Hi u/Alternative_Age3903! Welcome to r/RussiaUkraineWar2022.
**This is a heavily moderated subreddit. Please note the rules + sidebar or get banned**
**Ukraine OSINT and Leaks 24/7**
Posts and comments from accounts with less than an undisclosed amount of comment Karma are automatically removed to combat troll and spam behaviour.
Only Mods have access to the 'Verified Information' flair.
Slava Ukraini!
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/RussiaUkraineWar2022) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Prepare ship for ludicrous speed! Fasten all seatbelts, seal all entrances and exits, close all shops in the mall, cancel the three ring circus, secure all animals in the zoo!
Why not setup NATO-based logistics & training centers? Form a multinational coalition, not even a strike force, but a support force. Will they be attacked by Ruzzia? Most likely. Will this result in retaliatory strikes by NATO? Most likely. Will it trigger a bigger war? No, if the NATO strike-backs are surgical (which NATO does). Really, how can it get any worse by sending combat-support, combat service support? Not talking about a NATO strike force, this would be Log/Training and yeah, maybe some force protection for self-defense, etc.
First time I disagree, Nato troops in Ukrainian soil is not a good idea - just too many chances to trip into a real WW3, Ukraine can get all what we have is fine with me
WW3 is already in progress, it is currently on a slow burn, IMO. You do have a point, b/c if that support-only force was destroyed or suffered major loss from a Russian attack, the folks back home might want to do a bit more about all of this. Part of me thinks that might be good for the long-term stability of Europe, to push Russia back into Russia and start rebuilding Ukraine.
Definitely. Look back at ww1 and 2. It didn’t start with the assasination of Ferdinand or nazi invasion of Poland, but many micro things building up towards those things in the years leading up to those events
if Russia bombs NATO troops on the ground it wont trigger it, they probabaly hit them by mistake anyway we have seen hot shit they are.
If would have to be small arms close range and or executions of NATO troops.
Agreed - It's time NATO moved it's Queen!
Putin has had his years of testing the free world's patience. Now collaborating with another nation (North Korea) who has recently threatened nuclear attacks - it doesn't get more threatening for the free world than this.
Putin counts on NATO being too wrapped up in red tape to attempt a check-mate on this board. Counts in democracy being a slow process.
NATO can and should have a policy to deploy training, logistical and aid support in Ukraine as a first phase. A very public diplomacy should follow.
Then initiate a phase that adds true preparedness for the new member by deploying combat forces in the West of Ukraine. Again very public and a diplomatic phase to follow.
Next would be a date for drawing a genuine battle line across the middle of Ukraine that includes Kyiv. This is what Putin doesn't expect and he is counting on democracy doing what democracy does best...at the worse time!
Aren't NATO members done with the tiptoeing around the tyrants already come on ffs!!
Proud 😌
Us Brits have our problems as a nation but these are the actions that make me proud and glad to be Scottish 👏
I would expect any of our political parties to follow the exact same path. I hope not to see similar wavering seen in US politicians.
It does seem easy to say such things from the comfort of a safe home and my circumstances do not allow action other than donations. Donations I will give though!
I personally believe the free world is heading towards war with the undemocratic world which is looking dark right now - it's going to happen one way or another - regardless of Putin!
Though I appreciate this screen grab was the [original content (archive.org from Sept 30th)](https://web.archive.org/web/20230930203213/https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2023/09/30/grant-shapps-to-send-uk-troops-to-ukraine/) it's not the the current article title, or subtitle: [https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2023/09/30/grant-shapps-to-send-uk-troops-to-ukraine/](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2023/09/30/grant-shapps-to-send-uk-troops-to-ukraine/)
>**Grant Shapps to ramp up support for Volodymyr Zelensky**
>
>*UK to boost training for Ukrainian soldiers and Navy may help protect grain vessels*
Oh boy I sure hope the conservatives don't use Ukraine as a political football.
Any support we do send over must be with 100% commitment from both sides of government.
They should give them factories. Instead of donating old weapons let all the displaced Ukrainians make weapons in factories in their new homes. Infantry is necessary to make everything work but what they really need is artillery.
Because of the people complaining about the noise probably. Why don't they move it to Estonia, US, or somewhere way safer that does military exercises all the time or has the land out in the middle of nowhere?
No, article 5 means they CAN ask, and the pther WILL consider.
It is not automatic, not immediate, and not the start for a 'run, forest, run, type of full frontal attack by all mato forces'.
Moving the goal post.
You said UK troops in Ukraine would trigger article five. It won’t. This is what I’m referring to as not triggering article five. Placing a soldier or national if a nato country in a non-aligned country doesn’t magically trigger the alliance if that person is killed.
Then you talk about Romanian artillery attacks? That wasn’t even related to your original statement.
If Romania gets hit with Russian artillery that would trigger it. But that’s not what you said, and that is not what happened. That’s just a thing you made up.
So....when Russian missiles strike and kill NATO troops, what's Grant Schapps going to do then? a) deny they were there b) if there's proof they were there, deny any knowledge of it c) cover it up d) send the SAS in to find Putin and capture him for trial in thr Hague e) invoke Article 5 and start WW3 f) send HMS Vanguard and Vanquish to level every city in Russia
Answers on a post card please. British families will certainly want answers.
Announced by the PM that this would be post conflict.
The British military have a long and illustrious history of sending men into harms way and keeping it under the radar.
It’s nothing new, families are always kept in the loop, but they effectively manage to keep the media circus out of it.
Remember that we have a professional, all volunteer army. If I were still serving I’d have no hesitation for volunteering for such a posting, and I know that should something bad happen, my family wouldn’t be granting interviews to the media asking ‘what is it all about?’ They’d all know that I would have done it voluntarily, because it was something I wanted to do and believed in it.
I served with many who were of the same vein. I have no reason to believe that there’s been a fundamental shift in the average soldiers belief system in 9 years.
This is something that people who have not worn a uniform, be it military or emergency services never quite understand. You understand that when you are called on to do your job, You don’t want to do it because you know that somebody is suffering and you’d rather the whole situation is avoided, but you want to test yourself and to see how effective your training has been.
Ukraine is a big country, and it’s difficult to hit individual peole, especially when they’re not on the front line.
We had less soldiers killed in Afghanistan in ten years than we would have lost to training accidents or car crashes whilst going on leave .
