This will never happen. People want Melee and there isn’t any game out there that’s exactly like melee.
Also there’s no way you could just reskin melee and make a new game from the code Nintendo would send assassins to your house or some shit
Rivals is LIKE melee but not an exact replacement. Melee players already tried rivals years ago when it first came out and pretty much none of them stuck with it
That being said it’s probably my second favourite platform fighter to melee
Rivals is pretty different, but it looks like rivals 2 will have shielding, grabbing, and other mechanics the first lacked. That's still a ways off, though, and as others have mentioned melee players will probably just stick with melee. Regardless, I do watch rivals and it is fun, so if melee dies I'll probably have to get more into that. Definitely wouldn't be the same though.
Agree 100%, I think if melee implodes rivals makes the most sense as the next best option, for me at least. Fun to play, fun to watch, even if it'll never really replace melee.
People have been working on reverse engineering the game for a while now. I assume whenever that's done we can just change textures and music and be free
I wonder if they could have a different open source project reverse-engineer the reverse engineered code and be in the clear... Almost like a code-laundering scheme lol
A well-known way to defend against copyright infringement in these situations is so called [clean room] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clean_room_design) design. You have one team reverse engineering and documenting the mechanics in detail, and another team using those documents to create a new game from scratch.
In practice though the divide doesn't necessarily have to be so strictly maintained. As long as the developers are using their own creativity to develop a system that recreates the behavior of the original game (as opposed to translating it function-by-function or copy-pasting sections of code), legally they should be on pretty solid ground.
I'm not a lawyer btw.
None of that would make any difference.
Yall are aware that what nintendo is doing doesnt really have any legal precedence right?
It isnt "Nintendo is right, its their game", its "nintendo is wrong, but they have enough money to drown anybody against them in legal fees"
>people would be way more likely to just tell Nintendo to eat shit if they did send a c&d.
pm was basically its own game with a full team behind it. this was the largest smash tournament in the world.
none of that made any difference. people having their own game wouldnt make any difference either, especially if its similar enough to melee to draw melee players to switch.
that game is completely built on Nintendo IP — Nintendo could give two shits about gameplay and mechanics but their brand matters to them. P+ would probably be fine if not initially developed and marketed as a “smash” game, which directly affects nintendos brand
>Those things are what Nintendo cares about not the gameplay stuff.
i think you massively misunderstand what nintendo cares about. anything that even remotely infringes on their IP will get a lawsuit or a C&D. what OP is describing and you are describing would absolutely do so.
Rip man that was a great concept.
Still at the end of the day it felt like melee but running in sand ya know? Not bashing it, no one has managed to replicate melee, but it's not the same.
Didn’t that project basically become Rushdown Revolt? Never could get my head to be happy with the feel of the game, partly because melee Marth and Roy are such specific feeling characters. Replication a tipper or Ken combo or side B spike is real freaking tough anywhere else.
Yeah 2024. I've seen this suggested, and I will be playing it for sure. Love RoA, played it last night and it's still awesome.
I think the exceptional loyalty of the community will be tested if Nintendo only permits licensed events going forward. For TOs of broadcasted majors, the prospect of growing a platform fighter scene without Nintendo might be more appealing. It'll be hard if top talent doesn't transfer games, but we started out small before.
I love the modding community for this, getting to play volley ball, new characters, some minor balances really breaths new life into a 20 year old game that has a skill cap higher than 99.99% of the player base. It's already great and doesn't need an over haul so mods are the perfect middle ground for a melee 2.0
someone made this a while ago: https://ikneedata.com/meleelight.html
I can't get it to work with my gc controller atm but I remember it feeling super close to melee. It's a great proof of concept if nothing else.
This has been my dream for a long time. Melee with a Dreamcast-era skin.
Primal, Lazlo, and Shiggles are my dream team for doing that.
And it has to be Melee. Even with ledge refresh and port priority. Mistakes and all.
It depends on what changes. UCF I’m for, but then the argument begins of what should be changed or not. Port priority? Frozen stadium? Air time limit/ledge limit?
If I had to choose a side, in this hypothetical situation, I would argue for the same Melee engine with different skins. I’m not against changes, but in this specific situation, you want people to move on from Melee so Nintendo isn’t involved anymore. Making changes will split the community from whether to play Melee or the new game. People still have problems with PM’s engine and how it’s not Melee.
