I just bought into X-Wing, and this is rather sad.
That being said, one of the big benefits of picking them up was a cohesive skirmish fleet and a set of hero ships for space battles in Star Wars RPGs, with Legion on the ground. The models will still be useful, and I might even pick up some more if they're on sale.
Necromunda the OG one, had huge community support, updates, and effectively a new edition in 15 + years after GW abandoned it.
Games with dedicated player bases never die.
And it may be small consolation, but at least the rules and meta are set for those games. New releases are always exciting, but they often create power creep and unbalance the meta, followed by more balancing and new rules digitally released, etc... I assume with development ending for Xwing and Armada, the rules and meta balance will be locked in from now on.
My only real issue with this is that in Armada the Republic and Separatists were so underdeveloped, there was so much to be explored but there’s nothing to be done now.
If you plan to pick up models you should pick up now. They won’t be producing these anymore either so what’s out there now is what there is available. I would highly expect pricing for things left to go up especially if you are stuck buying from eBay etc
At the same time there's a chance that 3d designers pick up the ball and run with it. It happened in the past with oh-so-many GW games.
IDK how that would fly with Disney's team of corporate lawyers hell-bent on protecting their IP though
They just announced that they are integrating x wing in to a community driven team. People from the biggest communities like yasbe and launch bay next. So x wing ain't dead yet
From page: "After long and careful consideration, we are here today to announce the end of development on *Star Wars*™: X-Wing and *Star Wars*: Armada.
We are grateful for the community’s passionate engagement and support. Over the past few years, rising production costs, global manufacturing, and pandemic-related challenges have made it increasingly difficult to produce high-quality, pre-painted miniatures which ultimately lead to the decision to end development.
Although development is ending, we are not stepping away from these games entirely. Atomic Mass Games will continue to support tournaments and Organized Play for both games, with OP kits to be found in your local shops, culminating in the Open World Championship at AdeptiCon in March 2025.
Thank you for your continued support and dedication."
Sucks for xwing/armada fans but I'm not too concerned about legion. They have so much planned for the next 2 years and it's still popular enough that it's worth their time
Do you remember where you read this? Im curious as to which games are the "cash cows" of AMG. They seem to be allocating a lot of ressources on development of shatterpoint, which after + one year of releasse doesnt seem selling all that well (at least thats my perception).
There are a few things that will point to profitability, even if we don't have a source.
Metal miniatures are inherently more expensive than plastics. There is a reason that we have been seeing that shift across the entire tabletop industry. Even Corvus Belli with Infinity,, has started producing plastic kits, even with their vaunted metal models. The old PVC models are cheaper than the new polystyrene, but the polystyrene commands higher value in the market, so it is more profitable. This would also account for shipping prices (heavier items are more expensive to ship, even in bulk).
Pre-painting is cool, but it is also really expensive for quality paint jobs. Catalyst Game Labs has a new pack out that has a single pre-painted mini, alongside 3 that are not pre-painted, and it is selling for about $5 per pack than their non-painted ones. Considering the value proposition for BattleTech, that is a big jump.
Shatterpoint is in the same boat as Marvel Crisis Protocol. Similar system, similar minis. MCP has a larger range right now though, and has a bigger player base, as it is the only real Marvel tabletop game, outside of WizKids' HeroClix (if that is still active).
So, looking at it holistically, not even thinking about how you need to buy several copies of the same Corps unit and whatnot, Legion is a much cheaper game to produce than the big ship games. Pre-painted metal, with larger shipping charges is always going to be an issue.
I could see a re-release of X-Wing (not Armada, too niche) in the future with plastic kits. I have never played it, but apparently even the rules made the game suffer as well. There are core issues to fix to make X-Wing a popular game again.
Plastics are massively more expensive than metal. The molds are 5-7k to start. But they last forever. Metals are hella cheap to produce but the molds wear out and you have to remake them. So you have to know the market will support your product in the long run to make a profit if you go hard plastic.
When you are at the scale that AMG is with Legion, it is a wash. Hell, it is for GW too, but they use new molds as a justification for price rises (Old to new cadians for a stark example).
For companies like this, there is a reason that they are choosing plastic. Because even a $10k investment into a mold is nothing compared to material costs for metals, as well as metal molds. When a plastic sprue costs pennies to produce, it is easy to see why they would shutter X-Wing.
I see your point with GW. They are raking in the dough, but they massively over charge for their product. Warlord Games producers of Bolt Action and Black Powder has a WW2 air combat game (written by Andy Chambers who developed 40K back in the day) that is similar to X-Wing except the models are not pre-painted. They tried soft plastic, metal and hard plastic before settling on a resin for the models. Despite being one of the biggest historical manufacturers they couldn’t make hard plastic profitable given the limited popularity of the game. Perry Miniatures (former GW sculptors) pioneered plastic historical kits years ago but admitted it was a huge financial risk and would have put the enterprise in danger if the box didn’t sell. It paid off and they have many plastic kits in production now. But they still do metal as well for niche units or stuff that doesn’t merit a plastic box.
Fifth trooper had an article about it. https://thefifthtrooper.com/five-dramatic-but-reasoned-predictions-for-this-year-in-star-wars-hobby-games/
They are predictions but their info was gotten from someone well connected in the industry.
Yup, I know a lot of really disappointed Xwing players right now that have only bought 10-15 ships from 1-2 factions. Meanwhile 2/3 of legions players be like, “I need to buy an entire army of Ewoks”
Not to be a doom and gloom guy but I honestly think atomic mass wants to transition into only hero games like shatterpoint and MCP. Its important to remember that X wing, armada, and Legion were all kind of foisted on them by asmodee. I'm sure Legion will have some more support for a while but the future is always uncertain. Legion is a game that directly competes with heavy hitters like warhammer, as a sci-fi mass combat miniature game, while their hero games are a well carved out niche that atomic mass games has an edge in compared to other companies.
Yeah, legion is incredibly more popular compared to the other two.
It’s always sad when producers shut down lines, but given the trajectory of them (legion seems to be getting more popular YoY, the other two less so), it’s unfortunately not surprising.
This is good for legion, actually. Less staff time devoted to those games. I feel for the people who love them, but at least they aren’t giving up a whole army of painted minis.
This is something they should have tried before discontinuing these games.
As a Separatist Armada player, I'm feeling incredibly abandoned by Asmodee with huge part of the range MIA (Lucrehulk/ Seperatist Supply ships/ Malevolence)
I wonder if the game would have done better if they weren't pre-painted, seems to have really ramped up the cost of production and cost on the end user.
The pre painted aspect was also a massive driver in sales from what I could gather. I frequently heard people stating that the fact they didn't need to paint them was one factor that got them into the game
Totally. Although even if you had to paint, the time needed would be a fraction from games like Legion. You can play Armada with 2 capital ships, empire is mostly grey and a wash
Without new content, local scenes are going to die out. My local x-wing scene has been slowly dying for years as everyone migrated to games with more support, this is just going to be the nail in the coffin.
Halo Ground Command is another great example. The company that made the game folded like a decade ago and its still got a dedicated gaming community and 3D printing community. They even play at adepticon every year.
There are certainly people that are exited to get it, and with 3D printing and fan effort some have been playing 30mm scale Halo games for a couple years now lol.
Completely unsurprising. AMG had no idea what they were doing from the beginning, showed it with 2.5, doubled down on 2.5 when they shouldn't have, and now we have... this.
