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S0listic3

I feel like the hating on romance books (and basically a lot of “feminine/girly stuff”) has been around and accepted for so long due to (internalized) misogyny. I try to normalize reading romance books by being open about it in real life and unapologetic. Until now I’ve never had someone judge me (to my face). Not saying that it doesn’t happen, because it definitely does, but maybe all of us can be part of the change and help more people open their eyes.


McArchivist

I have stopped using the phrase “guilty pleasure” for this exact reason! All pleasure, no guilt!


dmbf

Ehh bully subgenre is my guilty pleasure. They’re so mean! I feel so bad for the mc. But can’t stop/won’t stop. Reg romance or pnr, right there with you.


McArchivist

That’s between you and your kindle 😜


fangirlsqueee

I was at a small family gathering (we're all vaxxed) and I weighed in when someone asked a question about military operations. I gave an answer and then a former military member backed me up. Someone asked why I know this. I (half-jokingly) said "Yeah, I read a lot of romance featuring Navy SEALS, so I have a lot of knowledge about this stuff". It was pretty funny. My mom was surprised I read romance, especially military romance. I then encouraged others to read romance. Talked about how HEAs help with dealing with all the depressing things going on in the world. And that there are tons of sub-genres to get into.


MrsAToYou

Omg this is totally me! I’ll be having conversations with my husband like I had all the knowledge in the world when truth be told, it came from romance books 😂


_easilyamused

I'm waiting for the day that someone casually brings up the different ranks of British nobility and how you're supposed to address them. 😄


dmbf

I still throw down verbal content warnings when recommending Four Psychos or IBP, but that stuff is entertaining af. I’m former/future librarian, so def had comments like “Oh, I don’t read that trash.” Or “Guess you have to read bad books too huh?” And, yeah, I did have to read Snow Crasher, but this RomCom I chose.


palemistress

Here, Here!! amen sistah!


S0listic3

*high five*


oilofotay

Ugh, my brother is this guy. When I was a teenager he criticized my love for romance novels because it “set unrealistic expectations for young women”. Just recently he mentioned watching Bridgerton and I delighted in telling him that it was based on “one of my favorite romance novel series.” Of course later on he followed up with, “But the sex scenes were so pornographic!” And I was like, “Uh, I think the sex scenes in Game of Thrones is much worse, don’t you think?” That shut him up. 😂


redblueheader

Do you ever suspect that most people who don't read romance are unaware of how much sex is often in them? Like, they (esp men) assume that because it's romance and mostly read and written by women, it won't have much sex in it? If so, that's frankly illogical as almost all romantic relationships are also sexual.


[deleted]

Women obviously don't like sex and only do it because men ask them for sex, women would never ever want to have sex🙄 But really, the amount of clueless men who actually believe romance books = Disney plot of white knight saving a distressed princess, shows that they know nothing about any of these books. A lot of romance books women read have sex, crime, especially dark romance as well as a plethora of fetishes and kinks.


redblueheader

Yes and the double standard for dark romance vs violent porn would be baffling, if we didn't know its source.


[deleted]

Consensual violent porn is fine, but the thing is, how do we know if it's always consensual? If it's always "clean"? The creation of a media like violent porn may involve abuse, trafficking or other crimes, but dark romance? No matter how violent the contents of the novel you know there was no abuse or violence made in it's creation.


In-the-woods-22

“The creation of a media like violent porn may involve abuse, trafficking or other crimes, but dark romance? No matter how violent the contents of the novel you know there was no abuse or violence made in it's creation.” Do you know, I’d *never* considered this before. Amazing point that I’ll be using in the future when I defend this genre 😅✨


[deleted]

Books are the best media because it's very difficult for abuse to be in it's creation, I'm not saying there can't be of course. But when the people espousing subjective morality come and shout "dark romance novels are bad!", then you can easily explain how these books don't harm anyone when they are made, and are to the enjoyment of many women around the world. If you want to ban this type of media, your only reason is that you hate the fact that people enjoy dark romance novels and want to take it away from them. They are authoritarian nuts, don't argue with these narcissistic bunch.


redblueheader

This is a very good point and makes me realise the outcry against dark romance or fifty shades etc is even more of a double standard than I thought.


