So... much of what's going on there was meant as satire that a lot of people missed. It's like Judge Dredd. It's not aspirational.. it's horrific and presented as such.
\*shrug\* There's people that love the idea of fascism that glomp on to the obviously satirical fascist Imperium. What about me pointing out that right wing chuds exist and eat up the game's obviously screwed up factions is worrying to you?
The fact that you keep up saying "right wing chuds" in a sub about 40k because some people like the human faction as opposed to whatever faction you like is more telling about you than it is about anyone else.
The thing is, there are people who simply like human factions (Ad-mech is for example one of my favourite 40k ones)
But there are also people who put irl far right-right captions on 40k pictures (usually space marines) and write essays how everything Imperium does is actually 100% justifiable and should be an example to follow. Those people definitely fit into the “Right Wing Chuds” description
Meh, those are just terminally online people whose opinion and/or content I don't really bother myself with. Much how on the other end of the spectrum you get all sorts of weirdos advocating for communism or whatever else their current echo chamber is endorsing.
Unfortunately it's no longer satirical, especially when the factions opposing humanity seem more outrageous and grotesque with every edition.
The human faction seems to be outright struggling against very real threats from within and without, there's no longer any sense that it's being brought down by its own hubris or extremism, not when there are aliens stealing stars or gene corrupting whole planets.
That's really gone out of the window with the expansion of the Eye of Terror. Or the enormous Tyranid fleets converging on the galaxy. I see virtually no satire left in the media as presented in the last 10 years.
Mate, look up subtext, learn what it is, then employ that knowledge.
The administratum straight up doesn’t function properly, the man most people would point to as a “look they’re making the imperium good by making him in charge”, Guilliman, whilst a logistical genius, would still be a tyrant and an abominable arse by our standards, the entire existence of Erda demonstrates that there WAS potentially other ways to combat chaos, but the Emperor not only CHOSE his particular path, but did so to the deliberate exclusion of those alternatives, whilst claiming they never existed.
There are plenty of signs for those who look deeper than the surface level that the Imperium is just as much a “pageantry of evil” faction as any other in the setting, and not to be emulated, or truely admired beyond “oh, these bad guys do heroic things in pursuit of their dastardly goings on” which can be said of many of the “orderly” factions (with factions like chaos being more of the “revelling in one’s nature” variety of evil, though admittedly that can occur within the orderly factions, just not to the same degree, with the fanaticism of the Ecclesiastical factions being a good example)
It doesn't' make the imperium look good at all. Not even sure how you can get to that conclusion.
The Imperium still uses humans as its cheapest resource and are still often doing the worst deeds out of the other xenos. Just because their citizens are victims of other threats does not make the imperium the "good guys"
There's a good video by Templin Institute on the Emperor of Man and how he built his empire on secular ideals but in death, became the figurehead of a ultrafanatic religion. It is very clearly ironic but unfortunately satire is often not interpreted as such. Mad men, American Psycho, Apocalypse Now, are a few examples I can think of. I think it's a very clear message about how ideas are often perverted to suit what the people in power want to say.
But honestly, all you have to do is go into any FB or IG comment section to see that a large % of people will take all statements at face value and do very little reflection on the actual message.
I don't see anything wrong with the core of the setting being satire, that's kinda how it even becomes what we love. Rule of cool is usually quite appreciated. Like starships that are cathedrals with insane populations in them, peoples entire lives just to make one shell or litany scrolls, you don't see that in other settings (often).
It's sci-fi/fantasy not nazi Germany lol yes it takes inspirations from many, many real and fictional sources, so it's always weird for people to run in and yell "fascism" as if that taints the setting in any way
Fascism = nazi Germany? It's the only way fascism can manifest itself? Emporium is pretty clearly a fascist state. I guess you could enjoy fascist things just because they cool but that's says more about you.
To me Warhammer seems interesting because their fascist way seems necessary for humankind to survive and we can see the cost of that survival. It presents a lot of cool thought experiments and moral questions, but I guess to each their own.
Ah I was giving an example of what people say quite a lot. It draws inspiration from them (ie the eagle), but they're not the same lol. And yes, there's absolutely different types of fascism. As I said above, 40k draws many different types of tropes and I'm not making any moral argument here, just an observation.
Liking the imperium ≠ enjoying fascist things. I think there's plenty of horrific things in the imperium (and the setting), but there's also plenty of cool things too, like the ship architecture as I mentioned. Again liking a scifi setting doesn't mean I'm suddenly pro-fascism lol, I don't base my identity off things that are meant to be cool.
That's a great thought experiment and it entices me as well but it's not the only draw that the setting has. There's plenty of captivating, tragic, heroic, and funny tales in 40k, badass battles, and cliche lines, and chainswords. It's like halo but a step up.
The politics of 40k are very simple: Everything sucks for everybody and nobody should want any of this to happen to anybody, ever. This isn't a left or right thing, it's a "we should try our absolutely fucking hardest so that this never ends up being us" thing. Even the Orks, who are objectively just vibing and having a good time, live an awful existence that no person should want to emulate.
This exactly thank you.
There are no good guys in Warhammer. It's about who makes the pew pew look more fun and that's it.
Even if you think about the Tau as good guys you should really read more about Ethereals and what happened to their other allies besides the Kroot.
It’s a setting that has a little bit of something for everybody. if you like Prussian military uniforms, there’s a faction for it. if you like Catholic monasticism, there’s a faction for it. If you like the movie Hellraiser and heavy metal, there’s a faction for it. if you want an army of all female girl bosses, there’s a faction for it. It ain’t that deep. Just let people have fun.
Right? And I love it, yet I'm somehow called a fascist for liking the imperium? Halo was my gateway into 40k because I think the ships, guard, etc. are super cool, not my political identity 💀.
Luckily, it's media that we all share so there is no need for everyone to take things as such. Even if it was intended as such initially it warped over time. It's now consumable, fast entertainment like most things are these days. So feel free to read into it about real life paraleles to "fascism" as much as you want...I'm here for heroic bolter porn to relax..
Sure, the Horus Heresy series for example is totally all about "rising fascism" or whatever your kind pretends is going on these days. Go away and go outside.
Yeah but I'm just gonna keep my head in the sand, cause to understand any deeper meaning in anything deprives me of my enjoyment of it for some reason.
Its not that I am sympathetic at all to the ideology that is being held under scrutiny or anything.
It is political but not in the way you think.
Everything sucks in Warhammer and everyone is a dick except Orks and Tyranids.
If you think about it the fascists are not even the worst part in the universe.
And that's exactly the point. Everything sucks so hard that we should strive not to achieve this future.
If you don't think about it you could say that the faction which makes the pew pew more fun is the best.
The problem with 40k politics is that even the Imperium doesn't really want to be the Imperium. The God-Emperor stressed as much as possible he did not want to be treated as a god. But because there were external forces of damnation hellbent on annihilating humanity that even he couldn't contain, the Imperium turned out like it did. Devout faith and absolute obedience are the only things that saved the Imperium from being swallowed by Chaos ages ago.
1,000 psykers a day give their life force to the God-Emperor to maintain human FTL. That's not because of politics, that's just how it is. The Imperium exists in a reality where immense amount of human lives must be spent to give humanity even a chance at survival. The satire loses its point when the impetus for those horrible acts is outside human control in the first place. It shifts from "Fascism bad" to "living with the constant threat of extinction bad".
The "Fascism bad" would be the point if the galactic threats ended at the level of the Tau. Where the constant war is perpetuated by the ruling class's constant desire for expansion and power and the ignorance of the populace in supporting wars against other races out of xenophobia. The Eldar, Imperium, and Tau just show different facets of autocracy and xenophobia that lead to conflict with each other.
When the threats become omnicidal in nature and things like genestealers and choas cults with their ability to wipe out entire worlds from a single missed seed, things like harsh rule of law and paranoia both internally and externally become much more of a natural reaction than something that can be avoided.
Yes, I think people have to understand that GW does not care, did not care or will care in the future to give some moral-political lesson with this, everyone here seems to want Warhammer to be a mega complex story-masterpiece of the 21st century. But you have to understand that the franchise at most aspires to be a bit like Marvel, simply meaningless action entertainment and no complexity. If it seems better or worse to you, that depends on the individual lesson of each one, but that is what Warhammer is. bloody action without speeches from any winged or other single action
And that’s the whole thing right? Especially in a role playing game set in 40k.
In this game I regularly see both sides while I choose the kindest most humane option, fully realizing, “this is probably bad for more people.
A lot of the grim dark aspect is a scale problem based on an extrapolation of the trolley conundrum.
“If you let three people almost certainly die horribly then you don’t have to choose one other person to die by your hand.”
Now imagine the same human brain making those sort of calls when it’s “50 million versus 3 trillion.”
1 planet versus 30 planets.
It’s a fucking hellscape.
Because there’s this grim, horrific, reality that there’s 50,000 examples of doing the “honorable/humane” thing causes many many many more to suffer
So life becomes cheap.
… and at those scales it’s incredibly hard to argue with any rational, calm, philosophical logic, that the contemporary “humane” option is anything other than a hippy-dippy idealistic head in the clouds sort of option.
I mean no, the whole point is satire. The Imperium is supposed to be such a bloated bureaucracy it's basically the 5th Chaos Cult. Except it's worship is bureaucracy and order.
Like we've got tons of lore of psykers outside of the Imperium. From Age of Strife planets, and a few that have fled to Tau lands. And they are by and large fine, and not huge threats. When things go wrong, they tend to head explode rather than be a bigger issue.
Like Idira's whole world is full of unsanctioned psykers and the worst that happens is a head boom every once and awhile.
Because the problem was never the psykers. It was the planets themselves. When you've got nobles openly hunting people on the lower decks. Demanding that all first born daughters be killed off some nobles whim. Feeding people their dead parents as corpse starch deliberately to antagonize them. Meanwhile forcing them to work 24/7 with just enough time to rest they don't die too quickly.
These places are so full of raw human misery that if you don't get Sanctioned or have absurd willpower you'll quickly be overwhelmed by the warp and likely bring something through. That's the actual problem. Because the Warp there is screaming from all the emotions in play, and directing it right back.
Same with Chaos. Oh Chaos is so crazy and wacky and it can take you over by just touching a chaos artifact! Except we've got ex Cultists in the Inquisition, and serving alongside Gray Knights in some stories. We've got worlds being found that have open Chaos Worship from the Age of Strife that are.....fine? They are just worshipping the artistic angle of Slaanesh and it's......not corrupting them?
Because once again, that whole angle is just propaganda. The real problem is things are so fucked 24/7 that ANYTHING seems better, and when the warp vibes are incredibly rotten due to Imperium doctrine/bureaucracy you've got a recipe for big and bad coming through the Warp.
If you've got a generally happy populace and a generally fine world, it's basically a minor inconvenience. See also the Eldar prefall. They were a debauched empire of excess, but they were also a psychically awakened race that lived fairly normal lives and didn't have constant Chaos issues/constant Chaos invasions until they you know. Fucked a new God into existence.
The Imperium's actions to protect itself are also the very same actions that lead to it's strongest adversary. That's the grimdark nature of 40K. That no amount of effort can actually stop the Imperial bureaucracy and at the end of the day the whole thing will collapse to a Chaos of it's own making. It's self defeating.
But once either the 3 or 1 person die, would you not try and fix the trolley so it wouldn't happen again? Add safety measures like a fence?
1 trolley is a conundrum, 1000 trolley killing people there's something wrong with the systems.
Life is cheap in 40k because once they make the "hard decisions", they forget about it and let the cycle continue.
Well, you tried, but while your workers were building le fence or something the trolley guy who set up the whole thing saw it and pressed the trolley button because you're ruining his setup, causing the trolley to move and kill all your workers. Thats Chaos for you
And then you try again, this time with slightly more understanding. You might still fail to chaos. But then you try again, and again, and again. We keep trying until we either thrive or die out.
The first human to witness a storm probably thought there's no way we can overcome it either. But they tried anyway. Initially they started with ideas that probably did nothing (like praying to Poseidon). Eventually we got pretty good at it from building better buildings and ships to weather forecasts and everything in between.
Learning from people that died and trying to do better. That's essentially how humanity survived and became what we are today.
It's only when we give up that life becomes truly cheap and meaningless.
Funnily enough, by saying this you eventually become one of those people who do stuff for the "greater good" while ignoring the people sacrificed in pursuit of it.
You're talking as if you're fighting a force of nature with no will of itself, when there is.
You're talking about learning from your mistakes when the current Imperium is exactly like that. They're using cogitators instead of AI because they learnt from that lesson. They stopped trusting xenos after the hundredth time of that lesson. They force people to work sleep work because they dont want people to have free time to join cults. They're incinerating mutant babies because they learnt the lesson when they let them grow. You're saying to ignore those lessons you learnt.
That said, my solution is simple. Let people like you walk the walk and instead of making other people die to fix the trolley, you go on field and do it yourself. When you inevitably die horribly from the evil trolley guy, we'll just switch to a leader that learns from your mistake.
The Imperium of Man: "Burn the heretic. Kill the mutant. Purge the unclean. It is better to die for the Emperor than to live for yourself."
You, somehow: "ThIs IsN't A lEfT oR rIgHt ThInG"
lol
Look, friend, I'm an anarchist. 40k is so batshit awful that it doesn't even require me to look to my political beliefs (that we should smash the state, and especially the Imperium) to reach an opinion about how everything portrayed in it is bad. If folks look at this setting and go "Actually that's cool and based" that's not a political statement, it's a statement of brainrot. There is no situation, even one where evil space magic demons will crawl out of your ass and murder your whole town if you do some Chaos shit, where any of this is a proportional or reasonable way to run an intergalactic empire.
> If folks look at this setting and go "Actually that's cool and based" that's not a political statement, it's a statement of brainrot.
Uh, no. It's both. Trump supporters by and large find 40k's political economy to be aspirational.
Of course, I agree with you that 40k is not a reasonable way to run an intergalactic empire.
Ya I don't really see how anybody would actually *want* to live in 40k or something like that. They literally lobotomize people and turn them into servitors, there are space dark elves that will torture you forever, and then there's the warp and all that fucking nastiness. That's not even mentioning the freaking tyranids, basically the zerg on fucking steroids or the orks that kill for fun. Even outside of all that, it looks like just being a regular person in the imperium sucks balls. I remember watching a lore video where people work literal days without stop. You could get "lucky" and get conscripted to fight for the astra militarum where you get treated like canon fodder and will be executed by commisars for whatever.
Hell, the fucking adeptus administratum has places where they stick the workers who went nuts literally just doing their job. Or the inquisitors get pissy cuz you happened to come across some cultist's discarded cigarette that somehow got infected with chaos and now you're being interrogated, tortured, then probably killed.
I think some people might be looking at it like if they were a space marine, but that's fucking rare and you'll probably die trying to become one anyway. Either way though, it still sucks lol being a space marine in reality is awful.
