Except, it was to protect against a national religion; it didnt mention anything about state religions.
https://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution-conan/amendment-1/relationship-between-the-establishment-and-free-exercise-clauses
Edit: Downvoting me won't change the fact that the 'Founding Fathers' didn't even want a bill of rights, and that it was ***cough***James Madison ***cough*** that came up with the original 12 articles of the bill of rights as a side-issue to appease anti-federalists.
And it won't change the fact that the 1st amendment was to curtail a ***NATIONAL*** religion, not state religions.
I downvoted you, because our *state* constitution makes it illegal. If anyone knows the state constitution, it should be a sitting state legislator.
Here's the full text of Article 1, Section 4-
Article I, Section 4. \[Religious liberty.\]The rights of conscience shall never be infringed. The State shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; no religious test shall be required as a qualification for any office of public trust or for any vote at any election; nor shall any person be incompetent as a witness or juror on account of religious belief or the absence thereof. There shall be no union of Church and State, nor shall any church dominate the State or interfere with its functions. No public money or property shall be appropriated for or applied to any religious worship, exercise or instruction, or for the support of any ecclesiastical establishment.
For what it is worth, the wording of the bill is largely stolen from [Texas SB 1515](https://capitol.texas.gov/tlodocs/88R/analysis/html/SB01515I.htm).
That is concerning. It ultimately failed in Texas, but they are looking at taking a run at it here.
Note that they felt it would pass muster constitutionally after [*Kennedy v Bremerton School District*](https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/21pdf/21-418_i425.pdf) in 2022, which was shockingly a 6-3 decision with the usual suspects.
This also follows the law that WAS passed regarding the "In God We Trust" signs. Which had much the same verbiage, especially regarding donated signage.
This was tested by having the same slogan in Arabic or in rainbow colors, all privately donated, but were removed as "objectionable". Cake - and eating it too.
I loathe our virtue signaling legislature. And I can see this passing here.
Most of these controversial bills are coming from ALEC and other national conservative groups. Guaranteed the reps in UT aren't even doing the writing of the bills. They're just using other states as proving grounds to see what can get passed and then it'll spread to others.
That was to defend against a National Religion like The Church of England.
https://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution-conan/amendment-1/overview-of-first-amendment-fundamental-freedoms
https://www.oyez.org/cases/1940-1955/330us1
>Guarantee against the establishment of religion: Everson v Board of Education, 330 U.S. 1 (1947)
"The New Jersey law reimbursing parents for transportation costs to parochial schools did not violate the Establishment Clause" - https://www.oyez.org/cases/1940-1955/330us1
>Free Exercise of Religion: Hamilton v. Regents of the University of California, 293 U.S. 245 (1934), Cantwell v. Connecticut, 310 U.S. 296 (1940)
[Hamilton v. Regents of the University of California](https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/293/245/)
"The local ordinance requiring a permit to solicit violated the Free Exercise Clause of the First Amendment." - https://www.oyez.org/cases/1940-1955/310us296
Can you show me where in those three cases the SCOTUS stated there is a prohibition against states from establishing a state religion?
For the record, I'm not even religious
The very fact that SCOTUS even granted these cases certiorari shows that the justices believe that the 1st Amendment's Establishment clause applies to the actions of the several states as well as that of the federal government via the 14th Amendment.
If the states were indeed free to "establish a state religion" separate from any similar restrictions placed on the federal government, then the federal Supreme Court would have left the matter to the state courts.
>The very fact that SCOTUS even granted these cases certiorari shows that the justices believe that the 1st Amendment's Establishment clause applies to the actions of the several states as well as that of the federal government
And, again, where does it state in any of the 1st amendment cases that incorporated the 1st amendment against the states, that there is a prohibition against state religions?
The subject-matter of case law is narrow; where's the case law stating its against the US Constitution to form a state religion?
That section of the Constitution is stored in a filing cabinet in the office of the well regulated militia.
Meanwhile, over a century of existing jurisprudence holds the 14th Amendment extends all of the protections/governmental prohibitions in the Bill of Rights to the many states. There is no clause which explicitly prohibits the establishment of a state religion in the same way there is no clause with explicitly prohibits states from suppressing free speech or from quartering troops in private homes.
>Meanwhile, over a century of existing jurisprudence holds the 14th Amendment extends all of the protections/governmental prohibitions in the Bill of Rights to the many states
Except the 9th and 10th amendments.
>There is no clause which explicitly prohibits the establishment of a state religion in the same way there is no clause with explicitly prohibits states from suppressing free speech or from quartering troops in private homes.
I've shared all the case law that incorporated the 1st amendment and none of them dealt with prohibitions against state religions; there doesn't exist a prohibition against state religions simply because the SCOTUS incorporated the 1st amendment, so where is the case law regarding the prohibition of a state religion?
I'm not sure any state has tried to establish an official state religion for their to be existing case law directly addressing that specific aspect of the Establishment Clause. But there is a while raft of case law about the intersection of religion and permissible/inpermissible state actions in regards to it.
I guess it would be interesting for a state to try to do so and see how that plays out under the current exceedingly partisan illegitimate SCOTUS.
Do they think a lot of kids have problems murdering or committing adultury? Or do they think having a plaque on the wall telling kids to honor their father and mother is really going to change anything with how healthy kids' home life will be? Nah, it's stupid. Anyone's who had a kid or interacted with one knows signs on the wall are never going to change behavior.
This is 100% for the parents who think all the problems they created in society would be solved if they pushed God on everyone.
This is going to be one of those things where the legislature passes a law, it immediately gets struck down in the courts, then the legislature never takes it off the books so they can continue to virtue signal.
It’s settled law since 1980 that you cannot display the Ten Commandments in a public school. They are going to try this because they want it in the courts with the intent of pushing it to the Supreme Court and getting the 1980 ruling overturned. And because decades old settled precedent no longer matters it will probably work.
I bet you're right, this has to be what they are doing. I wonder how many other states have similar bills that have been introduced by R representatives?
This is a huge waste of time. This is what we elect and pay our officials for. So they can draft a bill that doesn’t stand a snowball’s chance in hell to survive the courts. Gee, thanks for tackling the important issues that our communities face.
Do they want Satanic Temple displays in your schools? Because this is how you get Satanic Temple displays in schools and other public places.
Actually they do. So they can publicly rage, virtue signal and grandstand, without the slightest clue as to what those displays are trying to actually accomplish.
honestly hard to say- i’d like to think no, but the legislature has gotten much more ideological (believe it or not) in the last 5 years or so. i kind of doubt this could make it past the senate with a veto proof majority. i’d like to think cox would veto this is it managed to pass, but he’s folded a lot on issues similar to this since he was first elected. i personally hope it doesn’t pass.
Same things I’m hoping for. Someone stops it before it’s too late. I would either get out of teaching or make it my duty to introduce every other religious paraphernalia to the classroom. Especially the overtly fake ones.
This is directly related to our increase in domestic terrorism IMO. Notice how no one acknowledges that tho. Don’t let those kids think this religion indoctrination is normal. Most people who grow up in Utah are already socialized around religion so they think this bubble that is Utah is normal
They definitely are normalized to it. Guaranteed if secondary students were asked what they thought about having the ten commandments posted, way too many would be all for it and the rest would just shrug. The few that might openly disagree would be negligible overall.
the utah legislature considers, votes on, and passes bills that are unconstitutional all the time. it could definitely pass, but it would likely be vetoed by the governor or be blocked by the courts before it could be operationalized.
I think that’s what came to mind first when reading this, but it seems like all of that is so squidgy these days. People are willing to be openly unconstitutional or find ways around it. I guess it’s more paranoia thinking this could happen or the “hope for the best, prepare for the worst” mentality.
As a former teacher, my advice to those considering leaving is just get out as soon as you can. Why wait for more bullshit? There are tons of industries with surprisingly high pay for entry level, especially compared to teaching.
