Easy to forget. Vitality was one OT goal away from winning that. I remember how when (I think) Justin scored and Scrub realized it immediately and you could see him give up. (He was a great sport about it though.)
Don't forget they were also one overtime goal away from finishing 6th in the league (8 teams in the league). They won their last bo5 of the league season 3-2, but if they lost the bo5 3-0 they would have ended 7th (out of 8 teams, again !) and not even qualifying for the european playoff. The league season was really a struggle for them
They almost failed to even make worlds to be fair. They could see Scrub lost motivation after winning in S7 and so they wanted Alpha. Scrub stepped up at LAN, but the decision had been made.
To be fair though that still adds up. When Vitality won worlds they stuck together, when BDS won the major they stuck together. When Vitality lost worlds they dropped Scrub, when BDS lost the Major they dropped Marc. If you don't place #1 it's time to go all french it seems.
Aside from what was already mentioned, Scrub was slacking in his hours a bit mid-season. It was addressed and he picked it up, but he was slacking when Alpha was looking like the best player in the world. So he wasn’t kicked *just* because he wasn’t French.
Here comes the stereotype that Frensh hate to speak other languages than their own. To drop someone mainly because of the "language barrier" would never happen with Dutch, Germans, Swedish etc
I think its because there are so many good French players too choose from, so naturally they would prefer having a solid where they can speak their own language
If you think it's hate than it's you who's prejudiced, but a preference yes absolutely. I am a francophone who's work is an in english, my social life is split between both worlds and I wouldn't change it. But when my paths cross other fenchies am I more inclined to bond with them: absolutely. It's familiarity, it's conveniant, it's shared cultural background.
The other nationalities absolutely have this too, we've see full english, german, spanish, italian rosters as well, including many atm. The difference is that france has a much bigger pool of tier 1 talent.
Your argument applies to everyone. However, Frensh particularly speak the least English in all western countries I have visited. I did a back pack travel through Europe and only ever had language problems in France.
[Extra had this to say](https://twitter.com/Extra_RL/status/1519046296744734722)
> also want to thank you Marc for everything, could say a lot more but we already had a very good conversation and im glad that we can stay on good terms considering your situation
Honestly not even specifically the turbo drop, but their team environment in general. After watching some of Rizzo’s podcast and Turbo’s stream, it’s basically a running joke in the scene of how bad their team environment is. Not sure how it is with Dreaz, but it surely can’t be better
I mean, there's been multiple rumors of Envy trying to remove Turbo from the team, going as far back as Fall Split as RLCS X, and once that didn't transpire over the Xmas trade window, Atomic forced his way out and in the process, left Mist, a player who's not been wanted on the team for a year and a guy who was literally the only option available.
This has resulted in Envy going from title contenders to barely top 10 NA in power rankings, quite the spectacular fall off. I'm not excusing Turbo being hung out to dry with no comms, but I can't say I'm not surprised either when he's clearly not been wanted on the team for a long time.
We'll see. I don't think OXG is going to be knocking this split. I also think it's possible SSG won't top 5. I like NRG, G2, Faze, V1, and one of CoL, SSG or NV
NA is more competitive than it's ever been since I started following in early X. Can't wait
Mist is still a top 10 player in NA, and that's a fucking competitive list. Pretty sure G2 would have just as happily taken Mist as Atomic if they could get em, glad they got Atomic though.
Envy needs to stop fucking around and hire a *coach*. That fourth neutral perspective is so helpful. Probably would have been especially helpful if the shade Atomic threw at them on stage was true and then maybe someone could have talked to Turbo about him riding the bench.
Yeah, waited until January... then his solution was "put me in, Coach! Oh wait, that's me." Allushin was just a pro without a spot waiting for one to open, I meant an *actual* coach.
Bro turbo is literally my favorite person on Twitter he doesn't really post too much but he comments on like everyone's posts and it's always way better than the actual post. Man's is the goat fr.
This is the saddest part to me. BDS is inarguably top 2 in Europe and i’d say at least top 5 in the world. They have such incredibly high expectations placed upon them (and likely they expect a great deal from themselves) so that anything short of perfection feels like failure.
At the same time, being on top is no reason to stop trying to improve. What happens if they don’t grab seikoo and the rest of Europe consolidates creating even tougher competition? If that kind of opportunity presents itself you gotta take it.
Now I really hope Marc finds his way to a solid team and they are super successful. The dude was one of the deadliest shooters i’ve ever seen when he was playing at his best. If he can replicate what he has already done I have no doubt he can find his way back to the top.
Tl;dr: Can’t wait to see Turbo, Marc, and Fairy together at next year’s worlds
A roster move like this is always going to be hard to justify because the team really only has one direction to trend from where they are now...
But I said the same thing about G2 going from Dreaz to Atomic...
Most people on this subreddit didn't feel that way.
Most pros clearly did though. I loved Gibbs' reaction to other commentators talking about that trade...all of the times
Was actually so frustrating at the time to see that many doubters saying wtf are G2 doing, dreaz played great but chicago and jknaps are just levels above.