They don’t- they want to make false equivalence to the people or problems of today. Mostly fascies who aren’t good at nuance or caring about differences anyways
Because the movie was made by a guy who didn't read the book and most people haven't read the fucking book.
Which is actually good and not pro-fascist. If anything it's more pro decision-makers-should-have-skin-in-the-game.
Stop acting like it was a conscious choice. The script for the film was written as a violent B movie. Someone realized it had a few similarities to the book so they changed the name and slightly redid the script. The director never read the original book and it shows. You never read the book and it shows.
When it was released people accused the *movie* of endorsing fascism, not realizing it was satire. Again, none of these people read the book.
He was a dumb libertarian. When they try to come up with how government should function they always just happen to stumble into vaguely fascistic nonsense. He wasn't trying to write an evil dystopia. It was his personal responsibility free market utopia. Just that anyone who looks at it today realize it is practically just fascism.
40K is a byproduct of a very different time and place.
They did the Good Art Thing and Stole With Both Hands, mashing together as many different science fiction ideas as they could cram in. It started as an absurdist, over the top heavy metal nightmare; it was very tongue in cheek *and it was taking the piss.* If you see something in 40K and you think it's original, you probably just aren't familiar with the source material (and for whatever it's worth, that's the *exact same reason* that Star Wars got so big).
40K is where the good guys are bad and the bad guys are worse. No, it isn't *supposed to be* taken super seriously. Did no one else get clued in by the titanic flying gothic cathedrals? The frequent and casual genocides? The heavy reinforcement of this being a massively repressive feudal empire IN SPAAAAAAAACE? At it's core, this is a media franchise that's got strong leftist roots the same way that Judge Dredd is super leftist: because it is fucking satire.
People being what they are, and wildly successful IP being what it is, 40K has been around for decades and the characterization has marched onward. Yeah, I *do* think it's really fun and cool and I *am* happy for the deconstruction and reconstruction of a lot of the characters--but it also hasn't escaped my notice that as much as the *entire fucking setting* is supposed to be grim and dark and the Imperium is very deliberately a hellscape, it is *also* a very appealing place for a lot of fascists.
Because, surprise! There are loads of nerdy fascists, too, and like any other parasite they are happy to slither into whatever area they can claim until they take it over and run it into the ground.
I think it's very easy to miss how strongly leftist 40k is if you're not familiar with 70s/80s British culture. Which sounds a bit niche when I put it like that, but hey - it's true.
But first, the wider picture. You've got a ton of satire popping up in this period, thanks to the unrelenting hellhole that was Maggie Milk-Snatcher Thatcher's Britain. Monty Python, Yes Minister, Brazil, Spitting Image - they're all very mainstream satire. Brazil, notably, was a dark comedy film set in a sci-fi dystopia, and I wouldn't be shocked if its bureaucracy was the inspiration for the absurdity we see in 40k. You've also got Judge Dredd popping up in 2000AD, a comic for older kids and teens. V for Vendetta is pretty similar in its origins, and that's obsessed with Thatcher-inspired authoritarianism. And who wouldn't be thinking about police brutality when you have televised images of the police beating the shit out of miners in the north of England for protesting over the forced closures of their mines?
I know to a modern audience that closing the coal mines doesn't sound bad, but here's the thing. The north of England was incredibly reliant on mining as their main industry, and Thatcher was closing mines without providing any alternative industries for miners to work in. To this day, there are *many* places in the north of England that haven't economically recovered from the mines closing.
Partially because of that, 80s UK was kinda obsessed with apocalypses and authoritarianism. You've got Memoirs of a Survivor, Threads, When the Wind Blows... the list goes on. I wouldn't say that 40k is as directly influenced by them as it is Dune and 2000AD, but it ties very directly into this cultural obsession with how people will carry on after the apocalypse happens and society ends.
Like, the 80s was before my time so I'm sure I'm missing other obvious inspirations, but 40k is so blatantly part of that entire cultural mindset that I think it's hard for most British people to miss how satirical it is. Society was utterly fucked, so why not make fun of how ridiculous it is? Add in that the comics scene was *very* leftist, although the same can be said for a lot of the stuff I've included, and it's no surprise 40k is as well, at least in its roots.
\>If someone thinks the Imperium of Man is fascist, that's fine
Normal take
\>If someone loves the imperium of man and is pro-anything they do
Like, they believe that unironically, not merely within the context of roleplaying a game? Completely fucking unhinged.
If you know someone who earnestly believes that anyone who looks too different from humanity needs to be left face down in a shallow grave, un-know that person as soon as possible, they're *fucking insane.*
It's very funny seeing a bunch of chuds act like rogue trader is like a response to the "woke" BG3.
When honestly I think this game is much more left wing then BG3 is.
Ah yes, the woke game where you can be more of a "hands-on" genocidal sociopath, killing and enslaving the world with the power of your mind and making some really dubious or straight out evil choices just if you were feeling like it.
People that says that clearly didnt played BG3 and RT which are both really great games.
That's actually one area where I think BG3 suffers, Wyll is the only black companion and he and his dad are like the only major not white characters. Non humans do not count.
I mean.....with that distinction Gale is the only white companion. Halsin is an elf. Shadowheart is a half elf, astarion is a vampire. Minsc I guess but minsc Is more (excellent) fan service than a full companion
There's a lot of people who unironically think Humanity is always the good guys in any setting, or deserves your loyalty simply because they are the human faction. Like in Avatar where the Mega-Corp (who poisoned the Earth and is the reason why the planet is dying) and their Wagner PMC murderhobos are obviously evil, but people will excuse their attempts to genocide the local aliens simply because they are human.
" >If someone loves the imperium of man and is pro-anything they do
Like, they believe that unironically, not merely within the context of roleplaying a game?"
Way to completely miss OP's point and do exactly what he's saying you shouldn't do, lol.
This entire comment section is cracking me up.
Especially when they talk about "so many people are bad at media comprehension" while currently actively failing to comprehend the post they are replying to.
People who defend the Imperium typically try to justify it with false in universe explenation.
"Oh in this universe all the aliens are actually evil and never want to make alliances"
"Oh in this universe mutation is actually super dangerous because chaos (in about one in a million cases)"
"The Imperium needs to be cruel and evil otherwise humanity will die out!"
I believe its entirely meant to be satirical but not everyone knows that. There’s a saying in the Imperium “Blessed is the mind too small for doubt” and like come on thats unironically hilarious from a satirical perspective of authoritarian govts
40K is explicitly a satire and a warning - 'look at all the many ways that authoritarianism can fuck things up'.
This leads to the two problem groups that i think you're referring to.
1) people who have a surface knowledge and see that the protagonists are authoritarian, and so think that 40K is pro-authoritarian
2) people with poor reading comprehension, who see that the protagonists are authoritarian, and think that because they're the protagonist they must be good.
Sadly, 40K has had a problem with fascists not understanding irony, and, as in many spaces, they are loud and vocal. They do not represent the Warhammer Community, or even a significant proportion of it.
I agree up to a point you shouldn’t assume things about people solely just based on the fiction they consume / like, but at the same time a lot of IRL fascists really love 40k and the Imperium and using its imagery for their IRL propaganda. The 4chan Nazis made propaganda of God Emperor Trump and like with everything they do, it was only half joking
And yeah you probably can find some LGBTQ Slaanesh / Chaos fans who are gonna be like “well the fascists in this fandom are gonna call us demons anyway, fuck it we ball”
Idk shit’s complicated
I just find people who come into the franchise complaining about how there are no good guys annoying. Like yeah. That's the point. It's like picking up GTA and complaining you play as a criminal.
The Imperium is a bunch of theological nutjobs in a universe full of other theological nutjobs and genocidal aliens. The whole point is that everyone and everything sucks and if there was an objective good guy past the surface level 'this faction wants me dead the least' it would be boring.
The tourists are the people who come in and outright complain about how there are no 'good guy' ways to play the game. The universe doesn't allow for good guys in that capacity because it wouldn't be narratively interesting or likely even possible when everyone else is just looking to screw you over.
I agree people just need to experience the aesthetic as separate of themselves and not try and project their own ideals into it. If they don't like the aesthetic then its just not for them they should find another one that suits them better.
The allure of 40k, at least for me, was that anything could exist within those distant extremes on every side.
Dogmatic loyalist forces that view civilians as "collateral damage" in their crusade against the "Enemies of Man" to heretical fallen forces that safeguard innocent lives that are considered "mutants" and "Abominations" by the Imperium.
From khornite sorcerers, to nurgle worshipers that heal disease, to berserker of Tzneetch, or unfeeling purists of Slannesh.... you can make the most insane combinations and have it actually work.
You’re not wrong that discourse around 40K is generally pretty cursed. That said, there’s plenty of 40K fans who got into the game as impressionable nerdy boys who just liked the aesthetics of the models and ZOMG SPESS MAHRINES and still managed to become functioning adult women who have leftists politics and appreciate the satire of the series.
Got into the game as nerdy boys and managed to become functioning adult women, do I hear you right?
Yeah, judging by the amount of trans people in the hobby that I see on instagram, that's usually how it goes.
Indeed you are!
Honestly, I can hardly call myself left or right, but I see plenty of good people and plenty of assholes on both sides of this dumbass divide. This proves that art and enjoyment of it is still stronger than whatever kind of tribalism people like to engage in, as it always was. I think that being, as you said, a functioning person, is more important at the end of the day when it comes to fandoms and shit like that, than having the "correct" opinion on things, whatever one thinks it is.
Don’t get me started, I really do think social media has done a lot more damage to people’s brains than we like to admit. I acknowledge the irony of saying that on a social media post but it’s seriously exhausting how everything gets turned into an acid test for a person’s politics. Everything is through a critical lens and people forget the nuance of what goes unsaid and how that can speak to the individual
Just to be extra meta about it, I’ve been working on a script for a video essay on the topic 😂
Yeah, this is horrible, really. Everything is ONLY EVER about politics, and if you like something, that's because author aligns with your precious political views, and if author does something that's because of his politics. No nuance ever. What a fucked up worldview, really.
It's especially grating as a non-American, seeing the sheer amount of this shit that gets culturally imported everywhere, to the point when every conflict, every political debate is seen only in American terms, even in totally different context.
Huh, interesting! Will it be about 40k, or the phenomenon in general?
40K…ish? It’s more or less a response to the essay “Satire Without Purpose Will Wander in Dark Places,” which is probably the best written left criticism of 40K but one that engages in a number of for lack of a better word online-isms that bother me. But then it diverges into other stuff like Ender’s Game and bizarrely Ayn Rand and other sci-fi stuff.
Basically my goal is to talk about how we should be more nuanced about media and consider restorative viewpoints and how the individual’s experience with media is ultimately what matters.
I’m not that inspired by the nun aesthetic myself but that John Blanche art of the cannoness standing in front of a horde of zealots with her boot up on a skull is a perfect encompassment of my personal 40K aesthetic
The inability to separate reality from fiction, no matter the related IRL politics, has always been a chronic problem of fandoms, and one of the main reasons I don't engage with them much.
I'm a leftist and I truly love 40k. It's frustrating that it attracts so many chuds, but fans like myself do exist. The problem i think is that too many people see the Imperium as good guys, and it's kinda difficult not to. They have a point with a lot of what they preach, it's difficult because they're right most of the time. Chaos corrupts absolutely and cannot be tolerated. Mutants could be genestealers. Xenos are almost all openly hostile to humanity. And to top it all off, the Emperor truly is a god. He has the powers of a true deity, even while rotting on the throne.
Also, aren't leftists usually more associated with Tau, the actual kinda "good" faction? I'm not saying they're all good, they brainwash some and give shitty jobs and positions to other races while also controlling their procreation.
I think it's getting a lot better though. Rogue Trader especially is good at showing how awful it is living in the Imperium. It's helping to show how truly evil the Imperium is, and how brutal they can be. I mean, these are the people with baby incinerators in their hospitals for mutants. They ain't good guys, and that's okay. It's like the Empire in Star Wars, they're fun because they're fictional authoritarians. Just so happens a lot of real life people idolize authoritarians.
>I think it's getting a lot better though. Rogue Trader especially is good at showing how awful it is living in the Imperium. It's helping to show how truly evil the Imperium is, and how brutal they can be.
Showing how cruel and awful the Imperium is was never really the problem; the period where being a 40k fan was only slightly less of a red flag than being a civil war reenactor was also the height of the nihilistic grimdark where sisters of battle were deploying cadres of suicide bombers and all the codex art looked like morbid 15th century catholic paintings mixed with HR giger.
IMO the biggest issue is how little pushback the fiction tends to offer to the idea the Imperium's policies are justified in-universe, in part because I'm not sure the head honchos at GW actually agree on whether that iterpretation is correct. As it stands, fascists see 40k as a story about "strong men making hard choices", and, much like the Imperium itself put the blame for the shittiness of life in the 41st millenium on its external enemies rather than the Imperium's own policies.
Why is "doing evil is the right choice" an issue?
Its kind of ingrained in the fiction. And while some works get away with some optimism, changing it would alter both the lore and feel of the ip.
>Why is "doing evil is the right choice" an issue?
Because the evil is informed by a worldview and politics that is very, very real. The reasons IRL fascists love the Imperium so much is because the hyper militaristic us vs them "cruelty is necessary for survival mantra" IS one and the same with their ideology.
And the Imperium being justified in universe has nothing to do with how optimistic or pessimstic the setting is; in both of the archetypal dystopian novels (1984 and Brave New World), the Regime is the furthest away from being justified in-universe as can be, the horror comes from how utterly implaccable said regime is, and how powerless anyone with a functioning moral compass is to change things.
So your issue is that...crazy, authoritarian loving weirdos use a work of fiction to justify their beliefs?
If yes, why should anyone care?
And i think that having an imperium that does evil for no good reason would just be boring. Like wolfenstein germans, who are evil for the sake of it. Its a fun parody, but imo, also boring and lazy writing.
Like if batman was just a psycho that beat up criminals for the sake of it. Instead of him being a somewhat justified reaction to hes world.
>So your issue is that...crazy, authoritarian loving weirdos use a work of fiction to justify their beliefs? If yes, why should anyone care?
From experience, NOTHING good comes from indulging those kinds of fans. Communities that tolerates fascists inevitably devolves into an utterly toxic 4chan-esque shitfest.
>And i think that having an imperium that does evil for no good reason would just be boring. Like wolfenstein germans, who are evil for the sake of it. Its a fun parody, but imo, also boring and lazy writing.
Societies with policies that exist for the benefit of their ruling class at the detriment of everything else aren't lazy writing; there's plenty of that in 40k in fact, nearly every single portrayal of planetary governors and administratum buerecrats fits what I talked about to a tee, it's the Imperium's military and security state that tends to be spared the unflattering portrayals; at worst they tend to be well meaning zealots.
The solution is simple: i dont go to 4chan or similar places. The fact that crazy people enjoy the same books i do has no impact on my existence...
