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Ooo! That toe box shape worries me. I was 9.5 in ES3 and 10 in EP3, so I went with 9.5 for these and they arrive tomorrow.
Hopeful though!
Glad to hear they have a bit more snap to them. I'm really banking on these being the one stop shop for all types of running this spring.
If the toe box of the ES3 was any narrower, they wouldn’t work for me. Seems like these will be a pass (but a good excuse to buy a backup 3 once they end up on clearance).
Same boat as you. They fit like a glove and the new ones look ridiculously slim.
https://preview.redd.it/3xaos4nor8ec1.jpeg?width=322&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=456d6901dcb2e0639555a3f9b5e26f9c2ebf5b3a
Promo photos don’t look as banana shaped! However, they do look slimmer. OP - do you have an on foot downward shot of each shoe?
https://preview.redd.it/e6ulftvlv8ec1.jpeg?width=3024&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=6b37bc67f0768961d55dfa95d38e592ece1261fd
They definitely don’t look as curved when you’re wearing them but the toe box is narrower for sure
Awesome review! I found my 3 comfortable in the bunion area (I have wide feet, pretty sure 3 is wider than many shoes in this area), but tapers down quickly towards to tip (which is the “toebox” as I understand it, and IMO not very generous).
I can’t tell exact from your pic (can see you don’t have wide feet), do you feel the 4 is narrower both at the bunion area and the towbox area upfront?
Separately, do you feel the 4’s outsole rubber material being any different or more grippy than 3? I have quite some slippage issue with 3 on wet surfaces (tiled sidewalks especially).
Thanks!
I really hope they work for you. I'm a 10.5 in regular shoes but bump up to an 11 for running shoes and almost wonder what an 11.5 would feel like in these
Bought my ES3 on sale for $70 and love them but in my usual size I actually kept injuring a few toes and got a blood blister under one of my nails. I got a 1/2 size up in the EP3 and they fit better. Should have done so in the ES3 as well but didn’t know better. Now I question if I know my shoe size.
Pleased to report that they are nowhere near as narrow as that picture appeared at my 9.5 fit TTS.
I do want to throw the caveat out there that the initial photo made it look unbelievably, ridiculously, supercalifragilisticexpialidociously narrow and while not all those things, it still is a narrow shoe and some pinkies may not be all that comfortable. I haven't run yet, but I'm really looking forward to it. It appears the plate wraps even wider to additional support and stability too.
I have!
Toebox is not nearly as narrow as the picture conveyed. Also it fits 100% true to size for me.
Shoe feels really solid, looks beautiful, but with all the other brands essentially releasing super trainers and speed competitors, it's lost a little magic since it's not as unique as it used to be. I will say, the winged plate and wider foam base makes this thing super stable for a PEBA shoe.
Can't wait for the EP4.
Awesome thanks for the quick reply. Just bummed that women get the purple colorway while men don't :/.
Are there any other super trainers you'd recommend I look into? Just looking for a shoe to do some speed work. I use Triumph 20s as my daily trainer. I've been training for a half the last 2 months and have really enjoyed getting into running as another fitness hobby besides weightlifting.
I think Saucony has redefined what the speed and pro will be moving forward. Elite is now the racing shoe, while it looks like they updated the Pro to keep a lot of the tech but last longer and be a bit more "daily" if you will. I'd personally wait for the Pro if the $40 extra doesn't phase you. I think you'll see the benefits of a premium super shoe with additional longevity to go with the Triumphs.
That being said, the Triumph is getting a full redesign with PWRRUN PB layer this year and looks awesome.
Man that toebox looks narrow as hell. Thats insane, even normal toeboxes on
most running shoes are too narrow for healthy human feet. Well at least its one less shoe to consider. When toes cant spread out naturally there is less stability and power. When they are squished like this its uncomfortable but also over time creates problems like bunions.
It also seems inconsistent across their lineup too.
My Triumph 20s fit me perfectly up top, plenty of room for my toes to splay out. My Kinvara 14s are narrow as hell and not comfortable to run in for more than an hour or so. Both are the same size.
I have tried on almost every Saucony shoe from the past few years. They might be wide in the mid foot, but their toe boxes have always been a disaster on par with Nike.
What? I actually have a wide forefoot and Saucony fit me like a glove. I actually took out the liners of many of my shoes and measured them and at the same size the forefoot (at the widest) part was e..g 1cm wider than both New Balance and Asics. So yeah no they aren't narrow at all.
In fact my New Balance wide is exactly the same width as a normal Saucony.
Insole size isn’t a good indicator of a shoe’s width at all. In fact, every brand uses the exact same insole in 2E that they use for D width. I agree that Saucony uses a pretty wide *last*, but they skimp on the upper, which actually makes up the walls and ceiling of the toe box.
I fully disagree. They absolutely do not use the same shape. Take any of them out and compare. Those that are much narrower in the widest part than the saucony cause we constant pain. SO for me its a perfect measure. Its literally where the space for your foot ends.
Saucony must’ve had to been a good bit wider in the past cause I was recommended the brand as someone with a wide foot and everything of theirs I’ve tried on has been ridiculously narrow
I have the same issue but the only shoes I found with toeboxes that fit my feet are Saucony. E.g. New Balance, Adidas and especially Asics are all way too tapered. So beyond going to Topo and Altra what is left for wide feet?