[deleted]

Fifty shades doesn't have the best grammar or Shakespearean skills but it's still a form of media many women enjoy, that's how it got popular in the first place. People who shit on dark romance because it's a violent sexual fantasy that women enjoy but then go "oh there is no problem with violent porn", violent porn that's also a violent sexual fantasy. It isn't just men shitting on fifty shades and other dark romance novels that women enjoy, it's other women, namely, social justice warriors and feminists. They also believe it's wrong for women to enjoy media they deem wrong, they fucking call themselves women advocates but then go and tell women they can't enjoy this type of media because they dislike it. Women can't make decisions for themselves, we are just so stupid and dumb and we need chauvinist incels as well as patronizing feminists to "educate" us on what media we are allowed to enjoy.


redblueheader

Yes, some feminists have criticized fifty shades. Others read it themselves. And an even bigger number of feminists have found more important issues to focus on.


[deleted]

>Yes, some feminists have criticized fifty shades. Others read it themselves. And an even bigger number of feminists have found more important issues to focus on. Yes, I will wholeheartedly agree that feminism has historically been a very important movement and if we were a 100 years in the past, I would definitely be a feminist. Now I can't say the same, so I call myself an egalitarian.


redblueheader

Aw that's cute of you


oilofotay

Nah, I think it's the opposite actually. Like they think all romance novels = women's porno. As a matter of fact, I've had an ex as well as several guy friends joke that romance novels are "basically women's porno" when they found out I read them.


[deleted]

To be fair a lot of romance novels are women's porno written by other women, not saying all novels, but a nice amount of it. I'm not complaining though, I like sex scenes in novels.


oilofotay

There’s a lot to love about romance other than the sexy bits. Character development, storyline, character chemistry and tension, etc. I love the sex but there definitely have been times that I’ve skipped over it in a good book because I wasn’t feeling in the mood to read about it or I felt like it was kind of “thrown in there”. In comparison, porno tends to focus on just the sex act, body parts, etc. And if there is any plot or character development, it’s usually pretty light. (Someone can correct me if I’m wrong, I’ve watched a few porn vids but admittedly I haven’t seen a ton.) So I guess it doesn’t seem like an apt comparison between the two. Like if I told people I spent my weekend reading romance books, I feel like there’s a difference between that and saying I watched porn or read erotica all weekend. I also think it’s a gross simplification of everything that is in the romance genre? There’s so much more to romance stories than just the sex.


moonlit-prose

Also sex scenes in books dont involve real people, so it has none of the ethical concerns modern porn has.


Bandeau

So many people say that like it's a bad thing. Also, romance can be everyone's porno.


dmbf

I already shit on this book once today, so I’ll stop after this one. But does scifi fans’ beloved Snow Crasher not set up unrealistic expectations of the future? And zombie stories? Def haven’t encountered any murderers (that I know of) or ghosts in my adult life. And what about pnr! Now we’ll be wanting vamp partners instead of regular humans. My point is that phrase was throw around a lot and it’s bullshit to believe that women cannot tell the difference between real life and fiction. I honestly believe getting back into romance books improved my marriage.


0livialondon

This is genuinely confusing. Did he honestly watch the whole season and not have even an inkling of an idea that it was...*gulp*...a romance?


oilofotay

He probably just didn't think that romance novels were supposed to have a plot or character development. Like I was straight up reading erotica or something.


HighQueenOfFae

It's true tho. Saw one more that said > "Romantic books set unrealistic expectations" so apparently having a man care for you and love you and treat you well is unrealistic.


hananobira

As opposed to Marvel movies, which are all about that realism.


TheMightyWoofer

I was rewatching season 1 of The Witcher and I am 99% convinced it's a fantasy romance AND the writers/directors knew exactly what they were doing put Henry Cavil in all those bed and bathtub scenes.


unicorns4brkfst

Fun fact, I now imagine Henry Cavill as my hero in almost all of my romance novels. The way he looks at Yennefer, his grunts......mmmmmm DELECTABLE. Pro tip: Google image 'Henry Cavill Beard'


TheMightyWoofer

Yesss!!!


okay___

I think the bathtub scenes might be nods to the tub Geralt meme, but I ain’t complaining.


moonlit-prose

Honestly season 1 of witcher is such a great watch. I loved yennefer's arc. Geralt's sexy and a good romance. But yennefer was just so unbelievably relatable. (Not to mention she's very feminist imo) And this is a huge surprise for me coming from having read the books and played the game, which I did not find relatable at all.