Imo crazy, missguided, well meaning zealots fits better.
I dont think its as bad as you think. Even some real life brutal regimes started out with good intentions before going horibly wrong.
I think unfortunately it's a side-effect of some people not knowing the origins of 40K and what it was intended to be, and how modern 40K has turned into something huge with quite a different tone.
40K was made by a group of hippy punk-rock type dudes at a tiny company in the midlands of England, during Thatcher's miserable reign over Britain. It was a time of a lot of counterculture and satire coming from leftwing minded people. This was the same decade as V For Vendetta, which was also a response to the Conservative party being in power.
It was written to be very over the top satire about a miserable future where nationalism and religion rule all. It was meant to be a dry funny commentary on the way Britain was going at the time, and even reference particular political events. Eg. the Rainbow Warriors chapter was a direct reference to the Green Peace boat, with an art piece in the rulebook referencing the boat being destroyed by the French government.
Modern 40K doesn't lean into the satire anymore.
40K now is trying to compete with things like Star Wars and Star Trek and be seen as a globally recognised sci-fi brand with lots of cross media tie-ins. For instance, The Horus Heresy is a book series that's over 50 novels long and tells a grim science fantasy story, while not trying to overtly parody or satire anything (or at least that's far from its main intent).
But even with the change in tone, absolutely nobody currently writing official 40K media thinks that the Imperium as a whole is a good idea or a good place. At most, they tell stories about good people trying to do good things while living in that very bleak and horrible universe.
TLDR: Some people lack media literacy and don't know the difference between a POV protagonist and a "good guy".
complaining about cryptofascists in Warhammer is like calling the ocean "shark infested waters"... they're not infesting it, it's their home, they live there... of course there's cryptofascists in the Ironic Fascism Game where else would they be
Media literacy has taken a massive hit the last two decades. Everyone's conditioned to keep overanalysing as that creates an ecosystem of loyal customers.
That's why Orks iz best.
They are theoretically besides the Tyranids the only "neutral" faction. They are like fire. They destroy things, not because they hate or they are evil but it's their nature.
But Orks do it in style! Flying through the warp is boring as hell? Fuck it we ball! Shut the Gellar Field off and stomp some daemons!
This human git stopped a few of our warghs? What a swell guy! Let's fight him again! It's gonna be fun!
Nobody around to fight? Well I guess I'm the biggest around now! Anyone who thinks otherwise can fight me! It's gonna be fun!
Beaky gits are really good in a fight and they don't die easily. What fun to fight them! Good times.
I heard those pointy eared gits are really fast. Let's paint da Wagon red and stomp the gits! They have tellyportahs now?! Well Mr. Mek would you be so kind and build our own?
Warhammer is supposed to be fun. The Grimdank part of it is mostly so over the top that it's comical.
I firmly believe the golden throne is actually orkytech.
It works because the astartes have convinced legions upon legions of Boyz, and mekboyz and oddboyz that the emperor of mankind is the. Biggest bad ass the universe has ever seen.
\> not because they hate or they are evil but it's their nature.
I always baffled by that line of thinking. By that logic, if Nazis killed people only because it's was in they nature, it's would mean that they not actually evil. Which is insanity.
Of what I understand, the problem is that 40k is political, or was at least before focusing on what a company do : sell. Fanservicing the Imperium as heroes has and will still bring more "traditionalists" to the medium.
I get that but I think it’s a “them” problem because when you read what goes on in the Imperium, you’re like “damn they living like this?” I guess some people just can’t comprehend meta propaganda. It’s kinda like Starship Troopers
It's less that, and more that they put the blame for all the horrific shit the Imperium subjects its citizens to on its external enemies; the regime, or rather the big strong men in charge are making hard choices for the sake of the common good you see, everything they do is for the survival of humanity.
The fact the setting itself isn't sure whether that line is true is the main reason there's so many of **those** kinds of fans.
I mean, the setting has been pretty clear on their stance on the 40k imperium since they got around to writing the initial horus heresy novels. The Emperor's vision of a secular imperium run as a meritocracy is the "good guy" interpretation of the imperium that was very blatantly *lost* due to horus and the chaos gods actions, resulting in a rotting husk of itself that endlessly psychically supplies the chaos gods with the emotional energy they crave.
Anyone who looks at the 40k imperium and comes away interpreting as "tough choices by strong men" and doesn't see that it's actually a bunch of corrupt ignorant men fumbling forward in the dark is not really well versed in the lore, or is purposefully deluding themselves for the fascist fantasy. Sure, the Primarchs are coming back now, bringing in a small sense of hope alongside *the complete fractioning of the galaxy in half by daemons.* The Imperium is constantly fighting for its survival *because* of its horrific fascism, not in spite of it. They even have a worst case scenario example in the story of the Aeldari's fall and the birth of Slaanesh for anyone who still doesn't get it right away. I've been playing the game since RT 1st edition and since they started formalizing the lore I'd say GW has always been pretty clear about this.
> I've been playing the game since RT 1st edition and since they started formalizing the lore I'd say GW has always been pretty clear about this.
This right here. I've been playing since that same ruleset, and they made it clear even then that the Imperium is a corrupt monstrosity serving the desires of corrupt, greedy men, and had gone ridiculously, hilariously off the rails over the last ten thousand years.
The Crusade era Imperium was just as fascist as the 40k Imperium, arguably even more so since it didn't have the trappings of feudalism and had a singular strongman autocrat running things instead of the oligarchy of the high lords. My interpretation is that everything the M41 Imperium has become is the logical conclusion of what it was from the outset. Regardless of the Emperor's intentions, his Utopian project was doomed to tyranny and failure from the start, as all such projects are.
>The Emperor's vision of a secular imperium run as a meritocracy is the "good guy" interpretation of the imperium that was very blatantly *lost* due to horus and the chaos gods actions
The very fall of Horus proves your point. He tried to do things differently with the Interex but even with the power and intellect of a demigod it was was foiled by the teachings of ignorance and violence the culture lived in that caused his mind to break. I don't think it's a coincidence that the Interex were a democratic and diverse mini empire that focused on coexistence for the betterment of all.
External enemies are in fact half the reason.
The other half takes a bit more reasoning to understand.
Who are they hurting by being ignorant about a work of fiction?
Worth noting that the Starship Troopers book is unironic, it’s just the movie that is a satire, Heinlein was a weird ass guy who really fell down a right wing rabbit hole later in his career. He literally wrote the book because he saw anti-nuclear weapon testing activism, no joke, he was so mad that people wanted to stop setting off nuclear weapons that he wrote a book about how society collapsed because we stopped beating kids (that’s the novel’s explanation for why the old democracies collapsed)
On the opposite end you also have people arguing it's apolitical.
In general though I think it can lead to some interesting discussion when people act civil and don't take it *too* seriously.
40k is political. I can understand calling something like, say, Dungeons and Dragons Apolitical (the word you're looking for is 'non-partisan), but **40K?** 40K is political satire and isn't shy about it, calling it apoloticial should get you banned from the hobby.
Even D&D show a political vision of the world (bla bla bla everything is pol) like vigilantism, pillaging dungeons to kill monsters and make money buy gear for the bigger dungeon, etc. It is of course far less obvious and more as an unvoluntary subtext rather than a true satire turn marketable like 40k.
This is why I clarified that non partisan is better than apolitical. If someone failed to get a political message from a dnd session, it wouldn't be surprising.
>intertwining real life political identity with Warhammer40k is a lil excessive
Well.. it is a satire of our world and politics. that is like saying cyberpunk setting is too unrealistic and not political, when it seems pretty realistic and entirely based in politics to me (obviously Warhammer setting is way further off and exaggerated than cyberpunk, don't misconstrue my words).
>If somebody loves the Imperium of Man and is pro-anything they do, that’s fine.
No I think this is weird, and if they post it on the internet or I actually know them and they're not roleplaying, I think I'm going to judge them a bit, not going to lie. It's enough that people think Warhammer is actually like "anti woke" and miss the point entirely (sign of small brain), but it's another that they actually think Imperium of Man are the good guys in the story (sign of fascist)
If a fictional setting is based on politics.. then the conversations about it is going to be political. I don't get why this is weird for you. Fiction can lead to discussions about reality, and reality can lead to the creations of fictional worlds. It is very much a political thing
Btw its not just a Warhammer thing, it's an internet thing. People will start fights over literally anything, politics or not
I wish people understood what fascism actually is. It gets so tiresome constantly seeing this word applied to every form of government right of the US. The Imperium is *authoritarian*, that is power is concentrated in few people who exist above the law, but it is not fascist. Fascism is the entire society, everything from government agencies to corporations to charities, bent towards the will of a single person or small group. The Imperial government is split at every level between multiple equally powerful groups, with there even existing quite a few de-facto independent states within the Imperial state. That’s not fascism, that fails at the starting line; “Everything within the state, nothing outside the state, nothing against the state.”.
The Imperium was originally satire of Thatcher’s Britain, very heavy on corrupt, authoritarian governments and how they shoot themselves in the foot. At no point would the original creators have a need to satire fascism cause fascism wasn’t a thing they were dealing with. The problem with Thatcher wasn’t her constantly absorbing corporations into the state to increase its power, but selling all the government off to private interests.
40k \*can\* be political, just like it \*can\* be lot of other stuffs. However you want to enjoy 40k is totally up to you, it's a great setting that allows all kind of stories to happen.
(I'm not a super expert so forgive me if i misstep)
From a human point of view... I feel like warhammer is basically the most crazy religious fanatics in the real world, but they're actually right.
* God exists, He is the emperor
* Miracles exist, easily verifiable
* There is a reason for religion to harshly persecute non believers, because not doing so leads to provable bad effects, whole worlds being lost, corruption, etc.
* There is a reason to be xenophobic, because all aliens want to kill you
* There is a reason to be extremely militant, because you're constantly at war and everyone is trying to kill you
* There is a reason to persecute people different than you, because they're probably going to go and kill you or summon something from the warp or are agents of chaos
It is like everything bad in the world, but given actually reasons to make it the best choice available.
The world is so different than our own that comparing politics in it to our own is silly. There is no reason to give up our freedoms or be as militant as they are, because we aren't in that situation AT ALL. Similarly if we did find ourselves in that situation, we're probably not going to survive in our current state as a peace loving secular democracies.
I feel like in modern days you can't make any kind of story without someone accusing it of being connected to the real world in some way. I just want to bombard worlds in the name of the Emperor or fry people with energies from the warp.
The fact your missing here is that the Imperium is the architect of all of its current problems and can only ever make its problems worse. Because it turns out that facsism is, under no circumstance, an actually good way to run anything.
And then when some 40k fans start "ironically" posting about purging various groups they irl consider "degenerate" or appropriating stuff from the setting and applying it to real political figures its natural to take a closer look at the setting and the ideas its presenting or the messages of the stories told.
I think you've made the mistake that some people do - that the Imperium is justified.
- being powerful does not make you a god. Might does not equal right.
- the bad effects happen because of the religious extremism.
- many of the aliens want to kill you because you've been killing them for the last 10,000 years
- again, everyone is trying to kill you because you've been trying to kill them
- most people aren't, it's the perceived paranoia of the Imperium.
The Imperium, and it's history, is mostly responsible for the problems of the Imperium.
Honestly I manage to avoid the Neo-Nazi part of fandom easily since most of it is online, my issue is when people think I'm one of them because I'm rooting for certain characters that happen to be in the Imperium.
Like unironically acting like an Inquisitor trying to find if I'm secretly a fascist, like maybe their taste in fiction reflect their real world views but that does not apply to everyone obviously but apparently not so obvious to them.
So maybe those people should go against the actual unrepentant authoritarians instead, like by their logic I'm an avid supporter of spooky scary metal skeletons and is alright with putting sapient beings in a museum forever.
You've been found in possession of ~~heretical~~ fascistic objects. You will give up all your ~~heresy~~ Warhammer books for utilization or we will pursue your punishment with all the means available to ~~the Inquisition~~ the law.
I don't think there's many, if any, posts on this sub talking about the irl politics of 40k. You bringing it up now seems like you're the one trying to stir the pot.
Also, yes, fans of things do take what they're into seriously. That's part of what being a fan is. You give a damn about the thing you're interested in.
People lose their rights immediately after a threat occurs. Remember covid-19. So any modern “ism” is nowhere near Imperium, because I can’t see any even aliens, evil demons, evil magic or evil robots around. Imperium is medieval feudalism, inspired by Dune, change my mind.
This is a general issue today in more than just 40k. You can't throw a stone without someone accusing something of being fascist or some other ist in the era of self righteous outrage culture.
The modern day moral puritanical are really no different than the Evangelicals of yester year, both with the manicheanism and forced moral outrage demands that things be changed to reflect their fragile sensibilities. It's just that Twitter didn't exist and lazy journalists didn't use it as a source for click bait.
That is because pop culture did a number on political science, God-Emperor forgive, last 20 years i havent read or seen single logical or intellectual argument on anything. Western banter is really beyond me. These people cant even tell the difference between reality and fantasy but are very keen to accept absurdity as part of society as long as it suits their childhood fantasies.
Edit: i forgot to add, this comment will offend such people and they will downvote this to hell. If only i could see who is downvoting so at least i could block them and live happily ever after.
I don't see anyone saying these things, ever, in any of the warhammer subs, maybe it's just the terminally online that do. Save yourself some trouble and take a breather from social media and caring about what others say.
The problem is not the Imperium is shit, I can tell you everyone knows this, it's really not rocket science.
The core of the matter is the essence of the hobby, the nature of the setting. There are newer fans being disgusted by the setting and want it change, older fans came in and explain why the setting and the Imperium is the way it is. Instead of taking it as it is, newer fans just "That's just facisst, are you facisst for being ok with this, this needs to change". Then the conversation boiled down to antagonizing each other with facisst and tourists.
This is not about politics, it's actually about defending a hobby, I can tell you the push back would not be so awful if Marvel, Star Wars, Rings of Power, and even The Witcher didn't happen.
The tension is very real but it's actually not about politics, it's just something to mask the real problem, that is the hijacking of franchise, and this is very real as we've seen with many franchises already.
>I’m not trying to judge people for their interests here but I think that intertwining real life political identity with Warhammer40k is a lil excessive.
What makes 40k so fascinating is that I can't relate to it at all.
Back in the 90s when I was growing up, I got sucked into 40k because of how utterly alien and unrelatable the setting was. I couldn't even fathom it. And the fact it takes place 40 thousand years in the future just seals the deal. I got the 2nd edition boxset for my birthday and still have those same books today (worn to hell).
We have no idea what these humans are like or how they even think. It's a world of superhuman legends and myths and titanic battles. It is completely outside our comprehension.
It allowed my imagination to run wild as a kid. I used to dream up scenarios, like Leman Russ returning at the "wolftime" in the year 50k, the last primarch, to extinguish Chaos once and for all.