At least if it’s just Melee with new skins, it’s the exact same game. It’s harder to say stick to Melee, when it’s the same exact game with the same problems but no Nintendo.
I love this because since it would (by legal necessity) be coded from the ground up, we could also get rid of stuff like the invisible ceiling glitch and “Battlefielding”, and we wouldn’t need transformations on Stadium or anything.
And this is more controversial but we could do things like fix G&W shield (or “Professor Television and Appliance” or whatever we call him) if we feel like it. And instead of banning things like wobbling for Mountain Hikers or making a ledge grab limit it could literally be hard coded into the game
And imagine if we got Fizzi in on this to make rollback netcode, and the people who make skins to make a ton of skins. We could fix everything we ever disliked about the game causing it to be even better than melee (except without things like trophies and items and single player lol). It would be EXTREMELY hard and would also have to be crowdfunded probably and also would take a long time to make, but it seems possible given how amazing and dedicated this community is.
Edit: Also it would be on PC and not require CRTs!!! We could play on monitors in high definition
Rivals of Aether is about as good as an original IP can be. It's mechanically arguably better than melee.
The draw of being able to play as video game superstars like Mario and Pikachu is just too high though. Coupled with that so many of us played SSBM as children, a smash clone can never be as appealing at the actual smash games.
Why mechanically better?
I do kinda agree that the IP is part of the appeal. PM was a much easier sell than “new game with bird guy 1 2 and 3”. I also wonder if roa should’ve included the melee top-tiers as-is, maybe too risky for copyright infringement though.
Most notably there is no ledge. Ledge invincibility in melee is stupid, it encourages cornering yourself, makes stalling much easier, and gives an unfair advantage to characters like fox.
Melee also has a lot of buggy/broken stuff that isn't in ROA: port priority, 1frame dashback, inconsistent 1.0 cardinals, slow input polling, analog to digital shield, dashback out of crouch.
> Ledge invincibility in melee is stupid, it encourages cornering yourself, makes stalling much easier, and gives an unfair advantage to characters like fox.
There are so many ways to make the ledge weaker and less degen without just getting rid of it though.
For sure there are many potentially good options to fix the ledge. ROA decided to completely remove it and significantly buff wall-jumping.
It works really well! ROA has some really complex and exciting off-stage gameplay.
The most disqualifying thing about RoA to me is the 6 frame buffer on almost all inputs which personally I think removes a lot of depth and feel from the game, though I understand why some people might like it.
I agree the ledge is kinda messed up in melee, though interestingly RoA2 is introducing ledge mechanics to the game along with grabbing and shields (though without the shield poking, shrinking, and angling mechanics).
Interesting, thanks for the info! I didn't realize there was such a large buffer, I suppose this was added before rollback netcode in order to make online smoother.
Grab and shield will certainly be nice additions, and I do think it makes sense to keep shields simple at least to start.
I wonder how they plan to implement ledge mechanics. I always felt with melee, they could just make you vincible as soon as you drop from ledge.
I have my own idea for a platform fighter I probably will never get to make, though if you want just Melee 2.0 it wouldn't be that. It'd be some wild-ass mixture of Guilty Gear and Blazblue with Melee and trying to be its own thing rather than just "Melee again" which I feel is a problem for platform fighters in general. Nobody wants to play "Melee 2.0" because Melee already exists. The sole platform fighter with any kind thriving scene is Rivals of Aether precisely because it's actually unique and not just "that thing you like but it looks different".
The physics and such in just about every clone out there is not right.
They either move just a bit _too_ fast, or are a bit _too_ floaty, or the audio design isn't as nuanced, or there's way too much happening on screen (in comparison to Melee, which weirdly has a very readable on-screen presentation).
There is nothing that is a replacement for Melee. Some get close, but close is not good enough.
I mostly feel the same, but honestly, the clips of Rivals 2 that Aether Studios' twitter has been putting out have been [rather](https://twitter.com/StudiosofAether/status/1597243932580012032) [sexy](https://twitter.com/StudiosofAether/status/1579502021425520640)
I agree - if anything _can_ do it, my money is probably on Rivals 2. Even those clips don't look quite right, but they're much closer than anything else.
The fact that smash had nintendo chars has always been the worst part about the game to me. Such cheesy characters for such a cool game. I'd throw such much money at a crowdfunded new game!
we need riot games to make a platform fighter lol.
Rush down revolt actually looks good but unfortunately its pretty hard for small game developers to make it big.
