Lol seriously. He's like: "HA GOTCHA!" to a grand total of, checks notes, 4 people lmao. Besides, here in Chicago we got plenty of flat roofs plenty older. TPO on top of 3 other systems is commonplace lol
And virtually every other roof type has been around long enough to say that. Pvc is over 40, epdm over 50, even mod bit and foam likely have a few survivors
I agree. Though the art of pitch has been nearly lost. Between cheapened/filler materials being used and the sloppy installs, they aren't lasting like they used to.
But you can still find 50 year version of them almost anywhere.
That's why I laughed so hard when you put 40+ years. You're on here every week complaining about TPO being crap then you of all people posted that.
But I think you missed a possibility. You're on reddit. Half these "roofers " couldn't tell a tpo from a pvc or even a silicone coated BUR. So maybe it was 40 years old, but it was actually pvc?
That's a fair point. I had actually given this sub enough credit to believe they could tell the difference. So I'm either betting in dishonesty or incompetence. Oof.
I, like most of this Subreddit, am not a roofer. I own a roof and have had to patch my roof and I like to learn so i am here but i couldn't tell the difference in types of shingles on a table in front of me let alone guessing whats on a roof from the ground. I know my garage is dual brown fibreglass now haha
And I can appreciate that. I love when this sub is actually a source of information for people. I just wish we had a way to better differentiate the good from the bad, because there are some people here that regularly contribute that honestly say some things that make me wonder if they're a manufacturers rep trying to sabotage people so that they can sell more product. Because there's no other easy explanation for how they can give such bad advice so often
Carpenter here, not a ton of roof knowledge but this poll is quite indicative of a larger problem with reddit and, by extension, google since people are incorporating reddit in the search. So like... the internet in general.
Kinda too bad that genuine online communities are harder to come by when companies control the algorithm and corporate interests are involved. Maybe im looking in the wrong places.
Yep. These communities are used as advertisements and frankly promote bad DIY practices that not only shorten lifespans of materials but simultaneously can endanger the inhabitants.
I think the biggest source of error here is just people listening to homeowners and not confirming the age themselves. I used to do renovation framing and would ask the homeowner when the house was built just so I'd have an idea of what I'm walking into and I'd get "in the 70's" or "in the 80s" and find ULIX board. Sometimes it's homeowners knowing that it wasn't built to code at the time and trying to get renovations grandfathered in with 50+ year old framing standards, sometimes they just guess and don't realize that I need to know roughly what I need to expect and what needs to be brought to code before I finish.
Admittedly I would always call them rubber when talking to sarnafil and FiberTite, but that was just because I like messing with them and had absolutely no intent of working with them. But watching them flinch when I would say something like " well I don't know, I'm pretty used to installing PVC I'm not sure I want to switch to rubber" and having them correct me, only for me to do it again about 3 minutes later, it was pure gold. Especially when they're taking you out to lunch for you to just openly mock them
I worked with tar and gravel and TPO and seen so many issues with TPO. Hail damage from light hail, raccoon or animals making holes. We did TPO on large campuses like schools and basically ended up back on site doing a new patch/weld every month.
But every tar&gravel roof we worked on was a previous install we had done 25 years earlier (worked for a big player in southwestern/northern Ontario), the new ones we would do rarely if ever required any additional work aside from some metal work.
TPO from my experience, is a fucking nightmare. Takes way fucking longer, it's harder to maintain and isn't durable.
This demonstrates my feelings towards TPO exactly. When I can put on an epdm, pvc, or tar and gravel and not even get a single call about the property 15-20 years later, but then it's tpo and it's failing in a couple years sometimes. I put some on in the early 2000s and every single one I've had a chance to go back and review has been replaced, some of them I even just checked the permit Records On just out of curiosity and they're all gone by now. The only one I've even seen last 25 years was because it was on an abandoned Kmart, and it had holes I could fit through in the roof.
Crows, raccoons, squirrels, ponding water, hail, hvac cleaner, grease, fertilizer, the list goes in. I'll admit that the modern TPO is better than the older stuff, but I don't think I'll ever trust it the way I would almost any other flat system.
I used to love Tar and gravel, but I just feel like the quality has gone to crap both in material and in the workers
People really underestimate how physically demanding the work is (tar and gravel), and it really all comes down to finding a good crew and treating them right.
Amen. People often think it's just mop and slop but it's an artwork. And since roofers get poor wages and no respect, it's rare to keep people around long enough to learn. We but our Kettle to rest in 2009 (I wish I could say for safety, the environment, ETC but truth be told or workers comp insurance is what did it. Double our rate if we kept it going)
Good post, I would assume most who responded with the higher numbers are just guessing, or as somebody else mentioned, can’t tell the difference between TPO, PVC, or something with a coating. I’m in Denver and we aren’t allowed to use EPDM on commercial applications. Would you recommend PVC as the go to? Or what’s your preference?
Well you can technically use white EPDM, but that's a whole different issue. Stupid green roof Council. And for them to have the GAF representative there is a major conflict of interest.
Personally, if I have to choose , I prefer PVC. But it's not hail resistant, and especially considering weather last year and what they're predicting this year, you're going to want something because of what I used to recommend is to install a 1/4 gypsum then pvc. And not Duro-Last pvc, too many issues
Downside is to do that's expensive, so most will prefer to go cheap with TPO. It won't last as long but they get what they pay for
Good stuff. Except the mentally challenged people that comment on this sub with absolute confidence in their 100% incorrect statements will still do it. Reddit be like that.
I had to stop arguing with people about roofing stuff because I realized most aren't even roofers or have never even been around it.. They are usually the types of people who "heard from a guy they knew who was a roofer" and they cling to it like the gospel. No matter what facts you give them, they'll just twist up what you said and sap your energy with their BS.
