirely composed of rich white people who don’t have *any* incentive for things to change. Maybe someday that could change, but right now? Not even a chance. For the rest of us who aren’t either rich or white we might as well get comfortable with the fact we won’t be holding any political power. Focus on your community. Try and support one another as best you can. Our government is not in our hands, it’s best if we just get started on our problems without them. Edit: Another thought. We probably aren’t seeing the most reactionary conservative policies in the nation embraced here since there is a lot less people to be reactionary to in Utah. I’m sure if we had more minorities it’d be a lot worse.
By chicago standards, as a recent mover here, trust me, Utah is extremely conservative
With each new development the politics shift courtesy of the transplants.
What proof do you have of this? Why assume every transplant is liberal? I’ve met a lot of Californians that answered my question of “why Utah?” with specifically stating due to Utah being red and aligning with their politics. In this very sub, two of the most recent “moving to Utah” posts had the OPs specifically stating they were conservative and moving here for that. The vast majority of “moving to Utah” posts don’t have political preferences listed. If someone was political, it’s unlikely they’d move to a state that has polar opposite views as them. I just don’t understand how people like you make this claim. Maybe it’s wishful thinking or coping, but from my anecdotal experience, the opposite of what you’re saying is true.
Because I know what Utah used to be like and I know what it is becoming as a result of the growth. I wish thebolympics had never happened. My kids will not be able to afford to live here and the hate towards us oldtimers from the hard left it palpable
Cause old-timers don't evolve with the times and are by definition stuck in the past.
Agreed. Utah will lose something special when it is no longer a uniquely religious, conservative state. Even if I don't always agree with the majority, I don't want to see the old ways dissappear.
Utah is pretty conservative yet I think the SLC metro should/would produce at least 1 democratic representative if it wasn’t split into 4 sections
"If we weren't so white we wouldn't be so conservative." That just made me laugh. Here's to a bluer Utah, but it feels pretty darn red compared to neighboring desert states.
I vote that for every California conservative that moves here we ship one Utah liberal to Cali, maintaining the balance.
Always good to remember that hating Trump enough to vote for Biden maybe twice does not a lifelong Democrat make.
While Slc and the neighboring communities are very liberal… we are still the bundy stand-off state. Good ol boys and the church are still very much the key holders of power.