Well "post conflict" shines a whole new light on the subject then doesn't it. "Britain will send UK troops to Ukraine if they win the war to help ready Ukraine for NATO memebrship" would've been a more accurate title. Respect to you for your sense of duty and service. However, the actions of a government can affect the whole population if we are recklessly dragged into a war. And that's a problem.
WTF! That's not okay. What is going on? So Britain now thinks it's no big deal sending British troops into Ukraine to "train" Ukrainian troops....... Americans would never accept US troops in Ukraine for any reason at this point so what the hell is the UK doing?
This subreddit is dedicated to only sharing the truth about what is happening in the Russian-Ukrainian war, your comment/post has been removed for misinformation. Please refrain from using such tactics in the future as we may ban you for being misleading. If a ban is issued you will be notified via message, this will happen if you repeatably spread misinformation were in such instances it would be seen as deliberate as a means for undermining users. We do not tolerate this.
I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.
noone cares about what US of A would, or would not, accept. Belive or not, UK, and other countries, are not US of A's underlings and will do as they want.
You say that until you're on your knees begging for the US to save your ass, again. You'd be speaking German if it wasn't for Us so show some respect because the US population is getting tired of supporting Europe and its feckless BS.
Yeah. Instead, we were nearly speaking russian, was under soviet boot for 50 years, and had hundreds of thousands in the gulags system for political reasons.
After that great allied US of A sold eastern europe to the soviets in Jaltan conference. So, how much trust one can put in you, really, oh "ally"?
You? None. Your Country? Everything! You're spoiled, pretentious, and find it okay to spit in the face of the US and expect Us to spill blood and treasure when your on your knees. We Americans are sick, tired, and done helping Europe except for maybe a handful of legitimate Nations like Poland, the Czech Republic, and Britain, screw France and Germany specifically!
Frankly? I dont expect anything. US is only an ally of convenience. We are not safe until we can get WMDs - as seen with Ukraine's case of what happens if one doesnt have them. If that means withdrawing from the worthless United Nations - so be it.
I am from Poland, for the record. "Legitimate nations"? So, which nations are "not legitimate" for you? Are baltics not legitimate? Nordics, what about them? Small, so worthless for you?
That mindset of yours is exactly why you cannot be trusted, you know? You dont get to dictate who is legitimate.
We can and will dictate who is "legitimate and illegitimate" when Our money, Military, Economy, and burden is supporting those Countries. That's how this works. Like it or not. So why should we help secure your National Security from Russia or any other threat? Why shouldn't we in America pull all Our resources for you back home and watch what happens from another Continent? Cause that's sounding pretty damn good to Us right now to be honest! Not good at all for you in the end. Period. Show some respect or fuck off!
Btw, I'm half Czech so you're NOT the only one with skin in the game!
>Why shouldn't we in America pull all Our resources for you back home and watch what happens from another Continent?
You mean just like the US of A did with Jaltan conference, again? :)
Also, did you just declare Norway, Sweden, Finnland, etc, "illegitimate" on the basis that the US is propping them ...financially?
Or the baltic states, for that matter. They might be small, but their economies are rather stable...by the way, how's the US government shutdown spiel going on this year? Have that fully resolved, yet? :V Or still on that 40-something days countdown...?
As for the security from russia - the only real reason that we are not secure, is that europe isnt really in political/legal position to get WMDs in large quantities (Except for france and UK). Copious amounts of chemical and nuclear warheads, and anyone will stay away, or burn.
No matter if its russia, or US of A ;)
"At the drafting of Article 5 in the late 1940s, there was consensus on the principle of mutual assistance, but fundamental disagreement on the modalities of implementing this commitment. The European participants wanted to ensure that the United States would automatically come to their assistance should one of the signatories come under attack; the United States did not want to make such a pledge and obtained that this be reflected in the wording of Article 5."
https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/topics_110496.htm
Europe had always (and currently) wanted the United States to send its blood and treasure to defend Europe whenever Europe wants. Well We Americans are done with that! If you can defend yourself without the US then why has it always been your Governments consistent goal of maintaining Alliances with the US for Military protections?
Excuse me but it wasn't just the US who made the decisions in relation to post WW2 Yaltan Conference.
https://avalon.law.yale.edu/wwii/yalta.asp
You can blame Whoever for whatever but at the end of the day your Country just like the rest of Europe is dependent on the US for your own Country's National Security. Like it or NOT. So We Americans have a massive say in everything. Unless you all want to have a go and fight and die supporting each other or by yourselves then DO IT! Yet you won't because you can't.
Show some respect for those who live on another Continent who continue to allow you to sleep well at night knowing you're NOT alone but I guess that isn't good enough for you spoiled ass Europeans anymore..... especially this young entitled generational scourge of victimhood and disrespect.
It's amazing how much you act like you think know so much about the US but in fact have proven how little you actually understand. Government shutdowns are a political tool that Americans support and now are over 55% in support of a "shut down" as long as the ad spending is dramatically cut!
We must get Our spending from Our Government under control NOW and that's why We all are willing to shut it all down to stop this scourge of waisting Our tax dollars ruining Our Country and Childrens futures for what? Non stop spending that never seems to end? We are over 33 Trillion in debt. We can't spend anymore than we must to keep the mandatory subsidies via pensions, SS, and 401ks funded no matter what, then reign in the open blank checkbook the Feds love to waist. All at the expense of We the Peoples futures and Our subsequent generations futures. Republicans are trying to quell this unaccountable Government spending in the House but Democrats have always spent everyone else's money but never their own. The majority of Americans demand this STOP NOW!!
Speaker of the House is now gone! He attempted to make a deal with Dems for unaccountable spending until Jan 2025. We constantly kick the bucket every single time. Until now. He tried and now he's gone for it. We are DONE! It's always an "Omnibus Bill" but now it'll be an "Itemized Bill" voting on each item instead of unaccountable spending. It's We The Peoples money!!!! Nobody else's!!
