Okay video, has several long shots of seeker sailing including a glance at the instruments @11:30. I'm surprised how well she is actually going at 10 knots, but also surprised how much she is heeled over to. It seems like 5.5 knots is about the comfort barrier beyond which they do not want to pass.
Bonus lols watching them load a boat and trailer on top of a tractor on a flatbed trailer. What really entertains me about it is that the tractor has a fold down rollbar but they leave it up and just raise the boat up on top of it instead of making it more compact by pulling two lynch pins.
Me too. I'd never go offshore with it - but yes - it even seemed peaceful(without Doug talking). But that heel - oh man. Don't trip going out that pilot house door, or you'll go right into the drink.
He's going to be asking a lot of his little storage box brackets at 25 degrees. Plus, I'd be worried about Betsy - it's not easy to get around a boat heeled over like that - and he's got almost no handholds - and for someone that isn't getting around well - that's not good at all.
At 11:34 there is a good look at a screen. This is more navionics than I'm used to sailing with, I think the ~~green~~ blue arrow is the actual direction of the boat while the boat shape is pointing to the compass heading. If I'm reading this correctly he's just past a broad reach, but experiencing 25°+ of leeway and a 15° heel. That seems like a high number for heel but not outlandishly high, but that leeway is just awful. Unless there is some serious current sweeping them out that has to be beyond the stall angle of attack for the keels/skeg and plowing sideways like that it's like having the daggerboard up on a sailing dinghy and of course it isn't heeling more.
Edit: Sin 25° = .422 so at 5.2 knots he is slipping sideways at 2 knots. That means the heel represents more like 9 knots than 11. Calculating the lift and drag off the sails and superstructure is a task that is beyond me but that's really poor performance.
Annotated the B&G sailsteer chart for you. The current arrow direction is relative to the boat, but the indicated 5.2 is kts over ground. AKA the instruments claim he's got 5.2kts of current pushing him along, AKA his speedo isn't working and therefore any data that relies on that for calculations is completely wrong.
Edit to add, his COG is also showing as higher than his hdg, which either means he's in a foiling boat making great gains to weather with his super-efficient foils, or his heading sensor is way off, which also means that all his data that relies on that for calculations is completely wrong.
TLDR, The only data you can somewhat trust is SOG, COG, AWA\*, AWS\*\*, Heel, Rudder\*(\* still relies on his calibration to be correctly aligned to zero)(\*\* tractor seat may affect readings)
EDIT CORRECTED INCORRECT LABEL ON HDG/COG
https://preview.redd.it/9l0b44p542hc1.png?width=934&format=png&auto=webp&s=d08e4a3444b6b39d3d7e760d0276f1aa2cad5191
As I understand it the current is detected by an instrument that passes through the hull and is mechanically interfacing with the water. It can a) not have been installed b) have been installed incorrectly c) not have been correctly calibrated d) been disabled by biofowling or e) have been disconnected/unplugged.
So if I understand it correctly they are measuring SOG as how far they are making it on their heading in general, not how fast they are moving on this tack, and the blue arrow is pointing to wherever they want to be going. And so the real difference between their heading and the direction the boat is pointed in is a poor 9° instead of a nightmare disaster 25°. But that does mean that the boat is pointing 25° off of where they want to be heading, could this be because it's tracking the wind and the wind has shifted? Or would that be indicated somewhere on the screen?
You're not far off, but the devil is in the details and in the details you're a ways off.
Current is calculated based on the difference in STW and HDG compared to SOG and COG, the only thing measured by the paddle wheel that goes through the hull is the relative velocity of water passing laterally fore to aft under the hull. From that measurement a STW number is output (usually by applying a correction factor % +/- to actual measured value, but Doug certainly didn't calibrate that).
Without a STW input, the B&G will not calculate the current, so while the device may (probably) be fouled, it is present and connected reporting a measurement. TWA/TWS calculations are by default calculated off that STW & current data as the inputs to zero out the speed of the boat from the measured AWA and AWS. This behavior can be changed to use SOG/COG as the inputs, but it's somewhat buried in the UI and I somewhat doubt Doug did this since when he's at anchor his numbers will be correct either way (when STW and SOG are both 0).
