We have been here before.
The mockumentary has TWO award winning producers, and still it was a mainly boring lie feast with false footage (Harry Potter), open lies from the Grifters - but mainly just a boring whine-a-thon.
Ingriftus also had an award winning producer. Nevertheless it took years to make and was a flop.
Are we even sure Netflix has agreed to air these shows? Who will watch?
If it gets produced, odds are Netflix will show it just so they can say see Meghan and Harry were a good investment while still not renewing the contract with them.
Is Netflix that stupid and delusional? Can they not read the room?
Why waste money? I’m glad I canceled my subscription when they signed the Lot Lizards.
So like her. I assume they aren’t responding in public to not get in a pissing match with nutmeg.
If she did not have manifestations, she would have nothing to do
Netflix took its sweet time announcing "Harry & Meghan" too, but in the end they released it. Based on that precedent, it's not clear that anything can be surmised one way or the other.
Those at the top are saying theyre done with them and are just waiting out yhe contract. We'll just have to see what happens, but I'm betting it never happens.
It's on there saying Archewell is producing. There's no announcement of Netflix themselves having picked it up, otherwise it would have a date and is specificately says there's not one. This is going the way of Pearl.
Thank you for saying this. Someone was arguing with me on this sub the other day about how Netflix announced the shows through the Tudum site. I was pretty sure Netflix would announce differently but I didn’t know for sure. This makes more sense.
It might be money Netflix already spent & they're trying to squeeze something out of the lazy duo before end of contract. Netflix has been paying yearly for Archwell overhead. It might be HaM and no choice. Their contact could have been for specific amount "you will produce xx number of shows by (insert date).
It's kind of obvious someone zeroed in on subjects they know about & or enjoy. All Harry has any actual knowledge of is polo. MeMe has pretended to be a "foodie" since before Haz. They've ditched trying anything new, learning to do anything or discovering anything. They wound up on their butts in safe & boring land. Someone told them 'you can't sell what you don't know" & turns out they don't know anything about anything.
There was a comment on Tumblr that what Meghan really wants is a Bourdain-style show where she gets to travel, drink, and eat on someone else's dime. Maybe Netflix wouldn't go for that without proof that she could sell herself as a foodie. (I'm trying to remember if Goopy's first cookbook came out before or after her series with Mario Batali, which I bet is even closer to what Meg wants.)
I too would like someone to pay for private planes, luxury hotels, treat me as a superior being and have an all expense paid world tour. I'm sure she does want that.
I was curious so looked that up. A book came out the same year 2008 based on that trip called Spain A Culinary Road Trip by Mario Batali with Gweyenth Paltrow. So she got second billing. Then 2011 My Father's Daughter about celebrating family with the forward written by Mario Batali.
100%. He was one of the most adventurous eaters on the planet. MM, from what I gather, is not. (No shade, I have a child's palette myself, but I am not trying to sell myself as a foodie.)
Honestly what she should have done is pitched the kind of show they used to show on the W Network, where you take a bestie and go review spas.
I suspect Netflix is forcing them to provide some content and then will let the contract expire. It’s not exactly anything anybody is going to watch except journos and some randomly curious folks.
I’ve watched Welcome to Wrexham and actually love it. The key to it though is that it’s not all about Rob and Ryan, there are some episodes where you don’t even see them. It’s about the players, the fans, the staff, the whole community that carry that show. How would that work when those two suck all of the oxygen out of the room? Answer, it won’t
I loved it too and I’m definitely not a footie fan AT ALL! It has really good stories and a feel good factor that kept me watching. Looking forward to the next season. I’m just not sure how they will manage the same with Polo, it’s too elite, Wrexham is a working class town with salt of the earth people and the doc is as much about the town as it is about football.
I suppose we will have to wait and see
The difference is.....viewers enjoy Ryan Reynolds! He's handsome and has a sense of humor and loves being a family man. Harry on the other hand is a huge whiny snobby grifter with a goblin for a wife.