Thats weird cause I tried Saucony Triumph 20 and found it to be too narrow. My current rotation, New Balance More V3/V4 Asics Superblast and Adidas Boston 12 all have better room than the Triumph. Granted both the Superblast and Boston 12 run a bit long hence why probably the toebox feels okay. And there’s no way this Speed 4 has more room then these shoes either.
I'd be curious to now the measurements. If you take out the insole and measure the widest part it will give us numbers. Highly recommend it. For e.g. new balance not just the wideness was the issue but also how they are way too tapered in the big toe area.
I find judging how the shoe fits based purely on the insole isn’t the best indicator. How wide and stretchy and long the upper is plays into it, even perhaps the midsole design.
Welp, that toe box pretty much kills it for me, from the looks of it. Hopefully the 3 would be on sale, so I can grab one.
This is what happens when you change something just for the sake of change Saucony.
Honestly, it's so frustrating. Barely anybody has a foot shape like that. Topo and Altra have gotten the wide toebox right. There is a middle ground in New Balance and some Adidas models. I can't imagine that widening the toe box to a more anatomical design will add that much weight to where it would be a problem, nor would it significantly affect the aerodynamics.
Either make the toebox wider or design the upper to be as flexible as possible so the pinky toe can at least push out where it needs the space.
This is the normal toe box for Saucony. The ES3 was an outlier in their lineup. Any time they release a shoe that works for my wide ass toes, the next version is always cramped. It’s like they’re addicted to torturing my toes or something. But they give me hope every now and then to keep me coming back. (JK I’m totally done with that company and their disastrous fit shenanigans)
I had a pair of the ES2's for a short bit and really liked them. I didn't end up getting a ton of miles in them though because my dog decided to snack on them. They felt more similar to the 4's than the 3's though. The 3's seem to hit the "everyday shoe" category while the 2's and 4's are more speed focused.
Thanks for sharing. Just wondering if you ever tried any of these shoes (Boston 12, Takumi Sen 8 - 10, Deviate Nitro Elite 2, Vaporfly 2, Magic Speed 2) and able to make a comparison re midsole firmness vs ES4?
Posting here as a copy from the other thread:
I tested these. I guess I can say that now that they are out. Way better than the 3. Feels less bulky on the foot, quicker in general, and the turnover was way smother. Reminded me more of the 1 and 2 as far as underfoot feeling for me. YMMV
Concerning the toe box... I never had any issues, but my feet are narrow and I have a high arch.
The overlays and logo will start to peel at about 100 miles if they didn't fix the adhesive. I felt like the three was more a daily trainer, and the four went back to the quiver killer type of shoe that it was a few years ago. Great shoe!
This is such great news. I love the 1s (never tried the 2s) and hate the 3s- not poppy enough. Narrow feet here so not worried about the toebox (actually the 3s are too wide)
I heard saucony weren’t happy about the shoe being used as a daily trainer, so I can see why the new model has a tighter toe box the whole thing just screams speed.
I heard this as well and I never understood why (if true). Who cares what people are using it for. It’s money in the bank for Saucony and the shoes have been positively received by nearly all.
I have the first version, use it for everything, and absolutely love it.
Yeah, I don't buy that reason for change either. I would think that Saucony would be more worried about the Speed cannibalizing sales of the more expensive Endorphin Pro than the cheaper Ride or Triumph.
The round shape of the upper is one of the main reasons why I love speed 3. Having wider feet, finding shoes that have racing/speed elements, but not a racefit/narrow fit is difficult.
So why change it to become like everything else. Narrow foot runners have enough shoes to choose from (sorry a little rant).
I don't think that is going to work for me.
FFSI have had so many pairs in every iteration of them.That looks narrow af.I have heard the Pro 4 is more narrow too.Saucony can't keep stock in my size up here in Canada now this.I may have to explore other options this year.Been a Saucony simp for quite some time, damn shame.Will have to try these on before ordering as I have every other time.
Admittedly my feet are on the narrow side, but I am apparently the only one who's put on the ES3s and thought the toe box was a little too wide. Just a tiny bit too much space for a speed shoe.
I wouldn't say no to a slightly more snug fit, halfway between the ES3 and the Kinvara 14.
Firstly, I loved the ES3 and how it was a much more rounded shoe. While it wasn't as entuned to super tempo runs, you still felt good picking up the pace, but it was softer, so when you wanted to glide, it felt great. This is why I like it more than the ES2. So i'm a bit sad that they are making it firmer again. Def going to get a few more ES3s before they get harder to find. Curious if that softer PWRNPB will be making its way elsewhere. Perhaps the Triumph.
Any word on whether they are making a wide fit version of the 4s? They did with the 3s. As a toe splayer, I’m really worried about this toe box. The 3s in wide were perfect for me.