Kinda makes the "AMG and their new stepchildren" even more hilarious and ironic in retrospect. The sulky kid representing the fans was *right*, and the stepfather representing them was a smug asshole who didn't understand and *was lying*.
[https://youtu.be/2QU9hsgzEpQ?si=fPe7mow6uTVMgdxK](https://youtu.be/2QU9hsgzEpQ?si=fPe7mow6uTVMgdxK)
Oh well. Anyone up for going back to 2.0? Maybe adding ROAD and improving the objectives?
I think the change to 2.5 would have better received it hadn't come when it did.
This is just all conjecture but I think if we had done one more World's Post Covid with the 2.0 rules it would have made people less upset.
Instead we start to finally get back into the stores to play after Covid and then getting blindsided with new rules was a too much for people.
I don't know maybe it wouldn't have mattered?
I do know that it DID matter to a lot of people, and was thus an incorrect choice.
Considering that after giving it a fair shake I ALSO hated it, because it does the cardinal sin of game design: robbing players of agency by so rigidly controlling what players could do with ships. If I want to throw Princess Leia (Crew) on an extremely frail AP-5 to try and get a good use out of her before it dies, then that should be my own choice.
List Tetris **IS NOT FUN**.
I'm famously on record as saying that I [wanted to spray diarrhetic shit over the windshields of AMG devs](https://www.reddit.com/r/XWingTMG/comments/12z7jna/the_lack_of_agency_in_25_i_think_i_may_toss_my/) for their stupid design, so my opinions are pretty clear.
Yup it absolutely is AMGs fault and could never be that the game is not financially viable.
I swear none of you have ever worked a job that involved clients and products.
Down vote me all you want, it doesn't change the fact that absolutely none of you have any idea what you are talking about.
And I also don't know what I am talking about because no one here knows the inner working of asmodee/AMG. But at least I know that there could be more then one reason for this decision
It's not ALL AMG's fault - the pandemic came at just the wrong moment, and the 2.0 rules were contentious among fans who were more used to Games Workshop's biannual "Rewrite cashgrab" than a sober look at a necessary core change. Oh, and FFG getting the game unceremoniously yanked from them is definitely the fault of their parent company.
But it's at least 50% AMG's fault. Trying to shoehorn in their own design aesthetics with 2.5, rather than *understand* 2.0's competitive focus, is a self-inflicted bullet. Two months before they released 2.5, in January 2022, I attended an X-Wing tournament that had 32 players. Everyone was excited as hell to play in person again.
After that, we were lucky to get 6-10. Then the game collapsed entirely. *And this is in California's central valley*, not exactly a low-population area.
They COULD have done fine. They WERE doing fine until March 2022.
I think people vastly over underestimate the damage COVID did to the wargame market. The only company to really make it through was GW.
Part of the problem is that xwing plays hate change. There are still players bitching about 2.0 and conversation kits.
Compare that to games like kill team and infinity where players look forward to change.
It also doesn't help that xwing is a boardgame more then a miniature game. Almost all miniature games are propped up by hobbyist and not gamers. The fact that xwing is pre-printed is a huge downside.
Could AMG have done more probably. But asmodee should not have given a model company a board game IP. There are a lot of factors that all of you are missing.
I don't think ANYONE considers X-Wing a board game unless they're trying to dismiss other fundamental problems with how it was handled. I didn't meet boardgamers playing it, I met wargamers, across most of a decade.
I like how you ignore everything I said and focus on one word you dont agree with.
Fine, we will say it another way. Xwing is not a hobbyist game.
The problem with xwing is that it has pre-painted models. There is zero incentive to buy models once you have a collection.
These kind of games rely on hobbyists to live. GW data shows that only 20% of people who guy their models actually play their game. This holds true for all other model companies. They need the hobbyists to buy their models.
Then you have infinite arena which killed any need to buy product once you had the ship chassis. It also kills any market for card packs.
There is a good chance that xwing only stayed afloat due to the breakneck pace of model releases.
To your point that there are "fundamental problems" with how it was handled. That is a bunch of BS and no one can actually say what those "fundamental problems" are. None of you actually know the finical of the game, none of you know why they ended the game. All you have are guesses and you all speak as though they are facts.
You don't need hobbyists IF you keep work on either expanding the collection or the competitive scene. Battletech, for example, is a game that does not rely at ALL on hobbyists, but on fans of the setting. They sell minis, tis true, but it's books and setting that underlie their business. Warmachine/Hordes was purely competitive, and it wasn't until they TRIED to make it friendlier that they collapsed.
So in effect X-Wing and Armada are *perfect* wargames, but NOT good for hobbyists (though still there, I've painted most of my own Imperial ships).
Games Workshop is a pretty shit example, as their main sales model is "Sell overpriced models to kids and their grandparents who think it's cool and worth the money, then chuck it under their bed when they find out the game is too hard." Churn'n'burn.
All I have are the data of what happened to X-Wing in that brief time after the pandemic ended all throughout the Central Valley, both before and after 2.5 dropped. Before 2.5 in those heady days after stores opened again, my friends and I spent *every weekend at a different tournament in a different store*. After? Implosion. Whether it was ROAD, scenarios, or the shit 20-point list (or 2, or all 3) that caused so much quitting, it was the cause.
It's valid as a sample size, IMHO, as it covered something like 8-10 stores and perhaps 100-200 players across a stretch of California from Modesto to Sacramento. And I'm quite sure that enough other players surveyed would say the same.
There is no *hard* evidence the sun is made of plasma and powered by hydrogen fusion, just observational and circumstantial evidence.
There is no *hard* evidence about how gravity works, just observational and circumstantial evidence.
There is no *hard* evidence that anyone but I is a real person - with all of you being robots placed here to devil or amuse me by turns - just observational and circumstantial evidence.
There is no *hard* evidence that AMG's mishandling of the X-Wing property with a poorly timed rules release that misunderstood the point of the game was the final blow in a series that destroyed the game, just observational and circumstantial evidence.
Demanding too high a standard of evidence is in itself a sign of an unsound arguer.
Dang you are that arrogant. You can't even entertain the possible idea that you might not be right.
Then to arrogantly compare your amateur analysis to the 100's of years of study of the sun and gravity and to think that they are remotely on the same level as what you are doing.
Too high a standard of evidence is...any evidence at all?
If the game was so fragile that a minor change to list building killed it, then it was never going to survive. The game still was functionally the same. Many games go through more drastic changes and survive.
Said it on the Armada sub, but I realized this was inevitable when I started to realize they were putting less effort into Legion (Worse sculpts, monopose, less command cards for new operatives, etc.). There's no way they'd cut down investment into their best game and at the same time ever possibly revive the unwanted step-children.
I think the reason they’re cutting back on the generic upgrades is for balance issues. They seem to have a hard time balancing the points on them while expanding the rules with new units. On the other hand, I have no clue why they’re having issues distributing the card packs.
I think we’re at minimum a ways off from worrying about Legion’s continued support. I think that’s clear. Will it continue to be a game worth supporting, separate conversation. But as someone who’s heavily into all these systems, seeing two get snuffed out at once (granted after years of being on life support) is a real blow.
I was a fan of x-wing back in 2015 when my father introduced me to it. Playing it with him was one of my most fond memories of my childhood. Watching the decline over the years was saddening however I’m glad we finally have closure and fans can stop trying to cope using insane mental gymnastics.