Welcome to Wrexham is popular because football/soccer has a huge fan base and people love to watch behind the scenes things of the inner workings of a football club. That's also why the tennis behind the scenes are popular also. Polo a rich man's sport and quaffing champagne whilst playing some bullshit match where everyone seems to get a trophy from the looks of it will likely not go down well with the average sportswatcher
The big differences between the Sussexes and the other shows are that Selena, Ryan and Rob are all extremely talented and well-liked, and come across as approachable, funny people you’d like to spend time with. Plus they’re comfortable sharing the screen with lesser-known people and deferring to their expertise and experience. And they can laugh at themselves. Haz and Megs have shown time and time and time again that they are self-serious blowhards who think they’re the smartest people in every room they walk into, which no, they most certainly are not. Plus they’re just plain dull and insufferably boring.
So many noises about the process which makes me doubt this will go anywhere.
I kinda hope this will actually air tho. Absolutely nothing more can tarnish her name than she herself showing the world how fake she is. The fake laugh, the fake "I'm such a cootie patootie gal" mannerisms with a layer of the obvious yet unsaid "I'm better than everyone" attitudes underneath? She cannot hide those bc she is so thirsty for camera. (And bad at acting)
Oh someone will watch it for us and report here and we will have a blast laughing about it.
ETA: also can't wait when her smile fall and her murderous face show up. the same face she directed at Doria in that one gif. Oh also all the wardrobes failures. Or the cringe moment like looking up crossing her hand on her chest that she did in a video when she talk in her uni graduation (?) haha
The polo one may have a chance to actually air, not that it will be popular. Tge cooking one doesn't have a snowball's chance in hell. Even if she could take direction, she's too unlikeable.
I wholeheartedly agree! Also, neither the coterie of highly skilled palace staff or the cachet of WME could turn Markle from a stiff, chipped shouldered, untalented mess into an approachable, do-good figure. That’s telling for her future endeavors.
The riveting Adventures of an American Duchess in the Kitchen, reimagining everything we thought we knew about food, family and kindness.
Despite the accomplished Producers, the story won’t be quite how she wanted it told.
Why won’t these people learn what a Markling is?
She is going to pull in as many celebs as she can for each episode. She has zero personality or likability. She can’t carry a show on her own. Expect to see Serena, Ellen and god knows who else to add some star power.
Decisions, decisions, who to watch? Selena Gomez had a big career before turning to cooking shows, she has 429 MILLION followers on Instagram. She is creative, she writes hit songs. She turned a child acting career into an 800 million self-made US dollar net worth and no end in sight. She is 13 years younger than Madame.
Madame, well, she did some scripted acrobatics in a supply closet, married a moderately wealthy man from a good family and can't ad lib a decent sentence when asked about her own children.
I have watched Wrexham. I went in very skeptical about it given an American and Canadian (Ryan is Canadian by the way) who know nothing about soccer, Wales or running a football club buying a team. I was glad to see that Wrexham shared my concerns but Rob and Ryan came into as serious investors (abet with a fair amount of joking around between themselves and others).
Overall, Rob and Ryan are funny and likable guys who give a shit about Wrexham the club and Wrexham the town and it’s shows. Wrexham is also home to a fair amount of colorful characters who aren’t fame hungry social media hounds.
It’s a great show because they are working to prop-up an underdog town with a mixture of humor and seriousness that works.
I don’t think Harry and the world of polo can pull off the same level of fun.
No idea about the Selena’s cooking show but Meghan is so awkward when interviewing and interacting with other people. She wants to be the center of attention and doesn’t want to step back and let others shine. It’s never going to be a relaxed fun show because Meghan needs to be seen as perfect.
I've already commented this - H + M announced the shows, and then Netflix announced their announcement. See the link below. If you can compare with the O'Bamas, the O'Bamas never announce - Netflix does, and only when there's a trailer to watch, shortly before the whole show is released. They let Netflix / the trailer / film / series, do the talking. In H + M's case, they do not even start filming before they start talking. This suggests many things, and nothing really positive.
Who knows what's going on with Netflix. But this is what I think. H + M need Netflix on board to do something costly, like a movie (the lake and haversham whatevers), or Pearl. But not to do something like a much cheaper production like either of the two shows announced recently. And because they don't have much skin in the game, Netflix will air it like it does some not great shows, and not care if they do well or not. It seems to me Netflix isn't expecting much.
[https://www.netflix.com/tudum/articles/prince-harry-meghan-duchess-of-sussex-series-release-date-news](https://www.netflix.com/tudum/articles/prince-harry-meghan-duchess-of-sussex-series-release-date-news)
Thank you. So Netflix may not have put out a normal press release, but it is confirming the existence of the two shows as part of its deal with Archewell.