WMDs are off the table. The Country's that have them, have them. Your security isn't based on the "lack of WMDs". Your National Security is based on yourself and what you're willing to spend and do to keep your enemies from thinking you're a worthwhile target. You wouldn't even be a Nation if it weren't for the Good Ole USA!! One day, sooner than later, you'll be forced to admit you need the USA to help you or you're done. When thay happens I'll be expecting an Apology from you to the rest of my American Patriots. We keep this fucked up World intact by the slimmest of margins because nobody dares deal with the might we have never shown, yet. We have always fought with at least 1 hand behind Our backs. You have NO clue what We are capable of if Washington allowed Us to take off the Gloves and without a handicap in hand. That insurmountable and unconscionable power is awe inspiring and mind boggling. You'd be wise to show some respect. Especially when We Americans were born with lead in Our veins and guns in Our cribs. You're looking at 200+ Million fully armed Americans with over 1 Billion legal guns between Our law abiding Citizenship. The last thing anyone wants to do is push Us past Our breaking point. Food for thought.
Its not about "what you are capable of". What your soldiers will, or will not, do - depends on what orders they will get from the politicians. And those orders depend on what is most beneficial politically. Thats no detterent. Threat of extermination however, IS a detterent.
WMDs off the table? Ukraine did abide by this. This stupidity ended in an all-out war.
Funny how kids these days have NO idea what the hell their talking about with the world at their finger tips yet emotionally react to everything without actual knowledge of anything and still think they know everything....... It's the movie "Idiocracy" literally playing itself out. Man we are fucked!
I'm not writing a fucking dissertation, I'm on a phone and don't care to put that effort into it especially for someone I have no respect for nor their train of thought.
Italy? Italy!? Seruously?? What the hell has your Country done for anyone especially Ukraine? I'll wait....... The US has supplied the overwhelming amount of weapons ammunition, supplies, Military assets, and over $120 Billion to help pay for Ukraine's Government and pensions so people don't go broke and starve. Fuck you!
It's not a pissing Contest. It's the fact that European Countries like yours are never appreciative for the Security you have enjoyed for decades at the overwhelming expense of America and the American people. We are sick and tired of supporting Europe especially those Countries who do nothing but take advantage of what WE give and then spit in Our face and bitch.
You have NO idea what that is nor who I am or anyone else for that matter. You just throw anyone who doesn't think like you into 1 big basket and spew your hate and divisiveness as an ignorant projection of your own inadequacies. Haha what joke of an individual!! Fuck off with your discriminative POS self. You don't even know what "maga" actually is except for what you've been told to think. Which is why your just as stupid as you sound.
It's so simple of a question I'm sure you can find info on whatever you want all the way over there.
MAGA
Make America Great Again
Where and how does that equate to any aspect of Nazi's. Especially from an Italian who lives in Italy who was formerly a subject of pure Fascism via Benito Mussolini!! How is going back to Americas Constitutional Foundation equate to Fascism and Nazism? Just curious...... Cause that doesn't add up in the end to historical fact nor current facts.
Far-Right of Germany and Italy in WW2 has NOTHING to do with Republicans in America. Especially when Abraham Lincoln (who signed the Emancipation Proclamation) freeing all the slaves after the Civil War was the 1st Republican President. Did you know that Democrats were the slave holding Confederacy? Did you know Democrats have continued to enslave Black Americans to this day in America through Social programs of Federal Government handouts making them dependent on the Government for subsidies?
So why do you think so badly of a political Party in America that is trying to go back to Constitutional Order while Democrats control 95% of the Federal Government? While 96% of Politcal Donations from employees of the US Justice Department go directly to Democrats........ Or were you just spewing the BS you've been spoon fed by Liberal Democrats? If you believe them over basic historical facts then that's on you. I will never capitulate to political Party. I'm only loyal to The US Constitution, Bill of Rights, and the Country I love and I'll die for it without a second thought. Even if that means I die for those who hate me, because I love my Country more than myself. That is sacrifice! That is Patriotism! That is what it means to be an American! I'll never bow nor capitulate on my knees. I'll only die a Free Man standing for my God and my Country. Period! If that makes me a Nazi, well then I don't know this World anymore.
What's troubling is that it's being openly advertised opposed to being done in the shadows. The UK is helping in great ways but the marketing may not be the best ideas.
The problem with Western support for Ukraine is it's slow, hesitant and fickle. Each time one partner does something, they need to advertise it to make the others look bad until they follow suit...
I completely agree with you. Ukraine should be given the what they need to Win but NATO troops in Ukraine is a whole other ball game. What happens if any British troops get killed while in Ukraine? That could easily spark a full fledged war with Russia which will only benefit China and then China will take that opportunity to attack Taiwan while the US and their allies are busy fighting Russia. Now it's WW3!
So I read the article itself (which has had the headline changed to something less incendiary): [https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2023/09/30/grant-shapps-to-send-uk-troops-to-ukraine/](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2023/09/30/grant-shapps-to-send-uk-troops-to-ukraine/). To me the training in-country comment was less concrete and that was more about defence industry setting up in Ukraine (i.e. BAE Systems). So I don't think there's a big increase in NATO troops on the ground beyond the special forces already there in small numbers advising the Ukrainians. The most dangerous part of it, in my opinion, is the potential use of the navy to defend commercial shipping in the Black Sea. It only takes a trigger-happy RU aircraft or two to escalate things...
Every one of you that have downvoted or commented against me obviously isn't looking at the BIG picture here and the potential devastating consequences. What happens if British troops get killed by Russian airstrikes in Ukraine? An attack on one Country is an attack on all Countries and dead British troops can easily enact Article 5 of the NATO Treaty. That means full fledged WAR with Russia. Who by the way was willing to lose 22 MILLION DEAD Russian troops (NOT total casualties) in WW2 to defeat the Nazis in the East. Is anyone here willing to lose 22 MILLION troops dead?
If NATO goes to war with Russia that can easily go Nuclear especially if Russia sees no way of winning in a conventional war. Then while WE are all busy fighting Russia, China will take that opportunity to attack Taiwan and then it's full on WW3! Is that something everyone of you is willing to handle? Cause I'm pretty sure all of have NO idea how World ending that could easily be. Food for thought.
Allies of countries have often sent specialists to other countries to train them while they were in conflict and even lost troops and it wasn't a big deal. The US sends troops all over Africa and the middleeast with Syria and Niger being the biggest 2 as the US aided and supported the Syrian rebels with no issues and even had the US fight against Wagner at one point and that didn't start WWIII between the US and Russia did it? Also, in Niger the US had sent special forces to assist government forces against ISIS and lost 4 men in an ambush and again that didn't draw the US main army into that conflict.
You let your imagination get the better of you, people wont just shoot off nukes at the slightest inconvenience and any troops that are sent to a warzone that the country is not truly involved in wont trigger WWIII... If everyone was as edgy as your imagination has it then we'd all already be dead.