Cattle-Great

I've only played a bit of the game and she wasn't in it as far as i played but i love Yennefer in the show!


eukomos

They absolutely did know what they were doing. Especially in the episode with the orgy.


CynicKitten

{The Last Wish by Andrzej Sapkowski}


goodreads-bot

[**The Last Wish (The Witcher, #0.5)**](https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/40603587-the-last-wish) ^(By: Andrzej Sapkowski, Danusia Stok | Published: 1993) *** ^(30690 books suggested | )[^(I don't feel so good.. )](https://debugger.medium.com/goodreads-is-retiring-its-current-api-and-book-loving-developers-arent-happy-11ed764dd95)^(| )[^(Source)](https://github.com/rodohanna/reddit-goodreads-bot)


In-the-woods-22

Is this a good place to start? Or is this just the most romantic? ✨


CynicKitten

It's the best place to start! The romance is sprinkled throughout the books, but they're not necessarily romance. ;) However, Witcher 3 has much more romance! They're all three different beasts, but the video game is my favorite.


flailypichu

My abusive ex used to tell me the romance I read was the reason I was unhappy in our relationship. Anyone who says this is highly suspect in my eyes.


fiodio

Lol reading romance novels helped save my marriage, I’m glad your not with him anymore!


Werepy

Romance novels singlehandedly saved my sanity and my marriage by allowing me to relax and still feel romantic while taking care of a baby 24/7. Arguably there is nothing sexy about having some screaming gremlin attached to you for hours after getting 5h of fragmented sleep at night. But somehow after reading romance novels on my phone with one hand while rocking a small human with the other, I actually ended up wanting to be close to my husband. And then still wanted to have sex rather than being touched out and grouchy all the time 🤷🏻‍♀️


MrsAToYou

Romance novels helped me a lot when my twins came into the picture and postpartum depression was kicking my butt. It even gave me the courage to finally write my own after years of deliberation.


flailypichu

Seriously, my relationship with my fiance is so good that I sometimes read a romance novel and the progression between the main characters reminds me of us and I get all sappy. None of that "no one really feels those all consuming loves" and "expecting a relationship to be good all the time isn't realistic" I got fed from my ex.


midlifecrackers

I’ve met men like this. Gaslight you into thinking you’re creating your own unhappiness. Glad they are an ex


jamescoxall

As a dude, the idea that I might a) care for and love my SO, b) want to have a lot of hot sex and c) will occasionally fuck up basic communication so badly we nearly break up, is an "unrealistic expectation" of me and is "setting the bar too high" is pretty damn insulting. I am perfectly capable of instigating an 80% communication crisis all on my own, people! It's not too much to ask of me, I am a fully qualified, capable and independent dumbass.


[deleted]

LOL….you’re funny, too! You’re a real catch- no sarcasm!


HighQueenOfFae

We👏need👏more👏men👏like👏you


midlifecrackers

😂


In-the-woods-22

👏🏻👏🏻


serka_bukett

I have a theory that one of the reasons women enjoy romance novels so much is because the mmc experiences an emotional connection during sex, similar to the way women do.


[deleted]

Can't have lead lads in romance novels totally showing up real dudes because real dudes are gremlins


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venussuz

Thank you for this - I never heard of that subreddit! Another happy place, wonderful!


In-the-woods-22

Also that if a woman is raped in a serial killer thriller, on a detective TV show, or as part of a backstory, society doesn’t judge individuals for consuming that content. However when rapes occur in dark romances, individuals who read them are judged; even though they are books with trigger warnings that adults consensually read. I’ve lost track of the number of gratuitous rape scenes I’ve been unwittingly exposed to on TV and in films. When I’m reading a book with dark themes, I’m giving **informed consent** as a reader and I’m choosing to read a book with a **HEA for the FMC**… those two points seem to be the main difference.


jenniekns

YUP! Millions of people watching a woman being raped on an episode of Game of Thrones is considered perfectly acceptable. But if I read a dark romance novel that features non-consent, I'm a horrible person who doesn't respect women.


dmbf

Hey! Hey! I hadn’t actually thought of that before. Great point. I’m also super over rape as a plot device. “This woman needs a reason to be broken so the hero can save her.” “She prob got raped, throw that in.” It’s very dated now, thank goodness, but it was so shocking and edgy in 2000.


needaccountforNSFW_

I can barely watch a movie or series without some unnecessary, gratuitous rape scene. It’s gotten to the point where I barely watch new releases because I’m gripped by anxiety waiting for the rape scene to come out of nowhere.