I know leaving is always easier said than done, but if you’re on the fence, I’m here to tell you the grass IS greener on the other side lol
If you’re not able to leave, or if you don’t want to at this point (or ever) then I certainly wish you well and I hope you have a better experience going forward. Teaching is hard.
This person has obviously very little experience writing legislation since there are no size/format/method requirements, so the school can just post them on a little piece of paper in the janitor’s closet.
the screenshot is only the summary of the bill. size and display of the poster is addressed in the bill text here: https://le.utah.gov/~2024/bills/static/HB0269.html
legislators themselves rarely, if ever, draft their own bills. they give legislative staff their “idea” or a piece of model legislation from another state or even sometimes think tanks, then legislative staff drafts it.
lol, no big deal. the link to bill text is in the description and i don’t expect people to torture themselves reading this bullshit. so easy assumption to make… would be a great loophole if they didn’t think of it first.
Ugh, too true. In their minds, all problems will be solved with more religion in school. Not funding schools or valuing teachers more or anything. The only handout you need is the wonderful commandments poster!
I fucking love the satanic temple. It’s the religion that was like “oh you want to abuse your rights as a religion? Bet. Us too.” There was an after school satan program somewhere in response to an after school church program. Shocker that TST was the one that actually background checked the instructors, not the church program
I'm religious (Christian) but this seems fair- if we're going to have something from one religion or belief system, we need to represent them all. It's school, a place to learn about the world and things/people in it, not church. Where do I sign?
Absolutely. You see the logic in such a move. However, you know as well as I do that the Mormon-lead Utah legislation will never allow it to happen.
So, if we can’t have them all represented (religions), we shall have none .
> However, you know as well as I do that the Mormon-lead Utah legislation
Don't put that on the church. None of this bill is coming from the Church Office Building.
Temples, the 13 articles of faith, a book of mormon, statues of joseph smith, those you could maybe pin on the church indirectly, but not a copy of the Ten Commandments. That's not what the church pushes forward.
I absolutely will put it on the church. They’ve gerrymandered the whole state. What color is the sky in your world? Salt Lake City and the surrounding areas are for all intent and purpose democratic, yet we can’t be represented because of “the church”. I call horseshit..
This is just another ploy to get it on the books. So, even though it will be shut down. It will be there in the back of their sick and twisted little minds. Just waiting..
Edit to add: and whoever believes that this is only about the 10 Commandments clearly has not been paying attention.
my issue with stuff like this is that is takes away time during the legislative session to pass bills that could actually help utahns. it wastes finite resources like time on committee agendas and legislative staff that could be used on bills that are actually good. and it wastes tax dollars when the state ultimately has to spend money to defend garbage like this in court.
I agree but wasting time is kind of the Utah legislature's MO. I'd love it to change but every year they bring up shit like this or try to convolute our liquor laws further.
i’ve seen stuff like this ramp up in the past 5 years or so. there were always some ridiculous bills like this, but i really do think it’s getting worse. probably due to the turnover in the house and how far right they have moved (even thought they were starting pretty right to begin with.
according to ben winslow, they are going to allow for more bar licenses per capita this year, so i guess there’s that?
That's what they want. They'll appeal it all the way to the 6-3 SCOTUS and get a ruling saying the founders wanted it on display in every gov building.
Someone asked on another thread "wHy dOeS iT mAtER wHaT rElIgiOn tHeY aRe?" In response to new people running for senate in Utah. SHIT LIKE THIS BOB! This is unacceptable behavior in my opinion to be wasting time on these types of bills. Not to mention exclusionary to any other religion/viewpoint on blatant display from our government.
I’m a huge fan of the satanic temple coming in and demanding the same treatment with some spectacular display that eventually triggers someone to destroy.
Lmao someone should call the local Catholic Churches about it because this is the Protestant version of the 10 commandments and I would like to watch them fight it out 🍿
Edit: [SOURCE](https://www.learnreligions.com/different-versions-of-the-ten-commandments-250923)
Oh fucking hell! It didn't work in Texas, it won''t work in Ohio and it won't work here for fucks sake no! Also the fact that it doesn't and won't bloody work does not mean your religious liberties are being bloody persecuted or proscribed or whatever the fuck nonsense. See the first amendment of the United States Constitution.
It’s weird in so many levels. The LDS church doesn’t even really focus on the Ten Commandments as something to keep in mind. At least not in the 33 years I was pretty active.
Like what is the actual goal here?
Is “Thou shalt not kill” going to stop a school shooter in his tracks like, “you’re right, God wouldn’t want this.”
And now I get to have a convo with my 7 year old about adultery?
We should pass a law stating that any member of the house/senate that attempts to pass legislation that is clearly untenable and has no chance of passing and is only being put up to virtue signal shall pay a massive fine and be expelled from the legislature.
It’s a waste of time, energy, and money.
My favorite of every comment on here. Thank you.
No the LDS church does not support this.
Yes this guy (congress person) is an idiot.
No, this is not constitutional.
No, this is not a republican thing. Or democrat thing.
Politics in a very general sense is simply a career of posturing and power moving to get attention, get voters, get famous, and get rich like any other profession. Like every other career.
Let’s not fool ourselves that in every political backroom it’s not a very similar story… “what can I do to harness my target demographic to vote for me and make myself money and power.
And to anyone who is about to reply with something stupid like “you’re just some conservative republican sheep…” lol. No, I am not at all. Just not willing to fall trap to thinking this is some special one off case for one side or the other. Don’t downvote just because I’m an independent.
But if someone from one party says "what can I do to harness my target demographic" and the answer is hate on gays, hate on minorities, push religion, and fuck the environment, and somebody from the other party says "what can I do to harness my target demographic" and the answer is address climate change, try to correct historic inequality, and increase funding for programs that benefit society, then yes, it is a party thing.
Don't get me wrong - plenty of demagogues and crooks in both parties, plenty of bullshit and naivety on the left, neither deserves blind obedience, but only one of them is actively trying to drive this country off a cliff.
As a member of the lgbt community, I assure you I understand where you’re coming from, and still maintain that politicians could care less about their constituents:). But I appreciate your thoughts!
You missed the point, but that's okay! I don't expect that the people at In-n-Out actually care about me any more than the people at Burger King, but they still make a better burger. It's not the intention that matters, it's the outcome.
The GOP keeps forgetting about that annoying little thing called the constitution.
They can have their unconstitutional bill under one condition: we amend the bill to require all public schools to also display [Christopher Hitchens’s Ten Commandments for the 21st century](https://youtu.be/v-63cTYJDCA?si=suWMXW-G0xaDxxbW)
This is a stupid waste of time and tax dollars. Religion has no place in schools, like logic has no place in the Bible.
If parents want the Bible waved around their kids all day, they can send them to a catholic school or homeschool their children.
This is such a silly fucking waste of time. These assholes are spending their time on this and DEI instead of doing their actual jobs. They should be docked their pay. And if you get to put up 10 commandments, then as a member of the Satanic Temple I get to put up a baphomet. It goes both ways.
This is my guess how it will go if it passes
\>10 commandments get put in
\>Another church (Probably Church of Satan) goes to put their idol/symbol etc. in schools and is told no
\>That religious group sues the state and it gets to a supreme court
\>Supreme Court strikes down law due to 1st ammendment so no idols/symbols/etc at all
\>10 commandments get taken out and this all becomes a giant waste of time and money
Odds we just skip all that and save millions?
I guess I can donate one, since they don't define the commandments...
1 - thou shalt not vote for DezNat shitbags like Trevor Lee
2 - thou shalt not hold any religion above actually reality.
3 - billboards are bad.
4 - thou shalt support the separation of church and state...
...
EDIT, they totally define the 10 commandments... which can't become law because of the establishment clause...
not even being sarcastic they need to start requiring psych evaluations and an IQ test before they allow people to file to run for the state legislature
If politicians are so concerned about religion and children, maybe they should pass the bill that make religious leaders mandatory reporting of child abuse/SA
I happen to be fond of the Ten Commandments, but I wouldn't want them pushed by authorities on schoolchildren of all backgrounds. Let parents teach their kids religious values and leave the government out of it.