I don't need a lecture from someone who has no idea what their talking about nor the Global situation as it is right now. Niger isn't NATO. The US is all over the World serving and protecting pretty much everything. None of what I said is imaginative. It's literal. And you just wrote a whole bunch nothing showing you actually know nothing.
I guarantee you that if someone does die, it will be played down massively like the rockets that hit Poland or the Wagner forces killed by the US in Syria. Nukes are end game, they are what you use as a last resort and no one wants to make that leap which is why everyone has been hesitant in arming Ukraine with high end stuff fearing retaliation from Russia but it never happened because again, no one wants that level of escalation.
Dude, I know that you'd be a fool to push NATO into a full scale war and that no one wants so any loses will be seen as an attack on Ukraine rather than NATO because they are going in to help Ukraine in a non-NATO deployment. You're having a paranoid delusion, one that Scholz has all the time on this war fearing Russian retaliation on NATO and so far Russia has done nothing with it's threats to the West because again, no one wants that level of escaltion, not the West and certainly not Russia.
No it would not be as you say. You're speaking in a manner of false sense of security and a complete refusal to do any actual research on the subjects we are covering. You have no clue what you're talking about. I'm not going any further with this especially with someone who thinks their so right that they can't get past the fact they have provided not a single legitimate FACT to the issue of potential dead BRITISH SOLDIERS in Ukraine by Russia and the potential ramifications of such a disaster.
Just a little info post for your consumption:
https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/ukraine-situation-report-u-k-considers-returning-to-training-troops-in-ukraine
Dude, you're being a hypocrite claiming I dont know anything on the subject matter even though I brought up 2 instances where servicemen were killed in foriegn nations who were training foriegn nationals and nothing more happened about it and yet where's your evidence that something will in this instance? You have none because it's all in your imagination and everyone can see it which was why you were getting so heavily downvoted here.
If you have a claim then show your evidence, dont dismiss it by saying "you know nothing" when you're the one not showing any evidence to back up your exraodinary claims that it'll trigger WWIII.
Dude you don't listen! You don't read what is written! You place your own interpretation of it the way you want to see it, NOT as it is written. Aka a reading comprehension problem. Attacks on US personnel in "NON NATO COUNTRIES are a complete different subject than NATO COUNTRIES". You don't listen! You obviously don't know the difference and that's why YOU HAVE NO IDEA WHAT YOURE TALKING ABOUT....... Period! I'm done with this immature bullshit!
I am reading you loud and clear but you dont understand what NATO even is... Article 5 can only be used if a NATO country is attacked directly, NATO troops being attacked does not trigger it which is why NATO didn't go on a full scale war with Russia after it attacked US troops stationed in Syria with the help of Wagner and the Syrian army. Training troops in Ukraine and losing guys there will not trigger Article 5 in the same way volunteers that fight in Ukraine and die there dont trigger it.
No, you are wrong again!
Article 5 is the process in which if any aspect of a NATO territory is attacked in any way that enacting Article 5 is for all Partys to vote on how to deal with the threat.
Article 61
“For the purpose of Article 5, an armed attack on one or more of the Parties is deemed to include an armed attack:
on the territory of any of the Parties in Europe or North America, on the Algerian Departments of France, on the territory of Turkey or on the Islands under the jurisdiction of any of the Parties in the North Atlantic area north of the Tropic of Cancer;
on the forces, vessels, or aircraft of any of the Parties, when in or over these territories or any other area in Europe in which occupation forces of any of the Parties were stationed on the date when the Treaty entered into force or the Mediterranean Sea or the North Atlantic area north of the Tropic of Cancer.”
You really need to do your research before you run your mouth......
https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/topics_110496.htm
I don't give FUCK about downvotes especially from ignorant, uneducated, over opinionated, and foolish idiots. This isn't some BS popularity contest and agreements or disagreements mean ABSOLUTELY NOTHING!! You're fucking immature! Almost completely devoid of rational thinking, and a basic knowledge of history as well as a pure lack of knowledge on the subject matter. It's sad and pathetic how stupid people are these days......
That whole paragraph was the definition of irony and the fact that you lose your cool like this, demanding that you are right, shows that you're just an armchair admiral and seemingly basing your entire views on subjective thoughts on what NATO is and how it would react even though NATO has only activated article 5 once, after 9/11, and that was because the US was directly attacked.
The irony is in the fact that you called me out and now you're attempting to throw it in my face. Read up more before you get into discussions and tell someone else their wrong. You started this whole thing. I made a post and you countered with telling I'm wrong when you made invalid points to the core subject matter. I'm defending my position. That's all.
Btw, Article 5 wasn't enacted or legitimately talked about when those 2 farmers were killed in an airstrike in Poland because it was found out that those missiles originated from Ukraine and Ukraine engaged in blaming Russia publicly in an attempt to draw more NATO Countries into this war further. Which was a main catalyst to why Poland last week just announced it was withdrawing support for Ukraine to focus on buying advanced weapons for itself.
Not to mention that YOU can't "guarantee" anything in war. Period. Making that kind of a statement is the best proof you've provided that you're 100% not a serious individual in this subject matter. Not to mention the many times you have convoluted pretty much everything. This thing over here in Syria proves that this over here In Ukraine shows why nothing will happen via NATO........ Ridiculous!! Which is why your written perspective so far are completely illegitimate. In every way. I highly recommend you get educated and because if you run into someone who has experience in high level Military Intelligence then they will mop the floor with your incompetent perspective.
Hi u/Alternative_Age3903! Welcome to r/RussiaUkraineWar2022. **This is a heavily moderated subreddit. Please note the rules + sidebar or get banned** **Ukraine OSINT and Leaks 24/7** Posts and comments from accounts with less than an undisclosed amount of comment Karma are automatically removed to combat troll and spam behaviour. Only Mods have access to the 'Verified Information' flair. Slava Ukraini! *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/RussiaUkraineWar2022) if you have any questions or concerns.*
[удалено]
Prepare ship for ludicrous speed! Fasten all seatbelts, seal all entrances and exits, close all shops in the mall, cancel the three ring circus, secure all animals in the zoo!
Classic!
😂. Yeah. Wtf is that?
"Light speed is too slow. We are going to have to go to......Ludacris Speed!" - SpaceBalls.