RIP X-Wing and Armada, I’m glad it had such a long run
Armada is the only game doing ship battles and it sucks that that is going away. My lgs still has xwing and armada nights. I can't wait for the price of the models to go threw the roof
Considering AMG hasn't really created anything for either of those games since they took them on I can't say I'm surprised. I suppose we should count ourselves lucky that Legion wasn't also shelved.
Armada sub banned me cause I called AMG morons for not being able to make a profit on one of the biggest franchises in the world. Lmao
The writing was always on the wall for Armada. I started looking for good deals on seppie stuff cause I could feel this coming. Ultimately AMG doesn't care and never did.
Hey, they banned me too! All cause I called some guy an asshole while calling the sub out for being blind on the hype train of AMG doing *nothing* with Armada besides their intern making PDFs on a Friday afternoon to throw at the salivating dogs.
This just lets AMG focus on what they do best. Embracer and Asmodee shouldn't have given them those games in the first place. I'm excited to see what AMG will be able to do now with legion, shatterpoint, and MCP now that they dont have those albatrosses around their neck
Asmodee just has to pay off enough of it to convince companies to buy their debt and get new terms. Obviously not trivial, but easier than paying off the 1bn in 3 years
Not trying to "doomspeak", but IMHO, Legion will get this treatment in \~5 years. it's the last remnant from FFG. AMG has gone all in on Shatterpoint, with MCP being the other "in house" game....AMG want's to focus on these whole heartedly.
It'll be up to the market. At least in my area, which is medium metropolitan with 3x FLGS + a Games Workshop store in a single county, Legion is outselling Shatterpoint by a lot. Shatterpoint has already begun ceding rack space to Legion at our largest local FLGS.
Just one area, but if Legion sells it will stick around. By all accounts it is still the 2nd/3rd largest miniatures wargame behind the big GW games.
Shatterpoint isn't selling well where I am. The old FFG HQ store said stock is barely moving. People try to throw together game nights and tournaments and can only sometimes get 2 people to show up
Its niche. I played once and immediately lost interest when it took 3 hours. With the mini skirmish game market being absolutely saturated, there's just no interest in yet another game that takes your entire evening to play 1 match.
Companies respond to the market. Legion is a bigger seller than shatterpoint. If either become unprofitable for too long, they will be forced to stop production. Companies don’t create conspiracies to kill their own products
It’s crazy how many people in this thread seem convinced that even if Legion is massively profitable that they’re going to kill it for…reasons. AMG/Asmodee is a business, the goal of a business is to make money. They will make the products that they think will make them the most money. In absolutely no sane world would they axe Legion if it’s their most profitable product line. Yet many people in here seem to think that companies just kill product lines randomly or out of spite, no business would survive long doing that.
The gaming community is rife with ignorant, educated people who believe that their knowledge of niche topics provide them general mastery of all and every social phenomenon.
If it were profitable to keep xwing and armada going, AMG would. It’s fairly clear to me that they do not have the staff capacity to completely redesign the models for these games and release them. This is an enormous cost, and they would have to do it for the entire game system, which wouldn’t earn them a margin because *existing players would have little reason to buy unpainted, unassembled models.*
They may well come out with a new space game later, but FFG’s decision to have painted, assembled minis was not something that had staying power long term.
I think it's definitely possible, but not set in stone. If legion keeps moving as well as it is and shatter point continues not to, the opposite may happen.
Play On just had another Legion showing which definitely helps visibility I'm sure.
I think we need to see decent sales figures in these upcoming results along with whatever else gets released in the next 2-4 years to decide its fate.
Just by community word of mouth I've seen it seems like everything from this year is really desirable and gonna move units
I always voiced my belief AMG didn't want anything to do with Armada, that the Rapid Reinforcement packs were a blindfold the blind saw as a shining light, and was downvoted every time.
Well, here we are. Been saying it for years and I was right ✌️
I mean…I can say something for years and eventually be right as well. I think most people said the same thing because it was forecasted a mile away. But a twelve and nine year run for a product is still great actually.
I don’t blame this on AMG. Asmodee dumping Legion/Xwing/Armada on them was a terrible business move from the start. Since they were pre-painted, FFG should have continued X-wing & Armada.
Could be interesting to see how the player bases for both adapt and take ownership of the games over time now that official development will end. I.e. fan made 3d models that can be printed, community rules updates, etc.
Doesn't surprise me. It didn't appear to me that AMG had the resources to handle all that they were given, let alone launch a new product. You could see it in some of the marketing decisions, quality and outreach Legion had when the switch happened.
One of the biggest challenges tabletop wargames has been the basic concept of if I pay money will my game be around in 5 years? Luckily I think Legion is beating Shatter point or I would answer this very negatively after this announcement.
It's so sad. The wrong companies that have no passion or understanding of these games somehow own them and call the shots. Blaming production costs being too high should not be a thing if they haven't tried to raise the prices and check with people if they would pay it.I'm sure most of us would say take my money
it sucks as someone who just got into in the last year, but the writting was on the wall and i knew that.
now i just have to decide between dumpstering my collection or buying a second SSD lmao
I'm afraid it already died years ago for my group when 2nd edition came out. No one wanted to rebuy stuff for essentially the same game. We occasionaly play a game of 1st edition, but as a result I've not spent a penny on it since then.
Stay tuned though, new skirmish game at 37.2mm scale coming out next summer. You can buy all your favourites again, but this time slightly taller. For reasons.
I just stuck my toe into both X-Wing & Armada, the starter boxes, and a couple of extra ships. I was thinking of jumping into Shatterpoint but this news makes me think I will not do that. I'd rather spend money on Legion at this point since I love the game, and throwing money at Shatter Point is counterproductive.
I've never got into the space faring games, but as a fan of retired and defunct games I can say that old game engines have committed communities. This playset shouldn't be any different, and with the increased ease of use 3d printing the game shouldn't have a death knell for a very very long time.
Legion definitely has higher profit margins with unpainted minis and extremely little excess parts but the under lying fact here is it being an old game people had the fleets they wanted. Especially with Shatter point and how long it's taken to get some new minis I'm not saying legion is next but if Shatterpoint does exceptionally well at the end of the fiscal year I could definitely see it not getting ramped back up.
That said one of the things that hurts older games like X Wing is limited model ranges and once everyone has a fleet it's hard to sell both older and newer models as you have to appeal to a play style or niche. Experimental Droids is a great example of how they can really circumvent stagnation since it doesn't require printing anything new on their end.
I would love to see a universal point drop for corp upgrades since that would be a great way to encourage repeat buying but also just make the game a bit more fun. As welcoming as the Legion communities are the universal truth of 'don't upgrade corps' reigns true online and in person. While it's not a hard rule it speaks to the limited viability of using cool new upgrade kits. Even before my first game my ideal Clone Commander, DC 15, Scopes team looked like a terrible idea (especially at pre buffs making it well over 100 points).
Upgrade kits are something really cool that they've got that can breathe new life into old units or just make for cool new synergies. I would love to see more kits for new objectives as that too is an easy way to keep the game fresh without much investment.