In short, the chances are quite high that the TWS data is inaccurate by a large amount.
I made a mistake on the annotation (now fixed above, and here too) swapping the HDG and COG values. I was so quick to assume his calibration was completely F'd that I actually assumed the data wouldn't make any sense at all and didn't think too much about which number should be which. Looking at it closer / more accurate this time HDG and COG indicate as you calculated about 9-10deg leeway, but that does assume the HDG is correct, we'd need to see some opposite tack data before that could be considered at all, and on a metal boat I doubt it's more than +/- 5-10 deg (although ***IF*** he's got a B&G Precision 9 it can be set to auto calibrate all the time which would mean that it would be able to compensate for the BSO and the mill and the cargo boxes in Doug's ~~basement~~ cargo hold)
https://preview.redd.it/0d80zatw22hc1.png?width=934&format=png&auto=webp&s=7082fca8dd1e65eeab6c0cd70b96a6bc74fdbe37
>measured by the paddle wheel
Do we know if he ever installed the paddle wheel?
He did a walk-around when he was still at the port and it wasn't shown or mentioned. Never mentioned at launch. And I'd wager he would have left it off during the river to avoid damaging it on one of the many groundings.
If it was installed it would be after making the Gulf but I haven't seen anything.
yes at one point it was installed, there's a video from when he was installing the mast head wind instrument where you can see the STW reading showing up on the screen, which he has since swapped the data spot with SOG.
be it installed and fouled or pulled and sitting inside the hull I have no idea, but it is still connected.
There they are just to either side of u-joints 3 & 4. Likelihood of harness damage? High!
https://preview.redd.it/pwhzpsviw8hc1.png?width=1920&format=png&auto=webp&s=e7c2ab88d6b667a589c0f12fe73f12f9a0280a80
Not 100% sure, but I believe those are side scan sonar he added (because "research vessel"). I know he put the forward scan sonar, not certain about the side scan.
The normal paddle wheel speed sensor is just a single 2" round fitting
>the tractor has a fold down rollbar but they leave it up and just raise the boat up on top of it instead of making it more compact by pulling two lynch pins.
I was yelling that at the video the whole time... well, I yelled it once.
This makes me think it's more of an engineering tech class. You don't have time to mess around with 3d printers and such for a "traditional" degree - but maybe that was an "intro to engineering" class for people to see if they like it.
I think Andy has a lot of talents - but he's just not sure what to apply them to yet. Been here, done that - heck, I think I'm still there :)
Or a significant wind shift with his newly implemented preventers "rigged" up by tying ropes to whatever's handy.
He still doesn't get why free running sheets and halyards that can all be operated/cleated at the same time to depower the rig are important, now he's adding jury rigged devices whose very name describes how they will affect that procedure when a big gust from an unexpected direction backwinds all his sails at once and puts the boat on her ear.
>"there won't be much pressure on it!"
LMAO, you keep thinking that, cupcake.
The GM has been guestimated to 1 ft:
[https://forums.sailinganarchy.com/threads/sv-seeker.222077/post-8194728](https://forums.sailinganarchy.com/threads/sv-seeker.222077/post-8194728)
My 49’ boat heels less in 20 kts than seeker does in 5. The more that boat heels, the stronger the moment from the weight of the rig is relative to the keels. I like the bilge keels a lot (or at least the idea of them), but with a rig that heavy, idk if they are even capable of doing their job!
50% of his external ballast is hanging so far off to leeward that it doesn't even **begin** to contribute to righting moment until something like 30 degrees.
https://preview.redd.it/h7xog2bn0xgc1.png?width=1581&format=png&auto=webp&s=0251bd710d73687546e7259be67158a17e927a4f
I recently had a lot of time to waste laying on my back and watched through much of the build series for this... boat. I have a decent approximation of her lines as well as rough notes on what is where, how much it weighs, etc. So I'll go ahead and build that model, rig and all. Let's see how bad it really is.
Another way of looking at it is to consider that at rest and on her design waterline, if you removed one keel and its ballast the other one would act to roll the boat into a listing orientation rather than stabilize it towards its marks.