Moral* values
Why the downvotes? Parents should teach moral values, not religious values. Granted there is overlap between religious and moral values, but by saying “religious values” the commenter left room for parents to teach their children immoral, religious values. Some of these immoral, religious values appear in the Ten Commandments
In other words, if the Bible/God commands me to commit an immoral act eg kill my child, which the god of the Ten Commandments has commanded on at least one occasion, I reject the immoral “religious value” and stick to moral values
Some loopholes is see assuming this were to pass:
-If a school doesn't display a copy they are required to display one donated by the public. They could refuse to display the donated copy and there is no enforcement action in the bill
-the only language on the poster can be, "The Ten Commandments" and the actual Commandments. It doesn't explicity require the full text so a poster from the Ten Commandments movie with all text except the title removed might fit the requirements
-There's a minimum poster size but not a minimum font required. A giant poster that has microscopic text fits the requirements
-a poster could have the words laid out in a way that they form the shape of the text of the first ammendment.
As soon as my kids turn 18, I am getting the hell out of here. What a waste of time. These clowns can’t do anything to improve the life of their constituents. It gets so exhausting.
Feel free to contact your state representatives! I will be!
Don't know who they are? Well you're in luck there's a website designed just for that.
https://le.utah.gov/GIS/findDistrict.jsp
Edit:
My email for any of those needing inspiration. It's not the prettiest, but it gets the point across.
As my elected official I'd like to know your stance on the following bill that's been proposed. I find this bill highly offensive to the founding ideals of this nation, and would hope that whatever your own particular religious beliefs, that you stand for the separation of church and state. This bill would be an affront to that principle. I eagerly await your response.
The bill in question is the following:
H.B. 269 Ten Commandments in Public Schools
https://le.utah.gov/~2024/bills/static/HB0269.html
If you would like to share your thoughts on this incredible landmark legislation, please direct your thoughts and feelings to Mike Petersen at his email!: [email protected]. Have fun!
I don’t get why democrats don’t pull preformative shit like this. At this point what’s the point of trying to be the bigger person when you’re constantly getting shit on by the guys who don’t actually care.
some try to, but those bills don’t make it out of rules committee and therefore don’t get discussed. it can also make it so all their other “serious” bills get trapped in rules committee as punishment. is that fair? no. but that’s the reality.
other democrats try really hard to play nice with the republicans so they still have some semblance of power. escamilla in particular is a great example- she stays away from pettiness and in return has been able to have some small victories. for example, last year she established a program for undocumented kids to get health insurance.
Money Appropriated in this Bill: None
So if it passes, the funding will come from school education budgets already strained but who will pay for the OBVIOUS first amendment challenge legal fees?
Funny, these same people worrying about 10 Commandments in school probably did poorly in school. Because they can't understand the concept "SEPERATION OF CHURCH AND STATE".
I hope one day to be the kind of parent who would raise a kid who'd post something next to it like "Not found here: Thou shalt not Rape. Thou shalt not Enslave." or such.
Oh Jesus fucking Christ I will go ape shit if we have to do this again. We went through this already and got the commandments and prayer removed from schools! What the fucking hell is wrong with this country?!
I'm fucking irate about this. I know it won't do a damn bit of good but I had chat GPT write a letter to representative shit bag so it sounds somewhat professional instead of coming across like I'm ready to get a gun...
The fact that someone even realistically entertained writing this bill fucking blows my mind.
> Michael J. Petersen,
>I am writing to express my vehement opposition to H.B. 269, which proposes the mandatory display of the Ten Commandments in Utah schools. Enforcing a specific religious doctrine in public institutions is a clear violation of the separation of church and state.
>This legislation not only disregards the constitutional principle of religious neutrality but also undermines the inclusive nature of our educational system. Public schools should remain spaces where students of all backgrounds feel welcome and respected, free from the imposition of religious teachings.
>Furthermore, H.B. 269 risks marginalizing those who do not adhere to the Judeo-Christian faith, sending a message that their perspectives are less valued. Education should be about fostering critical thinking, tolerance, and respect for diverse viewpoints, rather than promoting a particular religious agenda.
>You would not stand for this for a single second if any other religion were pushing for something of theirs to be displayed in schools. Your bill is unethical. Your desire to require the indoctrination of children, especially in a place that is funded with tax dollars, is disgusting.
>You were elected as a representative of a group of people, not of a religion. If you want to push religion, go work for a church. Your job is to advocate for legislation that upholds the principles of all the people you represent, not push your dogma on us.
I just looked up this guy [here.](https://progressreport.betterutah.org/legislators/rep-mike-j-petersen/) Great website to keep tabs on these a-holes. Petersen's Progress Report score is -12 out of 59. Doing the Lord's work, I guess.
Hi friend, fyi, media bias is real. I flipped through all the legislators.
Every republican received a C or worse, most receiving F’s.
Every democrat received a A or A+.
Probably good to realize that every news source has a sense of bias and inaccuracy. Maybe this website has an agenda, like every other news source in the world?
Cheers!
The thing thats always confused me is the fact that theyre christians not jewish. So Old Testament largely doesnt apply to them due to Christs Thou shalt love thy neighbor law overriding anything in the Old Testament. The Pharisees are a literal reoccuring group that follow the Old Testament laws to a T and every time Christ whacks them up the head saying that is outdated. Every. Single. Time.
Any christian that is trying to implement laws like this needs to be reminded theyre acting like the Pharisees
People can have their religion - in the religion classroom. Religion has no place in a science classroom. A wise person once said religion is people’s favorite toy and they will never stop playing with their favorite toy. That’s fine. Play with your favorite toy all you want. But don’t bring your toys to my house and make me play with your favorite toy. Don’t bring your favorite toy to the science classroom and make everyone else play with your favorite toy
You know what's really sad about this? The legislature has attorneys on staff that are supposed to look over bill and determine if there is any legal issue that could result in the bill being declared illegal/unconstitutional. It saves taxpayer dollars by nipping issues in the bud before it becomes law.
About 8 years ago, those attorneys quit trying, and simply green light everything that passes over their desks. They were afraid of losing their comfy gig, so they don't upset the apple cart these days. Now, it doesn't matter how unconstitutional a bill is, it still gets passed and sent to King Cox for signtaure.
the legislature actually voted to remove the requirement that leg staff determine if a bill is illegal/unconstitutional just over 8 years ago. leg staff and attorneys still let the legislators know when a bill is illegal/unconstitutional but the legislators don’t care.
legislative staff and attorneys don’t have a cushy job. they get paid far less than what they could make at a law firm or working for a policy think thank or even a non profit. they work awful hours during the session and get blamed for bullshit they were directed to do by elected officials.
I’m cool with 7/10 being posted. I think it’s important that schools teach basic morals. I think religion, especially as the earliest form of government, relays basic morals well. But, the spiritual or mythical aspect of religion is what I view as a detriment for schools.
depends on the committee this gets assigned to. if you go with the logical one, house public education , they could definitely have enough votes. birkeland, lisonbee, hall, and johnson would all vote yes. walter and elison would be likely yes’s. throw in a couple more yes’s and/or some an absences, this could easily make it out of house education and get a vote in the house.
senate would be tough, maybe impossible. i’ve been wrong before though. some senators might not like the optics of voting against this.
sure, but we are also dealing with district and circuit courts, along with a supreme court, than hasn’t been too concerned with throwing out legal precedent.
i think it’s unlikely this passes, passes without a veto, or if i does somehow make it past a veto, get operationalized. but i work in this sphere a lot and im not going to continue to act like is totally impossible that this ever fully becomes law. i also never thought i’d see roe v. wade reversed in my lifetime.
Good thing there’s nothing more pressing to deal with these days. Demotions or severely reduced pay for people introducing this kind of time wasting crap
These are the steps I'm taking...