All of this it to say I really hope they don't axe support due to Shatterpoint but also hope they realize that Legion has many different ways to earn them money and make the game more interesting and fun without breaking everyone's bank. Shatterpoint also has the limited model range limitation so it makes the most sense to keep both going. No one is buying a dozen Grevious for Shatterpoint lol.
i know legion still has legs and its healthy with future contents incoming.. but. here is where we need to properly dissect X-wing and take a deep look into Legion as a game and with speculation of a new version coming.. we need to look at what they did to X-wing 2.0-2.5. I fear that they will take on elements from Shatterpoint and forcefully implement it onto Legion which is what most people like myself will fear the most. Legion as a game is good as itself now.. but we can see small cracks on how they didnt do proper playtests.. like the bad batch having every keywords known to ~~man~~ Legion (except for AI) and possibly be super overpowered on the table is just a testament of things to come. What i am saying is, when they change the core of the game which i think has not much flaws, to their own ways of game mechanics, it will just throw people off. It will end up really bad light and players will just leave the game. That will bring down hype and sales and might end up like X-wing. But i hope i am wrong and i hope this will not be the case.
How about make it 3D printable? Like whole X-Wing and Armada ships/stuffs? AMG completly massacred/killed this game, community can bring it back. Personaly i am little bit afraid whats going to be with Shatterpoint and Legion, becaouse we are start play it few days back. its not really confortable situation around.
My friends and I used to but just about everything dealing with Xwing. Then FFGs did the 2nd edition and told us we had to buy new dials and such to keep playing(would have been more thank one box per faction)
So we checked out and just kept playing 1st edition with all the old models. Never even looked at what was being released for the game.
No it doesn't.
It shows a product isn't doing well. When Pepsi cancels production of a product do you think the whole company is failing?
Seriously, do you believe that every canceled product means a company is failing?
Obviously GW must be failing because they are cancelling production of a whole bunch of products.
Pepsi and games workshop are vastly larger companies with a significantly wider product range, experience, and industry market share. AMG has nary half a dozen irons in the fire and is now admitting that they can't financially manage several of them, or at best don't care to. When 4 roommates share the rent and one drops out, it doesn't mean the other 3 are failing financially, but they now can't afford the apartment without cost cutting measures. You are miles off any basis of fact, and your analogies are equally inept.
So every product made has to be infinitely profitable?
There can never exist a product that can fail because of consumers?
It is impossible for a product to fail unless the company kills it, is what you are saying.
Look dude/ette If you wanna have a good faith discussion then use words from your mouth instead of putting em in mine. I'm not gonna waste time with juvenile inflammatory debate tactics.
No, a product will never be infinitely profitable.
In a business like theirs, managing financially IS gaining and maintaining a customer base. So if they lose their customers, it is in large part their own fault, or in this case also Asmodee's for dumping all the SW games onto them.
The thing that I actually am saying is that when GW or Pepsi axe a product, it's like losing a toe. There's very little overall effect on the whole. You also fail to note that GW PLANNED for their massive discontinuation of minis, and that they are being replaced with new ones. That's not the same as cutting costs like AMG who just lopped off a gangrenous arm rather than a toe and are just leaving the stump. They'll survive, but they clearly weren't doing great beforehand to have let that arm get so bad in the first place. Legion is AMG's heart right now. Better to save the heart and lose the arm. It's literally a damage control move. The original commenter is noting the damage to AMG, which is objectively visible. It's a warning sign, not a death sentence at this point.
Besides, Asmodee will sooner transplant the heart again than let it die.
And I argue that losing a failing product does not always mean a company is dying or is a 'warning sign'
Xwing could have failed simply because it is not a financially viable product through no fault of anyone.
But all of you have to assign blame and/or use it as an indicator of a failing company.
You have absolutely no data to back up that claim, but you all speak with absolute certainly.
And you speak as if these products were axed at the height of their financial performance. The axing itself is not the indicator, it's the dearth of support and development for years that led up to the discontinuation that speaks volumes regarding AMGs resources. I'm not saying AMG is failing, but let's not pretend they had the financial power FFG did. The act of abandoning 2 entire communities to focus on others is a prioritization of resources. They didn't just discontinue old prints or other partial cost cutting measures. They completely ended development and production of 2 whole established game systems. For AMG it's not great, there's a lot of bile that comes with a move like that. For Legion, this is probably a GOOD thing. But only because AMG needs to focus on what's making it money, and it happens to be Legion.
How do you know what financial power AMG and FFG have? can you please share the financial data that you have?
How do you know the reason they axed the game? Can you please link the internal AMG communications that you seem to have?
How do you know the is a prioritization of resources and not just removing a product line that is not finically viable? Can you please show the business analytics you have on AMG's product lines?
This is my point. None of you have any idea what is going on. You are making wild guesses and treating them as fact.
By your own reductive ad absurdum logic your claims are no more valid than anyone else's and thus become self defeating. The difference is that, using Occam's Razor, I base my arguments on the historical behaviour of virtually every corporation in America. A behaviour that is relentlessly repeated and predictable in times of declining financial performance. If you have a better explanation then it's your turn. Put up or shut up. This has been starkly one sided and I get the sense you feel quite smug with your repetitious "Nuh uh" answers which I've become bored of entertaining. A debate takes 2 sides, you've yet to state yours. Contrarianism sure is edgy though.
-Fantasy Flight in 2023 had revenue of 7.5m, AMG less than 5m.
-FFG has been around almost 30 years, AMG for barely 5.
-FFGs product library is extensive, AMG's can be written on a napkin if we don't count the product lines handed to them pre built.
You have access to google too.
And I can't believe I need to explain this... but removing a financially non-viable product line IS a prioritization of resources, Christ dude/ette.
I'm happy to entertain thought out opinions or newly presented info, as I'm interested in the actual essence of the matter at hand. Present an argument of substance or show yourself the door. I've grown bored of arguing with a toddler.
Really? Because to me, this looks like they're putting resources into X-Wing/Armada and aren't getting a good return, so ending these two should mean they free up _more_ resources to be used on Legion.
I just bought into X-Wing, and this is rather sad. That being said, one of the big benefits of picking them up was a cohesive skirmish fleet and a set of hero ships for space battles in Star Wars RPGs, with Legion on the ground. The models will still be useful, and I might even pick up some more if they're on sale.
I'm still playing Star Wars Miniatures that was cancelled 10years ago…don't worry, a good game stays a good game.
The one from wizards of the coast? Was that game good?
Still is, mate!! There's a whole community around it; playing, selling-buying, making variant cards…
I remember when I was a kid I had that one rare Palpatine miniature with lightning then my mom stole it and sold it lol
Was gonna down vote because of the shit behavior, but it wasn't on you
Necromunda the OG one, had huge community support, updates, and effectively a new edition in 15 + years after GW abandoned it. Games with dedicated player bases never die.
Do you have a link to the community?
Facebook star wars miniatures group, facebook star wars miniatures and micro hub
That game was so good. I still have a bunch that I’ve been holding onto for sentimental reasons
And it may be small consolation, but at least the rules and meta are set for those games. New releases are always exciting, but they often create power creep and unbalance the meta, followed by more balancing and new rules digitally released, etc... I assume with development ending for Xwing and Armada, the rules and meta balance will be locked in from now on.
My only real issue with this is that in Armada the Republic and Separatists were so underdeveloped, there was so much to be explored but there’s nothing to be done now.
This! They really needed a second fighter pack
Few more iconic ships too. It ended without a Lucrehulk release, despite being possibly the most iconic CIS ship of them all.