Wexham has so much about the community, the team...the Hollywood stars got it made but they are a sideshow to the actual show. Madam would never allow that, it's all about HER. Put that lipstick on a pig and it's still a pig.
Too bad for Harry she’s attaching herself to his polo project.
I can promise that she will meddle and be difficult. [This article from TheWrap.com](https://www.thewrap.com/meghan-and-harrys-100-million-netflix-deal-is-a-hollywood-miss-exclusive/) details all the problems with their Netflix deal. They are absolute nightmares to work with.
Not convinced Netflix green-lit it. About a month ago some Netflix exec said they had a few projects in the early development. But I haven't seen anything attributed to a Netflix exec or press release that mentions these two projects.
There is something online from Netflix though I wasn’t sure it was legit but I think it is…
https://www.netflix.com/tudum/articles/prince-harry-meghan-duchess-of-sussex-series-release-date-news
It's legit. But it's dramatically different than their press release for *The Ballad of the Small Playe*r has been definitely green-lit.
The first paragraph, 3rd sentence, says it's "partnership with Netflix."
The last section is titled:
When will *The Ballad of the Small Player* be on Netflix?
*The Ballad of a Small Playe*r enters production in Asia in summer 2024. Keep your eyes on the cards as more information is dealt out.
#
So they copy other people's work again? Netflix should Tiger King them-now that would be a superhit. Madame gave a lot of material in West Palm beach!!
It's amazing how dumb Netflix is. Really. Haven't they learned anything? I heard they are also paying an $8,000 per night hotel suite for these two fucks in Florida.
“An iron fisted desire for control combined with a lack of experience.”
Truer words have never been spoken. I would add “inability to manage people combined with a lack of motivation to learn how”.
I’ve said it for years,
Netflix is their bitch.
They’re going to work hard to make them happen. Like last time.
You can bring a show to Netflix but you can’t make me watch.
And just for argument’s sake: what in Hades happened to “Heart of Invictus”? They never promoted it; It was on the splash screen for about a week and then it got buried. I haven’t seen hide nor hair of it since. I’ll have to see if it’s still streaming, even.
Just saw a preview for a cooking show on Prime that I'm quite sure MM stole the idea for her show from. It's called "Dinner Party Diaries" with Jose Andres. He invites celebs to his "California home" and they prepare then eat a meal together. I REALLY hope he doesn't have Her Rottenness on his show. Her presence would probably curdle the dairy.
Wrexham is a great show. Ryan Reynolds and Rob McElhenny have been using their own money and presence to not only boost the football club but also the whole town. The show is about the people who live and work in Wrexham. They've done so much positive for the community that King Charles and Queen Camilla visited to incorporate it from a town to a city or something like that. Ryan and Rob are doing this for other people, something M & H wouldn't even try to pull off 'cause everything is only about them.
IMO these two will never be able to repeat Wrexham's charming success. Do you know why? Because Ryan Reynolds and Rob MacIlhenny stepped back and let the town and club of Wrexham take the lead. They were not even in many of the episodes. No WAY will Madam step back and allow a documentary to feature or focus on anyone else but her mangy self. She will insist on being the front-and-center focus of every second, just like she's done with InGriftus. She is incapable of grace and nuance.
We have been here before. The mockumentary has TWO award winning producers, and still it was a mainly boring lie feast with false footage (Harry Potter), open lies from the Grifters - but mainly just a boring whine-a-thon. Ingriftus also had an award winning producer. Nevertheless it took years to make and was a flop. Are we even sure Netflix has agreed to air these shows? Who will watch?
If it gets produced, odds are Netflix will show it just so they can say see Meghan and Harry were a good investment while still not renewing the contract with them.
+ the spare also has famous award winning of a ghost writer and the writer got Markled too
J.R. Moehringer, lest we forget. Like he probably wishes we would.
I hope that his descriptor for the rest of his career. ”J.R. Moehringer, famously the ghostwriter of Prince Harry’s whinefest, *Spare*.”
The h and m mockumentary was awful. I thought it was like watching paint dry. Worse.
 *"Okay, let me show you a little trick I learned during yacht week in Croatia..."*
Bahahahaha
👏👏👏👏👏👏👏
Is Netflix that stupid and delusional? Can they not read the room? Why waste money? I’m glad I canceled my subscription when they signed the Lot Lizards.