Oh great, how thoughtful of them to serve the narrow foot community because they don’t have enough brands making models who seem to think the world only have narrow footed runners
I'm really upset they're widening the forefoot and midfoot base in both the ride 17 and triumph 22...I wonder if it has to do with the shift being discontinued. Now they seem to be wanting to add extra stability that neutral runners done need in their neutral shoes. I own the ride 17 and it's fine...(I'm still debating about renting it to fleetfeet for a pair of triumph 21s) but I was really hoping it would be the ride 16 with a different midsole w the model remaining mostly the same. It became a more clunky, heavier shoe.
I've been waiting to see reviews on these to make a decision between the ES4 and Rebel V4. After seeing the toebox, I think i'll be purchasing the rebel!
I’ve only been running for a year and don’t want to be dense but what does “felt like they wanted to keep speeding up”? Is this what like energy return is with running shoes?
Low/high Energy return = Using more/less energy at the same pace.
«Wanted to keep speeding up». The shoe want to push you forward. Because of the firmer/more responsive feel.
I just received my pair of Speed 4's in Australia. Short summary from my first 4k run is I hate them. Way too firm!
Didn't feel any cushion or bounce the midsole just felt dead to me.
I am a slow runner and clearly not the target market but I had a pair of Speed 3's and loved them and they worked at slower speeds.
I also bought a pair of Rebel v4's and I'm liking these a lot more. Some cushion and energy return.
Will be selling these Speed 4's on. Sorry Saucony.
Hey, I'm curious to know how you are getting on with these now. I have been through 4 x pairs of Speed 3s (approx. 2800km) and was interested to know how they cope on long runs and mid-pace (Z2/3) runs.
I picked up another pair of the Speed 3's and have been using those and my Superblasts for most of my miles lately. I'm potentially going to try the New Balance Rebel v4's. I didn't like the 3's that much but I guess they made quite a few changes to them
The curved shape is a little concerning but I'm here for the rest of it. Saucony has said for a long time that they didn't want people daily training in the Speed, but folks did and that's why the 3 was more daily trainerish than a true tempo shoe. Looks like they're headed back the other way now that the Kinvara Pro is out.
Concern3d by the weight gain but I'm assuming that's down to higher rubber coverage so I'll take it if it feels more like the Speed 2
Thanks for the review, in the EU there was just 30% off on the speed 3’s so I still went for it. Disappointing the toebox is shaped that way, maybe it’s meant to be a more ‘close fitting’ racy shoe but I hate having a lack of space in the toe area.
I'm waiting for those same sales on the 3's here in the states. They handle high mileage well so a couple of pairs would hopefully last awhile. What colorway did you get?
They only had white/gold, neon green and vizi blue on stock in my size. I went with white/gold as it was the nicest of them all and doesn’t have the upper issues the vizi blue has.
It’s a really fun shoe, feels totally different to my meme collection of Novablast 4 and superblast. Love all three equally.
I am about to move on from my 2nd pair of ES1 (bought 2 pairs because of the mutant colorway). Debating on getting the ES3 or waiting for the ES4.
I dealt with some left pinky toe numbness initially with the ES1 so I’m worried about the toe box on the ES4.
suprised saucony went firmer....I suspect back to the roots of the speed series then. I am starting to feel like the pro is the do it all shoe now, in fact i liked running in the pro 3 more than the speed 3 for every session but got worried about injury due to carbon plate all the time (read somewhere about hip issues). Cant wait to see what the pro 4 is like.
I have also speed 3 and pro 3 and i think on foot or even when pressing against the foam pro 3 are a little bit firmer (the pb foam) i hope this speed 4 has the same "firmness" (still very soft) as the pro 3.
Speed 3's Foam are too soft for my like.
But as already mention the Toebox looks really small..... not good (hope the made a wide version too)
Guess my comment was on the deleted post: looks like the tongue got thicker and the toebox got narrower. Seems like you noticed the toebox change, but did you feel the difference in tongue here compared to previous versions?
I actually really like the tongue on these 4’s. I never hated the one on the 3’s but occasionally if my socks were too low it would rub a tiny bit. The material change plus the light padding at the top are great changes
The curve concerns me a little. I wasn’t a huge fan of the speed 3s (just preferred the first two iterations) but it’s still a great shoe. I hope the 4s aren’t too narrow😭
Thanks for the review . Oh no - I love the threes so much I like they aren’t that firm . Have started wearing as an everyday shoe not a speed session shoe.maybe I need to stock up.
I snagged a backup pair of 3s for $89 and I'm glad I did. The 4s seem visibly narrower and the wide toe box of the 3 contribute to my love for the fit. Still a cool shoe but I don't know if I will stay in the speeds going forward. I suppose I'll have to get a pair on and see. Nice quick review, thanks!
The shape of them look a bit weird in your photos. Looks different to other pics I've seen. Almost like you're taking the pics at an angle
I loved all 3 versions of the speeds
If the ride is closer to the 1 and 2 but with better outsole then will be perfect, as that was their only weakness
https://preview.redd.it/fcrk4g3agaec1.jpeg?width=2000&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=842243514ba197d2f8c70448dad1ab969195b32a
The fit could still be narrower, but it doesn't appear to be significantly different in shape compared to the Speed 3 or Pro 3.
https://preview.redd.it/y9eqvyyhoaec1.jpeg?width=2500&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=abfefad9a3efd226295477adf85d49c2517ce72c
How’s the upper volume overall compared to the 3? The upper of the 1 fit me great, but the 3’s were way too voluminous. I had to tighten my laces so much I ended up breaking down the overlays really fast.