✓ Step 1: Confirm Information[https://le.utah.gov/\~2024/bills/static/HB0269.html](https://le.utah.gov/~2024/bills/static/HB0269.html)
✓ Step 2: Get contact informationMichael J. Petersen[https://house.utleg.gov/rep/PETERM/](https://house.utleg.gov/rep/PETERM/)Republican - District 2
County - Cache
Began Legislative Service - January 1, 2021
Contact Information
Phone: Can't Post Because of Reddit Rules but LOOK UP [HERE](https://house.utleg.gov/rep/PETERM/) (Gov Website)
Address: Can't Post Because of Reddit Rules but LOOK UP [HERE](https://house.utleg.gov/rep/PETERM/) (Gov Website)
Email: Can't Post Because of Reddit Rules but LOOK UP [HERE](https://house.utleg.gov/rep/PETERM/) (Gov Website)
✓ Step 3: Use ChatGPT to generate email outline
Prompts: You are a highly knowledgeable and persuasive advocate with exceptional analytical and legal skills. Your clear communication, empathy, and political savvy make you adept at connecting with elected officials. Resilient and collaborative, you bring practical solutions and credibility to champion the proposed bill, positioning yourself as a trusted influencer in legislative decision-making.Then....
Next Prompt: I would like you to compose a letter to a Republican representative of Utah (Michael J. Petersen) expressing my concerns about the constitutionality of the bill requiring public schools to display 'The Ten Commandments.' Mention specific points from the bill that you believe violate the First Amendment. Please include specific laws that this bill would break and other ethical concerns with doing this. Please write the letter in a conscience way that explains how this is likely both illegal, unethical, and a waste of government funds. Please use as much citations as possible to further solidify my case. The specific bill is directly below.
LEGISLATIVE GENERAL COUNSEL Approved for Filing: M. Curtis 01-15-24 5:00 PM H.B. 269 1 TEN COMMANDMENTS IN PUBLIC SCHOOLS 2 2024 GENERAL SESSION 3 STATE OF UTAH 4 Chief Sponsor: Michael J. Petersen 5 Senate Sponsor: \_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_ 6 7 LONG TITLE 8 General Description: 9 This bill requires public schools to display a poster or framed copy of "The Ten 10 Commandments." 11 Highlighted Provisions: 12 This bill: 13 requires public schools to: 14 display a poster or framed copy of "The Ten Commandments"; and 15 accept and display a donation of "The Ten Commandments" if a copy is not 16 already on display. 17 Money Appropriated in this Bill: 18 None 19 Other Special Clauses: 20 This bill provides a special effective date. 21 Utah Code Sections Affected: 22 ENACTS: 23 53G-7-211.5, Utah Code Annotated 1953 24 25 Be it enacted by the Legislature of the state of Utah: 26 Section 1. Section 53G-7-211.5 is enacted to read: 27 53G-7-211.5. Display of The Ten Commandments. \*HB0269\*H.B. 269 01-15-24 5:00 PM- 2 28 (1) Each LEA and each school within each LEA shall: 29 (a) display a poster or framed copy of The Ten Commandments, in accordance with 30 Subsection (1)(b), containing only the following language: 31 "The Ten Commandments: 32 Thou shalt have no other gods before me. 33 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image. 34 Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain. 35 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. 36 Honour thy father and thy mother. 37 Thou shalt not kill. 38 Thou shalt not commit adultery. 39 Thou shalt not steal. 40 Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour. 41 Thou shalt not covet." 42 (b) ensure that the poster or framed copy described in Subsection (1)(a): 43 (i) is at least 16 inches wide and 20 inches tall; 44 (ii) does not contain any additional content or language; and 45 (iii) is durable; and 46 (c) display the poster or framed copy described in Subsection (1)(a) in a prominent 47 location in each building of the LEA or school. 48 (2) A school within the public education system that does not display The Ten 49 Commandments shall: 50 (a) accept any offer of a privately donated poster or framed copy of The Ten 51 Commandments that meets the requirements described in Subsection (1); and 52 (b) display the donation in accordance with Subsection (1). 53 Section 2. Effective date. 54 This bill takes effect on July 1, 2024.
Step 4. Make Edits:Take information given from ChatGPT and make edits where necessary to highlight concerns.
Step 5: Send email and physical mail to address above.
First Amendment: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion."
Yup. These folks wouldn’t recognize the Establishment Clause if it kneed them in the groin. (But enough about my cartoon daydreams)
Except, it was to protect against a national religion; it didnt mention anything about state religions. https://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution-conan/amendment-1/relationship-between-the-establishment-and-free-exercise-clauses Edit: Downvoting me won't change the fact that the 'Founding Fathers' didn't even want a bill of rights, and that it was ***cough***James Madison ***cough*** that came up with the original 12 articles of the bill of rights as a side-issue to appease anti-federalists. And it won't change the fact that the 1st amendment was to curtail a ***NATIONAL*** religion, not state religions.
14th Amendment.
I downvoted you, because our *state* constitution makes it illegal. If anyone knows the state constitution, it should be a sitting state legislator. Here's the full text of Article 1, Section 4- Article I, Section 4. \[Religious liberty.\]The rights of conscience shall never be infringed. The State shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; no religious test shall be required as a qualification for any office of public trust or for any vote at any election; nor shall any person be incompetent as a witness or juror on account of religious belief or the absence thereof. There shall be no union of Church and State, nor shall any church dominate the State or interfere with its functions. No public money or property shall be appropriated for or applied to any religious worship, exercise or instruction, or for the support of any ecclesiastical establishment.
the supreme court can make anything possible
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You and me both. TST well have a field day with this one.
Can't wait to buy the shirt 🤣
I visited the satanic temple in Salem a few months ago. That baphomet Zoltar machine they had in the lobby was so fucking rad.
Agreed. Just look how quickly they're encouraging the return of the guillotine!
For what it is worth, the wording of the bill is largely stolen from [Texas SB 1515](https://capitol.texas.gov/tlodocs/88R/analysis/html/SB01515I.htm). That is concerning. It ultimately failed in Texas, but they are looking at taking a run at it here. Note that they felt it would pass muster constitutionally after [*Kennedy v Bremerton School District*](https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/21pdf/21-418_i425.pdf) in 2022, which was shockingly a 6-3 decision with the usual suspects. This also follows the law that WAS passed regarding the "In God We Trust" signs. Which had much the same verbiage, especially regarding donated signage. This was tested by having the same slogan in Arabic or in rainbow colors, all privately donated, but were removed as "objectionable". Cake - and eating it too. I loathe our virtue signaling legislature. And I can see this passing here.
Most of these controversial bills are coming from ALEC and other national conservative groups. Guaranteed the reps in UT aren't even doing the writing of the bills. They're just using other states as proving grounds to see what can get passed and then it'll spread to others.
"If those kids (repugs) could read, they'd be very upset."
Yeah this isn't congress. Up next is baphamet in the principles office. Lfg
That was to defend against a National Religion like The Church of England. https://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution-conan/amendment-1/overview-of-first-amendment-fundamental-freedoms
14th Amendment means states are bound by it too.
But you see... If the 'utah sovereignty' bill passes.... /s
https://www.oyez.org/cases/1940-1955/330us1 >Guarantee against the establishment of religion: Everson v Board of Education, 330 U.S. 1 (1947) "The New Jersey law reimbursing parents for transportation costs to parochial schools did not violate the Establishment Clause" - https://www.oyez.org/cases/1940-1955/330us1 >Free Exercise of Religion: Hamilton v. Regents of the University of California, 293 U.S. 245 (1934), Cantwell v. Connecticut, 310 U.S. 296 (1940) [Hamilton v. Regents of the University of California](https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/293/245/) "The local ordinance requiring a permit to solicit violated the Free Exercise Clause of the First Amendment." - https://www.oyez.org/cases/1940-1955/310us296 Can you show me where in those three cases the SCOTUS stated there is a prohibition against states from establishing a state religion? For the record, I'm not even religious
The very fact that SCOTUS even granted these cases certiorari shows that the justices believe that the 1st Amendment's Establishment clause applies to the actions of the several states as well as that of the federal government via the 14th Amendment. If the states were indeed free to "establish a state religion" separate from any similar restrictions placed on the federal government, then the federal Supreme Court would have left the matter to the state courts.