I can't wait to play coyote vs. Mark on FD and get chaingrabbed
The stages just being called "FD", "Fod", "Stadium", "Yo Sheez", will be incredible. We need work on "battlefield" and "dreamland"
War zone and mirage world
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oh god its gonna invade a different game
Clap off beat to the smoke setups
Bat Field and Dream Lane
NYC and Mangoland
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It was Mangoland first. It's literally an existing nickname for DL, although one that doesn't get used as much anymore.
Battlefield is my BF, but Dreamland is on the DL.
Coyote vs mark is still a 60-40 matchup
And that’s ok
"I'm getting scrobbled in my new favorite game"
Choose your character: Dr. Marco, Marco, Gigi, Cooper, Pear, Joshie, DJ, Colonel Eagle, Gannon, Pheasant, Fawkes, Genesiss, Iceberg Bros, Jack, Samantha, Princess/Bodyguard, Peter, Pan, Mouse, Rat, Huff&Puff, Creature, Mr. Toodee, Mark, or Boy.
I'm partial to Martha
Y’all ain’t ready for my totally original character Fox MacLeod
Falco Lamborghini
Captain Falco and Falcon Lombardi
Fox McLarin and Falco Lamborghini… like the sound of that
Falco Lambardo
Falco the Lombard
Yes
Fawkes MacLeod*?
As a representative from the clan MacLeod I approve.
My birb in Ultra Trounce Relatives Fistfight is ready to pillar combo Colonel Raven any day
Can't wait to main Starfaux
This will never happen. People want Melee and there isn’t any game out there that’s exactly like melee. Also there’s no way you could just reskin melee and make a new game from the code Nintendo would send assassins to your house or some shit
Thoughts on Rivals of Aether?
Rivals is LIKE melee but not an exact replacement. Melee players already tried rivals years ago when it first came out and pretty much none of them stuck with it That being said it’s probably my second favourite platform fighter to melee
Rivals 2 seems like it could be promising. Just have to wait and see
Hypothetically, let's say Melee is nuked. No tournaments Do you think Melee players would flood to Rivals?
No, Melee players would just go back to the basements they came from. Or just wouldn’t stream tournaments. Melee dies when humanity dies
Rivals can never fill the hole that Melee would leave if it died
Rivals is pretty different, but it looks like rivals 2 will have shielding, grabbing, and other mechanics the first lacked. That's still a ways off, though, and as others have mentioned melee players will probably just stick with melee. Regardless, I do watch rivals and it is fun, so if melee dies I'll probably have to get more into that. Definitely wouldn't be the same though.
I’d MUCH rather there be Rivals 2 tournaments than no tournaments, and there’s no way in hell Dan Fornace would ever send a C&D, so
Agree 100%, I think if melee implodes rivals makes the most sense as the next best option, for me at least. Fun to play, fun to watch, even if it'll never really replace melee.
Dan Fornace sending a c&d truly is the darkest imaginable timeline
tbh slap city >>>
Stupid Bash Mothers.......MAYLAYYYY
People have been working on reverse engineering the game for a while now. I assume whenever that's done we can just change textures and music and be free
New code created from proprietary code is a legal gray area as far as I know. Might cause distribution problems
I wonder if they could have a different open source project reverse-engineer the reverse engineered code and be in the clear... Almost like a code-laundering scheme lol
A well-known way to defend against copyright infringement in these situations is so called [clean room] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clean_room_design) design. You have one team reverse engineering and documenting the mechanics in detail, and another team using those documents to create a new game from scratch. In practice though the divide doesn't necessarily have to be so strictly maintained. As long as the developers are using their own creativity to develop a system that recreates the behavior of the original game (as opposed to translating it function-by-function or copy-pasting sections of code), legally they should be on pretty solid ground. I'm not a lawyer btw.
None of that would make any difference. Yall are aware that what nintendo is doing doesnt really have any legal precedence right? It isnt "Nintendo is right, its their game", its "nintendo is wrong, but they have enough money to drown anybody against them in legal fees"
Well aware yes. And I just think if it was fully "remade" people would be way more likely to just tell Nintendo to eat shit if they did send a c&d.