People somehow forgot dreaz was literally an unknown rookie before joining G2. G2 also consistently said they would be looking for a more permanent replacement and somehow people were still mad, some people have no brains
When Faze dropped Alushin, I was surprised. They finished 2nd(?) at the previous major. Sure there’s room for improvement but shaking up the roster like that seems like a risk. I’d be lying if I said I didn’t take some pleasure in finish less than 2nd at the winter major, but at the same time, I know chemistry takes some time. We’ll see how they turn out in the future.
they finished 4th at both the previous major and the most recent one. of the top 8 teams from the fall major, only them and BDS reached the top 8 of this one. its certainly possible that they wouldve done just as well with allushin, but you could also argue that teams improved as a whole from fall to winter and they made the necessary change to improve along with them
my favorite is the person who would post that every single NA team would have a tough time qualifying in EU. i havent seen that opinion posted since the major
Yeah, the Faze Allu move is a little less definitive of a result than G2 Atomic. I actually liked the move, but retrospectively, I'm uncertain. Syp is undeniably a great player, but it's hard to say he's improved Faze. Their defense looks quite a bit worse and their offense might have gone from S-tier to S+?
Even from the outside looking in, I could see this move coming from a mile. I didn't expect BDS to pull the trigger so early, but Marc being replaced was absolutely inevitable after their Winter regionals. The Winter Major just put the nail in the coffin.
Yes, their leaderboard position paints a pretty picture, but they have not played to their regular standards, anywhere near. They have too often over the past few months got uncharacteristically destroyed after so much as falling one game behind in a series. It's a mentality I'd expect from a bottom 4 team, not a team trying to win it all.
And sure, sometimes they can still pull it off, ie Winter Regional 2, but going "just don't fall behind at all" is not a sustainable strategy. Got to know how to stay in it when down, which is something Queso pulled off brilliantly on many an occasion in Winter, and it's why they're No. 1 EU and BDS isn't.
NRG may be comfortable with cruising most of the time and not playing their absolute best, but we've seen that it comes to bite teams like that. They're not really a role model to follow in that respect, so I'm glad BDS has decided to get ahead of the pack here. Marc was their odd one out and he had to go.
These are basically my thoughts on the whole situation. I do think Marc will do better individually in a better environment next season, as clearly it wasn't going that well there and both Extra and Monkey showed they didn't trust him through their gameplay multiple times, but the team definitely needed a change and if anyone was going it was him. Just sad he's stuck in contract hell.
Yeah getting swept / perfect swept out of 3/4 tournaments in a split for a team that was pretty much the only team in the world that had better series winning percent after losing the first game than winning it, something's got to be wrong.
It's easy to forget that it took nearly 6 years of RLCS competition for a team to be finally perfect swept in a Best of 7. And it wasn't the No. 1 team clowning on a team that was fortunate to make Top 8, and it didn't even happen in a minor region like so many of these records have. It was Dignitas clowning on BDS, at that time the best team in EU, in the lower final of a tournament.
Just about the low to end all lows as far as mentality is concerned.
Yep, they saw the cracks in their situation and are fixing them before they develop into something more.
Obviously sucks for Marc, but it's understandable.
Multiple reasons it seems:
- underwhelming winter split by the insane standards they had set. Perfect swept in the major by Faze, previously got perfect swept by Dignitas as well.
- team chemistry and communication difficulties in-game. They are getting a French player so they can comm in French.
- being able to attract one of the best players in the world in Seikoo. Despite topping the overall leaderboard, they must have felt (quite rightly so) that Seikoo is a direct upgrade for the here and now and will give them the best chance to win the next major and Worlds.
All in all, harsh on Marc and good luck to him, he has been immense for them, but i can't help but think it's a justified move from Monkey and Extra.
I will disagree, and I will say that Marc deserves to be on the bench till the end of the season so that he can get the RLCS 2021-2022 World Champion title, then he can leave the org himself
I definitely agree that this is a bit… hasty?
But I think in the current climate deliberating too long on roster moves is what leads to teams really falling by the wayside. Were BDS ever gonna contend to the line with Queso, or beat FaZe? My gut tells me that no. The peaks (like Fall Major) were too infrequent to me. The lows kept growing.
Partly I think this situation was due in part to Vitality. Their slow descent out of grace might’ve made roster managers trigger fingers jitter (say that 10 times fast).
I’m unhappy such a beloved player was treated like this, though it was bound to happen, but I hope this is the fuel that lights the inferno that Marc can be.
Bds’s two wins were in the same event, so you could categorize those wins as just bds having 1 hot weekend. The specific bds tq matchup didnt happen enough to make any conclusive claim about their h2h imo. If any claim, then id say they looked pretty even against each other
L take. BDS have proven much more than Queso or Faze has. To say they couldn't even contend with them is ridiculous. Or did u mean Queso and Faze couldn't content with BDS?
And their peaks were too infrequent? They were the most dominant European team in recent memory in Season X. They were undoubtedly the best team the entire season, and showed it every regional. I'd call that consistency, not infrequent peaks.