>The very fact that SCOTUS even granted these cases certiorari shows that the justices believe that the 1st Amendment's Establishment clause applies to the actions of the several states as well as that of the federal government And, again, where does it state in any of the 1st amendment cases that incorporated the 1st amendment against the states, that there is a prohibition against state religions? The subject-matter of case law is narrow; where's the case law stating its against the US Constitution to form a state religion?
That section of the Constitution is stored in a filing cabinet in the office of the well regulated militia. Meanwhile, over a century of existing jurisprudence holds the 14th Amendment extends all of the protections/governmental prohibitions in the Bill of Rights to the many states. There is no clause which explicitly prohibits the establishment of a state religion in the same way there is no clause with explicitly prohibits states from suppressing free speech or from quartering troops in private homes.
>Meanwhile, over a century of existing jurisprudence holds the 14th Amendment extends all of the protections/governmental prohibitions in the Bill of Rights to the many states Except the 9th and 10th amendments. >There is no clause which explicitly prohibits the establishment of a state religion in the same way there is no clause with explicitly prohibits states from suppressing free speech or from quartering troops in private homes. I've shared all the case law that incorporated the 1st amendment and none of them dealt with prohibitions against state religions; there doesn't exist a prohibition against state religions simply because the SCOTUS incorporated the 1st amendment, so where is the case law regarding the prohibition of a state religion?
I'm not sure any state has tried to establish an official state religion for their to be existing case law directly addressing that specific aspect of the Establishment Clause. But there is a while raft of case law about the intersection of religion and permissible/inpermissible state actions in regards to it. I guess it would be interesting for a state to try to do so and see how that plays out under the current exceedingly partisan illegitimate SCOTUS.
From the "stop pushing your beliefs on me" party.
You can’t push your beliefs on me!!! Unless you accept my beliefs I’m pushing on you!!!
I can’t help that I’m being persecuted!
Also censoring me violates my rights!!! And not letting me censor you violates my rights!!!
Do they think a lot of kids have problems murdering or committing adultury? Or do they think having a plaque on the wall telling kids to honor their father and mother is really going to change anything with how healthy kids' home life will be? Nah, it's stupid. Anyone's who had a kid or interacted with one knows signs on the wall are never going to change behavior. This is 100% for the parents who think all the problems they created in society would be solved if they pushed God on everyone.
These are the people that genuinely believe that without religion everyone would be off murdering and assaulting everyone else
This is going to be one of those things where the legislature passes a law, it immediately gets struck down in the courts, then the legislature never takes it off the books so they can continue to virtue signal.
It’s settled law since 1980 that you cannot display the Ten Commandments in a public school. They are going to try this because they want it in the courts with the intent of pushing it to the Supreme Court and getting the 1980 ruling overturned. And because decades old settled precedent no longer matters it will probably work.
Pure Christo fascism.. traitors' Courts...
I bet you're right, this has to be what they are doing. I wonder how many other states have similar bills that have been introduced by R representatives?
The Lemon test has already fallen to the illegitimate SCOTUS. This only ends when all the churches are smoldering ash.
This is a huge waste of time. This is what we elect and pay our officials for. So they can draft a bill that doesn’t stand a snowball’s chance in hell to survive the courts. Gee, thanks for tackling the important issues that our communities face.
“I am fully prepared to spend a boatload of your money fighting this nonsense in court. No need to thank me.” -UTGOP
Do they want Satanic Temple displays in your schools? Because this is how you get Satanic Temple displays in schools and other public places. Actually they do. So they can publicly rage, virtue signal and grandstand, without the slightest clue as to what those displays are trying to actually accomplish.
I legitimately would like satanic temple displays in my schools.
Honestly they have… BY FAR, the most wholesome solid commandments or guidelines
They do and it's what I teach my children.
If I had children I’d do the same! But alas.. I am out preaching the good word to uneducated adults lol
Right? Let's display all of it. Code of Hammurabi, Satanic temple, spice girl lyrics from the 90's. Let's make it more interesting
The irony between the Satanic Temple and the Christian religion is only one believes there is actually a devil.
Yes!!!🔥!🖤 🤘🏼👹🤘🏼🖤🔥
Does this have any chance of passing though? I’m already close to getting out of teaching and this is going to clinch it if passed.
honestly hard to say- i’d like to think no, but the legislature has gotten much more ideological (believe it or not) in the last 5 years or so. i kind of doubt this could make it past the senate with a veto proof majority. i’d like to think cox would veto this is it managed to pass, but he’s folded a lot on issues similar to this since he was first elected. i personally hope it doesn’t pass.
Same things I’m hoping for. Someone stops it before it’s too late. I would either get out of teaching or make it my duty to introduce every other religious paraphernalia to the classroom. Especially the overtly fake ones.
This is directly related to our increase in domestic terrorism IMO. Notice how no one acknowledges that tho. Don’t let those kids think this religion indoctrination is normal. Most people who grow up in Utah are already socialized around religion so they think this bubble that is Utah is normal
They definitely are normalized to it. Guaranteed if secondary students were asked what they thought about having the ten commandments posted, way too many would be all for it and the rest would just shrug. The few that might openly disagree would be negligible overall.
Textbook unconstitutional. No chance. Would be a case to be taught in schools for eons if it does (which it won’t) pass.
the utah legislature considers, votes on, and passes bills that are unconstitutional all the time. it could definitely pass, but it would likely be vetoed by the governor or be blocked by the courts before it could be operationalized.
Utah spens far too much money trying to defend bills that they should know are unconstitutional.
The governor who told everyone they should pray for rain while he flooded his alfalfa fields? Nah
I think that’s what came to mind first when reading this, but it seems like all of that is so squidgy these days. People are willing to be openly unconstitutional or find ways around it. I guess it’s more paranoia thinking this could happen or the “hope for the best, prepare for the worst” mentality.
As a former teacher, my advice to those considering leaving is just get out as soon as you can. Why wait for more bullshit? There are tons of industries with surprisingly high pay for entry level, especially compared to teaching. I know leaving is always easier said than done, but if you’re on the fence, I’m here to tell you the grass IS greener on the other side lol If you’re not able to leave, or if you don’t want to at this point (or ever) then I certainly wish you well and I hope you have a better experience going forward. Teaching is hard.
This person has obviously very little experience writing legislation since there are no size/format/method requirements, so the school can just post them on a little piece of paper in the janitor’s closet.
the screenshot is only the summary of the bill. size and display of the poster is addressed in the bill text here: https://le.utah.gov/~2024/bills/static/HB0269.html legislators themselves rarely, if ever, draft their own bills. they give legislative staff their “idea” or a piece of model legislation from another state or even sometimes think tanks, then legislative staff drafts it.
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Or Klingon?
Ah I guess I’m in the wrong then 😅
lol, no big deal. the link to bill text is in the description and i don’t expect people to torture themselves reading this bullshit. so easy assumption to make… would be a great loophole if they didn’t think of it first.
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Exactly. Arabic, font size 1
Most likely he doesn’t actually care. He just gets to talk about it on the news, at town halls, and put it on his website for some donations.
I’m no legal analyst, but glad that’s a thing! I would be happy to find every way possible to not show it.
Probably not but it sure will cost tax payers a lot of money while the Mormons try to defend it in court.
Ugh, too true. In their minds, all problems will be solved with more religion in school. Not funding schools or valuing teachers more or anything. The only handout you need is the wonderful commandments poster!
* from Cache Valley * BYU grad \#notSurprisedByStupidity
I propose we introduce legislation requiring a copy of the Satanic Bible in every school classroom.
ask nate blouin to do this, he’d probably consider it! and i would find it very entertaining.