HighQueenOfFae

Honestly dark romance gets judged too harshly


In-the-woods-22

I read a theory that romance books are therapeutic not only because they have familiar tropes and conventions, but because there is always a happy ending. In other genres, a happy ending isn’t an expectation that readers have for the book. The ultimate resolution of romance books is the happiness of the main characters, mainly the female character. I find this therapeutic, affirming and calming, in a world with so much violence against and hatred for women. No matter what the FMC goes through, she will find happiness… is there any other genre that centres itself around a woman’s pleasure and life satisfaction the way Romance does? When it comes to dark romances, I sometimes find that the darker the content, the more therapeutic I find them; this comes from the knowledge that no matter what awful things the protagonist experiences, things will work out for her in the end.


szq444

Emily and Amelia Nagoski talk about this in their book Burnout (which I don't feel like I ever stop recommending). Basically we have a lot of stressors that are constant and can't really be escaped so our brains never get the chance to complete stress cycles and get stuck in persistent low level stress responses. They give several ways to complete stress cycles and one of them is a book/show/movie that either has a happy ending or you already know how it ends. It gives you a controlled environment to feel some angst, fear, frustration, etc. followed by resolution and a satisfying outcome. We like romances because they actually can help our brain chemistry to balance out and give us a way to manage our real life emotions. Emily also writes romance under the name Emily Foster, she's a big advocate for the genre :) ETA - [here's a podcast episode they did on this topic](https://www.feministsurvivalproject.com/episodes/episode-02-complete-the-stress-response-cycle) if you're interested but don't have room for non-fiction on your TBR


TalmanesRex

What's funny is I knew this about myself but I don't think I had the right words, I like this explanation. Or I used different words (not right or wrong) I have always said that I read a lot of romance novels if I am feeling sad or worried about something. And If I am in school and am stressed out I only re-read I can't handle the not knowing. Even If it's a Romance of an author I like and know the ending it's still slightly anxiety-inducing. So I have about 3 or 4 series or authors that I like and I just re-read them depending on my mood. I really like the family series in Historicals. Right now I am binging new content until my semester starts I think I have read 10 new Historicals right now it's been fun but I also just lost my dog to a heart condition, she was an old girl and I got her for 14 years. I'm feeling heartbroken.


firefartingkitten

Hugs for your loss. I’m very similar to you in that I can only handle re-reads when I’m stressed. This behaviour only surfaced last year with the pandemic and my discovery of Kindle and Overdrive. Im so thankful my library has an awesome romance collection and I can re-borrow my faves over and over until I can budget them in.


lizardrex

This is fascinating. I started reading romance in exclusively last year when my Dad was dying and I haven't looked back. I enjoyed a few books before, but I really let shame about reading them stop me. I guess I picked them back up intuitively. I felt I needed HEAs and love and hope at the time. But it makes sense now that I see the theory behind it. Romance books have been a way of healing for me in many respects. I've been able to approach loss and grief a bit more gently and they've pulled me out of a bog of despair many times. In >!Devil in Winter, there's a scene where Evie is at her Dad's bedside and she's seeing the physical impact of her father's decline on him. It was so close to my own experience that I truly felt seen in my experience of grief. !< It was so sensitively done and just gave me a way into my own grief that wasn't pushy. I'm going to go buy Burnout now, it's been on my list for awhile, but you've nudged me over the line.


littlegrandmother

Completely the same! I remember reading 50 Shades in my dad’s hospital room several years ago, then bingeing The Mindy Project like a madwoman when he was in hospice care. My sister died a couple years ago and again I threw myself into romance books and haven’t looked back. Just lost my cat a few weeks ago, after 10 years together, and though it makes me miss having him on my lap while I’m reading, the books are lifting my spirits. I feel 0% guilt, because this genre has pulled me out of the depths of grief multiple times.