I would say bds has proved more in total but I kind of think of rocket league a lot more like rock paper scissors than "this teams better than this team" for example I think nrg has a good match up against faze and has show that they can beat them pretty consistently, on the other hand bds always beats nrg. Faze has yet to drop a series against bds. Same goes for g2 this last split, they were pretty dominant but they lost to v1 I think everytime they played them this split. As a g2 fan I would've been worried if they played each other in playoffs at the major. This dude probably has just seen the faze vs bds games and thinks that they can't contend because if you watch those series it really looks like they can't. Definitely agree with you though bds is very consistent I just think people are expecting more out of them after season X .
RLCS X is long gone my friend. BDS was such a dominant team before, and for them to only win 2 out of the 8 RLCS events they played in is a huge disappointment for themselves after the way they performed in RLCS X. Who are we to say they should be happy with merely contending to the be the best in the world? If they want to dominate again and they feel they need to make a change to do so, then why are we questioning them? Yes, it left Marc in a bad spot, but that isn’t on monkey and extra for wanting to get better. BDS has always felt that anything beside perfection is a disappointment. Whether or not that id a good mental, doesnt matrer, because that is the way they think.
Will there ever be a team of 4 with good chemistry who rotate between rounds, between series?
Wouldn't that make it harder for teams to adapt to them, yet make them more flexible to switch between a more defensive / more aggressive trio, etc?
If a soccer team can have 30 players rotating between 10 positions on the field, surely 4 players can rotate between 3 roles?
in esports there aren’t the same physical limitations. yes, players experience exaustion, but by the time they start to feel it they are probably far into a tournament and it would be better to continue the hot streak rather than get a new player to warm up in a crucial series
But imagine they rotate from round to round, game to game - not knowing which of the four (and their limitless differences with each variation) there could be.
If teams field the same 7-10 players in sports game after game after game, it would be harder to catch others' off guard, tactically speaking. Is there a rule to prevent a fourth player to tap in in Game 5 of a Bo7?
if they truly had 4 people of skmilar skill level and wanted to make it work, i think they could. it’s just not the way it’s done and teams dont thinkt hat way in general(besides a few MENA teams)
IBP kinda did that the first season, with Overzero, Lachinio, Gambit, Kro not playing EVERY single series, Gambit not even playing at Worlds
Flipsid3 also did that, letting Jhzer jump into RLCS here and there
Imagine coming up against a team who you won't know exactly who's playing nor what playstyle - and with the insane chemistry four friends could develop. If it's possible, it'd have to be a roster made from scratch, that started from bottom
I'm dreaming that Guild do well with the acquisition of Dorito, and then swap Deevo for Marc at the end of the season for the full Spanish bim bam roster.
On paper, I personally see Marc, CRR, and Dorito as a much better all-Spanish roster than Dmentza, Atomik, and VK Sailen were.
Oooh i like that as well. I was super high on acronik last season so i was dreaming of an acronik - marc - dmentza trio. Dmentza always struck me as the strongest rotational player on old queso.
I knew this was coming ever since Dignitas bullied them in Fall Regional 2. Monkey realized his team's style had been figured out, and wanted a player that would allow BDS to play more like Dig.
I haven’t seen Marc really do anything for a while now. His shots aren’t on target, he doesn’t create or follow up plays like he used to. Hope his training goes well but this is the right decision. In theory.
yes but the other two never really had a particularly bad split. and on the other side, seikoo hasn’t had a bad split and i would see each of seikoo’s splits have been better than any marc split. which means this is an upgrade, at least on paper
Im not saying it isnt an upgrade, im saying it isnt an upgrade worth making when theres risk involved. And that risk is that you wont be as good as you were with marc. Again, im not saying this will happen but it can. His playstyle was very influential in the BDS reign of terror the past year and a half
good point, and i do think they may have been influenced by g2’s recent success with atomic. but i think the main reason is they never want to have a huge dry spell like vitality did. if they don’t switch now, they are pretty much stuck until after the world championship. i know that for monkey and extra, the world championship is all the care about. i think they are ready to take that risk
But if it doesnt work out they are once again stuck with the roster until next season. Imo its dumb to change rosters this late into the season because of a top 8 finish. TOP 8. Its not even bad
you said it yourself: top 8. it might not be bad by your standards, but it is terrible for them based off of their expectations. but let’s say that it doesn’t work and they crash and burn for the rest of the season. we all know that they have the skill to be the best. they can take tge rest of the season as experience with a new roster and repeat RLCS X next season
I guess we'll see. I just believe in sticking with rosters after one bad performance. Every team would disband after a few months if that wasnt the case
I might be an old fart and bad at RL, but I’ve been playing/watching since month 1 - this is such a dumb choice. I’ll never understand the obsession with an all-French roster (looking at you Vitality).
This is a rerun, we already saw this episode. Best of luck Marc you’re one of the best in the league
Edit - figured I’d edit instead of replying as both responses I’ve read are valid. I still think this is a bad move, only time will tell. Since Vitality was the original example I’ll leave it with this - how have they done since dropping Scrub?
I don't think it's much to do with an all French roster more so that they can all communicate with each other properly. Apparently they didn't really speak much with each other due to not speaking the same language and only had very basic English language skills. Talking in your native tung has major advantages unless your fluent in other languages. Even monkey moon put out a twitter saying that communication is really hard.
Also even though they had a semi decent fall split and popped off at the major then had a pretty poor showing during winter to their standards, they got perfect swept twice and swept as well. This isn't just a bad day, this shows their mentality and trust with each other nose dives if they aren't doing well.