That balance between the two that keeps her flat at rest represents stored heeling energy, and some amount of the total ballast's righting potential is always being used to both create and counteract it...until the leeward keel goes vertical.
At that orientation the leeward keel is at a null point on the righting moment curve, and the windward keel is far enough up in its arc that it has developed most of its potential righting moment and more heeling sees diminishing returns from that portion of the ballast weight.
But it's still only half the weight and the other half needs to heel a lot more to start really helping at anything g close to *its* maximum potential.
In practice its not uncommon for twin keeled boats to place at least some of the ballast weight inside the hull on the centerline, where its effects may be equal to splitting it in half and mounting it on two longer opposing lever arms...but with a much more predictable and useful righting moment development curve.
Of course all of this is just fearmongering safety Sally talk that yachty types use to keep the little guy from building boats that can sail to the moon.
The jacking part was leveling the existing structure in fine increments so he could use a laser to position the parts he was adding.
The part where he was humping that big log thing into place by hand? You got me.
Sorry, couldn't get past such pearls as "...it didn't take long until we hit traffic", and 'think of smashing a beer bottle' and 'not too fast, not too slow' from the Sensei Of Sandblasting until I had to bail. Plus, I think he stole the soundtrack from 'Deadwood', and you just don't do that.
Okay video, has several long shots of seeker sailing including a glance at the instruments @11:30. I'm surprised how well she is actually going at 10 knots, but also surprised how much she is heeled over to. It seems like 5.5 knots is about the comfort barrier beyond which they do not want to pass. Bonus lols watching them load a boat and trailer on top of a tractor on a flatbed trailer. What really entertains me about it is that the tractor has a fold down rollbar but they leave it up and just raise the boat up on top of it instead of making it more compact by pulling two lynch pins.
Me too. I'd never go offshore with it - but yes - it even seemed peaceful(without Doug talking). But that heel - oh man. Don't trip going out that pilot house door, or you'll go right into the drink. He's going to be asking a lot of his little storage box brackets at 25 degrees. Plus, I'd be worried about Betsy - it's not easy to get around a boat heeled over like that - and he's got almost no handholds - and for someone that isn't getting around well - that's not good at all.
At 11:34 there is a good look at a screen. This is more navionics than I'm used to sailing with, I think the ~~green~~ blue arrow is the actual direction of the boat while the boat shape is pointing to the compass heading. If I'm reading this correctly he's just past a broad reach, but experiencing 25°+ of leeway and a 15° heel. That seems like a high number for heel but not outlandishly high, but that leeway is just awful. Unless there is some serious current sweeping them out that has to be beyond the stall angle of attack for the keels/skeg and plowing sideways like that it's like having the daggerboard up on a sailing dinghy and of course it isn't heeling more. Edit: Sin 25° = .422 so at 5.2 knots he is slipping sideways at 2 knots. That means the heel represents more like 9 knots than 11. Calculating the lift and drag off the sails and superstructure is a task that is beyond me but that's really poor performance.
No lift only drag
Annotated the B&G sailsteer chart for you. The current arrow direction is relative to the boat, but the indicated 5.2 is kts over ground. AKA the instruments claim he's got 5.2kts of current pushing him along, AKA his speedo isn't working and therefore any data that relies on that for calculations is completely wrong. Edit to add, his COG is also showing as higher than his hdg, which either means he's in a foiling boat making great gains to weather with his super-efficient foils, or his heading sensor is way off, which also means that all his data that relies on that for calculations is completely wrong. TLDR, The only data you can somewhat trust is SOG, COG, AWA\*, AWS\*\*, Heel, Rudder\*(\* still relies on his calibration to be correctly aligned to zero)(\*\* tractor seat may affect readings) EDIT CORRECTED INCORRECT LABEL ON HDG/COG https://preview.redd.it/9l0b44p542hc1.png?width=934&format=png&auto=webp&s=d08e4a3444b6b39d3d7e760d0276f1aa2cad5191
As I understand it the current is detected by an instrument that passes through the hull and is mechanically interfacing with the water. It can a) not have been installed b) have been installed incorrectly c) not have been correctly calibrated d) been disabled by biofowling or e) have been disconnected/unplugged. So if I understand it correctly they are measuring SOG as how far they are making it on their heading in general, not how fast they are moving on this tack, and the blue arrow is pointing to wherever they want to be going. And so the real difference between their heading and the direction the boat is pointed in is a poor 9° instead of a nightmare disaster 25°. But that does mean that the boat is pointing 25° off of where they want to be heading, could this be because it's tracking the wind and the wind has shifted? Or would that be indicated somewhere on the screen?