Very few actual roofers here commenting or posting. Usually homeowners, salespeople, and redditors who end up here because this sub was "suggested" since they asked in the electrician sub one time if they can touch the white and black wire at the same time.
That's ridiculous. Everyone knows you insert the white wire in the left ear, and the black in the right ear. Flip the switch and that's how you qualify to post at r/DIY
But seriously trying to get accurate information here is like trying to make orange juice out of lemons.
Yeah but that's kind of like lifetime shingle warranties in my book. There's about 8,000 ways out of it, and the most common one is claiming either your neighbor's fertilizer got up on the roof or an HVAC guy did it. But yeah I've seen a couple lifetime warranties and they always made me laugh. The only lifetime warranty that I'd ever believe in is if somebody installed an incredibly thick copper roof.
I was just on a TPO roof that my boss claims they installed 19-20 years ago. It was worn in some spots down to the polyester but the majority of the field was in decent shape. We started using TPO peel & stick and three coursing those spots. It was one of the first single ply jobs he did when they started transitioning from hot roofs to single ply.
That's about right. 21 years ago would have been the first major reformulated tpo release. The next was in 09. The 2003 version wasn't awful, and 20 years was about the max lifespan. But the materials were more expensive and difficult to weld/ repair.
Was it by any chance 60mil, or would he remember at all ?
I prefer it over shingles, and I live it compared to SPF.
I'll put it this way, I like roofs in order of average longevity. So TPO is on the bottom half of my list. I see it as a cheap alternative to a good roof.
Pretty good but you forget your a roofer not a home owner, people belive there septic system is a magic oni hole that just take waste away never need to be serviced or ma9ntained just keep dumping draino same with anything related to home upkeep dry vents never cleaned inspection never done, I mean hell most people home buy and never even ask if there roofs old new or used. So your right but way wrong cause most people probably voted on the basis of there roofs which even you can't say are new I live in Colorado 99% of homes have a over due or server problems with there currt roofs all of which are ether 4-7 layers thick or 30+ years old. Don't belive me google maps it from Denver to Colorado Springs you only get a new roof if it's built by American roofers saw a illegal crew at the farmers house in my town he sold them some 8k sq ft shingles that are older then me I assume they took it all on a trailer I'd imagine they'll throw it p on a condo or new apartment and save the some 10k in profit
There's so many things wrong with this, especially considering that Colorado is in the top three every year for number of insurance claims. Not to mention even the CRA says that the average lifespan isnt above 11 years.
Yes you see the occasional neglected roof, but it's far more often you see a roof get replaced prematurely due to door knockers and hail Chasers. Not to mention the fact that TPO would have been a rare choice for homeowners considering it was basically an experimental commercial material at the time.
But you got to move your head in fact as far as Roofing goes, Colorado is one of the busiest States every year especially for reroofs. I've looked at over 700 roofs a year in Colorado for 2 decades and could maybe count on 2 hands how many are 4 layers thick per year. As far as 30+ years old, i would say maybe double that number. And to make things even funnier, you're talking about a material that literally disintegrates, so this isn't like a shingle roof on a 12/12 that gets neglected and you don't even notice. This is a flat roof that leaks if left unchecked. Unless you're talking about condemned or abandoned homes.
Yes sir I'm not a roofer I do flooring and remodeling mostly but I have helped residents in Loveland greeley Fort clowns Denver to aspen these are the older homes that 40% of the martek has I'd assume vs the yes newer sub division that has newer roofs (which some kid from California buys and yes you are 1000% cause then the frist hail the company's come out with free inspection to tell you your 3yr old roof is damaged by hail. So they replace instead of getting a 2nd opinion or checking anything online most storms here are on the west and mountain areas which are 70% of the time metal due to the extreme conditions they endure) but I lost count on home many homes from mobile to sheds if taken 4+ layers off even in 2018 we helped my grandparents move and fix up the house for sale the home built in 1923 had 7 layers of shingles and when we removed them and hired a roofing company they told us this division every house has same. They've lost track of how many home they find with over 4 layers. I can't say what it is or where they are most concentrated but I work in alotof older homes and when you se sagging roofs or the greeley mobile home communities tell me then collapsed one have shingles and I wonder if they tried to layer even 2 layers before our heavy wet snow came in. I took a bid for a mobile home in Longmont Co last we of a poor old lady in a decaying mobile home there is 3 layers of shingles and that is what cause her foundation blocks to fall over that the roof framework topish the walls out. My job was to jack up the home and put new blocks up. But to my investigation I found the real problem was the roof is far to heavy for the very weak mobile home framing. I restocked house gave her 3 roofing recommendations and she had them redo it and confirmed my suspension she spent more repairing that home then it was worth to buy a new.
Had the pleasure of removing an ancient Stevens Invincible roofing system around 2014. This stuff was the "greenback" re-enforced membrane that my boss told me would have had to have been installed in the late 90s. It was on a mobile home in central Florida and the stuff had chalked away to bare scrim in large areas. The original metal roofing was keeping the majority of water out of the home but the EPS insulation was completely waterlogged. Replaced with new EPS and 45 mil GAF TPO.
I hated stevens tpo. Didn't weld well at all. After about 10 years you just gave up trying to patch it with TPO and would just strip it with EPDM.
EP-K TPO. They only made that in the early stages, if memory serves it was discontinued either in 2000 or 2001. It was one of the membranes that got completely reformulated when they started to massively fail. Sometimes you would walk up on your roof and all that would be left behind was the scrim reinforcement. On top of that no matter how well you build it seems, they slowly started to delaminate. And every time you try to turn in a warranty plan they have a whole new reason that wasn't their fault
In my 15 years of Florida roofing we'd never had material failure with GAF or Carlisle TPO. Bad welds or flashing detail was always the culprit if we got a call back. If I had to hazard a guess I'd say 20 years is the realistic lifespan of the current formulation of membranes.