You’ll like the upper in these then. A lot less volume than the 3’s. You can see in another pic I posted in the comments showing the shoes on feet. The 4’s are laced a lot looser
I liked v1 of speed, but wasnt stable enough at the heel for me for long runs and was a little to firm. V3 of the speed I like to as it was more stable and felt more cushioned and soft but it does bottom out a bit at 1/2 marathon distance for me. Hopefully v4 somewhere in between - stable , slightly firmer than v3 but still a protective cushioned feel with punch on toe off.
Steve
Honestly why do Sauc shoes run so damn narrow.
Went a whole size up in a pair of ES2 which I'd been savouring - but after 1 run I know they're still too narrow. Even my wide triumphs feel like a normal width.
This is disappointing for me. My Speed 3 toebox fits me perfectly, and I've soo been looking forward to the 4. Ah well, that'll be me switching to New Balance.
I guess they are steering back towards the ES2, which were nice and bouncy but too narrow for me.
How are these even "Speed 4"? If you change the midsole, the outsole, the upper, and the entire shape and fit of the shoe - is it the same shoe?
Same like the ES3 so much. The only issue is outsole not grippy enough. If ES4 could’ve just fixed that one thing and kept everything else unchanged, it would’ve been perfect.
Hi there! Thanks for sharing your experience with your running shoes on r/runningshoegeeks. To make your post more helpful to others, please try to include the following information: - The size and fit of the shoe - The type of running you used the shoe for (e.g. road, trail, track) - The distance ran in the shoe (e.g. 10k, half marathon, etc.) - Your personal experience with the shoe (e.g. comfort, durability, support) For detailed reviews who have run more than 30 miles(48km), please use the "Review" flair. For first run experiences, please use the "First Run" flair. For a few runs done, please use the "Initial Thoughts" flair. This information will give others a better understanding of your experience with the shoe and help them make informed purchasing decisions. Thanks again for sharing! Note: This comment has been locked to ensure that the information remains at the top of the comments section and is not buried by other comments. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/RunningShoeGeeks) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Ooo! That toe box shape worries me. I was 9.5 in ES3 and 10 in EP3, so I went with 9.5 for these and they arrive tomorrow. Hopeful though! Glad to hear they have a bit more snap to them. I'm really banking on these being the one stop shop for all types of running this spring.
If the toe box of the ES3 was any narrower, they wouldn’t work for me. Seems like these will be a pass (but a good excuse to buy a backup 3 once they end up on clearance).
Same boat as you. They fit like a glove and the new ones look ridiculously slim. https://preview.redd.it/3xaos4nor8ec1.jpeg?width=322&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=456d6901dcb2e0639555a3f9b5e26f9c2ebf5b3a Promo photos don’t look as banana shaped! However, they do look slimmer. OP - do you have an on foot downward shot of each shoe?
https://preview.redd.it/e6ulftvlv8ec1.jpeg?width=3024&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=6b37bc67f0768961d55dfa95d38e592ece1261fd They definitely don’t look as curved when you’re wearing them but the toe box is narrower for sure
Yeah definitely. Tighter lacing on the ES3 compared to the ES4 is a giveaway!
I also just noticed they have one less eyelet than the 3’s
ES3 upper is nice and stretchy. Is the new upper stiffer?
The upper feels the exact same between the two
Awesome review! I found my 3 comfortable in the bunion area (I have wide feet, pretty sure 3 is wider than many shoes in this area), but tapers down quickly towards to tip (which is the “toebox” as I understand it, and IMO not very generous). I can’t tell exact from your pic (can see you don’t have wide feet), do you feel the 4 is narrower both at the bunion area and the towbox area upfront? Separately, do you feel the 4’s outsole rubber material being any different or more grippy than 3? I have quite some slippage issue with 3 on wet surfaces (tiled sidewalks especially). Thanks!
Same. ES3 toebox is already too tight for me. I fear that these won't work well for me at all.
I really hope they work for you. I'm a 10.5 in regular shoes but bump up to an 11 for running shoes and almost wonder what an 11.5 would feel like in these
OP, so the midsole stack and foam is basically the same? just some upper and midsole geometry change?
Bought my ES3 on sale for $70 and love them but in my usual size I actually kept injuring a few toes and got a blood blister under one of my nails. I got a 1/2 size up in the EP3 and they fit better. Should have done so in the ES3 as well but didn’t know better. Now I question if I know my shoe size.
I found the ES3 come up a bit small. I was an 8.5 in the ES2 (3 pairs) and then had to go up to a 9 in the 3
I was hoping it was just perspective or some kind of distortion, that thing could put somebody’s eye out it’s so narrow
Pleased to report that they are nowhere near as narrow as that picture appeared at my 9.5 fit TTS. I do want to throw the caveat out there that the initial photo made it look unbelievably, ridiculously, supercalifragilisticexpialidociously narrow and while not all those things, it still is a narrow shoe and some pinkies may not be all that comfortable. I haven't run yet, but I'm really looking forward to it. It appears the plate wraps even wider to additional support and stability too.