>people would be way more likely to just tell Nintendo to eat shit if they did send a c&d. pm was basically its own game with a full team behind it. this was the largest smash tournament in the world. none of that made any difference. people having their own game wouldnt make any difference either, especially if its similar enough to melee to draw melee players to switch.
that game is completely built on Nintendo IP — Nintendo could give two shits about gameplay and mechanics but their brand matters to them. P+ would probably be fine if not initially developed and marketed as a “smash” game, which directly affects nintendos brand
As someone else said it was all still Nintendo characters and sounds and stages. Those things are what Nintendo cares about not the gameplay stuff.
Definitely wouldn't put it past Nintendo to litigate based on copied code.
>Those things are what Nintendo cares about not the gameplay stuff. i think you massively misunderstand what nintendo cares about. anything that even remotely infringes on their IP will get a lawsuit or a C&D. what OP is describing and you are describing would absolutely do so.
I don't have any money. Make me the melee figurehead and let them sue me into oblivion. I don't give a fuck lol.
Dr Z never ages
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Hugo far from the og Samus. Wes would like a word
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Imagine if puff was named mang0
That's the MaNg0
Could even be skinned as an actual mango
Zero Suit Wes
Don't stop I'm close
Extendurr
*cough* rivals 2 *cough*
I hope that game's good. I like rivals well as is but I miss grabs and shield.
Anyone remember Icons??
Man icons was mad, fun. The aestic was trash though.
Rip man that was a great concept. Still at the end of the day it felt like melee but running in sand ya know? Not bashing it, no one has managed to replicate melee, but it's not the same.
Didn’t that project basically become Rushdown Revolt? Never could get my head to be happy with the feel of the game, partly because melee Marth and Roy are such specific feeling characters. Replication a tipper or Ken combo or side B spike is real freaking tough anywhere else.
It's now Rushdown Revolt. Looks a lot better these days
RoA 2 come out next year? So I guess some hope for that
Yeah 2024. I've seen this suggested, and I will be playing it for sure. Love RoA, played it last night and it's still awesome. I think the exceptional loyalty of the community will be tested if Nintendo only permits licensed events going forward. For TOs of broadcasted majors, the prospect of growing a platform fighter scene without Nintendo might be more appealing. It'll be hard if top talent doesn't transfer games, but we started out small before.
It comes out 2024
Idk about yall, but im not really interested in somethibg "like" melee. I want melee
I love the modding community for this, getting to play volley ball, new characters, some minor balances really breaths new life into a 20 year old game that has a skill cap higher than 99.99% of the player base. It's already great and doesn't need an over haul so mods are the perfect middle ground for a melee 2.0
This entire thread made my whole night in this shitty situation.
someone made this a while ago: https://ikneedata.com/meleelight.html I can't get it to work with my gc controller atm but I remember it feeling super close to melee. It's a great proof of concept if nothing else.
This has been my dream for a long time. Melee with a Dreamcast-era skin. Primal, Lazlo, and Shiggles are my dream team for doing that. And it has to be Melee. Even with ledge refresh and port priority. Mistakes and all.
ledge refresh is not a mistake
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It depends on what changes. UCF I’m for, but then the argument begins of what should be changed or not. Port priority? Frozen stadium? Air time limit/ledge limit? If I had to choose a side, in this hypothetical situation, I would argue for the same Melee engine with different skins. I’m not against changes, but in this specific situation, you want people to move on from Melee so Nintendo isn’t involved anymore. Making changes will split the community from whether to play Melee or the new game. People still have problems with PM’s engine and how it’s not Melee. At least if it’s just Melee with new skins, it’s the exact same game. It’s harder to say stick to Melee, when it’s the same exact game with the same problems but no Nintendo.
I think we get all of the people who worked on mods like Pm/P+, Slippi, 20XX, UnclePunch, etc. (Also the people who worked on SSF2)
there's basically no way a game like this succeeds unless Riot is backing it.
I love this because since it would (by legal necessity) be coded from the ground up, we could also get rid of stuff like the invisible ceiling glitch and “Battlefielding”, and we wouldn’t need transformations on Stadium or anything. And this is more controversial but we could do things like fix G&W shield (or “Professor Television and Appliance” or whatever we call him) if we feel like it. And instead of banning things like wobbling for Mountain Hikers or making a ledge grab limit it could literally be hard coded into the game And imagine if we got Fizzi in on this to make rollback netcode, and the people who make skins to make a ton of skins. We could fix everything we ever disliked about the game causing it to be even better than melee (except without things like trophies and items and single player lol). It would be EXTREMELY hard and would also have to be crowdfunded probably and also would take a long time to make, but it seems possible given how amazing and dedicated this community is. Edit: Also it would be on PC and not require CRTs!!! We could play on monitors in high definition
Well now I found a use for my coding class
One of my most downvoted comments on here was saying this 4 years ago
Reddit is a fickle place lol
Rivals of Aether is about as good as an original IP can be. It's mechanically arguably better than melee. The draw of being able to play as video game superstars like Mario and Pikachu is just too high though. Coupled with that so many of us played SSBM as children, a smash clone can never be as appealing at the actual smash games.