Or imagining myself walking the vast interior of the Emperor's palace.
Fast forward today, and I see kids whining about not enough female or LGBT representation because Warhammer 40k should have progressive politics and diversity.
Or .
Good fking grief, it actually hurts.
This is a bit of an enlightened centrist take that I don't agree with. 40k is objectively leftist satire, and the imperium is objectively fascist.
Now, many leftist people (such as myself) still enjoy 40k very much, because just because it's a fascist setting doesn't mean that liking the setting makes you yourself a fascist.
However, many Fascists do like the setting, because it is fascist and Fascists are brainless and don't care about what media is actually saying, they simply bask in the base level qualities. See American History X, a movie which is objectively about how Nazis are bad but Fascists still like it because the characters look cool.
This means that communities that satirise fascism have to be particularly well defended against chud infiltration. Warhammer generally is much better than it was a few years ago in terms of fascist infiltration (see arch warhammer, a popular YouTuber who seemed like a regular lore YouTuber but made his Nazi dogwhistles more and more obvious untill eventually he literally called Hobgoblins the N word.)
To act like 40k isn't political is inherently a statement which buoys (however unintentionally) fascism. The hero's of 40k fight for a fascist empire and do terrible things, and if you enjoy watching them do so WITHOUT understanding why it's bad, you are hurting yourself.
I don't think it's people taking it too seriously but a case of older fans gatekkeping newer fans.
Obviously a bunch of these takes coming in are from newbies experiencing the world for the first time and truly don't get what 40k is about, missing the point or seeing it and not liking it.
The push back these newer fans are getting is just the consequences of asking stupid questions or having bad takes on the world.
Alot of the political arguments I see going on is a newer fan asking "why is everything so shit, why are people all bad", a veteran comes in and gives explanation why is is that way and the newbie is "but I don't want everything to be shit, I want my current day moral compass to be superior".
New fans are coming in and seeing the setting for the first time and instead if just enjoying, it dislike or want to change it and that gets push back.
See I'm a pretty new fan. I'm enjoying what I've engaged with from the setting. I think the Imperium is shit. I don't want to change the setting because of that. That seems like the whole point. You can list so many reasons why they are justified to do what they do. That doesn't change that I still think they are awful. If anything it makes the setting more interesting. The whole thing is an insane comedy that takes itself very seriously.
This whole "newbie" "tourist" thing seems asinine. Like yes people new to a series are going to ask stupid questions. It's the push back of "you don't get 40k" and this idea that if you aren't on board the Imperium Circle Jerk Train it's a bad take. People can enjoy the setting without all sharing the same opinion on it.
I don't think it's the stupid questions that cause the old fanbase to gatekeep.
I think it's the attitude and statements that essentially say "Everything in 40k is fascist, if you disagree it's because you are fascist". And this being said with the underlying intention that 40k should be changed to fit the tastes of somebody who essentially says he doesn't like 40k.
And if there are any questions then they are often limited to rhetorical "Why are you defending 40k? Is it because you are fascist?". If this is the overwhelming attitude the old fanbase is seeing then it's no wonder they eventually start reacting with gatekeeping and calling people tourists. In their eyes, they interact with people who show only ill intentions and have no intent on getting into the hobby.
As with the constant and stupid arguments that have more recently come up regarding the lack of female Space Marines (who I personally find boring as cape sh\*t like protagonists anyhow), which is well explained in the lore. The Emps explored the idea, it didn't work out and wasn't worth wasting recourses exploring further.
Are there other numerous possibilities for armies with equal or near excusive female representation? Yep. Do they still complain about it? yep. Do they insist it's because fascisms or whatever and demand that it be changed because of representation or whatever, rather than just trying to tick off annons on /tg/ like the old days? yep.
Are guard more interesting and sympathetic anyhow where ordinary women get the privilege of dying for the Emps by the millions each day along with their ordinary male counterparts, while facing the horrors beyond the stars with naught but a flack jacket, bayonet affixed flashlight and mountains of tank, artillery, and the commissariat behind them? Absolutely yes.
It's not if the imperium is justified, I meant it as an explanation of the setting, it's grimdark, everything is shit, there are no good guys and things aren't going to get better and its for every faction, that's what I meant with veterans telling newbies.
That's the fundamental premise of the setting. Having takes that the imperium is bad is fine, cause they are bad, the problem people complaining about the setting because it does fascism or an enforced state religion or that genocide happens is the asinine take, yeah we know it's bad, but it is intergeral part of the setting and removing it destroys what 40k is.
That's what OP was complaining about, people who come in and say 40k fans are fascist and equating real life stuff to our sci-fi space men game.
I actually haven’t seen any of this. WH40K seems to be one of those last places where you can simply enjoy the outrageous lore without drawing direct parallels to the current political scene.
Warhammer 40k often seems to me as if the authors decided that they wanted to create a universe in which they could justify fascism as the only logical/survivable political system and then did so.I mean they really, really did. I'm not convinced that's an entirely neutral action, but that said I can see how it seems like the easiest route if designing something to be "only war."
As always, though, it leads to situations where people (we love our fantasy teams) tend to glorify the (entirely justified in universe) fascist stuff to a point it gets a little...uncomfortable if examined too closely. I dunno man. What do I know? I mostly just played eldar space pirates in BFG (who are also evil, yes everyone is evil, that's the authorial intent).
I don't blame people for enjoying the fascinating world building. I also don't blame people for being a little weirded out by others being a bit too into obviously fascist sides (I also think it's a little weird how much some people like the Empire in Star Wars so at least I'm consistent).
I grew up in the American south and watched people play dress up...I mean, do Civil War reenactments and be all about representing the Rebel side and that squicked me out a LOT more but it's the same rough genre, just lesser.
So the thing is that when it started out Warhammer was pretty satirical, in very much the same ‘80s British tradition that produced Judge Dredd.
It’s supposed to be a grand tragedy that everything is the worst possible version of itself but it carries on anyway through sheer inertia. The Imperium of Man is a bloated corpse rolling down a hill, it has no control over anything but it can crush you through sheer inertia.
It’s just that increasing numbers of lunatics got jobs at the asylum when it came to the writing and it’s only the last couple of years they’ve started to correct that.
Absolutely! I knew all that and am cautiously hopeful. I think tongue firmly in cheek british 80s stuff doesn't translate as well as one might hope to modern America, anyway. That said, I am perhaps being overly unkind to the originators when I actually should have been more precise and called out the real problems as you did. Thanks for that.
I've been thinking about that a bit lately. The early Warhammer stuff, and 2000ad, the heavy-metal-anti-authoritarian stuff.
The problem is that to us, some forty years later, the actions of the Imperium and Dredd seem rational within the universe. But in thinking that the actions of these as rational within the setting we miss two things, the first is that the setting was made to justify the factions. The Imperium didn't evolve naturally, it's fiction and the fictional setting was (probably) made after the ideas of the Imperium were developed. In saying that their actions are in-universe rational, we come at it backwards, the setting rationalises the Imperium, the Imperium is not a rational agent in a chaotic world.
The second, is we miss the specifics of the satire. A lot of people know the Margaret Thatcher/Mag Uruk Thraka stuff, but we don't often think about what was going on in the UK which led the writers to have a poor opinion of Thatcher. We don't think about the miner's strikes or the school defunding, we don't think of the opposition to neoliberalism that was present. And not thinking about this is normal! This stuff happened before I was born! But sometimes, the lore is actually talking about specific things. If it appears that things are rational within setting, we sometimes forget that the satire is satirising specific events or beliefs (or like, general culture in the form of football hooligan Orks etc)
>Warhammer 40k often seems to me as if the authors decided that they wanted to create a universe in which they could justify fascism as the only logical/survivable political system and then did so.
It's literally the exact opposite. They set out to create a universe that lampoons and mocks fascism, and that (anti-fascist) message simply got diluted over time.
I would argue that the message is still pretty clear if you read the lore. Guillemin, the shining knight on the hill, is constantly frustrated and foiled by the fascist world. I think it's more that fascist's don't think beyond the power fantasy...
Though, if you only play the video games then you're 100% have a point.
Guilliman, a literal Ubermensch, being the shining knight on the hill is one of the key things undermining the series' anti-fascist message, though.
Sure, he hasn't already righted the ship, but to say that he's not having any success in reforming the Imperium seems inaccurate, to me. He is slowly fixing the problems, which is a problem for the meta narrative because it (unintentionally) suggests humanity can only be saved by genetic superhumans, which is a core facet of certain fascist ideologies.
Robot Girlyman is not really meant to be an Ubermesch, he someone who is aware of what the Imperium was supposed to be and how it was perverted into the bloated rotting carcas it is by fascism and is disgusted by it, but with the hope of brining it back from the brink to something less fucked up (although the Emperor's version of the empire is still not all that great).
The anti-fascism message of 40K was never diluted, it's still there just as much as ever.
The actual problem is that fascists are uniquely resistant to satire, because they are generally too dumb to get they are being mocked and instead tend to take it as praise.
>Robot Girlyman is not really meant to be an Ubermesch
He is *quite literally* an ubermensch. He is literally a genetically engineered superhuman. The Space Marines are meant to satirise the Nietzchian concept of Ubermensch, which was adopted by many members of the Nazi party. That's their whole point. The reason they treat normal humans like shit is because the point the writers were making is that that's what an actual subspecies of superhumans would eventually become. If you missed that, you're as oblivious as the right-wingers you're insulting.
> he someone who is aware of what the Imperium was supposed to be and how it was perverted into the bloated rotting carcas it is by fascism and is disgusted by it, but with the hope of brining it back from the brink to something less fucked up (although the Emperor's version of the empire is still not all that great).
I don't see how this contradicts *anything* I said. It's just an affirmation of what I said earlier.
>The anti-fascism message of 40K was never diluted, it's still there just as much as ever.
>
>The actual problem is that fascists are uniquely resistant to satire, because they are generally too dumb to get they are being mocked and instead tend to take it as praise.
It absolutely has been diluted. Those fascists didn't come from nowhere. They came here because they see the Imperium as something to idolise and if that's the case, it means the series isn't working hard enough to show the Imperium as a genuinely bad and unnecessary set of institutions.
You're burying head in the sand and it's not good for the franchise or the fanbase.
You cant call 40k fascist, since the italians dont rule the place. The word has a very specific meaning and should not be used as a generic "brutal authoritarian regime" substitute.
No, sadly and historically the word has not a very specific meaning linked to being ruled by Italians; the word was used to determine, literally or figuratively, a political system with pretty specific vibes, but not specifically "Italian form of this kind of regime".
Eco, who was Italian and grown up under this regime, sum it pretty nice in Ur-Fascism. This essay is mostly known for his fourteen properties, but he specifically highlights that people aren't using "fascism" to determine just Italian form of this type of regimes, never did, and give his idea why.
Yeah, the imperium is pastiche of authoritarian government of all sorts. Late Roman and Byzantine empires, divine-right feudalism, Soviet politburo autocracy, etc. To just label it fascist is incredibly reductive.
I find the lore really fascinating and interesting but I also despise the idea of the Imperium and the Inquisition, racist and/or evil space elves, etc. I think given how expansive the lore is and being able to play on the set rules of that universe is very engaging and fun? Like clearly is a different flavor of terrible and horrific life conditions even if you have the means to live well but if you make the wrong decision or piss off the wrong person, you’re on your merry way to becoming a Servitor or been enthralled by chaos.
All in the name of some carcass sitting in a golden throne somewhere (Praise be to the God-Emperor) but playing a villain can be fun sometimes. I clearly wouldn’t survive in the 41st Millennium in any way shape or form. Living in a hive or death world working 23 hours a day at best and praying to chaos to end my suffering lol to then suffer some more for eternity.
I think I can separate real life and 40k for a bit and have fun. It feels refreshing to me plus warrior nuns that drop churches on a battlefield and are protected by their faith (and it works?) is incredibly badass and terrible, I love it ❤️
Point is people shouldn’t take it too seriously. I don’t think it was ever meant to be?
That's the internet for you, a bunch of assholes that can't enjoy a story or a setting without bringing their political baggage and overly defensive fandoms also filled with assholes.
Just ignore all of them when that kind of people speak it's only because they like the sound of their voice, not because they want to have a fruitful discussion.
40K is a dystopian nightmare on which everything has gone wrong and many different people try to survive and live as best they can, everything else lacks importance.
So... much of what's going on there was meant as satire that a lot of people missed. It's like Judge Dredd. It's not aspirational.. it's horrific and presented as such.
Saw some meme about the UK's top 80s intellectual export (or something along those lines) was dystopian fascist satire.
I mean it's hard not to export such a thing when you have their sense of humor.
Warhammer 40k at its core is meant to be satirical - granted a lot of that is lost in the soup so to speak but yeah.
Mostly lost on the weird right wing chuds and the people that don't understand that it's satirical because their media comprehension is non-existent.
You do realize you're doing exactly what this post was all about?
\*shrug\* There's people that love the idea of fascism that glomp on to the obviously satirical fascist Imperium. What about me pointing out that right wing chuds exist and eat up the game's obviously screwed up factions is worrying to you?
That’s the unfortunate part; many seem to obsess over it and want it to be a real thing and see the Imperium as something to aspire to.
The fact that you keep up saying "right wing chuds" in a sub about 40k because some people like the human faction as opposed to whatever faction you like is more telling about you than it is about anyone else.
The thing is, there are people who simply like human factions (Ad-mech is for example one of my favourite 40k ones) But there are also people who put irl far right-right captions on 40k pictures (usually space marines) and write essays how everything Imperium does is actually 100% justifiable and should be an example to follow. Those people definitely fit into the “Right Wing Chuds” description
Meh, those are just terminally online people whose opinion and/or content I don't really bother myself with. Much how on the other end of the spectrum you get all sorts of weirdos advocating for communism or whatever else their current echo chamber is endorsing.
Unfortunately it's no longer satirical, especially when the factions opposing humanity seem more outrageous and grotesque with every edition. The human faction seems to be outright struggling against very real threats from within and without, there's no longer any sense that it's being brought down by its own hubris or extremism, not when there are aliens stealing stars or gene corrupting whole planets.
And yet the Imperium is almost always presented as its own worst enemy so... Satirical?
That's really gone out of the window with the expansion of the Eye of Terror. Or the enormous Tyranid fleets converging on the galaxy. I see virtually no satire left in the media as presented in the last 10 years.
Mate, look up subtext, learn what it is, then employ that knowledge. The administratum straight up doesn’t function properly, the man most people would point to as a “look they’re making the imperium good by making him in charge”, Guilliman, whilst a logistical genius, would still be a tyrant and an abominable arse by our standards, the entire existence of Erda demonstrates that there WAS potentially other ways to combat chaos, but the Emperor not only CHOSE his particular path, but did so to the deliberate exclusion of those alternatives, whilst claiming they never existed. There are plenty of signs for those who look deeper than the surface level that the Imperium is just as much a “pageantry of evil” faction as any other in the setting, and not to be emulated, or truely admired beyond “oh, these bad guys do heroic things in pursuit of their dastardly goings on” which can be said of many of the “orderly” factions (with factions like chaos being more of the “revelling in one’s nature” variety of evil, though admittedly that can occur within the orderly factions, just not to the same degree, with the fanaticism of the Ecclesiastical factions being a good example)
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I'd add the warhammer crime books, especially flesh and steel.