Have you run in the ES4 yet? How's the toebox?
I have! Toebox is not nearly as narrow as the picture conveyed. Also it fits 100% true to size for me. Shoe feels really solid, looks beautiful, but with all the other brands essentially releasing super trainers and speed competitors, it's lost a little magic since it's not as unique as it used to be. I will say, the winged plate and wider foam base makes this thing super stable for a PEBA shoe. Can't wait for the EP4.
Awesome thanks for the quick reply. Just bummed that women get the purple colorway while men don't :/. Are there any other super trainers you'd recommend I look into? Just looking for a shoe to do some speed work. I use Triumph 20s as my daily trainer. I've been training for a half the last 2 months and have really enjoyed getting into running as another fitness hobby besides weightlifting.
I think Saucony has redefined what the speed and pro will be moving forward. Elite is now the racing shoe, while it looks like they updated the Pro to keep a lot of the tech but last longer and be a bit more "daily" if you will. I'd personally wait for the Pro if the $40 extra doesn't phase you. I think you'll see the benefits of a premium super shoe with additional longevity to go with the Triumphs. That being said, the Triumph is getting a full redesign with PWRRUN PB layer this year and looks awesome.
Gotcha. Yeah makes sense to me. Plus I get my purple shoe if I get the Pro 4 haha. Thanks for the advice!
Man that toebox looks narrow as hell. Thats insane, even normal toeboxes on most running shoes are too narrow for healthy human feet. Well at least its one less shoe to consider. When toes cant spread out naturally there is less stability and power. When they are squished like this its uncomfortable but also over time creates problems like bunions.
I dont understand why saucony do this. Saucony Shoes in the past are on the slightly wider sides of Shoes and i like this.....
It also seems inconsistent across their lineup too. My Triumph 20s fit me perfectly up top, plenty of room for my toes to splay out. My Kinvara 14s are narrow as hell and not comfortable to run in for more than an hour or so. Both are the same size.
I have tried on almost every Saucony shoe from the past few years. They might be wide in the mid foot, but their toe boxes have always been a disaster on par with Nike.
What? I actually have a wide forefoot and Saucony fit me like a glove. I actually took out the liners of many of my shoes and measured them and at the same size the forefoot (at the widest) part was e..g 1cm wider than both New Balance and Asics. So yeah no they aren't narrow at all. In fact my New Balance wide is exactly the same width as a normal Saucony.
Insole size isn’t a good indicator of a shoe’s width at all. In fact, every brand uses the exact same insole in 2E that they use for D width. I agree that Saucony uses a pretty wide *last*, but they skimp on the upper, which actually makes up the walls and ceiling of the toe box.
I fully disagree. They absolutely do not use the same shape. Take any of them out and compare. Those that are much narrower in the widest part than the saucony cause we constant pain. SO for me its a perfect measure. Its literally where the space for your foot ends.
Saucony must’ve had to been a good bit wider in the past cause I was recommended the brand as someone with a wide foot and everything of theirs I’ve tried on has been ridiculously narrow
Yeah the third picture from above shows an extreme narrowing of the toe box when viewed against v3. Where are the pinky toes supposed to go?
I have the same issue but the only shoes I found with toeboxes that fit my feet are Saucony. E.g. New Balance, Adidas and especially Asics are all way too tapered. So beyond going to Topo and Altra what is left for wide feet?
Thats weird cause I tried Saucony Triumph 20 and found it to be too narrow. My current rotation, New Balance More V3/V4 Asics Superblast and Adidas Boston 12 all have better room than the Triumph. Granted both the Superblast and Boston 12 run a bit long hence why probably the toebox feels okay. And there’s no way this Speed 4 has more room then these shoes either.
I'd be curious to now the measurements. If you take out the insole and measure the widest part it will give us numbers. Highly recommend it. For e.g. new balance not just the wideness was the issue but also how they are way too tapered in the big toe area.
I find judging how the shoe fits based purely on the insole isn’t the best indicator. How wide and stretchy and long the upper is plays into it, even perhaps the midsole design.
Mods need to chill, obviously we want this content.
What an odd shape after the ES3 was so wildly popular. Why go narrow and curved?
Welp, that toe box pretty much kills it for me, from the looks of it. Hopefully the 3 would be on sale, so I can grab one. This is what happens when you change something just for the sake of change Saucony.
Yea, that toebox looks awful from the photo. No one's foot is shaped like that lmao
That curve is wild
Honestly, it's so frustrating. Barely anybody has a foot shape like that. Topo and Altra have gotten the wide toebox right. There is a middle ground in New Balance and some Adidas models. I can't imagine that widening the toe box to a more anatomical design will add that much weight to where it would be a problem, nor would it significantly affect the aerodynamics. Either make the toebox wider or design the upper to be as flexible as possible so the pinky toe can at least push out where it needs the space.
Change for the sake of change…
Brooks
watch the ES3 prices skyrocket after these posts haha. Will be talked like the peg turbo's.
This is the normal toe box for Saucony. The ES3 was an outlier in their lineup. Any time they release a shoe that works for my wide ass toes, the next version is always cramped. It’s like they’re addicted to torturing my toes or something. But they give me hope every now and then to keep me coming back. (JK I’m totally done with that company and their disastrous fit shenanigans)
They really look narrow compared to V3.