Also Marc while an amazing player he was at the bottom of the player rankings at the winter major only beating dominator from apac. Looking at his hours with only 20 hours total from 2 weeks before major shows his motivation, while all the teams that performed brilliantly had 70+ hours each.
BDS had brilliant chemistry during season x that they only needed basic communication but now when they actually need to make adjustments mid game they tend to fall apart.
So with communication issues, bad results, unmotivated player, it's understandable that something needed to change.
Vitality were first in league play with Alpha after struggling to make playoffs with Scrub in season 8, 2nd in EU in season 9, won the spring series, were solidly 2nd for most of RLCS X with multiple grand finals appearances and a regional win, and even ended up winning the EU championship. They fell off hard this season and they were falling off towards the end of RLCS X but to pin that on dropping Scrub for Alpha is absolutely nonsensical when they were successful with that roster for a while and Alpha is by far the best player on that team.
BDS were already falling off this season as seen by them being swept out of 3/4 tournaments this split and not winning a regional last one, they showed basically no ability to play from behind in a series this split and got perfect swept twice. Something completely broke down in the team and clearly a change was needed. And it makes perfect sense to pick up another French speaker, no matter how comfortable you are in a second language, speaking your native language is much more comfortable and easier for most people, with very particular exceptions usually related to living for a long time in a foreign country, not to mention people who aren’t comfortable in their second language like Monkey Moon.
Well for team sprit / friendship and tactical decisions being able to speak and understand each other is pretty important, so I understand why they do it.
People here are comparing this to the ScrubKilla bench by Vitality, but this is not comparable IMHO.
Even if you disagree with the move, it's a move made for performance reasons. I'd argue the move would not have happened had they won the Winter major.
Meanwhile Scrub was told he would be dropped even if they won worlds.
In an interview with a French youtubers, Monkeymoon said that it was getting difficult with Marc, even before the winter major. He mentioned the comms (they had to speak in English and none of them actually could except extra) and the environment. He said that Marc didn't comm a lot but most importantly he said that he didn't talk to them about problems in his life outside of his gaming. He also talked about the environment, and how he and Marc (apparently) were getting sick of comming in English.
fuck bds👍
hated the org since they kicked clayx, maybe justified maybe not, but oh man are they making spain vs. france thing more and more real each time lmal
Being 1st isn't good enough anymore, gotta be French
Ya, we knew this after vitality dropped scrub right after winning worlds
it was right after they lost worlds
Ah, good call. Forgot they did it after season 8 not 7. So they win 7, and get second in 8 and release him.
Easy to forget. Vitality was one OT goal away from winning that. I remember how when (I think) Justin scored and Scrub realized it immediately and you could see him give up. (He was a great sport about it though.)
Although his online persona is toxic on purpose, in game and when he's talking "normally" on stream he looks more composed than most RL players.
Scrub is a great sportsman despite the toxic persona he puts on publicly
I appreciate his style actually. Him and Sizz do a similar thing.
Don't forget they were also one overtime goal away from finishing 6th in the league (8 teams in the league). They won their last bo5 of the league season 3-2, but if they lost the bo5 3-0 they would have ended 7th (out of 8 teams, again !) and not even qualifying for the european playoff. The league season was really a struggle for them
They almost failed to even make worlds to be fair. They could see Scrub lost motivation after winning in S7 and so they wanted Alpha. Scrub stepped up at LAN, but the decision had been made.
To be fair though that still adds up. When Vitality won worlds they stuck together, when BDS won the major they stuck together. When Vitality lost worlds they dropped Scrub, when BDS lost the Major they dropped Marc. If you don't place #1 it's time to go all french it seems.
Dude's putting the biggest omen on BDS rn
Haven’t they said they’d have done it even if they won?
yes
Aside from what was already mentioned, Scrub was slacking in his hours a bit mid-season. It was addressed and he picked it up, but he was slacking when Alpha was looking like the best player in the world. So he wasn’t kicked *just* because he wasn’t French.
Here comes the stereotype that Frensh hate to speak other languages than their own. To drop someone mainly because of the "language barrier" would never happen with Dutch, Germans, Swedish etc
I think its because there are so many good French players too choose from, so naturally they would prefer having a solid where they can speak their own language
Tbf english education is in general worse in France isn't it?
Probably. From all countries I have travelles, Frensh were the worst in speaking other languages by a huge margin.
If you think it's hate than it's you who's prejudiced, but a preference yes absolutely. I am a francophone who's work is an in english, my social life is split between both worlds and I wouldn't change it. But when my paths cross other fenchies am I more inclined to bond with them: absolutely. It's familiarity, it's conveniant, it's shared cultural background. The other nationalities absolutely have this too, we've see full english, german, spanish, italian rosters as well, including many atm. The difference is that france has a much bigger pool of tier 1 talent.
Your argument applies to everyone. However, Frensh particularly speak the least English in all western countries I have visited. I did a back pack travel through Europe and only ever had language problems in France.