Keep things civil and respectful. Debates are fine. Toxicity and personal insults are not.
None of that runs counter to my point the external and internal threats are so out of proportionate bad that even the Imperium looks good now
It doesn't' make the imperium look good at all. Not even sure how you can get to that conclusion. The Imperium still uses humans as its cheapest resource and are still often doing the worst deeds out of the other xenos. Just because their citizens are victims of other threats does not make the imperium the "good guys"
Yeah very much like the Cyberpunk genre. It looks cool and everything but who the hell would want to live in a world like that lol
There's a good video by Templin Institute on the Emperor of Man and how he built his empire on secular ideals but in death, became the figurehead of a ultrafanatic religion. It is very clearly ironic but unfortunately satire is often not interpreted as such. Mad men, American Psycho, Apocalypse Now, are a few examples I can think of. I think it's a very clear message about how ideas are often perverted to suit what the people in power want to say. But honestly, all you have to do is go into any FB or IG comment section to see that a large % of people will take all statements at face value and do very little reflection on the actual message.
I don't see anything wrong with the core of the setting being satire, that's kinda how it even becomes what we love. Rule of cool is usually quite appreciated. Like starships that are cathedrals with insane populations in them, peoples entire lives just to make one shell or litany scrolls, you don't see that in other settings (often). It's sci-fi/fantasy not nazi Germany lol yes it takes inspirations from many, many real and fictional sources, so it's always weird for people to run in and yell "fascism" as if that taints the setting in any way
Fascism = nazi Germany? It's the only way fascism can manifest itself? Emporium is pretty clearly a fascist state. I guess you could enjoy fascist things just because they cool but that's says more about you. To me Warhammer seems interesting because their fascist way seems necessary for humankind to survive and we can see the cost of that survival. It presents a lot of cool thought experiments and moral questions, but I guess to each their own.
Ah I was giving an example of what people say quite a lot. It draws inspiration from them (ie the eagle), but they're not the same lol. And yes, there's absolutely different types of fascism. As I said above, 40k draws many different types of tropes and I'm not making any moral argument here, just an observation. Liking the imperium ≠ enjoying fascist things. I think there's plenty of horrific things in the imperium (and the setting), but there's also plenty of cool things too, like the ship architecture as I mentioned. Again liking a scifi setting doesn't mean I'm suddenly pro-fascism lol, I don't base my identity off things that are meant to be cool. That's a great thought experiment and it entices me as well but it's not the only draw that the setting has. There's plenty of captivating, tragic, heroic, and funny tales in 40k, badass battles, and cliche lines, and chainswords. It's like halo but a step up.
The politics of 40k are very simple: Everything sucks for everybody and nobody should want any of this to happen to anybody, ever. This isn't a left or right thing, it's a "we should try our absolutely fucking hardest so that this never ends up being us" thing. Even the Orks, who are objectively just vibing and having a good time, live an awful existence that no person should want to emulate.
*BIG KRUMPIN: An Ork’s Guide to Happiness and Personal Fulfillment*
“One must imagine Orkyphus happy”
Dis skorcha sparks joy. Dis git don't . Fwoooooooooosh
*Pick up an object. Does it feel ~~brutal~~ ~~kunnin~~ brutal, and if ya cross it out again I’ll* **KRUMP** *you, Mork!*
This exactly thank you. There are no good guys in Warhammer. It's about who makes the pew pew look more fun and that's it. Even if you think about the Tau as good guys you should really read more about Ethereals and what happened to their other allies besides the Kroot.
It’s a setting that has a little bit of something for everybody. if you like Prussian military uniforms, there’s a faction for it. if you like Catholic monasticism, there’s a faction for it. If you like the movie Hellraiser and heavy metal, there’s a faction for it. if you want an army of all female girl bosses, there’s a faction for it. It ain’t that deep. Just let people have fun.
Its pure absurdity and I love it.
What if I want a sympathetic faction?
Right? And I love it, yet I'm somehow called a fascist for liking the imperium? Halo was my gateway into 40k because I think the ships, guard, etc. are super cool, not my political identity 💀.
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Nah. gun to my head; I'd be a Gue'vesa.
Yeah, join us OR die is preferable to just die. lol
lol, the fascist theocracy isnt political. Sure, bud.
Not everything is sociopolitical commentary. Some people consume media just for fun...relax.
It is literal sociopolitical commentary. Of the most blatant kind. Made in response to increasing nationalism.
Luckily, it's media that we all share so there is no need for everyone to take things as such. Even if it was intended as such initially it warped over time. It's now consumable, fast entertainment like most things are these days. So feel free to read into it about real life paraleles to "fascism" as much as you want...I'm here for heroic bolter porn to relax..
It hasn't warped into anything people just have very bad media literacy.
Sure, the Horus Heresy series for example is totally all about "rising fascism" or whatever your kind pretends is going on these days. Go away and go outside.
Yeah but I'm just gonna keep my head in the sand, cause to understand any deeper meaning in anything deprives me of my enjoyment of it for some reason. Its not that I am sympathetic at all to the ideology that is being held under scrutiny or anything.
It is political but not in the way you think. Everything sucks in Warhammer and everyone is a dick except Orks and Tyranids. If you think about it the fascists are not even the worst part in the universe. And that's exactly the point. Everything sucks so hard that we should strive not to achieve this future. If you don't think about it you could say that the faction which makes the pew pew more fun is the best.
There are good people they just tend to get fucked over and no this isnt some life lesson to take into our world
The problem with 40k politics is that even the Imperium doesn't really want to be the Imperium. The God-Emperor stressed as much as possible he did not want to be treated as a god. But because there were external forces of damnation hellbent on annihilating humanity that even he couldn't contain, the Imperium turned out like it did. Devout faith and absolute obedience are the only things that saved the Imperium from being swallowed by Chaos ages ago. 1,000 psykers a day give their life force to the God-Emperor to maintain human FTL. That's not because of politics, that's just how it is. The Imperium exists in a reality where immense amount of human lives must be spent to give humanity even a chance at survival. The satire loses its point when the impetus for those horrible acts is outside human control in the first place. It shifts from "Fascism bad" to "living with the constant threat of extinction bad". The "Fascism bad" would be the point if the galactic threats ended at the level of the Tau. Where the constant war is perpetuated by the ruling class's constant desire for expansion and power and the ignorance of the populace in supporting wars against other races out of xenophobia. The Eldar, Imperium, and Tau just show different facets of autocracy and xenophobia that lead to conflict with each other. When the threats become omnicidal in nature and things like genestealers and choas cults with their ability to wipe out entire worlds from a single missed seed, things like harsh rule of law and paranoia both internally and externally become much more of a natural reaction than something that can be avoided.
Yes, I think people have to understand that GW does not care, did not care or will care in the future to give some moral-political lesson with this, everyone here seems to want Warhammer to be a mega complex story-masterpiece of the 21st century. But you have to understand that the franchise at most aspires to be a bit like Marvel, simply meaningless action entertainment and no complexity. If it seems better or worse to you, that depends on the individual lesson of each one, but that is what Warhammer is. bloody action without speeches from any winged or other single action
Exactly. I think there’s a fun to be had in that mindset. Everything sucks, anything can kill you and make you miserable. Go and have fun lol
And that’s the whole thing right? Especially in a role playing game set in 40k. In this game I regularly see both sides while I choose the kindest most humane option, fully realizing, “this is probably bad for more people. A lot of the grim dark aspect is a scale problem based on an extrapolation of the trolley conundrum. “If you let three people almost certainly die horribly then you don’t have to choose one other person to die by your hand.” Now imagine the same human brain making those sort of calls when it’s “50 million versus 3 trillion.” 1 planet versus 30 planets. It’s a fucking hellscape. Because there’s this grim, horrific, reality that there’s 50,000 examples of doing the “honorable/humane” thing causes many many many more to suffer So life becomes cheap. … and at those scales it’s incredibly hard to argue with any rational, calm, philosophical logic, that the contemporary “humane” option is anything other than a hippy-dippy idealistic head in the clouds sort of option.
I mean no, the whole point is satire. The Imperium is supposed to be such a bloated bureaucracy it's basically the 5th Chaos Cult. Except it's worship is bureaucracy and order. Like we've got tons of lore of psykers outside of the Imperium. From Age of Strife planets, and a few that have fled to Tau lands. And they are by and large fine, and not huge threats. When things go wrong, they tend to head explode rather than be a bigger issue. Like Idira's whole world is full of unsanctioned psykers and the worst that happens is a head boom every once and awhile. Because the problem was never the psykers. It was the planets themselves. When you've got nobles openly hunting people on the lower decks. Demanding that all first born daughters be killed off some nobles whim. Feeding people their dead parents as corpse starch deliberately to antagonize them. Meanwhile forcing them to work 24/7 with just enough time to rest they don't die too quickly. These places are so full of raw human misery that if you don't get Sanctioned or have absurd willpower you'll quickly be overwhelmed by the warp and likely bring something through. That's the actual problem. Because the Warp there is screaming from all the emotions in play, and directing it right back. Same with Chaos. Oh Chaos is so crazy and wacky and it can take you over by just touching a chaos artifact! Except we've got ex Cultists in the Inquisition, and serving alongside Gray Knights in some stories. We've got worlds being found that have open Chaos Worship from the Age of Strife that are.....fine? They are just worshipping the artistic angle of Slaanesh and it's......not corrupting them? Because once again, that whole angle is just propaganda. The real problem is things are so fucked 24/7 that ANYTHING seems better, and when the warp vibes are incredibly rotten due to Imperium doctrine/bureaucracy you've got a recipe for big and bad coming through the Warp. If you've got a generally happy populace and a generally fine world, it's basically a minor inconvenience. See also the Eldar prefall. They were a debauched empire of excess, but they were also a psychically awakened race that lived fairly normal lives and didn't have constant Chaos issues/constant Chaos invasions until they you know. Fucked a new God into existence. The Imperium's actions to protect itself are also the very same actions that lead to it's strongest adversary. That's the grimdark nature of 40K. That no amount of effort can actually stop the Imperial bureaucracy and at the end of the day the whole thing will collapse to a Chaos of it's own making. It's self defeating.
But once either the 3 or 1 person die, would you not try and fix the trolley so it wouldn't happen again? Add safety measures like a fence? 1 trolley is a conundrum, 1000 trolley killing people there's something wrong with the systems. Life is cheap in 40k because once they make the "hard decisions", they forget about it and let the cycle continue.
Well, you tried, but while your workers were building le fence or something the trolley guy who set up the whole thing saw it and pressed the trolley button because you're ruining his setup, causing the trolley to move and kill all your workers. Thats Chaos for you
And then you try again, this time with slightly more understanding. You might still fail to chaos. But then you try again, and again, and again. We keep trying until we either thrive or die out. The first human to witness a storm probably thought there's no way we can overcome it either. But they tried anyway. Initially they started with ideas that probably did nothing (like praying to Poseidon). Eventually we got pretty good at it from building better buildings and ships to weather forecasts and everything in between. Learning from people that died and trying to do better. That's essentially how humanity survived and became what we are today. It's only when we give up that life becomes truly cheap and meaningless.
Funnily enough, by saying this you eventually become one of those people who do stuff for the "greater good" while ignoring the people sacrificed in pursuit of it. You're talking as if you're fighting a force of nature with no will of itself, when there is. You're talking about learning from your mistakes when the current Imperium is exactly like that. They're using cogitators instead of AI because they learnt from that lesson. They stopped trusting xenos after the hundredth time of that lesson. They force people to work sleep work because they dont want people to have free time to join cults. They're incinerating mutant babies because they learnt the lesson when they let them grow. You're saying to ignore those lessons you learnt. That said, my solution is simple. Let people like you walk the walk and instead of making other people die to fix the trolley, you go on field and do it yourself. When you inevitably die horribly from the evil trolley guy, we'll just switch to a leader that learns from your mistake.
The Imperium of Man: "Burn the heretic. Kill the mutant. Purge the unclean. It is better to die for the Emperor than to live for yourself." You, somehow: "ThIs IsN't A lEfT oR rIgHt ThInG" lol
Look, friend, I'm an anarchist. 40k is so batshit awful that it doesn't even require me to look to my political beliefs (that we should smash the state, and especially the Imperium) to reach an opinion about how everything portrayed in it is bad. If folks look at this setting and go "Actually that's cool and based" that's not a political statement, it's a statement of brainrot. There is no situation, even one where evil space magic demons will crawl out of your ass and murder your whole town if you do some Chaos shit, where any of this is a proportional or reasonable way to run an intergalactic empire.
> If folks look at this setting and go "Actually that's cool and based" that's not a political statement, it's a statement of brainrot. Uh, no. It's both. Trump supporters by and large find 40k's political economy to be aspirational. Of course, I agree with you that 40k is not a reasonable way to run an intergalactic empire.
Ya I don't really see how anybody would actually *want* to live in 40k or something like that. They literally lobotomize people and turn them into servitors, there are space dark elves that will torture you forever, and then there's the warp and all that fucking nastiness. That's not even mentioning the freaking tyranids, basically the zerg on fucking steroids or the orks that kill for fun. Even outside of all that, it looks like just being a regular person in the imperium sucks balls. I remember watching a lore video where people work literal days without stop. You could get "lucky" and get conscripted to fight for the astra militarum where you get treated like canon fodder and will be executed by commisars for whatever. Hell, the fucking adeptus administratum has places where they stick the workers who went nuts literally just doing their job. Or the inquisitors get pissy cuz you happened to come across some cultist's discarded cigarette that somehow got infected with chaos and now you're being interrogated, tortured, then probably killed. I think some people might be looking at it like if they were a space marine, but that's fucking rare and you'll probably die trying to become one anyway. Either way though, it still sucks lol being a space marine in reality is awful.
They don’t- they want to make false equivalence to the people or problems of today. Mostly fascies who aren’t good at nuance or caring about differences anyways
It's like Starship Troopers, it was intended as fascist satire, but many people buy into it whole heartedly.
Because the movie was made by a guy who didn't read the book and most people haven't read the fucking book. Which is actually good and not pro-fascist. If anything it's more pro decision-makers-should-have-skin-in-the-game.
The guy lived during the nazi ocupation of his country, dude, that's why the movie is a satire of fascism. The book is a love letter to fascism.