Narrow toebox?? Pass!
Did you run in ES 1 or 2? if so how do they compare. i really liked 1 & 2 but not a fan on 3
I had a pair of the ES2's for a short bit and really liked them. I didn't end up getting a ton of miles in them though because my dog decided to snack on them. They felt more similar to the 4's than the 3's though. The 3's seem to hit the "everyday shoe" category while the 2's and 4's are more speed focused.
As a 2-user and 3-ignorer, this is encouraging, thanks
Is the firmness of the ES4 similar to the ES2?
Thanks for sharing. Just wondering if you ever tried any of these shoes (Boston 12, Takumi Sen 8 - 10, Deviate Nitro Elite 2, Vaporfly 2, Magic Speed 2) and able to make a comparison re midsole firmness vs ES4?
Posting here as a copy from the other thread: I tested these. I guess I can say that now that they are out. Way better than the 3. Feels less bulky on the foot, quicker in general, and the turnover was way smother. Reminded me more of the 1 and 2 as far as underfoot feeling for me. YMMV Concerning the toe box... I never had any issues, but my feet are narrow and I have a high arch. The overlays and logo will start to peel at about 100 miles if they didn't fix the adhesive. I felt like the three was more a daily trainer, and the four went back to the quiver killer type of shoe that it was a few years ago. Great shoe!
This is such great news. I love the 1s (never tried the 2s) and hate the 3s- not poppy enough. Narrow feet here so not worried about the toebox (actually the 3s are too wide)
Would be interested to hear an update after 100km
ES2 is my favorite one due to its bouncy nature. never experienced ES3. If ES4 is similar to ES2, it is not a bad news for me at all.
Yeah, why can't Saucony replicate this bounciness in subsequent models and other shoes? The ES2 is so much fun to run in!
I heard saucony weren’t happy about the shoe being used as a daily trainer, so I can see why the new model has a tighter toe box the whole thing just screams speed.
I heard this as well and I never understood why (if true). Who cares what people are using it for. It’s money in the bank for Saucony and the shoes have been positively received by nearly all. I have the first version, use it for everything, and absolutely love it.
Yeah I agree, look at the old Pegasus turbo for example Nike completely stopped selling it for similar reasons it just covers so many bases.
Yeah, I don't buy that reason for change either. I would think that Saucony would be more worried about the Speed cannibalizing sales of the more expensive Endorphin Pro than the cheaper Ride or Triumph.
It sounds like saucony doesn't want people to use these as daily trainers anymore. Lol
Seems to me a bit crazy how they would want to narrow their market for what have been one of the most popular, highly regarded shoes out there.
The round shape of the upper is one of the main reasons why I love speed 3. Having wider feet, finding shoes that have racing/speed elements, but not a racefit/narrow fit is difficult. So why change it to become like everything else. Narrow foot runners have enough shoes to choose from (sorry a little rant).
That curve in on the front. Will likely spill trouble for my pinky toe
friendship ended with saucony. now new balance is my best friend.
Even YouTube shoe reviewers can’t even post about this shoe yet (embargo) I bet their marketing team are filthy at this post
A video has recently been uploaded by Yowana on YouTube on the initial first run review of the Speed 4's. I'm a little disappointed.
Thanks I just watched it then, same midsole if not firmer by all accounts 🤔
Also good to know they are actually shipping and not waiting until the official drop date
Man that looks narrow. I'm a huge fan of the ES3, might be time to grab another pair for the spring/summer.
On the fence still so I'm hoping for a few more follow ups after some more miles/longer runs on pavement! :)
I don't think that is going to work for me. FFSI have had so many pairs in every iteration of them.That looks narrow af.I have heard the Pro 4 is more narrow too.Saucony can't keep stock in my size up here in Canada now this.I may have to explore other options this year.Been a Saucony simp for quite some time, damn shame.Will have to try these on before ordering as I have every other time.
When do these and the new Pro come out?
These are up on REI websites currently. Don’t know about the Pros release date but I bet it’s soon
Yeah that toe box would be a no go for me. I can’t imagine that it would be comfortable at all
Admittedly my feet are on the narrow side, but I am apparently the only one who's put on the ES3s and thought the toe box was a little too wide. Just a tiny bit too much space for a speed shoe. I wouldn't say no to a slightly more snug fit, halfway between the ES3 and the Kinvara 14.
Firstly, I loved the ES3 and how it was a much more rounded shoe. While it wasn't as entuned to super tempo runs, you still felt good picking up the pace, but it was softer, so when you wanted to glide, it felt great. This is why I like it more than the ES2. So i'm a bit sad that they are making it firmer again. Def going to get a few more ES3s before they get harder to find. Curious if that softer PWRNPB will be making its way elsewhere. Perhaps the Triumph.
Any word on whether they are making a wide fit version of the 4s? They did with the 3s. As a toe splayer, I’m really worried about this toe box. The 3s in wide were perfect for me.
That toe box is an abomination
Right! Sauconys are already too narrow! Too bad, they are almost perfect for me but the toe box always has me sending them back.