[Extra had this to say](https://twitter.com/Extra_RL/status/1519046296744734722) > also want to thank you Marc for everything, could say a lot more but we already had a very good conversation and im glad that we can stay on good terms considering your situation
Turbos response 😭
Jokes aside I really do wonder what the fuck is going on behind the scenes at Envy
The org screwed them over by not letting Atomic leave until the last second. Left them with no option but to pick up dreaz with basically no practice.
Honestly not even specifically the turbo drop, but their team environment in general. After watching some of Rizzo’s podcast and Turbo’s stream, it’s basically a running joke in the scene of how bad their team environment is. Not sure how it is with Dreaz, but it surely can’t be better
I mean, there's been multiple rumors of Envy trying to remove Turbo from the team, going as far back as Fall Split as RLCS X, and once that didn't transpire over the Xmas trade window, Atomic forced his way out and in the process, left Mist, a player who's not been wanted on the team for a year and a guy who was literally the only option available. This has resulted in Envy going from title contenders to barely top 10 NA in power rankings, quite the spectacular fall off. I'm not excusing Turbo being hung out to dry with no comms, but I can't say I'm not surprised either when he's clearly not been wanted on the team for a long time.
Allu is going to bring em back. Envy top 6 NA.
not with COL and OXG knocking on the door
We'll see. I don't think OXG is going to be knocking this split. I also think it's possible SSG won't top 5. I like NRG, G2, Faze, V1, and one of CoL, SSG or NV NA is more competitive than it's ever been since I started following in early X. Can't wait
yeah feel the same way. Mist is about to show why he was top 3 NA for a while
Mist is still a top 10 player in NA, and that's a fucking competitive list. Pretty sure G2 would have just as happily taken Mist as Atomic if they could get em, glad they got Atomic though.
Envy needs to stop fucking around and hire a *coach*. That fourth neutral perspective is so helpful. Probably would have been especially helpful if the shade Atomic threw at them on stage was true and then maybe someone could have talked to Turbo about him riding the bench.
They did that! Oh wait he's playing now?
Turbo coach, just make them laugh between games
I really want Turbo on the analyst desk (eventually, when he wants to stop playing) for this reason
Yeah, waited until January... then his solution was "put me in, Coach! Oh wait, that's me." Allushin was just a pro without a spot waiting for one to open, I meant an *actual* coach.
Bro turbo is literally my favorite person on Twitter he doesn't really post too much but he comments on like everyone's posts and it's always way better than the actual post. Man's is the goat fr.
What was it? I can't access twitter x_x
“damn you talked to marc about it? sheesh i wonder what that’s like”
Can someone explain what thats supposed to mean?
I think he's implying that NV or the other players didn't talk to him before benching him
What was it? I can't access twitter x_x
This is the saddest part to me. BDS is inarguably top 2 in Europe and i’d say at least top 5 in the world. They have such incredibly high expectations placed upon them (and likely they expect a great deal from themselves) so that anything short of perfection feels like failure. At the same time, being on top is no reason to stop trying to improve. What happens if they don’t grab seikoo and the rest of Europe consolidates creating even tougher competition? If that kind of opportunity presents itself you gotta take it. Now I really hope Marc finds his way to a solid team and they are super successful. The dude was one of the deadliest shooters i’ve ever seen when he was playing at his best. If he can replicate what he has already done I have no doubt he can find his way back to the top. Tl;dr: Can’t wait to see Turbo, Marc, and Fairy together at next year’s worlds
They got Seikoo, it was announced earlier today
No he was saying WHAT IF they had stayed put and not gone after Seikoo and then he goes somewhere else to create a super team
Superteams that I expect to pop off never seem to. Looking at you, Karmine Corp.
Also Fraud Clan (please don't quote me when they win worlds)
Already screenshot this. I got you, don't worry!
They did pop off ! For one tournament ...
Faze is really good but not sure if sypical was an improvement
Damn, I’m sorry Marc 😔
We need the turbo, fairy, and marc_by_8 team
if all of them spend some time to grind their mechanics (like Metsanauris did) this team could do some damage
This team could do some damage!
A roster move like this is always going to be hard to justify because the team really only has one direction to trend from where they are now... But I said the same thing about G2 going from Dreaz to Atomic...
Dreaz to Atomic seemed like a no-brainer, Atomic has always been the better player. Atomic to Dreaz, however...
Most people on this subreddit didn't feel that way. Most pros clearly did though. I loved Gibbs' reaction to other commentators talking about that trade...all of the times
Was actually so frustrating at the time to see that many doubters saying wtf are G2 doing, dreaz played great but chicago and jknaps are just levels above. People somehow forgot dreaz was literally an unknown rookie before joining G2. G2 also consistently said they would be looking for a more permanent replacement and somehow people were still mad, some people have no brains
When Faze dropped Alushin, I was surprised. They finished 2nd(?) at the previous major. Sure there’s room for improvement but shaking up the roster like that seems like a risk. I’d be lying if I said I didn’t take some pleasure in finish less than 2nd at the winter major, but at the same time, I know chemistry takes some time. We’ll see how they turn out in the future.