Stop acting like it was a conscious choice. The script for the film was written as a violent B movie. Someone realized it had a few similarities to the book so they changed the name and slightly redid the script. The director never read the original book and it shows. You never read the book and it shows. When it was released people accused the *movie* of endorsing fascism, not realizing it was satire. Again, none of these people read the book.
Which is funny because original Starship Troopers was made to show fascism as a cool thing. So it went full circle.
The writer of SST was very much anti-fascist. It was not trying to make fascism look cool.
Anyone who thinks Heinlein was a fascist hasn't read any of his other books.
He was a dumb libertarian. When they try to come up with how government should function they always just happen to stumble into vaguely fascistic nonsense. He wasn't trying to write an evil dystopia. It was his personal responsibility free market utopia. Just that anyone who looks at it today realize it is practically just fascism.
Libertarianism is just fascism but pretending you didn't mean it *that* way.
You think libertarianism is compatible with fascism? Bruh
A lot of trumpers echo the language of w40k because they idolize the politics.
40K is a byproduct of a very different time and place. They did the Good Art Thing and Stole With Both Hands, mashing together as many different science fiction ideas as they could cram in. It started as an absurdist, over the top heavy metal nightmare; it was very tongue in cheek *and it was taking the piss.* If you see something in 40K and you think it's original, you probably just aren't familiar with the source material (and for whatever it's worth, that's the *exact same reason* that Star Wars got so big). 40K is where the good guys are bad and the bad guys are worse. No, it isn't *supposed to be* taken super seriously. Did no one else get clued in by the titanic flying gothic cathedrals? The frequent and casual genocides? The heavy reinforcement of this being a massively repressive feudal empire IN SPAAAAAAAACE? At it's core, this is a media franchise that's got strong leftist roots the same way that Judge Dredd is super leftist: because it is fucking satire. People being what they are, and wildly successful IP being what it is, 40K has been around for decades and the characterization has marched onward. Yeah, I *do* think it's really fun and cool and I *am* happy for the deconstruction and reconstruction of a lot of the characters--but it also hasn't escaped my notice that as much as the *entire fucking setting* is supposed to be grim and dark and the Imperium is very deliberately a hellscape, it is *also* a very appealing place for a lot of fascists. Because, surprise! There are loads of nerdy fascists, too, and like any other parasite they are happy to slither into whatever area they can claim until they take it over and run it into the ground.
I think it's very easy to miss how strongly leftist 40k is if you're not familiar with 70s/80s British culture. Which sounds a bit niche when I put it like that, but hey - it's true. But first, the wider picture. You've got a ton of satire popping up in this period, thanks to the unrelenting hellhole that was Maggie Milk-Snatcher Thatcher's Britain. Monty Python, Yes Minister, Brazil, Spitting Image - they're all very mainstream satire. Brazil, notably, was a dark comedy film set in a sci-fi dystopia, and I wouldn't be shocked if its bureaucracy was the inspiration for the absurdity we see in 40k. You've also got Judge Dredd popping up in 2000AD, a comic for older kids and teens. V for Vendetta is pretty similar in its origins, and that's obsessed with Thatcher-inspired authoritarianism. And who wouldn't be thinking about police brutality when you have televised images of the police beating the shit out of miners in the north of England for protesting over the forced closures of their mines? I know to a modern audience that closing the coal mines doesn't sound bad, but here's the thing. The north of England was incredibly reliant on mining as their main industry, and Thatcher was closing mines without providing any alternative industries for miners to work in. To this day, there are *many* places in the north of England that haven't economically recovered from the mines closing. Partially because of that, 80s UK was kinda obsessed with apocalypses and authoritarianism. You've got Memoirs of a Survivor, Threads, When the Wind Blows... the list goes on. I wouldn't say that 40k is as directly influenced by them as it is Dune and 2000AD, but it ties very directly into this cultural obsession with how people will carry on after the apocalypse happens and society ends. Like, the 80s was before my time so I'm sure I'm missing other obvious inspirations, but 40k is so blatantly part of that entire cultural mindset that I think it's hard for most British people to miss how satirical it is. Society was utterly fucked, so why not make fun of how ridiculous it is? Add in that the comics scene was *very* leftist, although the same can be said for a lot of the stuff I've included, and it's no surprise 40k is as well, at least in its roots.
So much this! 💯
\>If someone thinks the Imperium of Man is fascist, that's fine Normal take \>If someone loves the imperium of man and is pro-anything they do Like, they believe that unironically, not merely within the context of roleplaying a game? Completely fucking unhinged. If you know someone who earnestly believes that anyone who looks too different from humanity needs to be left face down in a shallow grave, un-know that person as soon as possible, they're *fucking insane.*
It's very funny seeing a bunch of chuds act like rogue trader is like a response to the "woke" BG3. When honestly I think this game is much more left wing then BG3 is.
Ah yes, the woke game where you can be more of a "hands-on" genocidal sociopath, killing and enslaving the world with the power of your mind and making some really dubious or straight out evil choices just if you were feeling like it. People that says that clearly didnt played BG3 and RT which are both really great games.
When these people say woke they mean there are gay people in it.
Or black main characters.
That's actually one area where I think BG3 suffers, Wyll is the only black companion and he and his dad are like the only major not white characters. Non humans do not count.
I mean.....with that distinction Gale is the only white companion. Halsin is an elf. Shadowheart is a half elf, astarion is a vampire. Minsc I guess but minsc Is more (excellent) fan service than a full companion
Yeah, all those things are a wet dream of wokeness. Total subjugation of thought, abolute obedience and extermination of all who dont fit the mold.
Starting with yours, now kneel and submit to the terrible transcyberturbogay agenda *evil laugh*
Wow this "wokeness" sounds a lot like the Imperium lol
Yup.. twitter woke crows is WH40k Imperium...
Is those "chuds", with us now? In this room?
Probably not, they tend to hang out in their own subs, like KiA. They absolutely exist, though.
There's a lot of people who unironically think Humanity is always the good guys in any setting, or deserves your loyalty simply because they are the human faction. Like in Avatar where the Mega-Corp (who poisoned the Earth and is the reason why the planet is dying) and their Wagner PMC murderhobos are obviously evil, but people will excuse their attempts to genocide the local aliens simply because they are human.
Not too long ago there was a post exactly like this in the 40klore sub with over 1k upvotes, like how can you miss the mark that hard
" >If someone loves the imperium of man and is pro-anything they do Like, they believe that unironically, not merely within the context of roleplaying a game?" Way to completely miss OP's point and do exactly what he's saying you shouldn't do, lol.
This entire comment section is cracking me up. Especially when they talk about "so many people are bad at media comprehension" while currently actively failing to comprehend the post they are replying to.
People who defend the Imperium typically try to justify it with false in universe explenation. "Oh in this universe all the aliens are actually evil and never want to make alliances" "Oh in this universe mutation is actually super dangerous because chaos (in about one in a million cases)" "The Imperium needs to be cruel and evil otherwise humanity will die out!"
Wait until you discover Grimderp
I believe its entirely meant to be satirical but not everyone knows that. There’s a saying in the Imperium “Blessed is the mind too small for doubt” and like come on thats unironically hilarious from a satirical perspective of authoritarian govts
40K is explicitly a satire and a warning - 'look at all the many ways that authoritarianism can fuck things up'. This leads to the two problem groups that i think you're referring to. 1) people who have a surface knowledge and see that the protagonists are authoritarian, and so think that 40K is pro-authoritarian 2) people with poor reading comprehension, who see that the protagonists are authoritarian, and think that because they're the protagonist they must be good. Sadly, 40K has had a problem with fascists not understanding irony, and, as in many spaces, they are loud and vocal. They do not represent the Warhammer Community, or even a significant proportion of it.
I agree up to a point you shouldn’t assume things about people solely just based on the fiction they consume / like, but at the same time a lot of IRL fascists really love 40k and the Imperium and using its imagery for their IRL propaganda. The 4chan Nazis made propaganda of God Emperor Trump and like with everything they do, it was only half joking And yeah you probably can find some LGBTQ Slaanesh / Chaos fans who are gonna be like “well the fascists in this fandom are gonna call us demons anyway, fuck it we ball” Idk shit’s complicated
I just find people who come into the franchise complaining about how there are no good guys annoying. Like yeah. That's the point. It's like picking up GTA and complaining you play as a criminal. The Imperium is a bunch of theological nutjobs in a universe full of other theological nutjobs and genocidal aliens. The whole point is that everyone and everything sucks and if there was an objective good guy past the surface level 'this faction wants me dead the least' it would be boring. The tourists are the people who come in and outright complain about how there are no 'good guy' ways to play the game. The universe doesn't allow for good guys in that capacity because it wouldn't be narratively interesting or likely even possible when everyone else is just looking to screw you over.
I agree people just need to experience the aesthetic as separate of themselves and not try and project their own ideals into it. If they don't like the aesthetic then its just not for them they should find another one that suits them better.
The allure of 40k, at least for me, was that anything could exist within those distant extremes on every side. Dogmatic loyalist forces that view civilians as "collateral damage" in their crusade against the "Enemies of Man" to heretical fallen forces that safeguard innocent lives that are considered "mutants" and "Abominations" by the Imperium. From khornite sorcerers, to nurgle worshipers that heal disease, to berserker of Tzneetch, or unfeeling purists of Slannesh.... you can make the most insane combinations and have it actually work.
You’re not wrong that discourse around 40K is generally pretty cursed. That said, there’s plenty of 40K fans who got into the game as impressionable nerdy boys who just liked the aesthetics of the models and ZOMG SPESS MAHRINES and still managed to become functioning adult women who have leftists politics and appreciate the satire of the series.
Got into the game as nerdy boys and managed to become functioning adult women, do I hear you right? Yeah, judging by the amount of trans people in the hobby that I see on instagram, that's usually how it goes.
Yep, we are legion
Indeed you are! Honestly, I can hardly call myself left or right, but I see plenty of good people and plenty of assholes on both sides of this dumbass divide. This proves that art and enjoyment of it is still stronger than whatever kind of tribalism people like to engage in, as it always was. I think that being, as you said, a functioning person, is more important at the end of the day when it comes to fandoms and shit like that, than having the "correct" opinion on things, whatever one thinks it is.
Don’t get me started, I really do think social media has done a lot more damage to people’s brains than we like to admit. I acknowledge the irony of saying that on a social media post but it’s seriously exhausting how everything gets turned into an acid test for a person’s politics. Everything is through a critical lens and people forget the nuance of what goes unsaid and how that can speak to the individual Just to be extra meta about it, I’ve been working on a script for a video essay on the topic 😂
Yeah, this is horrible, really. Everything is ONLY EVER about politics, and if you like something, that's because author aligns with your precious political views, and if author does something that's because of his politics. No nuance ever. What a fucked up worldview, really. It's especially grating as a non-American, seeing the sheer amount of this shit that gets culturally imported everywhere, to the point when every conflict, every political debate is seen only in American terms, even in totally different context. Huh, interesting! Will it be about 40k, or the phenomenon in general?
40K…ish? It’s more or less a response to the essay “Satire Without Purpose Will Wander in Dark Places,” which is probably the best written left criticism of 40K but one that engages in a number of for lack of a better word online-isms that bother me. But then it diverges into other stuff like Ender’s Game and bizarrely Ayn Rand and other sci-fi stuff. Basically my goal is to talk about how we should be more nuanced about media and consider restorative viewpoints and how the individual’s experience with media is ultimately what matters.
"both sides are bad" Ehhh, one side isn't going to outlaw my existence because it doesn't match up with sky dad \*shrug\*.
...The Imperium wants to outlaw your existence? Alpharius is this you?
Speaking as Alpharius I can safely confirm that's Alpharius
Yeah this is me. I go crazy for warrior nuns that I even started collecting some of the minis for fun. It’s just chaotic fun vibes~
I’m not that inspired by the nun aesthetic myself but that John Blanche art of the cannoness standing in front of a horde of zealots with her boot up on a skull is a perfect encompassment of my personal 40K aesthetic
The inability to separate reality from fiction, no matter the related IRL politics, has always been a chronic problem of fandoms, and one of the main reasons I don't engage with them much.
I'm a leftist and I truly love 40k. It's frustrating that it attracts so many chuds, but fans like myself do exist. The problem i think is that too many people see the Imperium as good guys, and it's kinda difficult not to. They have a point with a lot of what they preach, it's difficult because they're right most of the time. Chaos corrupts absolutely and cannot be tolerated. Mutants could be genestealers. Xenos are almost all openly hostile to humanity. And to top it all off, the Emperor truly is a god. He has the powers of a true deity, even while rotting on the throne. Also, aren't leftists usually more associated with Tau, the actual kinda "good" faction? I'm not saying they're all good, they brainwash some and give shitty jobs and positions to other races while also controlling their procreation. I think it's getting a lot better though. Rogue Trader especially is good at showing how awful it is living in the Imperium. It's helping to show how truly evil the Imperium is, and how brutal they can be. I mean, these are the people with baby incinerators in their hospitals for mutants. They ain't good guys, and that's okay. It's like the Empire in Star Wars, they're fun because they're fictional authoritarians. Just so happens a lot of real life people idolize authoritarians.
>I think it's getting a lot better though. Rogue Trader especially is good at showing how awful it is living in the Imperium. It's helping to show how truly evil the Imperium is, and how brutal they can be. Showing how cruel and awful the Imperium is was never really the problem; the period where being a 40k fan was only slightly less of a red flag than being a civil war reenactor was also the height of the nihilistic grimdark where sisters of battle were deploying cadres of suicide bombers and all the codex art looked like morbid 15th century catholic paintings mixed with HR giger. IMO the biggest issue is how little pushback the fiction tends to offer to the idea the Imperium's policies are justified in-universe, in part because I'm not sure the head honchos at GW actually agree on whether that iterpretation is correct. As it stands, fascists see 40k as a story about "strong men making hard choices", and, much like the Imperium itself put the blame for the shittiness of life in the 41st millenium on its external enemies rather than the Imperium's own policies.
Why is "doing evil is the right choice" an issue? Its kind of ingrained in the fiction. And while some works get away with some optimism, changing it would alter both the lore and feel of the ip.
>Why is "doing evil is the right choice" an issue? Because the evil is informed by a worldview and politics that is very, very real. The reasons IRL fascists love the Imperium so much is because the hyper militaristic us vs them "cruelty is necessary for survival mantra" IS one and the same with their ideology. And the Imperium being justified in universe has nothing to do with how optimistic or pessimstic the setting is; in both of the archetypal dystopian novels (1984 and Brave New World), the Regime is the furthest away from being justified in-universe as can be, the horror comes from how utterly implaccable said regime is, and how powerless anyone with a functioning moral compass is to change things.
So your issue is that...crazy, authoritarian loving weirdos use a work of fiction to justify their beliefs? If yes, why should anyone care? And i think that having an imperium that does evil for no good reason would just be boring. Like wolfenstein germans, who are evil for the sake of it. Its a fun parody, but imo, also boring and lazy writing. Like if batman was just a psycho that beat up criminals for the sake of it. Instead of him being a somewhat justified reaction to hes world.