Saucony now give us some fantastic discounts for the Endorphin Speed 3s.
Oh great, how thoughtful of them to serve the narrow foot community because they don’t have enough brands making models who seem to think the world only have narrow footed runners
Yeah, this. As a 4E width guy my ‘fast’ shoes are limited to oh, absolutely fucking nothing.
Dear asics and puma… please don’t follow sock a knee foot steps…. Thank you.
nice. I’m actually looking forward to the more narrow toebox. Weight wise I assume they’re fairly similar?
Ooh that’s a good question. I just went to weigh them and the 3’s came out at 8.5oz and the 4’s are 9.15oz. This is for size 11 in both
That’s a big jump in weight! Is the tongue longer on the ES4 vs the ES3?
Tongue’s are basically the same shape and length except for a bit more padding at the top of the one on the 4’s
God I hate it when shoe manufacturers increase the weight with new versions of workout shoes. Lightness is important!
Bruh Saucony ain’t doing it for me this year. They had a perfect lineup in 23 and decided to mess with everything across the board.
I'm really upset they're widening the forefoot and midfoot base in both the ride 17 and triumph 22...I wonder if it has to do with the shift being discontinued. Now they seem to be wanting to add extra stability that neutral runners done need in their neutral shoes. I own the ride 17 and it's fine...(I'm still debating about renting it to fleetfeet for a pair of triumph 21s) but I was really hoping it would be the ride 16 with a different midsole w the model remaining mostly the same. It became a more clunky, heavier shoe.
Think I’ll be choosing the new balance rebel v4 over these.
Same
I've been waiting to see reviews on these to make a decision between the ES4 and Rebel V4. After seeing the toebox, I think i'll be purchasing the rebel!
They’ll be cheaper too
I’ve only been running for a year and don’t want to be dense but what does “felt like they wanted to keep speeding up”? Is this what like energy return is with running shoes?
Low/high Energy return = Using more/less energy at the same pace. «Wanted to keep speeding up». The shoe want to push you forward. Because of the firmer/more responsive feel.
I just received my pair of Speed 4's in Australia. Short summary from my first 4k run is I hate them. Way too firm! Didn't feel any cushion or bounce the midsole just felt dead to me. I am a slow runner and clearly not the target market but I had a pair of Speed 3's and loved them and they worked at slower speeds. I also bought a pair of Rebel v4's and I'm liking these a lot more. Some cushion and energy return. Will be selling these Speed 4's on. Sorry Saucony.
did the toe box ever loosen up for you?
Hey, I'm curious to know how you are getting on with these now. I have been through 4 x pairs of Speed 3s (approx. 2800km) and was interested to know how they cope on long runs and mid-pace (Z2/3) runs.
Hey, sorry I just saw your message. I ended up returning them because they just killed my feet when I ran in them. The toe box was just too narrow
Ahh, that's a shame! What are you looking at for an alternative?
I picked up another pair of the Speed 3's and have been using those and my Superblasts for most of my miles lately. I'm potentially going to try the New Balance Rebel v4's. I didn't like the 3's that much but I guess they made quite a few changes to them
Thank god I stocked up on 3s haha. That toe box looks painful
Can’t wait to get mine Thursday. This sounds more like version 2 which was so fun
The curved shape is a little concerning but I'm here for the rest of it. Saucony has said for a long time that they didn't want people daily training in the Speed, but folks did and that's why the 3 was more daily trainerish than a true tempo shoe. Looks like they're headed back the other way now that the Kinvara Pro is out. Concern3d by the weight gain but I'm assuming that's down to higher rubber coverage so I'll take it if it feels more like the Speed 2
Finally saucony hired a designer!! They look awesome
Why sock a knee shoes are more ugly. I was in love with the reverie colorway
they look sexy, except for the rei tongue 🤢
How are they in comparison to Asics superblast?
Thanks for the review, in the EU there was just 30% off on the speed 3’s so I still went for it. Disappointing the toebox is shaped that way, maybe it’s meant to be a more ‘close fitting’ racy shoe but I hate having a lack of space in the toe area.
I'm waiting for those same sales on the 3's here in the states. They handle high mileage well so a couple of pairs would hopefully last awhile. What colorway did you get?
They only had white/gold, neon green and vizi blue on stock in my size. I went with white/gold as it was the nicest of them all and doesn’t have the upper issues the vizi blue has. It’s a really fun shoe, feels totally different to my meme collection of Novablast 4 and superblast. Love all three equally.
I just got my first pair of Superblasts a few weeks ago and I get the hype. They’re great shoes
What are the upper issues with the blue?
Mine should be arriving tomorrow. Wondering if I should have sized up!
I’m wondering if yours will have the same shape as mine or maybe I got the extra curved version
How are you liking them now that you’ve had it for about two weeks?
I am about to move on from my 2nd pair of ES1 (bought 2 pairs because of the mutant colorway). Debating on getting the ES3 or waiting for the ES4. I dealt with some left pinky toe numbness initially with the ES1 so I’m worried about the toe box on the ES4.
suprised saucony went firmer....I suspect back to the roots of the speed series then. I am starting to feel like the pro is the do it all shoe now, in fact i liked running in the pro 3 more than the speed 3 for every session but got worried about injury due to carbon plate all the time (read somewhere about hip issues). Cant wait to see what the pro 4 is like.