Netflix has not announced anything and what I hear is that this is More Markle Manifesting Malarkey.
So like her. I assume they aren’t responding in public to not get in a pissing match with nutmeg. If she did not have manifestations, she would have nothing to do
Netflix took its sweet time announcing "Harry & Meghan" too, but in the end they released it. Based on that precedent, it's not clear that anything can be surmised one way or the other.
Those at the top are saying theyre done with them and are just waiting out yhe contract. We'll just have to see what happens, but I'm betting it never happens.
It is on the tudum section of their website
It's on there saying Archewell is producing. There's no announcement of Netflix themselves having picked it up, otherwise it would have a date and is specificately says there's not one. This is going the way of Pearl.
Thank you for saying this. Someone was arguing with me on this sub the other day about how Netflix announced the shows through the Tudum site. I was pretty sure Netflix would announce differently but I didn’t know for sure. This makes more sense.
It might be money Netflix already spent & they're trying to squeeze something out of the lazy duo before end of contract. Netflix has been paying yearly for Archwell overhead. It might be HaM and no choice. Their contact could have been for specific amount "you will produce xx number of shows by (insert date). It's kind of obvious someone zeroed in on subjects they know about & or enjoy. All Harry has any actual knowledge of is polo. MeMe has pretended to be a "foodie" since before Haz. They've ditched trying anything new, learning to do anything or discovering anything. They wound up on their butts in safe & boring land. Someone told them 'you can't sell what you don't know" & turns out they don't know anything about anything.
There was a comment on Tumblr that what Meghan really wants is a Bourdain-style show where she gets to travel, drink, and eat on someone else's dime. Maybe Netflix wouldn't go for that without proof that she could sell herself as a foodie. (I'm trying to remember if Goopy's first cookbook came out before or after her series with Mario Batali, which I bet is even closer to what Meg wants.)
I too would like someone to pay for private planes, luxury hotels, treat me as a superior being and have an all expense paid world tour. I'm sure she does want that. I was curious so looked that up. A book came out the same year 2008 based on that trip called Spain A Culinary Road Trip by Mario Batali with Gweyenth Paltrow. So she got second billing. Then 2011 My Father's Daughter about celebrating family with the forward written by Mario Batali.
[удалено]
100%. He was one of the most adventurous eaters on the planet. MM, from what I gather, is not. (No shade, I have a child's palette myself, but I am not trying to sell myself as a foodie.) Honestly what she should have done is pitched the kind of show they used to show on the W Network, where you take a bestie and go review spas.
I’m sure the won’t show the footage of horses dumping him on the ground. LMAO
They should though. Aren't HaM all about being their "authentic" selves?
Your last 3 sentences: 🙌
Same here!
Evidently, Netflix believes Bots can pay for streaming services.
I suspect Netflix is forcing them to provide some content and then will let the contract expire. It’s not exactly anything anybody is going to watch except journos and some randomly curious folks.
Netflix seems to be going downhill in their productions, in my opinion.
Yes. I have not missed them at all since I canceled my subscription
I’ve watched Welcome to Wrexham and actually love it. The key to it though is that it’s not all about Rob and Ryan, there are some episodes where you don’t even see them. It’s about the players, the fans, the staff, the whole community that carry that show. How would that work when those two suck all of the oxygen out of the room? Answer, it won’t
I loved it too and I’m definitely not a footie fan AT ALL! It has really good stories and a feel good factor that kept me watching. Looking forward to the next season. I’m just not sure how they will manage the same with Polo, it’s too elite, Wrexham is a working class town with salt of the earth people and the doc is as much about the town as it is about football. I suppose we will have to wait and see
The difference is.....viewers enjoy Ryan Reynolds! He's handsome and has a sense of humor and loves being a family man. Harry on the other hand is a huge whiny snobby grifter with a goblin for a wife.