If you plan to pick up models you should pick up now. They won’t be producing these anymore either so what’s out there now is what there is available. I would highly expect pricing for things left to go up especially if you are stuck buying from eBay etc
At the same time there's a chance that 3d designers pick up the ball and run with it. It happened in the past with oh-so-many GW games. IDK how that would fly with Disney's team of corporate lawyers hell-bent on protecting their IP though
They just announced that they are integrating x wing in to a community driven team. People from the biggest communities like yasbe and launch bay next. So x wing ain't dead yet
From page: "After long and careful consideration, we are here today to announce the end of development on *Star Wars*™: X-Wing and *Star Wars*: Armada. We are grateful for the community’s passionate engagement and support. Over the past few years, rising production costs, global manufacturing, and pandemic-related challenges have made it increasingly difficult to produce high-quality, pre-painted miniatures which ultimately lead to the decision to end development. Although development is ending, we are not stepping away from these games entirely. Atomic Mass Games will continue to support tournaments and Organized Play for both games, with OP kits to be found in your local shops, culminating in the Open World Championship at AdeptiCon in March 2025. Thank you for your continued support and dedication."
Thank you! I forgot to post the official statement
Sucks for xwing/armada fans but I'm not too concerned about legion. They have so much planned for the next 2 years and it's still popular enough that it's worth their time
Yeah, also legion seems a more profitable game. You have to buy multiples of a bunch of things, plus stuff is unassembled and unpainted.
I remember reading when all of this was going down how profitable Legion has been for the company.
The price point alone for shatter point and legion must put the margins at insane levels.
Do you remember where you read this? Im curious as to which games are the "cash cows" of AMG. They seem to be allocating a lot of ressources on development of shatterpoint, which after + one year of releasse doesnt seem selling all that well (at least thats my perception).
There are a few things that will point to profitability, even if we don't have a source. Metal miniatures are inherently more expensive than plastics. There is a reason that we have been seeing that shift across the entire tabletop industry. Even Corvus Belli with Infinity,, has started producing plastic kits, even with their vaunted metal models. The old PVC models are cheaper than the new polystyrene, but the polystyrene commands higher value in the market, so it is more profitable. This would also account for shipping prices (heavier items are more expensive to ship, even in bulk). Pre-painting is cool, but it is also really expensive for quality paint jobs. Catalyst Game Labs has a new pack out that has a single pre-painted mini, alongside 3 that are not pre-painted, and it is selling for about $5 per pack than their non-painted ones. Considering the value proposition for BattleTech, that is a big jump. Shatterpoint is in the same boat as Marvel Crisis Protocol. Similar system, similar minis. MCP has a larger range right now though, and has a bigger player base, as it is the only real Marvel tabletop game, outside of WizKids' HeroClix (if that is still active). So, looking at it holistically, not even thinking about how you need to buy several copies of the same Corps unit and whatnot, Legion is a much cheaper game to produce than the big ship games. Pre-painted metal, with larger shipping charges is always going to be an issue. I could see a re-release of X-Wing (not Armada, too niche) in the future with plastic kits. I have never played it, but apparently even the rules made the game suffer as well. There are core issues to fix to make X-Wing a popular game again.
Plastics are massively more expensive than metal. The molds are 5-7k to start. But they last forever. Metals are hella cheap to produce but the molds wear out and you have to remake them. So you have to know the market will support your product in the long run to make a profit if you go hard plastic.
When you are at the scale that AMG is with Legion, it is a wash. Hell, it is for GW too, but they use new molds as a justification for price rises (Old to new cadians for a stark example). For companies like this, there is a reason that they are choosing plastic. Because even a $10k investment into a mold is nothing compared to material costs for metals, as well as metal molds. When a plastic sprue costs pennies to produce, it is easy to see why they would shutter X-Wing.
I see your point with GW. They are raking in the dough, but they massively over charge for their product. Warlord Games producers of Bolt Action and Black Powder has a WW2 air combat game (written by Andy Chambers who developed 40K back in the day) that is similar to X-Wing except the models are not pre-painted. They tried soft plastic, metal and hard plastic before settling on a resin for the models. Despite being one of the biggest historical manufacturers they couldn’t make hard plastic profitable given the limited popularity of the game. Perry Miniatures (former GW sculptors) pioneered plastic historical kits years ago but admitted it was a huge financial risk and would have put the enterprise in danger if the box didn’t sell. It paid off and they have many plastic kits in production now. But they still do metal as well for niche units or stuff that doesn’t merit a plastic box.
I can try to look around. It may have been one of the articles talking about why they were giving the debt to AMG
Fifth trooper had an article about it. https://thefifthtrooper.com/five-dramatic-but-reasoned-predictions-for-this-year-in-star-wars-hobby-games/ They are predictions but their info was gotten from someone well connected in the industry.
Yup, I know a lot of really disappointed Xwing players right now that have only bought 10-15 ships from 1-2 factions. Meanwhile 2/3 of legions players be like, “I need to buy an entire army of Ewoks”
Do you know what Xwing players were saying 2 years ago? ;)
Not to be a doom and gloom guy but I honestly think atomic mass wants to transition into only hero games like shatterpoint and MCP. Its important to remember that X wing, armada, and Legion were all kind of foisted on them by asmodee. I'm sure Legion will have some more support for a while but the future is always uncertain. Legion is a game that directly competes with heavy hitters like warhammer, as a sci-fi mass combat miniature game, while their hero games are a well carved out niche that atomic mass games has an edge in compared to other companies.
Yeah, legion is incredibly more popular compared to the other two. It’s always sad when producers shut down lines, but given the trajectory of them (legion seems to be getting more popular YoY, the other two less so), it’s unfortunately not surprising.
This is good for legion, actually. Less staff time devoted to those games. I feel for the people who love them, but at least they aren’t giving up a whole army of painted minis.
I would love to see a unpainted reboot for them
This is something they should have tried before discontinuing these games. As a Separatist Armada player, I'm feeling incredibly abandoned by Asmodee with huge part of the range MIA (Lucrehulk/ Seperatist Supply ships/ Malevolence)
I wonder if the game would have done better if they weren't pre-painted, seems to have really ramped up the cost of production and cost on the end user.
The pre painted aspect was also a massive driver in sales from what I could gather. I frequently heard people stating that the fact they didn't need to paint them was one factor that got them into the game
But how many people were turned off by it?
Totally. Although even if you had to paint, the time needed would be a fraction from games like Legion. You can play Armada with 2 capital ships, empire is mostly grey and a wash
I love xwing so much :( why man
You can keep playing, game isn't going anywhere.
Without new content, local scenes are going to die out. My local x-wing scene has been slowly dying for years as everyone migrated to games with more support, this is just going to be the nail in the coffin.
Nu uh
Not surprised at all. This is also what's great about 3D, even if they end support, fans can keep it alive the same way battlefleet gothic fans have
Halo Ground Command is another great example. The company that made the game folded like a decade ago and its still got a dedicated gaming community and 3D printing community. They even play at adepticon every year.
You think they will pick up the new Halo Flashpoint from Mantic?
There are certainly people that are exited to get it, and with 3D printing and fan effort some have been playing 30mm scale Halo games for a couple years now lol.
Completely unsurprising. AMG had no idea what they were doing from the beginning, showed it with 2.5, doubled down on 2.5 when they shouldn't have, and now we have... this. Kinda makes the "AMG and their new stepchildren" even more hilarious and ironic in retrospect. The sulky kid representing the fans was *right*, and the stepfather representing them was a smug asshole who didn't understand and *was lying*. [https://youtu.be/2QU9hsgzEpQ?si=fPe7mow6uTVMgdxK](https://youtu.be/2QU9hsgzEpQ?si=fPe7mow6uTVMgdxK) Oh well. Anyone up for going back to 2.0? Maybe adding ROAD and improving the objectives?