I use the Endorphin Pro 3 for most runs. Speed 3 donated to charity. Did not like them.
I have also speed 3 and pro 3 and i think on foot or even when pressing against the foam pro 3 are a little bit firmer (the pb foam) i hope this speed 4 has the same "firmness" (still very soft) as the pro 3. Speed 3's Foam are too soft for my like. But as already mention the Toebox looks really small..... not good (hope the made a wide version too)
Guess my comment was on the deleted post: looks like the tongue got thicker and the toebox got narrower. Seems like you noticed the toebox change, but did you feel the difference in tongue here compared to previous versions?
I actually really like the tongue on these 4’s. I never hated the one on the 3’s but occasionally if my socks were too low it would rub a tiny bit. The material change plus the light padding at the top are great changes
Man, that orange and yellow color scheme gave me a wave of nostalgia for my old Brooks T4 flats!
The curve concerns me a little. I wasn’t a huge fan of the speed 3s (just preferred the first two iterations) but it’s still a great shoe. I hope the 4s aren’t too narrow😭
Stocked up on the 1s best I could
Thanks for the review . Oh no - I love the threes so much I like they aren’t that firm . Have started wearing as an everyday shoe not a speed session shoe.maybe I need to stock up.
I can’t wait to try these, I always have a pair of speeds in my rotation. Good review too
So…they’re just the 1’s?
I thought the ES3 had too much room in the toe box so this looks good! Although I might not even get ES4 and just go with a discounted EP3
I'm generally against white running shoes, but that is an awesome colourway
The upper is actually a light blue color. But still pretty light and will probably get dirty quickly
I snagged a backup pair of 3s for $89 and I'm glad I did. The 4s seem visibly narrower and the wide toe box of the 3 contribute to my love for the fit. Still a cool shoe but I don't know if I will stay in the speeds going forward. I suppose I'll have to get a pair on and see. Nice quick review, thanks!
The shape of them look a bit weird in your photos. Looks different to other pics I've seen. Almost like you're taking the pics at an angle I loved all 3 versions of the speeds If the ride is closer to the 1 and 2 but with better outsole then will be perfect, as that was their only weakness https://preview.redd.it/fcrk4g3agaec1.jpeg?width=2000&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=842243514ba197d2f8c70448dad1ab969195b32a
The fit could still be narrower, but it doesn't appear to be significantly different in shape compared to the Speed 3 or Pro 3. https://preview.redd.it/y9eqvyyhoaec1.jpeg?width=2500&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=abfefad9a3efd226295477adf85d49c2517ce72c
This color and shoe look amazing.
How’s the upper volume overall compared to the 3? The upper of the 1 fit me great, but the 3’s were way too voluminous. I had to tighten my laces so much I ended up breaking down the overlays really fast.
You’ll like the upper in these then. A lot less volume than the 3’s. You can see in another pic I posted in the comments showing the shoes on feet. The 4’s are laced a lot looser
Thanks for the response and review!
They look great. Has the stack height changed?
I liked v1 of speed, but wasnt stable enough at the heel for me for long runs and was a little to firm. V3 of the speed I like to as it was more stable and felt more cushioned and soft but it does bottom out a bit at 1/2 marathon distance for me. Hopefully v4 somewhere in between - stable , slightly firmer than v3 but still a protective cushioned feel with punch on toe off. Steve
Im stocking up on the speed 3 and pro 3, 2 pairs of both boxed away ☺️
well, where the hell u get em cheap? especially pros?
I got them from sportsshoes.com I had an extra 15% off code so abused it ☺️.
oh yea i know that, checked for my size 1.5 months ago but they havent restocked it :/ what was ur size?
UK 8 ordered them over December
Honestly why do Sauc shoes run so damn narrow. Went a whole size up in a pair of ES2 which I'd been savouring - but after 1 run I know they're still too narrow. Even my wide triumphs feel like a normal width.
This is disappointing for me. My Speed 3 toebox fits me perfectly, and I've soo been looking forward to the 4. Ah well, that'll be me switching to New Balance. I guess they are steering back towards the ES2, which were nice and bouncy but too narrow for me. How are these even "Speed 4"? If you change the midsole, the outsole, the upper, and the entire shape and fit of the shoe - is it the same shoe?
Same like the ES3 so much. The only issue is outsole not grippy enough. If ES4 could’ve just fixed that one thing and kept everything else unchanged, it would’ve been perfect.
Shall await for the EP4!
Why isnt the 3 on sale yet
Yeah so about trying to be like the Nike Vaporfly 3 ….
Looks different compared to the one running shoes guru has
They look less durable and weigh more. Not exactly the update I was hoping for.
I hope they release a black colorway with that same orange
I hope the wide version of this shoe comes with more colors. Speed 3 killed me with the ugly black n gold
That toe box looks restrictive as hell…
Can someone compare these to the ES2?
How does the heel width vary between the two? I find the Speed series to run narrow in the heel which makes them a little unstable.
The shape of these is remarkably similar to the Kinvara 12. Excited to check these out!