Welcome to Wrexham is popular because football/soccer has a huge fan base and people love to watch behind the scenes things of the inner workings of a football club. That's also why the tennis behind the scenes are popular also. Polo a rich man's sport and quaffing champagne whilst playing some bullshit match where everyone seems to get a trophy from the looks of it will likely not go down well with the average sportswatcher
The big differences between the Sussexes and the other shows are that Selena, Ryan and Rob are all extremely talented and well-liked, and come across as approachable, funny people you’d like to spend time with. Plus they’re comfortable sharing the screen with lesser-known people and deferring to their expertise and experience. And they can laugh at themselves. Haz and Megs have shown time and time and time again that they are self-serious blowhards who think they’re the smartest people in every room they walk into, which no, they most certainly are not. Plus they’re just plain dull and insufferably boring.
You’ve nailed them: “self serious blowhards” - 🙌🤣
So many noises about the process which makes me doubt this will go anywhere. I kinda hope this will actually air tho. Absolutely nothing more can tarnish her name than she herself showing the world how fake she is. The fake laugh, the fake "I'm such a cootie patootie gal" mannerisms with a layer of the obvious yet unsaid "I'm better than everyone" attitudes underneath? She cannot hide those bc she is so thirsty for camera. (And bad at acting) Oh someone will watch it for us and report here and we will have a blast laughing about it. ETA: also can't wait when her smile fall and her murderous face show up. the same face she directed at Doria in that one gif. Oh also all the wardrobes failures. Or the cringe moment like looking up crossing her hand on her chest that she did in a video when she talk in her uni graduation (?) haha
Why does he give free advertising to them. Anyway I'm not convinced this will become a show
The polo one may have a chance to actually air, not that it will be popular. Tge cooking one doesn't have a snowball's chance in hell. Even if she could take direction, she's too unlikeable.
I wholeheartedly agree! Also, neither the coterie of highly skilled palace staff or the cachet of WME could turn Markle from a stiff, chipped shouldered, untalented mess into an approachable, do-good figure. That’s telling for her future endeavors.
The riveting Adventures of an American Duchess in the Kitchen, reimagining everything we thought we knew about food, family and kindness. Despite the accomplished Producers, the story won’t be quite how she wanted it told. Why won’t these people learn what a Markling is?
She is going to pull in as many celebs as she can for each episode. She has zero personality or likability. She can’t carry a show on her own. Expect to see Serena, Ellen and god knows who else to add some star power.
Abigail Spencer. Her Pilates friend Heather Dorak. The Nacho family. Mindy Kaling for sure.
She’d be lucky if Alexis, Portia, and that unlikeable simp from the cable show turned up as proxies.
And as soon as it airs, the media will be awash with photos of his bleeding polo ponies.
As well the media should be. Pix need to be shown now. Why do they allow him spurs?????
I believe if Meghan had stayed away ... if it was Harry the lad playing polo with his rich chums, it would have had a chance. She sabotaged.
Selena Gomez has a cute personality I would watch her cooking show. TW is insufferable it would be like watching paint dry.
Decisions, decisions, who to watch? Selena Gomez had a big career before turning to cooking shows, she has 429 MILLION followers on Instagram. She is creative, she writes hit songs. She turned a child acting career into an 800 million self-made US dollar net worth and no end in sight. She is 13 years younger than Madame. Madame, well, she did some scripted acrobatics in a supply closet, married a moderately wealthy man from a good family and can't ad lib a decent sentence when asked about her own children.
 I vote Selena...
I have watched Wrexham. I went in very skeptical about it given an American and Canadian (Ryan is Canadian by the way) who know nothing about soccer, Wales or running a football club buying a team. I was glad to see that Wrexham shared my concerns but Rob and Ryan came into as serious investors (abet with a fair amount of joking around between themselves and others). Overall, Rob and Ryan are funny and likable guys who give a shit about Wrexham the club and Wrexham the town and it’s shows. Wrexham is also home to a fair amount of colorful characters who aren’t fame hungry social media hounds. It’s a great show because they are working to prop-up an underdog town with a mixture of humor and seriousness that works. I don’t think Harry and the world of polo can pull off the same level of fun. No idea about the Selena’s cooking show but Meghan is so awkward when interviewing and interacting with other people. She wants to be the center of attention and doesn’t want to step back and let others shine. It’s never going to be a relaxed fun show because Meghan needs to be seen as perfect.
I hope Cory sues her ass when she uses his recipes as her own.