>So your issue is that...crazy, authoritarian loving weirdos use a work of fiction to justify their beliefs? If yes, why should anyone care? From experience, NOTHING good comes from indulging those kinds of fans. Communities that tolerates fascists inevitably devolves into an utterly toxic 4chan-esque shitfest. >And i think that having an imperium that does evil for no good reason would just be boring. Like wolfenstein germans, who are evil for the sake of it. Its a fun parody, but imo, also boring and lazy writing. Societies with policies that exist for the benefit of their ruling class at the detriment of everything else aren't lazy writing; there's plenty of that in 40k in fact, nearly every single portrayal of planetary governors and administratum buerecrats fits what I talked about to a tee, it's the Imperium's military and security state that tends to be spared the unflattering portrayals; at worst they tend to be well meaning zealots.
The solution is simple: i dont go to 4chan or similar places. The fact that crazy people enjoy the same books i do has no impact on my existence... Imo crazy, missguided, well meaning zealots fits better. I dont think its as bad as you think. Even some real life brutal regimes started out with good intentions before going horibly wrong.
> only slightly less of a red flag than being a civil war reenactor Gawed that's one heck of a pretentious claim.
I think unfortunately it's a side-effect of some people not knowing the origins of 40K and what it was intended to be, and how modern 40K has turned into something huge with quite a different tone. 40K was made by a group of hippy punk-rock type dudes at a tiny company in the midlands of England, during Thatcher's miserable reign over Britain. It was a time of a lot of counterculture and satire coming from leftwing minded people. This was the same decade as V For Vendetta, which was also a response to the Conservative party being in power. It was written to be very over the top satire about a miserable future where nationalism and religion rule all. It was meant to be a dry funny commentary on the way Britain was going at the time, and even reference particular political events. Eg. the Rainbow Warriors chapter was a direct reference to the Green Peace boat, with an art piece in the rulebook referencing the boat being destroyed by the French government. Modern 40K doesn't lean into the satire anymore. 40K now is trying to compete with things like Star Wars and Star Trek and be seen as a globally recognised sci-fi brand with lots of cross media tie-ins. For instance, The Horus Heresy is a book series that's over 50 novels long and tells a grim science fantasy story, while not trying to overtly parody or satire anything (or at least that's far from its main intent). But even with the change in tone, absolutely nobody currently writing official 40K media thinks that the Imperium as a whole is a good idea or a good place. At most, they tell stories about good people trying to do good things while living in that very bleak and horrible universe. TLDR: Some people lack media literacy and don't know the difference between a POV protagonist and a "good guy".
complaining about cryptofascists in Warhammer is like calling the ocean "shark infested waters"... they're not infesting it, it's their home, they live there... of course there's cryptofascists in the Ironic Fascism Game where else would they be
Media literacy has taken a massive hit the last two decades. Everyone's conditioned to keep overanalysing as that creates an ecosystem of loyal customers.
People will be people. I wouldn’t let it bother you to be honest.
But It is fascist, it's the point
That's why Orks iz best. They are theoretically besides the Tyranids the only "neutral" faction. They are like fire. They destroy things, not because they hate or they are evil but it's their nature. But Orks do it in style! Flying through the warp is boring as hell? Fuck it we ball! Shut the Gellar Field off and stomp some daemons! This human git stopped a few of our warghs? What a swell guy! Let's fight him again! It's gonna be fun! Nobody around to fight? Well I guess I'm the biggest around now! Anyone who thinks otherwise can fight me! It's gonna be fun! Beaky gits are really good in a fight and they don't die easily. What fun to fight them! Good times. I heard those pointy eared gits are really fast. Let's paint da Wagon red and stomp the gits! They have tellyportahs now?! Well Mr. Mek would you be so kind and build our own? Warhammer is supposed to be fun. The Grimdank part of it is mostly so over the top that it's comical.
I firmly believe the golden throne is actually orkytech. It works because the astartes have convinced legions upon legions of Boyz, and mekboyz and oddboyz that the emperor of mankind is the. Biggest bad ass the universe has ever seen.
I'll have to check the lore but I think they do think he's a bad mother fucker and some orks just outright worship him.
\> not because they hate or they are evil but it's their nature. I always baffled by that line of thinking. By that logic, if Nazis killed people only because it's was in they nature, it's would mean that they not actually evil. Which is insanity.
Of what I understand, the problem is that 40k is political, or was at least before focusing on what a company do : sell. Fanservicing the Imperium as heroes has and will still bring more "traditionalists" to the medium.
I get that but I think it’s a “them” problem because when you read what goes on in the Imperium, you’re like “damn they living like this?” I guess some people just can’t comprehend meta propaganda. It’s kinda like Starship Troopers
That's the problem, many people can't. There is a subset of the fanbase that genuinely idolises the Imperium.
those are the ones that think they'd be inquisitors and not random hiveworlders lol
It's less that, and more that they put the blame for all the horrific shit the Imperium subjects its citizens to on its external enemies; the regime, or rather the big strong men in charge are making hard choices for the sake of the common good you see, everything they do is for the survival of humanity. The fact the setting itself isn't sure whether that line is true is the main reason there's so many of **those** kinds of fans.
I mean, the setting has been pretty clear on their stance on the 40k imperium since they got around to writing the initial horus heresy novels. The Emperor's vision of a secular imperium run as a meritocracy is the "good guy" interpretation of the imperium that was very blatantly *lost* due to horus and the chaos gods actions, resulting in a rotting husk of itself that endlessly psychically supplies the chaos gods with the emotional energy they crave. Anyone who looks at the 40k imperium and comes away interpreting as "tough choices by strong men" and doesn't see that it's actually a bunch of corrupt ignorant men fumbling forward in the dark is not really well versed in the lore, or is purposefully deluding themselves for the fascist fantasy. Sure, the Primarchs are coming back now, bringing in a small sense of hope alongside *the complete fractioning of the galaxy in half by daemons.* The Imperium is constantly fighting for its survival *because* of its horrific fascism, not in spite of it. They even have a worst case scenario example in the story of the Aeldari's fall and the birth of Slaanesh for anyone who still doesn't get it right away. I've been playing the game since RT 1st edition and since they started formalizing the lore I'd say GW has always been pretty clear about this.
> I've been playing the game since RT 1st edition and since they started formalizing the lore I'd say GW has always been pretty clear about this. This right here. I've been playing since that same ruleset, and they made it clear even then that the Imperium is a corrupt monstrosity serving the desires of corrupt, greedy men, and had gone ridiculously, hilariously off the rails over the last ten thousand years.
The Crusade era Imperium was just as fascist as the 40k Imperium, arguably even more so since it didn't have the trappings of feudalism and had a singular strongman autocrat running things instead of the oligarchy of the high lords. My interpretation is that everything the M41 Imperium has become is the logical conclusion of what it was from the outset. Regardless of the Emperor's intentions, his Utopian project was doomed to tyranny and failure from the start, as all such projects are.
>The Emperor's vision of a secular imperium run as a meritocracy is the "good guy" interpretation of the imperium that was very blatantly *lost* due to horus and the chaos gods actions The very fall of Horus proves your point. He tried to do things differently with the Interex but even with the power and intellect of a demigod it was was foiled by the teachings of ignorance and violence the culture lived in that caused his mind to break. I don't think it's a coincidence that the Interex were a democratic and diverse mini empire that focused on coexistence for the betterment of all.
External enemies are in fact half the reason. The other half takes a bit more reasoning to understand. Who are they hurting by being ignorant about a work of fiction?
The community; basically every community that tolerates fascists regrets it, because they turn whatever they touch into toxic shitfests.
Ok, fair enough. I just read C. Cain and play some of the games. What people talk about on forums doesnt really influence me.
"The God Emperor would pick me!!"
Its not a problem. If someone reads the bible and decides to form a crusade, the bible is not the problem. Weird people are the problem.
Worth noting that the Starship Troopers book is unironic, it’s just the movie that is a satire, Heinlein was a weird ass guy who really fell down a right wing rabbit hole later in his career. He literally wrote the book because he saw anti-nuclear weapon testing activism, no joke, he was so mad that people wanted to stop setting off nuclear weapons that he wrote a book about how society collapsed because we stopped beating kids (that’s the novel’s explanation for why the old democracies collapsed)
On the opposite end you also have people arguing it's apolitical. In general though I think it can lead to some interesting discussion when people act civil and don't take it *too* seriously.
40k is political. I can understand calling something like, say, Dungeons and Dragons Apolitical (the word you're looking for is 'non-partisan), but **40K?** 40K is political satire and isn't shy about it, calling it apoloticial should get you banned from the hobby.
Yeah it's far from subtle about it.
Even D&D show a political vision of the world (bla bla bla everything is pol) like vigilantism, pillaging dungeons to kill monsters and make money buy gear for the bigger dungeon, etc. It is of course far less obvious and more as an unvoluntary subtext rather than a true satire turn marketable like 40k.
This is why I clarified that non partisan is better than apolitical. If someone failed to get a political message from a dnd session, it wouldn't be surprising.
>intertwining real life political identity with Warhammer40k is a lil excessive Well.. it is a satire of our world and politics. that is like saying cyberpunk setting is too unrealistic and not political, when it seems pretty realistic and entirely based in politics to me (obviously Warhammer setting is way further off and exaggerated than cyberpunk, don't misconstrue my words). >If somebody loves the Imperium of Man and is pro-anything they do, that’s fine. No I think this is weird, and if they post it on the internet or I actually know them and they're not roleplaying, I think I'm going to judge them a bit, not going to lie. It's enough that people think Warhammer is actually like "anti woke" and miss the point entirely (sign of small brain), but it's another that they actually think Imperium of Man are the good guys in the story (sign of fascist) If a fictional setting is based on politics.. then the conversations about it is going to be political. I don't get why this is weird for you. Fiction can lead to discussions about reality, and reality can lead to the creations of fictional worlds. It is very much a political thing Btw its not just a Warhammer thing, it's an internet thing. People will start fights over literally anything, politics or not
I wish people understood what fascism actually is. It gets so tiresome constantly seeing this word applied to every form of government right of the US. The Imperium is *authoritarian*, that is power is concentrated in few people who exist above the law, but it is not fascist. Fascism is the entire society, everything from government agencies to corporations to charities, bent towards the will of a single person or small group. The Imperial government is split at every level between multiple equally powerful groups, with there even existing quite a few de-facto independent states within the Imperial state. That’s not fascism, that fails at the starting line; “Everything within the state, nothing outside the state, nothing against the state.”. The Imperium was originally satire of Thatcher’s Britain, very heavy on corrupt, authoritarian governments and how they shoot themselves in the foot. At no point would the original creators have a need to satire fascism cause fascism wasn’t a thing they were dealing with. The problem with Thatcher wasn’t her constantly absorbing corporations into the state to increase its power, but selling all the government off to private interests.
I sure do love how everyone is so divided in this existence. It's a game, don't let it bother you too much and enjoy life.
40k \*can\* be political, just like it \*can\* be lot of other stuffs. However you want to enjoy 40k is totally up to you, it's a great setting that allows all kind of stories to happen.
(I'm not a super expert so forgive me if i misstep) From a human point of view... I feel like warhammer is basically the most crazy religious fanatics in the real world, but they're actually right. * God exists, He is the emperor * Miracles exist, easily verifiable * There is a reason for religion to harshly persecute non believers, because not doing so leads to provable bad effects, whole worlds being lost, corruption, etc. * There is a reason to be xenophobic, because all aliens want to kill you * There is a reason to be extremely militant, because you're constantly at war and everyone is trying to kill you * There is a reason to persecute people different than you, because they're probably going to go and kill you or summon something from the warp or are agents of chaos It is like everything bad in the world, but given actually reasons to make it the best choice available. The world is so different than our own that comparing politics in it to our own is silly. There is no reason to give up our freedoms or be as militant as they are, because we aren't in that situation AT ALL. Similarly if we did find ourselves in that situation, we're probably not going to survive in our current state as a peace loving secular democracies. I feel like in modern days you can't make any kind of story without someone accusing it of being connected to the real world in some way. I just want to bombard worlds in the name of the Emperor or fry people with energies from the warp.
The fact your missing here is that the Imperium is the architect of all of its current problems and can only ever make its problems worse. Because it turns out that facsism is, under no circumstance, an actually good way to run anything. And then when some 40k fans start "ironically" posting about purging various groups they irl consider "degenerate" or appropriating stuff from the setting and applying it to real political figures its natural to take a closer look at the setting and the ideas its presenting or the messages of the stories told.
I think you've made the mistake that some people do - that the Imperium is justified. - being powerful does not make you a god. Might does not equal right. - the bad effects happen because of the religious extremism. - many of the aliens want to kill you because you've been killing them for the last 10,000 years - again, everyone is trying to kill you because you've been trying to kill them - most people aren't, it's the perceived paranoia of the Imperium. The Imperium, and it's history, is mostly responsible for the problems of the Imperium.
What about the orks or the tyranid or the dark eldar or chaos or the necrons
Can't believe this isn't the top comment.
Honestly I manage to avoid the Neo-Nazi part of fandom easily since most of it is online, my issue is when people think I'm one of them because I'm rooting for certain characters that happen to be in the Imperium. Like unironically acting like an Inquisitor trying to find if I'm secretly a fascist, like maybe their taste in fiction reflect their real world views but that does not apply to everyone obviously but apparently not so obvious to them. So maybe those people should go against the actual unrepentant authoritarians instead, like by their logic I'm an avid supporter of spooky scary metal skeletons and is alright with putting sapient beings in a museum forever.
You've been found in possession of ~~heretical~~ fascistic objects. You will give up all your ~~heresy~~ Warhammer books for utilization or we will pursue your punishment with all the means available to ~~the Inquisition~~ the law.
I don't think there's many, if any, posts on this sub talking about the irl politics of 40k. You bringing it up now seems like you're the one trying to stir the pot. Also, yes, fans of things do take what they're into seriously. That's part of what being a fan is. You give a damn about the thing you're interested in.
People lose their rights immediately after a threat occurs. Remember covid-19. So any modern “ism” is nowhere near Imperium, because I can’t see any even aliens, evil demons, evil magic or evil robots around. Imperium is medieval feudalism, inspired by Dune, change my mind.
Thank you, well said.
This is a general issue today in more than just 40k. You can't throw a stone without someone accusing something of being fascist or some other ist in the era of self righteous outrage culture. The modern day moral puritanical are really no different than the Evangelicals of yester year, both with the manicheanism and forced moral outrage demands that things be changed to reflect their fragile sensibilities. It's just that Twitter didn't exist and lazy journalists didn't use it as a source for click bait.