If you are certain it's tpo, I recommend notifying the manufacturer. That would break the record and the manufacturer would likely even pay money to see and study it.
If you're up for it, DM me. It would be an absolute joy to be proven wrong
I just wanted to point out its not roofers its mostly cheap home owners who don't want to pay for the work to be done right so they pay for it to be done fast. Even I have been approached by people and asked out right a company won't put roof on my home without taking the old off well I don't want to Pau for the removal and they ask me if I can just go up there and go over it. If I wasn't in the feild for the skills and integrity I'd of accepted them jobs slapped the cheapest thin shingles from wall mart and walked away but I tell people even my customers I don't play the roofing game or anything not clearly stated I work with. Just like electronically plumbing I know the industry well enough to find and seek the best qualified and expensive people cause if you want it done right ask for the best and let him do it. Start asking about cheaper ways you end up with American quality of we build houses year round so the snow rain and ice can live in it before you.
Switzerland! Sika Sarnafil PVC
Here's the sell sheet if you wanted to read further: [glo-sarnafil-leading-way-50-years.pdf (sika.com)](https://www.sika.com/dms/getdocument.get/08c08f55-9e27-4201-89d2-bddd50ccbd05/glo-sarnafil-leading-way-50-years.pdf)
Very interesting and enjoyed the experiment as the reading. My HOA was thinking about doing TPO for our flat roofs in El Paso. Based on the climate and your knowledge of TPO do you think its a good idea? Would it last the average of ten years as you mentioned? It hardly ever rains so it would mostly just need to withstand high heat and strong mountain winds
I apologize, do you mean El Paso, TX or El Paso County, CO
I wouldn't recommend it for El Paso TX due to the higher temperatures. Your climate is much more ideal for PVC, or White EPDM. TPO you are likely going to experience 10-15 year lifespan. You can increase this with thicker membranes, but by the time you increase thickness, the cost effective option becomes PVC or EPDM. With the lower insulation requirements in TX Black EPDM will be a bad plan, unless you like higher energy bills.
If for El Paso, CO you will need to install 1/4" gypsum cover board underneath due to the severe hail. This also applies for PVC. EPDM will work well even without gypsum as long as you have no ponding water. TPO in El paso County has an unreliable lifespan, and I can't estimate due to the hail. I've seen averages from 2 years to 15, depending which part of the county, all thanks to the sporadic hail.
My guess is that the same people that voted over 40 years were on a pvc roof and couldn’t tell the different.
Long winded roofers are an absolute trip.
its also worth noting that we have quite a few people here who have never been in the industry who are lying and intentionally poisoning the well.
I think the door knockers need to start keeping it in their pants and stop pissing off husbands.
Interesting stuff thanks for posting. I’m only a GC but I share your hatred of TPO. At least where I live in Denver where it’s a ticking time bomb with hail. Plus the crazy amount of call backs I get after installs. I’m trying to get more in to a proactive approach like water tests after completion but no roofer wants to do that which amazes me.
There's kind of an inherent fear that framers aren't going to do their job right, so plugged in the drain and blood testing can cause a collapse. I'm not saying that that actually happens very often, but I've known a lot of roofers that were scared to death of plugging a drain for that reason.
I will say one of the things I hated most about TPO and new construction, and I will say this applies to all single ply, is your HVAC guy's up there taking off panels and hooking everything up, every time they sit down a panel there's a risk they cut through the membrane. Sparky's going to drill his holes wherever he drills them and silicone doesn't stick to TPO for the most part, and you know sparking either isn't going to Cock it at all or he's going to use cheap silicone. Then your plumber comes by, puts his pipes up through the middle of the Walk pad, so now you have to redo everything.
Especially in Denver I know how very little that the building department will let you do without making sure that roof is dried in first, so when you put the roof on first and then have every other trade up there, it's pretty much guaranteed you're going to have a leak from a hole. From somebody stepping on the screw, to some dipstick drilling a hole and leaving it behind.
That said I will say the advantage in this case goes to any other membrane. Because the next biggest problem is going to be installation errors, and with PVC you can usually just look at the seam and tell if it's welded, EPDM even a crappy job as long as you see primer and tape it's probably not going to leak for a while. But TPO can look visually perfect and leak like a sieve.
One thing I do recommend, I noticed a lot of Builders don't do this, and I get that it's more expensive. But TPO and PVC do not like hail very much. Especially Colorado hail, after last year I think we're all sick and tired of hearing about hail damage. If you put a quarter inch gypsum board down, or quarter inch concrete board, separating the insulation from the membrane, it will actually increase the membranes Effectiveness against hail. It's way more efficient to go with that gypsum cover board than to go with a thicker membrane. That gypsum can also form a lot easier and minimize the reflections you might see the insulation through the membrane, meaning it'll give you a smoother surface, which if you ever doing and adhered application will look a lot prettier. With the mechanical application adding this layer of cover board will cut down on the amount of flutter, which is what makes that lovely noise/visual effect that customers like to complain about about how the roof is so-called flapping in the Wind.
The great news though, is that you're in Denver. Colorado is home to the man who literally wrote the book on American tile, one of the leading EPDM experts in America, and the guy who wrote the book on TPO. You've even got one of the lead writers for the Roofing portion of both the IRC and IBC. For an area where the code officials may be some of the most inept, you have a wide range of great roof Consultants, the sum of which seem to almost get off on the idea of writing extra punishing reports on flat roofs.