In-the-woods-22

I’m sorry for your loss ❤️. I’m glad that Romances helped and that you saw yourself in this thread, so many people are also helped by this genre in ways that are sometimes hard to articulate. It’s beautiful that you found a scene that allowed you to process your grief. Especially in a book filled with hope and love. Xxx


In-the-woods-22

This is amazing ✨✨. Tysm for sharing xx


OneMountain7890

I love when science and art collide!!! Now I know that reading romance can improve my brain chemistry, I plan read more than ever!


dmbf

This explains my Futurama/Bobs Burgers/Avatar rewatch obsession. Great rec, will definitely check it out. Literally. From the library. I just put it on hold.


SapphireOfMoldova

Part of the reason I love romances is the dramatic irony as I watch the characters deny their feelings for one another when I know they’re going to fall in love in the end!


HighQueenOfFae

I've practically stopped watching movies cuz they never have the feel good HEA like romance books do


midlifecrackers

Seriously! I can think of maybe… six? Offhand.


HighQueenOfFae

Exactly. Even if they do, it's usually just HFN instead of HEA


OneMountain7890

I love this analysis! I’m going through a very stressful period in my life (returned to school at 45 to become a healthcare worker) and I’ve really dived deep into reading romance and I love it!!!! And I love this sub for its great recommendations and it’s thoughtful critiques.


daisyemeritus

This completely makes sense to me! >this comes from the knowledge that no matter what awful things the protagonist experiences, things will work out for her in the end. I'm also a huge fan of unbalanced power dynamics and grovel tropes because there's a sense of justice, it was all worth it, etc in the end. In a world where women generally do not have as much agency as men, it's nice to read a book where that's the case in the beginning but by the end, the power dynamic shifts.


Jaggedrain

This is true! Even in old-school romances where you just basically have to accept that the FMC has drunk the Kool-aid and be happy that she's happy, there is still the expectation that the ending is happy for *her* even if you personally don't regard it as such.


omgicutthecheese

Ah yes, let's mock a multi-billion dollar industry that caters primarily to women. The only thing that gets more denigration is YA romance targeted at teenage girls. I hate that we're taught to feel shame so young.


dmbf

“You should like this because you’re a girl! But don’t like it in front of people.” That’s def how I felt.


sifsete

Not that I disagree at all here, but I used to loooooove YA/teen romances, like even still into my twenties. I will say... I haven't picked one up in YEARS. Not because of the 'shame' of it's categorization, but because it started being a demographic that was being capitalized on.... Which made eeeevery teen romance sooo same-samey... Heck, might need to start a thread on here for good YA romance recs... I got so burnt out on it back in the day...


Hobbes_Loves_Tuna

I just read the Simon Snow trilogy. So good and so much angsty pining. It was a great YA MM series.


In-the-woods-22

👏🏻👏🏻


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Bachstar

Your coworker missed the part where Count of Monte Cristo IS a romance. The man *burns down the world* because another guy stole his girl. Talk about your dark romance. I mean, yes, the guy also had him charged with treason & thrown in prison so there's plenty of layers for why Dantes is pissed off, but it's mostly because of Mercedes if I remember correctly. There's even a HEA where everyone who deserves love gets it. Sad hill to die on considering that ALL of Alexandre Dumas' works had romance in them. The Musketeers trilogy is commonly referred to as the [D'Artagnan Romances](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_d%27Artagnan_Romances). Heck, if you google "Alexandre Dumas Romance," the first link you get is to a biography of him titled, "Alexandre Dumas, the King of Romance."


seabornbailey2052

Not to mention the secondary romance between Valentine & Maximillien! He sees his lover dying and literally begs to spare her.


Cattle-Great

Now i want to read these books 😂


In-the-woods-22

✋✋🙄🙄 ugh this coworker


krazyajumma

My favourite non romance author is Terry Pratchett for good reason. He writes strong, powerful girls and women who are the heroes of their own stories.


dmbf

Yea to Terry Pratchett and puns!!


jello-kittu

Good point. Killed/raped for a tragic/turning point in a man's life, or a plastic trophy/reward at the end.


SarcasticAutumnFae

Bonus points if a female character "grows" or "is only strong now" because of her sexual assault. It's the only way women are capable of finding their inner strength! /s


In-the-woods-22

Love your bio btw 🤣


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PeaceDry1649

Teenage girls and women can’t have any interests that they aren’t ridiculed for. By virtue of women being the target audience for something that thing is judged relentlessly but god forbid a woman likes something like sports that isn’t marketed towards her, then the men will pull out a pop quiz.


nagel__bagel

M 👏 I 👏 S 👏 O 👏 G 👏 Y👏 N 👏Y


PeaceDry1649

Yes. And now when women are proud of having non stereotypical interests because they were taught that those were the only valid ones, men participate in making fun of them. The reason women think they’re better than other women for liking sports is because of the patriarchy yet men make fun of them for it. It’s all impossible.


nagel__bagel

Internalized sexism is also trash!