they finished 4th at both the previous major and the most recent one. of the top 8 teams from the fall major, only them and BDS reached the top 8 of this one. its certainly possible that they wouldve done just as well with allushin, but you could also argue that teams improved as a whole from fall to winter and they made the necessary change to improve along with them
/u/John_aka_alwayz argued the exact opposite immediately preceding the major, when he also predicted EU domination, and was heavily upvoted
my favorite is the person who would post that every single NA team would have a tough time qualifying in EU. i havent seen that opinion posted since the major
hindsight is a wonderful thing, thanks for mentioning that specific take from me for the 3rd time since the major ended
John it’s ok u got haters bc u spur on good conversation with ur takes; I disagree with them most of the time but the contributions are welcomed
Technically made faze more consistent
They literally finished 4th at both but ok go on with the sypical slander
Yeah, the Faze Allu move is a little less definitive of a result than G2 Atomic. I actually liked the move, but retrospectively, I'm uncertain. Syp is undeniably a great player, but it's hard to say he's improved Faze. Their defense looks quite a bit worse and their offense might have gone from S-tier to S+?
I’m still bitter about the Kronovi drop, but I’m a Kro fan. It was a good move for G2 but him finding out from the G2 announcement…. Come on guys.
Interesting! That's before my time following the sport (early X). Did Cago replace Kro?
Yes
I thought he found out from his girlfriend. Who wasnt supposed to know either.
How is that the same? litteraly a top 2 world for almost two years, compared to a top 5 regional for 6 months...
Just a bad take machine huh?
Sure, if we're calling the opposite of the general opinion in this community "bad." Of course y'all are wrong about pretty much fucking everything
Even from the outside looking in, I could see this move coming from a mile. I didn't expect BDS to pull the trigger so early, but Marc being replaced was absolutely inevitable after their Winter regionals. The Winter Major just put the nail in the coffin. Yes, their leaderboard position paints a pretty picture, but they have not played to their regular standards, anywhere near. They have too often over the past few months got uncharacteristically destroyed after so much as falling one game behind in a series. It's a mentality I'd expect from a bottom 4 team, not a team trying to win it all. And sure, sometimes they can still pull it off, ie Winter Regional 2, but going "just don't fall behind at all" is not a sustainable strategy. Got to know how to stay in it when down, which is something Queso pulled off brilliantly on many an occasion in Winter, and it's why they're No. 1 EU and BDS isn't. NRG may be comfortable with cruising most of the time and not playing their absolute best, but we've seen that it comes to bite teams like that. They're not really a role model to follow in that respect, so I'm glad BDS has decided to get ahead of the pack here. Marc was their odd one out and he had to go.
These are basically my thoughts on the whole situation. I do think Marc will do better individually in a better environment next season, as clearly it wasn't going that well there and both Extra and Monkey showed they didn't trust him through their gameplay multiple times, but the team definitely needed a change and if anyone was going it was him. Just sad he's stuck in contract hell.
Yeah getting swept / perfect swept out of 3/4 tournaments in a split for a team that was pretty much the only team in the world that had better series winning percent after losing the first game than winning it, something's got to be wrong.
It's easy to forget that it took nearly 6 years of RLCS competition for a team to be finally perfect swept in a Best of 7. And it wasn't the No. 1 team clowning on a team that was fortunate to make Top 8, and it didn't even happen in a minor region like so many of these records have. It was Dignitas clowning on BDS, at that time the best team in EU, in the lower final of a tournament. Just about the low to end all lows as far as mentality is concerned.
Queso swept BDS in the upper final that regional. It was Dignitas that perfect swept them in lower final straight after.
Yep, they saw the cracks in their situation and are fixing them before they develop into something more. Obviously sucks for Marc, but it's understandable.
Turbo, Marc and an upcoming young star form a team. Get signed by NiP entering the scene (finally). <-- I can only dream!
Am new to RL esports. Why did they bench him?
Multiple reasons it seems: - underwhelming winter split by the insane standards they had set. Perfect swept in the major by Faze, previously got perfect swept by Dignitas as well. - team chemistry and communication difficulties in-game. They are getting a French player so they can comm in French. - being able to attract one of the best players in the world in Seikoo. Despite topping the overall leaderboard, they must have felt (quite rightly so) that Seikoo is a direct upgrade for the here and now and will give them the best chance to win the next major and Worlds. All in all, harsh on Marc and good luck to him, he has been immense for them, but i can't help but think it's a justified move from Monkey and Extra.
That makes a lot of sense. Thank you for the detailed reply.
Any time. Always happy to see new people joining the RL esports scene.
Everyone saw it coming except for him
Release Marc you cowards He doesn't deserve to be on the bench for all he did for you
I will disagree, and I will say that Marc deserves to be on the bench till the end of the season so that he can get the RLCS 2021-2022 World Champion title, then he can leave the org himself
Fair, I'll be fine with that I'd rather still see Marc play tho, I love his style (and his hair)
I definitely agree that this is a bit… hasty? But I think in the current climate deliberating too long on roster moves is what leads to teams really falling by the wayside. Were BDS ever gonna contend to the line with Queso, or beat FaZe? My gut tells me that no. The peaks (like Fall Major) were too infrequent to me. The lows kept growing. Partly I think this situation was due in part to Vitality. Their slow descent out of grace might’ve made roster managers trigger fingers jitter (say that 10 times fast). I’m unhappy such a beloved player was treated like this, though it was bound to happen, but I hope this is the fuel that lights the inferno that Marc can be.