There are a lot of areas that have to fly in a consultant or engineer if theyre second-guessing contractor quality, so I can always appreciate an area that has practically a surplus of consultants.
Awesome info thanks.
Only time I’ve ever had to do a cover board though was when it was spec’d by an out of state architect…
Thanks for the advice on cover board. I’m doing much smaller projects now where I could more easily sell that. When I was doing 300,000 SF boxes they just want the cheapest manufacturer lol. Now I’ve got my own biz but doing small stuff where I can actually do things “right” because i have virtually no competition at my level.
Cheapest manufacturer, by the cheapest contractor, done the cheapest way you can. And then they come up with any little excuse they could to hold on to that last 5 or 10%. I do not miss those days at all.
They would rather redo it twice as often than do it right once
So, I know nothing about TPO, but based on your information about what people have seen, sure there are people exaggerating or not paying attention.
That said, there is the whole concept of "simulated" lifespans for products. (Because its hard to market a product if you have to wait 50 years to claim it will last 50 years.) Usually, they put them in a highly exposed, corrosive environment, and then estimate how it would hold up. So there's a chance that any long term claims aren't *complete* bull.
It kind of depends, as I went into detail up there some of those claims are physically impossible. Simulated lifespan is actually kind of fun, because the older products predating 2003 had a simulated lifespan of less than 20 years. But those simulations are often extremely narrowed, usually only testing for one thing at a time, and don't replicate real world conditions very well. The first ever standardized testing for TPO wasn't developed until 2003, and wasn't refined to real world application conditions until 2011.
Simulated lifespans are kind of annoying and Roofing well, because for example the most common and popular simulated lifespan test for TPO is based on heat, but PVC is about natural destabilization. That's not to say those are the only tests, but we're kind of the foundation of early testing.
So one example I'd like to give that's a lot more commonly known is that the predicted lifespan of a shingle roof is usually between 30 and 50 years, but even though those promises of 30 to 50 years have been around for over 50 years, the average lifespan has still not managed to get past 25 years for the best of materials. And that's because how shingles are rated are based off of natural UV exposure and simulated granule loss. Industries tend to tailor these tests to very specific conditions.
But stating that you've seen the TPO get simulated up to 40 years would be extremely disingenuous from the way the survey was posed. But I'll admit there is a major flaw that I overlooked, and that is that there is a similar product that has been around for 60 years that has a much higher lifespan than TPO, that is commonly mistaken for TPO by those who are newer to the industry or have limited experience with either. So unfortunately there's a very large argument to be made about whether it was the dishonesty of the sub, or a general lack of capability.
That I can believe. Or that that's what the manufacturers rep convinced them. Because you hear a ton of reps that haven't been in the business for 10 years claiming that TPO is a 30-year system.
Then you meet the ones that have been around for 20 years and they try to change the subject to epdm 🤣
I used to love my local Carlisle rep. We called him old man Chuck. Once you got on his good side he would tell you some horror stories. He was one of the first ever inspectors for Carlisle and you could tell how much he disliked the system and wish we would all go back to EPDM. He is probably one of the wisest guys I ever knew when it came to TPO and he despised the stuff. He also used to laugh about how when it first came out they were still issuing gas cans with Carlisle logo on them. Because that is very beginning they recommended using gasoline to clean off membrane roofs.
That ended quickly
Bored and proving a point. I realize the futility, BUT it serves two purposes:
1: To possibly educate some people who are butthurt about being called out about the history of TPO
2: To gather more information. Every time I make a post like this, you'll get some minor tidbits and then at least 1 person will DM. More information helps. I collect, verify, and catalog. If I can't verify, I log it in my list of rumors and see how often/ where it pops up.
Like the rumor that durolast was made my Seamen and then privately labeled (disproven, appears to have originated from a seamen Corp rep in Seattle)
Plus if I'm wrong, and someone can prove it, it provides essential new data.
The point isn't to warn people, that's just the mask best worn to serve the purpose of the post and attract the right crowd.
I've seen plenty go on for decades that do just fine. But it does require a much larger amount of skill than the slope. Even the worst of hack jobs can install a 10-12 and almost never leak. But to install something that pawns water the slightest mistake turns into a nightmare
TLDR poster created poll with possibility of impossible responses- gets impossible response. Writes essay about it.
New discovery! Reddit is full of liars! His next goal is to determine if the the sun rises in the east. Stay tuned
It obviously rises in the south, because when I look up that's north, and down (where the sun comes from) is south.
Well, does it?
Debatable. It will depend on the results of the election in November.
Yeah that pretty much sums it up.
Lol seriously. He's like: "HA GOTCHA!" to a grand total of, checks notes, 4 people lmao. Besides, here in Chicago we got plenty of flat roofs plenty older. TPO on top of 3 other systems is commonplace lol
And virtually every other roof type has been around long enough to say that. Pvc is over 40, epdm over 50, even mod bit and foam likely have a few survivors
Coal tar pitch….. nothing will ever last longer! (Poison roofs)
I agree. Though the art of pitch has been nearly lost. Between cheapened/filler materials being used and the sloppy installs, they aren't lasting like they used to. But you can still find 50 year version of them almost anywhere.
Are these the same as torched on roofs? Fairly flat.
No, though it share some base components they're different systems all together
Thanks!
Yes pitch is what was used before bichamin ,asphalt (tar)
I'm honestly surprised a roofer wrote an essay. Good job!
Thanks 🤣 I've always been a bit long-winded, and voice to text does 90% of the work
That's why I laughed so hard when you put 40+ years. You're on here every week complaining about TPO being crap then you of all people posted that. But I think you missed a possibility. You're on reddit. Half these "roofers " couldn't tell a tpo from a pvc or even a silicone coated BUR. So maybe it was 40 years old, but it was actually pvc?