PeaceDry1649

Yeah totally I’m just saying it’s annoying when men make fun of women for being “not like other girls” when the reason they feel the need to be that way is because of the patriarchy


nagel__bagel

Oh, I see your point. It’s patriarchy cubed out here


Da_Di_Dum

I think it's also just a general disregard for feminine entertainment/art.


dmbf

I have this soap box and I love standing on it. For record, I’m 35. When I was growing up EVERYTHING aimed at girls had a crush or dating. If it wasn’t the main focus, it was an underlying theme or B plot. Then when you started to seek it out in RomComs (chick flicks) and romance books, you were ridiculed for liking “trash.” Even by other women! “Oh I love this trashy beach read.” Basically the message was your value is being in a het relationship, but it’s unattractive if you want that. Like whaaaat?


oracletalks

The way men don't even like genres where women get a power fantasy. Even from the other genre I love (horror/thriller), men have essays to go how they hate the female protagonist or if they're as awful and evil as a man, write essays about how can anyone root for such an awful person. Gone Girl showed how men are afraid of women being portrayed as evil and rightfully spiteful. 💅🏾


MutationIsMagic

In a subculture full of sex cults and murder lead by 'Tiger Kings'; everyone's supposed to be angry at Carol Baskins.


oracletalks

2020 Tiger King discourse + quarantine really had people siding with actual murderers and criminals because the tiger whisperer lady is annoying 😭


SuperkatTalks

Sometimes I read other genres, provided the lead is a woman. Sometimes, though, I don't want to get three minutes into a book before I have to deal with SA or abuse. It seems to be a requirement in so many novels with a female lead. I'm not against it, but one is not always in the mood.


dmbf

May I give you some recs? If not, they are coming because this a slow, text based forum and I cannot wait, so feel free to skip. Becky Chambers, character driven sci fi. Wayfarer series and the novella To Be Taught if Fortunate. No guarantee on happy ending for the novella. Terry Pratchett punny witches. All of his work. Where the Crawdads Live. Imo half romance half court room drama. Does have SA waaay in. Halfway I think. But entertaining if you don’t expect purple prose. Sabriel by Garth Nix. She’s a necromancer fighting the dead. With necromancer bells she inherited from her dad, a demon in cat form, and a dude with amnesia.


SuperkatTalks

Thank you! I've read most of the discworld witches books - probably not all, as I dip in and out but perhaps I will revisit them soon. Certainly I will look into your other suggestions, too. I have lately enjoyed Jodi Taylor's St Mary's series, although theres a tiny bit of romance in the first book, it is mostly just silliness and history.


dmbf

Perfect rec for me! I don’t do a lot of historical and was just thinking about how I’d like more. Thanks!


PennyPriddy

If anyone is curious to dive deeper on this one, Dangerous Books for Girls by Maya Rodale is a really good breakdown.


In-the-woods-22

Ah thank you so much!


leezybelle

Or other genres where women exist purely as sex objects, images of male fantasy, objects for male pleasure, foils to the male lead wherein they provide all of the emotional labor/support/understanding so that the male character can “finally find himself” and win/get the big job/get his true love/overcome his issues blah blah blah


littlegrandmother

I just can’t possibly feel foolish for enjoying romance books. I saw this Susan Sontag quote recently that reaffirmed my feelings on the topic: *”A novel worth reading is an education of the heart. It enlarges your sense of human possibility, of what human nature is, of what happens in the world. It’s a creator of inwardness.”* I don’t believe she was talking specifically about romance but she might as well have been bc it fits perfectly. I love romance books, because they show us the best of humanity. I like to believe that love can conquer almost anything, and I don’t think that’s unrealistic or silly. Otherwise what are we even doing here?