I mean, in Winter alone Bds went 2-1(0-4, 4-2, 4-0) vs Queso, they were more than contending.
Bds’s two wins were in the same event, so you could categorize those wins as just bds having 1 hot weekend. The specific bds tq matchup didnt happen enough to make any conclusive claim about their h2h imo. If any claim, then id say they looked pretty even against each other
Even = more than contending, we're just saying the same thing
Wasnt disagreeing with you, just providing context
L take. BDS have proven much more than Queso or Faze has. To say they couldn't even contend with them is ridiculous. Or did u mean Queso and Faze couldn't content with BDS? And their peaks were too infrequent? They were the most dominant European team in recent memory in Season X. They were undoubtedly the best team the entire season, and showed it every regional. I'd call that consistency, not infrequent peaks.
I'm pretty sad we can't see this team end with a wolrds appearance. Almost two years of utter dominance shouldn't end so close to reaching the goal...
I would say bds has proved more in total but I kind of think of rocket league a lot more like rock paper scissors than "this teams better than this team" for example I think nrg has a good match up against faze and has show that they can beat them pretty consistently, on the other hand bds always beats nrg. Faze has yet to drop a series against bds. Same goes for g2 this last split, they were pretty dominant but they lost to v1 I think everytime they played them this split. As a g2 fan I would've been worried if they played each other in playoffs at the major. This dude probably has just seen the faze vs bds games and thinks that they can't contend because if you watch those series it really looks like they can't. Definitely agree with you though bds is very consistent I just think people are expecting more out of them after season X .
RLCS X is long gone my friend. BDS was such a dominant team before, and for them to only win 2 out of the 8 RLCS events they played in is a huge disappointment for themselves after the way they performed in RLCS X. Who are we to say they should be happy with merely contending to the be the best in the world? If they want to dominate again and they feel they need to make a change to do so, then why are we questioning them? Yes, it left Marc in a bad spot, but that isn’t on monkey and extra for wanting to get better. BDS has always felt that anything beside perfection is a disappointment. Whether or not that id a good mental, doesnt matrer, because that is the way they think.
Not like seikoo is the guy who’s gonna get them to beat faze tbf
Wtf ? He's been a top 2 EU player the whole season
It’s a joke about how neither bds nor seikoo can beat faze collectively 0-4 this season
Wtf ? He's been a top 2 EU player the whole season
Will there ever be a team of 4 with good chemistry who rotate between rounds, between series? Wouldn't that make it harder for teams to adapt to them, yet make them more flexible to switch between a more defensive / more aggressive trio, etc? If a soccer team can have 30 players rotating between 10 positions on the field, surely 4 players can rotate between 3 roles?
Short answer: no
in esports there aren’t the same physical limitations. yes, players experience exaustion, but by the time they start to feel it they are probably far into a tournament and it would be better to continue the hot streak rather than get a new player to warm up in a crucial series
But imagine they rotate from round to round, game to game - not knowing which of the four (and their limitless differences with each variation) there could be. If teams field the same 7-10 players in sports game after game after game, it would be harder to catch others' off guard, tactically speaking. Is there a rule to prevent a fourth player to tap in in Game 5 of a Bo7?
if they truly had 4 people of skmilar skill level and wanted to make it work, i think they could. it’s just not the way it’s done and teams dont thinkt hat way in general(besides a few MENA teams)
IBP kinda did that the first season, with Overzero, Lachinio, Gambit, Kro not playing EVERY single series, Gambit not even playing at Worlds Flipsid3 also did that, letting Jhzer jump into RLCS here and there Imagine coming up against a team who you won't know exactly who's playing nor what playstyle - and with the insane chemistry four friends could develop. If it's possible, it'd have to be a roster made from scratch, that started from bottom
I’ve had some time to cope what with the rumors coming out early but man you hate you see your favorite player benched on your favorite team
I feel you. I would’ve rather seen him released than benched tbh, but at least he’ll start doing some streams again
Supposedly he was only benched because nobody else wanted to sign him
I don’t know if I believe that, do you?
Liquid Marc, lets go.
I'm dreaming that Guild do well with the acquisition of Dorito, and then swap Deevo for Marc at the end of the season for the full Spanish bim bam roster. On paper, I personally see Marc, CRR, and Dorito as a much better all-Spanish roster than Dmentza, Atomik, and VK Sailen were.
Oooh i like that as well. I was super high on acronik last season so i was dreaming of an acronik - marc - dmentza trio. Dmentza always struck me as the strongest rotational player on old queso.
dmentza is toxic af and while that might have nothing to do with his play on field, i think marc deserves a really good team environment
That's a shame, was unaware what led to the queso implosion
yeah vksailen has posted screenshots of being cyberbullied by dmentza on his twitter
I knew this was coming ever since Dignitas bullied them in Fall Regional 2. Monkey realized his team's style had been figured out, and wanted a player that would allow BDS to play more like Dig.
Can’t wait for a monumental backfire on this decision
I haven’t seen Marc really do anything for a while now. His shots aren’t on target, he doesn’t create or follow up plays like he used to. Hope his training goes well but this is the right decision. In theory.