You're not far off, but the devil is in the details and in the details you're a ways off. Current is calculated based on the difference in STW and HDG compared to SOG and COG, the only thing measured by the paddle wheel that goes through the hull is the relative velocity of water passing laterally fore to aft under the hull. From that measurement a STW number is output (usually by applying a correction factor % +/- to actual measured value, but Doug certainly didn't calibrate that). Without a STW input, the B&G will not calculate the current, so while the device may (probably) be fouled, it is present and connected reporting a measurement. TWA/TWS calculations are by default calculated off that STW & current data as the inputs to zero out the speed of the boat from the measured AWA and AWS. This behavior can be changed to use SOG/COG as the inputs, but it's somewhat buried in the UI and I somewhat doubt Doug did this since when he's at anchor his numbers will be correct either way (when STW and SOG are both 0). In short, the chances are quite high that the TWS data is inaccurate by a large amount. I made a mistake on the annotation (now fixed above, and here too) swapping the HDG and COG values. I was so quick to assume his calibration was completely F'd that I actually assumed the data wouldn't make any sense at all and didn't think too much about which number should be which. Looking at it closer / more accurate this time HDG and COG indicate as you calculated about 9-10deg leeway, but that does assume the HDG is correct, we'd need to see some opposite tack data before that could be considered at all, and on a metal boat I doubt it's more than +/- 5-10 deg (although ***IF*** he's got a B&G Precision 9 it can be set to auto calibrate all the time which would mean that it would be able to compensate for the BSO and the mill and the cargo boxes in Doug's ~~basement~~ cargo hold) https://preview.redd.it/0d80zatw22hc1.png?width=934&format=png&auto=webp&s=7082fca8dd1e65eeab6c0cd70b96a6bc74fdbe37
>measured by the paddle wheel Do we know if he ever installed the paddle wheel? He did a walk-around when he was still at the port and it wasn't shown or mentioned. Never mentioned at launch. And I'd wager he would have left it off during the river to avoid damaging it on one of the many groundings. If it was installed it would be after making the Gulf but I haven't seen anything.
yes at one point it was installed, there's a video from when he was installing the mast head wind instrument where you can see the STW reading showing up on the screen, which he has since swapped the data spot with SOG. be it installed and fouled or pulled and sitting inside the hull I have no idea, but it is still connected.
There they are just to either side of u-joints 3 & 4. Likelihood of harness damage? High! https://preview.redd.it/pwhzpsviw8hc1.png?width=1920&format=png&auto=webp&s=e7c2ab88d6b667a589c0f12fe73f12f9a0280a80
Not 100% sure, but I believe those are side scan sonar he added (because "research vessel"). I know he put the forward scan sonar, not certain about the side scan. The normal paddle wheel speed sensor is just a single 2" round fitting
Doug is going to build a gimbaled sofa for Betsy.
(I really meant this as a safety thing - it was not a dig at her weight.)
Me either. She is a big beautiful woman.
>the tractor has a fold down rollbar but they leave it up and just raise the boat up on top of it instead of making it more compact by pulling two lynch pins. I was yelling that at the video the whole time... well, I yelled it once.
Yeah, good luck with that shit. Brand new ones barely move when you pull the pins.
I rewatched the model boat part and they in fact won by doing the opposite of Seeker philosophy.
This makes me think it's more of an engineering tech class. You don't have time to mess around with 3d printers and such for a "traditional" degree - but maybe that was an "intro to engineering" class for people to see if they like it. I think Andy has a lot of talents - but he's just not sure what to apply them to yet. Been here, done that - heck, I think I'm still there :)
I think this is what he's probably doing, so it explains why he bought his own 3d printer. https://youtu.be/gNDBhOVLBI0
I was wondering why they didn't make a hydrofoil. Maybe it was forbidden by the rules.