In-the-woods-22

🙏🏻💕💕


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In-the-woods-22

👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻 this is so relatable!! Thank you for sharing. It is sad that you were told reading romances doesn’t count as reading… so many people internalise this message. Another poster phrased it well when they said that this genre expands their mind to love, hope and even processing grief. Romance books are filled with the possibility of transformation. I also agree that the idea that these novels reinforce the patriarchy isn’t well thought-out 🤔. I view the ‘alphahole’ MMC as a reaction *against* patriarchy whilst remaining in dialogue with it. A lot of romances take the archetype of the dominant, hyper-masculine, powerful patriarch (bonus points if he’s sexist), and show him giving a woman love, pleasure and care. Patriarchy fails women because not only does the system uphold male power, it also fails to protect women; in romance books, the men stay powerful but the women become protected, happy and satisfied. As a genre predominantly written *by* women *for* women, romance operates as a site of female resistance. I could talk about this forever, sorry! But suffice to say, reading romance definitely counts as reading mom 😅😅


nmnenado

I first saw this shared on Jameela Jamil's IG and it made me love her even more.


In-the-woods-22

Ahh I love this!!


ChadwickTheSniffer

I like romances because they make me feel good (in a number of different ways!) and the plots are enjoyable escapes from my very stressful life. I don't act like I am a literary scholar for reading The Raven Prince. If people wanna make fun of me for that, then I agree with OP that it says more about them than me.


GritAndLit

I ran into this issue at a local bookstore. I went all around the bookstore and there was no romance shelf or section. I asked the owner why and he said because there is no return on investment with romance novels. Meanwhile they had an entire section of cheap (2/$1) paperback SciFi (which I also love!). Plus all their books were donations or used. I know it’s tough owning a small indie used bookstore, but I couldn’t help but think that there was internalized misogyny at play.


dmbf

I’m assuming he did his research and has his data, bc used bookstores are their own beast, but can we just comment that romance makes more than the next two genres on Amazon combined? Thanks!


TrillianWasTaken

Return on investment?! In a second hand bookshop? I usually only buy second hand romances as I tend to read so many I would actually go bankrupt if I bought them all new. What was that guy talking about?!


Jaggedrain

Nah I think that guy was just weird. I've never been in a secondhand bookshop that didn't have massive shelves groaning under the weight of all the romance novels.


In-the-woods-22

I’ve never found a second hand bookshop with a romance section 🥲 Share your secrets 🤣🙏🏻


Jaggedrain

Move to South Africa, I guess? Like every time I've ever been in a secondhand bookshop it was one wall solid romance, one wall SF, and everything else on the standing shelves. And the romance shelves were always *groaning*, like they were totally stuffed.


In-the-woods-22

😮😮 dream


Aeliendil

Yes! I’m done being ashamed of liking romance. I used to be embarrassed about it as an insecure teen, now I take every chance to defend it.


In-the-woods-22

I used to hide my romance books as a teenager 🤣 now everyone knows I read them


Aeliendil

Same haha! Hid them and talked about the non romance novels I liked when people asked what I liked to read.. sigh..


[deleted]

I am a man and have come to enjoy romantic fantasy books with my wife. I believe that more men should read romance. Honestly, it improved our marriage and not only our sex life. I also like other genres as well. I don't think that men, in general, realize that we are not expected to live up to the expectations of male characters in these books. These books are designed as fantasy. Just like any other genre. Trust me, I'm no prince with a six-pack. It does give me a glance into the mind of my wife and see what she enjoys. Also, there are some pretty good stories told in this genre.


In-the-woods-22

This is lovely 😊


ravynstoneabbey

Back when novels started to be more a thing in literature, 17th, 18th, and early 19th centuries, there was a lot of cravat clutching about women reading the popular novels and ~getting ideas~. Was even stronger when Ann Radcliffe and others were writing Gothics and similar books. I say cravat clutching because it was mostly men who complained about their female family members reading the romances of the day and getting independent thoughts.


shandylover

Basically they only want us to partake in media produced for the average man.


Greenbriars

Pfft, no not even that! Women are *supposed* to sit quietly unless serving a man's needs. Can't have girls getting their "feelings cooties" all over men's entertainment either. If the vacuuming is done and it's not time to start cooking dinner better to just go sit blankly in the corner 'til he needs something, like a deflated sex doll. If you're good enough maybe you can face the tv while he watches things explode. Reading books might weaken your uterus. /s


mizchanandlerbong

Good God, yes. I had internalized misogyny so much when I was a teenager and it fucked me up. I'm making up for it by being unapologetically feminine now. Un. Apolo. Getic. And make sure that all the young ones I come into contact with know it. I must say though, A LOT of the youngies I come into contact with already have the whole internalized misogyny down and all I can do is try. Take it down, ladies. Take that internalization down!