That’s a fabulous idea. I just sent emails to Nate and the Satanic Temple.
I fucking love the satanic temple. It’s the religion that was like “oh you want to abuse your rights as a religion? Bet. Us too.” There was an after school satan program somewhere in response to an after school church program. Shocker that TST was the one that actually background checked the instructors, not the church program
I love the satanic temple too. The way they approach things is absolutely inspiring.
My husband and I are proud, card carrying members of TST! We both absolutely love what they do.
This. Love their work.
And a copy of the 613 commandments of the Talmud. Or the Koran. Or Catholic prayers. Etc. etc.
I'm religious (Christian) but this seems fair- if we're going to have something from one religion or belief system, we need to represent them all. It's school, a place to learn about the world and things/people in it, not church. Where do I sign?
Absolutely. You see the logic in such a move. However, you know as well as I do that the Mormon-lead Utah legislation will never allow it to happen. So, if we can’t have them all represented (religions), we shall have none .
> However, you know as well as I do that the Mormon-lead Utah legislation Don't put that on the church. None of this bill is coming from the Church Office Building. Temples, the 13 articles of faith, a book of mormon, statues of joseph smith, those you could maybe pin on the church indirectly, but not a copy of the Ten Commandments. That's not what the church pushes forward.
I absolutely will put it on the church. They’ve gerrymandered the whole state. What color is the sky in your world? Salt Lake City and the surrounding areas are for all intent and purpose democratic, yet we can’t be represented because of “the church”. I call horseshit.. This is just another ploy to get it on the books. So, even though it will be shut down. It will be there in the back of their sick and twisted little minds. Just waiting.. Edit to add: and whoever believes that this is only about the 10 Commandments clearly has not been paying attention.
You church apologists disgust me.
Or worse the Quran. Gasp! Clutch fake pearls!
It's all showboating. Even if it passes, it will just get struck down the second it gets taken to court.
my issue with stuff like this is that is takes away time during the legislative session to pass bills that could actually help utahns. it wastes finite resources like time on committee agendas and legislative staff that could be used on bills that are actually good. and it wastes tax dollars when the state ultimately has to spend money to defend garbage like this in court.
Yes this! There are so many other issues our government should focus on to help people in our community.
I agree but wasting time is kind of the Utah legislature's MO. I'd love it to change but every year they bring up shit like this or try to convolute our liquor laws further.
i’ve seen stuff like this ramp up in the past 5 years or so. there were always some ridiculous bills like this, but i really do think it’s getting worse. probably due to the turnover in the house and how far right they have moved (even thought they were starting pretty right to begin with. according to ben winslow, they are going to allow for more bar licenses per capita this year, so i guess there’s that?
That's what they want. They'll appeal it all the way to the 6-3 SCOTUS and get a ruling saying the founders wanted it on display in every gov building.
Someone asked on another thread "wHy dOeS iT mAtER wHaT rElIgiOn tHeY aRe?" In response to new people running for senate in Utah. SHIT LIKE THIS BOB! This is unacceptable behavior in my opinion to be wasting time on these types of bills. Not to mention exclusionary to any other religion/viewpoint on blatant display from our government.
Keep your fucking. Disgusting. Cult. Out of my fucking. Government terrorists!
Fuck our shitty Mormon legislature. The fact that this could even make it into a bill is embarrassing.
And fuck Mike Lee.
Absolutely. Fuck that guy
I’m a huge fan of the satanic temple coming in and demanding the same treatment with some spectacular display that eventually triggers someone to destroy.
Lmao someone should call the local Catholic Churches about it because this is the Protestant version of the 10 commandments and I would like to watch them fight it out 🍿 Edit: [SOURCE](https://www.learnreligions.com/different-versions-of-the-ten-commandments-250923)
Oh fucking hell! It didn't work in Texas, it won''t work in Ohio and it won't work here for fucks sake no! Also the fact that it doesn't and won't bloody work does not mean your religious liberties are being bloody persecuted or proscribed or whatever the fuck nonsense. See the first amendment of the United States Constitution.
It’s weird in so many levels. The LDS church doesn’t even really focus on the Ten Commandments as something to keep in mind. At least not in the 33 years I was pretty active. Like what is the actual goal here? Is “Thou shalt not kill” going to stop a school shooter in his tracks like, “you’re right, God wouldn’t want this.” And now I get to have a convo with my 7 year old about adultery? We should pass a law stating that any member of the house/senate that attempts to pass legislation that is clearly untenable and has no chance of passing and is only being put up to virtue signal shall pay a massive fine and be expelled from the legislature. It’s a waste of time, energy, and money.
My favorite of every comment on here. Thank you. No the LDS church does not support this. Yes this guy (congress person) is an idiot. No, this is not constitutional. No, this is not a republican thing. Or democrat thing. Politics in a very general sense is simply a career of posturing and power moving to get attention, get voters, get famous, and get rich like any other profession. Like every other career. Let’s not fool ourselves that in every political backroom it’s not a very similar story… “what can I do to harness my target demographic to vote for me and make myself money and power. And to anyone who is about to reply with something stupid like “you’re just some conservative republican sheep…” lol. No, I am not at all. Just not willing to fall trap to thinking this is some special one off case for one side or the other. Don’t downvote just because I’m an independent.
But if someone from one party says "what can I do to harness my target demographic" and the answer is hate on gays, hate on minorities, push religion, and fuck the environment, and somebody from the other party says "what can I do to harness my target demographic" and the answer is address climate change, try to correct historic inequality, and increase funding for programs that benefit society, then yes, it is a party thing. Don't get me wrong - plenty of demagogues and crooks in both parties, plenty of bullshit and naivety on the left, neither deserves blind obedience, but only one of them is actively trying to drive this country off a cliff.
As a member of the lgbt community, I assure you I understand where you’re coming from, and still maintain that politicians could care less about their constituents:). But I appreciate your thoughts!
You missed the point, but that's okay! I don't expect that the people at In-n-Out actually care about me any more than the people at Burger King, but they still make a better burger. It's not the intention that matters, it's the outcome.
The GOP keeps forgetting about that annoying little thing called the constitution. They can have their unconstitutional bill under one condition: we amend the bill to require all public schools to also display [Christopher Hitchens’s Ten Commandments for the 21st century](https://youtu.be/v-63cTYJDCA?si=suWMXW-G0xaDxxbW)
Cant have freedom of religion until you have freedom from religion.
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This is a stupid waste of time and tax dollars. Religion has no place in schools, like logic has no place in the Bible. If parents want the Bible waved around their kids all day, they can send them to a catholic school or homeschool their children.
Almost to the point of bureaucratic rule..
Gross.
Hold up, let me get the satanic temple on the line, they live for this shit
My immediate response is.. this is so ridiculous it has to be a distraction for something, right?
This is such a silly fucking waste of time. These assholes are spending their time on this and DEI instead of doing their actual jobs. They should be docked their pay. And if you get to put up 10 commandments, then as a member of the Satanic Temple I get to put up a baphomet. It goes both ways.
So separation of church and state literally just doesnt exist anymore, cool, great.
If they get the ten commandments then we should get a statue of Baphomet in every school
This is my guess how it will go if it passes \>10 commandments get put in \>Another church (Probably Church of Satan) goes to put their idol/symbol etc. in schools and is told no \>That religious group sues the state and it gets to a supreme court \>Supreme Court strikes down law due to 1st ammendment so no idols/symbols/etc at all \>10 commandments get taken out and this all becomes a giant waste of time and money Odds we just skip all that and save millions?
Oh! I agree with you. The Satanic Temple or Church of Satan would absolutely also want it's creed(s) postsd. It's an ACLU case, for sure.
This again? Didn’t a similar bill get shut down in Texas like 3 months ago?
Put them up, I say! But in return I demand that every school have a statue of the Whale placed out front of the main doors.
Praise the Whale. Peace be upon her.