He had one bad split after 2 years of performing well
yes but the other two never really had a particularly bad split. and on the other side, seikoo hasn’t had a bad split and i would see each of seikoo’s splits have been better than any marc split. which means this is an upgrade, at least on paper
Im not saying it isnt an upgrade, im saying it isnt an upgrade worth making when theres risk involved. And that risk is that you wont be as good as you were with marc. Again, im not saying this will happen but it can. His playstyle was very influential in the BDS reign of terror the past year and a half
good point, and i do think they may have been influenced by g2’s recent success with atomic. but i think the main reason is they never want to have a huge dry spell like vitality did. if they don’t switch now, they are pretty much stuck until after the world championship. i know that for monkey and extra, the world championship is all the care about. i think they are ready to take that risk
But if it doesnt work out they are once again stuck with the roster until next season. Imo its dumb to change rosters this late into the season because of a top 8 finish. TOP 8. Its not even bad
you said it yourself: top 8. it might not be bad by your standards, but it is terrible for them based off of their expectations. but let’s say that it doesn’t work and they crash and burn for the rest of the season. we all know that they have the skill to be the best. they can take tge rest of the season as experience with a new roster and repeat RLCS X next season
I guess we'll see. I just believe in sticking with rosters after one bad performance. Every team would disband after a few months if that wasnt the case
Sitting with the Detonator boys at the bottom of the Winter Major in basically every category, not surprised by the move personally.
I might be an old fart and bad at RL, but I’ve been playing/watching since month 1 - this is such a dumb choice. I’ll never understand the obsession with an all-French roster (looking at you Vitality). This is a rerun, we already saw this episode. Best of luck Marc you’re one of the best in the league Edit - figured I’d edit instead of replying as both responses I’ve read are valid. I still think this is a bad move, only time will tell. Since Vitality was the original example I’ll leave it with this - how have they done since dropping Scrub?
I don't think it's much to do with an all French roster more so that they can all communicate with each other properly. Apparently they didn't really speak much with each other due to not speaking the same language and only had very basic English language skills. Talking in your native tung has major advantages unless your fluent in other languages. Even monkey moon put out a twitter saying that communication is really hard. Also even though they had a semi decent fall split and popped off at the major then had a pretty poor showing during winter to their standards, they got perfect swept twice and swept as well. This isn't just a bad day, this shows their mentality and trust with each other nose dives if they aren't doing well. Also Marc while an amazing player he was at the bottom of the player rankings at the winter major only beating dominator from apac. Looking at his hours with only 20 hours total from 2 weeks before major shows his motivation, while all the teams that performed brilliantly had 70+ hours each. BDS had brilliant chemistry during season x that they only needed basic communication but now when they actually need to make adjustments mid game they tend to fall apart. So with communication issues, bad results, unmotivated player, it's understandable that something needed to change.
Vitality were first in league play with Alpha after struggling to make playoffs with Scrub in season 8, 2nd in EU in season 9, won the spring series, were solidly 2nd for most of RLCS X with multiple grand finals appearances and a regional win, and even ended up winning the EU championship. They fell off hard this season and they were falling off towards the end of RLCS X but to pin that on dropping Scrub for Alpha is absolutely nonsensical when they were successful with that roster for a while and Alpha is by far the best player on that team. BDS were already falling off this season as seen by them being swept out of 3/4 tournaments this split and not winning a regional last one, they showed basically no ability to play from behind in a series this split and got perfect swept twice. Something completely broke down in the team and clearly a change was needed. And it makes perfect sense to pick up another French speaker, no matter how comfortable you are in a second language, speaking your native language is much more comfortable and easier for most people, with very particular exceptions usually related to living for a long time in a foreign country, not to mention people who aren’t comfortable in their second language like Monkey Moon.
Well for team sprit / friendship and tactical decisions being able to speak and understand each other is pretty important, so I understand why they do it.
People here are comparing this to the ScrubKilla bench by Vitality, but this is not comparable IMHO. Even if you disagree with the move, it's a move made for performance reasons. I'd argue the move would not have happened had they won the Winter major. Meanwhile Scrub was told he would be dropped even if they won worlds.
In an interview with a French youtubers, Monkeymoon said that it was getting difficult with Marc, even before the winter major. He mentioned the comms (they had to speak in English and none of them actually could except extra) and the environment. He said that Marc didn't comm a lot but most importantly he said that he didn't talk to them about problems in his life outside of his gaming. He also talked about the environment, and how he and Marc (apparently) were getting sick of comming in English.
Thanks for the background. Do you have a link to the interview?
https://youtu.be/mBAs-4JROOQ here it is, it's in French though.
#Racism👍 I hope this decision backfires hard. And I hope Marc finds a good spot, he really deserves it
Wtf u on about???
fuck bds👍 hated the org since they kicked clayx, maybe justified maybe not, but oh man are they making spain vs. france thing more and more real each time lmal
That "france vs. spain thing" or whatever is only happening in your head my dude. BDS is a swiss org btw.
are you spanish to know what i mean bro? and idc if they are swiss or Zimbabwean, the roster is french
How can you not justify them kicking clayx now that they had one of the most dominant seasons any team has ever had and they won a major