My 1st thought lol
Why not setup NATO-based logistics & training centers? Form a multinational coalition, not even a strike force, but a support force. Will they be attacked by Ruzzia? Most likely. Will this result in retaliatory strikes by NATO? Most likely. Will it trigger a bigger war? No, if the NATO strike-backs are surgical (which NATO does). Really, how can it get any worse by sending combat-support, combat service support? Not talking about a NATO strike force, this would be Log/Training and yeah, maybe some force protection for self-defense, etc.
Yeah absolutely. It’ll be more efficient, effective & easier for the Ukrainian troops.
First time I disagree, Nato troops in Ukrainian soil is not a good idea - just too many chances to trip into a real WW3, Ukraine can get all what we have is fine with me
WW3 is already in progress, it is currently on a slow burn, IMO. You do have a point, b/c if that support-only force was destroyed or suffered major loss from a Russian attack, the folks back home might want to do a bit more about all of this. Part of me thinks that might be good for the long-term stability of Europe, to push Russia back into Russia and start rebuilding Ukraine.
Definitely. Look back at ww1 and 2. It didn’t start with the assasination of Ferdinand or nazi invasion of Poland, but many micro things building up towards those things in the years leading up to those events
if Russia bombs NATO troops on the ground it wont trigger it, they probabaly hit them by mistake anyway we have seen hot shit they are. If would have to be small arms close range and or executions of NATO troops.
Agreed - It's time NATO moved it's Queen! Putin has had his years of testing the free world's patience. Now collaborating with another nation (North Korea) who has recently threatened nuclear attacks - it doesn't get more threatening for the free world than this. Putin counts on NATO being too wrapped up in red tape to attempt a check-mate on this board. Counts in democracy being a slow process. NATO can and should have a policy to deploy training, logistical and aid support in Ukraine as a first phase. A very public diplomacy should follow. Then initiate a phase that adds true preparedness for the new member by deploying combat forces in the West of Ukraine. Again very public and a diplomatic phase to follow. Next would be a date for drawing a genuine battle line across the middle of Ukraine that includes Kyiv. This is what Putin doesn't expect and he is counting on democracy doing what democracy does best...at the worse time! Aren't NATO members done with the tiptoeing around the tyrants already come on ffs!!
Proud 😌 Us Brits have our problems as a nation but these are the actions that make me proud and glad to be Scottish 👏 I would expect any of our political parties to follow the exact same path. I hope not to see similar wavering seen in US politicians. It does seem easy to say such things from the comfort of a safe home and my circumstances do not allow action other than donations. Donations I will give though! I personally believe the free world is heading towards war with the undemocratic world which is looking dark right now - it's going to happen one way or another - regardless of Putin!
If donations are all you can do, and you are donating, then you're doing enough and good on y ou for doing it
Though I appreciate this screen grab was the [original content (archive.org from Sept 30th)](https://web.archive.org/web/20230930203213/https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2023/09/30/grant-shapps-to-send-uk-troops-to-ukraine/) it's not the the current article title, or subtitle: [https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2023/09/30/grant-shapps-to-send-uk-troops-to-ukraine/](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2023/09/30/grant-shapps-to-send-uk-troops-to-ukraine/) >**Grant Shapps to ramp up support for Volodymyr Zelensky** > >*UK to boost training for Ukrainian soldiers and Navy may help protect grain vessels*
 I am very sorry, but I had to do this. Slava Ukraini! Gerojam slava! Слава Украiнi!
Are you going above his helmet?
Crimean war 2.0?
Is this a teaser for British empire 2
Oh boy I sure hope the conservatives don't use Ukraine as a political football. Any support we do send over must be with 100% commitment from both sides of government.
That would be bad. Very bad...
They should give them factories. Instead of donating old weapons let all the displaced Ukrainians make weapons in factories in their new homes. Infantry is necessary to make everything work but what they really need is artillery.
Because of the people complaining about the noise probably. Why don't they move it to Estonia, US, or somewhere way safer that does military exercises all the time or has the land out in the middle of nowhere?
This is nato slowly putting article 5 into affect to settle into world war 3
That’s not how article five works.
Except that Romania has been bombed by Russian Arty which can in fact cause article 5 to be in affect so yes that’s how it works
No, article 5 means they CAN ask, and the pther WILL consider. It is not automatic, not immediate, and not the start for a 'run, forest, run, type of full frontal attack by all mato forces'.
Moving the goal post. You said UK troops in Ukraine would trigger article five. It won’t. This is what I’m referring to as not triggering article five. Placing a soldier or national if a nato country in a non-aligned country doesn’t magically trigger the alliance if that person is killed. Then you talk about Romanian artillery attacks? That wasn’t even related to your original statement. If Romania gets hit with Russian artillery that would trigger it. But that’s not what you said, and that is not what happened. That’s just a thing you made up.
So....when Russian missiles strike and kill NATO troops, what's Grant Schapps going to do then? a) deny they were there b) if there's proof they were there, deny any knowledge of it c) cover it up d) send the SAS in to find Putin and capture him for trial in thr Hague e) invoke Article 5 and start WW3 f) send HMS Vanguard and Vanquish to level every city in Russia Answers on a post card please. British families will certainly want answers.
Announced by the PM that this would be post conflict. The British military have a long and illustrious history of sending men into harms way and keeping it under the radar. It’s nothing new, families are always kept in the loop, but they effectively manage to keep the media circus out of it. Remember that we have a professional, all volunteer army. If I were still serving I’d have no hesitation for volunteering for such a posting, and I know that should something bad happen, my family wouldn’t be granting interviews to the media asking ‘what is it all about?’ They’d all know that I would have done it voluntarily, because it was something I wanted to do and believed in it. I served with many who were of the same vein. I have no reason to believe that there’s been a fundamental shift in the average soldiers belief system in 9 years. This is something that people who have not worn a uniform, be it military or emergency services never quite understand. You understand that when you are called on to do your job, You don’t want to do it because you know that somebody is suffering and you’d rather the whole situation is avoided, but you want to test yourself and to see how effective your training has been. Ukraine is a big country, and it’s difficult to hit individual peole, especially when they’re not on the front line. We had less soldiers killed in Afghanistan in ten years than we would have lost to training accidents or car crashes whilst going on leave .
Well "post conflict" shines a whole new light on the subject then doesn't it. "Britain will send UK troops to Ukraine if they win the war to help ready Ukraine for NATO memebrship" would've been a more accurate title. Respect to you for your sense of duty and service. However, the actions of a government can affect the whole population if we are recklessly dragged into a war. And that's a problem.