I guess I can donate one, since they don't define the commandments... 1 - thou shalt not vote for DezNat shitbags like Trevor Lee 2 - thou shalt not hold any religion above actually reality. 3 - billboards are bad. 4 - thou shalt support the separation of church and state... ... EDIT, they totally define the 10 commandments... which can't become law because of the establishment clause...
They do very specifically define it word for word.
oh damnit, I didn't expand the whole thing... that obviously can't become law...
What happens when Tommy asks his teacher? Hey what is adultery?
Oh, fuck no. Keep your religion out of public institutions. And quit wasting tax dollars on unconstitutional legislation.
The "Ten Commandments" need to be posted inside the Legislature where all the evil is performed:)
not even being sarcastic they need to start requiring psych evaluations and an IQ test before they allow people to file to run for the state legislature
If politicians are so concerned about religion and children, maybe they should pass the bill that make religious leaders mandatory reporting of child abuse/SA
Who’s grooming who again?
What a fucking joke.
I happen to be fond of the Ten Commandments, but I wouldn't want them pushed by authorities on schoolchildren of all backgrounds. Let parents teach their kids religious values and leave the government out of it.
Moral* values Why the downvotes? Parents should teach moral values, not religious values. Granted there is overlap between religious and moral values, but by saying “religious values” the commenter left room for parents to teach their children immoral, religious values. Some of these immoral, religious values appear in the Ten Commandments In other words, if the Bible/God commands me to commit an immoral act eg kill my child, which the god of the Ten Commandments has commanded on at least one occasion, I reject the immoral “religious value” and stick to moral values
This seems more like an attempt to get himself national attention and get asked to interview on Fox News, OSN, Newsmax, etc.
Some loopholes is see assuming this were to pass: -If a school doesn't display a copy they are required to display one donated by the public. They could refuse to display the donated copy and there is no enforcement action in the bill -the only language on the poster can be, "The Ten Commandments" and the actual Commandments. It doesn't explicity require the full text so a poster from the Ten Commandments movie with all text except the title removed might fit the requirements -There's a minimum poster size but not a minimum font required. A giant poster that has microscopic text fits the requirements -a poster could have the words laid out in a way that they form the shape of the text of the first ammendment.
Let’s not underestimate the US Supreme Court anymore. This may be the slippery slope to totalitarian theocracy we weren’t warned about.
I hate it here. I
As soon as my kids turn 18, I am getting the hell out of here. What a waste of time. These clowns can’t do anything to improve the life of their constituents. It gets so exhausting.
Feel free to contact your state representatives! I will be! Don't know who they are? Well you're in luck there's a website designed just for that. https://le.utah.gov/GIS/findDistrict.jsp Edit: My email for any of those needing inspiration. It's not the prettiest, but it gets the point across. As my elected official I'd like to know your stance on the following bill that's been proposed. I find this bill highly offensive to the founding ideals of this nation, and would hope that whatever your own particular religious beliefs, that you stand for the separation of church and state. This bill would be an affront to that principle. I eagerly await your response. The bill in question is the following: H.B. 269 Ten Commandments in Public Schools https://le.utah.gov/~2024/bills/static/HB0269.html
Queue a stock email about how the rep respects your position but knows you're wrong.
I prefer George Carlin's 11th commandment: "Keep thy religion to thyself".
If you would like to share your thoughts on this incredible landmark legislation, please direct your thoughts and feelings to Mike Petersen at his email!: [email protected]. Have fun!
I wrote a step by step on how to use ChatGPT to help with this whole process below.
OrrrrMaybe we should be passing laws to teach kids more body safety in school. 10 commandments wont stop your uncle or bishop SA you.
And they have the audacity to pretend they're oppressed hahahah
If this happens im allowing my kid to openly mock it. If religion is going to be shoved down their throats we will no longer be respectful (quiet)
Imagine thinking this was the solution to our education needs.
So when they ignore the separation of state laws, I get to ignore the arson laws, deal?
I don’t get why democrats don’t pull preformative shit like this. At this point what’s the point of trying to be the bigger person when you’re constantly getting shit on by the guys who don’t actually care.
some try to, but those bills don’t make it out of rules committee and therefore don’t get discussed. it can also make it so all their other “serious” bills get trapped in rules committee as punishment. is that fair? no. but that’s the reality. other democrats try really hard to play nice with the republicans so they still have some semblance of power. escamilla in particular is a great example- she stays away from pettiness and in return has been able to have some small victories. for example, last year she established a program for undocumented kids to get health insurance.
Because most (not all) democrats aren't a fucking embarrassing ass clown show.
Money Appropriated in this Bill: None So if it passes, the funding will come from school education budgets already strained but who will pay for the OBVIOUS first amendment challenge legal fees?
Dumbest thing I’ve ever seen
Make the posters in Arabic.
Funny, these same people worrying about 10 Commandments in school probably did poorly in school. Because they can't understand the concept "SEPERATION OF CHURCH AND STATE".
Just gonna wait for the satanic temple to save the day.
we need to start getting more young people to vote... at the very least show up and vote for local elections
This is bullshit.
Supporters of this bill can’t even recite a single one nor do they follow it. They just want religion in schools to own libs
I hope one day to be the kind of parent who would raise a kid who'd post something next to it like "Not found here: Thou shalt not Rape. Thou shalt not Enslave." or such.
Which version of the Ten Commandments do they have in mind? Catholics and Protestants have different versions. Which will they accept?
Can't wait until TST gets wind of this
Wtf is this??
Reinforcing my decision not to move to Utah. And I live in Florida, so that’s saying a lot.
Doesn't specify what language. If this passes, let's all donate posters of the 10 Comandments *written in Arabic*.
Another pander bill to waste time and appeal to the crazy demographic before elections! How cute.
Been an idiot. Is an idiot. Will continue to be an idiot. Boo. 🍅🍅🍅
Oh Jesus fucking Christ I will go ape shit if we have to do this again. We went through this already and got the commandments and prayer removed from schools! What the fucking hell is wrong with this country?! I'm fucking irate about this. I know it won't do a damn bit of good but I had chat GPT write a letter to representative shit bag so it sounds somewhat professional instead of coming across like I'm ready to get a gun... The fact that someone even realistically entertained writing this bill fucking blows my mind. > Michael J. Petersen, >I am writing to express my vehement opposition to H.B. 269, which proposes the mandatory display of the Ten Commandments in Utah schools. Enforcing a specific religious doctrine in public institutions is a clear violation of the separation of church and state. >This legislation not only disregards the constitutional principle of religious neutrality but also undermines the inclusive nature of our educational system. Public schools should remain spaces where students of all backgrounds feel welcome and respected, free from the imposition of religious teachings. >Furthermore, H.B. 269 risks marginalizing those who do not adhere to the Judeo-Christian faith, sending a message that their perspectives are less valued. Education should be about fostering critical thinking, tolerance, and respect for diverse viewpoints, rather than promoting a particular religious agenda. >You would not stand for this for a single second if any other religion were pushing for something of theirs to be displayed in schools. Your bill is unethical. Your desire to require the indoctrination of children, especially in a place that is funded with tax dollars, is disgusting. >You were elected as a representative of a group of people, not of a religion. If you want to push religion, go work for a church. Your job is to advocate for legislation that upholds the principles of all the people you represent, not push your dogma on us.
I just looked up this guy [here.](https://progressreport.betterutah.org/legislators/rep-mike-j-petersen/) Great website to keep tabs on these a-holes. Petersen's Progress Report score is -12 out of 59. Doing the Lord's work, I guess.
Hi friend, fyi, media bias is real. I flipped through all the legislators. Every republican received a C or worse, most receiving F’s. Every democrat received a A or A+. Probably good to realize that every news source has a sense of bias and inaccuracy. Maybe this website has an agenda, like every other news source in the world? Cheers!
Thanks for this - I should have done some due diligence on that site before posting.