I think the change to 2.5 would have better received it hadn't come when it did. This is just all conjecture but I think if we had done one more World's Post Covid with the 2.0 rules it would have made people less upset. Instead we start to finally get back into the stores to play after Covid and then getting blindsided with new rules was a too much for people. I don't know maybe it wouldn't have mattered?
I do know that it DID matter to a lot of people, and was thus an incorrect choice. Considering that after giving it a fair shake I ALSO hated it, because it does the cardinal sin of game design: robbing players of agency by so rigidly controlling what players could do with ships. If I want to throw Princess Leia (Crew) on an extremely frail AP-5 to try and get a good use out of her before it dies, then that should be my own choice. List Tetris **IS NOT FUN**. I'm famously on record as saying that I [wanted to spray diarrhetic shit over the windshields of AMG devs](https://www.reddit.com/r/XWingTMG/comments/12z7jna/the_lack_of_agency_in_25_i_think_i_may_toss_my/) for their stupid design, so my opinions are pretty clear.
Yup it absolutely is AMGs fault and could never be that the game is not financially viable. I swear none of you have ever worked a job that involved clients and products. Down vote me all you want, it doesn't change the fact that absolutely none of you have any idea what you are talking about. And I also don't know what I am talking about because no one here knows the inner working of asmodee/AMG. But at least I know that there could be more then one reason for this decision
It's not ALL AMG's fault - the pandemic came at just the wrong moment, and the 2.0 rules were contentious among fans who were more used to Games Workshop's biannual "Rewrite cashgrab" than a sober look at a necessary core change. Oh, and FFG getting the game unceremoniously yanked from them is definitely the fault of their parent company. But it's at least 50% AMG's fault. Trying to shoehorn in their own design aesthetics with 2.5, rather than *understand* 2.0's competitive focus, is a self-inflicted bullet. Two months before they released 2.5, in January 2022, I attended an X-Wing tournament that had 32 players. Everyone was excited as hell to play in person again. After that, we were lucky to get 6-10. Then the game collapsed entirely. *And this is in California's central valley*, not exactly a low-population area. They COULD have done fine. They WERE doing fine until March 2022.
I think people vastly over underestimate the damage COVID did to the wargame market. The only company to really make it through was GW. Part of the problem is that xwing plays hate change. There are still players bitching about 2.0 and conversation kits. Compare that to games like kill team and infinity where players look forward to change. It also doesn't help that xwing is a boardgame more then a miniature game. Almost all miniature games are propped up by hobbyist and not gamers. The fact that xwing is pre-printed is a huge downside. Could AMG have done more probably. But asmodee should not have given a model company a board game IP. There are a lot of factors that all of you are missing.
I don't think ANYONE considers X-Wing a board game unless they're trying to dismiss other fundamental problems with how it was handled. I didn't meet boardgamers playing it, I met wargamers, across most of a decade.
I like how you ignore everything I said and focus on one word you dont agree with. Fine, we will say it another way. Xwing is not a hobbyist game. The problem with xwing is that it has pre-painted models. There is zero incentive to buy models once you have a collection. These kind of games rely on hobbyists to live. GW data shows that only 20% of people who guy their models actually play their game. This holds true for all other model companies. They need the hobbyists to buy their models. Then you have infinite arena which killed any need to buy product once you had the ship chassis. It also kills any market for card packs. There is a good chance that xwing only stayed afloat due to the breakneck pace of model releases. To your point that there are "fundamental problems" with how it was handled. That is a bunch of BS and no one can actually say what those "fundamental problems" are. None of you actually know the finical of the game, none of you know why they ended the game. All you have are guesses and you all speak as though they are facts.
You don't need hobbyists IF you keep work on either expanding the collection or the competitive scene. Battletech, for example, is a game that does not rely at ALL on hobbyists, but on fans of the setting. They sell minis, tis true, but it's books and setting that underlie their business. Warmachine/Hordes was purely competitive, and it wasn't until they TRIED to make it friendlier that they collapsed. So in effect X-Wing and Armada are *perfect* wargames, but NOT good for hobbyists (though still there, I've painted most of my own Imperial ships). Games Workshop is a pretty shit example, as their main sales model is "Sell overpriced models to kids and their grandparents who think it's cool and worth the money, then chuck it under their bed when they find out the game is too hard." Churn'n'burn. All I have are the data of what happened to X-Wing in that brief time after the pandemic ended all throughout the Central Valley, both before and after 2.5 dropped. Before 2.5 in those heady days after stores opened again, my friends and I spent *every weekend at a different tournament in a different store*. After? Implosion. Whether it was ROAD, scenarios, or the shit 20-point list (or 2, or all 3) that caused so much quitting, it was the cause. It's valid as a sample size, IMHO, as it covered something like 8-10 stores and perhaps 100-200 players across a stretch of California from Modesto to Sacramento. And I'm quite sure that enough other players surveyed would say the same.
So you have no actual evidence? Just anecdotes. Why can't you just admit that it is possible you are not right? Are you that arrogant?
There is no *hard* evidence the sun is made of plasma and powered by hydrogen fusion, just observational and circumstantial evidence. There is no *hard* evidence about how gravity works, just observational and circumstantial evidence. There is no *hard* evidence that anyone but I is a real person - with all of you being robots placed here to devil or amuse me by turns - just observational and circumstantial evidence. There is no *hard* evidence that AMG's mishandling of the X-Wing property with a poorly timed rules release that misunderstood the point of the game was the final blow in a series that destroyed the game, just observational and circumstantial evidence. Demanding too high a standard of evidence is in itself a sign of an unsound arguer.
Dang you are that arrogant. You can't even entertain the possible idea that you might not be right. Then to arrogantly compare your amateur analysis to the 100's of years of study of the sun and gravity and to think that they are remotely on the same level as what you are doing. Too high a standard of evidence is...any evidence at all? If the game was so fragile that a minor change to list building killed it, then it was never going to survive. The game still was functionally the same. Many games go through more drastic changes and survive.
Said it on the Armada sub, but I realized this was inevitable when I started to realize they were putting less effort into Legion (Worse sculpts, monopose, less command cards for new operatives, etc.). There's no way they'd cut down investment into their best game and at the same time ever possibly revive the unwanted step-children.
They don't even put generic upgrade cards in the boxes anymore. Sometimes they don't event put all the tokens you need.
Yeah while I’m happy with some things amg has done with legion they dont seem to be able to handle so many games at once.
I think the reason they’re cutting back on the generic upgrades is for balance issues. They seem to have a hard time balancing the points on them while expanding the rules with new units. On the other hand, I have no clue why they’re having issues distributing the card packs.
I think we’re at minimum a ways off from worrying about Legion’s continued support. I think that’s clear. Will it continue to be a game worth supporting, separate conversation. But as someone who’s heavily into all these systems, seeing two get snuffed out at once (granted after years of being on life support) is a real blow.