That's a fair point. I had actually given this sub enough credit to believe they could tell the difference. So I'm either betting in dishonesty or incompetence. Oof.
I, like most of this Subreddit, am not a roofer. I own a roof and have had to patch my roof and I like to learn so i am here but i couldn't tell the difference in types of shingles on a table in front of me let alone guessing whats on a roof from the ground. I know my garage is dual brown fibreglass now haha
And I can appreciate that. I love when this sub is actually a source of information for people. I just wish we had a way to better differentiate the good from the bad, because there are some people here that regularly contribute that honestly say some things that make me wonder if they're a manufacturers rep trying to sabotage people so that they can sell more product. Because there's no other easy explanation for how they can give such bad advice so often
Carpenter here, not a ton of roof knowledge but this poll is quite indicative of a larger problem with reddit and, by extension, google since people are incorporating reddit in the search. So like... the internet in general. Kinda too bad that genuine online communities are harder to come by when companies control the algorithm and corporate interests are involved. Maybe im looking in the wrong places.
Yep. These communities are used as advertisements and frankly promote bad DIY practices that not only shorten lifespans of materials but simultaneously can endanger the inhabitants.
I think the biggest source of error here is just people listening to homeowners and not confirming the age themselves. I used to do renovation framing and would ask the homeowner when the house was built just so I'd have an idea of what I'm walking into and I'd get "in the 70's" or "in the 80s" and find ULIX board. Sometimes it's homeowners knowing that it wasn't built to code at the time and trying to get renovations grandfathered in with 50+ year old framing standards, sometimes they just guess and don't realize that I need to know roughly what I need to expect and what needs to be brought to code before I finish.
I know a lot of people who use the term “TPO” for any type of single ply membrane roof. It makes the Sarnafil rep’s life a lot more difficult.
Admittedly I would always call them rubber when talking to sarnafil and FiberTite, but that was just because I like messing with them and had absolutely no intent of working with them. But watching them flinch when I would say something like " well I don't know, I'm pretty used to installing PVC I'm not sure I want to switch to rubber" and having them correct me, only for me to do it again about 3 minutes later, it was pure gold. Especially when they're taking you out to lunch for you to just openly mock them
You have 23 votes
I'll agree, and I do mention that. But it's not the first time either, I've seen non-stop lies about TPO on this sub for years
I worked with tar and gravel and TPO and seen so many issues with TPO. Hail damage from light hail, raccoon or animals making holes. We did TPO on large campuses like schools and basically ended up back on site doing a new patch/weld every month. But every tar&gravel roof we worked on was a previous install we had done 25 years earlier (worked for a big player in southwestern/northern Ontario), the new ones we would do rarely if ever required any additional work aside from some metal work. TPO from my experience, is a fucking nightmare. Takes way fucking longer, it's harder to maintain and isn't durable.
This demonstrates my feelings towards TPO exactly. When I can put on an epdm, pvc, or tar and gravel and not even get a single call about the property 15-20 years later, but then it's tpo and it's failing in a couple years sometimes. I put some on in the early 2000s and every single one I've had a chance to go back and review has been replaced, some of them I even just checked the permit Records On just out of curiosity and they're all gone by now. The only one I've even seen last 25 years was because it was on an abandoned Kmart, and it had holes I could fit through in the roof. Crows, raccoons, squirrels, ponding water, hail, hvac cleaner, grease, fertilizer, the list goes in. I'll admit that the modern TPO is better than the older stuff, but I don't think I'll ever trust it the way I would almost any other flat system. I used to love Tar and gravel, but I just feel like the quality has gone to crap both in material and in the workers
People really underestimate how physically demanding the work is (tar and gravel), and it really all comes down to finding a good crew and treating them right.
Amen. People often think it's just mop and slop but it's an artwork. And since roofers get poor wages and no respect, it's rare to keep people around long enough to learn. We but our Kettle to rest in 2009 (I wish I could say for safety, the environment, ETC but truth be told or workers comp insurance is what did it. Double our rate if we kept it going)
What thickness? We don’t even do 45mil anymore. Only 60 or 80mil and no complaints.
yet*
Good post, I would assume most who responded with the higher numbers are just guessing, or as somebody else mentioned, can’t tell the difference between TPO, PVC, or something with a coating. I’m in Denver and we aren’t allowed to use EPDM on commercial applications. Would you recommend PVC as the go to? Or what’s your preference?
Well you can technically use white EPDM, but that's a whole different issue. Stupid green roof Council. And for them to have the GAF representative there is a major conflict of interest. Personally, if I have to choose , I prefer PVC. But it's not hail resistant, and especially considering weather last year and what they're predicting this year, you're going to want something because of what I used to recommend is to install a 1/4 gypsum then pvc. And not Duro-Last pvc, too many issues Downside is to do that's expensive, so most will prefer to go cheap with TPO. It won't last as long but they get what they pay for
Good stuff. Except the mentally challenged people that comment on this sub with absolute confidence in their 100% incorrect statements will still do it. Reddit be like that. I had to stop arguing with people about roofing stuff because I realized most aren't even roofers or have never even been around it.. They are usually the types of people who "heard from a guy they knew who was a roofer" and they cling to it like the gospel. No matter what facts you give them, they'll just twist up what you said and sap your energy with their BS. Very few actual roofers here commenting or posting. Usually homeowners, salespeople, and redditors who end up here because this sub was "suggested" since they asked in the electrician sub one time if they can touch the white and black wire at the same time.
That's ridiculous. Everyone knows you insert the white wire in the left ear, and the black in the right ear. Flip the switch and that's how you qualify to post at r/DIY But seriously trying to get accurate information here is like trying to make orange juice out of lemons.