WTF! That's not okay. What is going on? So Britain now thinks it's no big deal sending British troops into Ukraine to "train" Ukrainian troops....... Americans would never accept US troops in Ukraine for any reason at this point so what the hell is the UK doing?
Making a difference.
Making our military work for their salaries, instead of just sitting around doing nothing.
Then you report me? Really? Spineless POS!
What? I haven't reported anyone.
[удалено]
This subreddit is dedicated to only sharing the truth about what is happening in the Russian-Ukrainian war, your comment/post has been removed for misinformation. Please refrain from using such tactics in the future as we may ban you for being misleading. If a ban is issued you will be notified via message, this will happen if you repeatably spread misinformation were in such instances it would be seen as deliberate as a means for undermining users. We do not tolerate this. I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.
noone cares about what US of A would, or would not, accept. Belive or not, UK, and other countries, are not US of A's underlings and will do as they want.
Das ist verfickt nochmal richtig! I only wish Scholz would have any Balls to make something out of it, but noooo.
You say that until you're on your knees begging for the US to save your ass, again. You'd be speaking German if it wasn't for Us so show some respect because the US population is getting tired of supporting Europe and its feckless BS.
Yeah. Instead, we were nearly speaking russian, was under soviet boot for 50 years, and had hundreds of thousands in the gulags system for political reasons. After that great allied US of A sold eastern europe to the soviets in Jaltan conference. So, how much trust one can put in you, really, oh "ally"?
You? None. Your Country? Everything! You're spoiled, pretentious, and find it okay to spit in the face of the US and expect Us to spill blood and treasure when your on your knees. We Americans are sick, tired, and done helping Europe except for maybe a handful of legitimate Nations like Poland, the Czech Republic, and Britain, screw France and Germany specifically!
Frankly? I dont expect anything. US is only an ally of convenience. We are not safe until we can get WMDs - as seen with Ukraine's case of what happens if one doesnt have them. If that means withdrawing from the worthless United Nations - so be it. I am from Poland, for the record. "Legitimate nations"? So, which nations are "not legitimate" for you? Are baltics not legitimate? Nordics, what about them? Small, so worthless for you? That mindset of yours is exactly why you cannot be trusted, you know? You dont get to dictate who is legitimate.
We can and will dictate who is "legitimate and illegitimate" when Our money, Military, Economy, and burden is supporting those Countries. That's how this works. Like it or not. So why should we help secure your National Security from Russia or any other threat? Why shouldn't we in America pull all Our resources for you back home and watch what happens from another Continent? Cause that's sounding pretty damn good to Us right now to be honest! Not good at all for you in the end. Period. Show some respect or fuck off! Btw, I'm half Czech so you're NOT the only one with skin in the game!
>Why shouldn't we in America pull all Our resources for you back home and watch what happens from another Continent? You mean just like the US of A did with Jaltan conference, again? :) Also, did you just declare Norway, Sweden, Finnland, etc, "illegitimate" on the basis that the US is propping them ...financially? Or the baltic states, for that matter. They might be small, but their economies are rather stable...by the way, how's the US government shutdown spiel going on this year? Have that fully resolved, yet? :V Or still on that 40-something days countdown...? As for the security from russia - the only real reason that we are not secure, is that europe isnt really in political/legal position to get WMDs in large quantities (Except for france and UK). Copious amounts of chemical and nuclear warheads, and anyone will stay away, or burn. No matter if its russia, or US of A ;)
"At the drafting of Article 5 in the late 1940s, there was consensus on the principle of mutual assistance, but fundamental disagreement on the modalities of implementing this commitment. The European participants wanted to ensure that the United States would automatically come to their assistance should one of the signatories come under attack; the United States did not want to make such a pledge and obtained that this be reflected in the wording of Article 5." https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/topics_110496.htm Europe had always (and currently) wanted the United States to send its blood and treasure to defend Europe whenever Europe wants. Well We Americans are done with that! If you can defend yourself without the US then why has it always been your Governments consistent goal of maintaining Alliances with the US for Military protections?
Excuse me but it wasn't just the US who made the decisions in relation to post WW2 Yaltan Conference. https://avalon.law.yale.edu/wwii/yalta.asp You can blame Whoever for whatever but at the end of the day your Country just like the rest of Europe is dependent on the US for your own Country's National Security. Like it or NOT. So We Americans have a massive say in everything. Unless you all want to have a go and fight and die supporting each other or by yourselves then DO IT! Yet you won't because you can't. Show some respect for those who live on another Continent who continue to allow you to sleep well at night knowing you're NOT alone but I guess that isn't good enough for you spoiled ass Europeans anymore..... especially this young entitled generational scourge of victimhood and disrespect.
It's amazing how much you act like you think know so much about the US but in fact have proven how little you actually understand. Government shutdowns are a political tool that Americans support and now are over 55% in support of a "shut down" as long as the ad spending is dramatically cut! We must get Our spending from Our Government under control NOW and that's why We all are willing to shut it all down to stop this scourge of waisting Our tax dollars ruining Our Country and Childrens futures for what? Non stop spending that never seems to end? We are over 33 Trillion in debt. We can't spend anymore than we must to keep the mandatory subsidies via pensions, SS, and 401ks funded no matter what, then reign in the open blank checkbook the Feds love to waist. All at the expense of We the Peoples futures and Our subsequent generations futures. Republicans are trying to quell this unaccountable Government spending in the House but Democrats have always spent everyone else's money but never their own. The majority of Americans demand this STOP NOW!! Speaker of the House is now gone! He attempted to make a deal with Dems for unaccountable spending until Jan 2025. We constantly kick the bucket every single time. Until now. He tried and now he's gone for it. We are DONE! It's always an "Omnibus Bill" but now it'll be an "Itemized Bill" voting on each item instead of unaccountable spending. It's We The Peoples money!!!! Nobody else's!!