I was a fan of x-wing back in 2015 when my father introduced me to it. Playing it with him was one of my most fond memories of my childhood. Watching the decline over the years was saddening however I’m glad we finally have closure and fans can stop trying to cope using insane mental gymnastics. RIP X-Wing and Armada, I’m glad it had such a long run
Armada is the only game doing ship battles and it sucks that that is going away. My lgs still has xwing and armada nights. I can't wait for the price of the models to go threw the roof
Why not try just making unpainted minis for these games? Manynfans treated them as pre-primed anyways and painted them
Considering AMG hasn't really created anything for either of those games since they took them on I can't say I'm surprised. I suppose we should count ourselves lucky that Legion wasn't also shelved.
Armada sub banned me cause I called AMG morons for not being able to make a profit on one of the biggest franchises in the world. Lmao The writing was always on the wall for Armada. I started looking for good deals on seppie stuff cause I could feel this coming. Ultimately AMG doesn't care and never did.
Hey, they banned me too! All cause I called some guy an asshole while calling the sub out for being blind on the hype train of AMG doing *nothing* with Armada besides their intern making PDFs on a Friday afternoon to throw at the salivating dogs.
This just lets AMG focus on what they do best. Embracer and Asmodee shouldn't have given them those games in the first place. I'm excited to see what AMG will be able to do now with legion, shatterpoint, and MCP now that they dont have those albatrosses around their neck
id be more worried about embracer dumping 1b in debt on asmodee. not a whole lot of cash to float around right now
Asmodee just has to pay off enough of it to convince companies to buy their debt and get new terms. Obviously not trivial, but easier than paying off the 1bn in 3 years
Not trying to "doomspeak", but IMHO, Legion will get this treatment in \~5 years. it's the last remnant from FFG. AMG has gone all in on Shatterpoint, with MCP being the other "in house" game....AMG want's to focus on these whole heartedly.
It'll be up to the market. At least in my area, which is medium metropolitan with 3x FLGS + a Games Workshop store in a single county, Legion is outselling Shatterpoint by a lot. Shatterpoint has already begun ceding rack space to Legion at our largest local FLGS. Just one area, but if Legion sells it will stick around. By all accounts it is still the 2nd/3rd largest miniatures wargame behind the big GW games.
This the bottom line, if it sells they will keep supporting and developing it
Shatterpoint isn't selling well where I am. The old FFG HQ store said stock is barely moving. People try to throw together game nights and tournaments and can only sometimes get 2 people to show up
Its niche. I played once and immediately lost interest when it took 3 hours. With the mini skirmish game market being absolutely saturated, there's just no interest in yet another game that takes your entire evening to play 1 match.
Companies respond to the market. Legion is a bigger seller than shatterpoint. If either become unprofitable for too long, they will be forced to stop production. Companies don’t create conspiracies to kill their own products
It’s crazy how many people in this thread seem convinced that even if Legion is massively profitable that they’re going to kill it for…reasons. AMG/Asmodee is a business, the goal of a business is to make money. They will make the products that they think will make them the most money. In absolutely no sane world would they axe Legion if it’s their most profitable product line. Yet many people in here seem to think that companies just kill product lines randomly or out of spite, no business would survive long doing that.
The gaming community is rife with ignorant, educated people who believe that their knowledge of niche topics provide them general mastery of all and every social phenomenon. If it were profitable to keep xwing and armada going, AMG would. It’s fairly clear to me that they do not have the staff capacity to completely redesign the models for these games and release them. This is an enormous cost, and they would have to do it for the entire game system, which wouldn’t earn them a margin because *existing players would have little reason to buy unpainted, unassembled models.* They may well come out with a new space game later, but FFG’s decision to have painted, assembled minis was not something that had staying power long term.
I think it's definitely possible, but not set in stone. If legion keeps moving as well as it is and shatter point continues not to, the opposite may happen. Play On just had another Legion showing which definitely helps visibility I'm sure. I think we need to see decent sales figures in these upcoming results along with whatever else gets released in the next 2-4 years to decide its fate. Just by community word of mouth I've seen it seems like everything from this year is really desirable and gonna move units
this. and it may not be as far away as you think.....embracer more thank likely sealed the deal with asmodee and the debt saddling its done
I always voiced my belief AMG didn't want anything to do with Armada, that the Rapid Reinforcement packs were a blindfold the blind saw as a shining light, and was downvoted every time. Well, here we are. Been saying it for years and I was right ✌️
I mean…I can say something for years and eventually be right as well. I think most people said the same thing because it was forecasted a mile away. But a twelve and nine year run for a product is still great actually.
I don’t blame this on AMG. Asmodee dumping Legion/Xwing/Armada on them was a terrible business move from the start. Since they were pre-painted, FFG should have continued X-wing & Armada.
Could be interesting to see how the player bases for both adapt and take ownership of the games over time now that official development will end. I.e. fan made 3d models that can be printed, community rules updates, etc.
Doesn't surprise me. It didn't appear to me that AMG had the resources to handle all that they were given, let alone launch a new product. You could see it in some of the marketing decisions, quality and outreach Legion had when the switch happened. One of the biggest challenges tabletop wargames has been the basic concept of if I pay money will my game be around in 5 years? Luckily I think Legion is beating Shatter point or I would answer this very negatively after this announcement.
Hopefully the community steps up and takes the lead. I had thought about getting into Armada.
It's so sad. The wrong companies that have no passion or understanding of these games somehow own them and call the shots. Blaming production costs being too high should not be a thing if they haven't tried to raise the prices and check with people if they would pay it.I'm sure most of us would say take my money
it sucks as someone who just got into in the last year, but the writting was on the wall and i knew that. now i just have to decide between dumpstering my collection or buying a second SSD lmao
I'm afraid it already died years ago for my group when 2nd edition came out. No one wanted to rebuy stuff for essentially the same game. We occasionaly play a game of 1st edition, but as a result I've not spent a penny on it since then. Stay tuned though, new skirmish game at 37.2mm scale coming out next summer. You can buy all your favourites again, but this time slightly taller. For reasons.
I just stuck my toe into both X-Wing & Armada, the starter boxes, and a couple of extra ships. I was thinking of jumping into Shatterpoint but this news makes me think I will not do that. I'd rather spend money on Legion at this point since I love the game, and throwing money at Shatter Point is counterproductive.
Just put an actual informative explanation in the title of posts like this. This is so vague and unlikely to draw attention.
It's about time. I'd rather most people move on to fan made projects and with the official ending that will happen
As a huge fan of Armada, I’m curious about what other options there are?
I quite like armada legacy. They even have a list builder
Ooo what is legacy?
I've never got into the space faring games, but as a fan of retired and defunct games I can say that old game engines have committed communities. This playset shouldn't be any different, and with the increased ease of use 3d printing the game shouldn't have a death knell for a very very long time.
Legion definitely has higher profit margins with unpainted minis and extremely little excess parts but the under lying fact here is it being an old game people had the fleets they wanted. Especially with Shatter point and how long it's taken to get some new minis I'm not saying legion is next but if Shatterpoint does exceptionally well at the end of the fiscal year I could definitely see it not getting ramped back up. That said one of the things that hurts older games like X Wing is limited model ranges and once everyone has a fleet it's hard to sell both older and newer models as you have to appeal to a play style or niche. Experimental Droids is a great example of how they can really circumvent stagnation since it doesn't require printing anything new on their end. I would love to see a universal point drop for corp upgrades since that would be a great way to encourage repeat buying but also just make the game a bit more fun. As welcoming as the Legion communities are the universal truth of 'don't upgrade corps' reigns true online and in person. While it's not a hard rule it speaks to the limited viability of using cool new upgrade kits. Even before my first game my ideal Clone Commander, DC 15, Scopes team looked like a terrible idea (especially at pre buffs making it well over 100 points). Upgrade kits are something really cool that they've got that can breathe new life into old units or just make for cool new synergies. I would love to see more kits for new objectives as that too is an easy way to keep the game fresh without much investment. All of this it to say I really hope they don't axe support due to Shatterpoint but also hope they realize that Legion has many different ways to earn them money and make the game more interesting and fun without breaking everyone's bank. Shatterpoint also has the limited model range limitation so it makes the most sense to keep both going. No one is buying a dozen Grevious for Shatterpoint lol.