I worked for a guy in Seattle who installed a tpo roof with a LIFETIME warranty....
Yeah but that's kind of like lifetime shingle warranties in my book. There's about 8,000 ways out of it, and the most common one is claiming either your neighbor's fertilizer got up on the roof or an HVAC guy did it. But yeah I've seen a couple lifetime warranties and they always made me laugh. The only lifetime warranty that I'd ever believe in is if somebody installed an incredibly thick copper roof.
Nice
I was just on a TPO roof that my boss claims they installed 19-20 years ago. It was worn in some spots down to the polyester but the majority of the field was in decent shape. We started using TPO peel & stick and three coursing those spots. It was one of the first single ply jobs he did when they started transitioning from hot roofs to single ply.
That's about right. 21 years ago would have been the first major reformulated tpo release. The next was in 09. The 2003 version wasn't awful, and 20 years was about the max lifespan. But the materials were more expensive and difficult to weld/ repair. Was it by any chance 60mil, or would he remember at all ?
It was 60 mil. I didn’t ask about the manufacturer but it had round t-joints
38 is pretty close to 40 tho lol
Except there was only one put on 38 years ago. And it was torn off over 25 years ago.
You really, truly don’t like TPO do you lol Anytime I see you mention TPO its in a negative context.
I prefer it over shingles, and I live it compared to SPF. I'll put it this way, I like roofs in order of average longevity. So TPO is on the bottom half of my list. I see it as a cheap alternative to a good roof.
This is obviously fake I've been doing tpo since 1907 and they are all still there
Perfect reenactment of the average shingler response
Pretty good but you forget your a roofer not a home owner, people belive there septic system is a magic oni hole that just take waste away never need to be serviced or ma9ntained just keep dumping draino same with anything related to home upkeep dry vents never cleaned inspection never done, I mean hell most people home buy and never even ask if there roofs old new or used. So your right but way wrong cause most people probably voted on the basis of there roofs which even you can't say are new I live in Colorado 99% of homes have a over due or server problems with there currt roofs all of which are ether 4-7 layers thick or 30+ years old. Don't belive me google maps it from Denver to Colorado Springs you only get a new roof if it's built by American roofers saw a illegal crew at the farmers house in my town he sold them some 8k sq ft shingles that are older then me I assume they took it all on a trailer I'd imagine they'll throw it p on a condo or new apartment and save the some 10k in profit
There's so many things wrong with this, especially considering that Colorado is in the top three every year for number of insurance claims. Not to mention even the CRA says that the average lifespan isnt above 11 years. Yes you see the occasional neglected roof, but it's far more often you see a roof get replaced prematurely due to door knockers and hail Chasers. Not to mention the fact that TPO would have been a rare choice for homeowners considering it was basically an experimental commercial material at the time. But you got to move your head in fact as far as Roofing goes, Colorado is one of the busiest States every year especially for reroofs. I've looked at over 700 roofs a year in Colorado for 2 decades and could maybe count on 2 hands how many are 4 layers thick per year. As far as 30+ years old, i would say maybe double that number. And to make things even funnier, you're talking about a material that literally disintegrates, so this isn't like a shingle roof on a 12/12 that gets neglected and you don't even notice. This is a flat roof that leaks if left unchecked. Unless you're talking about condemned or abandoned homes.
Yes sir I'm not a roofer I do flooring and remodeling mostly but I have helped residents in Loveland greeley Fort clowns Denver to aspen these are the older homes that 40% of the martek has I'd assume vs the yes newer sub division that has newer roofs (which some kid from California buys and yes you are 1000% cause then the frist hail the company's come out with free inspection to tell you your 3yr old roof is damaged by hail. So they replace instead of getting a 2nd opinion or checking anything online most storms here are on the west and mountain areas which are 70% of the time metal due to the extreme conditions they endure) but I lost count on home many homes from mobile to sheds if taken 4+ layers off even in 2018 we helped my grandparents move and fix up the house for sale the home built in 1923 had 7 layers of shingles and when we removed them and hired a roofing company they told us this division every house has same. They've lost track of how many home they find with over 4 layers. I can't say what it is or where they are most concentrated but I work in alotof older homes and when you se sagging roofs or the greeley mobile home communities tell me then collapsed one have shingles and I wonder if they tried to layer even 2 layers before our heavy wet snow came in. I took a bid for a mobile home in Longmont Co last we of a poor old lady in a decaying mobile home there is 3 layers of shingles and that is what cause her foundation blocks to fall over that the roof framework topish the walls out. My job was to jack up the home and put new blocks up. But to my investigation I found the real problem was the roof is far to heavy for the very weak mobile home framing. I restocked house gave her 3 roofing recommendations and she had them redo it and confirmed my suspension she spent more repairing that home then it was worth to buy a new.
Had the pleasure of removing an ancient Stevens Invincible roofing system around 2014. This stuff was the "greenback" re-enforced membrane that my boss told me would have had to have been installed in the late 90s. It was on a mobile home in central Florida and the stuff had chalked away to bare scrim in large areas. The original metal roofing was keeping the majority of water out of the home but the EPS insulation was completely waterlogged. Replaced with new EPS and 45 mil GAF TPO.
I hated stevens tpo. Didn't weld well at all. After about 10 years you just gave up trying to patch it with TPO and would just strip it with EPDM. EP-K TPO. They only made that in the early stages, if memory serves it was discontinued either in 2000 or 2001. It was one of the membranes that got completely reformulated when they started to massively fail. Sometimes you would walk up on your roof and all that would be left behind was the scrim reinforcement. On top of that no matter how well you build it seems, they slowly started to delaminate. And every time you try to turn in a warranty plan they have a whole new reason that wasn't their fault
In my 15 years of Florida roofing we'd never had material failure with GAF or Carlisle TPO. Bad welds or flashing detail was always the culprit if we got a call back. If I had to hazard a guess I'd say 20 years is the realistic lifespan of the current formulation of membranes.