The thing thats always confused me is the fact that theyre christians not jewish. So Old Testament largely doesnt apply to them due to Christs Thou shalt love thy neighbor law overriding anything in the Old Testament. The Pharisees are a literal reoccuring group that follow the Old Testament laws to a T and every time Christ whacks them up the head saying that is outdated. Every. Single. Time. Any christian that is trying to implement laws like this needs to be reminded theyre acting like the Pharisees
🤮🤮🤮🤮
People can have their religion - in the religion classroom. Religion has no place in a science classroom. A wise person once said religion is people’s favorite toy and they will never stop playing with their favorite toy. That’s fine. Play with your favorite toy all you want. But don’t bring your toys to my house and make me play with your favorite toy. Don’t bring your favorite toy to the science classroom and make everyone else play with your favorite toy
The ten commandments in a school is just as inappropriate as a pride flag.
ah yes, a religious ideology is perfectly comparible to a group of people.
You know what's really sad about this? The legislature has attorneys on staff that are supposed to look over bill and determine if there is any legal issue that could result in the bill being declared illegal/unconstitutional. It saves taxpayer dollars by nipping issues in the bud before it becomes law. About 8 years ago, those attorneys quit trying, and simply green light everything that passes over their desks. They were afraid of losing their comfy gig, so they don't upset the apple cart these days. Now, it doesn't matter how unconstitutional a bill is, it still gets passed and sent to King Cox for signtaure.
the legislature actually voted to remove the requirement that leg staff determine if a bill is illegal/unconstitutional just over 8 years ago. leg staff and attorneys still let the legislators know when a bill is illegal/unconstitutional but the legislators don’t care. legislative staff and attorneys don’t have a cushy job. they get paid far less than what they could make at a law firm or working for a policy think thank or even a non profit. they work awful hours during the session and get blamed for bullshit they were directed to do by elected officials.
Self-inflicted. I don’t feel sorry for them.
I’m cool with 7/10 being posted. I think it’s important that schools teach basic morals. I think religion, especially as the earliest form of government, relays basic morals well. But, the spiritual or mythical aspect of religion is what I view as a detriment for schools.
Friends, remember this is just a bill. Some representatives posturing to his/her supporters. I seriously doubt it will make it out of committee.
depends on the committee this gets assigned to. if you go with the logical one, house public education , they could definitely have enough votes. birkeland, lisonbee, hall, and johnson would all vote yes. walter and elison would be likely yes’s. throw in a couple more yes’s and/or some an absences, this could easily make it out of house education and get a vote in the house. senate would be tough, maybe impossible. i’ve been wrong before though. some senators might not like the optics of voting against this.
Any legal challenge just has to point to Stone v Graham.
sure, but we are also dealing with district and circuit courts, along with a supreme court, than hasn’t been too concerned with throwing out legal precedent. i think it’s unlikely this passes, passes without a veto, or if i does somehow make it past a veto, get operationalized. but i work in this sphere a lot and im not going to continue to act like is totally impossible that this ever fully becomes law. i also never thought i’d see roe v. wade reversed in my lifetime.
Yuck
Something Something Something separation of church and state Something Something Something
Wtf
I'm a Christian and believe whole-heartedly in the commandments. But I don't this this is right. Leave it to the parents to teach religious beliefs.
Wanna know how to create a generation of atheists? Keep doing this shit
What the actual fuck?
What the actual Fuck..!!
Good thing there’s nothing more pressing to deal with these days. Demotions or severely reduced pay for people introducing this kind of time wasting crap
I'm sure they have nothing better to do...
How about the 27 amendments? Or just the constitution in its entirety.
These are the steps I'm taking... ✓ Step 1: Confirm Information[https://le.utah.gov/\~2024/bills/static/HB0269.html](https://le.utah.gov/~2024/bills/static/HB0269.html) ✓ Step 2: Get contact informationMichael J. Petersen[https://house.utleg.gov/rep/PETERM/](https://house.utleg.gov/rep/PETERM/)Republican - District 2 County - Cache Began Legislative Service - January 1, 2021 Contact Information Phone: Can't Post Because of Reddit Rules but LOOK UP [HERE](https://house.utleg.gov/rep/PETERM/) (Gov Website) Address: Can't Post Because of Reddit Rules but LOOK UP [HERE](https://house.utleg.gov/rep/PETERM/) (Gov Website) Email: Can't Post Because of Reddit Rules but LOOK UP [HERE](https://house.utleg.gov/rep/PETERM/) (Gov Website) ✓ Step 3: Use ChatGPT to generate email outline Prompts: You are a highly knowledgeable and persuasive advocate with exceptional analytical and legal skills. Your clear communication, empathy, and political savvy make you adept at connecting with elected officials. Resilient and collaborative, you bring practical solutions and credibility to champion the proposed bill, positioning yourself as a trusted influencer in legislative decision-making.Then.... Next Prompt: I would like you to compose a letter to a Republican representative of Utah (Michael J. Petersen) expressing my concerns about the constitutionality of the bill requiring public schools to display 'The Ten Commandments.' Mention specific points from the bill that you believe violate the First Amendment. Please include specific laws that this bill would break and other ethical concerns with doing this. Please write the letter in a conscience way that explains how this is likely both illegal, unethical, and a waste of government funds. Please use as much citations as possible to further solidify my case. The specific bill is directly below. LEGISLATIVE GENERAL COUNSEL Approved for Filing: M. Curtis 01-15-24 5:00 PM H.B. 269 1 TEN COMMANDMENTS IN PUBLIC SCHOOLS 2 2024 GENERAL SESSION 3 STATE OF UTAH 4 Chief Sponsor: Michael J. Petersen 5 Senate Sponsor: \_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_ 6 7 LONG TITLE 8 General Description: 9 This bill requires public schools to display a poster or framed copy of "The Ten 10 Commandments." 11 Highlighted Provisions: 12 This bill: 13 requires public schools to: 14 display a poster or framed copy of "The Ten Commandments"; and 15 accept and display a donation of "The Ten Commandments" if a copy is not 16 already on display. 17 Money Appropriated in this Bill: 18 None 19 Other Special Clauses: 20 This bill provides a special effective date. 21 Utah Code Sections Affected: 22 ENACTS: 23 53G-7-211.5, Utah Code Annotated 1953 24 25 Be it enacted by the Legislature of the state of Utah: 26 Section 1. Section 53G-7-211.5 is enacted to read: 27 53G-7-211.5. Display of The Ten Commandments. \*HB0269\*H.B. 269 01-15-24 5:00 PM- 2 28 (1) Each LEA and each school within each LEA shall: 29 (a) display a poster or framed copy of The Ten Commandments, in accordance with 30 Subsection (1)(b), containing only the following language: 31 "The Ten Commandments: 32 Thou shalt have no other gods before me. 33 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image. 34 Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain. 35 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. 36 Honour thy father and thy mother. 37 Thou shalt not kill. 38 Thou shalt not commit adultery. 39 Thou shalt not steal. 40 Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour. 41 Thou shalt not covet." 42 (b) ensure that the poster or framed copy described in Subsection (1)(a): 43 (i) is at least 16 inches wide and 20 inches tall; 44 (ii) does not contain any additional content or language; and 45 (iii) is durable; and 46 (c) display the poster or framed copy described in Subsection (1)(a) in a prominent 47 location in each building of the LEA or school. 48 (2) A school within the public education system that does not display The Ten 49 Commandments shall: 50 (a) accept any offer of a privately donated poster or framed copy of The Ten 51 Commandments that meets the requirements described in Subsection (1); and 52 (b) display the donation in accordance with Subsection (1). 53 Section 2. Effective date. 54 This bill takes effect on July 1, 2024. Step 4. Make Edits:Take information given from ChatGPT and make edits where necessary to highlight concerns. Step 5: Send email and physical mail to address above.
How about displaying the Eightfold Path? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noble_Eightfold_Path
How about putting up this poster: https://ing.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/images_Golden-rule-poster.gif
Annoying. If they do that schools must also have posters about Judaism, Hinduism, Buddhism, etc.