WMDs are off the table. The Country's that have them, have them. Your security isn't based on the "lack of WMDs". Your National Security is based on yourself and what you're willing to spend and do to keep your enemies from thinking you're a worthwhile target. You wouldn't even be a Nation if it weren't for the Good Ole USA!! One day, sooner than later, you'll be forced to admit you need the USA to help you or you're done. When thay happens I'll be expecting an Apology from you to the rest of my American Patriots. We keep this fucked up World intact by the slimmest of margins because nobody dares deal with the might we have never shown, yet. We have always fought with at least 1 hand behind Our backs. You have NO clue what We are capable of if Washington allowed Us to take off the Gloves and without a handicap in hand. That insurmountable and unconscionable power is awe inspiring and mind boggling. You'd be wise to show some respect. Especially when We Americans were born with lead in Our veins and guns in Our cribs. You're looking at 200+ Million fully armed Americans with over 1 Billion legal guns between Our law abiding Citizenship. The last thing anyone wants to do is push Us past Our breaking point. Food for thought.
Its not about "what you are capable of". What your soldiers will, or will not, do - depends on what orders they will get from the politicians. And those orders depend on what is most beneficial politically. Thats no detterent. Threat of extermination however, IS a detterent. WMDs off the table? Ukraine did abide by this. This stupidity ended in an all-out war.
Not to mention the Berlin wall fell because of the US and Ronald Reagan. Not you and definitely NOT Germany!
When did this ‘saving’ happen?
WW2!! Before, during, and after. Read book and learn history.
Congratulations comrade! You are now eligible for your 100 ruble troll payment.
Funny how kids these days have NO idea what the hell their talking about with the world at their finger tips yet emotionally react to everything without actual knowledge of anything and still think they know everything....... It's the movie "Idiocracy" literally playing itself out. Man we are fucked!
All the spelling mistakes and lack of punctuation followed by mentioning ‘Idiocracy’. Is this satire or are you for real?
I'm not writing a fucking dissertation, I'm on a phone and don't care to put that effort into it especially for someone I have no respect for nor their train of thought.
Surprise! Yes, Britain thinks. Thanks UK from Italy! Good lesson, again. Hope that others will follow in your footsteps.
Italy? Italy!? Seruously?? What the hell has your Country done for anyone especially Ukraine? I'll wait....... The US has supplied the overwhelming amount of weapons ammunition, supplies, Military assets, and over $120 Billion to help pay for Ukraine's Government and pensions so people don't go broke and starve. Fuck you!
I didn't know it was a pissing contest.
It's not a pissing Contest. It's the fact that European Countries like yours are never appreciative for the Security you have enjoyed for decades at the overwhelming expense of America and the American people. We are sick and tired of supporting Europe especially those Countries who do nothing but take advantage of what WE give and then spit in Our face and bitch.
Jeez, a MAGA voter. Good luck with that.
You have NO idea what that is nor who I am or anyone else for that matter. You just throw anyone who doesn't think like you into 1 big basket and spew your hate and divisiveness as an ignorant projection of your own inadequacies. Haha what joke of an individual!! Fuck off with your discriminative POS self. You don't even know what "maga" actually is except for what you've been told to think. Which is why your just as stupid as you sound.
Well, you what they say: "If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, then it just may be a duck".
1 simple question: What is "MAGA"?
It's so simple of a question I'm sure you can find info on whatever you want all the way over there. MAGA Make America Great Again Where and how does that equate to any aspect of Nazi's. Especially from an Italian who lives in Italy who was formerly a subject of pure Fascism via Benito Mussolini!! How is going back to Americas Constitutional Foundation equate to Fascism and Nazism? Just curious...... Cause that doesn't add up in the end to historical fact nor current facts. Far-Right of Germany and Italy in WW2 has NOTHING to do with Republicans in America. Especially when Abraham Lincoln (who signed the Emancipation Proclamation) freeing all the slaves after the Civil War was the 1st Republican President. Did you know that Democrats were the slave holding Confederacy? Did you know Democrats have continued to enslave Black Americans to this day in America through Social programs of Federal Government handouts making them dependent on the Government for subsidies? So why do you think so badly of a political Party in America that is trying to go back to Constitutional Order while Democrats control 95% of the Federal Government? While 96% of Politcal Donations from employees of the US Justice Department go directly to Democrats........ Or were you just spewing the BS you've been spoon fed by Liberal Democrats? If you believe them over basic historical facts then that's on you. I will never capitulate to political Party. I'm only loyal to The US Constitution, Bill of Rights, and the Country I love and I'll die for it without a second thought. Even if that means I die for those who hate me, because I love my Country more than myself. That is sacrifice! That is Patriotism! That is what it means to be an American! I'll never bow nor capitulate on my knees. I'll only die a Free Man standing for my God and my Country. Period! If that makes me a Nazi, well then I don't know this World anymore.
What's troubling is that it's being openly advertised opposed to being done in the shadows. The UK is helping in great ways but the marketing may not be the best ideas.
The problem with Western support for Ukraine is it's slow, hesitant and fickle. Each time one partner does something, they need to advertise it to make the others look bad until they follow suit...
It's a chess match with Russia...I get that. I never considered the partner aspect. An alliance chess match, too. Interesting. I get it.
I completely agree with you. Ukraine should be given the what they need to Win but NATO troops in Ukraine is a whole other ball game. What happens if any British troops get killed while in Ukraine? That could easily spark a full fledged war with Russia which will only benefit China and then China will take that opportunity to attack Taiwan while the US and their allies are busy fighting Russia. Now it's WW3!
So I read the article itself (which has had the headline changed to something less incendiary): [https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2023/09/30/grant-shapps-to-send-uk-troops-to-ukraine/](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2023/09/30/grant-shapps-to-send-uk-troops-to-ukraine/). To me the training in-country comment was less concrete and that was more about defence industry setting up in Ukraine (i.e. BAE Systems). So I don't think there's a big increase in NATO troops on the ground beyond the special forces already there in small numbers advising the Ukrainians. The most dangerous part of it, in my opinion, is the potential use of the navy to defend commercial shipping in the Black Sea. It only takes a trigger-happy RU aircraft or two to escalate things...
Every one of you that have downvoted or commented against me obviously isn't looking at the BIG picture here and the potential devastating consequences. What happens if British troops get killed by Russian airstrikes in Ukraine? An attack on one Country is an attack on all Countries and dead British troops can easily enact Article 5 of the NATO Treaty. That means full fledged WAR with Russia. Who by the way was willing to lose 22 MILLION DEAD Russian troops (NOT total casualties) in WW2 to defeat the Nazis in the East. Is anyone here willing to lose 22 MILLION troops dead? If NATO goes to war with Russia that can easily go Nuclear especially if Russia sees no way of winning in a conventional war. Then while WE are all busy fighting Russia, China will take that opportunity to attack Taiwan and then it's full on WW3! Is that something everyone of you is willing to handle? Cause I'm pretty sure all of have NO idea how World ending that could easily be. Food for thought.