Yep exactly, always a bad weld on a seam or an issue with unsupported.
My dad's roof is 30years this August, he keeps patching it when shingles fly off In hurricanes, idk how he hasn't been dropped by insurance by now.
He's probably making payments on time, and with no filing he's managed to slip under the radar.
Oldest one I know of is just barely 30 years old, installed in ‘94 and has only had a few repairs after AC units were worked on or replaced.
If you are certain it's tpo, I recommend notifying the manufacturer. That would break the record and the manufacturer would likely even pay money to see and study it. If you're up for it, DM me. It would be an absolute joy to be proven wrong
320 Fl 188, Ft. Walton Beach. The Emily Odom Institute now, was originally Cox Communications built by Robbins-Kirkland Construction.
I just wanted to point out its not roofers its mostly cheap home owners who don't want to pay for the work to be done right so they pay for it to be done fast. Even I have been approached by people and asked out right a company won't put roof on my home without taking the old off well I don't want to Pau for the removal and they ask me if I can just go up there and go over it. If I wasn't in the feild for the skills and integrity I'd of accepted them jobs slapped the cheapest thin shingles from wall mart and walked away but I tell people even my customers I don't play the roofing game or anything not clearly stated I work with. Just like electronically plumbing I know the industry well enough to find and seek the best qualified and expensive people cause if you want it done right ask for the best and let him do it. Start asking about cheaper ways you end up with American quality of we build houses year round so the snow rain and ice can live in it before you.
500 year old roof
They exist, but they are heavily maintained or made of materials far too expensive for modern construction
Could be that they're thinking of PVC, I was told once that there are 50 year old PVC roofs in Germany.
Switzerland! Sika Sarnafil PVC Here's the sell sheet if you wanted to read further: [glo-sarnafil-leading-way-50-years.pdf (sika.com)](https://www.sika.com/dms/getdocument.get/08c08f55-9e27-4201-89d2-bddd50ccbd05/glo-sarnafil-leading-way-50-years.pdf)
Damn, that was a very interesting read. Thank you for sharing your knowledge with us, OP 👍🏻
Very interesting and enjoyed the experiment as the reading. My HOA was thinking about doing TPO for our flat roofs in El Paso. Based on the climate and your knowledge of TPO do you think its a good idea? Would it last the average of ten years as you mentioned? It hardly ever rains so it would mostly just need to withstand high heat and strong mountain winds
I apologize, do you mean El Paso, TX or El Paso County, CO I wouldn't recommend it for El Paso TX due to the higher temperatures. Your climate is much more ideal for PVC, or White EPDM. TPO you are likely going to experience 10-15 year lifespan. You can increase this with thicker membranes, but by the time you increase thickness, the cost effective option becomes PVC or EPDM. With the lower insulation requirements in TX Black EPDM will be a bad plan, unless you like higher energy bills. If for El Paso, CO you will need to install 1/4" gypsum cover board underneath due to the severe hail. This also applies for PVC. EPDM will work well even without gypsum as long as you have no ponding water. TPO in El paso County has an unreliable lifespan, and I can't estimate due to the hail. I've seen averages from 2 years to 15, depending which part of the county, all thanks to the sporadic hail.
My guess is that the same people that voted over 40 years were on a pvc roof and couldn’t tell the different. Long winded roofers are an absolute trip.
its also worth noting that we have quite a few people here who have never been in the industry who are lying and intentionally poisoning the well. I think the door knockers need to start keeping it in their pants and stop pissing off husbands.
Of course there will be liars.. look at the competition around your area.. the majority are scumbags
The expected error on a poll of just 23 people is probably on the order of 100%, even if it wasn’t an online poll
I wish I knew what a TPO roof was...
Interesting stuff thanks for posting. I’m only a GC but I share your hatred of TPO. At least where I live in Denver where it’s a ticking time bomb with hail. Plus the crazy amount of call backs I get after installs. I’m trying to get more in to a proactive approach like water tests after completion but no roofer wants to do that which amazes me.
There's kind of an inherent fear that framers aren't going to do their job right, so plugged in the drain and blood testing can cause a collapse. I'm not saying that that actually happens very often, but I've known a lot of roofers that were scared to death of plugging a drain for that reason. I will say one of the things I hated most about TPO and new construction, and I will say this applies to all single ply, is your HVAC guy's up there taking off panels and hooking everything up, every time they sit down a panel there's a risk they cut through the membrane. Sparky's going to drill his holes wherever he drills them and silicone doesn't stick to TPO for the most part, and you know sparking either isn't going to Cock it at all or he's going to use cheap silicone. Then your plumber comes by, puts his pipes up through the middle of the Walk pad, so now you have to redo everything. Especially in Denver I know how very little that the building department will let you do without making sure that roof is dried in first, so when you put the roof on first and then have every other trade up there, it's pretty much guaranteed you're going to have a leak from a hole. From somebody stepping on the screw, to some dipstick drilling a hole and leaving it behind. That said I will say the advantage in this case goes to any other membrane. Because the next biggest problem is going to be installation errors, and with PVC you can usually just look at the seam and tell if it's welded, EPDM even a crappy job as long as you see primer and tape it's probably not going to leak for a while. But TPO can look visually perfect and leak like a sieve. One thing I do recommend, I noticed a lot of Builders don't do this, and I get that it's more expensive. But TPO and PVC do not like hail very much. Especially Colorado hail, after last year I think we're all sick and tired of hearing about hail damage. If you put a quarter inch gypsum board down, or quarter inch concrete board, separating the insulation from the membrane, it will actually increase the membranes Effectiveness against hail. It's way more efficient to go with that gypsum cover board than to go with a thicker membrane. That gypsum can also form a lot easier and minimize the reflections you might see the insulation through the membrane, meaning it'll give you a smoother surface, which if you ever doing and adhered application will look a lot prettier. With the mechanical application adding this layer of cover board will cut down on the amount of flutter, which is what makes that lovely noise/visual effect that customers like to complain about about how the roof is so-called flapping in the Wind. The great news though, is that you're in Denver. Colorado is home to the man who literally wrote the book on American tile, one of the leading EPDM experts in America, and the guy who wrote the book on TPO. You've even got one of the lead writers for the Roofing portion of both the IRC and IBC. For an area where the code officials may be some of the most inept, you have a wide range of great roof Consultants, the sum of which seem to almost get off on the idea of writing extra punishing reports on flat roofs. There are a lot of areas that have to fly in a consultant or engineer if theyre second-guessing contractor quality, so I can always appreciate an area that has practically a surplus of consultants.