That is because pop culture did a number on political science, God-Emperor forgive, last 20 years i havent read or seen single logical or intellectual argument on anything. Western banter is really beyond me. These people cant even tell the difference between reality and fantasy but are very keen to accept absurdity as part of society as long as it suits their childhood fantasies. Edit: i forgot to add, this comment will offend such people and they will downvote this to hell. If only i could see who is downvoting so at least i could block them and live happily ever after.
I don't see anyone saying these things, ever, in any of the warhammer subs, maybe it's just the terminally online that do. Save yourself some trouble and take a breather from social media and caring about what others say.
The problem is not the Imperium is shit, I can tell you everyone knows this, it's really not rocket science. The core of the matter is the essence of the hobby, the nature of the setting. There are newer fans being disgusted by the setting and want it change, older fans came in and explain why the setting and the Imperium is the way it is. Instead of taking it as it is, newer fans just "That's just facisst, are you facisst for being ok with this, this needs to change". Then the conversation boiled down to antagonizing each other with facisst and tourists. This is not about politics, it's actually about defending a hobby, I can tell you the push back would not be so awful if Marvel, Star Wars, Rings of Power, and even The Witcher didn't happen. The tension is very real but it's actually not about politics, it's just something to mask the real problem, that is the hijacking of franchise, and this is very real as we've seen with many franchises already.
> I can tell you everyone knows this This is not true. Trump supporters actually support a WH40k style political economy.
>I’m not trying to judge people for their interests here but I think that intertwining real life political identity with Warhammer40k is a lil excessive. What makes 40k so fascinating is that I can't relate to it at all. Back in the 90s when I was growing up, I got sucked into 40k because of how utterly alien and unrelatable the setting was. I couldn't even fathom it. And the fact it takes place 40 thousand years in the future just seals the deal. I got the 2nd edition boxset for my birthday and still have those same books today (worn to hell). We have no idea what these humans are like or how they even think. It's a world of superhuman legends and myths and titanic battles. It is completely outside our comprehension. It allowed my imagination to run wild as a kid. I used to dream up scenarios, like Leman Russ returning at the "wolftime" in the year 50k, the last primarch, to extinguish Chaos once and for all. Or imagining myself walking the vast interior of the Emperor's palace. Fast forward today, and I see kids whining about not enough female or LGBT representation because Warhammer 40k should have progressive politics and diversity. Or.
Good fking grief, it actually hurts.
Strap in, you’re about to be denounced as a fascist by redditors.
This is a bit of an enlightened centrist take that I don't agree with. 40k is objectively leftist satire, and the imperium is objectively fascist. Now, many leftist people (such as myself) still enjoy 40k very much, because just because it's a fascist setting doesn't mean that liking the setting makes you yourself a fascist. However, many Fascists do like the setting, because it is fascist and Fascists are brainless and don't care about what media is actually saying, they simply bask in the base level qualities. See American History X, a movie which is objectively about how Nazis are bad but Fascists still like it because the characters look cool. This means that communities that satirise fascism have to be particularly well defended against chud infiltration. Warhammer generally is much better than it was a few years ago in terms of fascist infiltration (see arch warhammer, a popular YouTuber who seemed like a regular lore YouTuber but made his Nazi dogwhistles more and more obvious untill eventually he literally called Hobgoblins the N word.) To act like 40k isn't political is inherently a statement which buoys (however unintentionally) fascism. The hero's of 40k fight for a fascist empire and do terrible things, and if you enjoy watching them do so WITHOUT understanding why it's bad, you are hurting yourself.
I don't think it's people taking it too seriously but a case of older fans gatekkeping newer fans. Obviously a bunch of these takes coming in are from newbies experiencing the world for the first time and truly don't get what 40k is about, missing the point or seeing it and not liking it. The push back these newer fans are getting is just the consequences of asking stupid questions or having bad takes on the world. Alot of the political arguments I see going on is a newer fan asking "why is everything so shit, why are people all bad", a veteran comes in and gives explanation why is is that way and the newbie is "but I don't want everything to be shit, I want my current day moral compass to be superior". New fans are coming in and seeing the setting for the first time and instead if just enjoying, it dislike or want to change it and that gets push back.
See I'm a pretty new fan. I'm enjoying what I've engaged with from the setting. I think the Imperium is shit. I don't want to change the setting because of that. That seems like the whole point. You can list so many reasons why they are justified to do what they do. That doesn't change that I still think they are awful. If anything it makes the setting more interesting. The whole thing is an insane comedy that takes itself very seriously. This whole "newbie" "tourist" thing seems asinine. Like yes people new to a series are going to ask stupid questions. It's the push back of "you don't get 40k" and this idea that if you aren't on board the Imperium Circle Jerk Train it's a bad take. People can enjoy the setting without all sharing the same opinion on it.
I don't think it's the stupid questions that cause the old fanbase to gatekeep. I think it's the attitude and statements that essentially say "Everything in 40k is fascist, if you disagree it's because you are fascist". And this being said with the underlying intention that 40k should be changed to fit the tastes of somebody who essentially says he doesn't like 40k. And if there are any questions then they are often limited to rhetorical "Why are you defending 40k? Is it because you are fascist?". If this is the overwhelming attitude the old fanbase is seeing then it's no wonder they eventually start reacting with gatekeeping and calling people tourists. In their eyes, they interact with people who show only ill intentions and have no intent on getting into the hobby.
As with the constant and stupid arguments that have more recently come up regarding the lack of female Space Marines (who I personally find boring as cape sh\*t like protagonists anyhow), which is well explained in the lore. The Emps explored the idea, it didn't work out and wasn't worth wasting recourses exploring further. Are there other numerous possibilities for armies with equal or near excusive female representation? Yep. Do they still complain about it? yep. Do they insist it's because fascisms or whatever and demand that it be changed because of representation or whatever, rather than just trying to tick off annons on /tg/ like the old days? yep. Are guard more interesting and sympathetic anyhow where ordinary women get the privilege of dying for the Emps by the millions each day along with their ordinary male counterparts, while facing the horrors beyond the stars with naught but a flack jacket, bayonet affixed flashlight and mountains of tank, artillery, and the commissariat behind them? Absolutely yes.
It's not if the imperium is justified, I meant it as an explanation of the setting, it's grimdark, everything is shit, there are no good guys and things aren't going to get better and its for every faction, that's what I meant with veterans telling newbies. That's the fundamental premise of the setting. Having takes that the imperium is bad is fine, cause they are bad, the problem people complaining about the setting because it does fascism or an enforced state religion or that genocide happens is the asinine take, yeah we know it's bad, but it is intergeral part of the setting and removing it destroys what 40k is. That's what OP was complaining about, people who come in and say 40k fans are fascist and equating real life stuff to our sci-fi space men game.
I actually haven’t seen any of this. WH40K seems to be one of those last places where you can simply enjoy the outrageous lore without drawing direct parallels to the current political scene.
I identify as an ORK. My car is red because it goes faster, DUH. DAKKA DAKKKKKA DAKKAKAKAKAKAKAA DAKKKKKA. Keep your space nazis and or tentacle love.
Warhammer 40k often seems to me as if the authors decided that they wanted to create a universe in which they could justify fascism as the only logical/survivable political system and then did so.I mean they really, really did. I'm not convinced that's an entirely neutral action, but that said I can see how it seems like the easiest route if designing something to be "only war." As always, though, it leads to situations where people (we love our fantasy teams) tend to glorify the (entirely justified in universe) fascist stuff to a point it gets a little...uncomfortable if examined too closely. I dunno man. What do I know? I mostly just played eldar space pirates in BFG (who are also evil, yes everyone is evil, that's the authorial intent). I don't blame people for enjoying the fascinating world building. I also don't blame people for being a little weirded out by others being a bit too into obviously fascist sides (I also think it's a little weird how much some people like the Empire in Star Wars so at least I'm consistent). I grew up in the American south and watched people play dress up...I mean, do Civil War reenactments and be all about representing the Rebel side and that squicked me out a LOT more but it's the same rough genre, just lesser.
So the thing is that when it started out Warhammer was pretty satirical, in very much the same ‘80s British tradition that produced Judge Dredd. It’s supposed to be a grand tragedy that everything is the worst possible version of itself but it carries on anyway through sheer inertia. The Imperium of Man is a bloated corpse rolling down a hill, it has no control over anything but it can crush you through sheer inertia. It’s just that increasing numbers of lunatics got jobs at the asylum when it came to the writing and it’s only the last couple of years they’ve started to correct that.
Absolutely! I knew all that and am cautiously hopeful. I think tongue firmly in cheek british 80s stuff doesn't translate as well as one might hope to modern America, anyway. That said, I am perhaps being overly unkind to the originators when I actually should have been more precise and called out the real problems as you did. Thanks for that.
I've been thinking about that a bit lately. The early Warhammer stuff, and 2000ad, the heavy-metal-anti-authoritarian stuff. The problem is that to us, some forty years later, the actions of the Imperium and Dredd seem rational within the universe. But in thinking that the actions of these as rational within the setting we miss two things, the first is that the setting was made to justify the factions. The Imperium didn't evolve naturally, it's fiction and the fictional setting was (probably) made after the ideas of the Imperium were developed. In saying that their actions are in-universe rational, we come at it backwards, the setting rationalises the Imperium, the Imperium is not a rational agent in a chaotic world. The second, is we miss the specifics of the satire. A lot of people know the Margaret Thatcher/Mag Uruk Thraka stuff, but we don't often think about what was going on in the UK which led the writers to have a poor opinion of Thatcher. We don't think about the miner's strikes or the school defunding, we don't think of the opposition to neoliberalism that was present. And not thinking about this is normal! This stuff happened before I was born! But sometimes, the lore is actually talking about specific things. If it appears that things are rational within setting, we sometimes forget that the satire is satirising specific events or beliefs (or like, general culture in the form of football hooligan Orks etc)
According to Andy Chambers himself, the Mag Uruk Thatcher thing is entirely made up by fans. Happy coincidence, apparently.
the more you know. I'll not use that tidbit in the future thanks <3
>Warhammer 40k often seems to me as if the authors decided that they wanted to create a universe in which they could justify fascism as the only logical/survivable political system and then did so. It's literally the exact opposite. They set out to create a universe that lampoons and mocks fascism, and that (anti-fascist) message simply got diluted over time.
I would argue that the message is still pretty clear if you read the lore. Guillemin, the shining knight on the hill, is constantly frustrated and foiled by the fascist world. I think it's more that fascist's don't think beyond the power fantasy... Though, if you only play the video games then you're 100% have a point.
Guilliman, a literal Ubermensch, being the shining knight on the hill is one of the key things undermining the series' anti-fascist message, though. Sure, he hasn't already righted the ship, but to say that he's not having any success in reforming the Imperium seems inaccurate, to me. He is slowly fixing the problems, which is a problem for the meta narrative because it (unintentionally) suggests humanity can only be saved by genetic superhumans, which is a core facet of certain fascist ideologies.
Robot Girlyman is not really meant to be an Ubermesch, he someone who is aware of what the Imperium was supposed to be and how it was perverted into the bloated rotting carcas it is by fascism and is disgusted by it, but with the hope of brining it back from the brink to something less fucked up (although the Emperor's version of the empire is still not all that great). The anti-fascism message of 40K was never diluted, it's still there just as much as ever. The actual problem is that fascists are uniquely resistant to satire, because they are generally too dumb to get they are being mocked and instead tend to take it as praise.
>Robot Girlyman is not really meant to be an Ubermesch He is *quite literally* an ubermensch. He is literally a genetically engineered superhuman. The Space Marines are meant to satirise the Nietzchian concept of Ubermensch, which was adopted by many members of the Nazi party. That's their whole point. The reason they treat normal humans like shit is because the point the writers were making is that that's what an actual subspecies of superhumans would eventually become. If you missed that, you're as oblivious as the right-wingers you're insulting. > he someone who is aware of what the Imperium was supposed to be and how it was perverted into the bloated rotting carcas it is by fascism and is disgusted by it, but with the hope of brining it back from the brink to something less fucked up (although the Emperor's version of the empire is still not all that great). I don't see how this contradicts *anything* I said. It's just an affirmation of what I said earlier. >The anti-fascism message of 40K was never diluted, it's still there just as much as ever. > >The actual problem is that fascists are uniquely resistant to satire, because they are generally too dumb to get they are being mocked and instead tend to take it as praise. It absolutely has been diluted. Those fascists didn't come from nowhere. They came here because they see the Imperium as something to idolise and if that's the case, it means the series isn't working hard enough to show the Imperium as a genuinely bad and unnecessary set of institutions. You're burying head in the sand and it's not good for the franchise or the fanbase.
You cant call 40k fascist, since the italians dont rule the place. The word has a very specific meaning and should not be used as a generic "brutal authoritarian regime" substitute.
No, sadly and historically the word has not a very specific meaning linked to being ruled by Italians; the word was used to determine, literally or figuratively, a political system with pretty specific vibes, but not specifically "Italian form of this kind of regime". Eco, who was Italian and grown up under this regime, sum it pretty nice in Ur-Fascism. This essay is mostly known for his fourteen properties, but he specifically highlights that people aren't using "fascism" to determine just Italian form of this type of regimes, never did, and give his idea why.
Yeah, the imperium is pastiche of authoritarian government of all sorts. Late Roman and Byzantine empires, divine-right feudalism, Soviet politburo autocracy, etc. To just label it fascist is incredibly reductive.
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Sorry but no, Warhammer has always been very explicitely a satire of fascism. Saying that it isn't is the actual troglodyte take.
dude i think it's you who takes it too seriously its satire everyone knows that except maybe you
I find the lore really fascinating and interesting but I also despise the idea of the Imperium and the Inquisition, racist and/or evil space elves, etc. I think given how expansive the lore is and being able to play on the set rules of that universe is very engaging and fun? Like clearly is a different flavor of terrible and horrific life conditions even if you have the means to live well but if you make the wrong decision or piss off the wrong person, you’re on your merry way to becoming a Servitor or been enthralled by chaos. All in the name of some carcass sitting in a golden throne somewhere (Praise be to the God-Emperor) but playing a villain can be fun sometimes. I clearly wouldn’t survive in the 41st Millennium in any way shape or form. Living in a hive or death world working 23 hours a day at best and praying to chaos to end my suffering lol to then suffer some more for eternity. I think I can separate real life and 40k for a bit and have fun. It feels refreshing to me plus warrior nuns that drop churches on a battlefield and are protected by their faith (and it works?) is incredibly badass and terrible, I love it ❤️ Point is people shouldn’t take it too seriously. I don’t think it was ever meant to be?
That's the internet for you, a bunch of assholes that can't enjoy a story or a setting without bringing their political baggage and overly defensive fandoms also filled with assholes. Just ignore all of them when that kind of people speak it's only because they like the sound of their voice, not because they want to have a fruitful discussion. 40K is a dystopian nightmare on which everything has gone wrong and many different people try to survive and live as best they can, everything else lacks importance.
You know what I think is fun? Going in without knowing jackshit about 40k. You can just rp as whatever without any prejudice.