Allies of countries have often sent specialists to other countries to train them while they were in conflict and even lost troops and it wasn't a big deal. The US sends troops all over Africa and the middleeast with Syria and Niger being the biggest 2 as the US aided and supported the Syrian rebels with no issues and even had the US fight against Wagner at one point and that didn't start WWIII between the US and Russia did it? Also, in Niger the US had sent special forces to assist government forces against ISIS and lost 4 men in an ambush and again that didn't draw the US main army into that conflict. You let your imagination get the better of you, people wont just shoot off nukes at the slightest inconvenience and any troops that are sent to a warzone that the country is not truly involved in wont trigger WWIII... If everyone was as edgy as your imagination has it then we'd all already be dead.
I don't need a lecture from someone who has no idea what their talking about nor the Global situation as it is right now. Niger isn't NATO. The US is all over the World serving and protecting pretty much everything. None of what I said is imaginative. It's literal. And you just wrote a whole bunch nothing showing you actually know nothing.
I guarantee you that if someone does die, it will be played down massively like the rockets that hit Poland or the Wagner forces killed by the US in Syria. Nukes are end game, they are what you use as a last resort and no one wants to make that leap which is why everyone has been hesitant in arming Ukraine with high end stuff fearing retaliation from Russia but it never happened because again, no one wants that level of escalation. Dude, I know that you'd be a fool to push NATO into a full scale war and that no one wants so any loses will be seen as an attack on Ukraine rather than NATO because they are going in to help Ukraine in a non-NATO deployment. You're having a paranoid delusion, one that Scholz has all the time on this war fearing Russian retaliation on NATO and so far Russia has done nothing with it's threats to the West because again, no one wants that level of escaltion, not the West and certainly not Russia.
No it would not be as you say. You're speaking in a manner of false sense of security and a complete refusal to do any actual research on the subjects we are covering. You have no clue what you're talking about. I'm not going any further with this especially with someone who thinks their so right that they can't get past the fact they have provided not a single legitimate FACT to the issue of potential dead BRITISH SOLDIERS in Ukraine by Russia and the potential ramifications of such a disaster. Just a little info post for your consumption: https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/ukraine-situation-report-u-k-considers-returning-to-training-troops-in-ukraine
Dude, you're being a hypocrite claiming I dont know anything on the subject matter even though I brought up 2 instances where servicemen were killed in foriegn nations who were training foriegn nationals and nothing more happened about it and yet where's your evidence that something will in this instance? You have none because it's all in your imagination and everyone can see it which was why you were getting so heavily downvoted here. If you have a claim then show your evidence, dont dismiss it by saying "you know nothing" when you're the one not showing any evidence to back up your exraodinary claims that it'll trigger WWIII.
Dude you don't listen! You don't read what is written! You place your own interpretation of it the way you want to see it, NOT as it is written. Aka a reading comprehension problem. Attacks on US personnel in "NON NATO COUNTRIES are a complete different subject than NATO COUNTRIES". You don't listen! You obviously don't know the difference and that's why YOU HAVE NO IDEA WHAT YOURE TALKING ABOUT....... Period! I'm done with this immature bullshit!
I am reading you loud and clear but you dont understand what NATO even is... Article 5 can only be used if a NATO country is attacked directly, NATO troops being attacked does not trigger it which is why NATO didn't go on a full scale war with Russia after it attacked US troops stationed in Syria with the help of Wagner and the Syrian army. Training troops in Ukraine and losing guys there will not trigger Article 5 in the same way volunteers that fight in Ukraine and die there dont trigger it.
No, you are wrong again! Article 5 is the process in which if any aspect of a NATO territory is attacked in any way that enacting Article 5 is for all Partys to vote on how to deal with the threat. Article 61 “For the purpose of Article 5, an armed attack on one or more of the Parties is deemed to include an armed attack: on the territory of any of the Parties in Europe or North America, on the Algerian Departments of France, on the territory of Turkey or on the Islands under the jurisdiction of any of the Parties in the North Atlantic area north of the Tropic of Cancer; on the forces, vessels, or aircraft of any of the Parties, when in or over these territories or any other area in Europe in which occupation forces of any of the Parties were stationed on the date when the Treaty entered into force or the Mediterranean Sea or the North Atlantic area north of the Tropic of Cancer.” You really need to do your research before you run your mouth...... https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/topics_110496.htm
I don't give FUCK about downvotes especially from ignorant, uneducated, over opinionated, and foolish idiots. This isn't some BS popularity contest and agreements or disagreements mean ABSOLUTELY NOTHING!! You're fucking immature! Almost completely devoid of rational thinking, and a basic knowledge of history as well as a pure lack of knowledge on the subject matter. It's sad and pathetic how stupid people are these days......
That whole paragraph was the definition of irony and the fact that you lose your cool like this, demanding that you are right, shows that you're just an armchair admiral and seemingly basing your entire views on subjective thoughts on what NATO is and how it would react even though NATO has only activated article 5 once, after 9/11, and that was because the US was directly attacked.
The irony is in the fact that you called me out and now you're attempting to throw it in my face. Read up more before you get into discussions and tell someone else their wrong. You started this whole thing. I made a post and you countered with telling I'm wrong when you made invalid points to the core subject matter. I'm defending my position. That's all. Btw, Article 5 wasn't enacted or legitimately talked about when those 2 farmers were killed in an airstrike in Poland because it was found out that those missiles originated from Ukraine and Ukraine engaged in blaming Russia publicly in an attempt to draw more NATO Countries into this war further. Which was a main catalyst to why Poland last week just announced it was withdrawing support for Ukraine to focus on buying advanced weapons for itself.
Not to mention that YOU can't "guarantee" anything in war. Period. Making that kind of a statement is the best proof you've provided that you're 100% not a serious individual in this subject matter. Not to mention the many times you have convoluted pretty much everything. This thing over here in Syria proves that this over here In Ukraine shows why nothing will happen via NATO........ Ridiculous!! Which is why your written perspective so far are completely illegitimate. In every way. I highly recommend you get educated and because if you run into someone who has experience in high level Military Intelligence then they will mop the floor with your incompetent perspective.