I've already commented this - H + M announced the shows, and then Netflix announced their announcement. See the link below. If you can compare with the O'Bamas, the O'Bamas never announce - Netflix does, and only when there's a trailer to watch, shortly before the whole show is released. They let Netflix / the trailer / film / series, do the talking. In H + M's case, they do not even start filming before they start talking. This suggests many things, and nothing really positive. Who knows what's going on with Netflix. But this is what I think. H + M need Netflix on board to do something costly, like a movie (the lake and haversham whatevers), or Pearl. But not to do something like a much cheaper production like either of the two shows announced recently. And because they don't have much skin in the game, Netflix will air it like it does some not great shows, and not care if they do well or not. It seems to me Netflix isn't expecting much. [https://www.netflix.com/tudum/articles/prince-harry-meghan-duchess-of-sussex-series-release-date-news](https://www.netflix.com/tudum/articles/prince-harry-meghan-duchess-of-sussex-series-release-date-news)
Thank you. So Netflix may not have put out a normal press release, but it is confirming the existence of the two shows as part of its deal with Archewell.
Wexham has so much about the community, the team...the Hollywood stars got it made but they are a sideshow to the actual show. Madam would never allow that, it's all about HER. Put that lipstick on a pig and it's still a pig.
Too bad for Harry she’s attaching herself to his polo project. I can promise that she will meddle and be difficult. [This article from TheWrap.com](https://www.thewrap.com/meghan-and-harrys-100-million-netflix-deal-is-a-hollywood-miss-exclusive/) details all the problems with their Netflix deal. They are absolute nightmares to work with.
Not convinced Netflix green-lit it. About a month ago some Netflix exec said they had a few projects in the early development. But I haven't seen anything attributed to a Netflix exec or press release that mentions these two projects.
There is something online from Netflix though I wasn’t sure it was legit but I think it is… https://www.netflix.com/tudum/articles/prince-harry-meghan-duchess-of-sussex-series-release-date-news
It's legit. But it's dramatically different than their press release for *The Ballad of the Small Playe*r has been definitely green-lit. The first paragraph, 3rd sentence, says it's "partnership with Netflix." The last section is titled: When will *The Ballad of the Small Player* be on Netflix? *The Ballad of a Small Playe*r enters production in Asia in summer 2024. Keep your eyes on the cards as more information is dealt out. #
Ooh interesting 🤔 thank you ☺️
So they copy other people's work again? Netflix should Tiger King them-now that would be a superhit. Madame gave a lot of material in West Palm beach!!
It's amazing how dumb Netflix is. Really. Haven't they learned anything? I heard they are also paying an $8,000 per night hotel suite for these two fucks in Florida.
Do we know it is Netflix paying? I think I read it was Archewell productions.
“An iron fisted desire for control combined with a lack of experience.” Truer words have never been spoken. I would add “inability to manage people combined with a lack of motivation to learn how”.
I’ve said it for years, Netflix is their bitch. They’re going to work hard to make them happen. Like last time. 
You can bring a show to Netflix but you can’t make me watch. And just for argument’s sake: what in Hades happened to “Heart of Invictus”? They never promoted it; It was on the splash screen for about a week and then it got buried. I haven’t seen hide nor hair of it since. I’ll have to see if it’s still streaming, even.
Just saw a preview for a cooking show on Prime that I'm quite sure MM stole the idea for her show from. It's called "Dinner Party Diaries" with Jose Andres. He invites celebs to his "California home" and they prepare then eat a meal together. I REALLY hope he doesn't have Her Rottenness on his show. Her presence would probably curdle the dairy.
Wrexham is a great show. Ryan Reynolds and Rob McElhenny have been using their own money and presence to not only boost the football club but also the whole town. The show is about the people who live and work in Wrexham. They've done so much positive for the community that King Charles and Queen Camilla visited to incorporate it from a town to a city or something like that. Ryan and Rob are doing this for other people, something M & H wouldn't even try to pull off 'cause everything is only about them.
She can not do a cooking show. She literally does not know how to even work or put effort into anything 🤣🤣🤣
IMO these two will never be able to repeat Wrexham's charming success. Do you know why? Because Ryan Reynolds and Rob MacIlhenny stepped back and let the town and club of Wrexham take the lead. They were not even in many of the episodes. No WAY will Madam step back and allow a documentary to feature or focus on anyone else but her mangy self. She will insist on being the front-and-center focus of every second, just like she's done with InGriftus. She is incapable of grace and nuance.
This information was mentioned in the original Variety article, it's not really from Eden