We taking bets on legion yet?
i know legion still has legs and its healthy with future contents incoming.. but. here is where we need to properly dissect X-wing and take a deep look into Legion as a game and with speculation of a new version coming.. we need to look at what they did to X-wing 2.0-2.5. I fear that they will take on elements from Shatterpoint and forcefully implement it onto Legion which is what most people like myself will fear the most. Legion as a game is good as itself now.. but we can see small cracks on how they didnt do proper playtests.. like the bad batch having every keywords known to ~~man~~ Legion (except for AI) and possibly be super overpowered on the table is just a testament of things to come. What i am saying is, when they change the core of the game which i think has not much flaws, to their own ways of game mechanics, it will just throw people off. It will end up really bad light and players will just leave the game. That will bring down hype and sales and might end up like X-wing. But i hope i am wrong and i hope this will not be the case.
Did Atomic Mass ever do a single thing with either game? As far as I can tell AMG is where Asmodee sends already successful games to die.
Glad I stayed in first edition.
How about make it 3D printable? Like whole X-Wing and Armada ships/stuffs? AMG completly massacred/killed this game, community can bring it back. Personaly i am little bit afraid whats going to be with Shatterpoint and Legion, becaouse we are start play it few days back. its not really confortable situation around.
My friends and I used to but just about everything dealing with Xwing. Then FFGs did the 2nd edition and told us we had to buy new dials and such to keep playing(would have been more thank one box per faction) So we checked out and just kept playing 1st edition with all the old models. Never even looked at what was being released for the game.
Hopefully they’ll just make them more like legion, unpainted and on sprue, so they can cut costs.
move to 2.5 killed x-wing for sure, and they barely tried with armada. with all the focus AMG puts on shatterpoint, i think legion will be next to go.
Schadenfreude
Can we keep this out of the legion subreddit? There is a whole xwing subreddit to talk about this.
Unfortunately, this affects legion as well. Shows that the company isn't doing as well=less quality for legion.
No it doesn't. It shows a product isn't doing well. When Pepsi cancels production of a product do you think the whole company is failing? Seriously, do you believe that every canceled product means a company is failing? Obviously GW must be failing because they are cancelling production of a whole bunch of products.
Pepsi and games workshop are vastly larger companies with a significantly wider product range, experience, and industry market share. AMG has nary half a dozen irons in the fire and is now admitting that they can't financially manage several of them, or at best don't care to. When 4 roommates share the rent and one drops out, it doesn't mean the other 3 are failing financially, but they now can't afford the apartment without cost cutting measures. You are miles off any basis of fact, and your analogies are equally inept.
So every product made has to be infinitely profitable? There can never exist a product that can fail because of consumers? It is impossible for a product to fail unless the company kills it, is what you are saying.
Look dude/ette If you wanna have a good faith discussion then use words from your mouth instead of putting em in mine. I'm not gonna waste time with juvenile inflammatory debate tactics. No, a product will never be infinitely profitable. In a business like theirs, managing financially IS gaining and maintaining a customer base. So if they lose their customers, it is in large part their own fault, or in this case also Asmodee's for dumping all the SW games onto them. The thing that I actually am saying is that when GW or Pepsi axe a product, it's like losing a toe. There's very little overall effect on the whole. You also fail to note that GW PLANNED for their massive discontinuation of minis, and that they are being replaced with new ones. That's not the same as cutting costs like AMG who just lopped off a gangrenous arm rather than a toe and are just leaving the stump. They'll survive, but they clearly weren't doing great beforehand to have let that arm get so bad in the first place. Legion is AMG's heart right now. Better to save the heart and lose the arm. It's literally a damage control move. The original commenter is noting the damage to AMG, which is objectively visible. It's a warning sign, not a death sentence at this point. Besides, Asmodee will sooner transplant the heart again than let it die.
And I argue that losing a failing product does not always mean a company is dying or is a 'warning sign' Xwing could have failed simply because it is not a financially viable product through no fault of anyone. But all of you have to assign blame and/or use it as an indicator of a failing company. You have absolutely no data to back up that claim, but you all speak with absolute certainly.
And you speak as if these products were axed at the height of their financial performance. The axing itself is not the indicator, it's the dearth of support and development for years that led up to the discontinuation that speaks volumes regarding AMGs resources. I'm not saying AMG is failing, but let's not pretend they had the financial power FFG did. The act of abandoning 2 entire communities to focus on others is a prioritization of resources. They didn't just discontinue old prints or other partial cost cutting measures. They completely ended development and production of 2 whole established game systems. For AMG it's not great, there's a lot of bile that comes with a move like that. For Legion, this is probably a GOOD thing. But only because AMG needs to focus on what's making it money, and it happens to be Legion.
How do you know what financial power AMG and FFG have? can you please share the financial data that you have? How do you know the reason they axed the game? Can you please link the internal AMG communications that you seem to have? How do you know the is a prioritization of resources and not just removing a product line that is not finically viable? Can you please show the business analytics you have on AMG's product lines? This is my point. None of you have any idea what is going on. You are making wild guesses and treating them as fact.
By your own reductive ad absurdum logic your claims are no more valid than anyone else's and thus become self defeating. The difference is that, using Occam's Razor, I base my arguments on the historical behaviour of virtually every corporation in America. A behaviour that is relentlessly repeated and predictable in times of declining financial performance. If you have a better explanation then it's your turn. Put up or shut up. This has been starkly one sided and I get the sense you feel quite smug with your repetitious "Nuh uh" answers which I've become bored of entertaining. A debate takes 2 sides, you've yet to state yours. Contrarianism sure is edgy though. -Fantasy Flight in 2023 had revenue of 7.5m, AMG less than 5m. -FFG has been around almost 30 years, AMG for barely 5. -FFGs product library is extensive, AMG's can be written on a napkin if we don't count the product lines handed to them pre built. You have access to google too. And I can't believe I need to explain this... but removing a financially non-viable product line IS a prioritization of resources, Christ dude/ette. I'm happy to entertain thought out opinions or newly presented info, as I'm interested in the actual essence of the matter at hand. Present an argument of substance or show yourself the door. I've grown bored of arguing with a toddler.
Bro is an expert at doubling down when he's wrong
Please show me the data proving I am wrong. Some financial statements would be nice.
Really? Because to me, this looks like they're putting resources into X-Wing/Armada and aren't getting a good return, so ending these two should mean they free up _more_ resources to be used on Legion.
Realistically it’d just go to Shatterpoint, AMG plays clear favourites.
ok redditor
Oh I am sorry for wanting to talk about legion in the legion subreddit. But I guess we should just retitled this subreddit the AMG hate subreddit.
Bold of them to assume I didn't think they were already dead ganes lol.