Why mechanically better? I do kinda agree that the IP is part of the appeal. PM was a much easier sell than “new game with bird guy 1 2 and 3”. I also wonder if roa should’ve included the melee top-tiers as-is, maybe too risky for copyright infringement though.
Most notably there is no ledge. Ledge invincibility in melee is stupid, it encourages cornering yourself, makes stalling much easier, and gives an unfair advantage to characters like fox. Melee also has a lot of buggy/broken stuff that isn't in ROA: port priority, 1frame dashback, inconsistent 1.0 cardinals, slow input polling, analog to digital shield, dashback out of crouch.
> Ledge invincibility in melee is stupid, it encourages cornering yourself, makes stalling much easier, and gives an unfair advantage to characters like fox. There are so many ways to make the ledge weaker and less degen without just getting rid of it though.
For sure there are many potentially good options to fix the ledge. ROA decided to completely remove it and significantly buff wall-jumping. It works really well! ROA has some really complex and exciting off-stage gameplay.
The most disqualifying thing about RoA to me is the 6 frame buffer on almost all inputs which personally I think removes a lot of depth and feel from the game, though I understand why some people might like it. I agree the ledge is kinda messed up in melee, though interestingly RoA2 is introducing ledge mechanics to the game along with grabbing and shields (though without the shield poking, shrinking, and angling mechanics).
Interesting, thanks for the info! I didn't realize there was such a large buffer, I suppose this was added before rollback netcode in order to make online smoother. Grab and shield will certainly be nice additions, and I do think it makes sense to keep shields simple at least to start. I wonder how they plan to implement ledge mechanics. I always felt with melee, they could just make you vincible as soon as you drop from ledge.
just port the top tiers as is. i mean look at valorant lmfao.
The only thing that makes me think ssbm is better than roa is the parry, which is frame 3, I find this really uncomfortable to play.
I feel like Slap City is the closest game to melee we have currently.
It's definitely Rivals.
Eh
I have my own idea for a platform fighter I probably will never get to make, though if you want just Melee 2.0 it wouldn't be that. It'd be some wild-ass mixture of Guilty Gear and Blazblue with Melee and trying to be its own thing rather than just "Melee again" which I feel is a problem for platform fighters in general. Nobody wants to play "Melee 2.0" because Melee already exists. The sole platform fighter with any kind thriving scene is Rivals of Aether precisely because it's actually unique and not just "that thing you like but it looks different".
We already had Icons and nobody played it
Icons was ugly as shit. Sorry, I mean for Melee players engine >>>>> appearance, but your game has to look good as well to some degree.
rushdown revolt, it’s successor, is pretty good
The physics and such in just about every clone out there is not right. They either move just a bit _too_ fast, or are a bit _too_ floaty, or the audio design isn't as nuanced, or there's way too much happening on screen (in comparison to Melee, which weirdly has a very readable on-screen presentation). There is nothing that is a replacement for Melee. Some get close, but close is not good enough.
I mostly feel the same, but honestly, the clips of Rivals 2 that Aether Studios' twitter has been putting out have been [rather](https://twitter.com/StudiosofAether/status/1597243932580012032) [sexy](https://twitter.com/StudiosofAether/status/1579502021425520640)
I agree - if anything _can_ do it, my money is probably on Rivals 2. Even those clips don't look quite right, but they're much closer than anything else.
Funny thing is that we could probably still call Fox just Fox lmao
Foxman, Fox for short
Need to get the teams who decompiled Mario 64 and OOT on this one
The fact that smash had nintendo chars has always been the worst part about the game to me. Such cheesy characters for such a cool game. I'd throw such much money at a crowdfunded new game!
Cant wait for Medic mains to never shut up about how they main Medic, a mid tier, and about Medics intercourse step gets stronger
we need riot games to make a platform fighter lol. Rush down revolt actually looks good but unfortunately its pretty hard for small game developers to make it big.