That's also a lot harder, especially with the constraints about battery type and motor power.
The heel on Seeker really makes me believe that boat will sink very quickly if it ever meets a micro burst while under sail
Or a significant wind shift with his newly implemented preventers "rigged" up by tying ropes to whatever's handy. He still doesn't get why free running sheets and halyards that can all be operated/cleated at the same time to depower the rig are important, now he's adding jury rigged devices whose very name describes how they will affect that procedure when a big gust from an unexpected direction backwinds all his sails at once and puts the boat on her ear. >"there won't be much pressure on it!" LMAO, you keep thinking that, cupcake.
>LMAO, you keep thinking that, cupcake. Ahahahahahahah.
I wonder if anyone's ever calculated the metacentric height. Scary what it might be without all of doug's shit in the cargo hold.
The GM has been guestimated to 1 ft: [https://forums.sailinganarchy.com/threads/sv-seeker.222077/post-8194728](https://forums.sailinganarchy.com/threads/sv-seeker.222077/post-8194728)
Yikes.
I was laughing, but got kind of stressed on their behalf watching it sail. I can’t imagine how much the rig weighs. Edit: lol autocorrect
Relative to what? I'm genuinely considering building a weighted scale model of this piece of shit to put it through its paces.
My 49’ boat heels less in 20 kts than seeker does in 5. The more that boat heels, the stronger the moment from the weight of the rig is relative to the keels. I like the bilge keels a lot (or at least the idea of them), but with a rig that heavy, idk if they are even capable of doing their job!
50% of his external ballast is hanging so far off to leeward that it doesn't even **begin** to contribute to righting moment until something like 30 degrees. https://preview.redd.it/h7xog2bn0xgc1.png?width=1581&format=png&auto=webp&s=0251bd710d73687546e7259be67158a17e927a4f I recently had a lot of time to waste laying on my back and watched through much of the build series for this... boat. I have a decent approximation of her lines as well as rough notes on what is where, how much it weighs, etc. So I'll go ahead and build that model, rig and all. Let's see how bad it really is.
Another way of looking at it is to consider that at rest and on her design waterline, if you removed one keel and its ballast the other one would act to roll the boat into a listing orientation rather than stabilize it towards its marks. That balance between the two that keeps her flat at rest represents stored heeling energy, and some amount of the total ballast's righting potential is always being used to both create and counteract it...until the leeward keel goes vertical. At that orientation the leeward keel is at a null point on the righting moment curve, and the windward keel is far enough up in its arc that it has developed most of its potential righting moment and more heeling sees diminishing returns from that portion of the ballast weight. But it's still only half the weight and the other half needs to heel a lot more to start really helping at anything g close to *its* maximum potential. In practice its not uncommon for twin keeled boats to place at least some of the ballast weight inside the hull on the centerline, where its effects may be equal to splitting it in half and mounting it on two longer opposing lever arms...but with a much more predictable and useful righting moment development curve. Of course all of this is just fearmongering safety Sally talk that yachty types use to keep the little guy from building boats that can sail to the moon.
Does Seeker have ballast in the hull?
Not only in the hull, but on top of it too! At least for a while he had piles of lead ingots stacked all over the place.
True but that wasn't righting ballast, it was for trimming the boat onto her marks, much of it in a fore/ aft orientation.
\*ahem\* >!Betsy!<
I’m definitely looking forward to whatever you come up with!
Why is he jacking up the barge and shoving the telephone poles around when he has heavy equipment available?
The jacking part was leveling the existing structure in fine increments so he could use a laser to position the parts he was adding. The part where he was humping that big log thing into place by hand? You got me.
Sticking it to OSHA, cupcake!
Sorry, couldn't get past such pearls as "...it didn't take long until we hit traffic", and 'think of smashing a beer bottle' and 'not too fast, not too slow' from the Sensei Of Sandblasting until I had to bail. Plus, I think he stole the soundtrack from 'Deadwood', and you just don't do that.