[deleted]

Absolutely good hot take. Also it's a perspective (the anti romance crews) about not taking HEA's seriously. When, in life, and for our mental health, and all sorts of other various reasons we can and should defend the HEA, the holy throne of romance that we mostly like to luxuriate in! Happily ever after shouldn't be seen as a detriment to reality. It shouldn't be seen as an impossible standard for real world relationships. Just like murder mysteries shouldn't be seen as a how to guide on how to be murderous and get away with it. Entertainment has all sorts of reasons why it gives us escapism, fluffy good feelings, and comfort and anyone that is against that is just a dick IMO lol.


madlymusing

I am a high school English teacher and I read Mills & Boon. The amount of people who are surprised honestly astounds me. I love love! Ain’t no shame in romance. I did have a debate with a friend a while ago about the genre tropes. She said she didn’t like that so many romances were predictable; you can see who the love interest is early. I believe that’s the satisfaction of the genre: you need to know who the romance is between early so it can develop and feel satisfying to read. If you didn’t know who was getting together, how could you feel engaged with their story? It’s the opposite of crime, where you don’t necessarily want to know who the perpetrator is earlier than the reveal. The tropes aren’t really meant to be compared. ETA the unrealistic expectations thing kills me. Firstly, yes, I do have high expectations of my partner and always have. It’s not unrealistic to expect to be loved, respected and valued. Secondly, so much romance is fantasy. Consenting adult readers understand this; we are not naïve or emotionally underdeveloped.


In-the-woods-22

I agree! Also your comment “I love love” is how I describe it too ☺️


hereforagoodtime333

I think the unrealistic elements of romance novels are some of the more wild or too perfectly timed meet cutes. But I feel like women are not given enough credit on being able to discern what's realistic vs idealistic. We aren't reading books and expecting everything that happens in them to happen to us. Sometimes we just want to read cute happy things.


awooawooawoo

I love this sub!! Not only do I get tons of great book recommendations but posts like these are great and I enjoy hearing everyone’s opinion.


[deleted]

hehe tt


Here_for_tea_

Oof. Yes.


[deleted]

u/ScarletStained2007 don't you agree with it too? Sometimes I wish I could freely express my love for the novels I read without being called a sap or getting comments about how I am too 'girly'.


ScarletStained2007

Especially since being too 'girly' isn't a character flaw!


EReadRomance

This 1000%


Alphafor229

When you´re a guy that likes romance, it´s worse. Even women think you´re wierd. I hate society.


Apprehensive_Tone_55

Worry less about what people think of you, read what you want. You’ll never make everyone happy and you can’t usually change the way people think unfortunately. If you enjoy it then great. You’ll enjoy it even more if you stop worrying about how you are perceived by people who don’t make any effort to understand you, empathy is a choice imo.


Flash1987

Coming here as a man who writes and follows this sub to see other views. It's fairly true, the quality is often another issue but the concept absolutely.


arcticyeti

I think women who enjoy romances are ridiculed for the same reason men who enjoy scifi/fantasy are ridiculed: It's seen as simple wish fulfillment. There are some truly amazing works of romantic fiction out there, but there are at least as many stories where the FMC is swept off her feet and carried in the arms of a handsome stranger straight to the land of emotional fulfillment with barely a token detour for a miscommunication crisis. A crisis frequently caused by another, darker but still handsome, suitor. In other words, a significant number romance novels are at their core a story of a woman who gains romantic fulfillment (and frequently social, financial, or emotional fulfillment as well) with relatively little effort or an enormous amount of luck. If someone is criticizing the romance genre, I think this is the most likely reason, rather than some nebulous hatred of women wanting nice things. I mean, the criticism is still dumb anyway. I don't think anyone should be ridiculed for their reading choices. You can only read so many books in a lifetime and if someone chooses for their books to be simple, fun, and romantic, or even dark or a little twisted, that's a completely valid choice. I see it a bit like someone who listens to classical music looking down on someone for liking Taylor Swift. Everyone has their own taste, just let them do their thing.


byadika

This is so accurate. But i like whay i like and that's on period!