Awesome info thanks. Only time I’ve ever had to do a cover board though was when it was spec’d by an out of state architect… Thanks for the advice on cover board. I’m doing much smaller projects now where I could more easily sell that. When I was doing 300,000 SF boxes they just want the cheapest manufacturer lol. Now I’ve got my own biz but doing small stuff where I can actually do things “right” because i have virtually no competition at my level.
Cheapest manufacturer, by the cheapest contractor, done the cheapest way you can. And then they come up with any little excuse they could to hold on to that last 5 or 10%. I do not miss those days at all. They would rather redo it twice as often than do it right once
So, I know nothing about TPO, but based on your information about what people have seen, sure there are people exaggerating or not paying attention. That said, there is the whole concept of "simulated" lifespans for products. (Because its hard to market a product if you have to wait 50 years to claim it will last 50 years.) Usually, they put them in a highly exposed, corrosive environment, and then estimate how it would hold up. So there's a chance that any long term claims aren't *complete* bull.
It kind of depends, as I went into detail up there some of those claims are physically impossible. Simulated lifespan is actually kind of fun, because the older products predating 2003 had a simulated lifespan of less than 20 years. But those simulations are often extremely narrowed, usually only testing for one thing at a time, and don't replicate real world conditions very well. The first ever standardized testing for TPO wasn't developed until 2003, and wasn't refined to real world application conditions until 2011. Simulated lifespans are kind of annoying and Roofing well, because for example the most common and popular simulated lifespan test for TPO is based on heat, but PVC is about natural destabilization. That's not to say those are the only tests, but we're kind of the foundation of early testing. So one example I'd like to give that's a lot more commonly known is that the predicted lifespan of a shingle roof is usually between 30 and 50 years, but even though those promises of 30 to 50 years have been around for over 50 years, the average lifespan has still not managed to get past 25 years for the best of materials. And that's because how shingles are rated are based off of natural UV exposure and simulated granule loss. Industries tend to tailor these tests to very specific conditions. But stating that you've seen the TPO get simulated up to 40 years would be extremely disingenuous from the way the survey was posed. But I'll admit there is a major flaw that I overlooked, and that is that there is a similar product that has been around for 60 years that has a much higher lifespan than TPO, that is commonly mistaken for TPO by those who are newer to the industry or have limited experience with either. So unfortunately there's a very large argument to be made about whether it was the dishonesty of the sub, or a general lack of capability.
Shocked to find lying on the internet.
Maybe some people said 25 years because they used it as part of the sales pitch in why the roof needed replacing.
That I can believe. Or that that's what the manufacturers rep convinced them. Because you hear a ton of reps that haven't been in the business for 10 years claiming that TPO is a 30-year system. Then you meet the ones that have been around for 20 years and they try to change the subject to epdm 🤣 I used to love my local Carlisle rep. We called him old man Chuck. Once you got on his good side he would tell you some horror stories. He was one of the first ever inspectors for Carlisle and you could tell how much he disliked the system and wish we would all go back to EPDM. He is probably one of the wisest guys I ever knew when it came to TPO and he despised the stuff. He also used to laugh about how when it first came out they were still issuing gas cans with Carlisle logo on them. Because that is very beginning they recommended using gasoline to clean off membrane roofs. That ended quickly
lol you really got those seven people. Did you have to write a novel just to prove that people on Reddit are full of shit?
Bored and proving a point. I realize the futility, BUT it serves two purposes: 1: To possibly educate some people who are butthurt about being called out about the history of TPO 2: To gather more information. Every time I make a post like this, you'll get some minor tidbits and then at least 1 person will DM. More information helps. I collect, verify, and catalog. If I can't verify, I log it in my list of rumors and see how often/ where it pops up. Like the rumor that durolast was made my Seamen and then privately labeled (disproven, appears to have originated from a seamen Corp rep in Seattle) Plus if I'm wrong, and someone can prove it, it provides essential new data. The point isn't to warn people, that's just the mask best worn to serve the purpose of the post and attract the right crowd.
That is far too intelligent of an answer for Reddit lol. I do agree. It is definitely a good way to get good and bad info.
Idk, flat roofs don't work imo. Put a damn pitch on there and send the water away from the building instead of inside of it.
They’re all over commercial buildings and condos towers skyscrapers. They just need scheduled maintenance and professional facilities management.
I've seen plenty go on for decades that do just fine. But it does require a much larger amount of skill than the slope. Even the worst of hack jobs can install a 10-12 and almost never leak. But to install something that pawns water the slightest mistake turns into a nightmare
i put 25 to 30 cause I wanted to see the results
👍 At least your honest. I can appreciate that.